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Microsoft Patents sudo

Jimmy O Regan writes "Justin Mason (of SpamAssassin fame) has this blog entry: US Patent 6,775,781, filed by Microsoft, is a patent on the concept of 'a process configured to run under an administrative privilege level' which, based on authorization information 'in a data store', may perform actions at administrative privilege on behalf of a 'user process'."

153 of 663 comments (clear)

  1. Prior Art? by aweraw · · Score: 5, Interesting

    So, I guess the prior art will be easy to show... right?

    --
    5468652047616D65
    1. Re:Prior Art? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Sure, if you have the USD500,000 to field the court case. Most people cave first.

    2. Re:Prior Art? by cbr2702 · · Score: 5, Funny

      How? Everyone knows those Open Sores hippies stole everything anyways.

      --


      This post written under Gentoo-linux with an SCO IP license.
    3. Re:Prior Art? by rubz · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Why would they patent something which has been around for years in the competition's OS? There's no way they can actually patent sudo...not on my watch.

    4. Re:Prior Art? by NanoGator · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Why would they patent something which has been around for years in the competition's OS? There's no way they can actually patent sudo...not on my watch."

      They can patent it just fine, all the USPTO has to do is not notice the similarity. It's when they get to court with somebody about it that the problem actually exists.

      I had to sound like an arrogant ass here, but maybe you should go work for the Patent Office? Not because it'd teach you a lesson, but because it is pretty clear that whoever approves these doesn't understand the area they're in. I mean, look how technical the patent is. Either the patent office picked up on a subtle nuance that makes it different from *nux, or they just didn't connect it with something it does already.

      --
      "Derp de derp."
    5. Re:Prior Art? by hardcode57 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Who needs to prove prior art? Obviousness is also an impediment to a patent. Even if the existing prior art cited here doesn't quite match, the reaction of everyone on this page is that there must be some that does: a fairly good indication that practitioners versed in the art regard the idea as obvious.

    6. Re:Prior Art? by mr_walrus · · Score: 5, Informative

      the University of Waterloo had a similar concept
      with something called "suw"

      basically a su command that allowed authorized individuals to have
      their own root password. the root login account
      itself had unusable password.

      each authorized users suw password was of course kept in
      a "data store" (a private passwd style file)
      and logging of its usage was done to provide an audit
      trail.

      this is at least 16 or more years old.

      -k

    7. Re:Prior Art? by BroncoInCalifornia · · Score: 4, Funny

      Those who do not copy Unix are destined to reinvent it.

      --

      Religion is the main cause of atheism.

    8. Re:Prior Art? by The+Kow · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Let's be fair, if you had to read these at the rate they do at the USPTO, then figure out exactly wtf all this double-talking techno babble means, eventually things would start blending together and crap like this would filter through. I thought it was generally accepted that the main problem is not that the USPTO people don't know what they're doing, it's that 1) the patent process has been turned from a means to protect innovation into a profitable business model, and nobody seems to want to stop it, and 2) the USPTO itself is understaffed.

      --
      Moo
    9. Re:Prior Art? by qtp · · Score: 4, Funny

      Those who do not copy Unix are destined to reinvent it

      badly.

      --
      Read, L
    10. Re:Prior Art? by mbowles · · Score: 5, Funny

      Shouldn't that be, "Those who do not copy Unix are destined to patent it?"

    11. Re:Prior Art? by dnoyeb · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Thats easy to answer. Because companies dont make patents, people do. If MS is giving out bonuses or rewards to people that get patents, then expect the MS employees to try and patent everything under the sun...

      You don't expect the legal department to catch it do you?

    12. Re:Prior Art? by slacker775 · · Score: 5, Informative

      http://www.symark.com/powerbroker.htm Powerbroker is a sudo-like commercial app. It does a means to run as a daemon process in a client-server type environment to allow the configured policy to work between different systems. Googling on it turns up posts from the mid 90's so it's been around for a while.

    13. Re:Prior Art? by PW2 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      More prior art: A co-worker of mine has a working application that runs as a priveleged user and is used to start and stop custom NT services after receiving RPC calls from a client application that we are using so that we don't need permanent admin access to start and stop the services. This was a result of Sarbanes-Oxley -- I miss the good access I had in 1999 when I was the DBA, sysadmin, developer, etc. Now I'm only the developer.

    14. Re:Prior Art? by bit01 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      USPTO itself is understaffed.

      It doesn't matter how well staffed the patent office is. It is humanly impossible for a government office to realistically assess all of human knowledge for prior art. To say otherwise is dishonest.

      More precisely the patent office examiners a liars if they can say with a straight face thay have checked all possible places for prior art on an invention they have never seen before. Only a scientist who has spent a lifetime working in a very narrow area can do this, and even then they make mistakes all the time. It is financially impossible for the patent office to employ a scientist in every narrow area. Just look at their understanding of even one area like software. Absolutely hopeless.

      In any case prior art is a necessary but not sufficient evidence of inventiveness.

      ---

      It's wrong that an intellectual property creator should not be rewarded for their work.
      It's equally wrong that an IP creator should be rewarded too many times for the one piece of work, for exactly the same reasons.
      Reform IP law and stop the M$/RIAA patent/copyright abuse.

    15. Re:Prior Art? by bleckywelcky · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think the USPTO's problem is that they've adopted a default 'innocent until proven guilty' mantra where all patents are valid unless proven otherwise. They need to turn their thinking around and adopt a default 'guilty until proven innocent' mantra where all patents are invalid until sufficient (or a certain amount of) time has been spent or research done to prove otherwise. If a patent application comes in for a supposed "computer/electronic technology" and some guy looks at it for a couple hours (days, weeks, etc), but doesn't know what he's looking at, how can he actually justify that this is a new, unique, novel idea by accepting the application? If a patent reviewer doesn't react with an "ah ha!, now that is interesting" that indicates he/she understands the topic and what is unique about the idea, then it shouldn't be accepted.

    16. Re:Prior Art? by The+Kow · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If a patent reviewer doesn't react with an "ah ha!, now that is interesting" that indicates he/she understands the topic and what is unique about the idea, then it shouldn't be accepted.

      A patent reviewer's immediate grasp of a technology should absolutely *NOT* function as the crux of whether or not a patent is given to an applicant. The fact is, these patents are complex, but even though you may understand them, you still have to go and find out if someone has patented anything similar or identical. That's simply too much work to do in the period of time they're given to do these things, a problem which could be mitigated by proper staffing.

      Additionally, the patent system has grown to encourage frivolous patent applications, meaning the load just increases.

      --
      Moo
    17. Re:Prior Art? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny
      It is humanly impossible for a government office to realistically assess all of human knowledge for prior art. To say otherwise is dishonest.

      They could simply post on /.

    18. Re:Prior Art? by msobkow · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Stop making excuses for the incompetent. We all have to pay for their screwups, and it's about freakin' time they were held accountable.

      Sue them. Sue them for your legal fees, your lost revenue, your lost potential revenue, damage to your corporate image, and anything else you can think of if you get caught in a bogus IP "lawsuit" by some vulture corp because of USPTO incompetence.

      If they can't do the job, don't do it. Let the backlog build up until industry screams and starts pushing for Congress to increase the budget. As long as you push incompetent crap through instead, the funding will never be increased because corporate America does not see just how much damage you're doing with your negligence at the USPTO.

      And believe me, it is emphatically negligance.

      --
      I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    19. Re:Prior Art? by jonbryce · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You could have a period where the public are allowed to submit objections to the patent.

      If someone objects on the basis of prior art, then the patent office could look and see if their complaint was valid or not.

    20. Re:Prior Art? by Halo1 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      You're completely right. And the patent system was never even designed with the idea that it would be possible to assess all possible prior art. The non-obviousness and usefulness requirements are merely filters to take out a number of a priori "known" bad patents. They know they can't get all bad patents out, but the idea is that in the end, the positive effects of the granted "good patents" outweigh the negative effects of the granted "bad patents".

      This is however merely a hypothesis and most certainly not true per definition or because of some economic law. As Fritz Machlup said in the fifties, when he studied the patent system for Congress:

      if we didn't have a patent system, it would be irresponsible to create one; but since we do, it would be irresponsible to get rid of it.
      So what clearly is irresponsible, keeping extending the patent system into fields it was never intended to cover without any economic rationale to back it up, such as mathematics and business methods. The non-obviousness becomes even harder to check (who's going to e.g. data mine all open source software out there to check whether a particular algorithm hasn't been published before), innovation happened just as well before there were software patents etc. And now we even have tons of studies to back up our gut feeling that software patents to more harm than good.

      Therefore, just solving the non-obviousness problem and making patents easier to appeal, or going after some annoying patents like EFF is doing are not real solutions. The problem is the subject matter itself. The actions of the EFF are merely detracting from the real problem, and I would contend it may even do more harm than good. After all, they legitimise the system by saying that only annoying software patents with prior art are bad, while every software patent can be used "to steal IP" from all software authors, by forbidding him to rightfully profit from his copyright (to use a catch phrase of the other camp).

