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MST3K Rightsholders Sue Over Theater Commentary
An anonymous reader writes "How can people who parody people sue people who parody them?
Mr. Sinus is being sued by Best Brains Inc. the owners of the rights to Mystery Science Theatre 3000 because they are using a name/format that is too similar to their own.
Here is the story." Evil thought: Apple should include a "three silhouettes yakking on merged soundtrack" mode in iMovie.
Presentations of Mr. Sinus, which was previously known as Mr. Sinus Theater 3000, have Pollet, Egerton and Erler sitting in the cinema's front row, poking fun at chosen movies by making silly comments and signing songs.
I have to say that in this case, I agree that the big corporation is probably in the right. Three guys trying to cash in on MST3K fame, literally using the same acronym and doing the exact same thing, heckling bad movies. They're not making fun of MST3K, they're just ripping off their format.
While I would certainly watch, and probably laugh heartily, methinks they might lose this one.
Alamo Drafthouse approached us maybe about a year ago about licensing Mr. Sinus
This is interesting because the Drafthouse apparently saw the similarity and tried to nip it in the bud (a.k.a. cover their ass) with a license, but is still presenting the group and allowing them to continue with the same format/name.
That format would be sitting in a theater and making fun of a bad movie? Guess they better start suing most groups of teenagers I've ever seen at a movie
i think it's fair enough that he doesn't want them to use the Mystery Science Theatre 3000 name since it's more adult themed than MST3K is. I wouldn't mind showing MST3K to pretty much any kid, so their recalcitrance to license it seems completely reasonable. There's no patent on commenting on movies (yet) so the austin people should just change their schtik a little.
"We just want them to stop using our name," he says.
I agree. Choose a different name, guys. Exercise some creativity.
I don't think they're parodying a parody, they're just flat out ripping off someone elses parody.
Probably none, including the person who posted the article, and the people who approved it.
They deliberately used the name of the show (the acronym) and approached the owners for the rights. They weren't doing a parody of the show format, they were attempting to capitalize on it.
Not the same thing as just doing a commentary, or even a Rocky Horror Picture Show type presentation (which let's face it, is what MST3K rips off in the first place to some extent).
ChuckyG
They should just call it Austin Theater and leave it at that. It was their instance on keeping the MST3k name that got Best Brains angry. The name "Mister Sinus" is obscure enough to cause confusion to anyone who didn't get the MST3K reference, which would be unnecessary unless they were just trying to drum up publicity. Oh, wait...
Mr. Sinus and Mystery Science are one syllable and a slight intonation apart from each other - pronounce both names out loud, the names of the groups are almost identical. If you're going to almost exactly steal someone's idea, don't do it like these guys did. If the guys who made Mister Sinus don't get their asses kicked in court, something's wrong with copyright law.
"We just want them to stop using our name," he says.
Okay, those comedians are dumb for choosing such an obviously similar name. I have no sympathy for them; they should change it immediately. They could call themselves "Three Jackasses".
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Seriously, though, I'm with Best Brains on this one. If you're going to rip off the MST3K format (*cough*BeavisandButthead*cough*), at least do something different with it (*cough*BeavisandButthead*cough* - oh, wait, I didn't need to cough that time). Even the name of this group is taking the piss! 'Mr Sinus Theater 3000'? What, do they call themselves Mick Napoleon, Blackbird R Tobor and Tim Smallmotor?
You must think in Russian.
How strange and scary!
Are they ripping of the format? I don't know, hell I don't care.
If the first stand up comedian would have patented his bit that would have set us back a few laughs. Wouldn't it.
Ever seen the amazing resemblance between Richard Pryor and Eddy Murphy's stand up bits? Ever seen the similarities between Dennis Leary and Bill Hicks? Ever really looked at Lenny Bruce and seen the groundwork for everything that came after that?
All entertainers start out by copying there idols. Only the good ones surpass them. Rarely is ever do they forgive them.
