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Segways Roll Over Chicago

lpangelrob2 writes "It looks like someone in Chicago finally found a use for Dean Kamen's Segways. The Chicago Sun Times is reporting that a three hour tour of Chicago's lakefront will be guided by Segways traveling on Chicago's sidewalks at 5mph. The cost of the tour is $65, and an instructional class and helmet is provided -- just in case."

58 of 286 comments (clear)

  1. From the just in case link... by thebra · · Score: 5, Funny

    "ABC7's Jim Wieder reports supervisors aren't happy to hear the suspect got away."

    This is confusing on many levels. First, how did a person on a Segway out run the police? Second, how many people do you see on a Segway? Third, why did some one buy a Segway?

    Disclaimer: These questions do not require a response as I understand that people on foot can escape police but any witty reponse (see funny) would be appreciated. Thanks-

    1. Re:From the just in case link... by AKAImBatman · · Score: 3, Interesting

      A lot of the Police here in Chicago are now on Segways. Perhaps their Segway couldn't keep up with his overclocked/turbocharged Segway? ;-)

      Seriously though. Segways may not sound fast, but when you see them in real life, you realize just how fast they really are. They can maintain the speed of a brisk run and quickly maneuver around obstacles. Someone on foot would have trouble keeping up and would run out of breath long before the Segway ran out of a charge.

    2. Re:From the just in case link... by Mz6 · · Score: 2, Funny
      The overwhelming response form the police was:

      Lag

      --
      Hmmm.
    3. Re:From the just in case link... by AKAImBatman · · Score: 2, Informative

      Maybe the police forgot to use a Bicycle, or even a Motorcycle

      Chicago Police have a LOT of options for transportation:

      1. Cars (of course)
      2. 3 wheeled one seater
      3. 4 Wheel ATV with cargo frame
      4. Horses
      5. Segways

      The trick is that Segways are really the only one you can safely take through a crowd. All of the others require a few feet of clearance so that you don't hurt anyone. Imagine how it would look if the police lost the suspect AND injured or killed a pedestrian!

    4. Re:From the just in case link... by gl4ss · · Score: 3, Insightful

      like, rtfa?

      there was no implication that there was a chase at all, the guy just probably simply left after the incident.
      ******
      The child was walking outside her father's Potrero Hill store on Tuesday when a Segway ran her down. Witnesses say it was traveling about 10 miles per hour.

      Joel Bleskacek, father: "I was quite angry and I confronted him. I asked him why he was driving so fast during the crowded lunch hour on the sidewalk. He claimed my daughter jumped in front of him."
      ******
      That implies that the father hadn't even SEEN the incident. the girl was _3_ years old. Now, I might be stupid but what the hell was the parent thinking letting her toddle around like that in the first place? into a what the father even himself claims that was a crowded lunch hour sidewalk. Imagine the girl wandering into the car crowded street from that sidewalk.. 3 year olds don't know much about the world.

      ****
      Sophie Maxwell, S.F. supervisor: "This just reiterates our concerns and our fears that this is exactly what can happen."
      ****
      yeah, well, 3 year olds can get hurt in situations just involving joggers if they're allowed to just jump around the place(or skaters or bicyclists or just about _anything_).

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    5. Re:From the just in case link... by autopr0n · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Joel Bleskacek, father: "I was quite angry and I confronted him. I asked him why he was driving so fast during the crowded lunch hour on the sidewalk. He claimed my daughter jumped in front of him." ****** That implies that the father hadn't even SEEN the incident. the girl was _3_ years old. Now, I might be stupid but what the hell was the parent thinking letting her toddle around like that in the first place?

      Uh, no it doesn't. For one thing, the girl might actually have "jumped" in front of the guy not noticing him, which would mean that both people were telling the truth. (Rider: "she jumped in front of me" Father: "he claimed she jumped in front of him"). All that it implies is that the father and the rider had a difference of opinion about what constitutes a "Jump", which is totally reasonable in cases like this. The fact that you've jumped to a ridiculous conclusion and used it to attack the guy's parenting skills, however, implies you're a jackass.

