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Fuel Cells for Laptop Computers
ArbiterOne writes "An article in PC World states that the company MTI Micro Fuel Cells plans to demonstrate a new technology this week that could pave the way for better power technology for laptop and palmtop computers. The article claims that this new technology could provide a battery life 2.5 times greater than that of a lithium-ion battery. Could this be the solution to the problem of short battery life in high-end notebooks?"
As long as the laptop designers don't suddenly think that having more power means they can put components that use 2.5 times the power.
The nice thing about "normal" batteries is that I can go to my hotel room and recharge them. The last thing I need to be doing is wandering around vegas at three in the morning trying to find some hydrogen to power my notebook for the big presentation in the morning.
"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
Could this be the solution to the problem of short battery life in high-end notebooks?
Yes, and with their safety record it could cause the problem of short user life in high-end notebooks.
Stop playing games on the company laptop.
Life in Orange County
I like my pubic hair, thankyouverymuch.
But seriously, will this be available in time for current computers (like my brand-new Powerbook) to be able to upgrade to a fuel cell power source?
I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
Lithium-Ion batteries only last so long before you have to replace them completely - I wonder if they can get these to be cheap enough to be economically competitive towards the other batteries.
If they last longer, and the cost-per-hour of use turns out to be cheaper...
I [may] disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Remember what Smokey the Bear says. Only you can prevent your MTI Micro Fuel Cell based laptop from starting a forest fire.
An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
Pardon me while I yawn. These things have been just around the corner for a LONG TIME. It seems they get "demonstrated" when there's a pressing need for more money, and then they go away for an undefined period of time.
Call me when I can buy one for my powerbook.
..don't panic
I can just see someone cycling up to a petro-can Station pulling out a steaming laptop and yelling 'Filler up fast! I'm being slashdotted!'
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
Do I want an experimental fuel cell on my lap?
Hmmm... Now where would one find methanol?
I agree about the recharging being desireable. It sounds good but there's some more work to do on it.
"Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain
"Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain
Now my dual 3.2Ghz EE Pentium 4 laptop time will triple to 8.3 minutes!
The article didn't seem to mention the cost of these new fuel cell batteries along with their refueling cartridges. I don't see anyone switching to new fuel cell batteries anytime soon unless the cost of the fuel cell and lots of refueling cartridges is approximately the same as a regular li-ion battery. Of course, the nice thing about this technology is that you would never actually need to plug anything in because the battery can't be recharged, just change the cartridge. Also raises the question of whether the fuel cartridges will be hot-swappable. Still, fuel cell batteries sound kewl. :)
One Can Never Own Enough Musical Instruments...
I have seen this on slashdot before but I can't seem to find it and am too lazy to keep looking. I guess this will be the same: no one wants a laptop called the hindenberg
this sig intentionally left blank
Consider the typical office corridor worker, travelling to-and-fro with their tablet PC - do they really want to have to buy or refill a cartridge every day? Would it be practical to have multiple full cartridges on hand and refill them in bulk?
I can see enjoying the option of one of these long life power units if I'm on a flight or in some environment where I need that much portable power without the opportunity to recharge, but it seems doubtful that fuel cells are going to make a major impact on portable electronics until the infrastructure solution is solved. Even still, the infrastructure exists for non-rechargable batteries, yet many people prefer devices that have modern rechargables - it just makes more sense for most situations.
I believe fuel cells are an excellent technology, and a worthy replacement to traditional non-rechargeable batteries, but I find it unlikeley that they will supplant the current methods of use-and-recharge laptop, pda, and cellular batteries - it's just too convenient.
Anyone thought about the fact that Methanol is highly toxic? I can see the headline:
"Small child dies in tragedy involving laptop".
I've not seen any discussion of this aspect of direct methanol fuel cells on the web, but it's an important one.
43 - For those who require slightly more than the answer to life, the universe and everything.
