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Racial Issues Alleged In GTA San Andreas, Other Games
Thanks to the New York Times (free reg. req.) for its article exploring possible racial stereotyping inherent in many videogames. The article alleges: "Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas... underscores what some critics consider a disturbing trend: popular video games that play on racial stereotypes, including images of black youths committing and reveling in violent street crime." Partially, though not wholly related to a recently discussed article on 'street' videogames, it's also argued: "The issue, critics say, is not that the games' representation of racial and ethnic minorities is as blatantly threatening as the sort found at hate sites on the Web, where players are asked to gun down virtual black or Jewish characters. Rather, the racial and ethnic depictions and story lines are more subtle, and therefore, some say, more insidious."
So we're supposed to ignore the last 4 GTA titles just because the one coming up will have a black character to represent the player?
Only white people can commit violence in video games now? And here I thought people were complaining because there weren't enough minorities in video games, now you can't put them into video games without someone complaining about the way they're portrayed (come on, this isn't like that Duke3D-engine game from a few years ago featuring an Asian protagonist, but then no one complained about the depiction of white people in Redneck Rampage, either).
-PainKilleR-[CE]
Let's ban ghettos! In there you will find all these stereotypes walking around where anyone can see them! Even little children. Save the little children!
Today's Slate featured piece was by a black woman lawyer called Racist Like Me...it raises some interesting points about how the accusation of racism tends to be a conversation- (and thought-) stopper, and how as a culture we should probably be more engaged in this kind of discussion.
SO YOU'RE GOING TO DIE: The Comic for Dealing with Death
Don't these people at DMA know that LA gangs of the early nineties were uniformly white?
Oh. Never mind.
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"
Always busy bitching about crap and not taking any action. In fact, I'm going to write a game where you're white and all you can do it bitch about stuff. Someone mugs you? You can start a commitee and bitch about it with other whities. Someone kicks your dog? You can start a commitee and bitch about it with other whities. Someone nuked your backyard with an old russian ICBM? You can start a commitee and bitch about it with other whities.
Ps, I'm white; Seth
"he prominence of black characters in those story lines is all the more striking because of the narrow range of video games in which blacks have been present, if present at all, over the years. A 2001 study by Children Now, for example, found that of 1,500 video-game characters surveyed, 288 were African-American males - and 83 percent of those were represented as athletes."
e s/2001/
I was curious - how many of the 1500 were hedgehogs? Racoons? Demon imps?
I checked the report this figure was lifted from:
http://www.childrennow.org/media/video-gam
"White characters were the majority in the video game population (56%)" - thats as opposed to 19% being african-american males (see above). That's compared to the real US population which is 80% white and roughly 7% african-american males (see http://www.census.gov/statab/www/poprace.html) - even ignoring for a moment that many games originate in Japan where the racial mix is even more skewed.
The accusations of stereotyping and the narrow range of games including such characters ring true, but the "if present at all" remark is completely unsupported by the figures - if anything african-american males are quite over-represented in games. Although not to the extent of space aliens, who make up less than 1% of the real population.
Living in the UK, I'd ask - where are the asian characters? (apart from japanese/chinese). Our population is about 5% from the indian subcontinent, but I can't recall ever playing a game with indian or pakistani characters.
However, I would also like to point something else out. GTA is about gangs and street violence. The reality is that, while people like those complaining don't like to talk about it, there are many gangs composed of specific races. Italian mafia, black gangstas, Latino, Irish, gangs composed just generally of white people(ie. white-supremacist groups), and as the OP pointed out, white rednecks.
Rockstar didn't create the current situation. In fact, that they are making video-games that reflect a little bit of reality can only bring attention to the issue, which can only be good.
Do people like the writer of the article want us all to put our fingers in our ears and close our eyes?
Fucking idiots. Why don't people put pressure on these groups who are actually committing violence? I guess that would make too much sense.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
Schindlers List. =D
WANNAWIKI Wannawiki WannaWiki WANNAWIKI!
They've been making hockey games for years. I haven't heard a black person complain about that yet.
