Slashdot Mirror
More Details on Cut-Rate Windows OS For Asia
glawrie writes "The BBC is carrying a story that Microsoft is to launch a (very) cut down version of Windows XP to combat Linux in Asian countries. According to the story, 'Windows XP Starter Edition' will be limited to low-res graphics, limited networking, and will be hobbled to prevent more than three applications running concurrently. It remains to be seen why anyone in target countries would choose this over Linux, or the widely available pirate copies of 'full' Windows XP." We mentioned this in June.
As "Torrents," the BSA Copyright Weasel sez, "even absurdly hobbled but copywritten, paid-for software is way cooler than that yucky pirate and OSS stuff, kids!"
"...all the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness..." yada yada
Without crazy colors
Lets sell a hobbled, half assed version of an operating system when the person can buy the same thing for less than what they're going to charge for the half assed version.
Hmm. Suddenly I'm not so worried about the Microsoft marketing machine.
Yes Francis, the world has gone crazy.
What defines an application?? If you start something as a service, does this mean it's not an application? Surely there must be more than three services running at time.
When I tell an object to delete this, am I killing it or telling it to kill me?
Except that you're paying for it...
This idea is sure to succeed because those horrible, evil, open source zealots would never think of this idea.
3 Concurrent programs? I don't even think you can successfully update your system on Windows without running more than 3 programs.
On a side note, laughing my ass off about why anyone would choose this sideshow over better, more robust, and free products. They'll probably lower the price down to $50, which is $50 too much.
Read the only personal Runyon page out there.
If I lived in a country targeted for this release, I would still use a pirated copy of Windows. Why pay money for something nearly useless when I can get something nearly useful for free? This will not stop piracy.
before some enterprising Asian hacker merely removes the constraints from the crippled software?
But given the low cost of a pirated copy of Windows I still think this is a strategy doomed to failure!
I don't read your sig, why do you read mine?
'Windows XP Starter Edition' will be limited to low-res graphics, limited networking, and will be hobbled to prevent more than three applications running concurrently.
That will give new users a taste of how bad XP is, before making the choice between Linux (full res, full net, great multitasking) and XP (low res, limited net, 3 apps).
I thought Microsoft was just going to cut out programs like media player and solitare, not completely cripple the OS and make it practically useless.
Given that Windows without Media Player and Solitaire IS useless to many people that'd be the same, m'kay?
Cool, so you just have to open 3 programs and no worm could be executed?
Aren't there more processes running when windows starts?
Move Sig. For great justice.
Why would you pay for a crippled, low functionality product, regarless of how "cheap" it is? There are full function, feature packed Open Source operating systems available for free. I don't see how lowering the capabilities of their software, regardless of price, will make it MORE attrative. Perhaps the shoe is on the other foot now. Microsoft will know how Netscape felt trying to compete with a "free" competitor in an emerging market.
Remember the old registry hack from the NT 4 days? How much do you want to be that all you need is a kernel32.dll from a real XP install, and a suck=no entry in the HLKM\Screw\You\Microsoft key?
This is dumb on MS' part on so many levels - people will try it, see that it sucks, and go with $Localized-Government-Sponsored-Linux instead.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
I also read on heise.de that it will be limited to a screen resolution of 800x600.
Given the fact that most modern websites are designed for 1024x768 and all the recent games require at least 1024x768 I wonder how useful an OS is that is limited so severe. Your nextdoor Linux distribution is 10 times more powerful than "XP Starter Edition". I would continue to pirate if I would be presented with that kind of joke.
there's 25% less chance of virus infection! And significantly less carbs! With same funky acquired taste of XP!
"Microsoft's new software - dubbed "XP Lite" - will feature lower resolution graphics and limited options for networking computers together." So basically it's like Windows98?
...and will be hobbled to prevent more than three applications running concurrently.
:-/
Sounds like any other version of a Microsoft OS.
While parent is probably trolling, there is some truth to his statement. Windows just doesn't do so well when you load it down with programs (active or not). "Cache Thrash" is simply a way of life for Windows users; even those with gobs of memory. I've known people who have completely disabled the Windows cache because of these problems. Microsoft needs to rip out their VM and threading system, and redesign it for modern computers with 128+ megs of RAM.
The Unixes do it much better, but the programs do take slightly longer to run. I remember the first time I used a Solaris box. A puny Ultra 5, and it was absolutely kicking NT's ass on parallelism! I could have 7 or 8 "busy" programs, and my desktop would never become unresponsive! Mac OS X has made use of the same concept, expect that the window is double-buffered. The end result is that you never see an ugly unpainted window. Now if only Apple would fix the 101 ways to lock up finder.
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
Microsoft isn't the first to offer a discount for certain countries. $40 or $50 over there is probably worth more than $300 here in the US. Microsoft could give it away for $10 and still make a small profit. The goal is not to make money in that respect, but to keep countries locked in to their products. If they start using linux now, they'll never get them back.
You're not going to compete with Linux by crippling your operating system, Bill.
This is the PCjr. of operating systems, destined to be a laughed-at memory.
It was a joke! When you give me that look it was a joke.
Actually, it's "XP Lite".
... well, there's always the Microsoft Bob Memorial Archive.
I really don't understand why Microsoft is trying to release this crap. No more than 3 apps at a time? Why that hard limit? It's not like they re-built XP for simpler multitasking.
Microsoft is an enormous corporation with many people trying to get things done. If my experience at DEC and HP in the 1990s is any metric, XP Lite could be some pet project for a VP to gain some brownie or "atta boy" points. If it works out, then good for him. If it doesn't
[You have a stable society when some nut guns down a schoolyard and the law doesn't change.]
Commersial program to remove components from Windows XP http://www.litepc.com/xplite.html
Free programs to reduce the size of Windows XP before installation: http://nuhi.msfn.org/ and http://jdeboeck.msfnhosting.com/
And of course, my project that reduces the size of Windows 98 to less than 5MB http://www.etek.chalmers.se/~e8gus/nano98/ ;-)
Actually I think $50 is about $99,950 too much. They would have to pay me to use it.
One wonders what they are trying to achieve with this. Surely this is not going to stop rampant piracy. If I have the choice of a cheap full version from the blackmarket with next to no probability of being caught, and a (probably more expensive) hobbled version, which one am I going to get?
In a way, it reminds me of the police raids that they sometimes have in places like Hong Kong, where they seize lots of CDs, and put them in front of a bulldozer. Then the press arrives, takes some photos for the papers, and that's it. These sort of things look like they are something against piracy, but in the end it never makes a differene.
Any one been to Hong Kong recently? Golden Shopping Arcade (Sham Shui Po) still there? They have been selling pirated software there since 1987. I would be surprised if they have been closed down permanently.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/08/11/winxp_star ter_edition_announced/
They'll still make no money. Now there will just be two things to pirate, the full os and Windows OSux.
Hmmm, I think that Microsoft is taking a big risk in promoting a cut rate Windows XP in developing countries. First of all, the people in those countries are not any stupider than people anywhere else in the world. They will know that they are getting the dumbed down, brain damaged version of Windows XP. Even if this costs less than a pirated version (which remains to be seen), I think most will opt for the non crippled pirated version. People already knock Windows for its shortcomings as it is, does Microsoft need to add to this? Not only that, even offering this crippled Windows could be taken as an insult.
A slimmed down version of Windows without some of the extra packages would be a lot better to offer than a crippled version. I think that in the end, Microsoft is going to have to accept the fact that in today's global marketplace, Windows is overpriced. In the face of Linux and free open source software solutions, I really don't know what they can do other than lower the price of admission and add more value and true innovation. There have to be really good killer app sort of reasons that make Windows the thing you want to have. Productivity applications like Office are no longer sufficient reason to stay with Windows. Games might be, but the PC games market is losing out to the console market. So what's left?
Finally, even a crippled Windows won't be immune to piracy! As we learned from the web browser wars, it's really hard to sell something that's being given away for free! Linux is free and certainly has everything a small business might need in the way of productivity apps. So how can Windows compete with that in places where it is not the dominant player and limited resources and nationalism come into play?
To the making of books there is no end, so let's get started
Seriously, they aren't making much of a case for themselves. In fact they are making more of a case for FOSS. By crippling windows, they are giving people an incentive to use FOSS since no Linux or *BSD that I know of is crippled like this. No one has ever attempted Apache-lite or some other equally ridiculous idea for a reason.
As the old gag goes, Emacs would be a pretty nice OS, if only someone could write a decent text editor for it...
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"
I think consumers will be downright insulted by this. Especially if they're not made well aware ahead of time that this is crippleware.
Case in point: Windows 2000/2003 Server "Web Edition." It's a cut-rate server they've made available to hosting companies to compete with Linux. Now and then I've had to help customers with this particular crippleware and hit a brick wall because a feature was disabled. For example, you can't make it a domain controller.
Hopefully this will insult the Asian people and they will redouble their adoption of Linux.
Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
But then someone let slip that GIMP was one of those hippy-freakout open source programs. They tried to call it the 'Photoshopped' version but were pummeled by Adobe. They now call it the 'Paint' version - eminently confusing but better than the 'Windows Picture and Fax Viewer' version.
I want to drag this out as long as possible. Bring me my protractor.
Crappy graphics, horrid networking, beyond shitty "multitasking" are they repackaging NT 4? :)
( o ) one could say I'm rather baked
I don't care if it's a Starter Edition or a Missle Defense Edition, I still say, the only safe Windows is abstinence.
This side up.
Further, I wouldn't exactly call Linux the most user friendly of environments, its geared toward people who want a lot of functionality and have the time to mess with every little detail.
This, in my humble opinion, is one the big limitation of Linux even with the current SuSE and Mandrake distributions. Configuring Linux to work for each user is definitely not a job for computer newbies.
But there is also another big limitation: Linux currently does not support the full functionality of many hardware peripherals out there, not to mention true automated configuration of any new installed hardware. Think about it: does Linux support the full functionality of the Sound Blaster Audigy card? Can you plug in a digital still camera through the USB ports and Linux will recognize the data on the memory card in the camera and "mount" the memory card with a new disk drive designation?
Hopefully, the people who maintain the Linux Standards Base will work with computer hardware companies and consumer electronics companies to settle these issues so Linux will become a truly viable alternative to Windows soon.
The pirates always do whatever they can to make more money. That includes going into theaters with camcorders to record a film that includes audience reactions at "no extra charge." So it's "no extra charge" for the bad version of Windows you're running that you bought from me when you thought you were getting the real deal.
According to Microsoft: the new software [will] also help deter consumers from buying pirated versions of its XP system, widely available in many Asian countries.
Thus, Microsoft, who wants to sell to corporations in the far east, wants to confuse the issue by making sure that the pirates have lots of inferior product so that the corporations no longer can trust the pirates or the pirated copies.
Gods don't kill people, people with gods kill people.
Perhaps the warning bells for proprietary solutions/OS began to ring for MS at least, when the Indian government made public its affection for OSS.
#1The Department of Information Technology has already devised a strategy to introduce Linux and open source software as a de-facto standard in academic institutions, especially in engineering colleges through course work that encourages use of such systems.
#2: Richard Stallman, founder of the Free Software Foundation, met on Thursday with Indian President A.P.J. Abdul Kalam to discuss "the ethical issues related to the use of proprietary software," according to the Free Software Foundation of India. Stallman also met officials in the state of Kerala to discuss the use of nonproprietary software in government initiatives. Last year, Kalam spoke out in favor of open-source software following a meeting with Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates.
So, there is ample reason to worry. Now wonder why they'd have a strangulated version of OS as a low-cost option?
http://efil.blogspot.com/
Why do I always see articles explain Linux as a 'so called' open source software. They make it sound as though Linux isn't really open source and that is the presses gripe about it. My gripe is about the 'so called' industry journalists not know what they are 'so called' writing about.
VMWare? Wouldn't that sort the whole limited application thing? Though I guess if you're going to run an OS in a VM to get around the limitations of the host OS, you may as well cut out the middle man...
Here's a sneak preview of the OS... Windows RG (Warning - requires flash)
This seems like it's going to be Microsoft's PCjr...give them something that *seems* like a good bargain at first, but you run up against the limitations pretty much immediately. Then you realize you've been had and swear you'll never buy a product from this company again.
Not that this ever happened to me *cough*.
It's also very demeaning to the countries involved, piracy issues or not. You can imagine the box as saying: "If you see this box in a store, it's because we have 'issues' with your country as a whole." Frankly, I hope people are offended and swear off MS entirely.
Viva Linux!
it seems like they've already been selling this in the US for a few years
Now I understand why /. has this horrible color scheme.
Just think of the fun when some spy/scum/Gator/Clariaware attaches itself. (A number would count under IE, some seperately.) Some of them would probably be trapped in tight loops trying to spawn seperate programs and failing.
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
I think the law that most people are going to be following in this particular instance is the law of natural selection. I've not gone computer shopping in China, Cambodia or Vietnam, but I have a strong suspicion that the piracy is happening at the comp-u-shop. I submit to you all that this isn't about consumers at all. This is about Microsoft being able to tell 3rd world governments (and the US Gov't) that "we're doing our part" by making a cheap version available, now do your part by cracking down on the piracy. Expect this version of Windows to be followed by some serious bribery/lobbying for stronger IP enforcement in the 3rd world.
The "Hobbled Version has" been around for years. Here is what my use has been like. If you try to run more than 3 programs, the OS grinds to a near hault, and often crashes. If you badmouth MS at any point, the machine restarts causing you to lose anything you didn't save. The OS is so hobbled, I am always getting messages when on the internet about being insecure, so I click them all. That doesn't seem to help, so I had better click some more. Oh yeah, and the OS now decided that my '88 Chevy Cavilier is no longer compatable, so I have to buy a new Ford. It is very proprietary.
You remember: MSIE is part of the OS, and as such does not count as an application!
But what if you have Quick-Time resident, Norton-Anti-Virus and the Zone-Labs firewall running? Will you be able to start any additional program?
How can this be a good idea? This program is crippleware? How do they expect it to compete with linux or pirated windows? 3 programs only? after a virus program that leaves two. This boggles the mind. It crippels the network services which is one of the keypoints of Linux.
I keep thinking it's like watching a Histroy Channel show on the last days of Hitler, when his military strategy just went off the deep end.
500 dollar reward for tip(s) leading to the arrest of the person(s) who stole my sig.
that is exactly the point.
If microsoft CAN put out a cheap version of windows, no matter how crippled, then at least *some* people will buy it, and instead of getting $0.00 * 0 revenue from that country, they get $small_amount * x customers.
However, by limiting the functionality, people in the more developed (read: stupid idiots for paying so much) countries which actually are forced to buy the full sized version will not look on this and say "Hey MS why cant we get OUR windows cheap".
This kind of cut down OS would appear to me to be perfect for OEM distributers, supply this cut down MS "product" and pay less M$ tax without losing buddy status.
True, noone on the street who knows the difference would touch it with a bargepole, but for the computer newbie this maybe just the price point they are expecting ("ahhh look, I can save $50 by getting xp-lite").
liqbase
I think that all Mozilla developpers should thank Microsoft: thanks to the all-in-one concept in Mozilla with one application you can have a web browser, an email client, IRC client.
Otherwise, users would go mad stopping and starting applications..
I wonder if this is true or if Windows think that Mozilla web browser and email client count for two application?
I bet it runs faster than Windows XP Pro, with all the extra crap pulled out.
My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.
I could care less if Microsoft produced a cut-rate version of their software. I could care less if they give it away. They are a competitor and they have to respond to the market. The market now says "OSs are commodity". Microsoft will continue to capture all the revenue they can from that stream as long as they can. Remember, Microsoft initially wanted to be a computer language company. DOS was going to be the cash cow they relied on to continue their development of assembler, fortran, C, etc.
What pisses me off is that the Thai government is going to HELP Microsoft in spreading the deployment of XP Lite. I know that many Microsoft supporters will chime in about Munich's recent decision to move forward with Linux. This is different than a government making a purchasing decision for themselves and coming up with XP or Linux as the OS choice. Instead, the Thai government is helping with the deployment in non-government settings.
Nothing annoys me more than corporate welfare. The Thai government is supporting one of the richest companies in the world.
Fuck you Microsoft.
"Rocky Rococo, at your cervix!"
FROM:Bill Gates
TO: MicroSoft Asia
Subject: Linux/Piracy in Asia
DAMMIT! Re-arrange those deck chairs FASTER!
And tell the band to play 'Nearer my God to Thee' LOUDER!
Guaranteed! This comment 100% Anthrax free!
...look at a simple price/volume curve. With one price/volume combination, there's either a) a lot of the market you don't reach (too costly) or b) a lot of the mark-up you don't reach (customers willing to pay more).
The trouble is to prevent resale and competing with yourself (via parallell imports etc.) Basicly, if you could sell for $2 in Asia, $15 in the US, $18 in the EU, how do you prevent the asians from reselling it? MPAA did it with the region coding. Microsoft tries crippleware.
It is the same old story all over again. They don't expect pirates to buy this. They expect those that "need" a legally licenced version to go with this, because their users are already trained so well on Windows.
In Asia, this is more about moving businesses from "Yes, I know we NEED a legal licence, but no matter how you bend it we can't come up with that kind of cash." to "We'll take it, just so we have a legal licence."
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Let's examine this a little bit. Microsoft releases a partial version of a (no flames, please) halfway decent OS. Sooner or later consumers of this cut down product are going to want the full thing. They're going to want the full featured product. They have three choices;
1. Upgrade. We've already acknowledged that these areas are poor, which means they have a limited cash flow. If they weren't willing to pay for the full blown product before, do you think they're going to be more likely to pay AGAIN? I don't think so which leads us to
2. Piracy. This is the real reason this product is even available. Cracked CD Keys, reg hacks that allow Win Update regardless. I think this move is going to INCREASE piracy. More users. More users wanting more.
3. Move to Linux. If you are going to shell out some money anyway - why not buy a retail linux distro. You get better support and a full blown product. Not enough $$ to cough up fiddy bucks for a retail copy? Download that mother for free!
I think MS had a few objectives that this product was supposed to accomplish. I think it won't make as big of an impact as they expect.
And don't forget, the people selling those copies are in business. They aren't doing it to be leet or because it's cool.
I was raised on the command line, bitch
"Nemo me impune lacesset"
I ... see ... THREE .... lights!!
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
Perhaps Linux could gain market share as well if it had a starter version that had "limited networking", "limited to low-res graphics" and no more than "three applications".
With innovations like those, it's no wonder MSFT stays so far ahead. Someone should get working on such a distro to stay competitive (unless MSFT patented the idea of an OS that can only run 3 apps, of course).
Think about it. They release crippled XP. There will quickly be a crack or patch to turn crippled XP into full XP. People buy crippled XP and apply patch or crack, smiling because they didn't pay for full XP. MS gets some change and market share. MS doesn't care about about profits today. They are more concerned with catching the emerging markets in Asia, Africa, and South America. This will lead to HUGE profits for years down the line.
I could be wrong.
Not bloody likely!
Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day. Teach him to fish and he'll wipe out the species.
Oh, wait...
"With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine." -- RFC 1925
A while ago, I had to look into the Windows VMM to try and explain some odd behaviour we were seeing with two large applications. Now Windows NT/2K/XP will multitask several applications just as well as Linux, BSD, Solaris etc. but the VMM has some significant shortcomings (which along with other Windows shortcomings - such as a lack of good command line tools with the default install - which make it inappropriate as a server).