If you want to be very technical about it, we nearly have that. Most of the world is flooded with high-power radio signals. By "radio", I mean AM, FM, television, cell phone, GPS, and everything else.
Tesla proved, repeatedly, that those signals could be caught in an antenna and turned into basic AC power. However, transmitting AC power through the air would mean that the power companies could not control how much electricity you used. So, there was a lot of propoganda, using Thomas Edison as a mouthpiece, to convince the world at large that transmitting radio waves would destroy the world - even calling transmitted AC waves "the devil's science".
Now, we've built thousands of transmission towers. Why not tap into some of that power? Sure, you can't run a laptop on the power off one 900MHz antenna, but what if you had, say 500 of them in a little bundle? Even then, if you couldn't run the laptop off it, you could use the little power you did get to trickle charge the battery - making it last a lot longer.
Before you get freaky ideas of humping around 500 antennas on your back, take note that an effective 900MHz antenna can be as little as half and inch long. If you arrange them like spokes on a wheel, you would have a 1-inch wide disk. Now, the trick is to fit the electronics to convert the AC signal into the same small package.
I admit, this isn't the ultimate fuel source you requested, but it is a plentiful and untapped one.
The previous comment is purposely vague and generalized, but all of the facts are completely true.
Wonder how long before people start cracking the top off the fuel chargers and start mixed it with coke... sure it may cause blindness, but there are a whole lot or reasons your laptop will make you go blind. (ba-dum-ching!)
I can just see it now... tough board meeting, heading back on the train... cracking open your fuel cells for sweet sweet relief.
Come on... people do it with whipped cream changers! Next best thing for the liquor-added geek?
Now to find a way to power my laptop on vodka (like Bender!)
You do realize, don't you, why Bush and Co are focusing on hydrogen as the supposed future? It's so far off in terms of actually replacing much of anything that focusing on it to the detriment of other, more immediately applicable, technologies (hybridization) ensures oil's continued dominance for the foreseeable future.
This all sort of reminds me of the company that was putting out a huge new version of their product, that was taking an incredibly long time. And all their sales people were saying... don't buy yet.. wait... basically hyping the new product. And then when the new product came out they immediately started hyping the next product. No one bought the first product as a result, the company went out of business, and the second version never appeared.
There is a progression of technologies here, and praying for a leapfrog to the next decade's technology and ignoring more immediate technologies only benefits the oil companies, and further delays actual energy independence.
see New Sci home page, article is:
though of course you'll need to have paid money to read it...
It does cover some useful stuff including the fact that any alternative to a bettery that produces even relatively small quantities of unpleasant exhaust won't be any fun in a small space - like an aeroplane cabin...
"we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
Several problems need to be worked out before fuel cells are a viable commercial technology, says Allen Nogee, principal analyst with InStat/MDR in Scottsdale, Arizona. For one thing, the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration has to decide if fuel cells will be allowed on airplanes, he says.
Given the way laptops are used by business travellers, and where they generally need long battery life, this is probably a stopper for the whole thing.
Have you read my blog lately?
Given the huge amount of power it takes just to stay in the air, I can't see a commercial airliner not being able to spare 30 watts per seat for hardware. The weight of wiring might be an issue, but if you run 110 VAC 400 Hz 3 phase down the aircraft and use switching converters at each row of seats that'll be minimal.
Scientists restrict study to entire physical universe; creationist
Over the course of the operating period, the amount of excess water released will not be noticeable to the user, he says.
:D
great, now laptops can pee on us
"Disposable" fuel cells have to be compared against primary batteries, not rechargeable ones. Rechargable batteries typically have about half the energy density of primary batteries. So claiming a 2.5x improvement in battery life for a nonrechargeable system is not a win.
Ballard is further along than anybody else in larger fuel cells. Even they don't have much more than prototypes. Their attempt to market a fuel cell under the Coleman brand was a failure. The Coleman Powermate was launched with great fanfare in 2002, and never shipped. It's not clear what's wrong at Ballard. Their 1KW units should be providing backup power for cell phone sites and such, but it isn't happening.
