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Racial Issues Alleged In GTA San Andreas, Other Games
Thanks to the New York Times (free reg. req.) for its article exploring possible racial stereotyping inherent in many videogames. The article alleges: "Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas... underscores what some critics consider a disturbing trend: popular video games that play on racial stereotypes, including images of black youths committing and reveling in violent street crime." Partially, though not wholly related to a recently discussed article on 'street' videogames, it's also argued: "The issue, critics say, is not that the games' representation of racial and ethnic minorities is as blatantly threatening as the sort found at hate sites on the Web, where players are asked to gun down virtual black or Jewish characters. Rather, the racial and ethnic depictions and story lines are more subtle, and therefore, some say, more insidious."
So we're supposed to ignore the last 4 GTA titles just because the one coming up will have a black character to represent the player?
Only white people can commit violence in video games now? And here I thought people were complaining because there weren't enough minorities in video games, now you can't put them into video games without someone complaining about the way they're portrayed (come on, this isn't like that Duke3D-engine game from a few years ago featuring an Asian protagonist, but then no one complained about the depiction of white people in Redneck Rampage, either).
-PainKilleR-[CE]
Let's ban ghettos! In there you will find all these stereotypes walking around where anyone can see them! Even little children. Save the little children!
Today's Slate featured piece was by a black woman lawyer called Racist Like Me...it raises some interesting points about how the accusation of racism tends to be a conversation- (and thought-) stopper, and how as a culture we should probably be more engaged in this kind of discussion.
SO YOU'RE GOING TO DIE: The Comic for Dealing with Death
Don't these people at DMA know that LA gangs of the early nineties were uniformly white?
Oh. Never mind.
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"
Always busy bitching about crap and not taking any action. In fact, I'm going to write a game where you're white and all you can do it bitch about stuff. Someone mugs you? You can start a commitee and bitch about it with other whities. Someone kicks your dog? You can start a commitee and bitch about it with other whities. Someone nuked your backyard with an old russian ICBM? You can start a commitee and bitch about it with other whities.
Ps, I'm white; Seth
As they are the first who introduced those stereotypes. These kind of videogames such as GTA only try to emulate cinema through development of characters and plots similar to those seen on common blockbuster titles at big screen.
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Thinking never hurt anybody --MacGyver
"he prominence of black characters in those story lines is all the more striking because of the narrow range of video games in which blacks have been present, if present at all, over the years. A 2001 study by Children Now, for example, found that of 1,500 video-game characters surveyed, 288 were African-American males - and 83 percent of those were represented as athletes."
e s/2001/
I was curious - how many of the 1500 were hedgehogs? Racoons? Demon imps?
I checked the report this figure was lifted from:
http://www.childrennow.org/media/video-gam
"White characters were the majority in the video game population (56%)" - thats as opposed to 19% being african-american males (see above). That's compared to the real US population which is 80% white and roughly 7% african-american males (see http://www.census.gov/statab/www/poprace.html) - even ignoring for a moment that many games originate in Japan where the racial mix is even more skewed.
The accusations of stereotyping and the narrow range of games including such characters ring true, but the "if present at all" remark is completely unsupported by the figures - if anything african-american males are quite over-represented in games. Although not to the extent of space aliens, who make up less than 1% of the real population.
Living in the UK, I'd ask - where are the asian characters? (apart from japanese/chinese). Our population is about 5% from the indian subcontinent, but I can't recall ever playing a game with indian or pakistani characters.
However, I would also like to point something else out. GTA is about gangs and street violence. The reality is that, while people like those complaining don't like to talk about it, there are many gangs composed of specific races. Italian mafia, black gangstas, Latino, Irish, gangs composed just generally of white people(ie. white-supremacist groups), and as the OP pointed out, white rednecks.
Rockstar didn't create the current situation. In fact, that they are making video-games that reflect a little bit of reality can only bring attention to the issue, which can only be good.
Do people like the writer of the article want us all to put our fingers in our ears and close our eyes?
Fucking idiots. Why don't people put pressure on these groups who are actually committing violence? I guess that would make too much sense.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
Have you ever noticed the lack of asian characters in Japanese developed games? Most characters seem to be cookie cutter caucasians. FFX is one of the few that comes to mind that had any characters with asian features, and even then, there was a disparity between the in game look of the characters and their look in the CG cinemas. They looked caucasian in the normal gameplay, and had asian features in the CGs.