      --
      autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
    6. Re:From the just in case link... by Wireless+Joe · · Score: 2, Insightful
      The trick is that Segways are really the only one you can safely take through a crowd.

      I think that there are a lot of New Orleans police that would argue that a horse is just as effective at moving through crowds.
    7. Re:From the just in case link... by phraktyl · · Score: 2, Funny

      The only problem with that approach is that you'll have to find a cop who is in shape...

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      Karma: Marginal (mostly due to the border around the website)
    8. Re:From the just in case link... by GlobalEcho · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Spoken like a true childless objectivist.

      Plus: a car? No one should have to watch for that on a sidewalk. A parent can easily keep a 3 year old off the street without holding hands or carrying. But somehow I doubt you would know that.

      Anyone should have the reasonable expectation that anything moving on the sidewalk is capable of avoiding injurious collisions with a human of whatever size. For example, someone engrossed in a map should not be walking at a brisk pace.

      Segways and bicycles operated at medium+ speeds or by unskilled riders belong on the street, where they shoulder more of their own risk.

  2. Three Hour Tour by boristdog · · Score: 5, Funny

    Why does that sound ominous too me?

    1. Re:Three Hour Tour by garcia · · Score: 4, Funny

      Hey, if Ginger is leading that tour I'm *REAL* fucking curious. :)

    2. Re:Three Hour Tour by drooling-dog · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Hey, if Ginger is leading that tour I'm *REAL* fucking curious. :)

      I'll take Mary Ann over Ginger any day...

    3. Re:Three Hour Tour by gstoddart · · Score: 2, Funny

      Dude, she's 70 nowdays. You might be disappointed. =)

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    4. Re:Three Hour Tour by Erratio · · Score: 4, Funny

      The Segways are going to all hit a big rock and loose their power, stranding a bunch of lazy people in some uncharted area of Chicago (beware the natives), perhaps a mile or more from known civilization. Since none are brave enough to walk the grueling distance back, they will concoct elaborate schemes to get back, which will invariably be foiled by the bumbling assistant tour guide. Coming soon to a TV near you.

      --
      I don't try to be right, I just try to make people think
  3. just in case... by netfool · · Score: 5, Funny
    --
    Left 4 Dead Gaming Group - http://www.l4dgg.com
    1. Re:just in case... by That's+Unpossible! · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The picture is hilarious, but I find it funny that people think it strange that we get pictures of bush doing stupid things when he has people filming him constantly.

      But I bet you've never done anything clumsy.

      --
      Ironically, the word ironically is often used incorrectly.
  4. The city that should have these is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Washington, DC. You could zip around between the monuments and museums pretty quickly. A lot of the car traffic in that area is really not necessary, and people could get in and out of the area via Metro.

    1. Re:The city that should have these is by Seumas · · Score: 2, Informative

      DC does have these. I've seen it reported on TechTV, FOX News and CNN. A number of other cities have these two. I've probably heard half a dozen just on television reports alone.

      Kind of not news at all anymore. *shrug*

  5. Missing screen? by michaelmalak · · Score: 3, Funny

    I don't remember the "Chicago Lakefront" screen in Lemmings.

  6. Been there, done that - Sarasota Florida by tbase · · Score: 4, Informative

    It was a few months ago we had a news story down here about a company giving Segway tours of Sarasota, with full support of City Hall.

    --

    666-607: 6th floor apartment of the beast
  7. Makes some sense by goombah99 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    consider the cost of ownership of a ten passenger van versus the cost of ten segways. The segways win compared to the cost of a new van. Moreover the segaways have better access. Still the segways cant be used just anywhere like this.

    --
    Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    1. Re:Makes some sense by taped2thedesk · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Another plus:

      If the ten-passenger van breaks down, there are ten 'seats' out of commission until it gets fixed. The capacity of your business goes down by ten people.

      If one of the segways breaks down, the other nine still work. Thus, you're only missing, and chances are you'll have a few spares around anyway. Your capacity only goes down by one.

    2. Re:Makes some sense by timeOday · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Plus it's a lakefront tour, surely it would be more fun out in the open air rather than in a van.

