Slashdot Mirror


Fingerprint Scanners Still Easy to Fool

Anlan writes "A Swedish student wrote her Master's thesis about current fingerprint technology. After a thorough literature study some live testing took place. Simple DIY fingerprint copies were used (detailed how-to in the thesis). Have current commercial products improved as much as proponents claim? Well, this qoute from the abstract says it all: 'The experiments focus on making artificial fingerprints in gelatin from a latent fingerprint. Nine different systems were tested at the CeBIT trade fair in Germany and all were deceived. Three other different systems were put up against more extensive tests with three different subjects. All systems were circumvented with all subjects' artificial fingerprints, but with varying results.' You can guess how happy the sales people at CeBIT were - most systems claim to be spoof proof..."

95 of 378 comments (clear)

  1. Airport Police by mirko · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So, will they remove these fingerprint scanners, in the US Internaitonal Airport ?

    --
    Trolling using another account since 2005.
    1. Re:Airport Police by loyalsonofrutgers · · Score: 3, Funny

      It doesn't really matter, odds are they're not even plugged in.

    2. Re:Airport Police by Stargoat · · Score: 4, Funny

      Airport! No, don't bring that up! George Bush will have to invade Sweden now!

      --
      Hoist Number One and Number Six.
    3. Re:Airport Police by dave420 · · Score: 5, Insightful
      No, because it appears like they're actually doing some good. Just like when they had the national guard monkeys running around with M16s. Absolutely no use whatsoever, but makes the American public go "Gee - we're so protected! I love our President(tm)!"

      The war on terror isn't about the terrorists, it's all PR.

    4. Re:Airport Police by wo1verin3 · · Score: 5, Funny

      >>So, will they remove these fingerprint
      >>scanners, in the US Internaitonal Airport ?

      No, they'll just continue to refuse letting travellers use gelatin molds in place of their real hands.

    5. Re:Airport Police by XryanX · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm sure someone that was trained in stage makeup could easily make a fake finger that would slip over their real one, and yet still look realistic.

    6. Re:Airport Police by Captain+Caveman · · Score: 4, Funny

      Yes, they will be replaced by rectal scanners because it is impossible to make a perfect gelatin mold out of your ass.

    7. Re:Airport Police by MrDingusMcGee · · Score: 2, Informative

      Most international airports in the US use fingerprints for verification only and rely on either smart cards and/or PINs for identification purposes. So while it's certainly possible to fake the fingerprint, it's much harder to gain unauthorized access when you have to combine 2 or 3 of the "something you have/know/are" methods of security.

      You can force someone to enter a PIN and put their finger on the reader, but that's what duress codes are for (a PIN seperate from your own that indicates you are entering your PIN under threat/duress and will generate an alarm to security).

      Our airports (or any other buildings) will never be totally secure, all we can do is keep making it harder on the people who are trying to gain unauthoriezd access.

      --
      My Sig is Sauer.
    8. Re:Airport Police by dave420 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      The 3,000 dead on 9/11 died in a single incident, 3 years ago. Those who died in Afghanistan and Iraq died at American hands. I stand by my point - what age of terrorism?

      If the war on terrorism was about decreasing terrorism, the US wouldn't have invaded Iraq. Iraq had nothing to do with any terrorism, but they did have plenty of oil. You figure it out. You have to be seriously missing the plot if you can't understand it.

    9. Re:Airport Police by CreatureComfort · · Score: 5, Interesting


      I think you missed his point, Dook"43".

      He did not say that efforts to stop terrorism shouldn't be made, only that the efforts that are currently being made are pure PR fluff. Having M16 armed national guardsmen at airports was absurd. What were they supposed to accomplish? In any instance, opening fire with a machine gun in a crowded airport lobby would kill far more innocent people than terrorists. Not to mention, just how were these guardsmen supposed to tell if someone was a terrorist, before blowing themselves up or driving an explosive laden vehicle into the terminal?

      Lets talk about other "safety" measures:
      1) Turn all airport screeners into government employees. Well, now our dear TSA is moving to recertify airports to use private screeners.
      2) Even with government screeners, security is like tissue paper. I attended a conference last week, and one of the vendors was giving out "swiss army" type knives, 5 blades + corkscrew, etc. He told me he had dumped a box 50 of these into his bag, and at the last minute decided to carry that bag on instead of checking it. He didn't even remember that the box was in there until he was in the air. He stayed quiet about it until after he landed, because he didn't want to get stuck somewhere in middle america. Security never even noticed. (BTW, he said he did report it to airport security after he landed and was outside the secured zone.)

      If we are going to be serious about security follow El Al's proceedures, most of which are deliberately kept very quiet and out of the public view. Instead the current administration follows a typical american penchant to do something, anything that makes a lot of noise and is very visible for "feel good" moments, but which accomplish either nothing, or the opposite of what they are supposed to.

      --
      "Unheard of means only it's undreamed of yet,
      Impossible means not yet done." ~~ Julia Ecklar
    10. Re:Airport Police by zors · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So, because he responding to your opinion with one of his own, he's a fascist?

      And he has a point too, just because they were never trained for airport security doesn't mean theyre stupid. And either way they deserve a modicum of respect for the commitment that they have made to their country.

      Oops, i'm a fascist.

    11. Re:Airport Police by presarioD · · Score: 3, Funny

      national guard monkeys

      Gee! A little respect! These are hard working patriots, protecting the american public from multiple threats and dangers of all sorts!

