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Your Right to Travel Anonymously: Not Dead Yet
ChiralSoftware writes "Remember John Gilmore's fight to be able to travel on commercial airlines without having to show ID? It has dropped out of the news for a while, but now it appears that the fight is continuing. I remember in the 80s we used to make jokes about Soviet citizens being asked "show me your papers" and needing internal passports to travel in their own country. Now we need internal passports to travel in our country. How did this happen? The requirement to show ID for flying on commercial passenger flights started in 1996, in response to the crash of TWA Flight 800. This crash was very likely caused by a mechanical failure. How showing ID to board a plane prevents mechanical failures is left as an exercise to the reader. How mandatory ID even prevents terrorist attacks is also not clear to me; all the 9/11 hijackers had valid government-issued ID. I hope the courts don't wimp out on this fight."
You wonder why?
;-)
Two words: PatrIDiot Act
Governments are more interested in how much more power they can get their hands on, rather than what's actually best for the people.
What's best for the people is only important in the last few months before an election - and only then if the issue is a truly popular one and you wouldn't know how to twist it.
[Watch the BBC classic comedy series of "Yes, Minister" and "Yes, Prime Minister" for some *really* neat insight into politics...
I honestly don't see us being able to travel san id ever again. Losing freedoms seems to be a one way street.
However, a government can never take away your rights, they can only chose to not honor them.
I suspect it is for two main reasons: to help identify the corpses and in the case of fake IDs, to provide a starting point for the police to investigate.
I agree though, it does nothing to improve safety.
Stick Men
How mandatory ID even prevents terrorist attacks is also not clear to me
It probably doesn't, but i imagine it helps to identify the passengers in case of a crash.
Some airlines require ID for domestic flights in the UK. One theory is that they want to stop people from buying lots of cheap "£1" tickets uses by the airline as a marketing ploy and then selling them on to random people for a profit. Rynair is an example.
I know /.ers tend to believe there is a conspiracy behind every bush, but there isn't in this case. The requirement (and the reason you can't change seats *after* boarding an airplane) is purely (as another said) to identify the corpses. Its for the insurance companies and pending lawsuits etc. It has *nothing* to do with the Patriot Act, your removal of civil liberties or anything else.
Karma: Neutered
Funny thing, when we in eastern europe start loosing papers, you guys just begin to get some more.
:)
I don't like what I see day by day, that people just have to give up a bit more freedom to ascertain "safety" (baah). Where I have lived most of my life, you could go nowhere without papers, let alone fly (god forbid).
Hopefully you guys won't loose too much and hopefully we will get some more and then we could meet half ways up
I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
Vote with your wallet. I don't fly unless absolutely positively there is no other way to get to there from here in a reasonable time frame. Otherwise, I avoid airports. They consume my time and have wasteful, feelgood 'security measures' which actually provide no security at all.
The last straw for me was having my shoes searched three times on the way to a plane. I was wearing a pair of sneakers. No metal in there.
Government mandated security measures in airports are geared to one goal, and one goal only - maintaining the status quo in the airline industry. It's an attempt to construct a valid excuse for the next hijacking. "After all, we made you show ID and confiscated your 3/4" long insulin needles, don't blame us."
Security professionals my ass, they don't have a chance in hell of catching a committed hijacker either before 9/11 or now. Get people used to that idea and stop with the stupid 'security' crap. You can also die on your morning commute to a truck driver snorting crank. Get a grip, death is all around us. You could drop dead reading this post. Really.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
Well people like to say it is security, but I think it is more towards financial security. When ever there is an accident and people unfortunately die. There is the issue of notifying the victims family to inform them of their death. And the families gets the insurance money from the airline, as well other donations from generous people. With all this money moving around after the accident you need some method of making sure the family saying that their Brother and Husband died actually was on the plane. Because there are a lot of unscrupulous people who will report that a person had died on the plane to collect the insurance money and worse collect some donations from kind citizens. Besides this person who "Died" in the air plane may had an alternative method of wanting to get off the records of police. So there is a air plane explosion were there was no survivors and everyone was vaporized, just get some family to say that you were on the plane you are labeled dead. And police are no longer looking for you, and your family gets some extra cash that they might push your way.
I Find that there is often 3 reasons why people do something.