      Someone who publishes something, should never have to worry about patents. The act of publishing should never constitute a patent infringement.

      --
      Donate free food here
    21. Re:Prior Art? by Pharmboy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You could have a period where the public are allowed to submit objections to the patent.

      While your idea makes sense theoretically, in practice there are some serious problems. First, there will several groups that will simply object to every software patent because they are against them as a whole. Second, this means that the patent employee, who is already overburdened, now has to sift through 10 times the paperwork in order to issue a patent.

      The net results would be 10 times the paperwork filed at the patent office, and it would be easier for Big Corporations to file extensive objections than it would for average users. This would make it harder for individuals to file patents, and easier for corporations.

      It would be easier to simply not allow software patents in the first place, and use copyright law to protect them, but this isn't necessarily a great solution either.

      --
      Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
    22. Re:Prior Art? by phrostie · · Score: 2, Funny

      if it is not realistic then they have no business claiming the authority.

      seriously, what is the percentage of invalid patents claimed. what would happen to the medical field if we gave them the out of saying, "well there were just too many organs and slimmy squishy things to find the appendix in time"

      perhaps this is the front that needs to be taken to get software patents reformed.

    23. Re:Prior Art? by DrQu+xum · · Score: 2

      Ummm, Apple?

      That would be mildly amusing (albeit disturbing) if the patent reviewer went home that day, fired up his OS X machine and installed something that asked for his username-and-password...and he then goes "Oh crap. Oh well."

      --
      DrQu+xum: Proof that the lameness filter doesn't work.
    24. Re:Prior Art? by sl4shd0rk · · Score: 2

      > Shouldn't that be, "Those who do not copy Unix are destined to patent it?"

      Those who can innovate, do. Those who cannot, patent.

      --
      Join the Slashcott! Feb 10 thru Feb 17!
    25. Re:Prior Art? by back_pages · · Score: 3, Interesting
      You could have a period where the public are allowed to submit objections to the patent.

      This has been in place for several years. All patent applications are published in a pre-grant publication (PGPub) at most 18 months after they are submitted. This usually means that the application will be published but unexamined for 12-18 months, and usually published and not issued (or finally rejected) for about 24 months.

      There is a section of 35 USC which specifically enables 3rd parties (you) to submit (without editorializing or commenting) pieces of art that you think are applicable. While I haven't poured over this patent, I would have -definitely- looked at UNIX/Linux in excruciating detail while prosecuting it.

      Long story short - there is a system in place where you could have looked at this application while it was pending and submitted UNIX man pages or whatever. The fact is that nobody, nobody, nobody ever does this (except large corporations who pay people to do so against their competitors applications.)

    26. Re:Prior Art? by Sun+Rider · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Most people just won't care. The patent will be enforceable only in the US. Like in many other IP issues the rest of the world will just go their merry way while the US gets yet a little bit more stucked in its legal big company swamp.

    27. Re:Prior Art? by elhedran · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Reform IP law and stop the M$/RIAA patent/copyright abuse.

      My idea is when you patent something, you also submit your expense reports for the time the patent was developed. can't submit the same expenses for more than one patent.

      Then, all license fees are accounted for, and once you have made back 3 times the amount of money you spend in development back in license (net?) then the patent is disolved.

      If you make no money in the first two years, the patent is disolved.

      This way, if its a sit back and sue patent, its stopped because you have to actually license it. and if its a valuable patent, then it will be out of patent and into public domain sooner. and no one can complain that innovators don't get a return on investment.

    28. Re:Prior Art? by yawgnol · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yeah, I think you're right. The US gets a little bit slower every day because of all this patent/copyright warfare. But it's mostly just companies within the US fighting with each other and slowing down innovation and general economic health within America. The US is trying to reach out and impose this structure on the rest of the world, but there is enough sensible resistence out there to make world-wide (submission) adoption highly questionable.

      It's a good point you make.

    29. Re:Prior Art? by ultranova · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I don't get it. How does MS having a patent which could never stand up in court stop programmers from writing their own programs?

      Simple. Microsoft doesn't need to win the lawsuit, only drag it on and force the programmer to use money to pay for his lawyer untill the programmer goes banckrupt.

      That's the problem of a system where everyone pays his own court expenses - it means that whoever has more money can always win through a war of attrition. And a system where the society pays the court expenses simply encourages trivolous lawsuits as a form of free lottery. A system where loser pays doesn't help either, since, again, the poor cannot afford the risk of losing (there's always that risk, no matter how airtight the case may seem).

      A rule of law simply cannot be sustained in a society where greed and ruthlessness are accepted - even admired - emotions and not something shamefull, and where only winning at any cost is considered important. There's an ever-increasing number of people stealing resources, sometimes by abusing the legal system (software patents), sometimes by outright theft (Enron), sometimes by bribing the top officials / representatives (DMCA). It's like a growing army of termites eating a wooden house: a single termite makes negligible damage, easily prepared, but with enough termites the whole house is going to collapse sooner or later.

      Furthermore, as already reported several times on Slashdot, it is impossible to make a program that doesn't infringe on someones patent - so Microsoft will simply use your idea and ignore your patent, and if you complain, slap you with whatever absurd patents of theirs your program breaks, forcing you into a cross-license agreement, after which you will be trampled by their marketing machine.

      Software patents only benefit large corporations, never actual inventors (unless, of course, the inventor happens to own a large software company).

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    30. Re:Prior Art? by emeitner · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Of course, if the citizens of a country decide to ignore a law, the law ceases to exist. Governments such as the one in the US exist only because we(US citizens) allow them to. We are not subjects. We can change the course of nations if we choose to.

      --
      Guru Meditation #6d416769.21610a21
    31. Re:Prior Art? by ArsonSmith · · Score: 2, Funny

      SCO just patented a program that lets a super user run applications as you.

      its called
      suyou

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
  2. Oh, yeah by brilinux · · Score: 5, Funny

    So SU me!

    Probably redundant by now.

    1. Re:Oh, yeah by so+sue+mee · · Score: 3, Funny

      No! So Sue Mee

    2. Re:Oh, yeah by SoSueMe · · Score: 3, Funny

      yEs?

  3. Why do they even try? by halo1982 · · Score: 5, Informative
    A computer such as a network appliance executes an administrative security process configured to run under an administrative privilege level. Having an administrative privilege level, the administrative security process can initiate administrative functions in an operating system function library. A user process executing under a non-administrative privilege level can initiate a particular administrative function that the process would not otherwise be able to initiate by requesting that the administrative security process initiate the function. In response to a request to initiate a particular function from a process with a non-administrative privilege level, the administrative security process determines whether the requesting process is authorized to initiate the particular administrative function based on information accessed in a data store. If the requesting process is authorized, the administrative security process initiates the particular administrative function. In this manner, the administrative security process facilitates access to specific administrative functions for a user process having a privilege level that does not permit the user process to access the administrative functions.

    So of course this is completely unenforcable...I wonder if they'll even try. What is the process to go about for getting this patent revoked?

    1. Re:Why do they even try? by LostCluster · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That seems setup makes sense under Windows, but seems utterly useless under any Unix variant. It's almost as if Microsoft is defensively patenting just to make sure nobody else weasels in and trys to cut them off from a concept they want to use.

    2. Re:Why do they even try? by WindBourne · · Score: 5, Insightful
      So of course this is completely unenforcable...I wonder if they'll even try. What is the process to go about for getting this patent revoked?

      This is not about being unenforcable. This is about having a HUGE cabinet of patents that you can throw at whoever and use to stop them. Now, many of MS's patents are nothing but rip offs. But, if you were hit with more than 1000 patents, just the reading and understanding of them could take a year or two.

      Very scarey

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    3. Re:Why do they even try? by NanoGator · · Score: 2, Informative

      "What is the process to go about for getting this patent revoked?"

      Duplicate the feature, release a product, wait for MS to sue you.

      --
      "Derp de derp."
    4. Re:Why do they even try? by CodeBuster · · Score: 2, Informative

      not really, do you really think that Microsoft is going to waste time and money going after people with all of these patents? of course not. However, they do have a billion dollar cash hoard to protect from every small time company lawyer out there that wants to roll the dice on patent litigation to steal a piece of that pie. IBM does the same thing. These patents are defensive in nature, they are supposed to protect Microsoft from submarine patents and their unscrupulous holders.

  4. Quick! Send in your prior art! by nonregistered · · Score: 5, Funny

    man sudo >/dev/uspto

    1. Re:Quick! Send in your prior art! by Lehk228 · · Score: 5, Funny

      rm -rf /dev/uspto

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
    2. Re:Quick! Send in your prior art! by hpavc · · Score: 2, Funny

      perhaps they could ...

      upsto.gov# ntpdate -b pool.ntp.org ... and get with the times.