      Ts ts ts ts ts!

      They enlist themselves and their kids to fight wars on terrors(TM) and defend democracy and freedom and the Values of Western Civilization(TM), at least we could show some respect to that Saintly Sacrifice!

      Do you think it's easy to torture Iraqi people in order to liberate them?

      --
      Yam, yam, uga booga, yam, yam, yade, yade, uga booga, yam, yam, yade, yade
    12. Re:Airport Police by gtaluvit · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sweden. Sounds fine by me. I got dibs on the princess. Swedish Princess SFW

      --
      - gtaluvit (prnc. GOT-tuh-LUV-it)
    13. Re:Airport Police by dave420 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      By invading Iraq he's turned it into a hotbet of terrorist activity. He actively made the world a more dangerous place. That was the only possible outcome of the action. That man did not have an alterior reason for what he did - it was oil, plain and simple. I mean, why else would you send hundreds of thousands of troops into a country to fight a war everyone's saying can't be won, against international will, which will obviously and eventually worsen the very cause you say you're fighting for? If it wasn't for oil, Bush is quite likely the very stupidest individual the world has ever seen, let alone president. Sheesh.

    14. Re:Airport Police by dave420 · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Saddam hated Osama each other more than Bush hates either of them. Their islamic leanings didn't gel, in fact quite the opposite.

      The war was a great idea if you want oil. Seeing as it's for one of the greatest oil reserves in the world, if you win, you get lots of oil. If you push the price up in the mean time, you've won even more. It's simple.

      What about Donald Rumsfeld meeting Saddam - by your logic, he's as bad as Saddam, as he didn't punch his lights out.

      "Your either with us or against us" is the most ridiculous, basic argument for attacking or praising anyone ever thought up. It's pure hype and BS. You have to be a right sucker to believe in it.

      It is very hard to believe Iraq was a danger to the world. It had ridiculous weapons, a tiny army, and a leader hated by its military. It was as threatening as a dead bluebottle. If you can't see that, you've been suckered in by the pentagon, or you just missed the entire story.

      Can you give specific examples of Saddam Hussein sponsoring terrorism? I guarantee you I can find even more showing Bush's support for terrorism...

    15. Re:Airport Police by jrumney · · Score: 4, Informative
      Just like when they had the national guard monkeys running around with M16s. Absolutely no use whatsoever, but makes the American public go "Gee - we're so protected! I love our President(tm)!

      Granted, I'm not an American so maybe my perception is different, but the sight of nervous 19 year olds with M16s at Logan airport in late 2001 did not make me feel "protected".

    16. Re:Airport Police by rdsmith4 · · Score: 3, Insightful
      The war on terror isn't about the terrorists, it's all PR.

      But that's the point! Terror is not about killing people, it's about scaring the public and causing them to act a certain way. The train bombing in Madrid, for example, though didn't kill a whole lot of people, was completely effective because the Spanish public immediately voted in a leader with a soft spot for terrorists, and he immediately pulled all Spanish troops out of Iraq. The terrorists got what they wanted by scaring the people - not killing them.

      How safe we actually are is entirely irrelevant - it's how safe we feel.

    17. Re:Airport Police by flosofl · · Score: 2, Interesting

      How Americans can put up with his bullshit is beyond me

      Probably the same way people put up with political bullshit on Slashdot.
      They either ignore it or have a knee-jerk reaction.

      --
      "This calls for a very special blend of psychology and extreme violence" - Vyvyan "The Young Ones"
    18. Re:Airport Police by LaCosaNostradamus · · Score: 4, Informative

      {sigh} So much Limbaugh-esque mythology, so little time.

      A significant factor in Afghanistan and Iraq was oil. You assert price as some sort of proof against it. But price increases are to the benefit of the producers, which the Bush family have been known to dabble in from time to time. As well as their family friends, the House of Saud.

      The whole issue of invading an oil-rich country is to control it for the current set of Oil Barons. Bush's administration is packed with folks like that. (Duh.) Price is simply not an issue.

      Iraq was no world threat. About the only sovereign place that would really find Iraq threatening was Israel. And the last time I checked, Israel wasn't the 51st American state, and had no legal representation in any American legislature. If there's anything to be said for American fears of being controlled by foreign interests, then why won't we deal with Israeli influence upon the American military?

      As for criminal negligence, you are in direct hypocritical peril considering how much of that charge can be levelled at the American CIA, FBI and military command (specifically the Commander in Chief, whom you may have heard of) when 911 was being planned and executed. Libya is far more at fault for harboring terrorists, but after Bush's speeches on Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Iran and North Korea, you'll note a sound basis to my skepticism about Bush's due diligence. At any rate, any lax policy in Iraq about terrorist assholes cannot justify: invading Iraq, killing tens of thousands of her citizens (remember, she had an army, not of terrorists, but of Iraqi citizens who were defending against invaders), and taking control of her infrastructure.

      The summary of my statements here would revolve around the idea that America attacked Iraq twice in 12 years for no valid reason. America cannot make the case that it was acting in self-defense, since Iraq made no moves onto American territory. And as for WMDs, we only have to look at Israel to speculate on the term "double standard".

      Face facts, Ace: you've been bamboozled into thinking that America's assaults in the Middle East are not the Imperialist moves that they actually are. Perhaps when you find that you can't even afford to bury your own war-dead sons, then you'll wake up to realize the murderous and barbaric culture that you had been supporting.

      --
      [You have a stable society when some nut guns down a schoolyard and the law doesn't change.]
    19. Re:Airport Police by ghum · · Score: 2, Funny

      >Sweden makes some mighty fine women.

      Alcohol is so expensive in Sweden, nobady can afford to drink ugly women nice. So the selection starts....

    20. Re:Airport Police by gfilion · · Score: 2, Informative

      Granted, I'm not an American so maybe my perception is different, but the sight of nervous 19 year olds with M16s at Logan airport in late 2001 did not make me feel "protected".

      Don't worry, I read in Bruce Scheiner's Beyond Fear that there are no bullets in the M16s, it would be way too dangerous. It's really just for the show.

      Damn, the guys with these empty weapons must feel like complete morons.

    21. Re:Airport Police by KjetilK · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Terror is not about killing people, it's about scaring the public and causing them to act a certain way.

      Agreed.

      The train bombing in Madrid, for example, though didn't kill a whole lot of people, was completely effective because the Spanish public immediately voted in a leader with a soft spot for terrorists,

      Bullshit. Aznar was voted out because he had done everything wrong, and the bombings showed conclusively that all the things that had been done to make everybody feel so much safer was a complete failure. Furthermore, he was lying through his teeth about the events as they happened.

      Fact is, Spain has dealt with terrorism for many years, and they know very well that you can't fight terrorism with military counterattacks. It simply does not work.

      Compare with the US, which has had their tail behind the collective legs since 911, and running scared to abandon every freedom, which is pretty much the only thing the rest of the world has had reason to look up to US for. Great.

      Have a look at a piece a friend of mine wrote. He's a native of Madrid, now studying in the US, and one of the most brilliantly intelligent people that I've met. Read it carefully.

      And, oh, BTW, I've got karma to burn.... :-)

      --
      Employee of Inrupt, Project Release Manager and Community Manager for Solid
    22. Re:Airport Police by rjamestaylor · · Score: 2, Informative
      • the sight of nervous 19 year olds with M16s at Logan airport in late 2001 did not make me feel "protected".
      How about the fact that the rifles you saw were unloaded?
      --
      -- @rjamestaylor on Ello
  2. As a self-appointed representative of ... by burgburgburg · · Score: 5, Funny
    the Security Industry, I'd just like to say:

    Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!

    Please remember this the next time a non-productive "feature" is uncovered.

  3. Easy Solution by Mz6 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Don't let your fingerprints get copied. Wear gloves ALL the time. Problem solved.

    --
    Hmmm.
    1. Re:Easy Solution by endx7 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Even when you are using the scanner?

    2. Re:Easy Solution by jacksonyee · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So what happens when some law enforcement organization such as the police or the passport office want to take your fingerprints? Do you deny their request and don't get anything done, or do you use glove prints rather than fingerprints. Even worse, what if someone hacks into the police database and creates fake gloves with other people's fingerprints etched in them?

      As much as the privacy advocates will laugh at this news article, fingerprints have been a proven source of clues for law enforcement agencys for decades. Nowadays, we have more sophisticated methods of detecting whether someone might have been at the scene of a crime or not, but fingerprinting is nice, quick, easy, and obvious. Of course, every system in existence can be fooled, and if you're really willing to break the system, you can. However, I hate to think that people other than the tinfoil hat crowd would be so concerned about fingerprints that they would wear gloves all the time. This is much more a legislative issue than it is a technological issue. Unless we stop legislative processes invading our privacy, technological means will be only a band-aid onto the root of the problem.

    3. Re:Easy Solution by Short+Circuit · · Score: 3, Informative

      There was a piece on NPR last week about an American who was charged with terrorism in Spain because his fingerprint was there. He was in America at the time the event occured, but two fingerprint experts (his own and the FBI's) verified that the prints matched.

      Fortunately for him, Spain independantly matched the fingerprint to a known terrorism suspect then in Spain. The only reason the fingerprint matched the American was because it was slightly smudged.

    4. Re:Easy Solution by Zone-MR · · Score: 2, Informative

      Even worse, what if someone hacks into the police database and creates fake gloves with other people's fingerprints etched in them?

      That's why fingerprint databases don't store the full image of a fingerprint, only hashes which can verify a fingerprint, but not reconstruct it.

    5. Re:Easy Solution by AlecC · · Score: 2, Informative

      Wrong, I think. They index the databases using hashes, because otherwise a linear search of the whole database would take forever. But if they get a hit, they pull up the raw data to let a human have an opinion of the quality of the match. It doesn'rt matter during the detection stage, but courts won't take a machine's word for it on the match - they insist on a human experts opinion on the match between suspect and scene-of-crime.

      --
      Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
  4. J311-0 by lunarscape · · Score: 5, Funny
    The experiments focus on making artificial fingerprints in gelatin from a latent fingerprint

    That's great to know that some of the world's most sophisticated security systems can be circumvented with Jell-O

    1. Re:J311-0 by Braingoo · · Score: 4, Funny

      Bill Cosby would be proud Hey kids would jou like to try some Jell-o. jou can even use it to steal yor parents credit card number to buy more jell-o!

  5. So if you can open your car with fingerprints... by cacheMan · · Score: 3, Insightful

    make sure not to touch your car much or leave it parked in the same place too long.

  6. fix? by ncurses · · Score: 2, Interesting

    An easy way to fix this, although I am no expert, is to make the fingerprint scanners heat sensitive. If the fingerprint matches and is within 1 degree of 98.6 F, then it opens. I think that would prevent people from holding a thing of gelatin against it, and it would prevent people from holding a lighter under it, because it has to be within 1 degree. It's not a flawless way to fix it, but it would make it at least a bit more difficult to foil, neh?

    --
    Help! I'm being repressed!
    1. Re:fix? by tomcio.s · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Not at all actually, your extremedies (hands, feet) change temperature faster than the core of your body, and most people's extremedies are either colder (more common) or warmer (?) than the core of their body. So to make it heat sensitive would be to deny access to most users.

    2. Re:fix? by ecklesweb · · Score: 3, Insightful
      A person's external skin temp is going to be a lot less than 98.6, and I think it's going to be a lot more variable than a person's internal temperature. Even if that wasn't true, your system would deny access to anyone with a cold and a 1.1 degree fever. Beyond all that, how much harder would it be to mold that fake fingerprint into, say, latex intead of gelatin, and then putting it on the end of an electric heater that pumps out your magic 98.6 degrees?

      Is this is the state of our security today?

    3. Re:fix? by SlamMan · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Won't work, for all the reasons specified. However, what about recording the body temperature as well as the fingerprint?

      --
      Mod point free since 2001
    4. Re:fix? by AKAImBatman · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's not a flawless way to fix it, but it would make it at least a bit more difficult to foil, neh?

      It would also be impossible to use. 98.6 degrees is the temperature of certain orifices in your body. These orifices are generally pretty good at maintaining a certain amount of heat. However, your hands and feet are extremities that do not keep a constant temperature. In fact, your body will sometimes shut off the blood flow if it needs the heat somewhere else.

      This means that you'll never be able to accurately predict the lower bounds of finger temperature. Someone may have just been outside in cold weather. Or they may have poor blood flow to their hands (e.g. my wife's hands barely even show up on an heat sensitive screen). Similarly, they may have just touched a warm car door, or lit up a cigarette. Maybe they have some coffee in their hands.

      Basically, there's almost no way short of human or artificial intelligence to near flawlessly determine if the fingerprint belongs to a real human or not.

    5. Re:fix? by stratjakt · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The temperature of your fingertips is going to vary widely. If you've been holding a cup of coffee, it'll jack up to 110, 120 maybe, if you just came inside it could be down around 60 or so.

      98 degrees is an average core body temperature, extremedies generally run cooler. Thats why your testicles hang down - they dont work at 98 degrees, they need to be cooler. It's also why briefs and tight pants make you sterile.

      Besides, all you'd have to do is put the fake finger in a cup of warm (98 degree) water..

      I think the real solution is to realize that this kind of shit only works in movies or cartoons right now.

      --
      I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
    6. Re:fix? by HaloZero · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Unless it's ballistics gelatin. The stuff, allegedly, can almost match the conductivity of human flesh. Don't you watch MythBusters? (:-P)

      --
      Informatus Technologicus
    7. Re:fix? by Ralph+Wiggam · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I've worked with machines that try to calculate body fat percentage by measuring conductivity across a person's body. What they really measure is how hydrated a person is. The fluctuation is proably less when measuring just a finger or hand. Hand lotion would proabably mess with conductivity, too.

      -B

    8. Re:fix? by lachlan76 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      And what if i'm sick and I need to go through?

      How many people would want to live at work every time they get the flu? Someone would let them out eventually, but it makes thing harder. And I can rub the gelatin mould in my hand, to warm it up.

  7. In the great words of Sean Connery by imranius · · Score: 5, Funny

    "I'll show you a finger, Trebek!"

    - SNL Celebrity Jeopardy

  8. Something you have and Something you know by VinceWuzHere · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I really don't think that ANY biometric system will be foolproof until the old basic of security is implemented. The scheme is called "Something you have and Something you know" (someone out there does know the right name even if I can't remember it at the moment).

    Think of the simple RSA keyfob some of us carry; it gives us a number and we use that PLUS a password to get into secure systems (have + know).

    Carry this one step further and have the system check your fingerprint/handprint/iris/whatever PLUS ask for a password.

    I personally think it's damn scary in this age of terrorism that someone could fake a biometric and get onto a plane; if the airlines for example issued me a unique password to go along with fingerprint (or whatever) recognition then I'd feel a whole bunch better about the entire process and the underlying technologies.

    1. Re:Something you have and Something you know by Tryfen · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The mantra used to be something you know (password), something you have (ID card), something you are (fingerprint).

      The problem is that "something you are" is just a really weak version of "Something you have". Why is it weak? Because once it is compromised, you can never get it back. Never.

      If my RSA fob is stolen, I can get it reissued. If my password is stolen, I generate a new one. What am I supposed to do when my fingerprint shows up on Kazza? Sure, I can use one of the other nine, then once they're compromised, use my toes, after that...?

      Biometrics have a (small) part to play in security. But relying on them for anything important is daft.

      T

      --
      If a square is really a rhombus, why aren't all triangles purple?
    2. Re:Something you have and Something you know by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative
      Right, because the 09/11 hijackers had to fake ID to get on their planes. Oh wait. No, they didn't--they complied with all ID requirements using their real ID.

      If you must fear something, fear sleeper agents more than known international terrorists. Besides, terrorists hit where you don't expect (so, planes should be safe for the foreseeable future).

    3. Re:Something you have and Something you know by BluedemonX · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The reason why many of these systems don't have a "something you have, something you know is".... because somebody (whose "software company" consists of nothing but patent lawyers sitting on ideas) patented that idea.

      None of the companies that manufacture biometric scanning technology can implement that without running afoul of the patent.

      And the amount this shyster company is asking for is ludicrous. Hence, that kind of system is never used.

      --

      --- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
    4. Re:Something you have and Something you know by MindStalker · · Score: 5, Funny

      Now, a clever man would not use a plane, because he would know that only a great fool would repeat the same method. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose to attack with a plane. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly have to attack with a plane.
      Because counter-terrorist come from America, as everyone knows. And the America's is entirely peopled with infidels. And infedels are used to having people not trust them, as you are not trusted by me. So I can clearly not attack with a plane.
      and you must have suspected I would have known you where an infidel, so I can clearly have to attack with a plane.
      You've beaten my Sadam, which means you're exceptionally strong. So, you could have placed your men on the plane, trusting on your strength to save you. So I can clearly not choose to attack with a plane. But, you've also bested my sleeper cells. And in studying, you must have learned that terrorist are dangerious so you would stay as far away from us as possible, so I can clearly attack with a plane.

    5. Re:Something you have and Something you know by valkraider · · Score: 2, Funny

      Son of a beeyatch. Yesterday I waste mod points because I find nothing worth modding... Then Today - there is this, just dying for Mod points...

      Mod parent up, +1 Princess Bride

    6. Re:Something you have and Something you know by hawkeyeMI · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Could you post a link or information about which company this is?

      --
      Error 404 - Sig Not Found
  9. So you can expect... by manavendra · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ..the passports to be changed yet again, to have "better", "smart" fingerprint recognition/imprinting techniques?

    --
    http://efil.blogspot.com/
  10. Are you surprised? by The_Real_Nire · · Score: 2, Insightful

    These have been, and probably always will be easy to fool. If anyone needs ultra-high security, it's doubtful that they'd choose this form of biometrics to begin with, unless they themselves are foolish.

    As is true with any security measure, if it can br beaten, the geeks will find a way.

    1. Re:Are you surprised? by Mz6 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Which still means that ANY highly secretive area will still be secured by a person (as is with the military). This person will know everyone that is allowed access into that area. Thus no need for a finger-printing device, then an eye scanner like in the movies. People will still do this.

      --
      Hmmm.
  11. Great minds think alike by VinceWuzHere · · Score: 4, Informative

    From the document abstract... "A description of different liveness detection methods is presented and discussed. Methods requiring extra hardware use temperature, pulse, blood pressure, electric resistance, etc., and methods using already existent information in the system use skin deformation, pores, perspiration, etc."

  12. fingerprints at all... by tuxette · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Probably old news to some, but here's an interesting article about how fingerprints are perhaps not infallible, unique ID, with a link to this article

    Who cares about the scanners when the real problem lies in something entirely different?

    --
    People say I'm crazy, I got diamonds on the soles of my shoes...
  13. A more foolproof method by foidulus · · Score: 2, Funny

    For the Swedish bikkinni team anway, should use other "appendages" to authenticate the message.

  14. Okay. by Red+Dane · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Just wanted to interject... I suppose it depends on whether you have one that bounces small radio signals off of the inside of your finger or one that simply captures an image. Certain fingerprint readers bounce radio signals off of the inside of your finger and read the underlying tissue structure (no, I'm not going to plug the product here). This prevents people from doing what she did at the trade convention. Fingerprint technology is always improving, and I'm sure that the industry will take this to heart and make these things even more complex. When you get right down to it, the systems aren't as complex as you might think. Most fingerplate templates weigh in from anywhere to 300 - 600 bytes in size.. but that is more to ease hardware requirements. I think they will combine other methods in the fingerprint taking process and eliminate these problems. Just my take on it, tear it apart guys ;)

    1. Re:Okay. by iabervon · · Score: 2, Informative

      The thesis tested one of those at the trade show. You wear the artificial fingertip on your real hand, so it contains normal human tissue and bone structure. In fact, the real issue is that a real finger has a bunch of non-distinctive live matter covered by a layer of distinctive dead matter (your epidermis, with your fingerprints, is dead cells). It's very difficult to detect the difference between dead matter that's supposed to be there and dead matter that's not supposed to be there.

      Obviously, wearing the fake on your real hand is necessary if you want to fool the security guard as well.

  15. Lo-tech method by Zog+The+Undeniable · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I believe c't magazine successfully fooled more than 50% of scanners by placing a clear plastic bag, filled with water, on top of the glass. This makes the greasy residue of the genuine user's fingerprint show up clearly to the scanner.

    --
    When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
  16. The CIA will love this by Timesprout · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If its so easy to falsify fingerprints then they will want more. Say hello to have a DNA sample taken at birth to be used as ID for the rest of your monitored exixtence.

    --
    Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
    What truth?
    There is no dupe
    1. Re:The CIA will love this by macemoneta · · Score: 2, Informative
      DNA is not unique (maternal twins). Even worse for DNA testing is a Chimera, who carries two unique sets of DNA in different body parts.

      There is not such thing as an absolute proof of identity, only a trust relationship.

      --

      Can You Say Linux? I Knew That You Could.

  17. It's wafer thin... by MojoRilla · · Score: 4, Funny

    From the thesus...

    The main problem with liveness detection methods based on extra hardware, is that the scanners have to be adjusted to operate e±ciently in different kinds of environments, leading to problems when using a wafer-thin artifcial fingerprint glued on to a live finger.

    And finally, monsieur, a wafer-thin fingerprint. Oh sir...it's only wafer thin.

  18. Re:james bond by dcphoenix · · Score: 2, Informative

    You're right about that. It was in Diamonds Are Forever. Bond was posing as a diamond thief, if I'm remembering correcting, while meeting with the real theif's contact for something. The real theif and the contact had never actually meet face to face before and the only identification she had to verify his identity were his finger prints. So, Q mad a set of fake "press on" prints for Bond.

  19. even if they did work by Nf1nk · · Score: 2, Interesting

    they may not work for me. I have a chemical burn on three of my fingers on my right hand. It still hasn't healed properly and the scar tissue keeps rearanging itself (small blisters keep forming). My other hobby, wood carving, leaves me with several fresh cuts on my hands and fingers each week, from these I can see changes in my prints.

    --
    I used to have a cool sig, back when I cared
  20. Accidental Discovery by The+Slashdolt · · Score: 4, Interesting

    In a former career I spent time mixing cement. One day I was mixing a small amount in a 5 gallon bucket. At the time I had nothing to mix it with so I used my hand. After mixing I washed my hand and it was amazingly smooth. I didn't think much more about it. The next day the skin on my hand was very sore. I looked at it and noticed that the mixing had worn down the top layes of skin on my hand. To the point where I barely had any fingerprints at all. So if you want to remove your fingerprints temporarily in a somewhat painful(but not excruciating) way, just mix up a bucket of concrete with your hand..... Hmmmm, is this a circumvention device?

    --
    mp3's are only for those with bad memories
    1. Re:Accidental Discovery by WormholeFiend · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I had a similar experience when I worked at a summer job at industrial egg incubator facilities... we had to clean everything with bleach and even with all the protective clothing and gloves, we still all lost the friction ridges on our fingers and hands.

      Fastforward to years later, I have to get a security clearance, and therefore have to get fingerprinted... So I asked the cop about this sort of situation.

      He told me that if they can't let a suspect go until they can ascertain his/her identity. So it's in the suspect's best interest to have printable fingerprints.

      Obviously this cop wasnt very forthcoming with answers for all possible situations, but I would assume that if your prints have to be scanned to open some sort of security mechanism or to obtain access to a secure area, you have to have readable fingerprints, otherwise you're S.O.L.

      (OT side note: at that summer job, I also learned that egg incubator facilities have to employ specially trained Japanese sex differentiators, and that the best ones all come from Japan, with a less than 1% margin of error -- they pick up each chick, and look at its ass, then put it on the male or female conveyor belt. Don't ask me what they look for to make the difference between males and females, they never told me.)

  21. Fact is... by csirac · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ... defeating fingerprint scans is a lot harder than stealing a PIN.

    1. Re:Fact is... by Macka · · Score: 2, Insightful


      I think that's rubbish. If I want to steal your fingerprint then I don't have to actually take something from you at all. I could just follow you around and watch what you touch or pick up, and then go back a take my sample a long time after you're gone. Hell I could even visit your car or front house door late at night.

      Stealing a PIN is way way harder and requires considerable more effort and resources than that.

  22. They'll stay to raise the threshold... by MyNameIsFred · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There is an old saying that is attributed to the Secret Service. They can't stop someone really dedicated from killing the President. All they can do is raise the level of difficulty so high that the average individual won't be able to do it. I think that is applicable to the fingerprint scanners used in American airports. Yes, they can be beat, but they raise the threshold. They won't catch the dedicated/educated terrorists, but it will help against idiots. And stopping idiot terrorists is still a good idea. And don't fool yourselves, a lot of terrorists are idiots. Just look at the Shoe Bomber, not what I would call England's best and brightest.

    1. Re:They'll stay to raise the threshold... by rcamans · · Score: 3, Funny

      Hey - maybe the shoe bomber was England's best and brightest!

      --
      wake up and hold your nose
    2. Re:They'll stay to raise the threshold... by hackstraw · · Score: 4, Insightful

      All they can do is raise the level of difficulty so high that the average individual won't be able to do it.

      I would describe John Hinckley, as average at best, and he stepped forward from a crowd of television reporters and fired six shots hitting the President (Reagan) and others.

    3. Re:They'll stay to raise the threshold... by emptor · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Actually the saying goes something like "They can't stop someone who is committed enough to sacrifice their own life from killing the President."

    4. Re:They'll stay to raise the threshold... by AviLazar · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There is another saying (more or less), if you are willing to go to the extreme to accomplish something (extreme being killed, caught, etc) then you have a much greater chance of doing it.
      Yea he shot the President - when the President was in lower security then normal (walking to his car surrounded by about 8 people is barely any security, especially when a ton of people are surrounding them). But what happend to him? Did he sneak away? Nope - he got busted. Now try and shoot the president AND slink away, that becomes much harder.
      Having security, even that which can be circumvented by SOME, is better then not having any security at all. To leave the doors wide open because a few can get passed the locked doors is foolish to say the least.

