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FreeBSD: Not Exactly Dead

quantumice writes "It would seem that despite being dead and there only being six of us who use it, FreeBSD has clocked up nearly 2.5 million active sites according to Netcraft. So by my estimates that must mean that I and each of my 5 friends run 416 667 sites. That might explain my high bandwidth usage."

184 comments

  1. Gentlemen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    Start your trolling

    1. Re:Gentlemen by kwench · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'd love to... but I still don't understand why everybody is raving about *BSD being dead.

      After having learned that Windows XP is a VMS clone and that Linux is a Minix clone which is a UNIX clone which is a MULTICS clone which is a CTSS clone which is a FMS clone which I have never heard about and which is probably dead, dead, dead I'd think that everything - even BeOS and QNX (and this FreeBSD clone MacOS X) are UNIX-influenced (if not based) and therefore dead, dead, dead. 8-)
      I used to prefer FreeBSD over GNU/Linux because of the straightforward install without bells and whistles and the easy way to compile parts of the system. The only disappointing thing is the lack of drivers for my exotic hardware, at least I was so far not able to find working drivers for my external CD-writer, my laptop's USB and a single of my three USB webcams.

      Well... then I discovered Gentoo and everything was fine again... 8-)

    2. Re:Gentlemen by Rick+the+Red · · Score: 0

      Start your trolling? Why? The "BSD is dead" trolls have managed to troll up an entire story. Anything further would diminish the perfection of that accomplishment. Besides, in this case they'd be "redundant" as well as "troll". "Redundant" but not at all "offtopic".

      --
      If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
    3. Re:Gentlemen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Just a bunch of persistent slashdot trolls. That's it. They don't bother sites that provide better coverage of all things BSD. The slashdot trolls seem to be afraid of BSD taking over their advocacy turf or something. Recall the rather bizarre hostile reaction to a bsd section being added to slashdot.

    4. Re:Gentlemen by ArbitraryConstant · · Score: 1, Interesting

      The longest I've tracked Gentoo stable without something vital breaking is about 60 days. I've had situations where the stable branch wouldn't compile because some of the packages required a package in the unstable branch. If anyone, anywhere, had tried it in any way on a -stable system before it was released to the stable branch, it would have been caught.

      FreeBSD isn't perfect, but it's telling that FreeBSD-current works more consistently than Gentoo-stable. Give Debian-unstable a shot, it's more consistent.

      --
      I rarely criticize things I don't care about.
    5. Re:Gentlemen by Kethinov · · Score: 1

      Exactly. When I saw this story I shook my head. Drink to the BSD trolls tonight. They've been so influential that they now have their own Slashdot story. The editors have been trolled.

      --
      You're right, I wouldn't steal a car. But if it were possible, I sure as hell would download one!
    6. Re:Gentlemen by kwench · · Score: 1

      Debian is also a quite nice distribution but it lacks up-to-date packages. At least in the stable-branch.

      Examples?
      1. There is not recent version of boa available. Having written some weird CGI-progs I need the most recent version which fixes some bugs in boa.
      (And, no, apache is not an option for me!)

      2. All the rest of my favorite software packages is not quite actual... Mozilla-1.0.0 (in stable), Sylpheed-Claws 0.7.4claw3 (in stable). Unstable is a bit better but still not up2date.

    7. Re:Gentlemen by ci4 · · Score: 1

      In favour of Gentoo I might add I had an old Dell P90 (upgraded with an Evergreen AMD to I think 266) which managed about 440 days uptime with Gentoo (it wasn't used too much, though, and I had some problems with the portage database; it retired itself when one of the old 1GB SCSI disks packed away; the rest now is living it's last days running OpenBSD 3.5 as a firewall between a DMZ and a wireless setup). I liked Gentoo because of the BSD portage ideas, which generally work, but again in my view there is nothing to compare to NetBSD pkgsrc - and that is portable itself!

    8. Re:Gentlemen by ArbitraryConstant · · Score: 1

      Just because the linux kernel can do it doesn't mean portage can. You clearly weren't updating things.

      --
      I rarely criticize things I don't care about.
    9. Re:Gentlemen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Elegy For *BSD


      I am a *BSD user
      and I try hard to be brave
      That is a tall order
      *BSD's foot is in the grave.

      I tap at my toy keyboard
      and whistle a happy tune
      but keeping happy's so hard,
      *BSD died so soon.

      Each day I wake and softly sob,
      Nightfall finds me crying
      Not only am I a zit faced slob
      but *BSD is dying.

    10. Re:Gentlemen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Will do, thanks for the ivintation.

      http://zer0.org/daemons/netbsd-feyrer/takeittux. jp g

    11. Re:Gentlemen by KANEKEA · · Score: 0

      FreeBSD is dead. Long live FreeBSD!

    12. Re:Gentlemen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't you see the sarcastic tone in the story? Or are you blind?

    13. Re:Gentlemen by GNAA+Goat-See · · Score: -1

      Don't run stable then.

      Run unstable if you want up-to-date versions of things. Unstable has mozilla-1.7, kernel 2.6.6, and boa 0.94.13.

  2. first and second posts? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1

    Netcraft confirms it, bsd.slash is dying.

  3. The purpose of this story? by Fulkkari · · Score: -1, Troll

    Does anyone seriously think FreeBSD is dead? Then why was this story posted to "prove" than FreeBSD is alive? I don't see any reason why to try prove to the trolls than the *BSDs are alive. The main thing afterall is that YOU think it is a good operating system - not somebody else.

    Next story, please.

    --
    I demand the Cone of Silence!
    1. Re:The purpose of this story? by ctr2sprt · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This story is posted because BSD doesn't generate a lot of exciting news. Well, that's not true: there's lots of exciting news for people who care about BSD. But none of the editors care much about BSD. They like Linux and MacOS X, and talking trash about MS and SCO. This means that they have trouble identifying the stories that actual, honest-to-God BSD users find interesting. But they still feel they ought to give us something, since after all BSD has an entire section on Slashdot. And I guess they are trying to encourage Open Source Brotherhood, not realizing that most BSD users would prefer not to be associated with most Linux users.

    2. Re:The purpose of this story? by javax · · Score: 2, Funny
      The rules of BSD Club:
      1. Rule of BSD Club: Don't talk about BSD
      2. Rule of BSD Club: Don't talk about BSD
      3. if this is your first night with BSD, you have to code
      The rules of Linux Club:
      1. Rule of Linux Club: Fuss about how cool Linux is as loud as you can!
      2. Rule of Linux Club: Fuss about how bad Microsoft/SCO is as loud as you can!
    3. Re:The purpose of this story? by HolyCoitus · · Score: 3, Funny

      Bah... The reason BSD Club has those rules is because the members are dying, so they are unable to talk anymore and the new recruits are the only ones that aren't suffering from horrible diseases that prevent them from coding. The new recruits have to pick up the slack.

      Since when has the BSD crowd enjoyed posting flamebait? Hehe. Aren't you breaking your rules?

      Oh, and Linux is SO COOL! SCO SUCKS. Microsft.. *checks his notes* sucks! Is that still the stance, or are we hating someone else now?

      All in jest though. I want to have some BSD installs, but I am quite lacking in hardware. Perhaps one of the dying folks would leave me a spare box in their will?

      --
      That's scary.
    4. Re:The purpose of this story? by gangien · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And I guess they are trying to encourage Open Source Brotherhood, not realizing that most BSD users would prefer not to be associated with most Linux users.

      Really? that's why every linux convention thing I've been too, has had a BSD booth. Or almost all conversations with BSD users seem to involve Linux in some way. Please. A win for BSD is a win for Linux and vice versa. Soon as linux takes over the desktop BSD will win converts.

    5. Re:The purpose of this story? by niker · · Score: 1
      Since when has the BSD crowd enjoyed posting flamebait? Hehe. Aren't you breaking your rules?

      I believe the grandparent was trying to be funny, playing with the knowledge that there is indeed a "hip" factor in GNU/Linux zealotry and large corporation bashing

      All in jest though. I want to have some BSD installs, but I am quite lacking in hardware. Perhaps one of the dying folks would leave me a spare box in their will?

      You could just get a cheap harddrive with at least 5GB on it, install *BSD and dual boot.

      Suggestion: Freesbie , you don't even have to install to try it out

      --
      Moderators: Don't agree? pray tell why.
    6. Re:The purpose of this story? by HolyCoitus · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I know the grandparents intentions. Just had the urge to poke fun at him. Also, I wouldn't call SCO a large corporation. Hehe

      I have Freesbie already and have played around with it a bit. I want an install, but I also want a BeOS install. I have a spare 133, and my other computer that I have full access to has all IDEs used along with stuffed 10 gig hard drives.

      I'm thinking about just getting a 200 gig Seagate, and partitioning it up rather gratuituously with Gentoo and 3 flavors of BSD. I also need a router, which the 133 might turn into, but it would be fun to possibly play with BeOS on it... I need to find another old box and just have 2 of them.

      Sorry for rambling. About to head to bed. Have been working on changing the way I use my computer again for the millionth time. Started using Mutt and ratpoison today from Fluxbox and Thunderbird.

      --
      That's scary.
    7. Re:The purpose of this story? by Charles+Dart · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Personally, for a server I love a boring OS. Thats why I use FreeBSD on all my servers at home (Solaris at work, bleh!) For the desktop where I want eye-candy OS X all the way. Once I get in the terminal it is so much like FreeBSD I can really get things done.

      I just got an ipod and it is the sweetest gadget I have ever owned and the way and the integration with my ibook is amazing. If you haven't tried it and you like music do what ever it takes to get an apple laptop and and an ipod. I was waiting for the color screen but I decided to get started with a 15gig and give it to my wife when I get a color one. I am having a lot of fun with it and if I had known I would have bought one sooner. I can't wait to get my hands on one of those airport express dealies.

    8. Re:The purpose of this story? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      my god. you are my clone!

    9. Re:The purpose of this story? by Brandybuck · · Score: 3, Informative

      It's a joke. Lighten up. Sheesh...

      --
      Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
    10. Re:The purpose of this story? by cipher+chort · · Score: 1

      You see BSD booths at Linux cons because there aren't a whole lot of BSD cons. Linux is the media's baby right now, so it's what gets all the press and all the buzz. The BSD people are merely trying to get peoples attention to the fact that they are doing kool things too.

      As for the original statement, yes it is true that most BSD users (pick any of the BSDs) prefer not to be associated with Linux and avoid Linux users. Don't take my word for it, read the archives for any of the BSD mailing lists.

      The reason Linux gets the buzz is because Linux users and developers are extremely loud and abrasive. Meanwhile, BSD developers keep their heads down and plod along, not caring to "evangelize" and not making outrageous comments to the press and analysts.