What we need is federal affirmative action programs for criminal street gangs. If we can't bust them for illegal weapons or dope, we can smother them with greedy lawyers.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
This definitely sounds like racism to me. A white, Italian stereotype can go around gunning down anyone he wants, but as soon as he has to kill members of a Haitian gang, it's racist. But make the protagonist black, and all of a sudden it's reinforcing stereotypes and represents racism against African-Americans? Come on! There's a United Negro College Fund. If there were a United Caucasian College Fund, these same people would be crying racist. Yes, it is racist. It's racist that there is such a dichotomy - what's acceptable for one race isn't acceptable for another, and vice versa. This is just further evidence of the absence of racial equality in our society. The fact is, though, that in many regards it's skewed opposite the way many people believe it is.
This sig has been stolen. Return it to its original user for a reward.
The game takes place in Southern California in the early 90s. This was the height of gang violence in that area and most gangs were made up of blacks or hispanics. I'm sure there were plenty of white people committing crimes at the time but that's not the subject matter of this particular game. Screaming racism in the face of documented history is just silly.
I can probably name a couple dozen all-white (or, more to the point, all-Japanese) games off the top of my head, and I'm sure that the've largely gone un-acknowledged. What I have a harder time naming is any games where an inteligent main (or at least important) character was black, latino, etc ...
:P )
I personally never found it very surprising that sports games sell well among minorities. They're one of the few genres of game where you can count on seeing successful minorities being judged solely on thier abilities, accomplishments, and occasionally team affiliation. (c'mon, we all have rivalries
Oh, and as far as Rockstar using racial stereotypes in their games... no guff chet. You can be offended if you choose, but at least don't act so surprised.
-=-=-=-=-=
I'd rather be flamed than ignored.
Personally, I'm offended that caucasian game developers who implement villainous characters of other races are often stereotyped as racist bigots. What are they going to do about THAT, huh?? Oh, that's right; nothing. Because my great, great, great grandparants, who have been dead for 100 friggin' years weren't slaves! How many people own slaves here in America today? Isn't about time that we GET THE HELL OVER IT?
I looked at a few screenshots of the game in question, and I can't think of a single, high-crime neighborhood that I've been in that didn't look EXACTLY like that. Please excuse Rockstar Games for making their game realistic.
But God demonstrates his love for us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us - (Romans 5:8)
Frankly, I would expect an american company, to have learned from its past and not promote these types of stupidity. In a way, it's disrespectful for what most of us have stood up against. Worse yet, it's plain wrong in that it gives "black", "latino", and any other races that get depicted in this fasion. After all, isn't America supposed to be about equality of people and power? Isn't this just plain slanderous of an entire group of people who will now be seen more as thieves and other assorted criminals? We dont' want to put criminals in power, but minorities should be ok, yet we slight them in this way? Shame on you GTA producers.
The simple fact is that the basis for the entire game is centered around the "gangsta-rap-culture" movies produced in the late 80s and throughout the 90s. Most of these movies obtained their direction (especially in the form of writing, acting, etc) from the very people that are supposedly being slandered by this game.
People like to talk about the music and movie industries taking advantage of people, but in the end, "gangsta" rappers were among the first people to take control over their own careers by creating their own record labels and taking on most of the production positions normally filled by whoever the record label feels like putting in the studio. The primary reason they did this, of course, was that labels wouldn't touch their music until the early 90s unless there was someone else to take the heat for the language and portrayal of violence. Once the music became popular, of course, the movie deals came, and in many cases the artists exerted similar (though not to the same extent, due to the difference in the type of knowledge required) control.
Now we have someone making a game based around the image that these movies and music portrayed, much like their previous GTA title was based heavily on the image portrayed by a combination of Miami Vice, Scarface, and other movies and TV shows portraying cops and gangsters in the 80s. This particular game company has learned that taking essentially the same game (GTA3) and putting period elements on it makes it more appealing to the demographic that is supposed to be mature enough to play these games in the first place (after all, what do people born after 1985 really have to feel nostalgic about from the 80s, or really remember about the explosion of "gangsta rap" in the late 80s and early 90s?).
Then again, if it were simply another white or Italian protagonist, we'd only be hearing about the violence itself, unless some gang in the game was named after their race.
