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Sony's "iPod killer" Fails to Draw Blood
Mr_Silver writes "Walter Mossberg (of WSJ fame) managed to review the new Sony NW-HD1 and was distinctly unimpressed. The upsides: it's smaller, lighter and has a battery life of 20 hours. The downsides: goodbye MP3 - hello ATRAC3, slow upload (and converting) times and the confusing user interface on the walkman, PC software and the music store. When will someone pass Sony the cluestick?"
I am curious why some of the other mp3 players out there comparable in storage and size to the ipod achieve so much more battery life?
Ideas?
Sony will continue to compete despite the market's lack of adoption. They're still working on the minidisc format even when it's poorly accepted in the American market and most people prefer solid state or hard drive players. Not just that but a lot of people are getting fed up with Sony's recent lack of quality since they shifted a huge amount of their production to China. The PS2's disc read error is one such error and it's put me off from purchasing the PSP until at least a year after it comes out just to be sure there aren't any similar issues there. I wouldn't trust Sony's products farther than I could throw them.
Who sits in the company and makes the decisions about this product? Could they possibly hold one of these in their hands, use it on a day to day basis, and say its an ipod killer? Quit listening to the marketing execs for christ sake!
Its interesting. Usually, after a few years, a computer product is considered obsolete. iPod seems to be one of the few exceptions to this rule. Its dominated the MP3 player market for ages now. I wonder how many years it has left to captivate the market.
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From the article:
For my test, I used a very modest collection of 431 standard MP3 files. SonicStage 2 refused to transfer 15 of the files, posting a nonsensical error message. After that, it took an agonizingly long two hours and 13 minutes to transfer the remaining 416 tracks to the Walkman. By contrast, Apple's iTunes software transferred all 431 songs to an iPod in about four minutes.
What happens for the rest of us who have a lot more than 431 mp3s? Do we leave our computer running for a week just converting the files? Does anyone know if Sony has ripping software so that we could convert our cds into their format?
I think I'll pass. I love my iPod.
Dog for sale: eats anything and is fond of children
There is nothing revolutionary with the hardware (however i'm sure i'll buy one to replace my MZ-R700), their software sucks.
The SonicStage reached the version 2.1 and it still gives you random Access Violation at error while importing media into your library. Even a malformed ID3 tag can kill it. And it does NOT run on Windows 2003 Server only Professional. This is a big drawback because I will NOT install an XP Prof just to feed my player or MD. And they do not have Linux support either...
When they support other formats than ATRAC3 and they manage to write a much more bugfree softwer, then we can compare to iPods.
And another drawback: it doesn't have any kind of remote like the MD's have.
If Yoda so strong in Force is, why words in right order he cannot put?
Seriously, did anyone not see this coming? ATRAC3, while technically competent, is still a Sony-proprietary scheme. How many other manufacturers even bothered to license it? Three?
I got into an argument with someone the other day about this very unit. This person actually believed that Sony actually "gets it" WRT consumer gear. He honestly thought that Sony had some chance in hell of putting a dent in the iPod's dominance with this piece of shit. The truly surreal/funny part was that this argument actually took place in an Apple store.
Where the value of X-Mailer: is the true measure of a man...
sony is a media company too.. why would they release a player that could potentially cut into their music biz revenue? At least that what I believe drove the bizness decision to use a DRMed format.
Sony R&D almost certainly would not have missed the general populace if it was just Sony in the picture. Sony's problems aren't their researchers or engineers who, IME, are some of the best - it's the influence Sony Entertainment (which deals with the media side of things- films, music, games etc) on the design decisions that causes all the problems. I have no doubt whatsoever that, left to themselves, Sony's designers would have produced something that could handle mp3, several other formats and given the ipod some real competition.
:/
But with the entertainment division and their lawyers jumping up and down about restricting the consumer's choice, the need for DRM and so on, they keep removing features, restricting things...
I really, really wish Sony would ditch SE, but they aren't likely to
I know that portable cd players a while back used to optimize for battery life rather than sound quality. To that end they would under bias transistors and generally make choices to use too little electricity.
I understand that the Ipod is supposed to sound pretty good, so maybe they have chosen not to do that sort of thing.
I don't consider its use of ATRAC3 internally inherently a problem. If it allows me to seamlessly dump files from my computer onto the player, it doesn't really matter how they're represented in the device itself, since I only care that it plays the music.
HOWEVER, converting from one lossy format to another will cause artifacts (which I don't believe the article mentioned). And just as bad, it had better happen zippy-quick, at least on a relatively new computer. If the limiting factor is the speed of my CPU, then I don't want it.
And here's what I don't get. They're converting it to a format which is DRM'ed, but because they're converting it from MP3s you can't tell who owns it in the first place. That is, they can limit the distribution, but limit it to who? They can't tell if you own it or not.
