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Sun's "Java Powered" Campaign

Posted by Hemos on from the pushing-whatevery-they-can dept.

scapermoya writes "eWeek is reporting that Sun has started blitzing consumers , trying to increase public awareness about Java, with everything from accosting pedestrians to "Java Powered" logos begining to appear on some devices that are J2ME (Java 2 Media Edition) compatable. Tiny cup logos will now be pasted on everything from cell phones to microwaves." But not on Space Invaders clones.

60 of 286 comments (clear)

  1. I claim prior art by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Sun's a little slow, I've had one of these stickers on my coffee machine for ages.

  2. Blitz? by teiresias · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why would you blitz the general public? I don't think your average Mom walking down the street wants Java shoved at her unless it's in a cup and warm.

    --
    -Teiresias
  3. Consumers? by JohnFromCanada · · Score: 3, Informative

    Consumers don't care what language there application is written in as long as it does what is requested. I am a Java programmer and Sun seriously has to start doing something relevant with the language itself as it is loosing developers at an extremely fast pace. Java powered stickers will do no good when they have no developers left.

    1. Re:Consumers? by tcopeland · · Score: 4, Insightful

      > it is loosing developers at
      > an extremely fast pace

      Is it? Hm. To which languages? C#?

      I'm doing lots of Ruby programming lately, but I'm still doing quite a bit of Java, too....

      --
      The Army reading list
    2. Re:Consumers? by JohnFromCanada · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Extremely fast pace may be a slight overstatement however I would say there are many languages that are taking developers away from Java not just C#. An example of this is how all the students at the local Universities are petitioning to have Java removed as the core programming language as they are complaining that is just not applicable enough compared to other languages such as C#. By no means am I saying these concerns are legitimate but Java is definitely being hit hard lately. Furthermore, I do a lot of freelance work in Toronto for different companies and most of the ones that were using Java a year ago are now switching to the .NET platform. I could not say for the rest of the world but here in Canada Java is being hit hard and the majority of companies, at least that I have dealt with, are switching to .NET to get rid of Java all together. Not saying this is good or bad however I think it's clear, at least in Toronto, that Java is having a hard time keeping up and keeping developers on board.

    3. Re:Consumers? by rythos · · Score: 3, Informative

      I can account for the other side of Canada. In Vancouver the University of British Columbia just finished re-working all of their first and second year courses to be run with Java instead of C++ and Scheme. (yeah Scheme!)

    4. Re:Consumers? by JavaLord · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I would say there are many languages that are taking developers away from Java not just C#. An example of this is how all the students at the local Universities are petitioning to have Java removed as the core programming language as they are complaining that is just not applicable enough compared to other languages such as C#.

      I still see more Java Development jobs than any others here in the Northeast/tri-state area in the USA.

      I don't see why any school would want to drop Java as a core programming language, it's one of the most used languages out there, and it's abstraction and large API makes it possible to do pretty cool things easly. I couldn't see a first year comp sci student writing an internet chat room in C++, where as it's easy in Java.

    5. Re:Consumers? by Metasquares · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The University of Toronto is a big name in the field of AI, particularly logical reasoning and cognitive robotics. They've put out a lot of papers and software, and are responsible for the Golog language. Considering that these technologies may very well end up in the semantic web, among other future widespread technologies, it might be a bad idea to ignore what's going on over there. Corporate adoption dictates what the current trend is, but educational adoption predicts what the trend will be in the next decade or two.

    6. Re:Consumers? by hackstraw · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Consumers don't care what language there application is written in as long as it does what is requested.

      Well, not to flame but in my experience java sucks, and always has sucked. Forturnately, the marketing people at Sun have convinced them to follow the Solaris versioning and jump from 1.4 to 5.

      I guess I have to be more specific with its suckiness. Back when java was newer Netscape on Linux + Java = long lag & loadtime, then crash. This was back when Java was pushed as _the_ GUI app, because you could "Write once, run anywhere". Then the awt toolkit was not as crossplatform as hoped, then came swing, and then people stopped writing GUIs for java (for the most part). Then a little later, I was tasked to install Oracle on an NT box (or some other MS server, don't remember). It was the Java "Universal installer". It randomly hung, and just didn't work. Later I found out that I had to reboot the machine in 16 colors so the java installer would install. Then Sun ships things with their "webinstaller", which is actually the "javainstaller", but the marketing people were on vaction during that naming process. Anyhow, I've seen these guys fail to start if you launched them with the full path (complete with a traceback with linenumbers, etc, w00t!). Of course, it could find the classpaths if I ran it with ./application instead of /full/path/applicaton. Other webinstallers have failed in random places (again with complete tracebacks!). I've had certain versions of matlab that failed to start over remote X sessions because of jvm versions. A student I work with is doing a project in Java and he's still having problems in certain browsers, etc.

