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Build Your Own Hybrid-Electric Car?
BlueJay465 writes "On almost every news outlet, everyone is talking about the price of oil, both foreign and domestic. This sent me to do some research on what it would take to keep the investment in my current vehicle, while getting the added benefits of hybrid-electric technology at the lowest price. One company, Sigma Automotive, has already jumped on that bandwagon, and will soon be offering a kit for your car engine that will boost performance and increase fuel-economy by adding all the extra electronics, hardware and capacity (avail. Q3-Q4 2004). My question is, how much would it cost to really 'Do It Yourself' using off-the-shelf parts?"
I read through their site, and while I am vaguely skeptical of things like the lifespan of the Super Capacitor Battery Pack and I2R losses system wide the basic theory is sound.
It seems like the product right now is targetted at people who want an extra 35 b.h.p. "off the line". And if you do a lot of stop-and-go driving, that could help a lot.
In my gut, I think a fully electrical transmission would provide better systemic efficiency, but that would be nowhere near a bolt-on system. (I base that on: the specific consumption of any I.C. engine is lowest when it is near it's peak output. Any system that is predicated on running the engine at variable speed (i.e. using a traditional mechanical transmission) is going to, by necessity, run the engine most of the time away from it's peak efficiency. I would be willing to hear the argument that the gain of running the engine at peak efficiency would be offset by the losses in the motor-generator pair. (If so, why has it been the standard technology in railway traction for over fifty years?)
How does the Slashdot Effect happen given that no slashdotters ever RTFA?
Cheers,
Erick
http://www.busyweather.com/
A performance part to me.....Hell, the website is devoted to such parts
$2800 MSRP (according to the FAQ) seems like a hell of a lot to me, considering the fact that it is not a true hybrid conversion, but rather, a bolt-on part.
But really, how many people will spend that much for what seems to be a little gain in performance? Maybe the tax break helps?
-thewldisntenuff
My MythTV HowTo
It may not be too prevalent in electric motors, but there's a demon that lives in power transmissions, especially where shafts are involved. It's called tortional vibration. It's a close relative to harmonic vibration of the type that tears poorly designed bridges down in heavy winds. Automotive companies are able to tweak a design until all or most of the tortional vibration is ironed out, then they mass produce. Building a one-off unit, you'll have to resolve these issues, as they may crop up, on your own.
BTM
That was the turning point of my life--I went from negative zero to positive zero.
Grease Car offers conversion kits to run your diesel car off of vegetable oil for a mere $800. It may seem like a half-baked idea, but it's really not; also, most restaurants will give you their used oil for free, and after filtering you have a virtually unlimited fuel supply. Saves you money, saves the environment, and helps eliminate our oil dependancy.
Remove the main pulley on the engine, and replace it with a special toothed one for this rig. Remove the alternator. Hell, remove the starter while you're at it. Put the special bracket on the engine. Mount the Integrated Starter Generator (the term has been around long before this product was announced) on the bracket. Use the toothed belt to connect the ISG to the main pulley. Mount the electronics box and connect it to the whole thing. Congratulations: you now have what's known as a light hybrid vehicle. The ISG can provide regenerative braking and off-the-line torque. Technically, you can kill the engine while you're sitting at the light, and the ISG has enough horsepower to spin the engine to operating speed (roll-starting it, essentially) and get you started off the line.
Ford has been playing with a prototype system similar to this. They got about 15% improvement in fuel economy. Considering the increased costs involved, they decided it wasn't worth it. Not for a measly 3-4 MPG on an Escape. For an Excursion, you're talking 1-2 more MPG.
Don't get me wrong; this helps. Just not as much as you might hope. It's a good step in the right direction, in an attempt to help reduce the fuel consumption of existing vehicles. And, as they mention, since there are NO internal modifications to the engine, it's a bolt-on accessory which your typical shade-tree mechanic could probably install on a Saturday.