Presumably the goal is to say, "You can use your MP3s, but they're slower to download. You'd rather get ATRACs from our spiffy music store!"
That could happen, I suppose. If the device is substantially cheaper than an iPod, then people will buy it on the shelves, and it's not clear until they get home that it's not compatible with the #1 music store. Or the #2 music store.
So it's a tactically bold maneuver, and it might work. Online music stores still account for a small percentage of music sales. Most people still buy CDs, with which this thing is compatible (albeit slowly). I'm not sure how much people would miss being able to buy stuff from iTunes Music Store and Napster and whatever Microsoft's version is going to be.
In the end, there's a lot said for being able to hit a lower price point for the same number of megs. Microsoft makes a huge living off the fact that people would rather buy a Dell/HP/etc. for a few hundred bucks less than the equivalent Macintosh, even if many people would prefer the Mac. (Not a religious war here, just pointing out that many people never look past the price tag.)
But this time, Apple already owns big market share, and compatibility with it may be the biggest problem for Sony here. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.
Because this *really* was suppose to be the iPod killer. Now that it doesn't look this way, that's good *news* for Apple. And unless these other companies start putting up more of fight, it looks like Microsoft will be the last company that has a chance of challenging Apple's dominance. They're rumored to be releasing their own online music store next month.
Lots of things can change in a few years, but I never would have thought I'd be using "monopoly" to describe Apple.
Little Bricklets
Sony's done some great consumer electronics stuff, but they've just been so damn stupid when it comes to anything having to do with computers.
They can't resist making everything proprietary, and they can't shake the Not-Invented-Here disease that used to plague Apple.
You know they could make a killer device - but two years late they delivery that POS. I'm sure they'll get some mileage off their reputation amongst non-geeks and the Walkman name, but what a dissapointment...
for it's own good. They seem to think that just because they are so huge that they will be able enter into an already well established market with a product that is not that innovative. if you want to make money you either a) start a whole new makret, like they did with the original walkman(portable music outside a car now a reality) or b) enter into a market with a bold new idea, like they did with playstation(cd based 3d gaming)
Though this seems to be a theme with a lot of Japanese companies, they end up trying to do everything, when they should only focus on a few core markets. In Japan, Mitsubishi manufactures a ton of things, from escalotors to trains to LCDs to automobiles. The red tape must be enormous. It probably ends up hurting them in the long run because it's easier to sweep a few small losses under the rug if you are such a huge company. But they will come back to bite you, just look at what is happening with Mitsubishi motors....
Actually, it sounds more like one of these
If you rip your CD's and convert the resulting files to ATRAC3+ files you get better sounding files as compared to MP3's at the same bitrate. Most people who are the real targets for this player actually have cd's and will take the time to rip their library. MP3 conversion is just to appease those with Mp3 only music files. It is an afterthought not a main feature. You are not the target market. I am not the target market.
Funny thing about perspective though, last time I looked though more Atrac3* players were in the market place in North America, Europe and Japan than there were iPods sold the whole world over. At least three companies besides Sony are producing compatible players. Hell there were more MiniDisc's containing complete albums (in Atrac*) than their were individual files downloaded from Apple's music store. Sorry but this product appeals to people who bought into those devices and serves as an upgrade to them.
Tis a long battle and Sony has the staying power to keep slugging it out.
Some things better, other things worse. The Rio Karma is probably the closest competitor, but for its relatively iffy hard drive quality.
You know what, though? There's something people forget about when they go from the computer hardware section to the electronics section of the store: warranties. Every single hard drive-based MP3 player on the market that I looked at while making my purchase choice gives you a measly ninety days. Who in the holy hell buys a hard drive with a ninety day warranty? Why is this suddenly okay? Because it's inside a gadget with a familiar corporate logo on it? If Maxtor, Seagate, Hitachi et al tried to slap a ninety day warranty on one of their drives, they would be laughed out of the building.
Apple gives its iPods a one year limited warranty, with the option to extend to 2 years for $60. It also has iTunes, the music store, rechargeability through a FireWire or USB port (while playing your music at the same time), a fantastic interface and control scheme, multiple format support, and a few other odds and ends. Like, if someone on my network has iTunes and some music in their library, I can automatically stream it, and check out their playlists, most played songs, etc.. You can copy music from iTunes to your computer with free, third-party software, or replace iTunes altogether. Then there's the wireless speakers. I chose an iPod not because it's hip, but because it's the most complete and most customer-friendly package I could find. This is why you pay more money for one.
I would recommend converting all your CD WAVs into FLAC. That way you still get to keep the same CD-quality audio (lossless compression) and use up less disk space.
WinAmp supports FLAC. Obviously, FLAC is also supported under Linux.
