Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft's EU Appeal is Ready
psic writes "According to techworld, Microsoft plans on lodging its official appeal to the European Commission concerning the EC's decision to fine the software giant 497.2 million euros, as well as forcing them to open up part of the code of Windows, "so other products could interoperate with it better".
It's taken Microsoft a couple of months, but their appeal is ready. One interesting thing is the fact that an appeal will take at least three years to conclude. But the decision of the EC might just come into effect very soon, regardless of Microsoft's appeal."
Hmmm.
I dont know about you, but if someone tried to fine me 497.2 million i would be happy to wait three more years before paying.
Do you need a website upgrade?
3 years... sheesh, those administrators sure knows how to work effectively.
:-)
Isn't there a chance that the appeal will be summarily (sp?) turned down? I thought that an appeal for a new trial was only granted when there was new evidence available?
(I just submitted this like 1 minute before it was on the frontpage... sigh.. if only once I'd get a story accepted
Assuming 1) it takes three years for the appeal process to be completed, and 2) Microsoft will not pay the fine until they *lose* the appeal, will they also be liable for the interest on the money? Its not an insignificant amount...
--- We are not in the 8th dimension. We are over New Jersey.
Everyone in the software industry realizes Microsoft is this big 800 lb gorilla. They have such power over the personal computer market. They can make or break whole companies or new ideas because of their control over the consumer PC experience. I am so glad that they are getting smacked around a bit in Europe, because really their control over such a huge market is anti-capitalistic and harmful to the market. Monopolies rarely serve entities in the market other than the monopolist. It's good to see the Europeans understand this and are actually doing something about it.
If the ruling goes into effect before the appeal is concluded, and if Microsoft wins with the appeal, will we be seeing Microsoft suing the EU for revenues lost during that time? I can see them borrowing the RIAA's calculator and racking up a very high bill for the EU...
[SIG] It's like putting a moose in the blender -- a recipe for disaster!
"It was told to produce a new version of Windows with its media player tied in, as well as open up part of its code so other products could interoperate with it better."
Hmmm.
there you go , a linked list for you to play with and enjoy, bonus points for explaining it at a dinner party
Just in case the server crashes and burns (like they usually do),I have put up a mirror.s ID=1669 is at http://mirrorit.demonmoo.com/r_707/www.techworld.c om/opsys/news/index.cfm%3fNewsID=1669
The mirror of http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?New
Note to Mods: When I post mirrors, it's a best guess. I don't know for certain whether or not the site will go down!
From article: "Microsoft has expressed disappointment with the EU ruling."
In related news: Getting stabbed in the face hurts. For a while.
SIG: TAKE OFF EVERY 'CAPTAIN'!!
punishments can go up as well as down, its possible a judge can rule that the previous courts punishment wasn't harsh enough
Both Microsoft and Apple have a huge number of lawsuits to deal with this year (thats even affecting stock/futures), do you think the entire industry has legal problems or is it a trait specific to American companies ?
They have prepared the Chewbacca Defense!
Slashdot Sig. version 0.1alpha. Use at your own risk.
What happens if Microsoft loses its request to suspend the remedies, so is forced to pay the fine and open up parts of Window's and subsequently wins the apeal?
OK, the EU can repay the fine (with intrest) but once the code is open it stays open.
The lawyers who manipulate this system of constant appeals.
Evolution or ID?
it's a drop in the bucket compared to their $60 Billion in cash. It is just a simple "cost of doing business" for them. Not that I wouldn't be surprized if they rolled over on this without and appeal, but think about it.
"Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain
"Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain
The story says they need to open up some code for all us little people. I can't wait for the EU to sue them again over the license they'll put the code under...
The Yasashii Syndicate ||
The original decision was a determination of the European Commission. This is part of the executive branch of the European Union, and you could see its rulings as equivalent to rulings of the Office of Fair Trading/ Competition Commission here in the UK, or the Department of Justice in the US. There is an automatic right of appeal from such decisions to the judicial branch (the European Court): this is seen as an essential part of the system of checks and balances in the EU. Strictly, the case is currently being appealed to the European Court of First Instance: there is a further layer of appeal to the European Court itself.
The three year gap between government making its mind up on the case it wishes to pursue and final determination of that case in the courts is not that different from what might be expected in the US I think, in a case involving this much money and complexity. The further appeal may stretch things out a little further but not necessarily as (a) the European Court tends to follow the decisions of the CFI and (b) the Court has the power to call the case before it immediately, leapfrogging the intermediate stage (I believe again this is a similarity with the US Supreme Court- Federal Courts relationship, on which the European judicial institutions are modelled).
Looking at the current stock price of 26.13 we calculate the number of outstranding shares at about 10,792,192,882.
The last dividend payment was 0.16 a share, which would come in a total of $1,726,750,861.08 , so they cut the dividend by a third for one quarter - big deal.