      --

      I mod down so you can mod up. Your welcome.
    5. Re:They'll stay to raise the threshold... by Patik · · Score: 2, Funny
      John Hinckley ... stepped forward from a crowd of television reporters and fired six shots hitting the President (Reagan) and others.
      Are you sure this really happened? Later on, Reagan couldn't remember the incident happening.
  23. Re:Could someone explain 4.5.3 to me? by Apocalypse111 · · Score: 5, Informative

    I myself have an identical twin brother, and our fingerprints are nothing alike. Fingerprints are a developmental feature, not a genetic one.

    --
    There is no mod option "-1: Disagree" for a reason. "Overrated" is not an acceptable substitute. Post something instead.
  24. Non-US student by AragornSonOfArathorn · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Good thing this was written by a student who is NOT a US citizen or she would probably be prosecuted under the DMCA.

    --
    sudo eat my shorts
  25. Re:Oh, come on.... by Red+Dane · · Score: 2, Informative

    Okay, Assuming you are still reading this.. check out the Tensor 4210 sub-dermal reader, there are a lot of other products out there that do the same thing. If it can be found OEM, then it might be worth half a poop. Otherwise you're married :( product marriage + attempted product development = low return/failure. But I'm preaching to the choir here ;)

  26. Re:Could someone explain 4.5.3 to me? by rembem · · Score: 2, Informative

    Twins don't have the same fingerprint. Twins have similar prints because the basic print is determined genetically. However prints can be altered in the amniotic environment. The skin of a fetus is "soft" and "pruny" like you are when you are in the bathtub. Depending on how the fetus is laying or pressed against something the prints can be molded slightly differently in each twin. So they are not identical but similar.

  27. Story by HarveyBirdman · · Score: 3, Interesting
    I wrote a SF story in college where there were fingerprint scanners that also looked at the skin oils and other biometrics. The protagonist had to use an elaborate device to fake a finger print. If I recall, it was a micro-pingrid array with synthetic skin on the tops of the pins, and little cannister of actual skin oil and other stuff. You could program the pins to be anyone's fingerprint, and the bio-goos would be mixed to the appropriate levels. Of course, it worked perfectly.

    Just thought I'd mention it. :) The story also had "heavy water fusion batteries" 4 years before the world learned the term "cold fusion". This was back in 1985 before my creativty was destroyed by life and career and reality television.

    --
    --- Ban humanity.
  28. Re:Why am I not surprised... by HermanZA · · Score: 4, Funny

    Man, do you realize how small a quantum leap is? It is the closest thing to nothing in the universe...

  29. Re:Slashdot How-to.. by WormholeFiend · · Score: 2, Funny

    Why would you want to photocopy the fingerprint of the severed finger when you can just place the severed finger on the fingerprint scanner?

  30. Liveness detection by lucifuge31337 · · Score: 3, Funny

    The main problem with liveness detection methods based on extra hardware, is that the scanners have to be adjusted to operate efficiently in different kinds of environments...

    "So why does it have a rectal probe?"

    "That's just part of the design."

    --
    Do not fold, spindle or mutilate.
  31. How about incorporating pulse oximetry by beesquee · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Incorporating pulse oximeters (those little things with the red light they put on you fingers while in the hospital) could make it harder to use Jell-o fingers. They verify it is a real finger by sensing blood oxygen and pulse and then the scanner would verify the identity. They are also cheap and realiable Just a thought.

    --
    Things are not as they appear, nor are they otherwise
  32. calcium hydroxide burns by SuperBanana · · Score: 5, Informative
    In a former career I spent time mixing cement. One day I was mixing a small amount in a 5 gallon bucket. At the time I had nothing to mix it with so I used my hand. After mixing I washed my hand and it was amazingly smooth. I didn't think much more about it. I looked at it and noticed that the mixing had worn down the top layes of skin on my hand.

    Uh, that's because calcium hydroxide -burned- it off, not "wore it down". It's actually quite common, because there is a delay between exposure and reaction. Well, that and people think "hey, it's just rocks and dirt and stuff, i don't have to wear gloves..."

    1. Re:calcium hydroxide burns by geoffspear · · Score: 2

      Which is odd, because every bag of concrete mix I've ever seen has very clear warnings printed on it telling you that when mixed with water, this product will burn your skin. I realize you can print warnings on products as clearly as you want and people won't read them, but you'd think people with a career in mixing cement would realize this.

      --
      Don't blame me; I'm never given mod points.
  33. Not conclusive... by DarthBart04 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Has anyone read the actual report?

    In order to get the latent prints (from which the 'fake' prints are created), the experimenters had their subjects wipe their finger on their nose (to make the latent prints easier to capture), had them press their finger on a glass platen, and even checked if their fingers had scars (if so, they chose another, better finger).

    With this kind of cooperation and preparation, no wonder they beat the systems. As anyone knows, once you have someone on the inside you can break any security system.

    In the real world, latent prints are blurred, not defined; smudged, not clean; and might not even be the finger the user has enrolled in the fingerprint device itself. Fingers don't come with labels like 'index' or 'thumb'.

    Again, if the experimenters retrieved their samples from a dirty beer glass in a smoky bar I'd be more concerned, but...they didn't. The world of the lab is a lot different from the real world.

    Let's take these reports in context, fellow Slashdotters.

    In any case, I say we argue for fingerprint devices that protect fingerprint templates by matching and storing them on-board a device that you carry with you as another reply mentioned, where the fingerprint templates are encrypted or protected.