      Your last comment about "a win for..." is exactly the difference between Linux and BSD. Linux is trying to "win" something (so far as I can tell, it's putting Microsoft out of business and pissing on the ashes). BSD developers are just trying to develop stable and secure operating systems (full OSs mind you, not just kernels) that can be used in production environments. BSD is not trying to "win" anything.

      --
      Someone is WRONG on the Internet!
    11. Re:The purpose of this story? by name773 · · Score: 1

      oh, and bsd isn't trying to be a mainstream desktop os. that's the reason i'm switching (my desktop, ironically) to freebsd tommorrow after exams let out :)

    12. Re:The purpose of this story? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Flamebait

      > Soon as linux takes over the desktop BSD will
      > win converts.

      A win for Linux is a loss for everyone. Linux
      is not about Unix excellence. It's about rabid
      zealots pushing political and social constructs
      on people through their utopian licensing scheme
      which will save the worl from the evil of [ fill
      in the blank ].

    13. Re:The purpose of this story? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1

      Soon as linux takes over the desktop

      Unless advancements in cryogenics take hold, I really wouldn't hold my breath.

    14. Re:The purpose of this story? by gangien · · Score: 1

      As for the original statement, yes it is true that most BSD users (pick any of the BSDs) prefer not to be associated with Linux and avoid Linux users. Don't take my word for it, read the archives for any of the BSD mailing lists.

      Right. This certainly represents their users. If you get them out of the enviroment where BSD is god, then they become much more humbled and realistic about BSD and Linux and Windows and everything.

      Your last comment about "a win for..." is exactly the difference between Linux and BSD. Linux is trying to "win" something (so far as I can tell, it's putting Microsoft out of business and pissing on the ashes).

      What/ linux isn't trying to win anything. Redhat is. Suse is. Mandrake is. Linux is pretty much doing what you claim BSD developers are doing.

    15. Re:The purpose of this story? by sp0rk173 · · Score: 1

      If you haven't tried it and you like music do what ever it takes to get an apple laptop and and an ipod.

      Or get something cheaper, that works seemlessly with any OS that has a java virtual machine, and plays more music formats. Like the Rio Karma. Well, unless you don't want to go against the trends and all. It's so unhip looking.

    16. Re:The purpose of this story? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      where you one of those kids in high school that didn't like some bands JUST because other people listened to them?

    17. Re:The purpose of this story? by KrispyKringle · · Score: 2, Insightful
      You know, I highly doubt you speak for BSD users as a group any more than the idiots posting about how Linux is better speak for Linux users as a group.

      Guess what? I use FreeBSD, OpenBSD, Linux, and OSX. Not on the same machine, of course. Each useful for something, and really, that's what software is for. Engineers choose the best tool for the job. Only idiots choose a tool based on how cool they think it is, and I find frequently that those who brag most about what OS they use do so not because they have a good reason for using it, but in fact because they don't. Bragging results from their idological reasons for using their chosen software; had they real reasons, they would understand that others have real reasons for using other software.

      Point: I use Mac OSX on my laptop. Why? Because it has desktop software I want to use and it functions smoothly and reliably. When time means something, graphical one-click installers are kinda nice, and because the hardware--Powerbooks are sweet--isn't as well supported in other OSes. I use Linux on my desktop. Why? Because I like the software available, I know my way around it, and I find myself more productive in it. I also code for Linux, so it's important I have a machine that runs what I write. I run FreeBSD on my server. Why? Because it runs faster and more reliably on the old hardware I have, and generally requires fewer software patches than Linux. I used to run OpenBSD on that machine, in fact, but found the performance hit wasn't worth it. However, I chose OpenBSD for embedded access-point use, because of the few patches needed--upgrading software on a 25MB diskonmodule is a bitch--and the excellent VPN impelementation.

      So you can see, there are reasons for using each OS in it's own environment. Tell me differently.

    18. Re:The purpose of this story? by name773 · · Score: 1

      i'm one of those kids in high school who's a developer and wants a developer's os, not a mainstream, easy-to-use, fragmented, bloated os. besides, the microkernel is more stable.

    19. Re:The purpose of this story? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So if "the microkernel" is more stable, why are you switching to FreeBSD?

      I politely suggest that if you don't know WTF you are talking about, just shut up and try to learn something. Making snide remarks about "a mainstream, easy-to-use, fragmented, bloated os" when you obviously don't know jack is just stupid.

      That's high school kids for you though. Always think they know everything. Happy to let everyone know, too.

    20. Re:The purpose of this story? by name773 · · Score: 1

      dangit... oh well. thanks for the pointers.
      i just hope linux stays away from what mandrake has become (slow).

  4. Free/Net/OpenBSD may not be dead by Micro$will · · Score: 0, Redundant

    But I have to admit this is funny...

    DEAD OPERATING SYSTEM SKETCH Cast:
    Mr. Praline: John Cleese
    Shop Owner: Michael Palin

    A customer enters an operating system shop.

    Mr. Praline: 'Ello, I wish to register a complaint. (The owner does not respond.)
    Mr. Praline: 'Ello, Miss?
    Owner: What do you mean "miss"?
    Mr. Praline: I'm sorry, I have a cold. I wish to make a complaint!
    Owner: We're closin' for lunch.
    Mr. Praline: Never mind that, my lad. I wish to complain about this operating system what I purchased not half an hour ago from this very boutique.
    Owner: Oh yes, the, uh, *BSD...What's,uh...What's wrong with it?
    Mr. Praline: I'll tell you what's wrong with it, my lad. It's dead, that's what's wrong with it!
    Owner: No, no, it's uh,...it's resting.
    Mr. Praline: Look, matey, I know a dead operating system when I see one, and I'm looking at one right now.
    Owner: No no it's not dead, it's, it's restin'! Remarkable OS, *BSD, idn'it, ay? Beautiful kernel!
    Mr. Praline: The kernel don't enter into it. It's stone dead.
    Owner: Nononono, no, no! It's resting!
    Mr. Praline: All right then, if it's restin', I'll wake it up! (bashes at the keyboard) 'Ello, Mister *BSD! I've got a lovely fresh kernel update for you if you show...

    (owner hits the keys)

    Owner: There, it spewed some debug output to the command line!
    Mr. Praline: No, it didn't, that was you hitting the keys!
    Owner: I never!!
    Mr. Praline: Yes, you did!
    Owner: I never, never did anything...
    Mr. Praline: (yelling and typing into the console repeatedly) 'ELLO COMMAND PROMPT!!!!! Testing! Testing! Testing! Testing! This is your nine o'clock cron job!

    (Rips out hard drive from computer case and thumps it on the counter. Shoves it back inside the case and reboots the system - blank screen.)

    Mr. Praline: Now that's what I call a dead operating system.
    Owner: No, no.....No, it's stunned!
    Mr. Praline: STUNNED?!?
    Owner: Yeah! You stunned it, just as it was finishing an I/O task! *BSD stuns easily, major.
    Mr. Praline: Um...now look...now look, mate, I've definitely 'ad enough of this. That operating system is definitely deceased, and when I purchased it not 'alf an hour ago, you assured me that its total lack of responsiveness was due to it bein' in the process of recompiling itself after a particularly comprehensive code update.
    Owner: Well, it's...it's, ah...probably pining for some dilettante dabbling.
    Mr. Praline: PININ' for some DILETTANTE DABBLING?!?!?!? What kind of talk is that? Look, why did it fall flat on its back the moment I started Emacs?
    Owner: *BSD prefers swapping everything out to the hard drive! Remarkable variant, id'nit, squire? Lovely kernel!
    Mr. Praline: Look, I took the liberty of examining the system when I got it home, and I discovered the only reason that it had been printing any text at all to the screen was because of all the WORRYING COMPILER WARNINGS encountered while it was being rebuilt.

    (pause)

    Owner: Well, o'course it was spitting out those warnings! If I hadn't updated the kernel with an unstable development build, you might have had your FTP server compromised [slashdot.org], and VOOM! Bye bye to your business.
    Mr. Praline: "Server"?!? Mate, this OS wouldn't "serve" if you put four million volts through it! It's bleedin' demised!
    Owner: No no! It's pining!
    Mr. Praline: It's not pinin'! It's passed on! This OS is no more! It has ceased to be! It's expired and gone to meet its maker! [lemis.com] It's a stiff! Bereft of life, it rests in peace! It's kicked the bucket, it's shuffled off its mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir inv

    1. Re:Free/Net/OpenBSD may not be dead by gonaddespammed.com · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      How bored were you?

    2. Re:Free/Net/OpenBSD may not be dead by Artega+VH · · Score: 2, Informative

      I call karma whore

      I can't find the original source though... pity...

      --
      groklaw, wired and slashdot. The holy trinity of work based time wasting.
    3. Re:Free/Net/OpenBSD may not be dead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't find the original source though... pity...

      The original source? Monty Python?

    4. Re:Free/Net/OpenBSD may not be dead by noselasd · · Score: -1, Offtopic

      This is funny because of ... ??

    5. Re:Free/Net/OpenBSD may not be dead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it's monthy python, and it claims *BSD us dead. clearly, it's one of the pinacles of /. humor

    6. Re:Free/Net/OpenBSD may not be dead by kace · · Score: 1

      This is funny because it is an adaptation of an hilarious Monty Python sketch in which the John Cleese character is trying to return a dead parrot to the pet shop. If you've ever seen it before then you probably sprayed Coke through your nose when reading this.

      Now back on-topic, this story is a re-run, it comes up again every few months and is exactly the same. What we all need are bots to repost our old comments whenever "Netcraft" and "BSD" appear in the same story summary.

      And, BSD rules. (ruleZ! -- ? or that too linuxey?)

    7. Re:Free/Net/OpenBSD may not be dead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funny don't get you no karma, foo.

    8. Re:Free/Net/OpenBSD may not be dead by DeezyChee · · Score: -1

      Yes, very informative asshole. It's old as hell, but since noone posts it but trolls, nobody ever sees it. I think Micro$will should be modded up to +5 Ballsy.

      To add insult to injury, no only can you not gain karma with Funny, you can still lose karma by being modded down.

    9. Re:Free/Net/OpenBSD may not be dead by noselasd · · Score: 1

      I have seen the sketch, and I agree, it's funny as hell.
      This however, did not make me laugh.
      As for bots posting to *BSD stories !? Grow up goddamnit.

    10. Re:Free/Net/OpenBSD may not be dead by reverius · · Score: 1

      from march 24, 04 ... http://bsd.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=101573&cid =8656078

      it's not that old, and it's an AC post... i'd bet that's taken from somewhere else, though google turned up nothing.