I guess what they really care about is having to open up their source, with all of the recent exploits, one can only imagine what will happen if the source is public knowledge (a whole new can of worms - ba da bing). It could be a public relations fiasco, especially if it comes to light that there are many exploits that are or should have been known by MS.
So, in 2007 they will produce a Windows XP without Media Player. But who will buy WinXP in 2007 ?
This is just the time for launching LongHorn ! (and it will be bundled with Duke Nukem Forever)
And in 2012 they will release a light-Longhorn version without ExtraDRMizedMediaPlayer. Oh wait, 2012 is the date they will launch Microsoft Windows Interface, a really cool new Desktop Manager for the Linux 4.0 kernel.
Tsss... 3 years in computer science is like thousand years of history...
Ploum.net.
Is there going to be anything to stop Microsoft associating media files with a little program that says something like: "You do not have Windows Media Player installed. Windows Media Player is required to view media. Click here to download Windows Media Player."?
Then all the normal users would still use WMP.
# cat
Damn, my RAM is full of llamas.
Its not an insignificant amount...
Actually it is more than you may think. Microsoft's $56b cash hoard is bigger than most investment funds in the world. Hence, they get the best rates, the best opportunities and the best return.
This AC is basically correct. Losing party pays used to be the rule until the new Civil Procedure Rules came into force in England and Wales in 2001(Scotland and Northern Ireland having separate legal systems).
Now, generally, the losing party pays BUT if you've been unreasonable (e.g. by refusing to settle a case, then winning, but by less than the amount you were offered to make a deal), the winner can now get stumped with the loser's legal costs (from the date the offer was made).
AFAIK and IANAL but I thought most Commonwealth countries had a system of losing party pays. US is somewhat different, I think.
This case is going to be different again though as it is brought by the European Commission, in the European Courts where national laws and court procedure are irrelevant.
I don't think slashdot can help you with this.. but maybe a shrink can.
I honestly don't think MS is as much interested in the fines (although it is a significant sum) as in the public blackeye from the ruling, and being forced to reveal source code. I would guess they have something to hide in the source code, as in "stolen" code, and perhaps quite a few "bits" of it. I also think this applies to a slew of closed source softwares.
Whatsay any AC closed source developers? Is theft of open source rampant?
oh.. nevermind, only saw that linked list, didnt see the actual question for which that was the answer to
A key figure at Microsoft was found guilty of Murder. The justice department realised that a prison sentence would limit his freedom of movement, so in a last minute deal arranged by Microsoft's lawyers they agreed that the murderer would not use bladed weapons or bullets to attack people.
I don't know why the argument about how this will harm Microsoft is getting any time at all. Surely that's the entire point of a large fine!
they were required to make a "new" version of Windows without the media player
That and a few other monopoly-related restrictions that Microsoft has implemented
As far as I can tell the whole appeal process is Microsoft's way of defending their Palladium (aka "secure computing") system from "competitors". If they are forced to support software that doesn't run as Microsoft bids then they can deny it from installing. Sure the technology will take several years before it actually comes out, but MS would prefer to have complete control over Windows.
If you are forced to use Windows Media player you are forced to play by their rules. If you can use another media player on your computer than it would depend if that vendor used the same code protection as MS -- which they know no sane vendor who isn't MS-friendly would support. They could use this to sell you all kinds of access just because they would control the media player market.
I can tell you one thing, if I was a monopoly and I had control over a platform this big, I'd be tempted to contain it the same way that Microsoft is trying to. I'm really hoping that the EC wins because Microsoft needs some real legal competition to keep their monopoly in line.
All MS got after the anti-trust trial was a slap on the wrist. Not to mention OJ trial, the last decade already showed us how ineffective the American justice system was. MS should now realize that not all countries are alike. "Just pay the suckers money and move on" should be their way of handling this, like they have done so many times with so many companies. Just shut up and pay and get rid of the already bloated DRM-ediaPlayer.
Don't be silly: the whole case started at the request of American companies (Real and SUN Microsystem).
And the EU has fined european companies many times, and for huge amounts of money.
Bye, and enjoy your little american world!
Ciao, Renato
How many users are going to simply go "Oh, damnit, this version of windows came without media player, I'll just hop on over to MS's website and download it then"
as opposed to
"Right there's no player on here so i'll search the internet and do some research and pick between iTunes Winamp WMP and..."
If you can't see the value in jet powered ants you should turn in your nerd card. - Dunbal (464142)
They were thoroughly convicted here (they even lied in court), and they never changed. They get convicted of the same in the EU, which surprises nobody, and Ballmer claims to be shocked, *shocked* that the EU would do such a despicable thing. He goes on moaning as though he's been wronged. Is he fooling ANYBODY?