... by the Dew of Mountains the thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning
The toyata prius has a very special system that deals with this, as this page shows. Especially with hybrid SUV's coming out soon, building your own hybrid seems like it would be way too much work.
Also keep in mind, that right now making a hybrid car (for a major automanufacturer) costs several thousand dollars more than making an equivalent conventional car mostly because they don't have enough mass production on the hybrid parts, and they are making thousands and thousands of cars. Buying the parts individually, the price would be outragous.
This message is encrypted with Quad ROT-13 to protect the author's copyright under the DMCA.
Having looked recently at the state of California's DMV website that there are a number of ILEV (compressed natural gas, electricity, etc.) equivalents of current vehicles (Dodge Caravan, etc.). Are these just normal cars, made to fit ILEV standards by use of kits as well? If you're in California this may interest you, since ILEV vehicles (assuming they pass SULEV standards, which most ILEV *and* hybrid cars do) can drive in the HOV lanes w/o meeting HOV passenger standards.
:/
Unfortunately, though I've heard some debate on this regarding current events, the state of California does not allow hybrid cars in the HOV lanes w/o a second passenger. This seems funny, since my Toyota Prius gets ~50 MPG, meaning its consuming less than half that - and often closer to a third - of most large SUVs. One person using gas in a 50 mpg vehicle still means less consumption than 2 using a 15-20, and the whole point of the HOV lane was to promote conservation.
Moo
I'm not sure, but something tells me this will void the warranty.
i get about 5 litres for a hundred kms, which is good, but driving in it is offputting cause it makes virtually no noise. the first few times were too wierd, and when you stop at lights it turns off completely as if you'd stalled (but hadn't).
-- robin.shannon.id.au This work is licensed under the Creative Commons Recombo Plus License.
Dixie College in St. George, Utah offers a class where you provide your own pickup truck, and make the truck completely electric.
You use a pickup truck because the allows you to fill the bed with batteries (1 layer deep) and then build a nice looking cover for it and still use the bed of the truck.
It is all electric, not hybrid.
The cost is $8,000, not including the vehicle.
What I really want to know is if hybrids built using Toyota's hybrid engine, which is a FULL hybrid (meaning it can operate on electricity only, using no gas), can be "filled" with electricity?
For instance, if fully charged it can go 50 miles on electricity only, can I plug it in every night and go 50 miles a day and never use gas?
Then, maybe you could build a small trailer like they pull behind Goldwing motorcycles and extend your range...
Now the state govt. has stepped in and want him to pay state fuel tax on the fuel what he makes and uses himself....
If he were making it and selling it to others, I could see their point...but jeez!
Yes, and my computer tends to run faster when I'm wearing a blue shirt too. Our "war" didn't do one thing either for or against our allies economies... they were tanking right along with ours because of a certain .com bubble a few years back. Oh and the oil prices? Speculators in the American market bid up the oil when it looked as though the S. Arabian monarchy was in political trouble. It was AMERICAN investors that caused our oil spike by creating an artificial demand for crude, by speculating on further price increases (which didn't happen). There isn't and hasn't been a decrease in world oil supplies, just an increase in those wishing to purchase some of it. If you want to have a political agenda please do so, but do not disguise your feelings about the war in Iraq by complaining about oil prices. They aren't connected.
The Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) Dragsters may not have an electric motor configured to add power to the wheels.
"He's a real midnight golfer"
There were plans for hybrid cars in the 70's. Plans were available in the back of every Popular Science magazine. You started with an old Pinto or Vega, put in a Briggs & Stratton lawnmower engine, and some kind of big electric motor. I was ready to build one till I figured out I'd have to pop the hood every morning and crank up the engine with a pull cord.
Wasn't that the cover story of every issue of Popular Mechanics during the 80's? It's nice to see /. appealing to my aging tastes.
jeff
The return seems pretty slim for the amount of hassle and cost that you will put yourself through. Making huge powertrain and weight modifications to your car will likely have unexpected and bad consequences, which you will be on your own to fix.