      Bikes could work, but only for cyclists. I run regularly but definitely don't have the butt callouses to sit on a bike seat for 3 hours.

      Walking would be nice, but you couldn't go as far in 3 hours, and besides nobody would pay you $60 to let them walk for 3 hours.

      Besides being a great attention-getter, I have to admit the Segway actually makes some sense here!

    3. Re:Makes some sense by SirWhoopass · · Score: 2, Informative

      I won't argue about your access point. Segways can get around in a lot more areas than driving a van.

      As to cost, however, I think you are off. Segways are about $4,000 each, so the total cost is $40,000. That's a third more than a new Ford ten-passengar van (brand new E350 XLT with 15-passenger seating- $29,685 according to For's website). I'd have to imagine the liability insurance and upkeep for ten Segway rentals is higher than a single van.

    4. Re:Makes some sense by jCaT · · Score: 3, Informative

      consider the cost of ownership of a ten passenger van versus the cost of ten segways. The segways win compared to the cost of a new van.
      What?

      Segway Human Transporter (HT) I Series
      Price: $4,495.00
      X 10: $44,950.00

      2004 Chevrolet Express 2500 15 Passenger Van
      MSRP: $26,175.00

      According to This site, an estimated cost per mile for the segway is 18 cents per mile, with battery purchases included. Multiply that by 10 people, and you have a cost of $1.80 per mile.

      According to Edmunds.com, the cost per mile on the Chevrolet van is $0.66 per mile.

      I wont argue with the fact that segways have better access, but it's just not true that they are cheaper in any way, whatsoever.

    5. Re:Makes some sense by jCaT · · Score: 3, Informative

      Please read the URL's I referenced. Edmunds.com's "COST PER MILE" estimate takes gas prices into account. Even if they didn't, at 15 mpg, the van would cost an extra 13 cents per mile to operate. That bumps it up to $0.80 cents per mile- still less than half as much.

    6. Re:Makes some sense by sulli · · Score: 2, Interesting
      consider the cost of ownership of a ten passenger van versus the cost of ten segways. The segways win compared to the cost of a new van. Moreover the segaways have better access. Still the segways cant be used just anywhere like this.

      consider the cost of a ten passenger van versus the cost of ten bicycles. you get the same features, and can take an awesome trip around the world with the money you save. plus the passengers lose weight.

      --

      sulli
      RTFJ.
    7. Re:Makes some sense by tftp · · Score: 2, Insightful
      A ten-passenger van will happily run for many, many years before it breaks down - that is because its technology is simple, mature and well known. Just service it as the manual says. Also, how much of a rough ride you would expect from a bus tour in a city?

      Segway, on the other hand, is a tricky thing. Its batteries can run out at any time, and they wear down gradually (your fuel tank doesn't.) Your tourists have to have good body coordination to ride anything (bike, Segway, monocycle - anything), but they need none of that to sit in a van that is carefully driven by your employee on a well-beaten path. Accidents and lawsuits were already mentioned, and anyone who pays for the tour definitely expects some level of safety.

  8. Looks like it's a Gimmick by Inhibit · · Score: 2, Interesting

    to get people to use the Segway's or somesuch. It might work to get people to view the city... wonder if it's funded in part by a tourist council?

    --
    You're reading Slashdot. Of course you like Linux and pc hardware
  9. They've been doing this in Paris for over a year. by flanksteak · · Score: 3, Interesting
    I saw people touring Paris last year on a bunch of these. One of the tourists almost pulled a GW onto the pavement, but the guide showed them how to properly mount the Segway before they tried again. If you're going to Paris, Nice, or New Orleans anytime soon, check out City Segway Tours.

    Here in Seattle I've also seen the people who collect the change out of parking meters using Segways to move up and down the sidewalks.

    I guess Kamen is managing to sell these things, but not as many as was originally hoped.

  10. Minneapolis by Judg3 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Minneapolis does this to on their "Magical History Tour"

    Travel back in time on a Magical History Tour(TM)! Ride a Segway as you enjoy the history of the Minneapolis Riverfront area from 10,000 BC to present without breaking a sweat. Let the Segway do the work as you cover several miles accompanied by a professional guide

    Of course, this one costs $70

    --
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  11. Re:Need a new term by thebra · · Score: 4, Funny

    Nerds?