Ballard uses hydrogen in their fuel cells. Despite all the hype about the "hydrogen economy", Praxair, which sells hydrogen for fuel cells, has this to say:
Fuel cell grade hydrogen is specifically designed to be used as a fuel in fuel cell applications. It contains extremely low levels of impurities (e.g. ammonia (NH3), carbon monoxide (CO) and sulfur compounds) that can harm the catalyst-coated membranes inside the fuel cell.
It is supplied in high-pressure cylinders and can only be used by industrial customers, like factories, laboratories, universities, and military and government installations. Typically, industrial customers already use compressed gases as part of their daily activities. Its use requires adequate ventilation and/or monitoring systems appropriate to the size of the location, helping ensure the safety of personnel when non-air gases are present.
Why dont we see lower power laptops?
using current tech for low power consumption they could make a laptop that has say a 500-600mhz processor and a trans-reflective TFT display like that on PDA's as well as using a hard drive/ram/flash combo to give me 3-4 days run time.
add to it by covering the lid in flexible solar panels and you would have a laptop that is useable by most people that will trickle charge from the lighting in the office or sunlight coming in the windows/ car windows/etc....
not everyone needs a 2.8ghz Centrino with a super 3d video card + 10,000rpm laptop hard drive to do their daily tasks.
granted this would mean that OS makers (Microsoft you hear me?) actually start making the OS smaller and faster... but there are times that I wish I could have a sub/sub notebook taking advantage of today's tech making weigh almost nothing with gobs of battery life.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Spengler: There's something very important I forgot to tell you. /. the server.
Venkman: What?
Spengler: Don't
Venkman: Why?
Spengler: It would be bad.
Venkman: I'm fuzzy on the whole good/bad thing. What do you mean "bad"?
Spengler: Try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously, and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light.
Stantz: Total protonic reversal!
Venkman: Right, that's bad. Okay, alright, important safety tip, thanks Egon.
Ok, maybe it's me, but it seems that no one has thought about the practical implicaitons of how this works.
1) Take the idea of carrying your LiIon battery, and compact charger, throwing it away, and basically replacing it with the equivalent number of AA batteries needed to make a business trip.
1a) Now think about how much your back is going to hurt after dealing with that much weight in an airport.
2) OK, now take that thought, replace those AA batteries with something that's full of liquid, flammable liquid at that, and carry enough of those to power your laptop for a week long business trip.
3) Disposal of the spent cartridges. And the fact that this thing spits out steam (euphemistically called water vapor in the article) right near delicate electronic components. Does it have an exhaust pipe to make sure that you don't get condensation all over your expensive computer bits?
4) How does this really help? It might be cool to do for disposable batteries. I'd love to be able to get longer life in my flashlight with a battery like this, but not in my laptop with those kind of limitations.
Reeses
... this could give a new meaning to "CPU burning"
What makes you think 500 antennas in a little bundle would be measurably better than one?
Even then, if you couldn't run the laptop off it, you could use the little power you did get to trickle charge the battery - making it last a lot longer.
You have a very interesting definition of "a lot".
take note that an effective 900MHz antenna can be as little as half and inch long.
A half-wave dipole for 900mhz is about 6.5" long. You'll seriously decrease effectiveness by using something smaller.
Now, the trick is to fit the electronics to convert the AC signal into the same small package.
They make pretty small diodes these days... Why don't you make your own crystal radio and see for yourself how much power you can capture from radio? Hint: most RF field strength meters (which need batteries) report in microvolts per meter.
- other companies make a compatable form-factor
- original company starts changing the form factor on a regular basis
- other companies make refill kits
- original company adds software so the cartridge thinks its empty
- someone makes a 'tool' to convince the cartridge otherwise
- original company sues person under the DCMA
Okay, that's not exactly the timeline with the previous ones, but I'd expect something similiarYou'll go to the store, and have to buy company X's model to it your machine, but the store will be all out, because company X is having a supply problem, and no one else has a comporable model. [case in point -- I got the third to the last pack of AA batteries at the CVS near my house last week....out of 12 or so hooks of Duracell, Energizer, generics, in 4/8/12 packs, they had 2 packs of generics left after I left... I have no idea why they were that low (they could've had more in back, I didn't ask).