    11. Re:Free/Net/OpenBSD may not be dead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Here is some wisdom to ponder:
      Fact: *BSD is dying
    12. Re:Free/Net/OpenBSD may not be dead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Monty Python is certainly the source of all wisdom. (I'm not sarcastic.)

  5. You know what's *really* dead? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Troll

    Stupid ass BSD is DEAD jokes.

    They
    stopped
    being
    funny
    when
    BSD
    died

    1. Re:You know what's *really* dead? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      A BSD troll is like a retarded kid with a xylophone.

  6. pair Networks by rixstep · · Score: 4, Interesting

    pair have been using it all along. They've got well over 100,000 domains running. They're but one company.

    Oh yeah - Apple's another...

  7. so, umm.. by gl4ss · · Score: 2, Funny

    does this mean that domain hijackers/squatters use openbsd? They sure could use the security anyways..

    what a pointless story!

    --
    world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
  8. What we need by krist0 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    is to be able to moderate an entire story as a troll.

    --
    all you are, is all you are, i'm so sorry for you.
  9. Trolls rarely be where expected by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Interestingly enough, stories that would seem to be obvious troll fodder don't seem to attract all that much troll interest.

    Go figure.

    1. Re:Trolls rarely be where expected by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Troll
      Not enough trolling in this thread? How about my homage to KING P? Ahem...
      I AM KING OF THE P-FUNK PEOPLE (score:-1,troll)

      YOU CANNOT STOP ME

  10. Developer laments: What Killed FreeBSD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Troll
    The End of FreeBSD

    [ed. note: in the following text, former FreeBSD developer Mike Smith gives his reasons for abandoning FreeBSD]

    When I stood for election to the FreeBSD core team nearly two years ago, many of you will recall that it was after a long series of debates during which I maintained that too much organisation, too many rules and too much formality would be a bad thing for the project.

    Today, as I read the latest discussions on the future of the FreeBSD project, I see the same problem; a few new faces and many of the old going over the same tired arguments and suggesting variations on the same worthless schemes. Frankly I'm sick of it.

    FreeBSD used to be fun. It used to be about doing things the right way. It used to be something that you could sink your teeth into when the mundane chores of programming for a living got you down. It was something cool and exciting; a way to spend your spare time on an endeavour you loved that was at the same time wholesome and worthwhile.

    It's not anymore. It's about bylaws and committees and reports and milestones, telling others what to do and doing what you're told. It's about who can rant the longest or shout the loudest or mislead the most people into a bloc in order to legitimise doing what they think is best. Individuals notwithstanding, the project as a whole has lost track of where it's going, and has instead become obsessed with process and mechanics.

    So I'm leaving core. I don't want to feel like I should be "doing something" about a project that has lost interest in having something done for it. I don't have the energy to fight what has clearly become a losing battle; I have a life to live and a job to keep, and I won't achieve any of the goals I personally consider worthwhile if I remain obligated to care for the project.

    Discussion

    I'm sure that I've offended some people already; I'm sure that by the time I'm done here, I'll have offended more. If you feel a need to play to the crowd in your replies rather than make a sincere effort to address the problems I'm discussing here, please do us the courtesy of playing your politics openly.

    From a technical perspective, the project faces a set of challenges that significantly outstrips our ability to deliver. Some of the resources that we need to address these challenges are tied up in the fruitless metadiscussions that have raged since we made the mistake of electing officers. Others have left in disgust, or been driven out by the culture of abuse and distraction that has grown up since then. More may well remain available to recruitment, but while the project is busy infighting our chances for successful outreach are sorely diminished.

    There's no simple solution to this. For the project to move forward, one or the other of the warring philosophies must win out; either the project returns to its laid-back roots and gets on with the work, or it transforms into a super-organised engineering project and executes a brilliant plan to deliver what, ultimately, we all know we want.

    Whatever path is chosen, whatever balance is struck, the choosing and the striking are the important parts. The current indecision and endless conflict are incompatible with any sort of progress.

    Trying to dissect the above is far beyond the scope of any parting shot, no matter how distended. All I can really ask of you all is to let go of the minutiae for a moment and take a look at the big picture. What is the ultimate goal here? How can we get there with as little overhead as possible? How would you like to be treated by your fellow travellers?

    Shouts

    To the Slashdot "BSD is dying" crowd - big deal. Death is part of the cycle; take a look at your soft, pallid bodies and consider that right this very moment, parts of you are dying. See? It's not so bad.

    To the bulk of the FreeBSD committerbase and the developer community at large - keep your eyes on the real goals. I

  11. I have.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    1 machine that runs Mac OSX (a Powerbook)
    1 machine that runs Windows 2000 (games machine)
    1 machine that runs FreeBSD (workhorse server)
    1 machine that runs BeOS 5 (old machine, not seriously used)

    I consider all of the above to be "best of breed" operating systems. Linux absolutely blows because of the fragmented userbase. I have a hard time caring about it because of the thousand different distributions all doing things differently.

    FreeBSD beats the crap out of Linux for:

    * Ease of use - extremely well documented, everything is logically organised
    * Reliability - they.. shock.. *test* before they release! (unlike Fedora's GRUB which nuked my drive when I tried it)
    * Compatibility - the ports tree is fantastic, plus it runs Linux executables

    In short: FreeBSD is great. If you've ever become frustrated with Linux, give it a try. I guarantee you'll love it!

    1. Re:I have.. by Korpo · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Well, well...

      My FreeBSD install died on a PII machine when trying to install a considerable amount of packages (not ports) - who tested that? ;)

      Why should I use a Linux compatibility layer if I can simply stick to Linux? (what all the apps where developed for anyway)

      Oh, and shame to all Linux distributions, because you had a problem with one program for one distribution!

      Hail to anecdotical evidence! ;)

      Guess what: Doing Linux drivers, Linux on embedded hardware, Linux administration, and Linux application programming gives me a job. Doing all of these things for *BSD, guess what it gives me??? A nice luke-warm thank-you! Go figure...

      Linux: More drivers, more ready-to-run software, more choices, more developers, more community, more mailing lists, more innovation on the application level (virtually none of the FOSS apps are primarily targetted on BSD). Less code throw-away to Apple (OS X - FreeBSD) and Microsoft (Unix Services for Windows - OpenBSD). More books. More preinstalled computers. More platforms to run productive on (not proof-of-concept as NetBSD - kudos, though). More future, way more future.

    2. Re:I have.. by n0dez · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Which packages did you try to install?

      Why should I be using a Unix-clone (aka Linux distribution) when there's FreeBSD?

      Wrong! Not all apps are being developed for a Linux distro. In fact, Firefox is being developed in Windows and later is ported to other OSes. Apache is being developed in FreeBSD. Most Linux distributions (if not all) are using many stuff from FreeBSD and saying it's a Linux app and not saying where it comes from. Nasty, uh? GNU doesn't have everything so they have to take some userland tools from other OSes (*BSD mostly).

      One problem with one Linux distribution? Wrong, gnorw, wrong! The latest version of the Linux kernel has a very annoying bug... it doesn't detect correctly your hd's geometry and messes it up so you can't boot up Windows. So using ANY Linux distro with that kernel will give you problems. Maybe RMS introduced it as he wants everything to be GPL... a monopoly in the open source world! So, like Nas says in his "You can" song, read more learn!

      Well, there are FreeBSD developers working on FreeBSD and getting paid for that. John Hubbard, Poul-Henning Kamp, etc.

      Linux: more unstable drivers, some stable drivers taken from FreeBSD, fragmented distributions, what it works on Linux distro A might not work on Linux distro B (even using the same package management like RPM!), full of politics, etc.

      Virtually none of the FOSS apps are primarily targed on *BSD? Uhmm... once again, read more learn. It seems you don't give a damn about *BSD. It's OK, but please don't talk about something you don't know you. Thanks to BSD Unix and its friendly licence the TCP/IP (and the Internet) was born. Many commands you use on your lovely Linux distro have been taken from FreeBSD, vi was born BSD Unix, Apache was born on FreeBSD, XFree86 was born on FreeBSD, etc. Go get a O'Reilly book about Linux and you'll read... what's a Linux distribution? Linux distribution = Linux kernel + GNU tools + BSD tools.
      Repeat with me... read more learn, you don't have to be gangstas, ...

    3. Re:I have.. by Nighttime · · Score: 4, Informative

      One problem with one Linux distribution? Wrong, gnorw, wrong! The latest version of the Linux kernel has a very annoying bug... it doesn't detect correctly your hd's geometry and messes it up so you can't boot up Windows. So using ANY Linux distro with that kernel will give you problems. Maybe RMS introduced it as he wants everything to be GPL... a monopoly in the open source world! So, like Nas says in his "You can" song, read more learn!

      Actually, it's the Windows installer that writes the incorrect partition table. When the Linux installer comes along it writes out a correct partition table that then prevents Windows from booting. But don't let the facts get in the way of a rant. :)

      --
      I've got a fever and the only prescription is more COBOL.
    4. Re:I have.. by phrasebook · · Score: 1

      But don't let the facts get in the way of a rant

      And don't you let Linux get in the way of blaming Windows when something goes wrong :-)

      Whether or not it's Windows' fault, you gotta deal with what's likely to happen. And I think you guys are referring to Fedora 2 - they should've tested that shit and accomodated the bug before release.

    5. Re:I have.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1

      * Ease of use -- yeah, FreeBSD is SO much easier for a newcomer than Lycoris, Linspire or Mandrake, isn't it?

      * Reliability -- my Debian and Slackware systems have never, EVER crashed. Don't use one bug-ridden constantly-beta distro to reflect on ALL Linux. Solid Linux distros like Debian are nearly invincible, with a MUCH larger testing community than FreeBSD's. Plus, releases are supported by the security team for over two years; meanwhile, FreeBSD releases are supported only for 12 measly months.

      * Compatibility -- FreeBSD doesn't even approach Linux for widespread x86 hardware support, particularly on laptops.

    6. Re:I have.. by Korpo · · Score: -1, Flamebait
      Thanks to BSD Unix and its friendly licence the TCP/IP (and the Internet) was born.

      Well, aren't we going a bit back in history to praise *BSD? It's like saying *BSD's biggest achievements are already in the past. ;)

      Your "friendly license" is actually feeding Microsoft with free (as in no cost) code for killing Unix.

      I guess this issue is much more "killing *BSD" than anything else. And *BSD developers seem to happily sit and wait for it to happen, because they don't seem to care about anything outside their little cocoons, at least that's the impression I get from coverage on kerneltrap.org.