IMHO, if you are truly economically sensitive to gas prices, I suggest that you buy a '94 or '95 Toyota Tercel/Corolla, Ford Escort or Honda Civic. You'll easily get 35-45mpg with these cars and spend a grand total of $3-5k for the whole vehicle.
If you want to make a statement about "saving" the environment, move closer to work.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
For an Excursion, you're talking 1-2 more MPG.
Don't count on that. Much of the fuel costs on a big vehicle like an Excursion are spent in starting it from a dead stop. I own a diesel Excursion, and it can get 22 mpg (usually more like 18.5) on the highway, but get into stop and go, and it plummets to 13.5. The gas ones are much worse.
Ford has a prototype transmission for the "SuperDuty" chassis (F-[250,350,450,550], and Excursion) that uses pressurized nitrogen to effect regenerative braking, and use the captured energy to get the rig rolling again. Apparently it makes quite a difference, but it's not in production. Personally, I'd like to see a full diesel electric traction system.
Here is an interesting related interview. Also check out the specs for these ultracapacitors. The key benefit of capacitors over batteries is in deep discharge, near instantaneous bursts of current. It takes the load off your bulk storage supply, allowing them to operate more efficiently.
I still can't buy a hybrid flexible fuel vehicle, so I can shift my usage over to a more renewable source. This system opens up some options though. I like!
Aside: The regenerative braking aspect of all hybrids is a hidden bonus for the wear on the mechanical systems too. I've had my hybrid for almost two years now and the brake pads aren't anywhere near their first 10% worn-down state.
--The more you know, the less you know.
i wouldn't drive one if i didn't need it to get up my fucken driveway in the winter.
pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
If you want to really save money and do something cool, go for an all-electric car. With lithium battery chemistries, the range is good. There are plenty of companies that offer help in retrofitting old ICE cars to be electric. The big problem here is that automotive-scale lithium batteries are not in mass-production yet so they are very expensive. The battery pack on a lithium-powered electric could cost in the tens of thousands. This is not because the materials that make up a lithium battery are inherently expensive; they just aren't mass-produced in large enough sizes and quantities yet.
As a further advantage, all-electric cars have much less maintenance. Hybrid cars should have more maintenance than regular ICE cars because hybrids have everything a regular ICE car has, plus all the electric stuff, plus a complicated way to interface the two of them.
Maybe if you do almost all stop-and-go city driving, hybrids have some advantage, but I think they are just a boondoggle. If you don't want to buy gas, then go 100% electric, but don't think that bolting on a bunch of electric parts to your current ICE is going to do much more than have you pay a hefty up-front fee to save a trickle of gas over the next decade.
The block and crank and bearings were not strong enough for the much higher forces in a diesel engine, and the Olds diesel had poor reliability.
People who bought a Mercedes diesel did fine, but the money they spent on the car was never recovered in fuel savings.
People who bought a diesel volksvagen rabbit did fine too, but that car had poor acceleration, I've driven one, and merging onto the highway is not pleasant. Also, when replacing the oil filter, renember to torque it to 65 foot-lbs (or whatever it says in the service manual) or the gasket will blow out.
8^0
Shaving 3 seconds off of your 1/4 is pretty tough... 3 seconds off of your 0-60 is even tougher, unless you have a car that's REALLY underpowered to begin with.
Especially since the main advantage of electric motors is low-speed torque (good for rice rockets, not nearly as much improvement for monster V8s) - While an electric motor can make a HUGE difference at the very low end, that is also where traction is a large problem, nullifying much of the motor's advantage.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
1. Remove the gas cap.
2. Move remainder of car off the driveway.
3. Attach a Toyota Prius or Civic Hybrid to the gas cap.
Seriously, it seems like it would be very difficult and expensive to make this work, and even if you did somehow succeed, most states would require you to get the car smogged or otherwise inspected, which could prove difficult after such extensive modifications. If you want an inexpensive hybrid, I suggest a 2001 or 2002 model Prius. They're cheap because everyone wants the 2004 model.
