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VoIP Questioned
87C751 writes "C|Net is carrying a very FUDdy story on the downside of VoIP telephony. Alongside the reasonable point of 911 dialing being unavailable during service and power outages, the writeup mentions broadband over power lines as a possible solution to the power failure problem. (talk about your cognitive dissonance!) It also notes that VoIP customers may not be listed in the local phone book, causing problems with "major fast food companies" (do they mean pizza deliveries?), and that Tivo requires a POTS line for initial setup (which sounds like Tivo's problem, not VoIP's)."
huh, my Series2 Tivo setup just fine over my broadband connection...
Seems VoIP is still in it's infancy...
I'll be waiting for it to move out of Gen-1 status to the Gen-2 or Gen-3 devices.
What amazes me is the lack of talk regarding the security of these devices...
Tivo may not work, but Dish Network's DVR does. I moved this weekend, and had Dish Network set up. I already had an internet connection, so when the dish installers asked for a phone line, I quickly unpacked my Vonage box, plugged it in and let it initialize, then plugged the DVR into it. It's working without any troubles now.
With that said, I love using Vonage, and hope I never have to deal with Verizon or SBC again.
This is a joke, right?
All the problems he mentions would certainly be valid points, but only if you're dumb enough to completely replace your phone system with VoIP!
I have VoIP, but I kept one of my POTS lines when I switched. Without long distance service, it costs me a miniscule amount per month, and I can still use it for my TiVo, alarm system, 911, and so on. Everything he brings up is such a non-issue, it's almost funny.
The only valid point he has is that it's difficult to get yourself listed in the phone book, but that's not a technical issue and should be resolved shortly.
This space intentionally left blank.
The Tivo series 2 units *do not* require a phone line for initial setup. It said (or possibly still says this) on the Tivo web site but you can easily find information to set it up via broadband. I know it doesn't because I set mine up without a phone line as all I have is my cell phone.
It also notes that VoIP customers may not be listed in the local phone book, causing problems with "major fast food companies"
;-)
That's horrible! Are you implying that some telemarketers won't be capable of easily obtaining my telephone number, and the local telephone company won't be capable of charging me to opt-out of the directory?
What a shame!
Do you like German cars?
Well, I guess that solves the problem of your internet connection being up while your power is down. I don't think it's going to help you much, though. I have an alternate solution, and it's called a UPS. Of course, if your ISP doesn't have their equipment on a battery backup, then you're screwed. Mediacom in Lake County, CA seems to have a very short-life battery backup on some of their hardware, because their network would actually go down before my UPS ran out (only a 650VA, and I had a 19" monitor at the time, plus an Athlon Tbird 1.4GHz) when the power failed, which is a common occurrence there.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Any new technology will face the exact same *kind* of issues. Users won't like it because of x, y, or z. The real issue isn't the technology itself but how well the businesses manage it, promote it, and so forth. Similarly, if usability doesn't improve, the issues in the article will become quite real and slow (or stop) any real progress in the market, and that would be the real crime.
How to Download YouTube Videos
Wow. that article is a total clusterfsck...
Broadband over power is dead due to FCC restriction...
TiVos can use an ethernet link and DHCP to get their updates... And besides, they make VoIP phone adapters...
And who wants their home number in a book anyway? I've forgone the "unlisted number" charge, and as a result received more phone spam than god ever knew...
Kinda makes me wonder who's pushing them to get this published on the website. Apparently noone interested in facts, or logic...
If I needed to dial 911, I'd use my mobile phone rather than the POTS/VoIP one, because it's in my pocket all the time, I'd be able to get the call made faster. I don't see this being an issue for most people. Anyway, my POTS telephone system (BT XD500 DECT) requires mains power to operate. If my VoIP doesn't work, chances are my POTS phones isn't working either.
Follow me
If you get one of the newer boxes, plug a USB network dongle into the back of the thing, hook it up to your LAN, and use the proper codes and config and such, it can do the initial setup via the network. It's not obvious via the menus and such, I grant you, but it can be done.
Which is anyway beside the point, as a lot of the VoIP services have boxes available that you can plug a POTS phone into, some of which can handle modem traffic just fine.
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
What, that if your computer is off it can't send information, but it'd still be able to send information over power lines?
How exactly do they intend to maintain a network over powerlines if the power lines are down, and if the powerlines supply the power to the datacom devices that are transmitting over them?
Never confuse volume with power.
or they wouldnt deliver to me. They wouldnt deliver to me even if I offered to prepay with a credit card.
Other pizza places dont have a problem with placing an order through a cell phone.
Of course this ignorant policy cost them a customer.
I imagine a VOIP line would cause even more problems.
The only issue I had with my VoIP (Vonage) service was yesterday with a disconnected call to my cable company about intermittent dropped cable modems connections.
I realized what happened and whipped out the cell phone.
As for the other points -
1. I'd rather not be listed.
2. I've had no problems with fast food delivery.
3. ReplayTV uses a broadband connection.
4. I have a UPS for the VoIP box, cable modem, router, cordless phone base-station. As long as the power outtage doesn't effect the cable company, I'm all set.
5. 911 - Between what Vonage DOES offer for 911 service, 2 cell phones (mine and my wife's), and close proximity to neighbors (townhouse)... I feel safe enough.
I've never been a big fan of the VoIP. Seems like a solution in search of a problem to me. I understand with large companies out there that run thousands of lines out a building, but for residential use, it just doesn't make sense. Am I missing something? My boss asked me if we should implement a VoIP solution for our (15-person) company, and my reaction has always been why? We already get dirt cheap (practically free) unlimited long distance, local calls, plus we have an analog phone switch that works fine. I have been seeking enlightenment in this issue since the idea first came out. My theory is that it involves people with too much time on their hands...
-Arthur
Cave ne ante ullas catapultas ambules
Funny I just setup my brand new DirecTV HD Tivo via a vonage line. No special codes, no special hardware (just what Vonage sent me a Cisco ATA) no fax line option. Realy what it is is persistances I probably redialed 20 times before it worked. My Googling for help led me down all sorts of roads with prefixes even plugging it into my fax line via vonage.
What it seems to come down to is packet loss I've been told that Packet loss is what kills modem connections over VoIP and that Vonage can alter your packet size to help compensate. I was trying late afternoon and had issues my Tivo has since automaticaly dialed up and is fine on Vonage probably due to the low packet loss in the early morning. I didnt even have to call vonage. It dosent work well but it does work.
No sir I dont like it.
I've owned four Tivos over the years and only once did I have to use a phone line for the initial setup, my very first Tivo back when there was no network support on them.
Your 48v (?) POTS line continues to provide current during emergency because the telco has backup power supply: there's virtually no complexity on the user side (the phone is powered from the line, and analogue phones are dead simple and largely robust electromechanical device).
On the other hand, even if your telco can keep PPP up during an emergency, and even if the telco pulled out 911 VOIP at the exchange and routed it on high availability circuits to operators to minimise internetworking failures, you still have the horrendous problem at the user side: i.e. complex customer home equipment that runs off domestic power that has large number of failure modes.
Even mobiles are better in an emergency (i.e. handsets have portable power, and the basestation and infrastructure has emergency power + failover features).
So even if you get QoS and all other other things in place to make VOIP really work: how the hell are you going to ensure high availability?
Otherwise, VOIP is going to great for multimedia conferencing and everything else.
And what about voice spam?
Your VoIP phone is sitting right there for any spammer to call. Now, there is no cost "barrier" for them to call you from outside the country. Now, most slashdotters will respond that they are l33t enough to create a whitelist-only calling system but the average Joe generally isn't offered this luxury and wouldn't be technical enough to understand how to implement it.
VoIP will become a new conduit for spam.
Life is the leading cause of death in America.
2. If the VoIP world goes the way of SIP then for it to truly work will require SIP service providers so that you can connect transparently to VoIP networks from any point in the world. Presumably there will be a charge for this service from those providers who will, in turn record customer account detailes and "numbers" no differently to the way traditional PSTN service providers do.
3. Even though there is no centralised email database, this does not stop someone who I want to email me (as well as others who I don't want to email me!) from getting in contact simply by handing out my email address to the appropriate people.
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
I would say it's less of a biz issue and more of a social issue. Most of society didn't grow up with the kinds of technology advancement we have today.
There is also what I have been told many times. "We've always done it that way, why change." Most people don't like change and that is a big change.
Evolution or ID?
One of the problems that VoIP doesn't have right now, but will if the INDUCE Act passes is getting Hollywood's approval for innovative new services: Hatch's Hit List #7 - VoIP
All of the concerns listed are legitimate, and have kept me from considering replacing my land line.
Here in Maryland, hurricane Isabel knocked out our power for a week last summer. Land line phones still worked, so we could call around to our friends and family, find someone who still has juice, head over and ride out the storm. With VOIP, our options would be drive around the state aimlessly, or hunt down a payphone, etc.. Forget that. And if the storm had of hit us hard, knocked a tree into our kitchen or something, I'm sorry, but 911 service is not a small, inconsequential feature that VOIP-zealots make it out to be.
The fast food delivery problem is less severe, but still there. Many pizza joints wouldnt even send a car out if they couldnt verify the address. They've been jerked around by cranks too many times. I've had friends with unlisted numbers or who were blocking caller-id have pizza joints hang up on 'em.
It's a nice idea, but one whos time hasn't come yet. At least not as the primary phone for my residence. Not until my connection to the 'net has the same level of reliability as my land-line.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
... now children, give me a 2000 word essay on VoIP.
I'd imagine that the bulk of kids these days would probably research the subject matter slightly better.
This writer clearly has NO IDEA on what he is talking about. Lets see if we can refute everything he says:
"TiVo, the digital video recording service, for example, requires a standard home phone line to complete the initial setup. Otherwise, you "can't get TiVo,"
I'm sure TiVo would be absolutely thrilled to use broadband for completing the setup. Just think of all the money they spend on 1800 calls for people to finish the setup. I'm sure they'd also be pretty happy to get viewer stats more or less in real time.
"That could lead to trouble dealing with businesses such as banks and major fast food companies that often check local phone listings to verify addresses."
How is this different from not being listed ? Why not raise the point that AT&T / Vonage need to provide a reliable database rather than spreading this line of "Fear".
"Some home alarm systems have trouble with broadband connections, or their manufacturers don't yet trust the reliability of the Internet."
The "some" being the companies that are too lazy to use more modern methods for monitoring.
"During a power outage, a VoIP phone is only as good as any battery backups on hand, because delivering power through the broadband connection isn't possible on a wide commercial basis. An emerging alternative broadband-delivery technique, broadband over power line, will solve this problem, but wide deployment is years away."
Where do I begin. Complete rubbish. Author probably read an article about it last month, so feels like he has to include it this month, just to get one back on New Scientist.
From here on in the article, we get a "dump" of interesting facts and other pieces of information that seem to completely go against what the author has just said.
Complete FUD. I wonder who's paying for the article.
[ Monday is a terrible way to spend one seventh of your life. ]
Yesterday, my daughter told me that she was having trouble hearing me because her next door neighbor's phone conversation was too loud. She even recognized the voice! Don't think for a minute that no one can hear. Even if you are on a wire connection, the other end may not be.
...and its great. I talk with our developers that are all over the world for nothing. Its also nice because I am a 20 hour drive from the office so I dont have to go in to answer my phone calls. The Asterisk voicemail system even emails me a wav file with Voice Mail in case I am not looking at the phone.
These articals are just FUD.
Free Unix? Free Windows. http://www.reactos.com
Because it's a conflict in what you know and new information.
In otherwords:
Point A: VoIP fails if the power is off.
and
Point B: Broadband over powerlines is better.
conflict because the base condition does not change: You can not communicate if your COMMUNICATION DEVICE itself does not have power. Cognitive dissonance is the need to rationalize or otherwise explain away information that contradicts information they already believe. In this case, it actually works both ways: VoIP must have flaws so I'll think of some whether or not they make sense. As well as: VoIP isn't as good as some other technology because it would fail in a certain condition THAT ALSO MAKES THE OTHER fail.
Never confuse volume with power.
I've always gotten around the charge for an unlisted number by simply giving them a bogus name to publish in the book.
I have been using my GSM standard digital phone exclusively for 4 years. I have dealt with most everything listed in this article. None of those things are of concern to me. While I can't help but wonder why TIVO needs a standard phone line to set up, thats TIVO's fault. If I really want, I'll just slap a TV Card into my computer, problem solved, one less sale for a company with an idiotic policy. And for that matter, like most Americans, I could probably do with watching less TV.
I used to have problems with some companies not accepting that I did not have a land line (Video Rentals, etc...), but have found in the last couple years as it has become increasingly common for people to drop their land lines, that companies have adjusted. For that matter, I always figure if they can't accept I don't have a land line, they can do without my business, that is capitalism after all. Those compnaies that adjust to the new world of cell phones and VOIP will survive, those that do not, won't. I for one have never had a problem going elsewhere if a video store or pizza parlor is so backwards as to not want my business over a telephone number. I'm usually all too ready to drop a polite note to that companies management explaining why they lost a customer. But again, It has been at least 3 years since I ran into any problem like that. As for not being in the phone book, I find that to be a definite plus. As I am on a "cell" phone, I almost never get telephone solicitations. Those rare times I do, all I have to ask is if they are aware they are calling a cell phone. At that point the solicitor profusely apologizes and asks if there is a better number to reach me at, to which I gladly respond, no.
This is not the sig you are looking for...
Yesterday, my daughter told me that she was having trouble hearing me because her next door neighbor's phone conversation was too loud. She even recognized the voice! Don't think for a minute that no one can hear. Even if you are on a wire connection, the other end may not be.
The ramifications go far. Lawyers can't legally demand attorney-client privilege for any information discussed over cell or cordless phones. I wonder what, if any, further legal statutes are needed?
"...The Bell operating companies, comprised of Verizon, Qwest Communications International, SBC and BellSouth, prefer to wait until they build high-speed fiber-optic connections to homes for their all-out VoIP launches."
Uh-huh... we'll all have telepathic brain implants by the time this happens.
sig has been sent away for a few small repairs...
911 - Cell phones are useless in an emergency. If you lived on the east coast you would have seen this in action on 9/11. And what's the point of using VoIP to replace your POTS if you keep the POTS around in an emergency.
And then what, I have to train everyone who comes into my home "hey if you need to call 911 you have to use the yellow phone in the den. No, not that phone, it wont work. Has to be this phone." What if I forget to tell someone, and I'm choking to death or having a heart attack, and they're using the wrong phone.
Phone book - that's great that you dont want to be in there. What if you ran a business, or had any other reason to want to be in there? Not everyone wants to live "off the map".
Pizza - depends on the store and their management, how much they've been jerked around by cranks, etc..
Tivo - "roll your own" is only a decent solution to about 0.0000000001% of the population. Fortunately, 99.9999999 percent of the population really dont give a shit about Tivo or think it's as magical and wonderful as slashdot does. They think it's lame to pay a subscription for the same tv listings that scroll non-stop on channel 10 (or wherever the tv guide channel is).
And, of course, unlimited LD is only a benefit if you make a lot of LD calls. I dont, and I pay 20 bucks a month for my land-line. VoIP really has nothing to offer me but some minor headaches.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
The guy came, and my internet and cable were fine. But I forgot to check for a dialtone before he left. It (of course) didn't work. Turns out they don't offer phone service in my area but hadn't informed me of the fact, or the fact they had cancelled my order for it. Anyway, no phone line and I'm sitting here with my TiVo 2.
Ok, no problem, I'll go get a wireless card and hook it up to my network. Done. No problem. Its downloading guides but it still thinks I live in the next town and the guide is the wrong one.
Ok, no problem, I call my friend who work for TiVo. He says I need to do a system reset. A system reset to change my service? A system reset.
Ok, no problem, I do a system reset. It starts asking me for my dialing options. Crap, it was just on the internet. Why is it asking for this now? I can't get it to work. I call up my friend at TiVo and he says they do the initial TiVo setup over the internet all the time with the latest firmware version (and I should have that version). However, they use wired ethernet. It might make a difference. He then told me that he was tired of answering my stupid questions and if I had any more I should read the bloody TiVo forums.
Problem - the forums say I'm screwed. My options are to buy ay wired usb etheret for my TiVo, or go door to with my TiVo under my arm and find a neighbor who will take pity on me. I don't know the neighbors. Crap.
So an hour later I'm in the living room of the 80 year old woman next door. I hook my TiVo into her VCR and spend about half an hour trying to figure out how to get the picture through. Turns out it needs a tape in the VCR. Ok. Picture. Great. Just plug it into the phone and we're good to go. But wait. No jack. Crap. Her phone is 50 years old and hard wired into the house.
An hour later I'm at some other neighbors with my TiVo, and my own VCR trying to fend off their cat, while my TiVo goes through its hour of setup. Whew. Finally.
I get it home and it works with my wireless network. Great.
Still have to get a phone though. Maybe VoIP is right for me? I find 1TouchTone.com and order it. $15 a month. Not bad. It comes, I plug the box into my router, and the phone into the box. It works! I go rip the phone companies wires off the outside of my house, and plug the phone box into a nearby phone jack. All the phones in my house get dial tone. Sweet.
I've really gotten addicted to the voicemail features. I get emails saying that I have a new voicemail. I get SMS saying I have new voicemail. The light on my phone blinks saying I have new voicemail. The email has an attachment with the wav file of my voicemail.
Comcast hasn't complained - yet.
I think that given the commentary, maybe a better headline for this would be "VOIP questioning questioned".
1) The price of VoIP's thriftiness
Sounds condescending to me, or designed to be scary, typical tag line to get you worked up over the topic. Passing judgement before the facts are presented.
2) If you have a home alarm system, need to dial 911, use TiVo or simply want your phone number included in the phone book, you're likely to be out of luck.
Home alarm system's and TiVo can change. TiVo is a simple non-essential piece of hardware which should change to accomodate such customers as VOIP catches on. Alarm systems will figure a way around this. Of course, if you feel you can expend money on an alarm system for your home, you can probably afford the current rates your phone company is charging. I'm not saying an alarm system is elitist... its just expensive.
As for phone listing, well damnit who cares? I'll pick up my next pizza. Besides, you can keep your old listing in the phone book when you switch to Vonage and as VOIP catches on this will be taken care of.
As for 911 dialing during power outages, the article willfully and obviously glosses over the possibility that people might have cell phones. This is what makes me feel this is FUDish, because, while the 911 issue is important, the article failed to cover this very important and obvious point. I believe they were afraid that the original alarmist tone of the article would have been defused because 911 dialing is important to everyone, while all those other points are only important to a select few.
3) VoIP certainly has it's selling points--unlimited local and long-distance dialing plans that are about 30 percent cheaper than standard services, dialing from any broadband connection and being able to choose a phone number regardless of your location--the TiVo situation if just the tip of the drawback iceberg.
First, try 50 percent, maybe more. Vonage has a plan for just $15 for 500 talk minutes, anywhere in the country. For local free calling and no special LD plans, Verizon charges me somewhere between $30 and $40.
Second, what the hell is the last part of that paragraph? It seems so cryptic to me.
4) Protecting your home could get tougher, as well. Some home alarm systems have trouble with broadband connections, or their manufacturers don't yet trust the reliability of the Internet.
Back to this a second, this sentences reeks of FUD, because it says "protecting your home could get harder." Not all of us buy alarm systems... goodness! I can't protect my home without a phone? GASP!
5) 911 calls over VoIP are usually routed through a third party, and there's been the occasional detour to an emergency call center in the wrong part of the country. Because of VoIP's mobility--subscribers can use any broadband connection anywhere--emergency operators won't automatically know where the person's calling from.
Facts please? I've heard of no such "detours." Can we have some proof to back this up please? Even instances from the slashdot community would be nice.
And yes, they do tout VOIP as being mobile, and yet 911 calls could be routed back home while you are on the road. However, this will be a learning point for early adopters, but future versions should handle this better. This is by design for the convenience of the customer.
6) The Bell operating companies, comprised of Verizon, Qwest Communications International, SBC and BellSouth, prefer to wait until they build high-speed fiber-optic connections to homes for their all-out VoIP launches. The so-called fiber-to-the-premises initiatives, however, could take a decade or more to complete.
Translation: They don't have the infrastructure yet and they don't want to kill their current phone business too fast
7) Both Cox and Comcast are promising faster VoIP rollouts.
Translation: they are counting on early adopters so that they can eat the baby bells' lunches.
8) Despite its drawbacks, VoIP is attractin
"All great wisdom is contained in .signature files"
I have Vonage for home, Voicepulse for business. They both work mostly well, but both have big issues:
1. Faxing - simply not reliable in general, forget about fax modems.
2. The directory listings issue is definitely just that - I almost couldn't open a bank account for my business because of it, and then was initially rejected for a company credit card.
However, with proper documentation, both of these things were overcome.
3. Online ordering? A _few_, thankfully not most, ecommerce outfits do a 'sanity check' on your phone number to see if it 'matches' your address.
4. Regional info line: can't dial 311 in NYC, which is pretty kick ass. You can, however, put the 10-digit 'out of area' version in your speed-dial.
5. Most of the services don't have in-code-7 digit dialing. Of course, we lost in that in NYC a while ago anyway for POTS.
6. Orphaning. As your VOIP provider starts using the newest, greatest, most bandwidth efficient VOIP adapter for new subs, earlier adopters with older adapters won't get the same features, or even the same level of service. This is definitely an issue with Voicepulse, may they burn in hell.
7. Roach motel portability - or no portability. You can port your phone# to vonage, but not out. You can't port your number to/from voicepulse.
Jonathan
911 operators have no way of tracing where you are calling from if you use your cell phone. On the other hand, if you dial 911 on your POTS line and drop the receiver because a bad guy is chasing you around the house, the operators must send the police to your house... and they know exactly where your call is coming from.
Only a couple years ago this was the policy because cell phones weren't very common, nobody (statistically speaking) had cut the cord and it was really about security- being able to put a phone number with a physical place.
This has changed over the last couple years as cell phones saturated the population. They are now too common to refuse the business.
As long as the store adheres to security policy, there really shouldn't be a problem. Just leave your phone on so they can make a security call-back before they leave with the delivery.
And make sure to keep it on you if it's on vibrate- one night I had to get a hold of this chick because she wouldn't answer the door and she never heard her phone 'cause it was set on vibe. A shame too, cause her order ended up getting there 40 min later than it had to (and, of course, I had to re-send the driver).
If you really get mad, call 1-800-DOMINOS (iirc) or go to www.dominos.com and fill out the email form.
"Couldn't you put a small-ish battery in the VOIP box and have it switch over in case of power failure?"
And how are you going to make sure people use the right type of boxes? Now we're taking FCC approval - all boxes certified to have backup operational mode that uses inbuilt cells or draws current from POTS.
Can you hear the outrage as industry and consumers are told that the FCC is going to regulate domestic CPE (customer premise equipment) to ensure HA and emergency capability?
Equally, can you hear the outrage when this doesn't happen, and we start to have reports of children dying because they couldn't get the 911 operator because VOIP was down because the little broadband wi-fi box was infected by a virus?
I don't know the answer - but these are some substantial roadblocks.
If you call 911 on your cell phone in Bay Area, you will be routed to the CHP Golden Gate regional center and immediately placed on hold for 10 minutes. At least that's what's happened to me twice. I have the "local" numbers of various agencies programmed into my phone now.
As for your cell phone working during an emergency, ha. As other posters have noticed, after even a minor disaster the first thing everyone does is jump on their cell phone. Since there haven't been any disasters in the SF Bay Area recently, my most recent data point comes from my brother, who was unable to use his cell phone for 45 min after the Seattle earthquake a few years ago.
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"