      --
      members are seeing something, your seeing an ad
    3. Re:Quick! Send in your prior art! by ArbitraryConstant · · Score: 4, Funny

      No, I doubt you have the permissions for that.

      sudo rm -rf /dev/uspto

      --
      I rarely criticize things I don't care about.
    4. Re:Quick! Send in your prior art! by FooAtWFU · · Score: 5, Funny

      If only. It's more like:
      cat /dev/urandom > /dev/uspto

      --
      The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
    5. Re:Quick! Send in your prior art! by hawkeyeMI · · Score: 5, Funny
      user@host$ diff /dev/urandom /dev/uspto
      user@host$
      --
      Error 404 - Sig Not Found
    6. Re:Quick! Send in your prior art! by roman_mir · · Score: 3, Funny

      the parent found a special case where infinite number of monkeys on infinite number of typewriters appeared to be working for the uspto.

    7. Re:Quick! Send in your prior art! by thephotoman · · Score: 2, Funny

      My vote's for one of the following:

      $ sudo apt-get upgrade upsto.gov

      or

      $ sudo yum update upsto.gov

      --
      Haec merda tauri est. Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.
    8. Re:Quick! Send in your prior art! by Vengie · · Score: 2, Informative
      /dev is the directory commonly used to represent devices. (e.g. /dev/hd0 is hard disk 0)

      There is a distinction between virtual and physical devices. /dev/null is a "null device" -- a device which accepts tons of input but never produces anything.

      so:
      foomachine# echo "abc" | /dev/null

      produces NOTHING, since "abc" is given to /dev/null and /dev/null throws it away. (in lieu of a tty or lpt which would print/output "abc")

      /dev/urandom is a source of randomness........

      /dev/uspto is...well...obvious.

      one poster suggested REPLACING /dev/uspto (the patent office) with randomness ( ... > /dev/uspto)

      Another posted examined how the USPTO and randomness differ (the utility diff):

      # diff x y
      #
      no response from diff means the two files are identical, so this poster succinctly suggests that the uspto is random bullshit.
      --
      When in doubt, parenthesize. At the very least it will let some poor schmuck bounce on the % key in vi. (Larry Wall)
  5. ahem by Neo-Rio-101 · · Score: 2, Funny

    A process configured to run under an administrative privilege level, eh? excuse me a second... ah --- ah---- ahchoooooounixpriorart !

    --
    READY.
    PRINT ""+-0
  6. Setuid? by chrispyman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Wouldn't this patent also cover setuid, as that's a way you can have an app run under superuser privs for a regular user?

    1. Re:Setuid? by LordWoody · · Score: 3, Informative

      No, because set uid bit by itself does not validate the parent process/user against any data store like sudo command does (eg: against /etc/sudoers)

      --
      Never meddle in the affairs of dragons,
      for you are crunchy and good with catsup.
    2. Re:Setuid? by jc42 · · Score: 3, Informative

      No, because set uid bit by itself does not validate the parent process/user against any data store

      It certainly does. It verifies that the parent's uid has valid execute permission on the new program by comparing the owner and the x bits. This information is stored in the inode, which is in a filesystem (usually but not always a disk). A unix filesystem would certainly qualify as a "data store".

      So unix systems have two different instances of prior art, the setuid (and setgid) bit, and the somewhat later sudo command.

      Of course, the main question is whether anyone will be able to afford the effort to get this patent invalidated. Or will Microsoft be able to bankrupt anyone who tries?

      I suppose IBM could decide that this is a challenge to the security setup in their aix and linux systems. They probably have the money to successfully fight this one. I don't think I do.

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
  7. Proof of concept? by Penguinoflight · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I don't think I've seen a true unprivileged user under an M$ system yet. Everyone is talking about previous art, which is definitly around, but I'd say make M$ prove they actually understand sudo before you start complaining about "I saw it first."

    --
    "And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the World"
    1 John 4:14
    1. Re:Proof of concept? by horatio · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I agree. I also have to agree with an earlier post which mentioned punishing those who patent what they know already has prior art.

      Problem is, I have seen this unprivileged user, and its broken. A few years ago we split our NT accounts in the IT office I worked in into 'priv' and 'non-priv' accounts for each of us. Previously, our typical logins had all the admin privs to do whatever we needed on the workstation.

      The plan was that we could use the win2k/xp version of 'su' (whatever it is called, I don't remember) to do things that needed elevated privs. IT DIDN'T WORK. Some of the child processes, for example, of burning a CD would spawn as your unprivileged context - meaning you couldn't burn a damn CD. You had to log out, and log back in with your priv account for a simple task like burning a CD.

      I think its great how Microsoft steals ideas from other people (*cough*NIX), comes up with a totally frelled implementation that many times doesn't work - and then A) breaks the existing standards, B) goes off and patents the idea as their own or C) both

      Perhaps Microsoft's division which is doing all this should simply be retitled "Patent Whores"

      --
      There is very little future in being right when your boss is wrong.
    2. Re:Proof of concept? by chamblah · · Score: 2, Funny

      M$

    3. Re:Proof of concept? by Bryan_W · · Score: 5, Informative

      I know you were trying to be funny but seriously, it is a feature of Windows 2000/XP all you have to do is shift + right click any executable and select "Run as..." or use the runas command from the command prompt. Sorry but I had to be fair to Microsoft.

  8. A brief history of SUDO by tao_of_biology · · Score: 5, Informative
    So, the patent is filed for August 10th, 2004... I checked out the history of SUDO page at: http://www.courtesan.com/sudo/history.html and it looks like SUDO dates back to 1980.

    In reading the patent, it does look pretty obvious that it's doing what SUDO is doing... I think this should be blown up with little effort.

    Is there any penalty for filing patents for which you KNOW prior art exists? If not, there definitely should be.

    --

    -- "A chicken is an egg's way of making another egg."

    1. Re:A brief history of SUDO by Flower · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Bruce Perens brought this up in a previous patent article and I can't find the post atm. IIRC, it's a criminal offense to knowingly file a false patent. I would assume it falls under perjury. Of course, you don't see anybody actually being prosecuted for this.

      --
      I don't want knowledge. I want certainty. - Law, David Bowie
    2. Re:A brief history of SUDO by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      I vote for "10 yards and loss of down" as the penalty.

    3. Re:A brief history of SUDO by ArbitraryConstant · · Score: 2, Informative
      $man su
      ...
      HISTORY
      A su command appeared in Version 7 AT&T UNIX.
      ...
      Version 7 was released in 1979.
      --
      I rarely criticize things I don't care about.
    4. Re:A brief history of SUDO by Citizen+of+Earth · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Is there any penalty for filing patents for which you KNOW prior art exists? If not, there definitely should be.

      It ought to be fraud, and the patent examiner should be prosecuted as an accessory.

    5. Re:A brief history of SUDO by mdfst13 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "Is there any penalty for filing patents for which you KNOW prior art exists?"

      Well, if the system worked, you would lose your filing fee without getting a patent.

      I strongly suspect that this is a reaction to the Eolas patent. Microsoft is now patenting *everything* they want to do. If the patent doesn't stand up due to prior art in the public domain, no problem: no one will be able to enforce that kind of patent *against* them either. If it does hold up, then they have prevented anyone else from patenting the same thing. Either way, they avoid the embarassment of the Eolas situation. Worst case scenario: they have to license from someone else because the patent already exists.

    6. Re:A brief history of SUDO by ArbitraryConstant · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think su also counts as prior art. The data store is /etc/groups (must be in wheel) instead of /etc/sudoers, and the program that actually gets run is a shell, but I'm not sure how that makes it different.

      --
      I rarely criticize things I don't care about.
    7. Re:A brief history of SUDO by zog+karndon · · Score: 2, Informative

      Geez, doesn't *anybody* know the history of patents? There are literally *hundreds* of patents for (e.g.) paperclips. Each patent describes a slightly different implementation of a paperclip. One might examine, for example, patent 494,622 or patent 371,390 - both patents issued for paperclips, issued in 2004 and 1996, respectively.

      Similarly, Microsoft has a patent on a slightly different implementation of setuid.

      Oh, wait... This is Microsoft, and therefore evil.

    8. Re:A brief history of SUDO by Snowgen · · Score: 2, Informative

      One might examine, for example, patent 494,622 or patent 371,390 - both patents issued for paperclips, issued in 2004 and 1996, respectively.

      Those are design patents, not invention patents.

      For example--no one can patent the fork because it's obvious and it's prior art, etc etc. But, you can design a fork that looks prettier than other forks, and get a design patent for that.

      As a very rough metaphor, think of a design patent as more like a 3-D copyright.

      It has no bearing at all on what's being discussed here.

  9. What Next? by Kandel · · Score: 5, Funny

    US Patent 6,775,786 : Filed by Microsoft : The concept of clicking a mouse button to perform a task.
    Closely followed by...
    US Patent 6,775,787 : Filed by Microsoft : The concept of intercourse to procreate.