      Of course, as long as most of the *BSD guys sit on their laurels or develop for niches, and bathe in their historic glory, they will eventually become completely obsolete. Without the competition from Linux the *BSD developers wouldn't even care... Nothing worse than those youngsters dethroning the graybeards, that want to control who's allowed to play and who not.

      Enough about trolling the flamebait! My point was actually: The guy in the original post had some points of anecdotical evidence, and I was responding on his level, clearly and quickly attracting your answer - which will be triggering an angry response to the first part of my post, condescending as can be. Isn't that "slashdotty"?

      Frankly I do not care whether someone uses FreeBSD or Linux, they seem equally usable. I'm using Debian GNU/Linux, and it administers quite similarly to FreeBSD, and I simply looked into it first. Since me and my friends simply favor hardware support, FreeBSD is ruled out. I didn't buy a 3D graphics adapter for nothing, for example.

      BTW, the figure of 2 million active sites does sound a bit more impressive than it actually is. When looking into their current survey you see 20 million sites, ~70% running Apache. So most sites aren't running FreeBSD, and it would be interesting if they listed "market share", not total numbers. Maybe totals still go up, but market share is sinking, or both rise. You cannot extract that (quickly) from the charts.

      Nothing easier than getting the *BSD crowd angry...

    7. Re:I have.. by n0dez · · Score: 1

      Well, thanks to something that happened in the past there's the Internet today and anyone using any OS can connect to it. Isn't that nice?

      Not all FreeBSD users and developers think the same way. You may find some using both a Linux distribution and FreeBSD, some are friendly, etc. It's pretty much the same story as with many other things. This is not a religion. Please don't generalize.

    8. Re:I have.. by javax · · Score: 1

      ...because they don't seem to care about anything outside their little cocoons...
      yep, but this seems to be more liberal then the linux zealots crusade against everyone else. BSD does not force you.
      This is all like comparing Ghandi to Dschinghis Kahn . The empire of Dschinghis was for sure larger and had more soldiers, but that doesnt make Dschengis a nicer person, does it.
      We all know the GPL was born out of anger and frustration...

    9. Re:I have.. by Korpo · · Score: 2, Informative

      BTW, AFAIK Unix wasn't the 1st system with Internet connection:

      Then, in 1980, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency needed a team to implement its brand-new TCP/IP protocol stack on the VAX under Unix. The PDP-10s that powered the ARPANET at that time were aging, and indications that DEC might be forced to cancel the 10 in order to support the VAX were already in the air. DARPA considered contracting DEC to implement TCP/IP, but rejected that idea because they were concerned that DEC might not be responsive to requests for changes in their proprietary VAX/VMS operating system [Libes-Ressler]. Instead, DARPA chose Berkeley Unix as a platform -- explicitly because its source code was available and unencumbered [Leonard]. Berkeley's Computer Science Research Group was in the right place at the right time with the strongest development tools; the result became arguably the most critical turning point in Unix's history since its invention. Until the TCP/IP implementation was released with Berkeley 4.2 in 1983, Unix had had only the weakest networking support. Early experiments with Ethernet were unsatisfactory. An ugly but serviceable facility called UUCP (Unix to Unix Copy Program) had been developed at Bell Labs for distributing software over conventional telephone lines via modem.[16] UUCP could forward Unix mail between widely separated machines, and (after Usenet was invented in 1981) supported Usenet, a distributed bulletin-board facility that allowed users to broadcast text messages to anywhere that had phone lines and Unix systems.
      (taken from "The Art of Unix Programming" by Eric S. Raymond)

      Of course nobody is giving VMS any credit no matter what it accomplishes anyway ... ;)

      Guess you're in for a history lesson, too.

    10. Re:I have.. by kjd · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Ease of use" (also "user-friendliness") should not be confused with "short learning curve" or "newbie-friendliness". FreeBSD is extremely easy for me to use, as an experienced user, and that is currently FreeBSD's largest target audience. Moreso for OpenBSD, which gets many "too hard to install" and similar complaints. It is easy to install when you know what you're doing. Making it more intuitive to newcomers to Unix-like OSes is not a priority for them, because it is written for and by hackers/professionals, and a very large userbase would overwhelm the small development team anyhow.

      Your other two points do seem to be true. Linux in my experience has in general been reliable for a long time, and a wider variety of hardware (especially niche hardware like particular laptop support, etc). It should be noted that although FreeBSD's security team only publically commits to a year's worth of updates, older versions than this are normally updated when they are affected. It is also relatively simple to upgrade FreeBSD. This definitely does not compare with the commitment of support for other commercial Unix OSes (Solaris, AIX, etc) however.

    11. Re:I have.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This post is filled with much non-factual material I can't believe it actually has a 5 rating.

    12. Re:I have.. by Korpo · · Score: 1

      This is actually funny.

      When looking at the Linux kernel mailing list digest at kerneltrap.org, I see no hostility vs. the BSDs. When looking at the OpenBSD posts, I see a lot of hostility towards Linux.

      The attitude on the OpenBSD mailing list, or at least some of its subscribers, seems to be like this:

      "I'd say it's more of a direct consequence of Linux kernel developers inability to live without hardware-accelerated 3D to play Quake or whatever. Yet another reason I'm using OpenBSD."
      (Marsh J. Ray, Wed, 02 Jun 2004 09:25:10 -0400)
      Try running a Nvidia or ATI or Atheros or one of many other cards on Linux without using a binary module. The existance and use of these is a direct consequence of Linux's cop-out lassez-faire attitude in allowing them.
      (Damien Miller, Wed, 02 Jun 2004 22:38:45 +1000)

      This is not exactly Ghandi-style. These are at best mini-Dschinghis Khans griping with the fact, that Linus' operating system is more successful than theirs. These are comments of the style: We are, we were, and we will be superior, and the rest is not-invented-here.

      These fine specimens of the mailing list seem to show, that there's enough zealotry in BSD already, and no reason to point a finger at Linux.

      While this surely not presents the total community of OpenBSD, or BSD as a whole, this somehow puts your previous post to shame, doesn't it?

    13. Re:I have.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      The performance leader in open source now is Linux 2.6. It really smokes the rest of the pack, particularly in SMP. Neither OpenBSD or NetBSD pretend to do SMP well. FreeBSD has yet to get there, despite repeated attempts. Currently KSE threads in FreeBSD is broken and performs poorly as documented in FreeBSD's own mailing list freebsd-hackers.

      In reality FreeBSD only supports one "tier one" platform - ia32. Alpha support is about to be dropped as is Sparc. AMD64 support is not there either. Although they keep trying, published benchmarks show FreeBSD on AMD64 only offers half the performance of a comparable Linux setup, and of course threads are broken on AMD64.

      In all honesty, the various BSDs have so far struggled futilely to obtain parity in performance with current Linux offerings. It has been a long, long time since any BSD stood out in documented performance.

    14. Re:I have.. by ci4 · · Score: 1

      Go and try SMP in NetBSD-current and then post...

      Running Fedora/Core 2 on dual Athlon MP2800, as well as dual Opteron 242; comparing with NetBSD-current (2.0F nowadays) - give me NetBSD any day. You don't want to see the numbers.

      And yes, FreeBSD 5.2.1 works fine on AMD64 as well. It was a bit inconlusive compared to NetBSD, but you might like better the FreeBSD install CD giving you the minimum startup packages; with NetBSD-current you install the OS proper in, like, 5 minutes and then spend quite a bit of time compiling from pkgsrc.

      SMP is down in the priorities list of the OpenBSD developers, even if recently there have been some advances. Anyway, all it takes to setup an OpenBSD firewall from scratch is 15 minutes... and then just forget it is there ( I have about 5-6 deployed with customers - and not a single call related to them! ).

    15. Re:I have.. by Zero+Sum · · Score: 1
      Of course nobody is giving VMS any credit no matter what it accomplishes anyway ... ;)

      What accomplishment for VMS does your post/quote show? None as far as I can see...

      Guess you're in for a history lesson, too.

      Maybe. But you are going to have to learn to read before you can take a 'history' lesson.

      FWIW, it isn't history to me, just part of my life's experience.

      --

      Zero Sum (don't amount to much). [root@localhost]

    16. Re:I have.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      We should all strive to comprehend the truth:
      Fact: *BSD is dying
    17. Re:I have.. by Korpo · · Score: 1

      Don't give lessons and advice, if you have none to offer - especially about reading:

      An earlier post was claiming that the Internet was created on BSD. While without any doubt the TCP/IP stack was, one can argue the Internet existed before, in form of the ARPANET, powered by DEC VMS workstations.

      By actually reading the post and the former post you could have extracted that information - if you wanted.

      Undoubtedly the TCP/IP stack was instrumental to the widespread use of the Internet - but that wasn't what I was replying to, was I? ;)

      Besides, another, earlier post tried to make the point, that I should read some O'Reilly (or whatever other publisher) books to update my history knowledge... Well that's crap.

      Not because of the idea - One could quite well spend his time studying computing history with books really focused on the topic, like Salus' book. But normally O'Reilly and other books of similar series from other publishers are bought and read mostly for teaching practical knowledge, not history.

      Besides, whatever historical knowledge (or life's experience) one may have with BSD, it does not touch the fact whether BSD is worthwhile today in any way. It does not change the technological viability, or the commercial success, or anything besides one's own attitude about BSD. Frankly said, in this context history doesn't matter.

      What BSD should be more worried about, is that Linus' Torvalds and his gang of merry kernel hackers made a technological comparable kernel in the time from 1991 till now, and BSD, finally unencumbered since 1993 (IIRC the Novell/USL settlement's date with BSD), starting with a fully featured UNIX kernel, wasn't able to outpace Linux.

      Recent single-processor benchmarking I read, FreeBSD and Linux (both most recent versions) scale quite similarly with increasing load (mostly constant both) - NetBSD and OpenBSD couldn't compare.

      I wouldn't bet that FreeBSD would compare equally on multi-processor systems, especially because of its less finer-grained locking (as I've honestly admit I've only been told). I've further been told, that FreeBSD doesn't scale up 16-32 processors, as Linux does. On both these statements I'm more than willing to be corrected, because I'm only referring to memory here.

      Oh, and BTW:
      Besides, OpenVMS is the most stable and reliable clustering system currently available. You may have read something similar the last year around.

    18. Re:I have.. by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 1

      Brave Sir.
      I salute you!

      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
  12. question for all the BSD users by bersl2 · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Have you submitted interesting BSD stories and had them rejected?

    1. Re:question for all the BSD users by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Personally, I believe in using the right tool for the job... Which means it could be windows, it could be FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD or Linux.

      Overall, OpenBSD is my favorite. So if/when I submit a story, it's to undeadly.org and not slashdot.