-PainKilleR-[CE]
"Redneck" is not the preferred nomenclature. "Southern-US American", please.
I'm just glad that movies and television don't have racial steriotypes. It's good to see that every other form of media has progressed beyond that.
What appalled me in your link was the fact that this woman *is* in fact intermarried with a white guy and she fears and have nightmares with black folks. This is a sign IMHO that *she* has serious problems.
Ok, this could get ugly quick, but:
Right now, there is a correlation with young black people and a violent, not-very-educated street culture. There are violent, undeucated people of all colors, of course, and you're doing yourself and the culture at large a disservice if you "profile" someone exclusively on skin tone, and there are tons of historical reasons why that subset of black culture exists and is such a noticable cultural force, but what she's getting at is it's sometimes hard to get in a reasonable conversation about the kind of phenomenon with the term "RACIST!" being slung around and shutting down productive conversation.
The fact is, given some reasonable definitions of racism, most people are racist to greater or less degrees: often concerned about the well-being of their subset social group (like, heh, Geeks on slashdot...), and also using a variety of visual and audio cues to make at least a first best guess about what that person is all about. (and like in the case of a bunch urban-looking youths or redneck-looking bikers, if they're likely to be some kind of threat.) Really worrisome racism is when people can't get past their subgroup concerns and first impressions and preconceived notions; to damn everyone who has any twinges of that feeling is not helpful.
SO YOU'RE GOING TO DIE: The Comic for Dealing with Death
I'm going to take things out of order a bit, because the points are somewhat separated...
:-)
How can I be a bigot? Whatever your race is, I certainly can feel related. Many Brazilians are in the same condition as I am, maybe I am more conscious (having done some extensive genealogic research) of my multi-ethnicity. When filling forms with "race/ethnicity", I usually seek for the "all of the above" option...
What appalled me in your link was the fact that this woman *is* in fact intermarried with a white guy and she fears and have nightmares with black folks. This is a sign IMHO that *she* has serious problems.
The whole point of the piece was that people need to remember that racism isn't just a white problem, or homophobia isn't just a heterosexual problem, it's something that everyone needs to address. Additionally, just because you're black (or in your personal case, multi-ethnic) doesn't make you immune to being racist.
But USofAns, more than European people, apparently segregate much more deeply, by race, by religion, etc. They don't seem to intermarry as commonly as down here.
I really couldn't say, because I have never been to Europe. However, I would say that in the US the line seems to be much more along class lines than racial lines. Unfortunately, class and racial lines have a tendency to coincide to a large degree in the US. If you find that you're in a city in the US and the locals are primarily black or latino, there's a good chance that you're in an area where people make less money, and therefore in a lower-class neighborhood. If most of the people are white, you simply have to look at the size and maintenance of the homes to determine the class of the neighborhood, because there are white neighborhoods at all levels of the "class struggle".
From my own experience, having lived both in California and Virginia (the latter having been the capital of the Confederacy), racial mixing (both in families and in neighborhoods) is actually more common in the south, where integration was actually forced into being in the last century, than in the west, where people generally don't consider segregation to be an issue (it's not that they believe segregation is ok, they simply don't believe, and many probably wouldn't, they'd have a problem if black or latino people moved into their neighborhoods). The lines are still drawn primarily by how much money you make on the west coast as they are in the south, but no one forced people to integrate along racial lines in California, therefore most of them never did.
I grew up in a primarily white neighborhood in southern California, middle class (probably upper middle class now that housing prices have sky-rocketed), where the most common minority was latino, at roughly 5% (the white population being roughly 87%). When I moved to Virginia, sharing a place with a co-worker, we were literally the only white people on our block, and I'll admit that initially it made me nervous. However, I have to add that it wasn't just the fact that most of the people living around me were black that made me nervous, but it was also the fact that I could not possibly have found a place in southern California that was that cheap to live in without qualifying for government assistance (which is to say, living in welfare housing projects). This made me believe that I was living in what was probably a bad part of town, somewhere you might have to keep your car alarmed and possibly not leave your home unoccupied for too long, should someone decide to break in and either trash the place or steal all of your stuff.
As I continued to live there, though, I realized that I was actually living in a lower-middle-class neighborhood and that housing was simply significantly cheaper anywhere in the state than it was in California. The people living around me primarily had jobs in similar areas (not computers, but working for similar companies; despite working as a software developer there are very few people tha
-PainKilleR-[CE]
now now, there are black people in the NHL, to name just a few Grant Fuhr (Goalie - Edmonton Oilers during their dynasty years in the 80s) Freddie Braithwaite (Goalie - Edmonton Oilers, St Louis Blues, and others) Mike Grier (forward) Anson Carter (forward) Jarome Iginla (forward) and many more whos names escape me at this point.
Well, since you are from So. Cal, but didn't mention LA- my guess i that you are from either the Valley, or more likely O.C.
I'm from OC, and prior to moving away I had the exact same feeling that you did. Not so much that "black people were bad", but that if you lived in a neighborhood with black people, then you were obviously in a really bad neighborhood. And, a true "mexican neighborhood" (I.e., Santa Ana) was also something that should be avoided...other than making weekly runs to Townsend St. to pick up a bag of weed.
So eventually I left OC and went into the Army and gasp! I ended up spending 3 years being one of only ~5 white guys in a platoon full of 55 black guys. That opened my eyes to a LOT of things. I would not have considered myself 'racist' in the past, just completely un-aware. Growing up in a fairly well-off neighborhood in Orange County can do that to you. Oh yeah...we had a black guy at our high school...but his dad was a professional athlete.
I've moved on, and now I live in a city where the population is about 45% hispanic, 40% white, and a mix of everything else for the last 15%.
My sister who still lives in the same area I grew up, never moved away. Now I consider her to be one of the most racist people I know. I look back and wonder..."was I as bad as she is?"
Well the whole point of this is....some of those "middle class white neighborhoods" of Southern California can gives kids a very distorted view of the world. The real estate prices are so high- and the reality of the hispanic/black underclass so prevalent...that a lot of kids grow up surrounded only by whites (and of course Japanese/Chinese...) They're not raised to be prejudice, but it just becomes an outgrowth of their environment.
Oh...and also, while I was in the Army I lived in Germany. While OC may just be racist 'by accident' (mostly financial) I found Germany to be an extremely overtly racist place. Going out to local parks/pools/restaurants with my friends (black) gave me a view of what the US must have been like in the 50's. My friends wouldn't be let into nightclubs because of a 'dresscode', or we would be told that the 'pool was closed now' (with tons of people in it). Or we would go to a restaurant and the waitress just would never come to our table to take our order. No...Europe is no wonderland of color-blind society.
No reason to lie.
You know, at some point, someone needs to make a game in which you play as a video game company constantly battling a never-ending hoarde of lawyers who thrive on nitpicking every detail of everything you do.
"The buildings in your latest game are not wheelchair accessable. You've been sued."
"The color of the sky in your latest game has been found to give 5% of the population mild headaches after 20 continuous hours of exposure. You've been sued."
"Your latest game unjustly depicts people with red skin, sharp, pointy teeth, horns, and cloven hooves as sinister. You've been sued."
Seriously, the only gaming company that seems to get in more hot water than Rockstar is Infinium Labs.
Happiness is relative, Based upon the way we live.
> No...Europe is no wonderland of color-blind society.
Indeed. European intellectuals used to balk at the "mixing of the races" in America. And then, suddenly around 1970, they turned around and started calling us racists.
Europe today is still a hotbed of racism (and increasingly anti-Judaism).
[PowerPoint] is a tool for capitalist presentation
A) There aren't many black characters in video games.
B) When there are black characters in video games, they are either violent characters or athletes.
Well, most popular video games are sports games or shooters of some kind. Therefore, most major characters will be violent characters or athletes. To solve problem (A) would be to exacerbate problem (B). To completely solve problem (B) would nearly eliminate black characters from games, putting problem (A) back in the fore.
Personally, I think GTA:SA will probably be relatively fair (remember I said relatively). Showing violence isn't the worst thing. I bet the guys at Rockstar will be looking to movies like "Boyz N the Hood" for inspiration and tone, and the main characters will come off no worse than the main characters in past GTA games.