Slashdot Mirror
The Saga of Katie.com
digitalcaffeine writes "The gist of the story is that Katie Tarbox became a victim of an online sexual predator when she was 13. She wrote a book about it in 2000 and Penguin Putnam made the title of the book 'Katie.Com', which unfortunately was a domain name owned by Katie Jones since 1996. Now Tarbox's lawyer is demanding that Jones turn over the domain name.
Penguin refuses to apologize, saying that it would be a violation of their free speech to re-title the book and that Jones never trademarked katie.com, so they can do what they want with the words."
You're thinking of copyright. Trademarks need to be registered.
RTFA. Penguin is a multinational corporation and Katie Jones is from the UK.
Please send your complaints to Katiet.com, which is the web site of the Penguin book that is causing all this fuss.
If the author gets flooded with mail about her predatory behavior, something might happen.
The autor's address is katie@katiet.com
Penguin couldn't care less.
"Live Free or Die." Don't like it? Then keep out of the USA
To answer some questions that I've received today, firstly as far as I know the rather aggressive lawyer who contacted me yesterday is not part of Penguin Puttnam but is working with Katie Tarbox on future projects and trying to gain control of my domain name for these projects. She informed me that things would 'only get worse' for me from here if I didn't do something about it - i.e. give it to them.
Finally, a point about this domain name. When this book launched I had no choice but to take down the content I previously had published on the front page because of the traffic coming to the site and having no choice but to remove it if I didn't want my professional and personal reputation damaged by it. I still use it, although I don't link from the front page of course, and one day I sincerely hope I'll be able to move my content back up where it belongs.
Cheers,
Erick
http://www.busyweather.com/
because her best chance of winning this in court (bearing in mind that there has only been one previous legal precedent and the legality is still a little muddy) is to prove that she is not keeping ownership of the domain to "cash in on" or deliberately adversely affect the book or the publishers' reputation.
"The dew has clearly fallen with a particularly sickening thud this morning"
No, you pretty much have it right. This story has been around for a while and very little has changed. You can google for older stories if you like.
Katie J. is in a no-win situation. If she offers to sell the domain or sue for damages, she'll be accused of trying to profit off of Penguin's book, and would likely lose the domain in a trademark dispute to WIPO.
But Penguin's use of katie.com is directly causing her harm, because she effectively can't use it for its intended purpose because of all the traffic it is getting. And even if she got Penguin to change future editions, the damage is already done -- katie.com is effectively useless for anything that is not associated with the book. The only way to remedy this is to sue for damaged caused by Penguin's behavior -- which, as we already discussed, she can't really do.
This is why I'm not a lawyer. It seems like they're all schmucks.
if you would like to let penguin know what you think of their strongarm tactics, you might find the following information useful:
c o.ukn guin.co.uk
Penguin Books Ltd, Pearson Customer Operations
Edinburgh Gate, Harlow, Essex, CM20 2JE
Fax: 0870 850 1115
www.penguin.co.uk
customer.service@penguin.co.uk
orders@penguin.
export@penguin.co.uk
internationalsales@pe
Penguin Group (USA)
375 Hudson Street, New York, NY 10014
www.penguinputnam.com
Penguin Group (Australia)
250 Camberwell Road, Camberwell, VIC 3124
Australia
Tel: 61-3-9871-2400
Fax: 61-3-9870-6086
www.penguin.com.au
Penguin Group (Canada)
10 Alcorn Ave., Suite 300, Toronto, Ontario, M4V 3B2 Canada
Tel: (416) 925-2249
Fax: (416) 925-0068
www.penguin.ca
Penguin India
11 Community Centre, Panchsheel Park, New Delhi 110 017, India
Tel: 91-11-2649-4401
Fax: 91-11-2649-4402
www.penguinbooksindia.com
Penguin Ireland
25 St Stephen's Green, Dublin 2, Ireland
Tel: 00-353-1-661-7695
Fax: 00-353-1-661-7696
Email: info@penguin.ie
www.penguin.ie
Penguin Group (New Zealand)
Private Bag 102-902, North Shore Mail Centre, Auckland 1310
Albany, Auckland, New Zealand
Tel: 64-9-415-4700
Fax: 64-9-415-4703
www.penguin.co.nz
Penguin South Africa
24 Sturdee Avenue, Rosebank, 2169, South Africa
Tel: 27-11-327-3550
Fax: 27-11-327-6574
A pizza of radius z and thickness a has a volume of pi z z a
You didn't read the article.