  12. Ive been doing this for 6 months. by dallask · · Score: 4, Informative

    Finally, I can promote my business and not be off topic...

    We have been renting the Segway HT for 6 months now in the La Jolla / San Diego area... We also provide training and a helmet to all riders and to date have not had a single incident.

    It is interesting though the reaction we get from the disabled community. While the majority of people who encounter the units see them as a marvel, the Disabled community is split in their view of the units.

    Those with minor to severe mobility issues LOVE the units. They see them as a viable alternative to a wheelchair and a way to increase their mobility.

    However, those who are confined to a chair, and those who are blind and deaf are strongly opposed to the units being on the sidewalks.

    They are afraid that they will be hit by the units and see them as a danger, even though NOONE, in this area at least, has been hit by the units.

    To further increase their safety, we also limit the units to 6 miles per hour.

    --
    The Code Ninja is swift with his tool, precise in his delivery, and deadly accurate in his execution.
    1. Re:Ive been doing this for 6 months. by dallask · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes, it is an insurance liability to allow someone to ride the unit, rented from us, without a helmet. However, what they do with the helmet after they leave is outside of my control.

      Insurance wise, we must do everything in our power to keep the rider safe. That includes training, and a helmet. But you are required to wear a helmet when you rent a bike as well.

      --
      The Code Ninja is swift with his tool, precise in his delivery, and deadly accurate in his execution.
  13. Next thing you know Portland, OR will by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Be painting Segways Yellow- and leaving them around town for just anybody to use who wants to look stupid, just like the Yellow Bike Project

    --
    SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
  14. Better use? by FerretFrottage · · Score: 2, Funny

    How about you beef them up on the front and use them as part of some humn a bowling ball device. Maybe protect the driver in some sort of giant plastic hasmter wheel and then have the contestants drive into 10 ft (around 3+ meter) heigh pins. Make a couple of the pins exploding and you got a nice spring break event. Of course as the SF hit and run article shows, who needs pins when you got people.

    --
    "Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a fat white guy who is threatened by change."
  15. Who's providing helmets for the pedestrians? by sjonke · · Score: 2

    Surely anything requiring a helmet for safety should not be allowed on sidewalks.

    --
    --- What?
  16. Re:Need a new term by mrtroy · · Score: 2, Funny

    A bunch of less cars on the road.

    An english translation please?

    --
    [I can picture a world without war, without hate. I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it]
  17. Segway tours of Epcot by ralphb · · Score: 2, Informative

    For a while now, you have been able to get a Segway tour of Walt Disney World's Epcot theme park. They weren't available the last time the family went to WDW, but next time we're going to give this a try.

  18. How about by Prince+Vegeta+SSJ4 · · Score: 2, Interesting
    you charge me $2 bucks and let me ride one of THESE

    or better yet, ride a bicycle, McDonalds, motorized scooters, maybe motorized shoes next, let's get some exercise people. I know some people need assistance, but I'm tired of seeng 5 year olds on motorized vehicles, DAMN.

    1. Re:How about by dallask · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The segway is not meant to replace WALKING! It is meant to replace DRIVING...

      I assume you own a car? Do you walk to the grocery store? How about to the movie theater?

      When was the last time you walked between 5-15 miles to get to a destination. Now, when was the last time you DROVE there?

      The Segway is meant to replace driving in short trips to and from locations between 10 and 15 miles from your departure point. It uses no gas, and cost $0.10 a day to charge.

      Its transportation, not exercise.

      --
      The Code Ninja is swift with his tool, precise in his delivery, and deadly accurate in his execution.
    2. Re:How about by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 3, Insightful
      The segway is not meant to replace WALKING! It is meant to replace DRIVING...

      Neither, really. It's suppose to fit a zone in between that has previously been poorly-serviced.

      Do you walk to the grocery store?

      That'd be an especially bad use of the Segway. Grocery customers buy numerous large bags, which you can't transport standing on a scooter. Keeping the purchase size down to what a Segway can carry would nessecitate more trips.