Hear recorded Slashdot headlines on your phone! New service beta testing. Just call (248) 434-5508
for example:
2004 Lamborghini Gallardo 1/4 mile time is 12.40 seconds
1999 Honda Civic Si 1/4 mile time is 15.70
Imagine, with just this one device installed on a totally stock Honda, you can bring it into the same league as a Lamborghini...
has nothing to do with the mechanical brakes other than that it takes some of the load off them.
Remember that any DC motor can work equally well as a generator. In regenerative braking, the motor becomes a generator providing mechanical resistance to slow the vehicle and the energy produced is fed to the energy storage device, either batteries or super capacitor where it can later be recovered and used over.
Actually this is fairly common practice in certain types of traction (cabled) elevators where the motion of the elevator car, say, up in the case of an empty cab with counter-weights heavier than the cab, actually pushes power back into the 3 phase power lines. There are no big resistors needed to consume the energy produced when the drive motor becomes a generator. This is efficient in terms of energy consumption.
Mechanical brakes on elevators are normally set only after the cab is electrically stopped and held at floor level.
"Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain
"Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain
The University of Tulsa Hurricane Motor Works converted a Geo Metro as well as built several one-off concept cars from ground-up.
A look at the converted Geo is here. It was retitled the "Paradyne."
A much cooler looking HEV, though, is the Proxima, which was built ground-up. I was on the team that built and designed the car. The design and material cost for this car, being built from ground up (I kid you not. I remember nights out there with a heat gun, hot glue, and pipe making the frame and shaping the body) is way out there.
I don't remember the costs of the conversion for the Metro, since I wasn't involved, but someone interested in the numbers could certainly write and ask. Contact information is on our webpage, or you could IM me, and I could ask next time I am around the HMW.
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"We are Linux. Resistance is measured in Ohms."
According to Autotrader.com, I am supposed to get around 25 MPG with my 4-cyl 1994 Honda Accord, however I generally get about 29 to 31. This means I'm spending 20% less at the pump each month. If you spend roughly $100 a month on gas, this is a good way to save $20 ($140 a year!).
Yes, locomotives use a hybrid power system, but it's (usually) all based on electric conversion: The engine drives an alternator, and the power from the alternator drives traction motors (avoiding batteries). Dynamic regeneration is usually not used: when dynamic braking, all power from the traction motors are radiated out the dynamic braking grids as heat.
Brought to you by the makers of http://www.tornado-fuelsaver.tv/?source=gg&camp=tf &grp=name&term=tornado%20fuel%20saver
If it sounds to good to be true, guess what.
And for regenerative braking you need an actual motor attached to the wheels.
Redesign the engine for better fuel efficiency.
:-) Thanks to the arrival of low-sulfur fuels, it means we can use the latest in ceramic catalytic converters that will also reduce exhaust emissions to Super Ultra-Low Emissions Vehicle (SULEV) levels without worries about sulfur compounds ruining the catalytic converter.
Thanks to the phasing in of low-sulfur gasoline (petrol) and diesel fuel here in the USA starting in 2005, we can apply the latest in fuel-delivery systems and exhaust emission controls to improve fuel efficiency AND reduce harmful exhaust emissions.
In the case of gasoline engines, the switch to direct fuel injection (where fuel is directly injected into the combustion chamber) could improve fuel efficiency in the range of 15 to 20 percent!
In the case of diesel engines, the arrival of low-sulfur diesel fuel means we can use common-rail direct fuel injection for very precise fuel delivery and also use the latest in diesel engine catalytic converters that will remove diesel exhaust particulates in addition to dramatically reducing other harmful exhaust gases. By switching minivans, SUV's and light trucks to these new cleaner diesel engines it means these class of vehicles can get 35-50 percent improvements in fuel efficiency compared to the current gasoline engines being used.