They did look it up first, they just went ahead not caring that they were about to vaporize someone else's server.
no one's going to go to "katie.com"
As the article states, the woman who owns katie.com receives a LOT of traffic and email from people who think her site is affiliated with the book. She even gets e-mail from pedophiles.
"Live Free or Die." Don't like it? Then keep out of the USA
Other new sources for this story: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4 048410,00.html
http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/07/27/katie/
http://www.boingboing.net/2004/07/30/penguin_putna ms_rack.html
Trademarks don't necessarily need to be registered. See http://www.bitlaw.com/trademark/common.html for a brief summary of common law trademark rights, but also do a google search http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q= common+law+trademark+and+internet&btnG=Search
What you'll find is that trademark law is actually a lot more complex--and often contradictory--than you think.
When the book was written, the domain "katie.com" was not registered. Therefore anybody was/is allowed to use the words "Katie.com" as the title of a book. (This is confirmed bt the fact that the owner of the domain never did anything against the publishers of the book.)
WTF? katie.com WAS registered at the time the book was written. The it has been registered since 1996, the book came out in 2000. Grab a calculator and do the math.
How does a single women failing to embark on a lawsuit against a multinational publisher confirm that a domain name was not registered when the book came out?
Finkployd
OK, everyone seems a little confused about this - like, why now when the book was published in 2000?
For those that don't RTFA:
- In 2000, this book came out, and Katie Jones asked Dutton (subsidiary of Penguin) to change the title, as she had the domain name and they were hijacking it; as a result of the book title, KJ was receiving emails both detailing peoples abuse at the hands of paedophiles, as well as abusive emails from paedophiles themselves. See here and here. KJ took loads of stuff (including pictures of herself and family) off the site as a result - and Penguin ignored the request. I can't find the original slashdot article, although I'm sure there must have been one.
- Now, four years later, Jones gets a nasty letter, and this slashdot story is posted. This is caused by KT doing some thing about teaching kids about online safety (whether for money or altruism I don't know) - and them calling it Katie.com. Source.
- It seems the lawyer, one Parry Aftab, has a website.
There's a good summary (almost as good as this one) here, and suprisingly, on CNN.
the poster meant not registered as a trademark
Direct from Katie.com:
To answer some questions that I've received today, firstly as far as I know the rather aggressive lawyer who contacted me yesterday is not part of Penguin Puttnam but is working with Katie Tarbox on future projects and trying to gain control of my domain name for these projects. She informed me that things would 'only get worse' for me from here if I didn't do something about it - i.e. give it to them.
The "only get worse" part is enough to qualify it as a demand in my book.
katie.com was registered in the DNS system in 1996, not at the copyright office. Huge difference. Still, I'm pulling 100% for the original owner of the website.
At this point the best hope for justice is a publicity backlash. Penguin is already well on their way to getting more negative publicity than they can stomach over this screw-up.
We should all write (preferably in dead-tree form) to Penguin, and to their corporate masters, Pearson.
Be polite but be firm. Ask specific questions and ask specifically for a reply (this will keep the letter alive and consuming resources in the bureaucracy much longer). Make it clear that this arrogant action, if uncorrected, will negatively affect your purchases and recommendations in the future.
Penguin:
Penguin Group (USA) Inc.
