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Training Nurses With Virtual Veins
meganthom writes "UK Haptics is developing a virtual hand to help nurses learn how to draw blood and put in IVs in a realistic manner. Though plastic models are currently used, these do not give new nurses the 'feel' for how much pressure to apply to the needle, and they cannot alert the nurse about pain. The system currently under development, which uses haptics, would make the learning experience considerably more realistic, even telling the nurse when too much pressure was applied."
Maybe now my dentist can learn how to inject novocaine without stabbing me painfully 6 times :) (I just had $6k of dental work done... :( )
Ads? What ads?
It's simple, you just take a nice red Sharpie....
My wife had a plant safety class where they learned CPR from a paramedic who specializes in training. She had tattoed instructions on her arm how to do CPR, with an X on her wrist saying "Check here for pulse" and an X on her chest over her heart saying "Push here"
:)
People should come with operating instructions
My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.
Last time I had blood taken, they let the trainee practice on my arm. She managed to spear through a major vein a few times, but never actually got in there. After making that vein completely useless, the head nurse came over and tried on the other arm. The trainee was still shaking, I'm not sure if she was nervous or just a shaker.
TallGreen CMS hosting
I just gave blood yesterday and volunteered to be the guinea pig for a new trainee. I was her first human stick!
(She did great, but nevertheless, I would have felt better if she could have trained with one of these first.)
Kinda like realdoll for nurses, isn't it?
*grin*
Free XBox, PS2
Effective now (at least in California) nurses (and other workers in similar fields) are excempt from receiving overtime, which basically means that when one has to work a 12 hour shift because of high demand, that person receives 12 hours of standard pay.
The governments answer to those affected, is the suggestion that they join unions, which can apparently remove that burden and credit hard working medical personal the wages they deserve.
to develop a virtual nurse that can draw blood without a) missing the vein and b) overpuncturing? It seems like the precision of a machine (in a hospital setting at least, field nurses should obviously be able to draw blood wherever, whenever) would be far superior to a human. Of course, the cost may be prohibitive, but when has that ever stopped the medical industry in the past?
I swear, I looked like a total friggin' addict. I heard to wear sweaters to keep that crap covered up on my arms for like 2 years.
Apparently, citrus fruits make a good replacement for human veins. She spent a lot of time practicing on oranges, grapefruits and whatnot.
I hope, for all husbands and roommates everywhere, that these come out soon and that they're very very cheap.
-- "A chicken is an egg's way of making another egg."
I almost had the first post, but I was too busy using the virtual hand to give myself a virtual hand jo^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hback massage....
Steal This Sig
in related news: the nurses training with the virtual veins become virtual junkies and have to go to virtual rehab.
next.
anime+manga together at last.. in real time.
My mother is a nurse. This will NEVER be as cheap, or as realistic, as having the students practice on each other, like she did in medical school.
I realized this after taking a death and dying class a little while ago, but I almost always misread "nurses" as "ncurses", at least initially. If somebody wants to make a "Top ten signs you've read too many Unix docs", I'd estimate this would be about #4.
you gotta hand it to them, this is pretty cool use of technology.
Moo.
As a retired paramedic who has stuck needles into literally thousands of veins, I can tell you that this kind of tool is of limited value. Even if they can exactly mimic the tactile sensations of a needle penetrating skin and then entering a vein, that's only part of the issue. A much bigger obstacle to be overcome is the social indoctrination that you don't go around stabbing people and making them bleed. Once most nursing/medical/paramedic students learn to just DO IT, their problems drop way off.
The traditional training method of having students practice on each other has a lot to reccommend it as a means of overcoming such reluctance. Anyway, a practice model would only get used in class a few times per student, and then they will be out assaulting real patients anyway. Increased training costs for limited benefit.
Having personally had nurses break off two needles in my arm, having one hit an artery instead of a vein, and having more than one dig around with the needle half in arm trying to find the danged vein... teaching them to do it right without human sacrafice is a blessing.
Prior to the operation, local anesthetic was of course applied on the nasal wall. Incidentally, this last procedure was also conducted with a damn long needle shoved straight up my nose and it hurt like hell each time they did it. Yes, each time they did it. A trainee tried to do it four times until his supervisor finally took over and applied it successfully.
Fortunately the actual puncturing of the nasal wall was unpleasant (lots of cracking and crunching sounds when the needle is pushed up your nose) but completely painless.