1. The reason they promote it. (It is good for security!)
2. The reason why they care about it. (It was save me a lot of money)
3. Suff they dont want to tell. (This could be use to track anyone.)
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
ID is now required so that airlines can cross-check against the politcally-motivated, secret, error-ridden watch lists of people who are from unpopular countries filled with little brown people.
Remove the caps and hold to a mirror.
For some reason or other, items such as nail files and scissors, screwdrivers, your trusty leatherman, even pieces of common cutlery only suited for cutting butter are stricly verboten to carry onto commercial airliners. However, what sort of security is this supposed to provide?
I just flew from the UK two nights ago, and in the tax-free area after the security control, you are able to purchase D-cell maglites. As those in the know would tell you, the most dangerous part of a knife for use in close combat is not the blade, but the handle. Applied to the head of the adversary it is more likely to be deadly than the blade applied to the torso. Same thing with a maglite or any other object of similar hardlyness for that matter.
A highly motivated would-be hijacker could easily find similar makeshift weaponry that would be just as effective as knives or nail-files. In fact, the easiest of all would be simple social engineering; i.e. claiming that there was a bomb onboard and that an unidentified accomplice would set it off if certain conditions are not met would probably allow a hijacker to meet his requirements with little or no danger of being apprehended before the plane was airborne.
So why are we being hassled to such a ridiculous extent in airports? Probably so that most passengers will be lulled into a sense of security as well as making the task of airline hijacking seem much more complicated to the casual hijacker seeking escape from a hostile regime, political attention, quick cash, or some other common reason. The dedicated terrorist would likely find a way around anyway.
-- Buzh
There is just too much chance of 1 person being able to cause harm to a large number of other people
*/me checks list*:
Intention to cause destruction, check;
plastique, check;
evil plans, check;
fake ID - oh bugger, there's no way I'll carry that off. Perhaps I'll stay home and water the roses instead.
It's called the illusion of security - insert Ben Franklin quote here. It does not solve any of the issues that lead the one or two to cause, or attempt to cause, harm. If we tried a little harder to understand or even address the causes, we wouldn't be in this mess now.
You have to show ID to check out a library book. Just carry your drivers licence and relax!
The FAA has always be a bit on the over cautios side. But the result is the safest form of travel (if not the most cramped) in the world.
I don't know if having to flash ID is quite comprable to having to file with Moscow to travel between cities.
I would rather be ashes than dust!
Seriously, you've never been on a plane where you couldn't switch seats after you sat down? My wife and I travel and when our seats are separated, people usually are very willing to swap seats to put us closer.
I've also flown internationally where there was so many empty seats that we were able to move around and get our own row (in some cases).
Plus, have you ever been to a plane crash? It's not like everyone stays in their seats.
So, if you've got better information, share it. But your vague assurance that it's just for lawsuits is bs.
My father is a blogger.
Bruce Scheneier calls this "Security Theatre".
...richie - It is a good day to code.
You've spotted the reason for all this; it's to prevent a trade in non-transferrable tickets. As well as absurd RyanAir offers, returns cost about the same as singles everywhere, so they want to prevent a trade in return-leg tickets. And of course they want to do it for 'security reasons' so the inconvenience isn't their fault and is all for your benefit.
Of course it doesn't really affect security.
In soviet russia stale jokes recycle you!
I just checked mine and I can't find the article on the right to board a commercial airliner without proving you are who you say you are. No one is being kept from traveling anonymously, there are still bicycles, buses, Segways, as a passenger in a car, oh, and your feet, heck, you can even charter a private plane without getting your ID checked. You know, honestly if there was an airline that didn't check your ID before boarding I and I am sure most travelers would avoid them at all cost. If I am going to be trapped in aluminum can 33,000 feet in the air I would like some very basic assurance that there was at least an attempt to check that everyone else on the flight is on the level and that dangerous people that wish to board the flight with me were at least inconvenienced a little bit.
Last I checked, every car I've ever driven or ridden in has had plate identifying it, and many blacks in this country have dealt with cops pulling them over IN CARS for no reason other than their skin color for many years. They ask for ID every time they do, but the car had some form of ID on it anyway.
This isn't new, it's just happening on planes to white people. You are about 100 years too late to stop it.
Who's there?
Zee German Inspector.
The German Inspector w.....