    2. Re:question for all the BSD users by sumbry · · Score: 1

      Yes. I submitted this same story like 4-5 months ago and had it rejected.

    3. Re:question for all the BSD users by bersl2 · · Score: 1

      This story is insultingly non-news toward BSD---not intentionally, though.

      Interviews are real stories. Releases are real stories. These stories that are completely predicated on stats generally go over like lead balloons anyway.

      Maybe it was just the way that the submitter worded everything. References to trolls don't belong in the headline. Ever.

  13. Uptimes by n0dez · · Score: 4, Informative

    FreeBSD and BSD/OS are beating any OS. Just visit Sites with longest running systems by average uptime.

    1. Re:Uptimes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Sigh. Linux, Solaris and some other UNIX variants wrap their uptime counters at 497 days -- so they CAN'T be on that list.

      It's not remotely an indication of FreeBSD's quality.

    2. Re:Uptimes by kayumi · · Score: 4, Funny

      That's nothing compared to the downtimes. I have a 200Mhz notebook running FreeBSD 3.5 which I haven't switched on once these last two years. (Most likely because I dropped it and the screen stopped working).

    3. Re:Uptimes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why exactly do they wrap their uptime anyway? It would seem to me that a system which would report an uptime would at least do it consistently no matter how long the system had been up. I don't know about Solaris or whatever, but what exactly is Linux's excuse?

    4. Re:Uptimes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's a simple overlow problem. Essentialy at 497 days (or whatever the cutoff is), the unsigned 32-bit number reaches its max point and "resets" itself to 0. Now, you might be wondering which 32-bit number I'm referring to. Well, Netcraft uses the timestamping component of the TCP/IP header to figure out most of the reported uptimes. The timestamping component starts at 0 when the machine is first booted, and every X milliseconds it gets incremented (The X varies from platform to platform). If you google, you'll uncover more.

    5. Re:Uptimes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      > Sigh. Linux, Solaris and some other UNIX variants wrap their uptime counters at 497 days -- so they CAN'T be on that list.

      For those who just can't be bothered to check out their FAQ:

      "What is 'Uptime' ?

      The 'uptime' as presented in these reports is the "time since last reboot" of the front end computer or computers that are hosting a site. We can detect this by looking at the data that we record when we sample a site. We can detect how long the responding computer(s) hosting a web site has been running, and by recording these samples over a long period of time we can plot graphs that show this as a line. Note that this is not the same as the availability of a site."

      Sounds like they're accounting for the wraparound.

    6. Re:Uptimes by SillyNickName4me · · Score: 1

      > It's not remotely an indication of FreeBSD's quality.

      Nah, a counter that wraps where it shouldn't isn't lack fo quality, I agree.
      (not that it is a big issue btw)

    7. Re:Uptimes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      " Sigh. Linux, Solaris and some other UNIX variants wrap their uptime counters at 497 days -- so they CAN'T be on that list.

      It's not remotely an indication of FreeBSD's quality."

      Umm, ok, so 497 days is what, say roughly 1.5years. Linux has been around for 10+ years, same for solaris, hpux...

      So in 10 years Linux/Solaris/HPUX have not been able to *fix* a counter... and I'm supposed to believe its about "quality" code?

    8. Re:Uptimes by nicolas.e · · Score: 1

      And why would they ``fix'' their uptime counters ? It's not remotely important.

      And uptime is not significant anyway. I could get 1400 days uptime out of Windows ME, if I keep it idle and isolated...

    9. Re:Uptimes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh yeah, and new FreeBSD's have an uptime counter that wraps too. Umm, err, ok, umm, say, umm, err, ok, so, they, umm, actually had, err a working, umm, version, umm which they then, umm, err, *broke*... and, umm, I'm, ok, supposed, umm, to, err, believe, umm its [sic], err, about, umm "quality", err, umm, err, code, err?

  14. Anatomy of a Failure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Troll
    When it comes to the subject of operating systems, most of us can agree on at least one thing, and that is the simple plain truth that *BSD is dying. But the deeper question is why? Why did *BSD fail?

    Once you get past the fact that *BSD is fragmented between a myriad of incompatible kernels, there is the historical record of failure and of failed operating systems. *BSD experienced moderate success about 15 years ago in academic circles. Since then it has been in steady decline. We all know *BSD keeps losing market share but why? Is it the problematic personalities of many of the key players? Or is it larger than their troubled personae?

    The record is clear on one thing: no operating system has ever come back from the grave. Efforts to resuscitate *BSD are one step away from spiritualists wishing to communicate with the dead. As the situation grows more desperate for the adherents of this doomed OS, the sorrow takes hold. An unremitting gloom hangs like a death shroud over a once hopeful *BSD community. That hope is long gone, replaced by an inconsolable despair. A mournful, plaintive nostalgia has settled in. Now is the end time for *BSD.

  15. FreeBSD in a nutshell by n0dez · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's a complete OS.
    It's not a clone.
    Everything runs faster.
    It doesn't mess up with your MBR.
    It does not come with a particular browser pre-installed.
    It's always fun to run FreeBSD.

    1. Re:FreeBSD in a nutshell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a complete OS. - So are all the Linux + GNU combos

      It's not a clone. - Eh? Dunno what that means.

      Everything runs faster. - Feels zippy for sure, but nothing really runs much faster, most stuff all the same

      It doesn't mess up with your MBR. - of course it does. It has to boot doesn't it?

      It does not come with a particular browser pre-installed. - Eh? You can choose to install a browser when you install FreeBSD just as you can with Debian or anything else. Do or don't, up to you.

      Not much argument there... but FreeBSD is a sweet system and has that coolness factor over Linux.

    2. Re:FreeBSD in a nutshell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Flamebait

      Faster? Linux 2.6 obliterates FreeBSD, both on SMP systems and on desktops. Plus, Debian is a complete OS. Slackware is a complete OS. Mandrake is a complete OS. Stop trying to confuse things.

    3. Re:FreeBSD in a nutshell by n0dez · · Score: 1

      Linux by itself is not a complete OS. You need GNU tools + BSD tools to have a complete OS.

      Linux is a Unix-clone.

      Most stuff isn't the same. The FreeBSD OS is not the same as the Linux kernel and GNU tools. It boots up much faster, shutdowns much faster, and, generally speaking, most apps run faster.

      When I was saying it doesn't come with a particular browser pre-installed I was referring to Windows. ;)

      Yes, the songs found in the FreeBSD songbook are funny.

      The BSD daemon is much cooler than the penguin.

    4. Re:FreeBSD in a nutshell by n0dez · · Score: 1

      You're saying it by yourself. Linux itself is not a complete OS. It's just a kernel. There's no problem about saying how things really are. IMHO, FreeBSD is much faster than any OS for PCs. If you wanna see it by yourself, just try it. It's free. ;)
      www.freebsd.org

    5. Re:FreeBSD in a nutshell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When I ran it, it felt realllllly slow. The filesystem is really solid, but lacking in the speed department, I prefer ReiserFS.

    6. Re:FreeBSD in a nutshell by n0dez · · Score: 2, Funny

      Uhm... If FreeBSD is realllly slow, then it's time buy a new computer.

    7. Re:FreeBSD in a nutshell by dru · · Score: 1

      turn on soft updates (umount /your/fs ; tunefs -n enable /your/fs)

    8. Re:FreeBSD in a nutshell by DashEvil · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Linux 2.6 does not obliterate FreeBSD.

      The last benchmarks I saw (Linux 2.6 vrs. FreeBSD 5.x) proved them to be simular performance wise.

      Stop mischaracterizing the parent posters argument. Their argument was that Linux isn't a complete OS, not that Mandrake or Slackware isn't.

      Personally, I'm pro FreeBSD, for reasons that are my own. You can cry and whine about it all you want, but if you are to critize my OS choice at least use facts.

      --
      -If God wanted people to be better than me, he would have made them that way.
    9. Re:FreeBSD in a nutshell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      From my experience, FreeBSD is slower, albeit only marginally: I've been running apache and squid from FreeBSD for the past month or so, but I'm planning to switch back to Slackware when I get the time.

      And while I appreciate the value of FreeBSD--I like its start-up script placement, its ports system, its feel of efficiency--I do not like its less than stellar hardware support. While poor hardware support was a problem in Linux (for me at least) seven years ago when I first started using it, it is no longer an issue: everything I have is correctly detected in Linux. Not everything is correctly detected in FreeBSD.

      So, the only advantages FreeBSD has over some Linux distributions are its init scripts, its ease of upgrade, and its uniformity. Slackware uses *BSD style init scripts. Using slackgrade I can update my installed packages. And I am willing to sacrifice uniformity for a larger selection of software.

      If there wasn't Slackware, maybe I'd use FreeBSD. Or maybe I'd use Gentoo ;).

    10. Re:FreeBSD in a nutshell by xoboots · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Stop mischaracterizing the parent posters argument. Their argument was that Linux isn't a complete OS, not that Mandrake or Slackware isn't.

      Does it occur to you that that is a frivolous point? So FreeBSD is a big monolith whereas we can create any custom OS using the Linux kernel + various tools (which turns out to be a blessing for embedded and limited systems). I think the original poster was trying to slag "Linux" because it was "just a kernel" whereas FreeBSD is a "full-blown OS". But that's putting one's head in one's ass because nearly anyone using the Linux kernel will be doing so from a fully packaged OS like Debian or Slackware, etc. Saying otherwise is the subterfuge.

      And don't tell me that the "Linux" factions are more fragmented because of the amazing variety of choices available. Most things are standardized or on their way. Besides, is it not true that FreeBSD/OpenBSD/NetBSD et al represent factions on the BSD side? I do agree that BSD is mostly better in those regards, though.

      Please don't get me wrong: FreeBSD is a very fine OS. I just don't see why *BSDers feel the need to talk about that "other OS" whenever they bring up their own. Is your OS not worthy of being talked about in its own right? I suggest it is and it would be nice to see discussions that actually followed that ideal for a change. Mainly because in today's world, the old adage that "*BSD is so much better than */Linux" proves to be either false, misleading, or tragically unimportant in significant ways.

      To be honest, I haven't run a *BSD OS in a long while. Mainly because I'm not fond of the license, but that's my own personal preference at play. (And BTW, no matter how good *BSD may ever be or become, some will never, ever use it for this reason alone. Same can be said of */Linux.)

      Cheers!

    11. Re:FreeBSD in a nutshell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope, it's time to compile Gentoo on your system. When you can build a system from scratch, from source, you can fine tune everything for performance. None of this 'built for 386' crap that you find with Red Hat, Debian, or BSD.

    12. Re:FreeBSD in a nutshell by n0dez · · Score: 1

      How funny! If FreeBSD runs realllly slow on that computer, imagine trying to compile Gentoo Linux...

    13. Re:FreeBSD in a nutshell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > The BSD daemon is much cooler than the penguin.

      Tux is just plain gay!

    14. Re:FreeBSD in a nutshell by afroborg · · Score: 1

      you can fine tune everything for performance

      Do you really do this? I doubt it somehow - my mental picture of the average Gentoo user is not someone who tirelessly tweaks compiler settings manually to get the best possible performance. It's someone who runs the generic install/compile scripts and then brags about how they optimised their own system tirelesly on /.

      Gentoo zealots piss me off.

      --
      my sig could kick your sig's arse...
    15. Re:FreeBSD in a nutshell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fact: *BSD is dying.

    16. Re:FreeBSD in a nutshell by bccomm · · Score: 1

      That's not necessarily true. It's quite possible to design a system of GNU components that runs on a *BSD kernel, or port a set of *BSD components to a GNU kernel (GPL'd at least...you know what I mean---from ^that^ particular community). No one ever really does this, but it's not impossible.

    17. Re:FreeBSD in a nutshell by jackrd · · Score: 2, Informative

      For a good example of this, I'd suggest checking into the Debian GNU/FreeBSD project:

      "There are currently two separate efforts for building a Debian distribution based on FreeBSD's kernel. Both are work in progress in experimental stage, and we have not fully decided yet which of them will become the official Debian GNU/FreeBSD."

      -http://www.debian.org/ports/freebsd/index

    18. Re:FreeBSD in a nutshell by jglen490 · · Score: 1

      Tried it. Never worked. Same machine, same setup, other OSes worked out of the box.

    19. Re:FreeBSD in a nutshell by SillyNickName4me · · Score: 1

      Hmm, did you try to do any tuning whatsoever on that machine? Something simple liek loading accf_http and takign a peek at memory usage to make user its not swapping? Also, did you partition your drive such that you have a small seperate root filesystem so you can also use softupdaes on the partition where squid's and Apache's data recides?

      on another note:
      I have run many such configurations, and under very light load, Linux usually outperforms them, but as soon as I actually start using them, they end up being faster.

    20. Re:FreeBSD in a nutshell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And so is your mama, bitch.

      http://zer0.org/daemons/netbsd-feyrer/takeittux. jp g

    21. Re:FreeBSD in a nutshell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      SuSE installation told me it might be risky to install LILO in the MBR. Mandrake 10 told me it was the safest way to do it, and I was so naive that I thought that since this is the latest Mandrake, perhaps it includes a LILO version that works. Well, if messing up my MBR despite telling me it was the safest way is the same as "working", then I guess so. Neither of these two installation programs could install LILO on a diskette.

      FreeBSD sounds interesting all of a sudden.

    22. Re:FreeBSD in a nutshell by Mithrandir_The_Wise · · Score: 0

      Linux 2.6 does not obliterate FreeBSD.

      The last benchmarks I saw (Linux 2.6 vrs. FreeBSD 5.x) proved them to be simular performance wise.


      Links? Citations? Anything to back up this claim?

      No?

      Didn't think so.

  16. very funny. by Eivind · · Score: 4, Insightful
    But, as a matter of fact, if you read the netcraft report you yourself are linking to, then you see that indeed, FreeBSD is significant in webservers largely because a few large hosting-providers use it.

    Quoting the article; The reason for this is FreeBSD's deployment with the operators of shared hosting systems, where tens and even hundreds of thousands of sites are collectively administered as part of a single system.

    Yahoo alone hosts something like a quarter million sites.

    Perhaps this also explains the low media-profile to some degree ? 10000 companies running 25 sites each are likely to collectively generate a lot more buzz than a single site running a quarter million sites.

    1. Re:very funny. by aztektum · · Score: 3, Interesting

      What exactly are you trying to say here?

      That BSD is still dead because it's a small number of individual establishments using it, despite the large amount of systems they run it on?

      2.5 million servers is still a big number, regardless of how spread out it is. Just b/c people say it's dead doesn't mean 2.5 million servers will be changed to Linux tomorrow.

      --
      :: aztek ::
      No sig for you!!
    2. Re:very funny. by Eivind · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Simple.

      I'm saying that with a usage-profile like that. (i.e. not terribly many users, but heavy users) they will tend to get a lot less publicity than they would if the same usage was spread over more users. This migth be part of the explanation for why FreeBSD gets so little attention inspite of doing a nice job for a lot of sites.

    3. Re:very funny. by Brandybuck · · Score: 3, Funny

      You're saying since FreeBSD doesn't have 2.5 million prepubescent screaming nerds running it, the media doesn't pay attention? That sounds like a good thing! In fact, it sounds like a new motto:

      FreeBSD: Move out of your parent's basement!

      --
      Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
    4. Re:very funny. by Eivind · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Hi, don't get so defensive. I'm not trying to diss BSD at all. I'm all in favour of a healthy ecosystem of OSes. My ideal would be a situation where no single OS has a dominant position, that would ensure *real* competition and benefit all.

      Besides, would you stop trolling ? I fail to see why it's of any relevance whatsoever, but I live 2000 km from my parents basement, together with my lovely wife and our yet-unborn son. The kid living in his parents basement is a clichee no more true about Linux than the "4.7 users and dying" clichee about BSD. Get over it.

    5. Re:very funny. by pooh666 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The main point is, that many very large service providers choose to do their shared/virtual hosting on FreeBSD. hmmm, wonder why?? Maybe those very high end network engineers and admins know something.. :)

    6. Re:very funny. by Shonufftheshogun · · Score: 1

      Chill. It was a joke.

  17. Dead like door nail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Troll

    FreeBSD died because linux is sooooo superior.

  18. Breaking news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Troll

    I just heard the sad news on talk radio. *BSD has died.

  19. FreeBSD: Not Exactly Interesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Troll

    quantumice writes "It would seem that despite being dead boring and there only being six of us who read it, Netcraft news has clocked up nearly 1 uninteresting story about FreeBSD. So by my estimates that must mean that I and each of my 5 zealot friends must post this dullard nonsense to Slashdot. That might explain my high bandwidth usage."

  20. Are you serious??? by n0dez · · Score: 2, Informative

    Not all OSes can have those uptimes. BTW, what you're saying about the uptime thing I guess it was resolved in the Linux kernel 2.6.x series.

    1. Re:Are you serious??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Offtopic

      Aren't you tired of these fucking CUNTS that point that wrapping thing out every time someone praises FreeBSDs uptime. Me and you other five should just keep quiet about it. We don't want any twit fanboys interested in BSD anyway.

  21. Question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    I love the way I can build the whole system from source, but I am wanting to try out Linux kernel. Is there a similar Linux system for free? Thanx.

    1. Re:Question by MarcQuadra · · Score: 3, Informative

      Yes, I don't know if you're serious, but Gentoo Linux is a build-from-source Linux distro that has a ports system called 'portage'

      I myself use Gentoo because I prefer Linux over the *BSDs I've tried, but Gentoo lets me build from source VERY easily.

      --
      "Sometimes, I think Trent just needs a cup of hot chocolate and a blankie." -Tori Amos on Nine Inch Nails
    2. Re:Question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gentoo's portage != BSD ports

      Portage is large and overengineered.
      Ports use simple Makefiles.

      Portage changes just about every month.
      Ports hasn't changed in (how many) years.

      Portage uses rsync.
      Ports use cvsup.

      Personally, I think both BSD ports and Gentoo's portage are too complex. I prefer a build system like CRUX or ROCKLinux uses, although ROCK isn't the same as it once was--it too, has seccumbed to complexity.

      You should go to distrowatch.com, and read the "source-distro" section.

    3. Re:Question by Atrus5 · · Score: 1

      I actually switched to Gentoo after using FreeBSD for a couple years. I was mostly motivated by a desire for a 3D-accelerated driver for my Radeon card. I chose Gentoo because it seemed the closest to FreeBSD in terms of philosophy behind use. Using portage via emerge is very similar to using portinstall. The major difference I see is that portage was designed from the ground up for package management while the ports system started life as a collection of makefiles.

      I'm not saying Gentoo is better, but I do prefer it's package system. I've also found that both have very helpful users. Whenever I had a problem in FreeBSD I'd post to a mailing list and get a quick, non-snobby response. My experience in the Gentoo forums has been similarly pleasant.

      Also, both encourage you to build from source with your own compile (and in Gentoo, USE) flags.

      I like both FreeBSD and Gentoo Linux a lot, and encourage users of one to try the other if your interested in the selling points of the other (FreeBSD is known for it's stability, Linux has a lot of devel activity)

  22. Irony by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Your nickname contains the word "Coitus". Something you'll never engage in.

    1. Re:Irony by HolyCoitus · · Score: 1

      Your name contains coward, something I am too! *whimpers*

      --
      That's scary.
  23. Cheers! by funwithBSD · · Score: 2, Funny

    From user 5 of 6.

    --
    Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
    1. Re:Cheers! by name773 · · Score: 1

      Cheers! where everybody knows your name...

    2. Re:Cheers! by linfocito · · Score: 1
      you other five arent FreeBSD developers, are you?

      Because if you are I am the only user.

    3. Re:Cheers! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who is number one?

  24. Monitoring... by alexatrit · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This is all rather dependant on the accuracy of Netcraft. Although most of the FreeBSD systems I maintain are identified correctly by Netcraft, there are several that always come back as unknown. Netcraft OS detections seems to be reasonable, but not perfect. Their webserver detection is as accurate as it can be, but uptime checks seem to be even less perfect.

    --

    Nothing but the finest in meaningless drivel
  25. I guess I must be by josepha48 · · Score: 1

    one of your friends ;-) ..

    --

    Only 'flamers' flame!
    Does slashdot hate my posts?

  26. *BSD is dying by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Troll
    It is official; Netcraft confirms: *BSD is dying

    One more crippling bombshell hit the already beleaguered *BSD community when IDC confirmed that *BSD market share has dropped yet again, now down to less than a fraction of 1 percent of all servers. Coming on the heels of a recent Netcraft survey which plainly states that *BSD has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. *BSD is collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by failing dead last in the recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test.

    You don't need to be a Kreskin to predict *BSD's future. The hand writing is on the wall: *BSD faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for *BSD because *BSD is dying. Things are looking very bad for *BSD. As many of us are already aware, *BSD continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood.

    FreeBSD is the most endangered of them all, having lost 93% of its core developers. The sudden and unpleasant departures of long time FreeBSD developers Jordan Hubbard and Mike Smith only serve to underscore the point more clearly. There can no longer be any doubt: FreeBSD is dying.

    Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.