The owls are not what they seem
Every time blood gets drawn from me, they try to use that huge needle that doesn't work. Each time I tell them: "it won't work, use a butterfly." Each time I get stuck 3-4 times before he/she tries a butterfly. (You know, the ones with the tiny needle and a little handle that looks like a...guess.)
Then they always ask how I would know it would work, and I'm helpless to do anything but stare...
Why can't all fpga/microcontroller manufacturers just release free optimizing compilers???
So what's next? The virtual penis and virtual vagina to teach them how to properly insert a catheter into our most precious of orifices with a bit less discomfort? One can only hope...
After the first 20 or so victims you eventually figured out how to avoid leaving that nasty black welt on the inside of their arms (which incidentally also gave the impression they were doing drugs). Do a few hundred or so (myself and 6 other fifth semester students had to process about 2,000 people, including admin aides and misc school workers) and you get pretty good at it. You also develop this uncanny skill at tying the rubber pressure band around people's arms so quickly that they're being pricked faster than they can yell "HOLY CRAP THAT HURTS"
The hardest part was drawing from overweight female students. No veins visible anywhere in the arm. Sometimes we had to draw from a leg or hand vein or weird shit like that. Still, it was fun (hey, I wasn't the one being punctured) and it beat termodynamics lab for sure. We eventually wrapped it up in a couple of weeks and got some school t-shirts for our troubles.
Oh, and here's the obligatory old fart "we had to walk barefoot in the snow uphill (both ways) at 5:00 AM every day to get to school and we liked it" and all that.
by HT Medical (now Immersion Corporation) and Plattsburgh State University?
Yow. I'm as much into pain as the next average guy in San Francisco, but there are parts of my body I'd *still* prefer to not get pierced by anyone other than people who've done a WHOLE BUNCH of them first.
Pardon me while I cross my legs and clench.
This is a field where force feedback VR is truely useful. Not only can it be used for safer training {thou probably more expensive, as another commenter pointed out}, but it makes remote surgery much safer and more practical.
Medical imaging is a field that is still in need of tech advancements. Matching two scans of the same patient is hard to do. I worked on early stages of a project making a 'statistical atlas' of the femur. These are extremely useful but barely developed. Also I've looked into robotic surgeons, and while they look pretty good, their use is not widespread at all.
Then of course there's other uses like gaming {pr0n for some of us^H^Hyou} for this tech. Whats cool is that gaming helps surgeons.
done
Why didn't they just use Thing from The Addams Family? He always seemed willing to lend a helping hand.
boom-cha!
Thanks, I'll be here all week!
d a v e
"Hmmm...upgrades."
old news...
in this most useless of matters no less...phlebotomy...
Perhaps we could give out free virtual vein kits at drug clinics to teach addicts how to properly use a needle. After all, rather than discourage drug use, we give away free needles in many areas in an a sort of "well, they're gonna do it anyway... may as well not spread disease when they do". And in Amsterdam they have designated *usage* areas. Why not teach them how to do it right. I'm mean, after all, its kind of like driving drunk. Most people that've been driving for 10+ years can drive safely while a little buzzed cause they're driving by experience and habit. But a 16 year old after his beer or 3 doesn't have the experience and is more likely to crash. Same, same for the addicts. If they are experienced popping needles while sober, they're less likely to screw it up while under the influence
Please take this with the conservative sarcasm it was intended and not at face value before mod'ing me.
It looks like UK Haptics is just catching up to the Trainspotting crew. They've got a 3-angle view on the DVD of the vein simulator they used for a super close-up shot of Ewan Macgregor dosing himself with heroin.
is that hand in the picture supposed to be human? looks more like a gorilla's fist to me.
... to a virtual girl . Nice of them to think of the Slashdot crew for a change...
I say go the low-cost route and buy them all "Operation". I pay enough for my medical bills already; why should I have to pay more so a nurse can play video games, when she can just as easily try to poke a vibrating guy with a red nose?
That just doesn't sound right.
Oh, yeah! I've been waiting my wholelife for this moment!
Why can't we all just have implants...remember Neo and his IV...looked pretty simple to apply an IV
beside, if we had the head implant, the people with enough bio-RAM might be able to play Doom 10...I mean I mean, doctors may be able to explore and fix issues with our brain
Nuttles,
Saved by Grace
When I learned IV insertion we practiced on a loose-fitting concentric rubber tubes with liquid between them. The inner tube squirmed around about as much as a normal vein.
It's nice to see that they're getting more realistic.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
How a system can measure the pain? Everybody has a different level of tolerance. The only way to learn this is with real subjects.
My experiences have always borne out that nurses were quite good at it.
Well, except for that one at the Bloodmobile a few months back. She should have gotten a job at Abu Ghraib....
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
http://wichita.kumc.edu/support/lab/exam/prostate. html
Heres another nurse training system... at the bottom of the page..
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
While I was in an ICU unit, the doc came by with some students. Since I have nice beefy arms and huge veins (the blood donation folks love me), the doc asked if I minded the students practicing on me.
Well, seeing that the trainees were young and cute, I said "sure" and let them stab me several times. Ok, they did pretty well, probably because their "patient" wasn't freaking out.
-- If god wanted me to have a sig, he'd have given me a sense of humor.
I have a mole on my arm that reads "STAB HERE FOR VEIN". Seriously. Nice and well placed, all they have to do is come close and they'll get a perfect stick.
So this nurse in Indiana screws it up. She stabs THRU the vein. Blood sprays all over the tube. She gets another tube, stabs, misses, sprays again.
after the 5th stick I'm pale white and about to pass out... I get up to leave, and this old, black nurse comes in and says "Honey you sit yourself right down, i'll get it and you won't even know".
I raise my arm to protest, she grabs it and sticks it in one smooth motion, so smooth I never felt the needle.
Man I love that woman.
You either have it or you don't. My wife's an ER nurse. She "starts lines" all the time. Yet there are some nurses working with her in the ER who have many years of experience and still have difficulties starting a line. The truly amazing people are anesthesiologists and anestothists. They seem to "always" be able to start a line.
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
Geez man, I followed that link and now I need to clean water out of my damned keyboard since I was taking a sip at that exact moment. :-P
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
It seems like my multiple physical disabilities make drawing blood a lot harder for trained nurses and doctors because of the ways my veins are even after heating my arms! The most attempts was on 7/23/1998 according to my journal/log/blog entry for 7/27/1998:
At around 6:30 AM or so, I had to change my cloth and get IV shots. This part was not fun. It took about 13 needle shots to find my tiny veins. I have had never gone through this many. Sheesh, the doctors, nurses, and I were all frustrated. I finally got drugged out and passed out. You won't believe where the last shot was done. I still have the holes and broken veins on my body.
Hopefully, nurses and doctors will get some strange vein setup to practice on so next time, I only get one friggin shot!
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
Emit a virtual "Ow, you fucking vampire!" when the trainee screws up?
---
Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
(I read with sigs off.)
The instructions are so context-dependant as to be misleading.
You could be half way through the CPR instructions and suddenly find the foreplay instructions and then you'll be arrested for both trying to revive and fondle accident victims.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
Hmm... Methinks you've posted this before on a different thread.
It'll be realistic enough only when it can blurt "Ow! Shit!", and yank away when they hit a nerve.
licet differant, aequabitur
I was a combat medic in the army and we learned, practiced, and tested on each other (needles, IVs, etc). I don't see why you need to develop these kinds of models when human subjects (the best kind) are readily available. If you can't the sight of blood you should consider a non-medical profession.
I think you've found a new goatse
Seriously. My mom is a professor of nursing, and as such whenever i had to have surgery (bi-lateral arthoscopic knee surgery in this particular case) she would bring all her little nursing studnet to see me.
."
Which isn't so bad right?
Wrong. Not only did they come see me, they got to practice giving IVs. Now, usually the nurses do a great job of this. After years of practice.
Fresh nursing student, are not so good. in fact, the first time they work on a real patient, they are bad. Really bad. Really Really bad. God, i still think of the horrfying bruises and marks those poor students left on me as each one tried, and failed, to put the damn IV in. It went something like this:
NS: "OKay, now clench your fist"
Me: "You sure you know what you're doing?"
NS "Okay now in we go . . hmm the vein seems to have dissapeared"
Me: "Umm . . oooooow"
NS: "Maybe if i dig around for it . .
*roots around in my arm with a needle*
Me: "OOOOOOW! DAMMIT, CUT IT OUT! NEXT!"
NS: "Sorry, its my first time"
Me: "Yeah, i think i figured that out"
Finally one of the real nurses came in, and put it in in one shot.