      These are all off the top of my head.

      Again, I'm not flaming, just stating my obvservations. I've programmed and run some java stuff on very small embedded systems like smartcards and iButtons with no real issues, but these were just toy projects that did not go into production.

      Now java seems most happy as a middleware language (application services or whatnot) on 3 tier web services, and having competition from .NET.

      Also, it has become the marketing puppet for Sun. Java desktop, Java this, java that.

      So yeah, as far as _this_ consumer goes, I care, and loathe running anything that is java.

    7. Re:Consumers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      An example of this is how all the students at the local Universities are petitioning to have Java removed as the core programming language as they are complaining that is just not applicable enough compared to other languages such as C#.

      Beware the Astroturf of Microsoft on campus!

      My school never had anyone intrested in a .NET or MS users group until Microsoft actually PAID some students to start one! Now they are always have events sponsored by MS and bringing in new books paid for by MS to the library or just doing various pro-MS propoganda.

      Now I'm not bitching about extra C# books in the library...what I am bitching about is Microsoft paying students to do things like "petition for the removal of outdated languages like Java from the curriculum".

      MS couldn't keep up with real grassroots Linux and BSD groups on campus so they actually had to PAY for students to create MS and .NET user groups! That's like prostitution and shame on the student whores who work with MS on this!

  4. Well another sticker... by derphilipp · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Well Microsoft - or better: the vendors do this with every nearly every x86, printer, mouse, soundcard, usb stick, external harddrive.... nerly every piece of hardware sold today. I'm waiting for a tux- and an apple-sticker (sometimes you can see the "finder-face" on certified compatible hardware (like I already saw on some newer laserprintes)

    --
    Spelling mistakes: My is english spoken not tongue of mother.
  5. Reminds me of the good old days... by tcopeland · · Score: 4, Funny

    ....of 1998.

    "We've got one million customers!"
    "For what?"
    "Our, er, free service. But I'm sure they'll give us money if we ask!"

    --
    The Army reading list
  6. The "Powered by Java" campaign must mean... by stankulp · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...that Sun is not going to release Java under the GNU General Public License anytime soon.

    --
    We must be alert to the danger that public policy could become captive to a scientific-technological elite. - Eisenhower
    1. Re:The "Powered by Java" campaign must mean... by tehcyder · · Score: 3, Interesting
      I don't think that follows, you get software and hardware boxes with little Tux stickers on now.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    2. Re:The "Powered by Java" campaign must mean... by packetrat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Um, no. They can take Java open-source, and still retain the rights to the BRAND Java. What's more likely is that they'll open-source parts of Java, but retain J2ME as commercially-licensed because that's where they see the real revenue coming from down the line.

  7. Students by secondsun · · Score: 5, Funny

    I feel sorry for all of the over caffinated students that are going to get branded when this is all over.

    Well the onlly marketable named product Sun has right now is Java, and they are whoring out their youngest child for crack faster than you can say Sweet Zombie Jesus. I like Java, I really do, but it's alphabet soup family of products reads like intrest groups at gay pride parades. J2ME5, J2EE5, JDBC, JWS, JNLP, J2SDk,J2RE, etc. Maybe they should focus on their other marginally successful products like... umm.. well... umm...

    --
    There is nothing wrong with being gay. It's getting caught where the trouble lies.
    1. Re:Students by olderchurch · · Score: 2, Informative
      From the Mozilla java FAQ:

      Windows

      On Windows, Mozilla can be used with Sun's Java Runtime Environment (JRE). It can not be used with the Microsoft Java VM, as that can only be used with Internet Explorer. Also, versions of Sun's JRE older than 1.3.0_01 will not work.

      It is possible to install JRE 1.4.2_05 from within Mozilla, using XPInstall technology. This is by far the easiest way to install Java. If you can not use XPInstall, you can download the JRE 1.4.2_05 full installer and use that instead.