    OpenBSD leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of OpenBSD. How many users of NetBSD are there? Let's see. The number of OpenBSD versus NetBSD posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 NetBSD users. BSD/OS posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of NetBSD posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of BSD/OS. A recent article put FreeBSD at about 80 percent of the *BSD market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 FreeBSD users. This is consistent with the number of FreeBSD Usenet posts.

    Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, FreeBSD went out of business and was taken over by BSDI who sell another troubled OS. Now BSDI is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house.

    All major surveys show that *BSD has steadily declined in market share. *BSD is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If *BSD is to survive at all it will be among OS dilettante dabblers. *BSD continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, *BSD is dead.

    Fact: *BSD is dying

    1. Re:*BSD is dying by iMilGCU · · Score: 1

      tell me, what's the matter, have you been abused by bsd unix fan when you where young ? you failed your studies at Berkeley ? you've never been able to fully install a bsd system and you feel frustrated ? everything ? I don't wan't to upset you eh, but.. how to say that... more and more companies are switching to bsd... that's also a fact, and your recurrent pathetic posts won't change anything about it. I've been working on 3 differents rather large ISPs, thay all switched from Solaris to FreeBSD. C'mon, go buy a bsd book, you'll need it when your CEO will ask you to try out this fabulous FreeBSD 5.3 everyone is talking about on meetings. Smile :)

    2. Re:*BSD is dying by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you aware you are falling on a 1998 vintage cut-and-paste troll?

  27. The reason you dont see other OSs on there by Tezkah · · Score: 2, Informative

    From their FAQ:

    Additionally HP-UX, Linux, NetApp NetCache, Solaris and recent releases of FreeBSD cycle back to zero after 497 days, exactly as if the machine had been rebooted at that precise point. Thus it is not possible to see a HP-UX, Linux or Solaris system with an uptime measurement above 497 days.

    The *BSDs is very neat, and will probably be my OS of choice on my next computer (selling my mac and either getting a laptop or desktop PC), but lets not get carried away ;)

    -Tezkah, user 7 of 7!?

  28. I don't care what anyone else says by ChipMonk · · Score: 1

    I thought it was funny.

  29. *BSD Users by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Troll

    There are only 3 kinds of *BSD users:

    - those who have migrated to another OS (former users)
    - those who are planning to migrate to another OS (frustrated users)
    - hobbyists

  30. come back ... by curator_thew · · Score: 1


    When you've done a proper study:

    - investigate the use cases and # of use of different OS's in various market segments;
    - investigate trends/decline/fall over the past couple of years, etc;

    Otherwise, this is all just wanking around based upon individual data points that are interesting in themselves, but are absolutely useless in conveying a broader picture.

  31. The best part about FreeBSD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Is that you don't have to deal with all that GPL bullshit.

    BSD = Capitalism friendly

    1. Re:The best part about FreeBSD by thelinuxjunkie · · Score: 1


      Unfortunately, in what seems to be a mostly socialist IT market, FreeBSD is dying, much like the socialist linux crowd would like to see happen to capitalism...

      A non-socialist linux user? Yep, and I'm about the only one.!

      --
      "A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular" --Adlai Stevenson
  32. 6? by JamesTRexx · · Score: 1, Funny

    Nono.. There must be 7 because I use it too and I don't know any of you other 6 guys (or gals if there are any, but then this is slashdot and if even the Linux users can't get any, how on earth are dead FreeBSD users supposed to get any).

    --
    home
    1. Re:6? by JamesTRexx · · Score: 1

      Offtopic!?
      Someone hasn't got enough sense of humour today. Or didn't get any. :-P

      --
      home
  33. Elegy for *BSD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Offtopic

    Elegy For *BSD


    I am a *BSD user
    and I try hard to be brave
    That is a tall order
    *BSD's foot is in the grave.

    I tap at my toy keyboard
    and whistle a happy tune
    but keeping happy's so hard,
    *BSD died so soon.

    Each day I wake and softly sob
    Nightfall finds me crying
    Not only am I a zit faced slob
    but *BSD is dying.

  34. BSD isn't dead just taken a new form... by NEOtaku17 · · Score: 1

    http://lainos.sourceforge.net/index.php

    A new OS inspired by Serial Experiments Lain built ontop of BSD...Interesting

  35. Thanks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That was pretty much the post I had all typed in and hyperlinked, when I managed to crash Netscape 4.7 (don't ask).

    I might add one other created on BSD application, the csh.

  36. totally OT: Crossover and Vmware on FBSD by nurb432 · · Score: 1

    Yes, this is TOTALLY off topic.. but the one thing that keeps a linux machine around my house is vmware GSX server ( current ) and Crossover Linux ( no, stock wine wont do the trick )

    If there was a way to run them under the linux ABI for FBSD, that would be one less linux machine for the stats..

    Any one with pointers?

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    1. Re:totally OT: Crossover and Vmware on FBSD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Screw the bastards at VMWare

      http://www.serenityvirtual.com/

      This is developed on FreeBSD, then ported to Linux

  37. Cant 'screw vmware' by nurb432 · · Score: 1

    Its what is supported at the office, and what we have licenses for. + we use ESX server alongside GSX.

    Soooo. not much choice in my case, regardless of the other options.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  38. Oh mod points.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You know I was wondering why I was awarded mod points. Then I noticed that there was a BSD story posted. Seems like I only get mod points for BSD stories. Trolls...fear me.

  39. What We Can Learn From BSD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Troll

    What We Can Learn From BSD
    By Chinese Karma Whore, Version 1.0

    Everyone knows about BSD's failure and imminent demise. As we pore over the history of BSD, we'll uncover a story of fatal mistakes, poor priorities, and personal rivalry, and we'll learn what mistakes to avoid so as to save Linux from a similarly grisly fate.

    Let's not be overly morbid and give BSD credit for its early successes. In the 1970s, Ken Thompson and Bill Joy both made significant contributions to the computing world on the BSD platform. In the 80s, DARPA saw BSD as the premiere open platform, and, after initial successes with the 4.1BSD product, gave the BSD company a 2 year contract.

    These early triumphs would soon be forgotten in a series of internal conflicts that would mar BSD's progress. In 1992, AT&T filed suit against Berkeley Software, claiming that proprietary code agreements had been haphazardly violated. In the same year, BSD filed countersuit, reciprocating bad intentions and fueling internal rivalry. While AT&T and Berkeley Software lawyers battled in court, lead developers of various BSD distributions quarreled on Usenet. In 1995, Theo de Raadt, one of the founders of the NetBSD project, formed his own rival distribution, OpenBSD, as the result of a quarrel that he documents [theos.com] on his website. Mr. de Raadt's stubborn arrogance was later seen in his clash with Darren Reed, which resulted in the expulsion of IPF from the OpenBSD distribution.

    As personal rivalries took precedence over a quality product, BSD's codebase became worse and worse. As we all know, incompatibilities between each BSD distribution make code sharing an arduous task. Research conducted at MIT found BSD's filesystem implementation to be "very poorly performing." Even BSD's acclaimed TCP/IP stack has lagged behind, according to this study.

    Problems with BSD's codebase were compounded by fundamental flaws in the BSD design approach. As argued by Eric Raymond in his watershed essay, The Cathedral and the Bazaar, rapid, decentralized development models are inherently superior to slow, centralized ones in software development. BSD developers never heeded Mr. Raymond's lesson and insisted that centralized models lead to 'cleaner code.' Don't believe their hype - BSD's development model has significantly impaired its progress. Any achievements that BSD managed to make were nullified by the BSD license, which allows corporations and coders alike to reap profits without reciprocating the goodwill of open-source. Fortunately, Linux is not prone to this exploitation, as it is licensed under the GPL.

    The failure of BSD culminated in the resignation of Jordan Hubbard and Michael Smith from the FreeBSD core team. They both believed that FreeBSD had long lost its earlier vitality. Like an empire in decline, BSD had become bureaucratic and stagnant. As Linux gains market share and as BSD sinks deeper into the mire of decay, their parting addresses will resound as fitting eulogies to BSD's demise.

  40. Non-trolling question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm curious about server-level use of NetBSD. As in, is there any of it? We always hear about how so many people use FreeBSD because it's stable as fuck, OpenBSD because it's secure as fuck, Linux because it's trendy as fuck, and Microsoft because the admins (or PHBs) are stupid as fuck, but what sort of use does NetBSD get? It's goal is portability, but how often do you need to source-port your servers? Any Net fanatics out there willing to set me straight?

    1. Re:Non-trolling question by dotz · · Score: 1

      NetBSD team is obsessed with portability, and that's a very good thing. Each part of the OS tends to be most portable and clean. Basically, NetBSD package collection, which I personally use on FreeBSD and Linux is much cleaner, than FreeBSD Ports or Gentoo Portage (and it is portable, you should see that already). NetBSD is missing, for example, tcsh in the base install, which sometimes will make people say it's obscure, but well. Even if you don't use NetBSD and you do use FreeBSD or OpenBSD, chances are that you're still using large parts of work done by NetBSD team (you do use rc.d scripts in your FreeBSD 5.x, do you? what about USB devices? :). Having a closer look at NetBSD is definetley a good lesson, even if that's not going to be your "number one" OS.

  41. *BSD is dying by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Troll
    It is now official - Netcraft has confirmed: *BSD is dying

    Yet another crippling bombshell hit the beleaguered *BSD community when recently IDC confirmed that *BSD accounts for less than a fraction of 1 percent of all servers. Coming on the heels of the latest Netcraft survey which plainly states that *BSD has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. *BSD is collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by failing dead last in the recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test.

    You don't need to be a Kreskin to predict *BSD's future. The hand writing is on the wall: *BSD faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for *BSD because *BSD is dying. Things are looking very bad for *BSD. As many of us are already aware, *BSD continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood. FreeBSD is the most endangered of them all, having lost 93% of its core developers.

    Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.

    OpenBSD leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of OpenBSD. How many users of NetBSD are there? Let's see. The number of OpenBSD versus NetBSD posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 NetBSD users. BSD/OS posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of NetBSD posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of BSD/OS. A recent article put FreeBSD at about 80 percent of the *BSD market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 FreeBSD users. This is consistent with the number of FreeBSD Usenet posts.

    Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, FreeBSD went out of business and was taken over by BSDI who sell another troubled OS. Now BSDI is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house.

    All major surveys show that *BSD has steadily declined in market share. *BSD is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If *BSD is to survive at all it will be among OS hobbyist dabblers. *BSD continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, *BSD is dead.

    Fact: *BSD is dead

  42. If BSD's not dead.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When the fuck do we get FreeBSD 5.3 or NetBSD 2.0?