    Seriously, what is the world coming to. Corporates such as Microsoft should not be allowed to patent bogus things like this.
    This is truly Capitalism at it's worst...what power have the US given these people!?

    1. Re:What Next? by Mark_MF-WN · · Score: 5, Informative
      This just hastens the end of the patent system. Seriously -- the American patent system is going to fall apart soon, and things like this are the reason.

      The underlying premise of patents will no doubt survive, as it makes a lot of sense in some areas (like engineering). But software and business process patents will probably disappear.

    2. Re:What Next? by maxpublic · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The underlying premise of patents will no doubt survive, as it makes a lot of sense in some areas (like engineering). But software and business process patents will probably disappear.

      And exactly what evidence do you base this assumption on? Corporations are patenting everything under the sun right now, *and getting away with it*. In fact, Congress is entertaining legislation that would further benefit such action.

      Seems to me they're doing a damned fine job of blowing potential competition out of the water, while fucking over the consumer, via the patent system. I don't see this changing any time in the foreseeable future, except for things to get worse than they already are.

      Max

      --
      My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
    3. Re:What Next? by NanoGator · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "This just hastens the end of the patent system. Seriously -- the American patent system is going to fall apart soon, and things like this are the reason."

      Soon? Nah. These patents aren't a problem until somebody actually starts using them to extort money. What's preventing that from happening is fear of losing in court. MS hasn't sued Palm over the double clicking of hardware buttons in PDAs, for example. Why? Because they're slow? Nah. Because they risk losing. Just a money pit at that point.

      Frankly, I think this trend of attempting to patent anything they can has more to do with self defense than with messing with anybody else. Tit for tat. If somebody approaches MS claiming they violate a patent, MS can searc through their patents and look for something to countersue with.

      Polite rebuttals invited. I'm not exactly the most knowledgable person on this topic, so I'm open to discussion. But right now, as it stands, I'm not convinced that the patent system is in that much danger for the foreseeable future. Revolution? Maybe. But I'm not sold on it falling apart. Something to consider: Slashdot's sensationalizing it quite a bit.

      --
      "Derp de derp."
    4. Re:What Next? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I love your optimism.

      Unfortunately there are a lot of companies with large stakes in patent portfolios. You think they are going to let their nest egg be wiped out like that?

      Corporations are never going to let patents get abolished. The worlds only hope is for the Far East to continue to ignore the US patent & copyright rules, while the US continues to marginalize itself.

      Once people realise that the US has become a technological 3rd world, THEN something may happen.

    5. Re:What Next? by keyslammer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Ok, let's consider the dynamics of this situation: there are companies in the business of collecting patents and threatening other companies with lawsuits if they don't submit to licensing. Large companies like Microsoft feel inclined to patent everything they can conceive of just to protect themselves from the patent arsenals of other companies (I don't recall hearing about any truly ridiculous patents by MS until after they were sued over the Eolas patent).

      So we have a situation where large companies have enormous patent arsenals that they can use in their defense (or as part of an attack on their competitors), smaller companies who use trivial patents as a primary revenue stream, and developers who actually want to produce something caught in the middle.

      It seems to me that this will produce the following results:

      1) more high-profile lawsuits between big players (unfortunately, low-profile lawsuits are probably unlikely because the cost of giving in to licensing demands is much lower than the cost of defending yourself in a patent lawsuit)
      2) more patent extortion against individuals and corporations, effectively raising the entry barriers of software development from "got a computer and a dream" to "got the backing of a multi-million dollar corporation with a formidable patent portfolio"
      3) pushing open-source into the underground. OSS developers will have to hide their identity and exchange software through channels that preserve their anonymity. Since OSS is now very much a part of the corporate universe, this entangles the business world with a software "black market".
      4) More corporate anxiety over the use of patents in their software, resulting in lots of efforts to insure that software is patent free. This goal is of course impossible in an environment where every trivial idea is patented, but it will raise the cost of development to an astronomical level and make the lives of IT professionals unbearable, causing many of us to leave the industry.

      So basically, lots of people will get pissed off (and not just Slashdot readers). And when lots of people get pissed off in a democracy, laws get changed. Hopefully they will change for the better.

      So patent everything you can! Can we patent the for loop? Let's do it! Stoop to the level of our oppressors! :-P Seriously, I want to see the FSF or EFF form an initiative to patent every dumb idea we can think of and just start suing people at random. I would donate to that cause.

  10. Re:"in a data store" by FuzzieNorn · · Score: 5, Informative

    No, sudo asks for the password of the currently running user, and then if correct, checks a data store - /etc/sudoers - to see if that user is allowed to use sudo, and only then runs the administrative command. The root logon is not involved; it's actually disabled on some of my boxes.

  11. Ritchie's setuid patent at prior art? by GGardner · · Score: 5, Informative

    I can see missing prior work as prior art. But missing the famous setuid patent seems just silly.

  12. History of sudo. by Skulker303 · · Score: 5, Informative

    http://www.sudo.ws/sudo/history.html

    Prior art.

  13. Thats it. by 0racle · · Score: 4, Funny

    I'm not going to put it off anymore, I have an amazing idea and I'm off to patent it. Its a web based front end for system updates, see, it scans the system to determine what updates are needed, then only presents them to the user in such a way that they can see what updates are critical and which are just general enhancements. I'm going to make a mint.

    --
    "I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."
    1. Re:Thats it. by NetCow · · Score: 2, Funny

      You're a bit too late. Apple got a patent on that one :)

  14. More silly M$ian legal-sleeze? by GuyverDH · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Hmmm, I'm wondering if they are trying to "patent" the process by which hacks and 'sploits use to elevate their rights so that they can throw "patent" infringement charges at the authors of worms / viruii and other malicious malware type stuff, in addition to the tired old "hacking" charges. Then, with the recent change in the political wind, they can use Federal Agents under the Patriot Act to hunt down and arrest those "terrorists" - or was that from "copyright" infringement? I'm getting those two as confused as the congressmen and federal agencies are!

    --
    Who is general failure, and why is he reading my hard drive?
  15. Re:"in a data store" by Stormgren · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Technically you could call a directory a "data store". If so, this is no different than setuid/setgid, right along with sudo.

    --

    "All those tubes and wires and careful notes!"

  16. Guys with a boner for dress socks... by Saeed+al-Sahaf · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm not really worried about patents like these because I feel that the whole patent issue is coming to a head, and that in the end, things will change. Silly patents will not even be contested in court, and many will be tossed out for sheer sillyness.

    --
    "Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
  17. not really Prior Art, but by hndrcks · · Score: 5, Funny

    " the concept of 'a process configured to run under an administrative privilege level' which, based on authorization information 'in a data store', may perform actions at administrative privilege on behalf of a 'user process'."

    Hell, that sounds like Klez!

    --
    Everyone will start to cheer when you put on your sailin' shoes.
  18. Re:Code Red is Prior Art as Well by ehack · · Score: 2, Funny

    Seeong that the US has military and economic power to boot, we pass the laws that the US requests, and hope to stay alive. And of course the US passes the laws that Microsoft requests :)

    --
    This is not a signature.
  19. Let me suggest a name for this product..... by Roskolnikov · · Score: 3, Funny

    msudo

    --
    Unix, an obscure operating system developed by bored researchers in an attempt to get a better game playing experience.
  20. You know something... by neiras · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The American patent system is so out of control, it's unbelievable. The companies that abuse the overworked, underqualified patent office to stack up dubious patents for future ammunition against competitors ought to be sanctioned!

    I don't have words to express how angry this IP grab makes me - and I'm not even an American! Did the Patent Office do any looking into prior art in this case at ALL?

    Whose brilliant idea was it to give corporations the same legal rights as an individual? I wonder if this kind of crap would happen if only individual inventors could apply for patents, whether or not they were funded by a company that paid for their research. Hell, make it illegal for companies to defend patents or fund the defense of their employees' patents - make it up to the inventor to go to court and defend themselves! Jail time if prior art is found!

    Research would still get funded, but only for the purpose of improving products, not for expansion of intellectual property portfolios.

    IANAL (obviously), I know these are probably stupid suggestions, but damn it, we need some extreme methods to match the extreme opportunism shown by these companies. Anyone else have other pie-in-the-sky, impractical ideas for changing the US patent system? ;)

    1. Re:You know something... by MarkSwanson · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Whose brilliant idea was it to give corporations the same legal rights as an individual?"

      You hit the nail on the head. Additionally disturbing: the documentary "The Corporation"
      http://www.thecorporation.tv/filmmak ers/
      makes a strong case for defining a corporation as the perfect psychopath.

      --
      Schedule your world with ScheduleWorld.com http://www.ScheduleWorld.com/ (Java Web Startable)
    2. Re:You know something... by Derek+Pomery · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually,
      nobody did.