      Mozilla's handling of XPI files is changing. For more details, see the XPInstall Changes FAQ.

      On some systems, JRE 1.4.2 does not work. In this case, you can use JRE 1.4.1_07 until the issue you are having is resolved.

      If you are using a zipped build of Mozilla or Mozilla Firefox, you need to add this registry entry. Some users report requiring it even if they have used the Mozilla Firefox installer, so try it first if you have problems with JRE 1.4.2 or later.

      --
      Disclaimer: This opinion was created without the use of any facts
  8. I like milk and sugar with my Java by ArgyleAgent · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Looks like a sign that Sun is getting a little worried about their hardware business. You can still make money off of free things, right?

  9. Sun is grasping... by ecklesweb · · Score: 5, Insightful

    From the article (a quote by Sun):

    "When consumers see the name 'Java,' they understand that has stuff that makes it work better on the Internet."

    That's just stretching it a little far. Java is (so far) a programming language, this JDS nonsense not withstanding. It only has stuff that makes it work better on the Internet if the developers design and code that stuff (using Java or something else).

    I wonder if Sun is going to dilute its brand among developers (where the Java brand really buys them something) by pushing the brand into a consumer light. I can understand Sun's desire to have a strong consumer brand, and maybe it's easier to start with an existing brand than to build one from scratch, but I just think they're going the wrong direction with this. If they want a consumer brand, why not try to revive "Star" or just build from the ground up. IF they have something serious to offer consumers, building the brand shouldn't be that hard.

    1. Re:Sun is grasping... by Kombat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Java is (so far) a programming language, this JDS nonsense not withstanding. It only has stuff that makes it work better on the Internet if the developers design and code that stuff

      Uh, that's the point. It already does. Developers have already "designed and coded" that stuff into the core API. Java's core framework is astutely network-aware. It is trivially easy to write a Java app that uses the network, unlike C, which requires a great deal more knowledge of low-level network functionality and threading models.

      --
      Like woodworking? Build your own picture frames.
    2. Re:Sun is grasping... by pjt33 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      That's just stretching it a little far. Java is (so far) a programming language, this JDS nonsense not withstanding.
      Well... In some contexts Java is a language; in others it's a platform. In the context of phones it's a platform rather than a language - if you're really worried about minimising your footprint you may find yourself assembling bytecode with Jasmin rather than writing Java source.
    3. Re:Sun is grasping... by Evil+Schmoo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem, as I see it, is the classic clash between a technology company and its public owners. Sun's stock price was absolutely hammered in the crash, and it has not even come close to recovering. I *still own* my Sun stock, because it's completely worthless to sell. Institutional investors, in particular, are not patient; they've been howling for Sun to return to its pre-crash levels for several years now.

      Over the past three years, the price has risen, slowly, to its current level of a little over $4 per share. And that's with the revamping of the company, and maintaining Sun's place in the tech community. If their stock price is going to return even to the mid-level position it held seven or eight years ago, Sun probably can't rely on the tech community to get there. They're going to have to rely on the public.

      Branding in tech is monumentally difficult, since you're dealing with such a huge information gap between techies and the vast majority of the buyers of the products don't have a clue as to what advantage AMD might provide over Intel, for example. The MOST selective of them might look up one or two specs, shut their eyes, and guess. The others will simply buy Dells.

      Java is one of the very few things that non-techies may have heard about in computing. Ergo, if you're going to try and build your stock price, you're going to have to hope that non-techies will respond to you in some new way. That's going to be much, much easier relying on existing brands that have some toehold with consumers, rather than introducing some new brand that means nothing to consumers.

      Microsoft, of course, is the champion of tech branding, and Intel is a pretty close second. If Sun has any hope of recovering its stock price (which I freely admit is a very different prospect than developing new or better technologies), it's going to have to develop a brand on par with these or Dell/Cisco. Not easy.

  10. Last time I checked by SwansonMarpalum · · Score: 4, Informative

    Last time I checked, J2ME is Java 2, Micro Edition, not Java 2 Media Edition. The point being that it is a very small virtual machine (as far as memory footprint and storage required)

    --
    "Give away the stone, let the oceans take and transmutate this cold and faded anchor." - Maynard James Keenan
  11. Re:Maybe I should have the logo tattooed on my arm by turgid · · Score: 5, Funny
    Because of how many times I goto starbucks in a day :)

    Argh! A BASIC programmer! In English there is no such word as "goto." :-)

    --
    Stick Men
  12. Yes, it's very much neccesary by lokedhs · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Du you thing the average mom cares about the fact that her windows machine has "Pentium inside"?

    It's called brand awareness. The point here is to make sure that people (and in the case of mobile phones, young people) equate "Java" with "cool games" and an "i need it" attitude. In the end this will (hopefully) mean that in order to be able to sell a phone, you need to support Java. In turn, this means that MS will have a that much harder time trying to get everyone to use the mobile version of .NET.

    In fact, here in europe we see this happening already. Every new phone that comes out has J2ME support, and when a phone doesn't have it is reviewed, it's always mentioned as a big minus point.

    I suppose (hope) we'll see the same thing happen in the US.

    By the way, didn't the latest MS "smartphones" have J2ME support these days?

    1. Re:Yes, it's very much neccesary by Milo77 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I remember reading in Andy Grove's book (something like Only the Paranoid Survive), that they thought their "Intel Inside" campaign was simply going to bias the customers to only want "Intel Inside" and be weary if they bought a computer that didn't have intel inside. Well, this did occur to some extent, but it came with a little surprise - when someone's computer didn't work, they called Intel instead of the PC manufacturer (bypass the pesky middleman, I guess). At the time, Intel didn't have the infrastructure to handle this since they were used to simply dealing with PC manufactueres and certainly not your average consumer. I wonder if Sun is ready to have my grandma call them up when her microwave stops functioning?

  13. Competing stickers by eltoyoboyo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It may seem like a lot of stuff will have Java powered stickers. However, the vast majority of microprocessor-controlled consumer electronics could well have a "[processor] Assembly Language Powered" or "[processor] Machine Language Powered" sticker - even the "Java powered" ones.

    Even if the knowledgable geek cares, Joe BestBuy consumer does not care and will not preferentially select a Java powered item.

    --
    Have you Meta Moderated t
  14. Sounds like a job I'd hate, personally by Bold+Marauder · · Score: 2, Funny

    [accosting J Random Pedestrian]"sir, I'd like to tell you about our"[gets punched and knocked to the pavement...again]

  15. But not on Space Invaders clones. by curtisk · · Score: 5, Funny

    Note: grousing about rejected Java game clones is Offtopic and usually gets moderated that way. It happens, don't take it personally.

    --

    Sehr geehrter Toilettenbenutzer!

  16. Did you count'em? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    The last time I looked at the numbers of Java developers, it was continuousily rising.

    But don't take my word for it:
    http://uk.news.yahoo.com/040629/221/eww5e.htm l

    1. Re:Did you count'em? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Those numbers are coming directly from a Sun press release. They count every download as a "new Java developer" which is clearly incorrect. Sun is going to make the numbers sound good in Javas favor as they are marketing it. Did you watch JavaOne? The rhetoric that they come up with to avoid the facts is truly amazing.

  17. Re:Maybe I should have the logo tattooed on my arm by tcopeland · · Score: 4, Funny

    > In English there is no such word as "goto."

    Correct. He should have used "setjmp".

    --
    The Army reading list
  18. cmdrtaco.net slashdotted by Seft · · Score: 5, Funny

    Oh dear, you gotta love the irony.

  19. pr for a programming language ? by Alejo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    java jvms written in language X... so every device running java should say powered by java/ powered by X ?

    1. Re:pr for a programming language ? by Crackez · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well, really, once the jvm is compiled, assembled, and linked so that it may be executed, it's just machine code. The original language used to implement it doesn't matter, ie. it's transparent.

      However, I for one would love to see "pwn3d by C" on the side of my microwave.

      It'd be sad though if we started seeing stuff like, "Powered by VB!" ... Sad indeed.

      it'd be funny, you be able to tell who the real geeks are when they goto circuit city to buy something...


      "null pointers dereferenced here" -sluts of C

  20. Java awareness by jrumney · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Before tackling Java awareness amongst the general public, you'd think that Sun would start with its own marketing department. Specifically what is and isn't Java (JDS, renaming all the old Netscape/iPlanet/Sun ONE products to Java... etc).

    No wonder the public is no clearer on what Java is than they are about .NET.

  21. The Intel Inside Factor by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Sun have finally woken up to the fact that most consumers are tech-dreads not tech-heads. They fear tech more than they welcome it and as such need to be comforted when faced with unfamiliar grounds. Intel realised this years ago and have made sure that unless there's an 'Intel Inside' ("_DUM_.do de dum DEE!") sticker on the side, people will worry and say, "What's the pentuim? Will it work without an intel inside?" Prepare for the "Is your microwave/fridge/car/computer/watch/relational_dat abase caffinated?" campaign. FUD works.

    Java on mobile has increased the framework's profile a LOT, especially amoung younger phone buyers. Even my kid brother knows about java games, and he can barely use e-mail. Java seems to mean 'fun' in the minds of some. Well maybe not, but it means Something!

    It must have finally clicked with Sun that people just won't magically get to know about java through the grapevine. You need stickers, Java Inside, Duke, Gosling's beard, hip coders(very hard to find :E) and big TV ads to promote your technology so people will say, "Hey what about Java? I'd like to have that." Essentially, to really sell a technology, no matter how good or bad it is, you have to play to the Pointy Haired Boss.

    Of course Sun would LOVE to to foster the belief out there that unless it's got Java, it's worthless. "Has it got Java? Will it work without that coffe sticker?" It could happen. I wonder will Microsoft realise a similar campaign. One based on a cup of tea perhaps? I wonder will .NET get a publicity campaign or will it just be shoved down our throats with pictures of smiling actors staring into PC screens(which we can't see). They may regret not using that cup of tea. Then again Sun may regret all that money wasted on sticker that people thought were promoting a new decaf drink.

    Disclaimer: Java is Good. Garbage collection is Smart++.

    --
    May the Maths Be with you!
  22. Media Edition? by lenhap · · Score: 3, Informative
    Umm come on...
    J2ME (Java 2 Media Edition) compatable.


    J2ME standands for Java 2 Micro Edition, a subset of J2SE, Java 2 Standard Edition. J2ME is meant for devices with limited resources. Wow, how did that get through to the front page...

    Heres a link...http://java.sun.com/j2me/index.jsp
    1. Re:Media Edition? by JensLH · · Score: 2, Funny

      I get the J2ME media/micro edition stuff. Now - what does "compatable" mean? :-)

  23. Also about Sun's new Java direction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Also on eweek.com, Sun's thinking about Java extension, and other new language stuff. This is cool, but get real. I am a Java loyal, but regardless, be objective and here is what I think:

    1) Gosling is not good to head the dev department. He's good as a tech guy, but not neccessary on direction and management. Often but not always, a very very nerdy guy can hardly be a good manager. You'll see my point in the next item.
    2) Fix bugs, make swing faster, less memory hog, and fix bug. I would like to emphasize fix bug. If you search, there's over 20 thousands bug/rfe. I would use a new release with bug fixes instantly versus the new 5.0.
    3) They don't have resource, then how could they create a thing new, usable, releasable? They're so thin on dev resource (from some of their forums, their developers said so), they should concentrate them on fix bug, improve speed, make the IDE, app server betters instead. That's call wise management. It's not going to do some cool stuff.
    4) Related, but not directly. To survive, they have to bring out hardware servers out quickly, using standard/generic component instead of years in reasearch. They'll come out with new sparc in 2005. Common, AMD and Intell come out with new CPU almost every month. For servers, why the heck they keep taking so long to come out with something? Just buy a white box, test it, and ship them. (over simplified).

    You could mark me troll, but please have mercy tell me why. And also, I am really interested in your wonderful different opinions.

  24. Deccan airways mishap ! by phreakv6 · · Score: 2, Funny

    I remember the last time they tried something big in India.They sponsored the launch of Deccan Airways.There was a coffe cup on the tail and Sun logo near the cockpit.Only that the picture of the plane landed up in top news paper headlines when the plane's body was on fire... seriously.. the inaugural flight with several ministers inside,caught fire and it looked as if Sun's new aircraft caught fire !! ;).. so much for publicity..

    --
    fifteen jugglers, five believers
  25. With all this "product awareness"... by hal2814 · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...all our stuff will look like NASCAR. First we have a label for the brand name. Then we had the label for the processor (Motorola, Intel, AMD, TI, etc). Then we had to get a label for the OS (MS Windows). Now we have the platform running on the OS. What's next? Maybe a label for the store that sold it to you. Or they could do a label for each company that preinstalls software on the device. They could even sell advertising space on the device.

    I for one would like a plain white microwave instead of the Goldstar/Motorola/Windows CE/Lowe's labelled microwave. If I want to know what my microwave is running, I'll look it up.

  26. Media Edition by essreenim · · Score: 3, Informative

    some devices that are J2ME (Java 2 Media Edition) compatable.

    Isn't it Java_2_Micro_Edition. Im sure it is..


    And what of it? They are Java powered. They have every right to. Just as long as there isn't a really annoying noise like Intel's everytime a Dell add . etc comes on.


  27. Java phones... by shic · · Score: 2, Interesting

    They would do well to start with developer awareness...I was bemused that while I could find lots of phones touting "support for java games" - I couldn't find satisfactory documentation on what this means. I've no interest in games per-se, however given a blue-tooth phone with support for Java - I am interested in business applications. I want to find out if I can use blue-tooth phones in cryptographic authentication systems; I want to know what APIs are available to allow my phone to run bespoke messaging software. Hell - I'd like to see a sample application which amounts to more than a trivial waste of time. I can't help thinking that this technology holds the key to interesting new systems... but that won't happen if Java is just a buzzword denoting a more expensive toy.

  28. Strength of Branding by agentxy · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Branding is a strong advantage when it comes to marketing a product. When basic Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities, and Threats* (SWOT) analysis is done on any well known business, strong brand name recognition is almost always considered an advantage.

    A great example is another Java maker, Starbucks.... Very few people are willing to pay 3 bucks for plain, regular coffee from 7-11 or McDonalds, but may are willing to fork over 3 bucks if the coffee comes in a cup with a big green Starbucks logo.

    Secondly, SUN is trying taking steps to improve its strategic position. Put yourself in SUNs position, your strongest product is JAVA. Appliances all over the world use JAVA, JAVA is taught in most colleges and universities, JAVA is widely used on the Internet, and most importantly (from SUNs point of view) JAVA isn't making SUN the money it could be.

    If I were on SUN's team, my first step would ensure regular people (moms, dads, and non-slashdotters) realize how widespread JAVA is and how "good" it is for computing. Then I would ensure regular people associate JAVA with SUN. Thirdly, (to the dismay of most slashdot readers) I would use my JAVA = SUN association to make money.

    SUN will be criticized for making moves to strengthen its position and SUN will be criticized for NOT making moves to strengthen its position, so ignore the critics, make solid technical and business decisions and do what every business was designed to do, make some money

    Thoughts?

    * Porter, M. Harvard Business School

  29. They don't know what Java means by Nurgled · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I remember when J2ME first became popular and I heard 12 and 13 year olds sitting in the street talking about how their phones support "Java" and how that means that they can play games on it.

    Similar things happened several times, and most of the time it was clear that none of them really knew what Java was or how it related to games or phones, it's just a name for a thing the phone does like "polyphonic ringtones" or "WAP".

    Also, I would have trouble buying "Java Powered" unless the phone's core software was running in a JVM. "Runs trivial little games and applications using Java" isn't the same as "Wouldn't work at all without Java".

  30. Here's one by turgid · · Score: 3, Funny
    Q: What's the difference between Java and C#?

    A: One is secure, reliable, mature, scalable, portable and ubiquitous with an installed base in the billions and a developer community in the millions with thousands of open source code programs written in it. The other is called C#.

    --
    Stick Men
  31. 'Power by Java' warning label by MECC · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I don't know what other people's experiences are with 'java-powered' products, but every complex application I've seen rolled out has problems far bigger than the problems solved. Worse, JAVA has yet to live up to its original claims.
    1) Write once run anywhere. I've yet to see this true of any complex app. It's problably been done, though. I just haven't seen it done.
    2) Compatibility problems. I install one version of the run-time environment for a must-have client app, and the rest break. It can be fixed, but it should never have happened in the first place.
    3) For reasons unclear, large java apps seem to suffer from some kind of fragmented UI design illness. Functions that logically belong together end up in totally different places. Its not true for all, but seems to be more frequent amongst complex java products than similar non-java apps. This, admittedly, is probably due to the fact that I usually am using network analysis and managment tools.
    4) Massive speed inconsistencies. Onde PC will run a client just fine, and different PC will barely run it at all. It can be fixed, but I've got better things to do with my time than fix Sun's problems.

    All in all, what often happens is that I end up using non-java powered solutions, just because they work. I could spend the extra time to fix all the java issues, but it just never seems worth the time and effort.

    --
    "We are all geniuses when we dream"
    - E.M. Cioran
  32. Almost everything by dexter+riley · · Score: 2, Funny

    Tiny cup logos will now be pasted on everything from cell phones to microwaves.
    But not on Space Invaders clones.

    ...and not on nuclear reactors, either!

    7.0 DISCLAIMER OF WARRANTY 7.1 Licensee acknowledges that Licensed Software may contain errors and is not designed, licensed, or intended for use in the design, construction, operation or maintenance of any nuclear facility ("High Risk Activities"). Sun disclaims any express or implied warranty of fitness for such uses. Licensee represents and warrants to Sun that it will not use, distribute or license the Licensed Software for High Risk Activities.

    I like my Java hot, but not hot-as-in-glowing hot!

  33. WTF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "not applicable"? C#?

    If you're moving from Java to C# then you've either:

    1) Thrown out your Big Iron and spent an equivilent amount on a Windows cluster

    2) Hired a bunch of people without checking if they knew the language your system is built on

    3) Got paid off by Microsoft (ie: Uni. of Waterloo)

    4) Decided you wanted something "easy" instead of something "stable"

    C# is not applicable to jack shit compared to Java right now. Most core logic is done using J2EE. If it sucks, then you hired the wrong coders. Don't throw out the baby with the bath water. Java runs on some much bigger iron than C#.

    These people must be developing piddly desktop apps that backend to something pseudo-enterprise. Works great in the lab... try scaling it out to 10,000 workers now. A company I worked for tried that. Told the poor bastards they contracted for that they'd have to buy twice the number of servers and upgrade to 2K Datacenter.

    C# is the language of people who don't know how to fucking program. They like it because it works like VB for the GUI and alows them to do the stupid OO stuff they learned in intro to data structures. They are the ones who catch exceptions with blank handlers in Java at work. They are the ones who use a 3 meg C# app to do the work of a 30 line perl script.

    Not that you can do anything about it, but I would guess that the reason why Java is having problems in your area is because it's becoming more populated with Microsoft nitwit apologists.

    (And I would blame the University of Waterloo for selling out and thinking they're smarter than the rest of the world, allowing all the Canadians to think "If it's good enough for our best CS school, it's good enough for us!")

    1. Re:WTF? by hackrobat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They are the ones who catch exceptions with blank handlers in Java at work.

      You know what, that's why Anders Hejlsberg didn't add checked exceptions to C#--because half the programmers don't handle them and instead just ignore them, because Java won't let you be otherwise. In C#, you ignore all exceptions and they propogate up (without having to declare them in the method signature). That's an improvement over Java, sorry.

      And what are you talking about, C# or .NET? Surely, you mean .NET application don't scale up. C# is just a language.

    2. Re:WTF? by cdemon6 · · Score: 2, Informative

      I don't agree with you. Most Exceptions are likely to appear and can be corrected by the app itself (SocketTimoutException just to name one), and you are forced to catch them (if you don't want to catch all, just catch Exception and you'll get everything). And exceptions like Nullpointers are *still* shown to you if they occur even if they don't have to be catched...

    3. Re:WTF? by Ars-Fartsica · · Score: 2, Insightful
      C# is the language of people who don't know how to fucking program.

      Are you trying to tell me there are more lame-ass resume-engineers claiming C# more than Java? Haha right. I think the tinfoil is coming off of your hat.

    4. Re:WTF? by Full+Meat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Insightful? I object to the rating more than this ignorant troll!

      1)Thrown out your Big Iron and spent an equivilent amount on a Windows cluster

      Or maybe your company is one of the thousands that have battalions of MCSEs and volume licensing agreements with MS, so a Windows platform decision happens to make more sense.

      I like the auto shop mentality though.

      2) Hired a bunch of people without checking if they knew the language your system is built on

      Huh?

      3) Got paid off by Microsoft (ie: Uni. of Waterloo)

      No, Lone Gunman-boy, it's usually the other way around; it'll cost you a couple grand to lay down your first line of .NET code. The MS camp isn't the one with free IDEs, open source OS and app servers, and free databases.

      4) something "easy" instead of something "stable"

      Any examples or metrics, or are you just pulling that out of your ass? I have many issues with the .NET Framework, but stability is not among them.

      C# is the language of people who don't know how to fucking program. They like it because it works like VB for the GUI

      You're really shooting your argument in the foot here. C# is such a direct ripoff of Java that one can change a few package and class names in Java source and compile it in .NET. Given this, you cannot throw shit at the C# language without getting a lot of it on Java.

      alows them to do the stupid OO stuff they learned

      Wow, you're totally showing your ass here. You're a Java/J2EE fanboy, but OO is "stupid" introductory stuff? Anybody see the Chappelle's Show sketch about Clayton Bigsby, the blind white supremacist who, unbeknownst to himself, is black?

      They are the ones who use a 3 meg C# app to do the work of a 30 line perl script.

      Ah, you're a perl man. I understand now why you eschew OO. Whenever perl guys throw down the "how many lines" thing, I think of that scene in the movie "Amadeus" when Emperor Joseph II tells Mozart that "There are too many notes." Shit, if I was half the developer you are, I would give my PM my estimates in number of lines, not number of hours. Why stop there? Code readability/maintainability and object-oriented archtecture have no place in enterprise software solutions, which explains why perl is sweeping the nation as the #1 language of choice for large enterprise apps.

      A Sun Certified Developer

  34. J2ME by psyconaut · · Score: 2, Informative

    "J2ME (Java 2 Media Edition)"

    No, Java 2 Micro Edition.

    -psy

  35. Just had to look this one up... by Pippity · · Score: 2, Interesting
    ...and lo and behold, it wasn't made up!

    This site has decent pictures. Big Java logo near the cockpit, and a big Sun logo on the tail. Before and after. Ouch!

  36. Way to screw yourselves over by SuperKendall · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Voting to oust Java is the surest way to become the MCDonalds workers of the IT industry - if you can even find the jobs.

    I am a little sad to see great teaching languages like Scheme fall to the wayside though. I think there is great value in teaching people Scheme first instead of Java or C# to start with.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  37. I go where the jobs are! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Heheh....look at all the job stats and you'll see Java burying every other language out there in terms of actual demand. I go where the money is, and Java is it - not c-sharp, not php, not whatever.

    You guys just keep on burying your head in the sand, since Java right now is probably the most widely deployed language in IT history, what with the new cars (BMWs), smartcards, SIM cards, mobilke cellphones, server apps, desktop apps runniung Java.

    I KNOW i'll have a job 5-10 years from now doing Java when you guys are trying to learn the next new language from Microsoft or whomever.

  38. A long time ago .. by guacamole · · Score: 2, Interesting

    .. in a gallaxy far away there exited a company called Netscape. In addition to their famous web browser, they made various server products (the web server, application server, directory server, etc) for the enterpise. Eventually, their marketing droids have mis-managed the Netscape brand name (and the company web site) to the point where they had to rename their server division and all their server products into "iPlanet". Then they got transferred to Sun, and Sun decided to use the "Sun ONE" brand name for all of this ex-netscape stuff. Now it looks like they are willing to sacrifice this perfectly fine brand name and to confuse their customers even further by renaming their SunONE product line into SunJAVA product line. At this point this is getting really silly now that you suddenly have products like "SunJAVA Directory server" which have little to do with the Java language other than their terrible admin tools are written in Java (we have decided to dump the SunONE DS in favor of OpenLDAP becaususe of SunONE's terrible Java-based admin interface and the lack of proper documentation for CLI tools even though it comes free with Solaris). In the past they also had to rename their OS (SunOS -> Solaris), to rename their compiler suite MULTIPLE time, and to change the versioning scheme for Solaris and Java. Way to go Sun! I am sure they'll rename this whole SunJAVA product line again in a couple of years. When a company feels so insecure about its brands and renames its products so often, many people including me generally see it as a sign of weakness, and not as an improvement.

  39. You missed my point. by mosel-saar-ruwer · · Score: 2, Informative
    Do you REALLY think that the point of 64 bit machines is having bigger integers?

    The point is not that the "integers" are a different size on a 64-bit machine.

    The point is that the counters that you use to index Java arrays are limited to 32-bits worth of [albeit relative] addresses, rather than the full 64-bit addresses of the underlying hardware and its operating system.

    And yes, there are plenty of things that need to cross the 2 ^ 32 = 4 "Giga" barrier. Such as, for instance, high quality MPEGs of Gone With the Wind or Titanic.