This is an honest question, because I'm not sure but hope my hunch is correct: Is there *anyone* in the industry who gives one lick of credence to Microsoft's bitching about the ruling? Is there anyone who doesn't see directly through these press releases? Anyone who doesn't see this as a poorly contrived attempt at looking innocent?
For the record "monopoly" is shorthand for "dominant position" which is what Microsoft was accused of having abused. Note that under U.S. law (as I understand it) it's illegal to try to attain a monopoly position, something which is perfectly legal in the EU. What is illegal in the EU is *abuse* of a dominant position. Microsoft certainly does have a dominant position in the European Union in the OS and Office-suite markets. From my perspective as an EU lawyer the case revolved around abuses of Microsoft's dominant position in the European Union. The fact that Microsoft is an American company is irrelevant. It's easy to assume this is anti-American action by the EU, but the truth is that other than (we hope) resulting in a lowering of the prices of Microsoft products so that its gross margins more accurately reflect those enjoyed by other companies (from which the benefit is to the consumer) the major benefit will be to the other US companies (Winamp, Real Networks, Musicmatch) which will be able to sell the products to slip in the space where media player once was...
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
The way I see it, Microsoft should simply have to comply right away. Then, if they want to lodge an appeal claim, then they are perfectly entitled to do so. If they win, they get their fine back with interest, as well as compensation for any money lost due to the other rulings. Maybe, as they say, once their systems are openly documented they cannot simply be UN-documented if they are found to be innocent. Then again, if a jailed man is found to be innocent, his lost time can't just be given back. That's the way the law works, and it needs to be the same for everyone!
Yes you are correct, Microsoft only affects the USA. There are no software companies anywhere else amd nobody in other contries buys Microsoft software. Those EU bastards.
Main Entry: monopoly
Pronunciation: m&-'nä-p(&-)lE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -lies
Etymology: Latin monopolium, from Greek monopOlion, from mon- + pOlein to sell
1 : exclusive ownership through legal privilege, command of supply, or concerted action
2 : exclusive possession or control
3 : a commodity controlled by one party
4 : one that has a monopoly
Monopoly is not dominant position. If it is to be understood simply as holding the dominant position in the market, then the nay-sayers who claim that Microsoft is being punished for being successful are correct.
I realize that Microsoft is not kind in the marketplace, but they're not obligated to be kind in the marketplace, nor is any other company.
I'm not a coder, but I do observe how business works. There's these things like deadlines, over hyped sales, etc and the temptation is right there. I know you can't "steal" open source and free code, but I don't know how to phrase it more accurately. You got a flock of PHBs breathing down your neck,because some clients are breathing down their necks, or the "stock" holders, etc, you can see some shortcuts to take to get them off your back. I've seen it first hand in other industries, so I imagine software is no different. It's just a variant of industrial espionage, and obviously fairly easy to do.
It sure would help to get rid of patents with intangibles, I think that's the biggest mistake, but they went down that road long ago, so I don't see them going away inside the USA any time soon..
I neglected that, but sure, that has to be a part of it as well. It would cripple them completely. I doubt you'd be able to even use windows on the net then. Who knowth though... And I am not shy about saying I hope it happens to them, that eventually they get broken up, lose their various incorporation charters, the whole nine yards. Some of the execs actually serving hard time behind bars.. Even if that means
rutan needs to find new financing...
They, same as everyone else in this world, had a chance to be an honest company but instead chose to go the route of greed, arrogance, bullying, and other sorts of no-goodnik behavior. A long time ago I actually admired them-until I actually learned what was going on with them in the business world. No different from Enron, just another huge weasel company. Their products are a different matter, some work OK, some suck,. about the same as any other humongous company, but their TACTICS are abhorrent.
All this is is a government cash grab. No one is forced to use windows media player. There are many other alternatives to using it, and users are free to pick whichever they want.
This isn't about monopolies, this is about opportunistic government offices and greedy people. Don't try to tell me that close to a half-billion dollars in cash is not a determing factor in this all. You can bet that at least a few people are going to retire on this. Think about that before you decide that the European government is some kind of altruistic entity. These are the same people who brought you the soon-to-be-abused patent system EVEN AFTER seeing the damage it caused in the US.
Next they'll be telling us that "You can't ship a filesystem with an operating system because it will hurt people's ability to interoperate with filesystems". It just won't end, and it's rediculous. Governments need to wake up to the stupidity around them.
If you want to bring the Microsoft empire down, make linux better by fixing it's obvious flaws and bringing it to the general user arena.
BeauHD. Worst editor since kdawson.
I wont give you the answer, but I could give you a few pointers.
"One interesting thing is the fact that an appeal will take at least three years to conclude."
Wow! That's almost as slow as their software development!!!
They are not obligated to be kind? You would get quite a different picture if you actually read the relevant EU legislation... and they do have anti-trust legislation in the US too.
I didn't, I just said a deadline. It *might* be the next day, but it can be any arbitrary time forward that would indicate it couldn't be finished by the date specified, given the x-amount already acomplished in the y-time of the past. A "deadline" is not a specific length opf time unless yopu are specifically discussing an exact circumstance, as I was not. I was generally speaking. And what, you've never seen a project that was close to a "deadline" and not near finished, in ANY business you've been associated with? And then sometimes shortcuts taken? You have really never seen this? If so, you are joe competent and joe lucky, both. You are either self employed and really manage your time and resopurces and skills well, or work for a fantastic company that gives you all the time and resources in the world you need to accomplish a project or goal towards a project. Good for you if that is the case, but frankly, I would think that is a general exception, and not the rule in most places.
:
And as to where they would look to get code to recycle, I thought that was obvious, in any open source project that is similar to what they are doing.
your quote
"This isn't a task that could be done overnight - negating the supposed advantage you were talking about."
sorry, you are wrong, the advantage is in stealing, the time element is irrelevenat, I merely provided an example-one of many-why free open source may be stolen and hidden inside closed/propietary, and why the vendors of same *might* wish to perpetuaqte closed source propietary, to hide the fact it occurred. And I am merely speculating, you seem to be insisting that it never happens at all, if so, I doubt you could prove that, whereas I am not trying to prove anything, merely suggesting a possibility, so this is really two different subjects, although related. I say I *think*-it is a theory of mine- based on other industries and what I have seen in meatspace that I think software is no different from any other industry,human nature being the same, you will see roughly the same amount of illegalities going on, theft in various fashions being just one of them. And to be very specific going back to the original article, I would be beyond surprised if there wasn't a lot of code inside MS's shop *in general with all their products* that was "borrrowed" and not necessarily from a BSD styled licensed piece of code.
I hope this clarifies my position on these issues.
AFAIK, in central Europe (Germany, Poland, Czech) most people use other players (often BSPlayer combined with some kind of combo codec pack like KazaLite), due to inability of WMP to display subtitles in viewed movies. Even technically inept users know what divX movies are, and pc-based home-theater systems are quite common here.
I suppose its true for other countries too, but have immediate knowledge only for these places (I lived there)
Player without good subtitles handling is almost useless to non-anglophone people: read most folks on this globe.
So if you wish to beat WMP, you need something which will give functionality unknown before. like Mozilla, which become popular here very quickly. (finally, even in my conservative University, library turned its machines to Mozilla 1.6)
Erm, I would of thought that this post was _informative_.
Thanks for the clarification Dusabre.
What the hell is with the mods today? This isn't a troll - its probably interesting, or at best overrated.....
Legislation/legality and right/wrong are two entirely different things.
How much faster would it be if the courts were not using Microsoft stuff?
"The Bush administration on Monday renewed its attack on the European Commission's decision against Microsoft, but insisted that US-European Union antitrust co-operation was as strong as ever."
It seems the US government IS looking to protect Microsoft.
Sounds like it, but it won't be so easy to convince the European Court, since it has people from all over Europe, rather than just one or two countries, and some countries (France) are very open-source friendly.
We finally might be able to get a crack at their code. This might be good for openoffice in that it may run more effectively and efficiently, than taking forever to start up. Regular people will be able to view some of the code, if not hopefully, the whole code. Maybe some of windows prized features can be reverse engineered and integrated into linux. This could be a big step.
Screw the code.
Screw the money.
Screw "business remedies".
All of these could be said to "excessively hurt Microsoft", and most importantly *do not reduce barriers to entry* (with the possible partial exception of the code).
What competitors *really* need is Microsoft forced to open their file formats and network protocols, so that they can fully interoperate.
Microsoft got where they were by bundling products together and keeping them from interoperating with competitors' products. Fining Microsoft and then letting them continue doing what they were doing may help out the EU, but doesn't do a whole lot to solve the problem.
There are *very* few arguments Microsoft can make against opening file formats and network protocols. There is minimal IP value in each -- it doesn't take a smegging horde of PhDs years of research to create the Word file format. It does nothing but help the consumer, and helps mean that Microsoft always needs to compete.
May we never see th
Amnesty international backs, funds and provides moral support for Maoists in Nepal. You can hop over to the AI site and you will see condemnation of the govenment and some mild criticism maoist. If you want to see how AI has made the conflict into a civil war, goto the BBC and look at the stories on nepal since 2000 and the 2 failed truces. But it gets worse than that. Since AI got involved in 2000, the democratic govenment has been overthrown and communists not control 40% of the country. In the last 4 years 8000 people --mostly civillians-- have been killed in the period from 1996-2000 only 1000 were killed.
The war with islam is a war on the beast
The war on terror is a war for peace