All this legislation crap makes me sick to my stomach. It used to be cool to be copied. It meant you were doing something GOOD, worth copying. Artist, programmers, writers, they wore it like a badge of recognition. Now they wine like little kids. Sad, sad, sad!!
For those who gripe about this being another big corporation squelching the little guy, you should know that last I heard, Best Brains was Jim Mallon (the producer of the show) and some office staff. They are the littlest of guys, and because of rights issues (which they respect), they can't distribute a good chunk of their own show's run. So protecting what little they have doesn't seem out of hand to me.
Aside from having a name too close to the original, the idea is hardly original. How many times have you sat in a Saturday afternoon matinee and heard a few jokers in the front moking the film? (Ok, maybe never happened to you, but has to me and occasionally I've been one of them.)
"Togehter I shall rule the world!" -- Tom Servo
BTW, didn't the original guy who did this show get screwed by rightsholders?
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
its fun!
MST3k isnt suing because they are using the format, they are suing because they practicaly used the same name and then tried to make money. They knew exaclty what they were doing because they actualy tried to obtain licensing and mst3k rejected it because they did not like the way that mst3k would be portrayed. This isnt a parody of mst3k, its somone stealing the mst3k format and using it to make money.
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Yep not even comedy like Mystery Science Theatre is safe from being ripped off by people who can't even come up with their own parody format.
They named themselves "Mister Sinus Theater 3000" and do the same skit with adult humor.
Mister Sinus Theater 3000 sounds almost exactly like Mystery Science Theater 3000 when said out loud. No one is going to confuse Muppets in Space since they aren't similar to the trademark.
If there is a name conflict, then there is a trademark case, but otherwise, get over it.
Did you RTFA? Best Brains isn't asking them to change their format. They're asking them to stop using their name for it - specificially becuase it's a trademark issue. (The complaint is that the show "Mister Sinus Theatre 3000" is blatantly meant to cash in on the Best Brains trademark, but it's being attached to a show that Best Brains doesn't want their name attached to.)
It's not a case of "stop doing this thing thats a little similar to something we did". It's a case of "stop trying to use our name and thereby associate us with it."
And remember, with trademarks, the trademark owner has to be a bit of a over-reactive jerk about it or the trademark gets Frisbeed.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
Frankly, I think MST3k is using their trademark to stifle the creativity of another artist working in the same form. For me personally that kind of expression trumps trademark law -- as I said in my previous post, a judge may not agree with me, but I of course have truth on my side ;^). They are not just copying mst3k; they added themes not present in the original and are making humourous commentary on it.
Incidentally, I don't think you can trademark the "format" any more than you could be sued for expressing yourself using a sonnet or limerick. They can trademark the name and the characters, but not the idea of sitting in a theater cracking jokes about stupid movies. (In fact, the latter is something I was doing long before MST ever came out).
All that said, if I were the artists, I would probably change the name if the MST3k guys asked me to. But I just don't think they should be legally forced to. They are expressing themselves and in the process making fun of and paying tribute to another artist.
It is like the singer El Vez -- he dresses and looks like Elvis, he copies his song formats, and does something different yet entertaining with it. I don't know if Elvis is trademarked but if the company that owns that trademark sued El Vez I think they should lose. I don't think this case is any different. Perhaps the parody of MST3k is lame, but it is not the law's job to differentiate between clever parody and lame parody.
BTW, didn't the original guy who did this show get screwed by rightsholders?
I missed Joel too. Mike just wasnt as funny in delivery. Maybe because Joel always had that "just rolled out of bed after three hours of sleep and smoked a joint" delivery.
"The guys doing this show sound like hacks."
"If I had to put money down, I'd Mr. Sinus are interested in dick/fart jokes and "racy" humor. But I haven't seen their show, so it's only speculation."
And I'd gladly take the money you'd put down. You are right on one thing - you're only speculating. Yes, the show does contain dick/fart jokes and "racy" humor, but the vast majority of the humor is inline with that of MST3k.