  34. Huh? by blunte · · Score: 2, Funny

    I didn't really understand anything you said, but I see you managed to mention testicles in a /. post, and that was cool...

    [cue Butthead laugh]

    --
    .sigs are for post^Hers.
  35. What's the big deal by icejai · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Fingerprint scanners are exactly that.

    Finger. Print. Scanners.

    They're not "Absolute Identity Verifiers", or "Identity Truth Machines".

    They are simply tools to be used with other forms and methods of identification. Are *all* fingerprinting validation systems supposed to include "temperature, pulse, blood pressure, electric resistance, etc"? Only if some company were relying on fingerprints ALONE to verify someone's identity. But NO company would rely on fingerprints alone. Also, it would make the machine MUCH too costly for anybody to buy.

    The bottom line is, yeah sure, fingerprint scanners can't tell the difference between a human finger and a gelatin one. But if a fingerprint is *all* that it takes to get access to something, then the institution has problems that dig far deeper than the inadequacies of any fingerprint scanner.

  36. life imitating art by slartibart · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I swear, the only reason people keep pushing for fingerprint ID machines is because they saw them in movies and thought they looked cool.

    Imagine if the keyring that you currently keep in your pocket, kept leaving copies of itself on every object you touch. Imagine anyone who found a copy (with a little work) could drive your car away or freely spend your money or walk right in the front door of your locked house. Now imagine that the worst has happened, that someone has stolen a copy of your keys. Currently, it's rather inconvenient, you must create new keys (and sometimes, locks). Now tell me, how do you change your keys when the key is your right thumb? You can't. Once your key is stolen, you're totally screwed, forever.

  37. It's even easier than that. by pclminion · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Forget making crude copies of authorized fingerprints... It's even easier than that.

    A friend of mine in the office has some sort of skin condition which causes his hands to produce very acidic sweat. It's acidic enough to buff the leather on his steering wheel and gear shifter. His fingers will erase the letters off the keys on some keyboards (I assume some keyboards use better quality ink that is more resistant). Coffee mugs with cheap paint on them suffer the same fate on the handles.

    This person can open any fingerprint-protected laptop in the office (we bought a bunch of these from some company who was beta-testing them, they are now out of production) and make it boot. He just smears his fingertip onto the sensor and wiggles it a little bit, and the machine accepts it as an authorized print.

    These fingerprint detectors are of the capacitance-coupling variety. I don't know if the same trick works with the other fingerprint sensor technologies.

  38. just another argument against cheap stuff by rozz · · Score: 4, Insightful

    this thesis is only a better documented, nicely written replay of a japanese experiment from some years ago :
    the matsumoto experiment

    and it surely doesnt mean the biometrics are not secure!

    a complete biometrics based security solution has 3 "components" :

    Something you know: e.g. a password or a PIN.

    Something you hold: e.g. a credit card, a key, or a passport.

    Something you are (biometrics): e.g. a fingerprint, iris pattern, etc.

    their demonstration only fooled the 3-rd component of such a system ... which means they got NOTHING! ... plus, the most secure fingerprint scanners read the biometric info from under the epidermis(the outer "dead" skin) and are not so easily fooled with an artificial finger or fingertip ... the fact that they tested cheap of-the-shelf hardware is not exactly concludent.
    The whole study is just an argument against bad hardware and sloppy security systems, not against the usage of the biometrics .. while unfailible security does not exist, biometrics can make a big difference when used right!

    --
    "There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
  39. Is it possible to fool iPaq fingerprint scanner?? by rwrife · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Wonder if her techniques would fool the fingerprint scanner on the high-end iPaq PPCs?? It's not the type you press your finger on, you have to roll your finger over a narrow scanner...so the "gelatin" technique doesn't seem like it would be as effective on the rolling sytems because you'd be stretching/skewing the gelettin imprint....just a thought.

  40. Re: stage makeup, fake finger by arth1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    IMHO, a fingerprint scanner works well enough as a basically useful screening device. Sure, it can be fooled, like most people or devices... but it's like your door locks at home. Won't stop a professional with lockpicks, but serves the general purpose.


    There's a big difference. If someone compromises your lock, you can change it.
    If someone compromises your finger, you can't chop it off and grow a new one. Your method of authentication is screwed for the rest of your life.

    --
    *Art
  41. Not to worry ... by quarkscat · · Score: 2, Informative

    when the National Guard were deployed to the
    USA's airports, they were never issued ammo.
    The worst they could have done is install their
    bayonet (for crowd control purposes(?)).

    It was strictly a Bush PR move. And 2-1/2 yrs
    later, the situation regarding the "war on
    terrorism" hasn't evolved much. The USA still
    has unguarded borders and seaports. Both
    illegal immigration and the rate of identity
    theft are both higher now than before 9/11/01.

    It sure isn't any comfort that fingerprint
    scanners are so ineffective, just as have
    iris scanners also proven to be. What's
    next? Maybe implanted RFID chips?

  42. It's Not Only What You Are by eidola · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Any reasonable authentication system will require more than one factor, only if you have someone's ID card and passphrase would this work in a 2 or 3 factor scenario. Maybe a concern for Lexus but not for most access control systems. In the world of biometrics its a trade off, throughput, accuracy and price for customer acceptance. Fingerprint is easy to use and inexpensive.