We could grow almost all the oil we need, certainly enough to make a huge dent in imports, on a couple hundred square miles of the Senora Desert. I know it's ecologically sensitive but I think for oil independence the scorpions, mice and other critters can just deal with it.
Why aren't we doing this now? Guess it couldn't be because we have an oil family with connections to the Saudi Royal family in office? Or big oil companies with too much influence over elected officials? Nah, must be some other really good reason.
I've talked to these people, I think they could really do it. Probably could've built the whole project for about half of what we've spent on Iraq. So, which would get us farther? Invading Iraq or cutting back on our oil imports?
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
1. US is expected to consume an average of average 20.43 million barrels per day this year.
4. Therefore the US would need to produce approximately 510 million gallons of biological oil to supply it's current demand. (Assuming all oil is used for cars. Which I know it's not)
2. A barrel of oil contains 42 gallons (159 liters) will yield between 19 - 20 gallons (75 liters) of gasoline.
3. Biodiesel yield = oil yield x 0.8 approx. http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html
5. Rice will produce almost twice as much oil per acre as soy beans (88 gallons to 48 gallons)
6. Rapeseed will produce 127 gallons of oil per acre.
7. The Oil Palm produces 635 gallons of oil per acre.
8. The US would need to havest 6283 square miles of rapeseed per day to supply it's current demands.
9. That translates to 2.3 million square miles of rapeseed per year.
10. That's the equivalent of planting and clear cutting Texas 10 times a year.
The reason for having electric drive is simple once you realize the previous facts. First, there's simply a direct shaft from the engine to the alternator or generator (Trains can be both AC and DC). That means no gears at all, and no clutch or torque converter. The wires from our generator can run to the drive motors in any manner that they wish. Finally, they connect to the wheels directly, with no gearing. Note that the speed that the engine is turning is completely independent of the speed of the wheels. This allows improved efficiency, and it lets you have any torque at zero velocity. Furthermore, note that we also have maximum torque starting out, and trains really need it when someone decides to save money by putting fewer engines on a larger consist. Even though it suffers from all the inefficiency of the two conversions, it can always run at the engine's sweet spot. However, the fuel efficiency isn't as big of a problem as it seems. Once a train is rolling, they need very little power to keep it going. The fuel that is used in the engines is also not the kind of stuff that you would put in your car, or your tractor for that matter. It's like high-sulfur 30 weight, and it costs less than any other petroleum product short of road tar.
"Anyone who attempts to generate random numbers by deterministic means is living in a state of sin." -- John von Neumann
The inefficiency really stems from accelerating a 6,000lb vehicle up to 25mph, stopping, accelerating, stopping, etc. At idle, most modern engines are not abysmally inefficient but continuously accelerating a heavy vehicle with a large engine is where you lose most of your mileage to. But you're right, this thing should help dead stop acceleration fuel consumption, so long as it isn't snake oil.
Slashdot is proof that Sturgeon's Law applies to mankind.
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So true....however....
In an SD70MAC, there are 12 wheels, which are still geared to the electric motors.
What makes the AC engine so neat is that they first generate AC power (all of them do) which is then converted to DC for control (don't know why they do this) and then converted back to AC. They do this because an AC motor can handle a stall without burning up, something HEAVY freights tend to have happen.
An SD70M (SD stands for "Special Duty", 70 was once the engine designation though I doubt that still applies, and the M is for widecab), uses DC motors, but still has AC alternators that are then converted to DC. The large radiator fans on the roof are resister grids to dissipate the excess power as well as cool the prime mover. When using regenerative braking (dynamics for railroaders), there motors are acting as generators, but the power has nowhere to go, so they go into a second set of resisters. When the DC motors stall, they heat up very quickly which can damage the windings.
Rolling resistance may be small, but the locomotove still have a huge job moving the trains along. They don't "just get moving", the have to deal with grades and curves which sap forward movement. If you have ever paced a heavy freight through hilly country, you would know how powerful these machine really are. There are few things as exciting as 24,000 hp throttling up to climb a grade.
Fritz
___________Huh?