375 Hudson Street
New York, NY 10014
Pearson:
Pearson Headquarters
3 Burlington Gardens
London W1X 1LE, United Kingdom
Phone: +44-20-7411-2000
Fax: +44-20-7411-2390
Or, if you're in the US and just feel like ranting, try Penguin Customer Service: (800) 631-8571
This Like That - fun with words!
1) Go to Amazon.com and vote YES on all the negatives reviews where it askes "Did you find this review helpful".
2) Write your own negative review.
3) Write katie@katiet.com and tell her she should quit victimizing someone else on the internet. The cycle of abuse must stop!
Why are there only 19 people folding@home for slashdot?
--J
Actually, the only domain name left is www.clownpenis.fart.
Really, there is no other name left.
A lot of people seem to have trademarks, copyrights, and patents confused. You seem to be among them. I'm no expert, but I will attempt to explain away your confusion.
Copyright is for creative works.
Trademark is for recognizable "marks" (symbols or brand names or slogans)
Patent is for devices and inventions.
The one you are looking for is trademark.
I used to bulls-eye womp-rats in my pants
Katie.com at amazon.com.
"If anyone needs me, I'm in the angry dome."
You do have legal copyright on anything you create, without having to file it with the copyright office. If proof can be found that you published it beforehand (and webpublishing counts) then you own legal copyright to the name (not necessarily trademark, though). However, this still prevents me from writing a book called "slashdot.org" about a bottlecap collection (or whatever) and suing for millions.
Technically, although copyright may not protect names per se, the total website as a whole, which includes the name "katie.com" falls under a published/created body of work in text, and is copyrightable. If a book is copyrightten, regardless of trademarking the title, the title is copywritten along with the content therein. Katie Jones clearly has legal precendent to utterly smear Penguin Putnam into the ground for using her name, but mercifully she just wants the whole mess to go away. I'm (a) putting great hesitation before buying any Penguin Putnam book now because of their overboldness upon the innocent (an ironic charge indeed) and (b) glad I am not Putnam who should have otherwise backed off long before they lost so much business.
What next, are they going to sue Linux for having a penguin logo? Who came first, I wonder?
thehomeland(.org)
As a friend of Katie Jones and the guy who hosts the katie.com domain...... Wow, you Slashdotters are an amazing bunch. No other site that has carried the story has generated a response as big the one from Slashdot. I thought my server had died earlier today, the amount of traffic it recieved was so large, and all from Slashdot. Thank you for taking an interest in this issue.
According to Katie Jones, it is not Penguin but Katie T.'s lawyer who is bullying her to give up katie.com.
Mr Nissan registered the site http://www.nissan.com/ for his computer business. Nissan Motors came along later, and put up enough of a legal struggle, that Mr. Nissan had to change his website, so that it cannot be used for commerical purposes, namely, Mr. Nissan's computer shop. The whole story is here --> http://www.ncchelp.org/The_Story/the_story.htm/
I found the "Any" key.
I call BULLSHIT! Society doesn't make fucking victims - stupidity does. I had a pretty shitty home life growing up, in the poorest of neighborhoods, broken home, all that shit - I didn't end up like the majority of my peers (in jail, broke, living off handouts from honest taxpayers) because I realized at an early age that I was responsible for my own actions, and the consequences thereof. I am sick and tired of people giving kids a green light to fuck up because they are young - were you that stupid as a teen?
No control or knowledge my ass - it's HER LAWYER not the publisher pursuing this.
While I agree that it is not right to wish further ills on the author over this, it is not right to support her and her publishers either. A brief look at katiet.com shows that her rough childhood has likely made her a quite well off adult, and the argument that she has no control over the decisions of her publisher are utter bullshit - they need her to be able to promote the damn book, so she has pull. Futher, just because something bad happened to you in the past, being a thief still makes you a thief and if her lawyer (working on her behalf, that she has the ability to hire and fire) succeeds, Katie Tarbow will be exactly that, a thief.
Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence in society - M. Twain
You can neither trademark nor copyright book titles. Books commonly come out with identical or nearly-identical titles. For example there is no legal conflict involved in Heinlein not being the only author to title a book Glory Road. And if you look at, for instance, the New York or London Review of Books you'll see books commonly coming out on current and historical subjects with titles completely or nearly identical - again, no legal action ensues. Some of these books come out on Penguin, so they know the law here.
To the extent that you can trademark anything, trademark is based in common law and derives from first use in commerce - and only applies to its use in commerce within the catagory of goods or services it's in (IANAL but I used to be the bureaucrat in charge of trademarks for a mid-sized state). So if you could trademark "katie.com" for the sale of books and publications (and you most certainly can't, unless it's the publisher's imprint rather than a book title), and you argue that the katie.com Web site is in that category, by common law right of first use kitie.com wins and you're up the creek without a paddle.
You also can't take a term already in use in an area and make it your trademark in that area - so you can't just start taking book titles or Web site addresses that aren't yours (and probably aren't trademarkable in themselves) and filing trademarks for books or publication services or whatever based on your appropriating them for your own publishers imprint - you can't call a publishing house "King James Bible" and then demand that all the bible publishers retitle their output.
What arses! The lawyer making these threats should be disbarred.
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
And Katie T's lawyer is Parry Aftab, Esq. Her site is aftab.com
riding round the world on an old motorcycle
God I'm tired of this.. Katie T is nothing but a greedy selfimportant bitch.
She was NOT raped. She did go and meet a sleezy guy who turned out to be a lot older than she expected... But she did this when she was 17.. not 13 as all the press material implies. Additionally, she wasn't raped at all... Her mom and coach walked in on them while they were kissing and feeling each other up.
He was eventually charged with crossing state lines with the intention of having sex with a minor.. he was also charged with some bogus CDA seducing a minor over the internet charge. The CDA was overturned later that year.
The only victim here is katie.com
This is an excerpt from her book. http://www.katiet.com/exerpts.htm. Here's a description of her town:
I was in the eighth grade, and for the first time I was really obsessed with my appearance, my status, with fitting in. This is understandable, if you consider that I was growing up in America, and in New Canaan, Connecticut. New Canaan is the richest town in the richest state in the country. The moms all drive Suburbans and the dads all take the train to the city. And by the time they are ten years old, the kids in New Canaan know that the highest-grade BMW is not as nice as the best Mercedes. They know that you should never be seen cutting your own lawn, and that embossed stationery is far superior to lithographed.
Oy! This all took place when she was 14. She *wrote the book* when she was 17, and it was published when she was 18. Just to clear that up.
I've gotten the impression that selling, attempting to sell, or even expressing anything other than "The domain is not for sale" in response to an offer would have the potential to seriously hurt any legal case or WIPO case she might be involved in.
On the other hand, if she wanted to she *might* be able to get away with running her own porn site at that address - as long as she owned it, she'd probably be fine. Of course her lawyer might have a different take on it, she might have no interest in or be opposed to running a porn site, and the fact that she's in the UK might have an effect (what are UK porn laws like?).
fencepost
just a little off
While the link in the parent post is getting a lot of moderation done, there are pleny more at Amazon.com that people need to write reviews for, and mod up:
US: Amazon.com, Amazon.com
CA: Amazon.ca, Amazon.ca, Amazon.ca, Amazon.ca
UK: Amazon.co.uk, Amazon.co.uk, Amazon.co.uk, Amazon.co.uk, Amazon.co.uk, Amazon.co.uk, Amazon.co.uk
He was charged with the federal crime of crossing state lines for get it on with a minor.. and the CDA (which was overturned as all slashdotters know)..
... cept he was from California where the age of consent is 18. (that law is setup so if it's legal source and dest state then it's okay)
He went to jail for 18months and has been barred from continuing his job selling securities.
The federal crossing-state-lines-to-get-it-on-with-a-minor charge wouldn't have even held