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More On The International Linear Collider
paragon_au writes "The UK Independent is reporting that details for a purposed 40km long international Linear Collider have been released by 'An international panel of particle physicists [that] decided the high-energy linear collider - a £3bn machine for smashing matter against antimatter - will use revolutionary superconducting technology to shed light on the origin and nature of the universe. Plans for the International Linear Collider have still to be finalised but scientists hope that construction of the underground machine will begin in six years.'"
As much as we all love CERN, Curves don't allow electrons thus no clean experiments. electron collisions are clean and pretty!
That's fine and dandy, but we already know the answer to life, the universe, and everything. What I want to know is, what's the question. Can this thing help?? ;)
It's called the Trans-Canada Highway.
(It's an immature joke so I'm posting it AC.)
a toy that i can finally put to good use, smashing things never gets old!
THe old Superconducting SuperCollider (SSC) is still there, half built in Texas. All the buildings are still intact and the tunnels are still there (just closed off). Would THAT be cheaper. As I recall it was also about 40km in length. I live near that site and I'm sure that we could make someone a HECK of a deal on the site. Of course there are people living nearby now but it's not going to be a hazard. IIRC, The collider at Stanford (SLAC) goes under houses, campus bldgs and a freeway. Oh right, I forgot, common sense and high-energy high $$$ physics projects don't go together.
You forget that no one trusts the US anymore.
Your half built SSC is curved.
We could revisit reactivating the SSC project, but that's a different debate.
Letter To Iran
Damn intolerant fool, your anti-americanism is getting the better of you.
I can hear the scientists planning this now...
"Okay, we'll make this like, really huge collider and we'll smash matter and anti-matter together really fast, like SSSSKRKKRAASSSH. Oh man, this will be so awesome."
German lab wins linear collider contest
Particle physicists have chosen to base the proposed International Linear Collider on superconducting technology developed by an international collaboration centred on the DESY lab in Germany. The superconducting approach was chosen by an international panel ahead of a rival technology developed at Stanford in the US and the KEK lab in Japan. The eagerly-awaited decision was announced at the International Conference on High Energy Physics in Beijing today.
The 30-km-long International Linear Collider (ILC) will collide electrons and positrons together at energies of at least 500 billion electron volts. Particle physicists will use the ILC to make detailed studies of the Higgs boson and any other new particles, such as supersymmetric particles, that might be discovered at the Large Hadron Collider (LHC). It is envisaged that the ILC will turn on by around the middle of the next decade, about eight years after the start up of the LHC, which is currently being built at CERN in Geneva.
Is this the answer to God, the universe and all that?
Physicists plan £3bn experiment in a 20-mile long tunnel
They call it the God particle: a mysterious sub-atomic fragment that permeates the entire universe and explains how everything is the way it is. Nobody has ever seen the God particle; some say it doesn't exist but, in the ultimate leap of faith, physicists across the world are preparing to build one of the most ambitious and expensive science experiments the world has ever seen to try to find it.
ITER Impasse Illustrates Challenge of Site Selection
its tough being anti-american and an american at the same time...I actually like myself... but I completely understand the rest of the world not wanting to give our government their money. Which is exactly why good foriegn policy is so important to a nation. Our science is directly and negatively affected by the anti-science position of the current Administration. I was trying not to rant...I think I explained my points.
it puts the antimatter in the particle accelerator or it gets the non-unified description of our Universe.
:o) but einstein's special theory of relativity was instigated by the simple idea that acceleration and gravity are equivalent.
btw, here's an idea. so string theorists say that electromagnetism and other stuff is caused by extra dimensions that are too small to see. what i was thinking a couple days ago during a heat lightning storm, is that it relates to another part of string theory. namely the idea that our universe is like a soap bubble among a conglomerate. then the extra dimensions could be the axes to adjacent universes. perfect.
keep in mind that cosmology/quantum mechanics are non-intuitive.
If you need text styles to communicate then you don't have a message.
Wasnt this supposed to be combined with the new free electron laser build there? That the electron part of the collider would also feed the FEL?
HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?
I see scientists getting skate boards, or roller blades on and hurting them selfs as they have jousting tournaments in the thing. On the up side, I bet they will come up with some really bad ass new kinds of armor as a result of this project... maybe even some cool really fast skate boards.
Note: this has been posted by r.future (a person who spends way to much time on the internet!)
Despite the incredible importance of this research - not to mention basic research in general - it was dismissed as a boondoggle and sandbox for particle physicists.
More reading: Science and Patriotism run amok in Texas
As for being anti-american at the same time as being American, it's not tough at all. We've always had the most vehement American haters home grown. Their are blacks that are racist against blacks, men sexist against men, and there are certainly Americans who are anti-US. Want to change international perception, than help encourage the US to build big science projects like this. The US needs to once more be the worlds top destination for scientists, and this is one of the ways of doing so.
Never before has a nation worked so hard to give away and abandon it's lead in technology.
"Proposed"
That is all.
namely the idea that our universe is like a soap bubble among a conglomerate. then the extra dimensions could be the axes to adjacent universes. perfect.
Do a Google for 'brane theory' -- it is similar to what you appear to be thinking of.
but einstein's special theory of relativity was instigated by the simple idea that acceleration and gravity are equivalent.
That would be 'general theory' -- special relativity deals solely with unaccelerated frames of reference.
Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
This sounds strangely like the plot-line from Half-Life... Do I smell a prequel?
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Make Love not [Browser] War!
Might as well bring up the mention of strange matter before some other paranoid ninny does. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strangelet . Unlikely it could be made, but I'm sure the same people who worry about neutron emissions and world destroying asteroids will like this also.
...again.
Isn't that ALWAYS what they say about these things? Nobody ever says "This is to help us built anti-matter bombs."
That said, sounds exciting, let me go ahead and echo what the other poster said WTF happened to the SSC?
I think they should build it....
;)
oh, I don't know, maybe 40 or so km from SCO's headquarters?
liqbase
While I understand that electron/positron collisions require the linear accelerator, doesn't a lot of this hinge upon the discovery of the Higgs boson? I mean, basically, this whole project is being built with the assumption that the Higgs boson both exists and will be possible to study in a 40 km LinAc. I'm all for new particle accelerators, but I'm also all for not using money needlessly. It seems to me that it would be prudent to delay starting a project of this magnitude and international importance until we're sure that all the hypotheses regarding the Higgs boson are correct. Additionally, the whole "superconducting accelerator" thing is hardly new. The Tevatron at Fermilab (which is the fifth stage of a five-stage particle accelerator) already uses superconducting magnets. Anyone happen to know if this LinAc is any different from that (other than the obvious straight/curved difference) or if journalists just like to say "revolutionary superconducting technology" as if they know what they're talking about?
The article and talks a great deal about discovering the origins of matter. I am not a physicists so I really don't know the answer to why this takes precedence over other scientific problems, for example discovering a cure to cancer or AIDS?
3 billion is a lot of money, and I am sure there are AIDS or cancer researchers who badly need it, and I can actually see a benefit to humanity in those cases.
I am not against spending 3 billion on science just for the sake of improving humanity, in many cases we have discovered some wonderful things, but I was just wondering, are we going to say "Ah, that's how it works!" and then shut the machine down because there isn't a practical use for knowing the origins of matter or are there projects to actually make use of the results in the pipeline?
From what I understand, we need at least 1 Trillion eV collisions in order to judge whether or not the higgs particle or supersymmetry are physical realities. But for the press releases,I get the impression that this project, at least in the eralier stages, is only meant to act as support for the LHC (i.e. refined versions of sub-TeV experiments done there). Why not ,go for the big prize right away?
You're absolutely right: humanity is facing some immediate, pressing problems: the environment, overpopulation, soil & water depletion, and disease as you mentioned.
For the most part however, these are human problems, with human solutions. We know what causes overpopulation, and that in turn results in environmental damage, starvation etc. We also know what causes AIDs; and its spread is more a result of governmental unwillingness to educate their populations and promote safe sexual practices, than lack of medical technology. Likewise, cancer is largely a Western disease, and diet & lifestyle plays a large part in the likelihood one gets it: it's for the most part preventable.
But here we are, in a Universe. While we've made significant progress, we still don't really know what the hell it is. What are the rules? What makes everything happen? How did it come to be? Pursuing the answers to these fundamental questions is natural human curiosity, and the same drive that has led to many of our other scientific and technological advancements.
Knowing the answers may not be of use to the average person, other than possibly having another neat formula to put on T-shirts. But having a complete model of how the universe works, may result in many spin-off technologies. I'm speculating, but they may include things like quantum propulsion, true nanoscale engineering, new materials development... who knows.
Politicians are going to be idiots and let people die of preventable diseases, breed until they wipe out the natural world, etc. But should particle physicists simple twiddle their thumbs while humanity consumes itself; or busy themselves seeking a better understanding of the cosmos we inhabit, and perhaps giving us better tools to improve our world and ourselves?
Live simply, that others may simply live. -Gandhi
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Research into cancer and AIDS is a branch of biochemistry.
- Biochemistry depends on science like DNA sequencing and protein folding
- DNA sequencing and protein folding need fast computers
- Fast computers need leading-edge engineering and physics.
- The structure of DNA was clarified partly as a result of X-ray analysis
- The discovery of X-rays was a byproduct of pure research into conduction of electricity in gases
We have no way to be certain that deeper insights into the fundamental structure of matter will contribute to solving other biological problems - but we have no ay to find out other than to do it.You might also like to consider that $3billion is less than drug companies spend on advertising and promotion every year.
Panurge has posted for the last time. Thanks for the positive moderations.
I agree. One really exciting conceptual propulsion system is the idea of being able to push against the quantum vacuum that underlies all of reality.
A simplistic metaphor would be to imagine someone in zero-G trying to move around; then putting them in water and letting them swim. Chemical propulsion means you have to carry all the mass with you that you push against in order to propel yourself. With "Space Drive", you would still need to expend energy; but presumably much less than with current methods.
Nasa: Ideas Based On What We'd Like To Achieve
Nasa: Some Emerging Possibilities
Live simply, that others may simply live. -Gandhi
FROM A PHYSICIST:
First Why. Natural Science is a lot like mining. Physicists discover things about nature. They attempt to put together an idea of how the fundamental works, both large and small, and create methods to predict phenomena based on these ideas. Applied Physicists and Engineers then take this knowledge and ask themselves the question "How might I use this for mankinds advantage". A simple example is the transister. The transistor could be the most powerful invention of the last century. But, without the knowledge of quantum mechanics discovered by natural physicists the transistor would never be. Natural physicists mine for the knowledge that will be later used for application. Their are countless examples of this from maxwell and wireless applicatons, certainly quantum mechanics and solid state technology, and even general relativity and GPS satellites.
Second Linear Collider vs SSC, etc: The linear collider is not a discovery machine per se. It is a precision measurement machine meant to refine knowledge about discoveries that will be made by the Large Hadron Collider which is being built in Europe. Natural physics isn't about finding a particle alone. This does nothing for us. It's about building and understanding a model of nature that can later be used to predict phenomena as accurately as possible. Neither of these machines is focused on a single particle (HIGGS, SUSY, etc.) Saying so is the equivalent of saying we're building a workbench to put together only rocking chairs. Our 'workbench' is an experiment meant to study interactions spanning the entire current model of nature. It is an expensive tool, but keep in mind once it is built it will last 20-30 years (fermilab as an example). I don't believe it's very expensice considering this keeps the flow of technology rolling.
Superconducting: The magnets proposed are revolutionary because they will be at 2 kelvin. Fermilab operates at 70+.
That's probably not the first thing they'll do, but not because it's not interesting. In most theories, the energies needed to directly explore quantum gravity (string theory, M-theory, etc.) in this way are more than 15 orders of magnitude higher than this accelerator can achieve. The first order of business is to look for physics at the TeV energy scale, such as the Higgs boson and supersymmetry.
There will, of course, also be people sifting through the data looking for the things you describe - low-energy effects of quantum gravity, evidence for extra dimensions, and so forth. People are already looking for such things in Tevatron data.
and we pronounce linacs as 'linacs'.
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
Want to change international perception, than help encourage the US to build big science projects like this. The US needs to once more be the worlds top destination for scientists, and this is one of the ways of doing so.
Suppose the USA builds a great scientific project and invite scientist from all over the world, what will happen? Half of them won't be let into the USA for 'security reasons'.
"Long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead." (John Maynard Keynes)
einstein's special theory of relativity was instigated by the simple idea that acceleration and gravity are equivalent.
Errr, no. It was General Relativity.
"Long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead." (John Maynard Keynes)
From the article:
"Last year, physicists accurately measured for the first time how the universe is composed. They found that only 4 per cent of it was made up of visible atoms, with the rest being mysterious dark matter and dark energy - neither of which entities can be seen."
SF author Ted Sturgeon once noted that "90% of everything is crap" (he actually said "crud", but "crap" sounds better). So, according to the article, they refined the estimate to 96%. How many more digits of precision will $5B get us?