Did they rip off MST3k? Well, they most certainly used it as the foundation of their show. The cancelling of MST3k was the inspiration for putting on the first shows - which at the time wasn't very far off from your "college kids" analogy.
But dick and fart jokes? Well, if you knew about the drafthouse, you'd understand why the humor can be "racy." The drafthouse is more like a dinner theater than a movie theater. They removed every other row of seating, installed tables (more like a short bar) instead, and sell food, drinks and beer. You have to be at least 18 year old to be in the theater. (http://www.drafthouse.com/) So, it's an older audience than saturday morning on Sci-Fi. The humor can be, and in such a venue is even expected, to be dirtier and racier. However, the balance between blue and non-blue humor is very well done. The Mr. Sinus guys are much better than just "hacks."
Plus, Mr. Sinus takes on movies that MST3k wouldn't ever take on. MST3k basically stuck to B-movies in the Mystery or Sci-fi catagory. Dirty Dancing and Top Gun would fall into neither of those. And, as their theme song states: They can do shows with nudity.
The differences in venue and movie types is enough to give it a different feel than MST3k. It's half MST3k and half the local improv comedy club.
If you're ever in Austin, you need to catch a show. Also, they do shows in Houston from time to time (and San Antonio as well, I believe.)
My karma is in a nose dive
There is no constitutional right to sell hamburgers. There is a constitutional right to express yourself, at least in the US. Trademark law is there to prevent cases of a company deceiving the consumer into confusing brands. The "Sinus theater" may sound a little like "science theater" if you say it 3 times fast, but in real world conversation that confusion can be easily cleared up. I haven't seen the show, but I think it would help them if they had a disclaimer. But being forced to legally change the name because some morons can't tell the difference between a part of your nose and a field of knowledge seems extreme, IMHO.
You mean like "What's up Tiger Lilly" predating MST3K by many years...
The Mr. Sinus guys do witty commentary about movies. Woo. Google for "Wizard People, Dear Readers" for somebody else doing the same thing to Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone. (You can download the MP3 to play along with the movie.) A group called "The Yuppie Pricks" does it to the movie "Office Space" down at the drafthouse from time to time too.
The Sinus guys _don't_ have fake plastic robot hand puppets, they don't have a fake sattelite, their logo is a kite with eyes (not a ball of string planetoid), there's no banter with some mad scientist conducting experiments on them... None of that. They just make fun of movies that haven't aged well, and a few years ago there was no way to explain that to people in a small number of words except "like MST3K". When people started understanding who they were, they backed as far away from that as they could without losing the name they'd built for themselves.
It sounds like the Drafthouse's lawyers invited this by prodding the original guys into action worrying about a contingency that wasn't a problem before they made it one. John, Owen, and Jerm are cool and funny, and they parody their OWN movies. (Not the 1950's drek that MST3K parodied primarily because they didn't have to pay to license them.)
By the way, the Sinus guys can't do DVDs because they're parodying stuff that's still actively under copyright like "The Karate Kid" and "Mac and Me". They DO respect intellectual property, big time. They've never parodied even one movie that MST3K parodied, it's all original material.
You'd rather they used a less crowded formula like stand-up comedy, or new lyrics to popular songs? Sure, there are FAR fewer people doing those, that would be WAY more original...
Now I understand why people complain about errors in the articles on /.
The lessons of history teach us - if they teach us anything - that nobody learns the lessons that history teaches us.
I certainly don't think anybody could win a lawsuit, if they were claiming they invented the format of people in a theatre mocking a bad film, but MST3K does have a solid lawsuit. Why? Tradmark!
Is it hard to see the problem with calling your show "Mr. Sinus Theater 3000"? Maybe if he left off the "3000" it wouldn't be quite so obvious, but as is, it's obviously infringing on their trademark.
Next on the block, let's create a company that sells computers, and call them "Kom Pack".
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