The problem is, converting from one lossy compression format to another equals BIG loss in quality. Perceptual encoding, which both ATRAC and MP3 use, depends on a clean incoming signal. The compression, when played back, introduces artifacts that show up as harmonic distortion. When you use another perceptual encoder to compress THAT file, the harmonic distortion is re-encoded and amplified. It ends up sounding anywhere from annoyingly bad to unlistenable.
I think Sony, as a mega-meda-electronics conglomerate, wants to protect it's music business, so uses it's own propriatary format to make sure it can do DRM or whatever other controls it wants.
My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.
3 cheers fo you. (My sentiments exactly)
I bought a car deck (MP3, with hard drive, and rip ability MEX-1HD I think) a few years back. Found out quickly that the deck would play MP3, rip audio CD's to it's ahrd drive, but would under NO CIRCUMSTANCES allow me to move my mp3 CD's into it's hard drive.
3 days later, after tech support let me know it's a design fetaure to dissalow this kind of useful functionality. I removed the drive, and upgraded a laptop with it. (full format) Sony's idea of fair use had made it worthless to me.
Hey Sony! I don't buy your products anymore cause of that one. None of them. I even refuse to resell Sony to my customers. Great job there guys....
Yes, this is going to start a flamewar on the same scale as WWII... But the iPod has been beat by several devices although Apple, and their loyal followers (or those who just want to be "in") don't know it.
iRiver has the iHP (now called the H series) which is around the same price for the same storage, has better sound quality, better battery life than the G4 iPods, recording and optical capabilities, LCD remote and connects via USB making it accessible to more machines. It also has a radio.
Creative has the whole line of Zens with has sound quality to rival the iRiver (they're both good, just read the reviews they do beat the iPod), great battery life and huge storage for the money. They're cheap, but they're also bigger but that's fine for many people.
You can argue they may not be as sexy or easy to use, but that's mostly opinion. And if you give either the iRiver or Creative players a few moments of your time you won't have any trouble using them.
Yes, they killed the iPod where it counts, but the iPod is stylish and sexy, and that's more important to people than sound quality, battery life and actual audio features. Why? Beats me, but it is.
(awaits totally unjustified and brutal beating by the mods)
Presently here, but not there.
The best part about the iRiver is that they (intelligently) decided it should use usb-mass storage to get stuff on and off the thing. Which makes it like a glorified USB memory stick which can additionally play many types of audio formats.
Unfortuantely, you can't use the thing while it's docked... so the Karma wins in that respect (using it as a stereo system component). But it's got SPDIF optical in and out, and it can record to MP3 from the optical in; as far as I know, nobody has that feature.
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
In the European Union you get two years of warrenty by (consumer) law. So that you don't have to choose what do buy on 90-days versus 1-year.
I was this close to buying a top of the line Clie a year ago, but I held off when I learned that Sony had intentionally crippled the mini-PCMCIA socket on the device so that it couldn't be used for compact flash cards, which would have been an obvious application for it.
Many digital photographers such as myself have large capacity inexpensive compact flash cards, and refuse to purchase stupid memory sticks which have less storage capacity for the same money.
This was such a glaringly obvious example of Sony regarding their own interests much more than the interests of their customers, and that ultimately made me not buy the otherwise fine product. (I'll probably buy a phone-PIM-PDA-gps-mp3 thing in a year or two anyways)
The pattern of Sony's schizophrenic boardroom screwing up their own products is becoming more and more obvious. Their DVD players initially didn't play home-burned discs, and I still haven't seen a Sony DVD player supporting SVCD, MPEG4 or MP3 content.
Their camcorders and digital video recorders have hyper-sensitive macrovision detection on their video inputs, and sometimes they "detect" macrovision falsely and accordingly refuse to record from a legit source.
The worst part is this ATRAC3 nonsense. Apple is showing the way by permitting the unprotected, popular what-the-people-want mp3 format to coexist with the house DRM brand. That's respecting their users and having business smarts.
If Sony tried the same, and perhaps included mp3 playback capability on all their products alongside ATRAC[3], people would have a choice.
For all I know, ATRAC3 is a better format, but I refuse to be forced to convert it to another lossy format in order to have the "privilege" of listening to it on a portable device. They must be out of their minds.
It doesn't have to be this way. Take Phillips. They have a music catalog (substantially smaller than Sony, granted), but they have repeatedly shown themselves as acting in the interest of people, such as when they refused Audio CD logo licensing to the crippled DRM-infested discs they sell in stores these days. Philips
Firewire IS a failure as a general computer interface standard. It ships on what, 10% of all computers?
Out of the (6) boxes in my personal office...
Four of them support firewire. The two that don't are older motherboards from 1999 and 2001 (or thereabouts).
Almost every x86 laptop that I've looked at has FireWire. Sony's laptops have had firewire for quite a while (ever since DVD creation and DV hit the market).
People in the x86 world are just more familiar with USB 2.0 when it comes to external devices. DV cameras are a big driver in the home market.
Wolde you bothe eate your cake, and have your cake?