      --
      -- perl -e'print pack"H*","6e656d6f406d38792e6f7267"' /. ate my old sig. Bastards.
  21. This is getting ridiculous by Mr.+Cancelled · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Companies are getting rich by stealing the future inventions of people with these generic fucking patents. What are the odds that those who invented the patenting process actually envisioned it being twisted around and allowing people to patent ideas, and concepts, the like of which they themselves have no idea how to achieve.

    The idea of a patent is, or at least should be, to patent an invention. Not some task or distant goal which you can imagine some day being achieved, but are unable to currently achieve yourself.

    Imagine if Ford had been able to patent the automile in generic enough terms so that any motorized land vehicle was covered... Where would we be today Wine makers had patented the fermentation process before beer had existed?

    IMHO, patents should be for very specific inventions, and processes, which you have invented, and can accurately demonstrate at the time of patent request, and which of course didn't exist in it's current form prior to your invention

    The computer industry, and it's money sucking lawyers have been allowed to chisel away at the wording and verbiage of the patent laws to such an extent that you are now able to patent just about any idea/concept someone may have down the road. Just think about the stifling of innovation if those science fiction writers of the 50's had patented all that they foresaw.

    What makes me mad is that no one has yet come forward and shown prior artwork for a patent on lawyer wielding companies who make their money by exploiting the ideas and innovations of others through a series of generic and vaguely worded patents and threats. Perhaps then this whole mess would disapear.

    1. Re:This is getting ridiculous by R2.0 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Couple of points...

      1. There WAS a patent on the automobile, and it was the same deal - generic concept, lawyer/shell company demanding royalties on every car built. Henry Ford said "Screw You", took it to court, and won.

      2. I believe archaeology has shown beer predating wine.

      Other than these quibbles, point taken.

      --
      "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
    2. Re:This is getting ridiculous by whovian · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Companies are getting rich by stealing the future inventions of people with these generic fucking patents.

      I think many people have speculated this for a while: a business world governed by patents and licensing where individual incentive to create is effectively unlawful.

      This is why I think it's important to support open source, the GPL, and open scientific research.

      --
      To-do List: Receive telemarketing call during a tornado warning. Check.
  22. The article by Zorilla · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The article's headline may be a little misleading, as it looks like Microsoft isn't directly patenting "sudo", but rather the concept of "a process configured to run under an administrative privilege level." Microsoft patenting "runas" may be a better description.

    --

    It would be cool if it didn't suck.
  23. prior art - ibm mainframe by geraint-nz · · Score: 3, Insightful

    i'm sure 20 years ago ibm's dos/vse, vm and mvs used to do this to allow an ordinary user to run one program which required the services of another so could invoke the other program to run with elevated priviledges. the priviledges were associated with the program not the user.

  24. Re:"in a data store" by GuyverDH · · Score: 5, Informative

    sudo - through the use of it's data-store the "sudoers" file, can be configured multiple ways.

    #1 - To require the "root" password.
    #2 - To require the password of the userid that the user is running as.
    #4 - To require the password of the userid the user wishes to switch to.
    #5 - To not require any password at all.

    When not requiring a password, it can be configured by the userid, or the command that is being run.

    All in all, it's very configurable, and definately fits the prior art criteria.

    --
    Who is general failure, and why is he reading my hard drive?
  25. Re:Su do me! by Rosco+P.+Coltrane · · Score: 4, Funny

    $ sudo mount -t vfat /dev/hdd1 /mnt/win1
    Instant patent violation!


    Actually, double patent violation: FAT and sudo.

    Now pull down your pants, bend over and prepare to meet my lawyers.

    -- Signed: Bill Gates

    --
    "A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
  26. Not really a patent by commodoresloat · · Score: 5, Funny

    It's a pseudo-patent.

    thanks, I'll be here all week....

    1. Re:Not really a patent by Afrosheen · · Score: 2, Funny

      Makes sense to me. Since what it does is let the user do what the admin can, superuser do = sudo.

      But pronounced the other way is more appropriate in this context. Sue = Dough.

    2. Re:Not really a patent by Proc6 · · Score: 3, Funny
      If only that were true. I think we all know it's pronounced "soo-doo" because that sounds like "Sulu" from Star Trek.

      Damn trekkies everywhere.

      --

      I'm Rick James with mod points biatch!

    3. Re:Not really a patent by fishdan · · Score: 2, Insightful
      My shops have always said Sue-Doh, as in I'm a fake super-user. I'm not sure what the etymology is, but I think that Sudo has become one of those words that the pronunciation of will vary depending onn where you heard it first, like "Data". Pseudophed rine is given a phonetic spelling "soo doe e FED rin" and sounds like this There have been other discussion of this subject too: http://www.kottke.org/remainder/04/02/5050.html

      Short of a posting here on the official sudo site by Todd or Chris (both of whom I bet could care less) I'm gonna keep saying "Sue-Doh" out of homage to Homer Simpson. Perhaps MSFT's patent is based on the pronunciation?

      --
      Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm
    4. Re:Not really a patent by Erik+Hollensbe · · Score: 2, Insightful

      God damn....

      who cares.

      It's a program for christ-sakes.

  27. Exploits. by Daleks · · Score: 4, Funny

    I think MS has prior art on this one. Their programs have been executing at a higher than normal privilage level for awhile.

  28. I hope they keep it up - both of them... by 3seas · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Personally I hope the Patent office continues granting MS patents that have such prior art ---- two things will happen -- 1) it makes the patent office look to be a joke and can be used in court against patents in general and 2) makes MS look to be even more a fool seeings how they really should know better then to file such patent applications for such prior art stuff in software...

  29. Sounds like a job for..... by the_rajah · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Pubpat or the Electronic Frontier Foundation


    "Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain

    --


    "Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain
  30. A dangerous precedent... by chipwich · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Although it's easy to view this patent as a frivolous innovation that will probably be overturned (eventually) if MS chooses to pursue action against competitors, the danger is in the precedent that is continually being set by the USPTO. By failing to adequately examine the concepts behing these obvious patents (eg, running a process authorized by root, single/double/triple clicking a mouse, etc.), our patent system is perverted into one where the burden falls on new inventors to prove that their innovations do not infringe on patents, rather then a system where the burden falls on patent-holders to prove that their IP has been infringed upon.

    This strategy may work in the US, where we can simply put the inventor^h^h^h^h^h criminals in jail (note that the US already has among the highest incarcerated population %-ages), but it probably won't hold up well against the rest of the world, especially the parts that don't think the USPTO is the last word. Unless we can start to incarcerate a larger percentage of the world's population for infringing on US IP, this strategy may not prove to be sustainable.

    Perhaps corporate sponsorship of prisons facilities would help make this strategy a winner...

    1. Re:A dangerous precedent... by stor · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Unless we can start to incarcerate a larger percentage of the world's population for infringing on US IP, this strategy may not prove to be sustainable.

      *Dons tinfoil hat*

      I believe there are a number of influential men in the US that want to do exactly that.

      They call it a "Free Trade Agreement"

      Cheers
      Stor

      --
      "Yeah well there's a lot of stuff that should be, but isn't"
    2. Re:A dangerous precedent... by st1d · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Oh, not just men, there are "agreements" in place with a number of countries to accept US patents, copyrights, trademarks as law. In fact, that's one of the more endearing items in the EU patent attempts. Similar to extradition agreements, many countries might as well just consider themselves "Lesser States of the Union".

      --
      Microsoft has just released their much anticipated hands-free cordless mouse. Warning, it may hurt a little at first.
  31. My Theory by TheSpoom · · Score: 4, Interesting

    My theory is that Microsoft is patenting all these things so they can use it as part of a marketing campaign to PHBs when Longhorn comes out. Something to the effect of, "Why take the risk of running Linux when we own the patents on everything they use?" I know a few people it would convince pretty easily... Tis all FUD.

    --
    It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
    - E. Debs
  32. Patent Sex by suwain_2 · · Score: 4, Funny

    A friend and I resolved a while back that we should file a patent for A protocol for expansion of the human race, and essentially describe the process of sexual intercourse in extremely vague terms.

    After taking over all the porn sites in the world, we could start suing parents across the nation.

    In fact, you should really just give me $699 today if you plan on having sex any time soon. The license is good for a whole year! (But only for one partner.)

    --
    ________________________________________________
    suwain_2 :: quality slashdot p
    1. Re:Patent Sex by hawkeyeMI · · Score: 4, Funny

      You're not going to make much money that way on /.

      --
      Error 404 - Sig Not Found
  33. Gnome Pager - patented by Microsoft by iive · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It's an old news, but I wonder have slashdot crowd found out this patent:

    http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=P TO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch- bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PG01&s1=200301895 97&OS=20030189597&RS=20030189597

    The most interesting part is the images. There you can actually see the Gnome logo. (There is an extra karma bunus for the first who find the KDE logo;)


    So Microsoft have already begun patenting Linux.
    It is true that M$ cannot buy GPL code, but it can buy the coders.

    Now, guess what will happen after the fiaSCO is over.