So . . yeah. This is a good thing. The more a nurse trains on this virtual hand thing, the less people like me have to bleed and get bruised.
Look out honey cause I'm usin' technology
Ain't got time to make no apologies
There is a very obvious difference. Consentual sex between minors harms no-one but the participants. Drug use does not directly harm anyone but the user. Driving drunk may well kill others. Laws against drug use are applying public morals to a private act. Laws against drunk driving are applying public morals to a public act. There is a big difference.
The public should be thankful that she went into a subset of nursing that doesn't require her to poke a needle in someone :)
they wanna learn how to use a needle? roll up your sleeves, baby! i'm just a junkie and i'm proud to say that my needle skillz rawk.
ViVesection (vivisection)
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
I've tested somthing similar to this back in the late nineties. Not sure if it ever was produced or if it is related to this article, but the device gave tactile feedback to a real catheder. Veins could be from a child, middle aged, old person, and my favorite, the heroin addict. The simulator even yelled "ouch" if you poked it too hard. Very cool indeed!
But make sure the needles are clean too. Anyone remember this story?
I used to go to a technical school that offered various vocational training. There was my floor with the computer dept. It was 60% guys. A couple of floors up was the medical / nursing area. All girls.
They had to practice giving shots and such on live human beings. Once they were tired of stabbing each other they would wander down to the geek farm in search of brave young men willing to sacrifice their arms to advance medical science.(i.e. suckers) They figured that just because they were attrctive, dressed like nurses (even through they weren't) and the guys were all loney introverted dorks, they would be able to find lots of willing arms to practice on. They were right.
I fell for this a lot.
As a side note, being stabbed by a girl repeatedly doesn't win you her respect or admiration as much as you might think. Go figure.
--This sig is in beta. Please let us know abut any errors you find.
If the software can tell if the nurse is doing it right, it ought to be able to guide a robot to do it perfect every time.
Force feedback medical simulators are nothing new.
See Here for an existing (and selling) product.
Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. -- Carl Sagan
Textbook example of a lamprey poster. Lamprey posters parasitically latch onto early 5's for an easy ride to Modville, regardless of whether the post has anything remotely to do with the parent. ;-)
Hey, how about giving us laypersons a definition of haptic before you toss such jargon around willy-nilly? According to Merriam-Webster it means:
relating to or based on the sense of touch
-Rich
Stabbing each other in the back, they stab each other's veins... Make one mad, and get speared.
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
If the creator of this thing reads this, tell him to do something about these 3 things becuase since I have to give myself home infusions for a certain condition, I know all about it.
The nurse has applied too much pressure when the needle is sticking out of the other side of your arm.
Just being a mild PITA about grammar.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
I mean, I've never had a /. article make me feel faint before, but..
oh....
*woooze*
needles, ugh. Glad they are making a good training device finally.
Saskboy's blog is good. 9 out of 10 dentists agree.
Wasn't there a study which showed similar thing w/r to human anatomy classes? It showed that doctors trained on plastic corpses were evidently worse prepared than those training on real corpses. Looks like nothing can replace the real experience with human body.
"Long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead." (John Maynard Keynes)
I think some other posts said it right when they mentioned the limited usefulness of this. When I learned to do blood draws it wasn't the finding a vein so much as the fear of hurting someone. I eventually worked nights at an Alzhiemer's ward, and if you can chase a half naked elderly person down and bribe them with ice cream for a blood draw, you can draw blood from anyone after that.
Nothing hides evidence like a stew. -Gus Pratt
Hey im a nurse. Been a nurse fro a few years.
no virtual crap prepares you for the real world. hell classrooms dont prepare you for the real world.
So here I am, getting my iv certification done. I get every stick every time. I come out looking like i was a pro. oh yeah i rock.
i get on the nursing floor.
Know what? sick peoples veins suck ass. you put on this tourniquet you find veins you could drive a semi thru you prep the site you pop the cap off the needleyou line it up and bam, your vein that you so lovingly found is gone. nada.
its the needle effect. veins are like spiders. you go to smash a spider and it runs like hell. veins too run as fast as they can. i dont blame em, if i was a vein i'd run, like hell i want some sharp shiny metal with a plastic catheter over it stabing me.
so heres my point.... there is never ever going to be a replacement for doing it. you can make the machine say thank you sir might i have some more and youre still gonna suck in the real world until you learn that people are all different and you cant expect shit.