The trimmer (the part of the Windows VMM which reduces a program's in RAM working set, writing it out to the swap space) *only* looks at pages pointed to by the TLB (if I remember right). The TLB - translation lookaside buffer - is a small cache of PTEs on the processor (page table entries - the things which tell the kernel where 4K pages of virtual memory are at the moment. The TLB just gives you very fast access to a small number of PTEs - it's essentially a cache). IIRC, the TLB has room for 64 PTEs, so the Windows trimmer only ever looks at 64 pages or memory for candidates to write to swap. The trimmer (in the grand scheme of things) doesn't run very often - once every few seconds IIRC.
This normally isn't a big deal. However, servers often have a couple of processes using a lot of virtual memory. Sometimes, you can get the situation where you've got a big process with a large working set - many megabytes - possibly a high percentage of physical RAM, even on a modern machine. This big process might not be very busy - it might not be using much CPU at all. Indeed, it might not even be using many of the pages currently loaded into physical RAM.
Then another process comes along, wanting lots of memory. The trimmer SHOULD have started writing unused bits of the first big process out a long time ago. But guess what - the first big process has been touching pages that the TLB points to frequently, even if it hasn't touched the other 99% of pages loaded into physical RAM. Because the trimmer only looks at the TLB for pages to swap out...it never swaps out ANY of the large process despite the fact most of its pages haven't been touched in maybe days.
So the second big process wants to use up a gob of RAM, and really wants to do things with it. Except it ends up thrashing in and out of swap, because the first big process isn't getting swapped out ever.
This is quite easy to demonstrate if you write a short C program to allocate a bunch of RAM and regularly touch a small subset of its pages - it'll never get swapped out even when another program comes along wanting lots of memory. Whilst we were figuring out what the problem was with our two big processes, I actually did this to prove what I reckoned from reading the book about the NT VMM.
Even early Linux and BSD kernels of the same vintage as Windows NT 4.0 were much better with things like this (and you could look at the source of the VMM rather than taking some book's word for it, and having to write programs to test your theories). I've not tried this on Win2K or WinXP, but I'm betting the VMM still works the same way.
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
No Windows XP (Lite) for India. http://www.techtree.com/techtree/jsp/showstory.jsp ?storyid=53490/
The important thing is not to stop questioning --Albert Einstein.
Hahahaha... haha.. heh. Welcome to 1999.
Not exactly. The Windows CEMENT image refers to Windows ME, which wasn't first published until late 2000. In fact, the image was Last Modified in January 2001.
They should've done something simple, like limit the Starter Edition to accessing 256MB RAM and 40GB HDD space. That would give people a way to see how Windows really works, but give them grounds for upgrading the OS when they upgrade their system.
Imagine: "We have detected a 160GB hard drive on your system. In order to use the full power of your computer, we recommend that you upgrade your software. Would you like to unlock the full power of Windows XP Home Edition for only RS3000?"
Then they could upgrade right online. Or if they don't have credit, walk down to the store and buy an XPHE serial number (hopefully) without having to reinstall their entire system. And MS needn't worry about KeyGens. The fact that the person has bought XP Starter in the first place means they're probably looking to be honest.
There are two kinds of people: 1) those who start arrays with one and 1) those who start them with zero.
Microsoft could count IE as "part of the operating system" again. Then who would run any alternate browser if it counted against the 3 application limit and IE didn't?
Couple of things.
Mushrooms will not come up on most drug tests. (Wouldn't matter if they tested or not)
Mushrooms generally bring out the altruism in people - and hi-res colors. (No shrooming developer would EVER limit graphics, or do things like develop crippled software)
I can't believe the Redmond drug of choice would be 'shrooms, I think it is just good 'ol American crack - which supports your point - obviously they don't do drug tests.
ymmv
Do adware and spyware count?