  34. And tomorrow by HangingChad · · Score: 3, Funny
    MSFT intends to patent a switch or button on the front or side of the machine that causes power to be restored to the machine if it is not currently operational and to cut off the power if the machine is operational

    And people say MSFT doesn't invest in R&D. Brilliant!

    --
    That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
  35. Re:Su do me! by Rosco+P.+Coltrane · · Score: 4, Informative

    HELLO? When was FAT patented...NEVER. Microsoft didn't even invent fat. Please think before you post.

    Ignorant people shouldn't yak.

    --
    "A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
  36. Perhaps based on "EPAL" ? by ksi440 · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Microsoft does have something that is somewhat like sudo. They call it EPAL, or "Elevated Privileges Application Launcher".

  37. I don't think there's an out by illuminatedwax · · Score: 5, Informative

    I don't think there's an out this time. Usually, when you get posts saying "Microsoft patents clicking!!" there's usually something in the patent that says "clicking on an icon by using a joystick, underwater, over the internet" or something ridiculous that means the patent doesn't have prior art, but the idea itself does, and will probably be used to try and stretch the patent as far as the courts will let it.

    But this time, it looks like they are doing exactly what sudoes. Maybe finally all the anti-Slashdot-stereotype trolls will be wrong.
    Here's my read:

    CLAIMS:

    1. Processing a request from a non-admin user to do admin tasks. check.
    2. Determining if the user can do such a request. Check.
    3. Checking a data source to do #2. Check. (etc/passwd, others)
    4. Checking a data source to see which one of many admin tasks the user can do. This might be a bit iffy, because I'm not incredibly familiar with sudo. I would assume it's possible to restrict the usage of sudo for different tasks, and if so, Check.
    5. Multiple users. Check.
    6. Groups. Check.
    7. Using it for Methods. I think the Linux kernel might allow only certain system calls to be done by an administrator. If so, check.
    8. Groups for #7. Check-maybe.
    9,10. Combining classes and methods. Here it seems they get really specific, and it doesn't look like they define "class" or "method." Maybe.
    11-13. Passwords. Check.
    14-23. A computer to do the above. Check.
    24-34. A security framework to do the above. Check.
    35-49. Doing it over a network. Check. Now, here, a network seems to involve "hyperlinked documents creating a user interface." Certainly this idea is older than 2000. Check.
    50-62. Again, having a computer to do 1-49.
    63-end. Yeesh. Having a computer to do everything from 1-62. I guess they are covering every single combination.

    So there's the claims. There's nothing in there that sudo really doesn't do, because I think the vauge language MS is using can be applied to a lot of different methods of unix-style security.

    So who's going to care? No one, especially not at the Patent Office.

    --Stephen

    --
    Did you ever notice that *nix doesn't even cover Linux?
  38. ATTN: SCO :) by macmaniac · · Score: 2, Funny

    Perhaps, if the SCO actually has the IP rights it thinks it has, this might almost be a worthy lawsuit :) Then again, then I wouldn't want either side to win....

  39. Re:"in a data store" by C_To · · Score: 2, Informative

    You can change the config in the sudo.conf file to ask for user passwords, or to run without it for certain users, etc.

  40. Re:perhaps my evil genius hat isn't working by cbiltcliffe · · Score: 5, Funny

    I get the feeling more and more that Microsoft is doing something like this:

    Manager 1: Wow! They accepted that patent! The USPTO is crazy! Even with a year or so of prior art!

    Manager 2: Yeah, no kidding!

    Manager 1: Let's try this one next. It's got 3 years prior art.

    Manager 2: Wow! They accepted that one too! What morons!

    Manager 1: Man...let's see just how crazy we can get here...let's go with 20 years prior art, and see if the dopes accept it!

    Manager 2: LOL HAHA ROFLMAO! They took it! What planet do these guys live on?!?!

    --
    "City hall" in German is "Rathaus" Kinda explains a few things......
  41. It is not sudo or suid by engywook · · Score: 2, Insightful

    With sudo (an instance of using the suid capability of UNIX), the process itself is priviledged, with privs based upon information in the data store and command line arguments.

    This patent sounds more like there's a root daemon running in the background and I send it a message asking that it mount a CD-ROM for me; it looks me up in a database of users permitted to mount CDs; and performs the mount on my behalf.

    --
    "This signature quote intentionally left blank"
  42. Re:perhaps my evil genius hat isn't working by hawaiian717 · · Score: 5, Funny
    A patent on $ or # as a prompt?

    It would probably read more like:

    An indication by which a computer system indicates that it is ready for arbitrary input from the user.

    But specifically, they'd be patenting C:\> .

    --
    End of Line.
  43. In other news, sudo 1.6.8 was announced today... by millert · · Score: 3, Informative

    What an auspicious start. Maybe M$ will decide to patent some of the new features.

  44. maybe not so easy by r00t · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If the summary is correct, sudo doesn't count.
    At least, normal sudo use doesn't count.

    This looks more like a daemon that will accept
    commands to run. With sudo, you don't have a
    privileged process performing actions on behalf
    of a user process. It's a privileged process all
    by itself, plain and simple.

    Maybe xcdroast+cdrecord would count, if cdrecord
    is setuid and xcdroast is not. That's key. You
    have to have two processes, one of which is not
    privileged. Knowing the way Windows would likely
    do things though, a daemon may be required.

    1. Re:maybe not so easy by sploo22 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In fact, I did (well, at least the claims). There are two processes: a non-privileged process such as your shell, which starts sudo (a privileged process). Sudo uses its command line as a request and executes it. Clear now?

      --
      Karma: Segmentation fault (tried to dereference a null post)
    2. Re:maybe not so easy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative
      If the summary is correct, sudo doesn't count.

      The summary is mostly irrelivant as to what legal protection the patent has. The legal protection comes from the part marked "claims". And if you look at claim 1:

      executing an administrative security process under the administrative privilege level;

      the administrative security process accepting a request from a user process executing under the non-administrative privilege level

      You need an "admin. security process" that is "executing ... under ... admin. priv. level".

      It, the "admin. security process" then needs to "accept request[s] from a user process".

      So, it's somewhat questionable if sudo would really block the claims. I'm sure if one were to send the patent office the sudo info, MS would argue that they have an "already running admin. process" that then actively accepts requests from other user processes.

      In any case, everyone here who's uptight about the patent, there's at least two things you can do. 1) you can collect together all your sudo data, and optionally if you want explain how you think it describes a system that operates the same as the claimed system, and send it to the patent office to be placed into the legal record of this patent. That's the low cost (or maybe no cost, check the patent office web site for details) option available for you. Or, 2) you can collect together all your sudo data, and explain carefully how you think it describes what the claims describe, and file with the patent office for what is known as a reexamination of the patent. Yes, that's correct, you, someone unrelated to either MS or the patent office, or this patent, can actually send in your information and ask that the patent office reconsider their decision. Again, check the web site for details. So, instead of belly aching about how bad a job the patent office is or is not doing, why not simply help them out by sending them the info you know about, and then they have a better chance of doing a better job. And who knows, you might actually get this patent killed in the process.

    3. Re:maybe not so easy by no-body · · Score: 5, Insightful
      I don't think you are right with this. You're taking the word "process" too strict. I have not seen that it sasys in the patent that it needs to be a daemon.

      In the patent context it's hardly a OS process, more a "description of collected steps performing a defined functionality".

      If you think sudo does not count you're definitely incorrect. The sudo program is a process (performs defined steps) under an authorized level (setuid root) goes after privileges (grouped by user/computer/group/whatever) and allows or denies privileges.

      That's the patent.

      What M$soft does right now is write zillions of patents, no matter if they have previous art - they sure know it exists. Their straegy appears to be to get as many patents as possible and then one has to go to court to get it revoked. They got billions of $$'s in their war chest ant they are using it in this manner - one day we'll see how this turns out.

    4. Re:maybe not so easy by aweraw · · Score: 4, Interesting

      So, it's somewhat questionable if sudo would really block the claims. I'm sure if one were to send the patent office the sudo info, MS would argue that they have an "already running admin. process" that then actively accepts requests from other user processes.

      you may be correct... I wonder, in security terms, if its a good idea to have such a thing constantly on, like you describe.

      --
      5468652047616D65
    5. Re:maybe not so easy by CatGrep · · Score: 4, Funny

      you might actually get this patent killed in the process.

      Would that be in the administrative process or in the user process?

      killall sudo_patent

    6. Re:maybe not so easy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Sudo isnt' a great example.

      Setuid is.

      You X window system runs setuid root so that when you exectute a command (say run a quake3 game) it is able to access the 3-d rendering stuff in the hardware. Something that only a administrator can normally do.

      Say you have a executable, "ls" for instance. As a regular user:

      # which ls
      # cp ls ~/lsmega
      # sudo chown root lsmega
      # sudo chmod a+s ls
      # ls -ld /root
      drwx------ 49 root root 4096 Aug 7 18:49 /root
      # ls /root /bin/ls: /root: Permission denied
      # ls -l lsmega
      -rwsr-sr-x 1 root user 75948 Aug 21 01:29 lsmega
      # ./lsmega /root
      (root directory file listing)

      Now users can execute that file and when doing so they use administrative permissions.

      You could also include that file in a script, so that the script executes it will use your user's permissions until your script will execute that command using root permissions.

      You can setup a deamon to do that, too. So that when a application or whatever wants to use FTP to access your machine you can set it up to use root permissions (not that you'd want too!)

      Hence lsmega provides the user's proccess (your terminal) administrative rights for veiwing files. Exactly what is located in the patent.

  45. SCO's prior art by The+Monster · · Score: 2, Informative
    So is SCO going to sue Microsoft for infringing on their claim to sudo
    They already have prior art in the form of asroot in SCO OpenServer. For those who aren't familiar with it, asroot allows an adminstrator to authorize certain users to run certain commands, well, 'as root'. Since it requires a 'data store' of which users are authorized to run which commands, there is definitely prior art.

    Of course, it's quite possible that the prior art involved is that of the programmers working on the original Xenix product for MS.

    --

    [100% ISO 646 Compliant]
    SVM, ERGO MONSTRO.

  46. Re:perhaps my evil genius hat isn't working by hawkeyeMI · · Score: 5, Funny
    More like this:

    M1: Alright, pay up.

    M2: I can't believe this. (pays)

    M3: Hey guys, 3 to 1 odds I don't get the patent on the 'long rectangular button which inserts a space character when pressed'. Who's in?

    M1: $50 you don't get it.

    M2: $200 for.

    --
    Error 404 - Sig Not Found
  47. Ok, let's see what it actually says.... by Flower · · Score: 2, Informative
    There are 75 claims to the patent. I almost got to claim 30 before I had the urge to reach for my bhong or pray for a flashback. Skimming through the rest of the claims I did note that they include claims for network connected devices.

    Onto the description which is not as sound as commenting on the actual claims but at least provides an idea of what they want to patent. First thing to note is they are once again on the appliance angle. They aren't discussing a PC. They're discussing an XBox or NAS.

    Now hitting the Detailed Description, here is where they slide in that the patent can cover general purpose PCs. Lots of discussion about Web-based administration. So it's not just sudo but Webmin+sudo.

    If anyone wants to take this to the next level go for it. I did my best to RTFP and this is as far as I think I'm going to take it. It was kinda cute to note how general things were in the patent e.g. "data store" that can cover the registry or a text file but there are other things to read tonight.

    --
    I don't want knowledge. I want certainty. - Law, David Bowie
  48. Re:Patent on excrement expulsion by BigDish · · Score: 2, Funny

    Sorry, SCO Already has a patent on that

  49. Re:perhaps my evil genius hat isn't working by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Microsoft: hello I want to fill a patent request...

    Patent office employee: ok, granted!

    Microsoft: ...but don't you first want to...

    Patent office employee: NO NO NO I said granted!!

    Microsoft: ...well but there's this thing called prior...

    Patent office employee: I SAID GRANTED!!

    Microsoft: yeah but there was another pate...

    Patent oggice employee: KNOCK IT OFF ALREADY!!! GRANTED YOU BIG-POCKET COMPANY!!!

  50. Claim seems valid by SiliconEntity · · Score: 3, Insightful
    You guys are all wrong. Here's the text of claim 1. Read it carefully.
    1. In conjunction with an operating system configured to limit access privileges in accordance with defined privilege levels, said privilege levels including at least an administrative privilege level under which a plurality of administrative methods can be initiated and a non-administrative privilege level under which at least one of the administrative methods cannot be initiated, a method comprising:

    executing an administrative security process under the administrative privilege level;

    the administrative security process accepting a request from a user process executing under the non-administrative privilege level to initiate a particular administrative method, the user process calling the administrative security process with parameters comprising (a) an identification of the particular administrative method and (b) arguments to be provided to said particular administrative method; and

    the administrative security process calling the identified particular administrative method on behalf of the user process and providing the arguments to said identified particular administrative method.
    What this is describing is a proxy process (it very specifically says process) running as root/admin which accepts RPCs (remote procedure calls) for privileged operations, and then makes the call as root, on behalf of the user.

    That's not what su or sudo do (say that five times fast). They use no separate root process waiting to receive and proxy privileged calls.

    The patent specifically says that the request comes from a non-root user and goes to a root process; that the data sent across particularly describes an OS call and its arguments; and that the root process makes that precise call on behalf of the user.

    Now, I'm not going to claim that no one has ever done this in the history of the universe. But it's not what sudo does, and the RPC based utilities that I can think of don't fit this exact pattern.
    1. Re:Claim seems valid by sploo22 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I can certainly see how this could apply to sudo.

      executing an administrative security process under the administrative privilege level;

      bash forks/execs the sudo process, which gains root privileges through the setuid bit.

      the administrative security process accepting a request from a user process executing under the non-administrative privilege level to initiate a particular administrative method

      The request is passed on the command line and accepted by sudo.

      the user process calling the administrative security process with parameters comprising (a) an identification of the particular administrative method and (b) arguments to be provided to said particular administrative method; and

      Now, this depends on your definition of a method. If an executable program counts as one - and it should, as most administrative tasks under UNIX use separate commands - then this fits perfectly.

      the administrative security process calling the identified particular administrative method on behalf of the user process and providing the arguments to said identified particular administrative method.

      Sudo execs the requested program. QED.

      The thing is, the patent doesn't specifically say the privileged process has to handle multiple requests. Sudo DOES run in its own process before it transfers control.

      --
      Karma: Segmentation fault (tried to dereference a null post)
  51. Re:perhaps my evil genius hat isn't working by bechthros · · Score: 2, Funny

    please don't give them any ideas...

  52. Wake up. Obviously not patenting SUDO. by Elwood+P+Dowd · · Score: 3, Insightful

    A bunch of comments here are exclaiming that

    1) This patent is identical to sudo! Prior art!
    2) Microsoft will use its patent on sudo to attack Linux.

    Obviously both statements cannot be true. If Microsoft ever attempted to enforce this patent on distributors & users of sudo or a sudo-like device, they would have no case. They would have proven that the patent is invalid, because the product that they are attempting to block is considerably older than the patent.

    1) This is like sudo, but different enough to merit a patent.
    2) Microsoft will never attempt to enforce this patent on something that is older than the patent.

    And I don't even have to read the patent. Keep in mind that "different enough to merit a patent" is barely different at all. Even the dumbest programmer does 200 patentable things per day. If you're the first person to do any of them, you can file. If you're the second person to do any of them, you're liable. That's the problem, not that Microsoft has gotten away with patenting some existing feature of Unix (and Windows, for that matter).

    --

    There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
  53. to get it through ... by twitter · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I have an amazing idea and I'm off to patent it. Its a web based front end for system updates, see, it scans the system to determine what updates are needed, then only presents them to the user in such a way that they can see what updates are critical and which are just general enhancements.

    To get it passed, make some pictures. Take a screen shot of M$'s update notification and then add some preview buttons, a block diagram and other widgets. You might not be able to patent M$'s dinky notification, but you can keep them from improving it. That's what they are trying to do to Gnome's Pager.

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

  54. Open Patents by deathcloset · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Wondering.

    This "prior Art" of which everyone is speaking.

    Would it apply to a full-form patent application posted publicly?

    Meaning, if I present here the idea of a type of list-browsing method where the user is presented with newest added or scanned items inserted into the next selected cursor position in an updateable or actively updating list as they browse arbitrarily sorted or ordered items or values, that this declaration itself constitutes prior art (if, theoretically, the language was legally sound)?

    Even if it's not prior art it's still a good idea huh?

    I digress.

    Is the concept of an "open patent" even applicable legally? I hope so, because I have some ideas that I would like to open up (and I have the feeling i'm not the only one).

    It would be great, having this huge database of ideas that any designer or engineer could feel free to impliment or incorporate or merely look into for inspiration.

    Competition is good in practice, but cooperation is better in play.

  55. I did something similar as a workaround in NT 4.0 by HornWumpus · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Had a cheasy VB app servany'ed running as admin. Exposed an adhoc API that allowed a manager running an app on his workstation that caused the service to stop and restart the network service on the server, thus clearing up all the leaked memory said service had put all over the servers memory.

    Ugly and insecure I know but my choices were to get off my ass every time the server bogged (not bloody likely), give every bozo with enough rank to work overtime for free admin and show them how (even less likely, I'd quit first) or implement an ugly kludge that could screw things up royal if used by morons.

    I also realize upgrading to a OS that did'nt leak memory in it's network service was a long term option.

    --
    John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  56. assume everything already patented by goon · · Score: 2, Informative

    '... In software, assume that everything is already patented. You can't build anything, no matter how new it is, without infringing someone's patent. patents and linux ...'
    [tim bray]


    must make a mention of tim brays article on software patents that I've recycled from a while ago.

    --
    peterrenshaw ~ Another Scrappy Startup
  57. Re:Open Patents: How to fix the system for $50. by waferhead · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I would prefer a ~6 month public comment period, after full public disclosure.

    Also infers requirement by PO to listen and follow up.

    It's going public anyway...

    cheap, almost free, and if noone cares, it gets approved.

    Also would disseminate the "new" ideas, which is the REAL point of patents in the first place.

    One more requirement: must be comprehensable to the average HS graduate, and provide FREE links to all references. (implies HTML)

  58. Re:Claim seems valid - not really by jojomosko · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Actually, claim may sound valid vis-a-vis sudo alone but seems invalid vis-a-vis ssh and widely used common practice.

    ssh allows (via authorized_keys) to execute selective remote/local actions by certain authenticated entities. And it is all highly configurable:

    • who can execute remote (or local) commands
    • what operations (commands) can be executed
    • using what privileges (via setuid/setgid bits and command owner/group)
    And since the agent (sshd) is a permanently running process, there's really nothing new in this patent as decribed.

    Am I missing something?

    Please bear with me it is my first post to slashdot.
  59. how to fix the system by bani · · Score: 2, Interesting

    not only would the applicant lose the patent and the filing fee, the filing fee would be awarded to the individual who provided the first prior art which invalidated the patent.

  60. Makes my blood boil by jonabbey · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It really angers me that anyone should get patents on such an obvious thing.. how in the world can the USPTO possibly pretend to know that no one in the world of software has ever done this before? Software differs from making airliner parts, in that anyone with a computer has all the pieces required to produce any piece of software they can think of. There have been probably millions of programs written over the last 50 years, and since software wasn't considered patentable during the vast majority of that time, there's an enormous corpus of prior art that should rightfully be extremely difficult to discount.

    When the average cost of patent litigation is on the order of $3 million dollars, it's way too much to Microsoft's advantage (yes, even taking the Eolas patent into account) for the USPTO to allow any but the most extremely novel software patents to be granted.

    Gah!

  61. The best thing to do... by Nermal6693 · · Score: 2, Funny

    stevejobs% sudo rm -rf * Microsoft

  62. Absolutely !! by AftanGustur · · Score: 5, Insightful


    So, I guess the prior art will be easy to show... right?

    Absolutely,
    however, if you want the prior art to have any legal meaning, you will have to affort a costly legal process with the evil empire's lawyers.

    You see, it doesn't matter so much who is *right* any more. It costs a awful lot of money just to have your case heard.

    --
    echo '[q]sa[ln0=aln80~Psnlbx]16isb572CCB9AE9DB03273snlbxq' |dc
  63. Why not have patents peer reviewed? by Peter+Cooper · · Score: 2, Interesting

    In the UK, if you want to get permissions to build on land, or change how your land drainage works, set up certain types of businesses in residential areas, etc, you have to have the details published in the local newspaper and anyone who wants to complain about them can do so.

    Why don't we do the same with patents? When a patent regarding, say, computing comes out.. why doesn't it end up in PC Magazine, or on Slashdot, for peer review? That way, anyone who has a complaint about the patent can register it with the patent office, and we can stop silly stuff like this happening.

  64. I have prior art by jregel · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I can't get the article at the moment (slow net connection), but based on the other comments, I think I have prior art on this. I'm not a genius and I suspect that others have done similar things.

    Our user management is handled by two guys who don't have strong UNIX skills. They have to setup users, add mail aliases and set passwords etc. The operator type roles that sys admins like to delegate.

    They are trusted individuals in the sense that they won't intentionally damage a system, but their experience is such that they can, and have caused accidental damage (one of them deleted all lines in the mailaliases file using vi by mistake).

    I wrote a menu wrapper for their logins that allow them to request certain functions be performed (password wipes etc.). When they action a function, a temporary lock file is written to a directory (/var/local) that only their group can write to. A cron job, running as root, executes every minute and if a lockfile exists, will perform the command (with some sanity checking involved - e.g., it's not possible to change password if the requested user has a UID less than 100).

    It's not 100% secure, but it does the job. I don't have a patent on it, but it's worked for the last couple of years without problems.

  65. The USPO is a laughing stock by Secrity · · Score: 3, Informative

    Software patents are turning the USPO into a laughing stock. I can understand the USPO not being able to thoroughly examine patents for some esoteric science. Sudo is not an esoteric science. If the USPO is going to issue software patents they should have somebody who knows something about software. This sort of patent should have been caught by anybody who has any knowlege of Unix-like operating systems.

  66. Those are 'prior art' pictures, to show contrast by teridon · · Score: 2, Informative

    The most interesting part is the images. There you can actually see the Gnome logo. (There is an extra karma bunus for the first who find the KDE logo;)

    Listen, I hate MS as much as the next guy -- but did you read the rest of the patent? In the "BRIEF DESCRIPTION OF THE DRAWINGS" section, it reads:

    [0013] FIG. 1A [referring to the KDE front panel] is a pictorial diagram illustrating a desktop of a graphical user interface according to the prior art.

    [0014] FIG. 1B [referring to the Gnome front panel] is a pictorial diagram illustrating one implementation of a panel containing a desk guide used to switch among multiple virtual desktop according to the prior art.

    In the "BACKGROUND OF THE INVENTION" section, it points out that in KDE, the pager doesn't show you the pictures of the desktops: "As more and more application windows 102 are dispersed throughout these virtual desktops, it may be difficult for a user to remember which desktop contains which application window." You have to click on each desktop until you find it.

    For the GNOME pager, it says that "running application windows appear as small, raised squares... it is still not possible for a user to determine from these small raised squares the desired application window for which he may be looking"

    The patent is apparently for MS's improvment of the concept by actually showing small recognizable representations of each desktop in a "preview" pane that shows all the desktops, and for being able to transfer application windows from a different virtual desktop to the current one, without actually bringing up the other desktop.

    Ok, /.'ers -- can you think of prior art for this? Codetek's Virual Desktop is similar, but it uses application icons to represent windows, instead of shrunken pictures of the actual windows. However, from this FAQ, it appears the Codetek has at least tried to show shruken pictures in their pager, and found it was too processor intensive.

    --
    I hold it, that a little rebellion, now and then, is a good thing. -- Thomas Jefferson
  67. SELinux? by Dark+Coder · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Privilege execution under a privileged level within a operating system context? Bah!

    One can name over a dozen OSes that garnered the famed Class B1 Trusted OSes status that provided this feature set since 1983. Most of them will never see the light of days due to their classified status.

    Perhaps, the U.S. Patent Office should consider investigating for possible industrial payola to their underpaid $60,000/yr GS-5 ranking corporate-rejecting $125K real bad diploma-milled reviewers.

  68. You don't see junk patents in other countries by Nice2Cats · · Score: 2, Insightful
    It doesn't matter how well staffed the patent office is. It is humanly impossible for a government office to realistically assess all of human knowledge for prior art.

    As true as that is, you don't see the patent offices of other countries passing out patents to everybody and his dog for things that anybody with five minutes of experience in the field knows are an old hat. This is getting ridiculous. Next thing you know, Microsoft will be patenting the use of nine inch nails for fixing people to two wood beams set at right angles and demanding money from Trent Reznor.

    There is some systematic failure in the American patent process that is responsible for these junk patents, and the longer it is left unfixed, the more expensive it is going to be to go back and clear out the deadwood. Now how much staff is that going to take? How high will the bill be for all the lawyers, judges, and clerks be that it will take to return the system to sanity?

    Then again, the U.S. has money to burn, don't we. It's not like we're paying for a war halfway around the globe or are losing business to India and China or have a poverty problem...

  69. Re:resolving patent disputes by msobkow · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You are not getting the point.

    Microsoft knows these patents are bullshit -- they're not stupid. They're counting on the patent office being stupid enough to approve them so they can hold them over someone's head in court.

    If Microsoft can force enough delays to buy a government and a reprieve from their due penalties, what in the world makes you think anyone other than IBM can afford to defend against this crap?

    The process of resolving patent disputes is only a problem because the reviews are performed by untrained monkeys with no experience in the field they're reviewing. Even the Canadian government has the sense to assign the reviews for R&D claims to workers with industry experience, but not the USPTO.

    Hell no, that'd interfere with the smooth flow of money back through the lobbyists and "donations".

    --
    I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
  70. It gets better by 0x0d0a · · Score: 2, Interesting

    One of the inventors at Microsoft appears to be this gentleman, who works on Apache and is a "founding member of the OpenSSL project". If an OpenSSL guy is unaware of sudo, we're living in Bizarro world.

    But that's not how corporate research works. Nobody cares how good the patents you get are. Microsoft cross-licenses with all their competitors, anyway. Modern corporate researchers just produce legal fodder -- a slew of patents, which can be used to prevent new entrants from entering a field -- existing oligopolies are maintained by cross-licensing of patents.