If it's some proprietary format, I'm just not optimistic about finding a new battery when mine goes dead.
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
Actually, fuel cells run on hydrogen, which is the most plentiful gas in the universe. Which makes it more available than fossil fuels...
I saved a copy because it looked like the server was going down http://students.depaul.edu/~bengert/fule/0,aid,116 591,00.asp.htm
Somehow I just don't see you being allowed to take this onboard an airplane, or even allowed through security with it. Bad enough it gives of gasses, but it's full of a flamable liquid?
Can you say 'bomb'?
(Doesn't matter if it can be made to explode, we're talking about the same people who confiscate nail clippers)
Almost all objects on the planet have large amounts of hydrogen in them. Hydrogen is not a fossil fuel, and being the most abundent material in the universe, we won't be running out of it any time soon.
><));>
our correct in your statement but your neglecting that most industrial hydrogen is made from and with fossil fuels. Granted you need to get the demand there then you can work on that but it's not realy a clean solution today it's just moving the polution to the factory/plant away from the car.
No sir I dont like it.
From: http://www.c-f-c.com/gaslink/pure/methanol.htm
Methanol: A colorless, flammable liquid with an odor repulsive pungent. Shipped and stored in dissolved acetone. Can decompose spontaneously if pressure exceeds 15 PSIG.
Hazards: A toxic substance. Irriatates eyes and causes dizziness, nausea and is a possible carcinogen.
Yeah, I'm going to carry a bottle of that onto a post-9/11 jetliner.
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
As methanol is made of Carbon, Oxygen and Hydrogen atoms, a common mean to get some is from... Petroleum!
For hydrogen, easy, just take some water, some electricity, and separate Hydrogen from Oxygen. But, where do we get electricity? Sometimes from petroleum, often from nuclear plants...
So before everything else we should better develop cleaner ways for producing our electricity.
Take a typical FM broadcast tower. Say, DC101 in the DC-metro area. 22.5 kWatts. That power is spread out over the entire surface area of the region. Some tens of hundreds of square miles. And the inverse-square law is a bitch. Your antenna will receive the tiniest fraction of a watt. It's a good thing your radio tuner or cellphone has a filter and amplifier to do something with it.
You definitely can't get usable juice from that.
No, son, if you were being irridated with narrow band EM waves that were incident in such a fashion to be able to power a laptop (say, 50 watts), without a parabolic antenna, you'd be blind, or dead. This is how microwave ovens work (in the 802.11b range, no less)
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
I hereby announce Richolson's Law:
Whenever an article mentioning laptop computers, parts for laptop computers, or any accessory pertaining to laptop computers is posted to Slashdot, the chances someone will link to the Register article about the man who burnt his penis with his laptop approaches 1.0.
So similarly, even if a hotel would foolishly allow you to crack tap water to produce hydrogen and oxygen in your hotel room in the quantities needed without causing a fire or explosion, how would you propose to carry around these gases ? You would need a good, portable compressor to fill up a tank.
I think if you thought about it a bit, you'd realize that supplying and storing alcohols is much more simple and practical than hydrogen, for the same reasons that this whole "hydrogen economy" notion has so many problems of practicality that it will probably never happen and that biofuels (alcohols, biodiesel, etc) are much more likely.
No, because the typical source of hydrogen is electrolyzed water. Hence you are simply recreating the water where the hydrogen came from in the first place. However, since it takes energy to split water, and that energy presumably came from fossil fuels, you are definitely causing an environmental impact.
Also, burning hydrocarbons releases water as well as CO2. If the excess water had a large environmental impact, we would have noticed it by now. The CO2 is much more important in terms of environmental impact.
I don't remember anything about that!
The NYTimes (reg. req'd) has a report about ongoing research on glucose-based fuel cells. Maybe instead using batteries, we'll soon just plug our laptops into our arms.
A single aspirin-sized pellet of U-235 could power your laptop for 20,000 years. No wimpy Centrinos, but a big honkin' full-strength 43.8-watt Pentium IV. The ability to burn DVD's directly, and I do mean burn. A simple 20-pound lead plate integral with the back of the case provides your lap with thermal and other protection, as well as looking cool. Waste disposal? No problem, nobody's going to throw one away when it still has 19,997 years of useful life in it.
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
I'll be the first to say I'm not a huge supporter of President Bush - but the parent poster's statement is questionable at best, and more likely pure FUD.
Hydrogen is being focused on as the "future" right now simply because it shows the most potential. We've already been through the whole superconductor thing, which turned out to largely be a fiasco. We have a pretty good handle on such energy sources as nuclear power and solar power, and already know where/when to use them, and where/when they're not really viable.
Yes, there might be a more immediately usable power source for automobiles in such things as producing fuel from plants, but the numbers I've seen run on this indicate it's not practical as a way to really migrate all of the U.S. cars and trucks away from petroleum products. (Farmers can't grow enough soybeans and other crops to supply all the demand we currently have for oil, even if you could magically convert every motor vehicle to run on these types of alternate fuels overnight.)
I believe it was well over a year ago, Slashdot linked to a story about people driving around an experimental hydrogren fuel cell powered van in the Chicago area. This technology isn't "pie in the sky". It's basically workable, and shows results for the money put into the research. I think it has little or nothing to do with some conspiracy theory about Bush backing it to protect the oil companies.
In addition to the difficulties already pointed out, electrolysis of water is a very inefficient process. The electricity it takes to generate a certain amount of hydrogen via electrolysis vastly exceeds the amount you get back by turning that hydrogen into water.
ZFS: because love is never having to say fsck
Yes, reversible fuel cells have not been left without attention, but there are some problems, both electrochemical and mechanical. First, the catalyst used for the cell can't be carbon supported platinum, which is the best for hydrogen fuel cells, since electrolysis happens in a potential region(*) where carbon is oxidized. Therefore, a non-carbon supported catalyst or a non-supported catalyst is needed and the search is still on.
Second, storing the hydrogen might be a problem. Pressurized container are bulky and require additional components, e.g. compressors, and chemical storage systems, for example metal hydride containers are heavy and expensive.
For most uses, there is no need to store oxygen. There's enough oxygen in air, and air is readily available in most use environments.
* Yes, you can split water at a potential, which is under the oxidation potential of carbon, but reaction kinetics at that potential are not favorable, i.e. too slow. Therefore, practical electrolysis requires a higher potential.
The aim of science is not to open the door to infinite wisdom, but to set a limit to infinite error.
-Bertolt Brecht
The obvious answer is a tiny Diesel engine. It'll probably be commercialised faster, it will run nicely on rapseseed oil, which you can carry on airplanes, and the coolness factor would be enormous. The Powerbook would doubtless have some six-cylinder BMW design with engine management and a titanium-clad alternator, while Dell would have some two-pot Chinese job that emitted black smoke while starting. Of course, the plane could still run out of salad dressing on the way to a convention, and the filler better not look too much like a hypodermic.
Panurge has posted for the last time. Thanks for the positive moderations.
They are not "oil" companies. They are energy companies, and they will sell anything that makes them money.
Do you think Exxon, Chevron, et al are fools? Regardless of how you view their environmental morals, they are in it for the money. They know better than you how much oil is or isn't in the ground. Not only will they gladly invest capitol in the energy source with the highest profit margin, they have a history of investing now for long-term payouts. If wind, solar, or hydro was seen by their hundreds and hundreds of economists and scientists as economically advantageous, they'd be all over it.