    1. Re:If BSD's not dead.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When the fuck do we get FreeBSD 5.3

      in six months give or take

  43. QUESTION: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Troll

    What's deader than a room full of Ronald Reagan corpses?

    ANSWER: *BSD!

  44. Load up the meta-moderation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is the dumbest slashdot post I've ever seen. The whole article should be rated -1 Flamebait.

    Go into meta-moderation and mod down the people who are modding everything BSD up and everything anti-BSD down.

    And please, mod this down. Waste your mod points.

  45. You heard it, Slashbots! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: -1, Troll

    Lunix is dead !

  46. If there wasn't a BSD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Linux would be a VMS clone.

  47. no bsd is still dead by MemoryDragon · · Score: 1

    VDR has not been portet yet, therefore a number of zero pvrs run on bsd yet, therefore it must be dead or at least smelling

    1. Re:no bsd is still dead by vga_init · · Score: 1

      And just why is it so important for BSD to have a VDR? The idea just seems dumb to me.

    2. Re:no bsd is still dead by MemoryDragon · · Score: 1

      Uh no this vdr

  48. Hello, I'm your local BSD spokesperson... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Here is the number one reason why Linux sucks:
    http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/today/top.av g.html

    Stability, ladies and gentlemen. Not one single Linux box on the list.

    1. Re:Hello, I'm your local BSD spokesperson... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What a cock you are, those are sites nobody visits. I can install *BSD on my cock and host a website with it, too bad no one but your mom will visit. Uptime doesn't equate to stability or quality, you cock. Suck a cock.

  49. NetBSD is used by nerds... by Nick+Driver · · Score: 1

    ...because it's obscure as f*ck. (Almost as far out there in left field as BeOS, except it *is* a unix). I once bought an old Sparcstation5 that had NetBSD loaded on it and it was about the same as FreeBSD or OpenBSD, just subtle differences. I reformatted the disk after playing around with NetBSD until I was completely bored with it and tried other operating systems: OpenBSD/Sparc, Linux/Sparc and both Solaris 7 and Solaris 8 on the little box (110MHz) and after compiling gcc with gcc itself under each o/s, quickly came to the conclusion that Sun's older Solaris 7 was the snappiest performer on this low-power machine.

    If you're gonna run an x86 based piece of hardware, just do yourself a favor and stick with FreeBSD. Not only is it legendary stable, it's also the most refined and snappiest performing *BSD of then all on x86 platform. I just now replaced an old dual PentiumPro 200MHz FreeBSD Compaq Proliant that ran for nearly two years without a reboot, serving a 2GB website with Apache 1.3.x over the internet. Never got hacked either. Funny thing it, it was replaced with a dual 1.4GHz Xeon Proliant running Win2003 with IIS6 (not my choice) and the new box cannot keep up with the workload the old one easily handled. LoL!

    1. Re:NetBSD is used by nerds... by dotz · · Score: 2, Insightful
      quickly came to the conclusion that Sun's older Solaris 7 was the snappiest performer on this low-power machine.
      Let me guess, a system, that was started on SPARCs performs better on a SPARC, than other 2 systems, one of which started as a port to x86, and another one, which is aimed to be first portable, then efficient. Hmm. Interesting! :)
  50. I'm Seeing Penguins Everywhere by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Linux seems to be on everyone's minds lately.

    It's a bit like that old Alfred Hitchcock movie, The Birds--only the birds are penguins.

  51. To blathe... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's only MOSTLY dead!

  52. Linux vs BSD continued, part X: Bug hunting by dotz · · Score: 1
    Having some small software developed from time to time, I hit software bugs, as usual. In case they occur both on Linux and BSD, Linux user has to give the architecture name, Linux distribution used name, kernel version, gcc version, glibc version... In case of BSD, this is architecture and BSD version.

    Reproducing bugs? If it hits FreeBSD-CURRENT, other people can checkout and build whole system, exactly like it was by the date I provide. Try to do the same thing with your Linux OS ;)

    Building packages? Yes, that can take a lof of time, except using pkgsrc/Ports I can build any versions I want, and they stay consistent with the rest of the packaging system. Packaging system does everything for me, downloads, checks checksums, applies patches, builds. Even inexperienced user can try this, just by changing version number in Makefile (which is a plain text file, in most cases easy to read and understand). Unless you're using Gentoo, I don't think you can do that that easily with your Linux OS - either you have to do some more complicated tasks, or you end up installing packages by hand - not to mention, that's more time-consuming, than building from Ports/pkgsrc, you end up with having files not maintained by the packaging system.

    Have fun! :)

  53. what is this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What sort of news is that free*** is not dead and that it has users? Is this some sort of weird self-appreciation exercise?

    It's just a trigger to get all free***-zealots to fill up the comments section with their half-assed proofs that free*** is what God gave to Moses (probably on the back of those stone tablets).

    Go back into the closet and write your OS a decent journaling filesystem. X-D

    1. Re:what is this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What sort of news is that free*** is not dead and that it has users? Is this some sort of weird self-appreciation exercise?

      Self appreciation is a natural trait among BSD users. It is an attempt to make up for their Linux envy and small disk syndromes.

      It's just a trigger to get all free***-zealots to fill up the comments section with their half-assed proofs that free*** is what God gave to Moses (probably on the back of those stone tablets).

      Go back into the closet and write your OS a decent journaling filesystem. X-D


      Oh but:
      FreeBSD 5 has lots of debugging code

      You mustn't have tuned it properly

      You are clearly biased, so we'll ignore you

      FreeBSD is better engineered than Linux

      FreeBSD is more consistient

      It has better documentation

      It isn't just thrown together

      Linux once rewrote their page reclaim algorithms in a stable kernel

      FreeBSD has the best network stack

      FreeBSD is more stable and secure

      Linux is for people who hate Windows, FreeBSD is for people who love UNIX.

      Linux mounts filesystems unsafe by default

      Softupdates is somehow far better than journalling

      Linux is only good because it steals code from BSD.

      FreeBSD is far more scalable than Linux.

      Linux is written by a bunch of school kids.

      FreeBSD handles heavy load better, which is something that magically doesn't show up in benchmarks.

      Linux is only good because they are IBM whores... ... oh, and AMD, Intel, SGI, HP, Dell, Sun, SuSE, RedHat, Sony, TI, Toshiba, NEC.

      ad nauseum.

      And finally: we don't care about Linux. We're glad Linux lusers think FreeBSD is crap because we don't want them using it.

    2. Re:what is this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And finally: we don't care about Linux. We're glad Linux lusers think FreeBSD is crap because we don't want them using it.

      Might I add that this funny one is spewed by the very people who gloat about the (invisible? imaginary?) hordes of people migrating from Linux to FreeBSD.

      The FreeBSD camp need to take their eyes of Linux's behind, accept their failures, take some responsibility and accountability, and *believe* people who show Linux to outperform their system, rather than tell them to get lost.

      Although I fear the FreeBSD project is rotten with institutionalised elitism and ivory tower mentality from the top down.

  54. Why Linux overtook Freebsd by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When Freebsd developers are sleeping with consoles linux started entering into GUI.
    Now with Knoppix live-cd revolution ( Windoze can't even match) linux is reaching end-users. But Freebsd still sitting with consoles and tell the whole world that they have a full-round OS than Linux. Just to compare the growth of Applications with Freebsd applications ! it's amazing!

    Are these Freebsd developers anything less than Linux developers ? No. But their focus is still with the console caves! It is nothing wrong in it, if you want to get done your processing! but Freebsd-ers telling all newbies RTFM. It is not newbie friendly. On the otherhand Linux listends to simple users / newbies user and make it easier for them.
    It will take another decade for Freebsd-developers to realise that. The real improvement on freebsd websites to count is not how many websites created rather how many individual clients used Freebsd!

    sleeptight!

  55. No fun by 00_NOP · · Score: 1

    The main thing about BSD is that it doesn't seem to be very much fun (in a way that is what the article says too).
    Partly, that's a reflection of simple numbers - there are more of us Linux hackers out there. partly it's accessibility (read the posts here where people boast of how difficult it is to install the thing). Partly it's a different culture - I can get away with writing some not very good Linux drivers for odd boxes because other people will improve them - people welcome the work because it's a start and don't carp that it's poor engineering.
    I use *BSD a bit and I am not interested in any sort of religious warfare, but BSD is just too *serious* for a weekend hacker like me.

  56. 416 667 sites/box = security issues by hol · · Score: 1

    Actually, we all host our sites on your box. So does CI Host. Thanks!

    --
    - - - Non Caffeine Drink or Drink Error
  57. messing with MBR by ChipMonk · · Score: 1

    FreeBSD can install its own MBR. It just doesn't, by default.

    Linux can install its own MBR. Most distros do, by default.

    As far as the browser bit, so what? I can set up a Slackware Linux system with no browser, and it's still completely functional, in that it doesn't crash, and everything that is installed runs correctly.

  58. It's a flooded market by curtlewis · · Score: 1

    FreeBSD is a pretty good OS as far as unix variants goes. It's reliability is well known, the linux compatibility is nice and if you don't touch it at all after you install the OS, everything works pretty well. The problem is that Linux gets all the press, Windows owns the market and OS X has FreeBSD underneath and a GUI that kicks it's butt to hell and back (and any X based interface for that matter).

    I've always been a BSD fan when it comes to my Unix flavors and I just started working for a company that bases it's products off FreeBSD. So I have a FreeBSD workstation set up in my cube, like pretty much everyone else. I decided to install Mozilla on my pretty much stock as a rock 4.9 system. Dependencies made me upgrade a few things and next thing I know, Nautilus crashes on launch. I fuss with it, start reinstalling new versions of every library known to man that's remotely related and after a week, I gave up and installed 4.10. Had it working great until I added KDE into the mix, now, once again, Nautilus crashes on launch, but for another reason. Some lib got upgraded and broke all the linkage.

    My current plan is to install distros only, no packages and then just do ports manually using make install. It was still compiling crap when I left work today, but I've written off experimenting with KDE and I'm just going to stick with Gnome as I prefer it anyways.

    As long as you don't try to upgrade anything, FreeBSD is rock solid, powerful and pretty straightforward for a unix system. But you'll be damned to hell if you want to install Apache 2.0 or upgrade something. You don't see this issues with Windows or OS X. And while I've run into rpm hell on Linux (I do source only now), I don't recall having such problems on a Linux box. Then again, I'd never use Linux as a workstation unless I HAD to...

    Kind of sad that FreeBSD is slowly dying, I think it's better than Linux. But it's probably too late to shift the winds of change, so we'll be stuck wtih the oddities of Linux forevermore, at least for that Unix like alternative to windows on Intel platforms.