Schindlers List. =D
WANNAWIKI Wannawiki WannaWiki WANNAWIKI!
They've been making hockey games for years. I haven't heard a black person complain about that yet.
What we need is federal affirmative action programs for criminal street gangs. If we can't bust them for illegal weapons or dope, we can smother them with greedy lawyers.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
This definitely sounds like racism to me. A white, Italian stereotype can go around gunning down anyone he wants, but as soon as he has to kill members of a Haitian gang, it's racist. But make the protagonist black, and all of a sudden it's reinforcing stereotypes and represents racism against African-Americans? Come on! There's a United Negro College Fund. If there were a United Caucasian College Fund, these same people would be crying racist. Yes, it is racist. It's racist that there is such a dichotomy - what's acceptable for one race isn't acceptable for another, and vice versa. This is just further evidence of the absence of racial equality in our society. The fact is, though, that in many regards it's skewed opposite the way many people believe it is.
This sig has been stolen. Return it to its original user for a reward.
One of the many things to reduce prejiduce and dispell stereotypes, is positive exposure.
For instance, the entire "nerd" stereotype. I'm sure there are quite a few nerds here. Heck, by the base definition of just beign smart, I'm a nerd. It doesn't mean that I'm phsically uncoordinated or have a severe inability to interact with people. I don't get sick very often, except when I'm unusally stressed. Never had a bad case of acne. A lot of people follow this line of life. But through exposure, we know that acne + social flaws + uncoordinated isn't tied to being smart.
Another example, the entire cold war "Russians are backwards" stereotype. The biggest thing that's different between Russians and Americans are where they live, the languages spoken and small cultural things. These differences exist between any two cultures to varying degrees. But via exposure, we learn that a lot of thinsg aren't true because we see for ourselevs.
By showing various races in negative stereotypes only reinforces certain ideas. Eventually, one deems for current fact either what isn't fact or isn't even current just because the idea was presented to them, not from some random joe on the street, but a coorporation.
Frankly, I would expect an american company, to have learned from its past and not promote these types of stupidity. In a way, it's disrespectful for what most of us have stood up against. Worse yet, it's plain wrong in that it gives "black", "latino", and any other races that get depicted in this fasion. After all, isn't America supposed to be about equality of people and power? Isn't this just plain slanderous of an entire group of people who will now be seen more as thieves and other assorted criminals? We dont' want to put criminals in power, but minorities should be ok, yet we slight them in this way? Shame on you GTA producers.
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ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only
The game takes place in Southern California in the early 90s. This was the height of gang violence in that area and most gangs were made up of blacks or hispanics. I'm sure there were plenty of white people committing crimes at the time but that's not the subject matter of this particular game. Screaming racism in the face of documented history is just silly.
I can probably name a couple dozen all-white (or, more to the point, all-Japanese) games off the top of my head, and I'm sure that the've largely gone un-acknowledged. What I have a harder time naming is any games where an inteligent main (or at least important) character was black, latino, etc ...
:P )
I personally never found it very surprising that sports games sell well among minorities. They're one of the few genres of game where you can count on seeing successful minorities being judged solely on thier abilities, accomplishments, and occasionally team affiliation. (c'mon, we all have rivalries
Oh, and as far as Rockstar using racial stereotypes in their games... no guff chet. You can be offended if you choose, but at least don't act so surprised.
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I'd rather be flamed than ignored.
Personally, I'm offended that caucasian game developers who implement villainous characters of other races are often stereotyped as racist bigots. What are they going to do about THAT, huh?? Oh, that's right; nothing. Because my great, great, great grandparants, who have been dead for 100 friggin' years weren't slaves! How many people own slaves here in America today? Isn't about time that we GET THE HELL OVER IT?
I looked at a few screenshots of the game in question, and I can't think of a single, high-crime neighborhood that I've been in that didn't look EXACTLY like that. Please excuse Rockstar Games for making their game realistic.
But God demonstrates his love for us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us - (Romans 5:8)
"Redneck" is not the preferred nomenclature. "Southern-US American", please.
I'm just glad that movies and television don't have racial steriotypes. It's good to see that every other form of media has progressed beyond that.
The two latest GTA games have been filled with racial stereotypes. Japanese Yakuza, Chinese Triads, Columbian Drug Dealers. The game has been thriving on racial stereotypes since it hit the PS2, and Xbox. Doesn't matter if the lead character is black, white, chinese, or whatever. GTA3's character was technically Italian...not white. Another stereotype with the Italian Mafia. Granted, I don't know how often you're going to find multi-ethnical organized crime establishments. At least its not saying, all 'insert race here' are violent and prone to rebellion. Its more saying all Yakuza, Triad, and Columbian Drug Cartels are prone to violence and rebellion. Lets face it, organized crime exists to committ crime. Long story short, there's nothing new here.
as much as I personally detest the GTA games...
"Art imitates Life."
MORTAR COMBAT!
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If they dont want to be in the soon-to-be greatest video game ever then tell them they can't be in it anyway...because I am going to be in it. I mean c'mon, who wouldn't mind being this guy:
True Gangsta
If carrots got you drunk, rabbits would be fucked up. - Comedian Mitch Hedberg R.I.P. 03/30/68-2/24/05
What appalled me in your link was the fact that this woman *is* in fact intermarried with a white guy and she fears and have nightmares with black folks. This is a sign IMHO that *she* has serious problems.
Ok, this could get ugly quick, but:
Right now, there is a correlation with young black people and a violent, not-very-educated street culture. There are violent, undeucated people of all colors, of course, and you're doing yourself and the culture at large a disservice if you "profile" someone exclusively on skin tone, and there are tons of historical reasons why that subset of black culture exists and is such a noticable cultural force, but what she's getting at is it's sometimes hard to get in a reasonable conversation about the kind of phenomenon with the term "RACIST!" being slung around and shutting down productive conversation.
The fact is, given some reasonable definitions of racism, most people are racist to greater or less degrees: often concerned about the well-being of their subset social group (like, heh, Geeks on slashdot...), and also using a variety of visual and audio cues to make at least a first best guess about what that person is all about. (and like in the case of a bunch urban-looking youths or redneck-looking bikers, if they're likely to be some kind of threat.) Really worrisome racism is when people can't get past their subgroup concerns and first impressions and preconceived notions; to damn everyone who has any twinges of that feeling is not helpful.
SO YOU'RE GOING TO DIE: The Comic for Dealing with Death
If you were to derive meaning from the context it's used you might think that "stereotyping" means or implies "racism" automatically, when in fact it's just another word for "conceptualization," which is something all language-using, thinking humans must do for their finite brains to cope with an infinite world.
If Australopithecus found a red bulb that smelled and tasted good, then saw another bulb of the same color and smell, it would eat it. Ergo, racial profiling. Seriously.
The statistical reality is that the super majority of Grand Theft Auto crimes are committed by Black and Hispanic people. Apparently even suggesting this statistical fact is "stereotyping" and intrinsically racist, even lacking specific extrapolation. When a Black or Hispanic is portrayed as committing a crime "not unbeknownst to their race," as it were, the furor erupts - but why?
I think the real reason for outcry is (and I don't say this with cruelty) embarassment, plain and simple. You see the same sort of shame from the Italian/Sicilian-American community over gangster portrayals, and from Americans over "ugly American" portrayals. But embarassing facts coming out in the open always causes shame. I don't see why reality should be ignored in order to assauge someone's feelings about their social status. There is absolutely nothing wrong, or even incorrect, about portraying "brown people" committing urban crimes, rioting, looting, etc. And since there is absolutely no indication in GTA4 that these "brown people" are representative of all others in all other cases, I don't see how this could be construed as racist by any but the embarrassed themselves.
--
Evan
"$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
I'm going to take things out of order a bit, because the points are somewhat separated...
:-)
How can I be a bigot? Whatever your race is, I certainly can feel related. Many Brazilians are in the same condition as I am, maybe I am more conscious (having done some extensive genealogic research) of my multi-ethnicity. When filling forms with "race/ethnicity", I usually seek for the "all of the above" option...
What appalled me in your link was the fact that this woman *is* in fact intermarried with a white guy and she fears and have nightmares with black folks. This is a sign IMHO that *she* has serious problems.
The whole point of the piece was that people need to remember that racism isn't just a white problem, or homophobia isn't just a heterosexual problem, it's something that everyone needs to address. Additionally, just because you're black (or in your personal case, multi-ethnic) doesn't make you immune to being racist.
But USofAns, more than European people, apparently segregate much more deeply, by race, by religion, etc. They don't seem to intermarry as commonly as down here.
I really couldn't say, because I have never been to Europe. However, I would say that in the US the line seems to be much more along class lines than racial lines. Unfortunately, class and racial lines have a tendency to coincide to a large degree in the US. If you find that you're in a city in the US and the locals are primarily black or latino, there's a good chance that you're in an area where people make less money, and therefore in a lower-class neighborhood. If most of the people are white, you simply have to look at the size and maintenance of the homes to determine the class of the neighborhood, because there are white neighborhoods at all levels of the "class struggle".
From my own experience, having lived both in California and Virginia (the latter having been the capital of the Confederacy), racial mixing (both in families and in neighborhoods) is actually more common in the south, where integration was actually forced into being in the last century, than in the west, where people generally don't consider segregation to be an issue (it's not that they believe segregation is ok, they simply don't believe, and many probably wouldn't, they'd have a problem if black or latino people moved into their neighborhoods). The lines are still drawn primarily by how much money you make on the west coast as they are in the south, but no one forced people to integrate along racial lines in California, therefore most of them never did.
I grew up in a primarily white neighborhood in southern California, middle class (probably upper middle class now that housing prices have sky-rocketed), where the most common minority was latino, at roughly 5% (the white population being roughly 87%). When I moved to Virginia, sharing a place with a co-worker, we were literally the only white people on our block, and I'll admit that initially it made me nervous. However, I have to add that it wasn't just the fact that most of the people living around me were black that made me nervous, but it was also the fact that I could not possibly have found a place in southern California that was that cheap to live in without qualifying for government assistance (which is to say, living in welfare housing projects). This made me believe that I was living in what was probably a bad part of town, somewhere you might have to keep your car alarmed and possibly not leave your home unoccupied for too long, should someone decide to break in and either trash the place or steal all of your stuff.
As I continued to live there, though, I realized that I was actually living in a lower-middle-class neighborhood and that housing was simply significantly cheaper anywhere in the state than it was in California. The people living around me primarily had jobs in similar areas (not computers, but working for similar companies; despite working as a software developer there are very few people tha
-PainKilleR-[CE]
What I have a harder time naming is any games where an inteligent main (or at least important) character was black, latino, etc ...
Grim Fandango: Strong latino characters. Dead, but still latino.
Gabriel Knight: Smart, female Japanese sidekick.
Intelligent black characters? I'm having a hard time coming up with one. James Earl Jones as GDI Supreme Commander in Tiberian Sun?
It's not good that we have to think for 20 minutes to remember any intelligent minority game characters.
now now, there are black people in the NHL, to name just a few Grant Fuhr (Goalie - Edmonton Oilers during their dynasty years in the 80s) Freddie Braithwaite (Goalie - Edmonton Oilers, St Louis Blues, and others) Mike Grier (forward) Anson Carter (forward) Jarome Iginla (forward) and many more whos names escape me at this point.
Well, since you are from So. Cal, but didn't mention LA- my guess i that you are from either the Valley, or more likely O.C.
I'm from OC, and prior to moving away I had the exact same feeling that you did. Not so much that "black people were bad", but that if you lived in a neighborhood with black people, then you were obviously in a really bad neighborhood. And, a true "mexican neighborhood" (I.e., Santa Ana) was also something that should be avoided...other than making weekly runs to Townsend St. to pick up a bag of weed.
So eventually I left OC and went into the Army and gasp! I ended up spending 3 years being one of only ~5 white guys in a platoon full of 55 black guys. That opened my eyes to a LOT of things. I would not have considered myself 'racist' in the past, just completely un-aware. Growing up in a fairly well-off neighborhood in Orange County can do that to you. Oh yeah...we had a black guy at our high school...but his dad was a professional athlete.
I've moved on, and now I live in a city where the population is about 45% hispanic, 40% white, and a mix of everything else for the last 15%.
My sister who still lives in the same area I grew up, never moved away. Now I consider her to be one of the most racist people I know. I look back and wonder..."was I as bad as she is?"
Well the whole point of this is....some of those "middle class white neighborhoods" of Southern California can gives kids a very distorted view of the world. The real estate prices are so high- and the reality of the hispanic/black underclass so prevalent...that a lot of kids grow up surrounded only by whites (and of course Japanese/Chinese...) They're not raised to be prejudice, but it just becomes an outgrowth of their environment.
Oh...and also, while I was in the Army I lived in Germany. While OC may just be racist 'by accident' (mostly financial) I found Germany to be an extremely overtly racist place. Going out to local parks/pools/restaurants with my friends (black) gave me a view of what the US must have been like in the 50's. My friends wouldn't be let into nightclubs because of a 'dresscode', or we would be told that the 'pool was closed now' (with tons of people in it). Or we would go to a restaurant and the waitress just would never come to our table to take our order. No...Europe is no wonderland of color-blind society.
No reason to lie.
Well, since you are from So. Cal, but didn't mention LA- my guess i that you are from either the Valley, or more likely O.C.
There's this small town near the border called San Diego, 6th largest city in the US, few million people living in the surrounding counties. Now, in east county, there are a couple of cities that are extremely majority white, and a couple of cities that are primarily latino and black. Obviously, I lived in one of the majority white cities, and the middle-class/upper-middle class designation would probably clarify which for anyone that's actually familiar with the area (unless, of course, they assume that anything outside of La Jolla is lower class).
I have to add, though, that black and Mexican (as opposed to the more general term latino, since a non-Mexican latino was quite rare) people were not so rare that you never knew any of them, but there's a far cry from knowing that 1 black guy in your high school to being 1 of the only 2 white guys on your block. You have no problem with the individuals, as you can treat them as individuals and it often doesn't change any part of your general view of racial stereotypes and so forth. Unfortunately, when you live in an area with a large "minority" population, you quickly learn that some of those stereotypes have a foundation (but of course aren't completely true), and that you should never assume they're true unless you have to make a life-or-death decision.
The other thing I learned, of course, was that it's really hard to get good mexican food once you leave San Diego.
-PainKilleR-[CE]
You know, at some point, someone needs to make a game in which you play as a video game company constantly battling a never-ending hoarde of lawyers who thrive on nitpicking every detail of everything you do.
"The buildings in your latest game are not wheelchair accessable. You've been sued."
"The color of the sky in your latest game has been found to give 5% of the population mild headaches after 20 continuous hours of exposure. You've been sued."
"Your latest game unjustly depicts people with red skin, sharp, pointy teeth, horns, and cloven hooves as sinister. You've been sued."
Seriously, the only gaming company that seems to get in more hot water than Rockstar is Infinium Labs.
Happiness is relative, Based upon the way we live.
Star Wars? Lando, Mace Windu, both were just normal people in the movie. Race isn't even mentioned. Of course, with all those aliens, a little skin coloration doens't mean much.
SAILING MISHAP
> No...Europe is no wonderland of color-blind society.
Indeed. European intellectuals used to balk at the "mixing of the races" in America. And then, suddenly around 1970, they turned around and started calling us racists.
Europe today is still a hotbed of racism (and increasingly anti-Judaism).
[PowerPoint] is a tool for capitalist presentation
I bet the main character in GTA:SA is both intelligent and likeable. I'm not saying he won't be violent and associated with a gang, but I bet he's intelligent.
I'm not racist, I got a color TV!
Even Rockstar has other games wheres "whites" are the criminals. I haven't played other GTA games since I have a Nintendo gamecube, but Smuggler's run: Warzones depicts whitey having a field day break all manner of international law. No one cares about that!!!
A) There aren't many black characters in video games.
B) When there are black characters in video games, they are either violent characters or athletes.
Well, most popular video games are sports games or shooters of some kind. Therefore, most major characters will be violent characters or athletes. To solve problem (A) would be to exacerbate problem (B). To completely solve problem (B) would nearly eliminate black characters from games, putting problem (A) back in the fore.
Personally, I think GTA:SA will probably be relatively fair (remember I said relatively). Showing violence isn't the worst thing. I bet the guys at Rockstar will be looking to movies like "Boyz N the Hood" for inspiration and tone, and the main characters will come off no worse than the main characters in past GTA games.