      The Segway is meant to replace driving in short trips to and from locations between 10 and 15 miles from your departure point.

      The Segway goes maybe 12 miles in an hour. Depending on road conditions, automobiles do between 20 and 60. For the 10-15 mile trips you're talking about, a car is the rational choice for the following reasons:
      1. More than twice as fast, meaning a 10 mile trip is 20 minutes instead of 50. (Saving 60 minutes bidirectionally)
      2. For trips longer than 15 miles, a car is needed. And since you've already got an expensive vehicle for long distance, why not use it for shortrange too?
      3. Protected from the weather
      4. Transport cargo/people
      5. Less expensive (a used car starts at $400, 1/10th the price of a Segway)
      6. Headlights for nighttime operation
      7. Longer range (Segways die after less than 3 hours travel)


      Segways don't do well compared with bicycles either. Bikes are about equivalent in terms of speed, cargo, and weather protection, but can cost just 1% of the sale price, and have the benefit of increasing the operator's cardiovascular health.
      Plus, in uncongested areas, the bike is faster too... and of course it goes longer between recharging.

      The market niche for Segways is apparently people who'd like to make small bicycle-level trips, but are too obese to pedal themselves.
  19. Another 'Just In Case' Reason by ackthpt · · Score: 2, Funny
    --

    A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
  20. Deposit required by Hoi+Polloi · · Score: 4, Funny

    Riders must leave their pride with the ticket booth before joining the tour.

    --
    It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
  21. Taking out a Segway Jedi style by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Couldn't the police just come from the opposite direction with 2 Segways with a cable between them and trip up the offending Segway? It works on Imperial Walkers!

  22. Re:Segway Experience by dallask · · Score: 2, Interesting

    We rent the Segway in La Jolla CA. Everyone who has tried the units has come back very excited about them.

    Most tell us that the trick is to relax and let the unit do the work for you. They also tell us that it is so responsive that it almost obeys your thoughts rather than your actions.

    --
    The Code Ninja is swift with his tool, precise in his delivery, and deadly accurate in his execution.
  23. Re:Need a new term by GersonK · · Score: 2, Funny

    They're just a Segment of the population.

  24. A three hour tour by Virtex · · Score: 2

    ... a three hour tour ...

    Why did I get flashbacks of Gilligan's Island when I saw that phrase? Hmmm...

    Just sit right back and you'll hear a tale,
    a tale of a fateful day.
    That started from Chicago's port,
    aboard this here Segway.
    The tour guide was way up front,
    the crowd was brave and sure.
    Five tourists set off that day,
    for a three hour tour, a three hour tour
    The weather started getting rough,
    the Segways all were tossed.
    If not for the courage of the fearless bunch,
    the tour would be lost; the tour would be lost.
    The Segways took ground on the shore of this uncharted desert isle,
    with Gilligan, the guide too,
    the Millionaire, and his Wife,
    the Movie Star, the Professor and Mary Ann,
    here on Lake Michigan's Isle.

    --
    For every post, there is an equal and opposite re-post.
  25. Re:Shut up already by dallask · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Trying to sell you on the concept of the Segway is akin to trying to replace a farmer's horse with a car in the 1900's.

    but in all honesty, the segway isnt for you. Your happy on a bike, and thats ok. Just realise that it is picking up steam and sales and you might just have to share the sidewalks in the future.

    --
    The Code Ninja is swift with his tool, precise in his delivery, and deadly accurate in his execution.
  26. From the "just in case" link by Sinful_Shirts · · Score: 4, Funny

    "The man fled the scene on his Segway. Police think he lives in the neighborhood. " Wow, I would have figured he rode his segway from a different city.

  27. Chicago Police on Segways by GlobalEcho · · Score: 2, Informative

    I would not characterize it as "a lot". I ride my bicycle on city streets and the lakefront daily, and though I see bicycle cops all the time I have yet to see a Segway.

  28. Re:Helmets!? by jcuervo · · Score: 2, Funny
    something which starts with "p", ends with "y" and can also mean "cat."
    <ralph> Puppy! </ralph>
    --
    Assume I was drunk when I posted this.
  29. Re:Shut up already by dallask · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The CA legislature has limited the Segways speed to 8 MPH on the sidewalks. We rent them at 6mph.