I AM ZEE ONE ASKING ZEE QVESTIONS HERE!!!!
Insert appropriate agency personnel for the inspector.
"Want in one hand and spit in the other and see which one fills up first." - My Dad
If they required ID to fly in a private plane, or ride as a passenger in a auto, I would bitch very loudly.
Which are the public planes?
While the airports may now require ID, it's primarily for show. In the 6 round trip flights and ID checked 12 times, not once did my ID match my flight information and not once did anyone even question anything.
I generally leave it up to friends to book my flights because I don't care what airline/airport I fly into and out of but they do. So for a wedding in North Carolina in 1999, the friend put down "Crackpipe Johnny" as my name while booking. I chuckled until we actually got to the airport because I didn't know how they'd react. Instead of showing my ID, I showed my Zippo which had Crackpipe Johnny emblazoned on it. "Ok sir, go right through."
Since then it's been a running joke and even post-9/11 Crackpipe Johnny has had no problem booking a flight or boarding a plane.
I wouldn't recommend trying this, but until someone tells me to stop doing so, I will continue to do so. Just because someone says something is so (in this case mandatory ID carrying) isn't reason to freak out.
There is just too much chance of 1 person being able to cause harm to a large number of other people.
You don't need an airliner to kill a couple of hundred people. A truck filled with ammonium nitrate does just fine. You can get close with a bunch of explosives guns on your person, as is demonstrated in Israel on a regular basis.
And before you jump in with the "almost 3000" figure from 9/11, that was a one-time event. Airline passengers are never going to sit still for a hijacking again. The largest possible loss of life is still the passengers plus whoever the airplane accidentally lands on when it crashes.
Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!
If you have to present ID that matches the name on the ticket then you cannot resell the ticket. It used to be the case that people would resell tickets they couldn't use. Now, depending on the type of ticket you didn't use, your money is either gone, locked in an airline account with one year to spend it on another ticket, back in your hands less 25%, or some other such "arrangement".
The airlines fight tooth and nail to prevent the expense of new "security" measures. If one is accepted it usually means that someone, somewhere is making solid profit on the scheme.
It is ironic that many slashdotters work in information systems, yet they are anxious about identity systems.
I think that should tell you all you need to know about the security and reliability of databases, shouldn't it? If a "rocket scientist" tells you he wouldn't fly on a rocket, would you suit up and climb aboard?
As for databases, all of them have a mechanism for automatically generating a unique key for a record. There's no technical reason that different databases need the same key, so that part's a red herring.
"How did this happen?"
Read any slashdot thread about ID cards, biometrics and the new passports they are trying to issue. Some of the people who post here, who really should know better because they can READ, are aplolgists for all of these techniques and technologies.
The number of times that I have read "i dont have a problem with it as long as"...that is how we have arrived at this juncture; people who should know better are apathetic, compliant or simply asleep. Then you have the morons who whip out the "Tin Hat" jibe whenever someone posts that a Totalitarian state is being built right in front of your eyes; they are also a part of the reason why these measures can be introduced without even a fight.
That question is really quite astonishing; "how we got here" is right in front of you, and has been for three years. It isnt too late to turn it all around; the "joined up government" isnt joined up yet. If you are not willing to use this place to solve the problem (and by the tone of this question, I am presuming that you DO think its a bad thing) then don't even ask; its completely infuriating.
By "use this place" I mean consistently promote the FIPR, Privacy International, No2ID and the other organizations that are trying to orgainze resistance to these measures both in USUK.
If you are not willing to do this, then accept what is being done to you and your country quietly. This should be one of the loudest places screaming against these measures, not somewhere where once in a while, we get a single stunned question.
ATH0 Bitcoin: 1DnwFLXczVZV8kLJbMYoheUrpqHesjxrSi
Given the "free speech zones" (a cage within a cage surrounded by barbed wire at the DNC, the "no-protest" areas, and the arrests of people with unpopular opinions), as well as fully tamper-tolerant electronic voting machines, your options are getting narrower.
"Knowing who is present on board internally guided flying bombs might be helpful in that struggle."
In what way?
Stop being vaguely theoretical. Follow your thought process through and show us how it helps.
On 9/11, we knew and know everybody who was on board. And it helps how?
In fact, it turns our the government knew these people were trouble, knew they got on board, and it didn't help.
How does tracking my movements within my own country help in this struggle?
You don't. Not even with a "simple ID check."
I'm sure lots of people here have similar stories, but once upon a time during my wild youth, my ID said my name was tuxina (as opposed to tuxette) and the year of birth indicated that I was old enough to buy alcoholic drinks. During a bust of a bar that was serving "minors," a cop looked at my tuxina ID and gave it back to me. So cops, bouncers, barkeeps, etc couldn't tell it was fake. I could have easily travelled on an airplane using that ID.
People say I'm crazy, I got diamonds on the soles of my shoes...
I think a lot of people have forgotten 1789. Doesn't "Department of Homeland Security" sound a lot like "Committee of Public Safety?"
John Sauter (J_Sauter@Empire.Net)
While there are lots of things terrorists may do on a plane, to f*ck is not one of those things I'd expect them to do there.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
Privacy is becoming much more important in the age of identity theft. I went around with a cell phone provider on a service quote because I wouldn't give them my social security number. I tried to explain to them if I'm not claiming income from them, they don't get my social security number. First they said it was the law but once I questioned them about which law they backed off to it being company policy. The dentist office tried to claim the insurance company requires it, but all they really need is your group policy number and employee ID.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
I recently travelled on a plane chartered by the Canadian military from Ottawa Ontario to US Army base in Grayling Michigan. Every one on the plane was a member of the Canadian forces, we all wore our uniforms. During the pre-flight 'security' we were told to submit our military ID's, remove all metallic objects from out pockets, our berets and our boots. Imagine 30 soldiers and officers stripped of jackets, boots and headdress waiting in line to a security check point manned by pimply 17 year olds and couple of fossils passing their time between retirement and death. I think I can speak for everyone when I say that we never felt more humiliated. It boggles the mind that someone will do this to our guys many of which are veterans who proved their sense of duty and honour under fire. It seems that we are all terrorists until proven innocent.
Do not look into the laser with remaining eye.
No, you didn't.
Amendment IX says that "Just because we've enumerated these rights does not mean that we have enumerated all the rights." It does not say "Anything we didn't mention is a right of the people." Amendment X is irrelevant -- it deals with the powers of the federal government, not with the rights of the people.
The problems is this -- the Constitution, as amended....
1) Does not say that there is a right to privacy (no mention)
2) Does not say that there cannot be a right to privacy. (Amendment IX)
Therefore, the only conclusion that can be drawn from the Constitution is:
C) There may, or may not be, a right to privacy.
People always assume that Amendment IX automatically grants any right they wish. This is wrong. It just prevents the courts from automatically denying a right because it wasn't listed. The courts *can* deny that rights exist, but need to do so based on the body of law -- of which the Constitution is *only* a part. It's the supreme part, but it is not the whole body of law.
The right of privacy has come about only through judicial and legislative action -- and may well go away from that same action.
Ceci n'est pas une sig.
I have to show a government-issued ID to buy beer. This is a travesty! The government is spying on my beer-buying habits! It's not fair! Wahwahwah.
The Democrats generally want to ban them all. The Republicans want to ban some of them, and make you register all the rest. They're both wrong. Guns shouldn't have to be banned OR registered. With gun registration, whose doors do you think the martial law stormtroopers are going to knock in first?
With gun registration, whose doors do you think the martial law stormtroopers are going to knock in first?
I love this argument against registration. I don't personally own a firearm, but have plenty of family members who hunt, target practice, etc. and none of them- even the NRA lifers- has ever made this argument to me (granted, it has never come up)
This argument is made by the NRA in their propaganda arguing against gun registration. The same propaganda that claims that criminals should have the right to carry guns even if their rights have not been restored and that those same criminals have a fifth amendment argument against registering their firearms and so such a law (registration) is unconstitutional.
The same NRA keeps their membership list secret so the government can't just get the list and break down the gun owners' doors- just don't forget to pay the annual dues, non-members don't get the same 'protection'.
But truthfully if it came down to it, wouldn't the government go door to door to remove our rights and our guns?
Last month, while travelling to Amsterdam my briefcase was stolen at the airport and I lost all my ID. Everything. Money, Credit cards, driver's license, passports, social insurance card, tickets - everything.
It was an eye-opener. NO-ONE can do anything for you. Amex ($400 a year platinum card with "concierge service") would not send me a new card because I had no ID. The cops would not initially write a report because you need to show ID. A new passport at the Canadian embassy was very difficult when you have no ID and have lost your citizenship certificate as well (though they were helpful). Try to check into a hotel without credit cards or ID - it cannot be done. Try to rent a car - same. Try to buy lunch. Nope. If I had not had a support network in place (relatives living there) I would have slept in the street.
The moral of all this: nice to have ID at the basis of everything, but just wait until you slip off the road.
Not sure anyone would want to go through what I went through in that week. Before you say "normal people should have nothing to fear from having to show ID" - wait until you lose it.
---
BDOS ERR ON A:>
We are born to our position in society, and from there we have only the rights our leaders see fit to grant us.
I must disagree. Rights themselves exist regardless of the whims of one's leaders; they are inalienable. However, the set of rights you might actually be able to exercise are very much dependent on the leaders.
It might seem like a trivial distinction. Who cares if you still have rights if you are in no position to use them? Actually, it makes a big difference. If governments grant and take away rights at will, who can say if they are just or unjust in doing so? One could not claim something like slavery is wrong -- slaves have no rights, so nobody could possibly infringe on those rights.
On the other hand, if rights are an innate part of the human condition, one can easily discern good government from bad by looking at what rights people have that are being repressed. The goal then is to minimize the dichotomy between the rights people are born with and the rights they are actually free to exercise.
Alex Jones. He's a bitter pill at first, but once you realize he backs up 100% of what he says with public, mainstream news sources, you can't help but know he's right.
Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle.
Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Norvell (June 11, 1807)
You can't take the sky from me...
It's nothing of the sort. The purpose of a driver's license is not track your whereabouts, it's a license to drive. When you pull out of your driveway and go to work, is there somebody waiting there to check your ID and ask where you are going?
Then again, this could come in handy. I think I'm going to tell my boss that I have a right to make over $200,000 a year.
I love this type of argument -- I call it the "Hey, let's draw a completely stupid and unjustified analogy and hope the other guy just doesn't notice" method.
Think of it like pain. Each person has a different threshold for pain. There are some things which one person barely feels at all, which another person would experience as terrible pain.
Tolerance for intrusions into our private lives is also a variable, like tolerance for pain. Some of us guard our privacy quite closely, while others seem willing to publish all the details of their most private thoughts right out in public (witness LiveJournal).
You're simply one of the people with a very high tolerance for privacy intrusion. The problem is, right now the entire country is on Privacy Morphine from the 9/11 attacks and the events in Iraq. It's much easier to buy the line of bullshit that we must give up more and more rights in exchange for protection against threats like that.
As any drug user can tell you, it's really stupid to make important decisions while doped, and here we are, the United States, making the decision to toss away all the things we enjoy about our lives in exchange for barely any real security at all. And one day I think you'll hit that threshold where you suddenly realize "I can't tolerate this level of government intrusion," but by then it will be too late. The drugs the United States is taking are some strong ones, and the kinds of decisions that are being made are not the kind that can easily be backed out of.
You don't live in California then.
The SKS was declared legal and the California Department of Justice sent out letters saying it was fine. Later they changed their mind and arrested & charged people with felonies for having one. How did they know who had them? A registration list.
Even people who turned over the gun where threatened with a felony charge. Sure, you have a letter from DoJ saying it's legal, but ooops, it's now a felony.
riding round the world on an old motorcycle
How mandatory ID even prevents terrorist attacks is also not clear to me; all the 9/11 hijackers had valid government-issued ID.
Showing ID does nothing to enhance security. We know that IDs can be easily faked, or secured by bribing officials, and that having a valid ID does not prove that you wont do something bad. The problem is that for this to enhance security, the airlines need an "I will not do something bad" card to determine the intentions of their passengers. ID cards are not it.
The airlines put on this theatre though, since it solves a business problem of theirs. Namely, it prevents people from reselling tickets. If you have to show ID to get on a plane, and that ID has to match the name on the ticket, you can't buy a ticket from someone who doesn't want it anymore. Therefore, you have to buy a new ticket from the airline, so the airline gets more revenue. So, the airlines use ID checks to ensure that tickets can't be resold, and they explain it to the public as "enhancing security" which it isn't.