    Those who own one and wish to ride them at the faster speeds can ride them in the bike lanes.

    And for cites with dedicated bike lanes, that's fine. However, the unit's riders are legally considered a pedestrian. This is because the Segway is MUCH more controllable than a bike, or skateboard.

    At 12MPH I can stop within a foot. Which I cant do on a bike. I can also stand still and pivot in place, allowing me to get in and out of tight places.

    Its a new machine, with new technology, that's like nothing else on the market.

    --
    The Code Ninja is swift with his tool, precise in his delivery, and deadly accurate in his execution.
  30. Seen 'em by Suffering+Bastard · · Score: 2, Informative

    I guess I'm a little late to this conversation, but just wanted to mention that I've seen these tours already happening. I was downtown, at Columbus and Monroe, on May 15th and saw a group of people on Segways wearing helmets. I overheard one of them telling the group what route they were going to take to complete their tour.

    It'll be interesting to see how this affects pedestrian traffic downtown. Shouldn't be too bad as long as they stay close to the lakes and parks; I can't imagine how they'd get around in the Loop without creating huge pedstrian traffic delays.

    I've also seen some cops using them. Gives me an ominous feeling when I see that and recall Steve Jobs's comment: "people will build cities around this thing."

    --
    "Molest me not with this pocket calculator stuff."
    - Deep Thought
  31. Actually it takes more work than you would think by SuperKendall · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Sure it looks like you are just standing there. But remember the Segway is using cues from your body to determine if it should move forward, back, or slow down... so you are actually spending a lot of time readjusting balance in ways you're not accustomed to, and after a few hours your legs can get fairly tired. It's not like being in a car whene the experinece is mostly passive as far as your muscles go.

    Heck, even just standing up for a long time without balancing in different ways is more than most people do!

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  32. comparison with early automobiles by tsunamifirestorm · · Score: 2, Insightful

    at the beginning of the twentieth century, a lot of people were concerned about the accidents that could occur from automobiles. the cost of accidents were eventually considered to be a reasonable risk considering the convenience that they give.

  33. to whom? by krokodil · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ... helmet is provided -- just in case.

    After reading link about segway accident, I realized
    that helmets should be provided also to pedestrian, not just drivers.

  34. Hmmm... by SuperKendall · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It all depends on the exact geography of course, but I think that after two weeks of practice, the hills would cease to be a problem.

    I don't think so. I know guys who bike 40 miles a day (not that uncommon in Colorado) and for most of the hills between my house and work, you are not going to be going much better than walking speed up them even with a lot of conditioning. I can tell because I pass them every day in my car and I have never seen any of them going above a crawl.

    If the shower is a consequence of having sweated on the trip, then Segways can share that problem. Automobiles can turn the air conditioning up to frosty levels, but of course Segways and bikes can't do this. They'll both have you exposed to hot sunlight for about the same length of time. Of course, the bike also involves some physical extertion, but I think in the summertime you'd sweat regardless.

    In Houston I would agree with you. But in any dry climate it's pretty easy to be outside even at 90 degrees or more for a long time and not really sweat at all. As long as you had a hat and some water things would be good (and for commuting the temperatures would be a lot lower when traveling).

    Another point I neglected to mention is that bicycles and automobiles have a wheel diameter greater than twice that of a Segway. This becomes important when you get off of neat sidewalks and onto real roads, which can become highly non-smooth, especially at the edges. A thin bike wheel can navigate precisely around the edges of obstacles/potholes, which a Segway could not avoid without swinging way out into automotive traffic.

    On the Segway you would simply ride over whatever it was, this to me is actually a weakness of the bicycle in that it's very prone to problems from the smallest of debris. A Segway has a huge amount of tourque as in very stable, you can just about go up over a curb on one. I actually wuld feel a lot more confident on a Segway near traffic than a bike, and I've biked quite a lot in the past. I know I could comfortably use the segway on rocky shoulders where nobody with a road bike is willing to go.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley