Slashdot Mirror
PayPal to Fine Gambling, Porn Sites
scubacuda writes "Yahoo! reports that PayPal is taking an aggressive stance against gambling, adult, and non-prescription drug sites: anyone caught using PayPal for these purposes will be charged $500. Eric Jackson, a former PayPal executive and author of the new book 'The PayPal Wars,' calls the new policy 'draconian' and says it is likely a two-fold strategy to discourage certain behavior while heading off regulators."
Now, instead of only worrying that we'll get crappy porn, we have to worry about having our money stolen, and NOT getting crappy porn!
It's only an insult if it's not true.
What right does paypal have to fine people. If its against the terms of service they could shut down the offending account, but fine them?
how am I supposed to catch the monkey and win hentai dvd's made out of pressed viagra now, without resorting to credit cards?
What is the difference? They(ebay) list adult items, why could you not pay for them via Pay Pal?
It could be worse, it could be Monday.
Heaven forbid a private company make money from something sinful like gambling or porn.
Now if we could just get our government out of the gambling business...
Paypal is owned by ebay right now...but how is this going to work if you buy your adult stuff ON ebay?
Ebay does have a whole adult section where you can buy movies, toys etc etc...so will this effect it?
Fined by the same company that your buying adult things from.
Sounds too me like a double standard in the works. I don't think Paypal is trying to discourage this behavior that it finds objectionable...because if it did, then ebay would remove the entire adult section from it's site also.
Just and observation
"Leo Fender was in a 'state of grace' when he designed the Stratocaster." -- Paul Reed Smith
There's a lot of money to be made in gambling and porn, so why not allow those customers, or complete the needed regulatory thingimagigs to allow them to act as a payment system for those industries.
I bet a lot more people would be willing to pay via paypal for pon than handing over there credit card details.
That's just wrong. Trying to tell people what they can and can't spend their money on.
Thank the PATRIOT act.
This is another victory in the 'war on terror', obviously.
Being someone who does online sports betting, PayPal cut us out a little over 2 years ago.
But it was a practical, not moral cut in my opinion.
The fact of the matter is that in the gambling, adult and I suppose the drug business, you get way too many people who purchase the "product" and then get buyers remorse, and raise all kinds of hell at the card provider, saying it was never them but nefarious internet hooligans who gambled with their Paypal account, or bought that porn subscription to Fatchicks.com.
It became so bad at least in the gambling world that Paypal said the hell with it, and left. Now we have similar providers, but more personal responsibility, too. I actually like it that way.
Uh-oh, I'd better take those PayPal logos off of my website, www.nakedwomengamblingfordrugs.com.
You are in error. No-one is screaming. Thank you for your cooperation.
I did read the article and couldn't see aanywhere whether they would cancel the account if they were used for Gambling/Porn/High-Profit transaction. I am pretty sure the gambling/porn/illlegit-drug stores make probably 100 times that amount. $500 would probably be the "cost of doing business". the policy is just to please the regulators i guess.
Welcome to Contract Law.
If you agreed to their terms of service, you (I assume) agreed to let them fine you.
What right do they have? The rights you gave them when you agreed to their contract.
PayPal's outdated. They're on a social engineering crusade.
Use e-gold instead.
I really hope that this isn't the beginning of a new trend. How long until VISA won't let you buy beer or cigarettes and MasterCard charges a 50% tax on Penthouse? When payment methods start enforcing their own moralities on their costumers, something is seriously wrong.
This might have an interesting effect on PayPal's financial classification (I recall arguments back when it became popular over whether or not it counted as a bank, mostly in terms of what regulations it had to obey). Are there any laws regarding this sort of discriminatory service fees by banks? Would doing this disqualify PayPal from any commercial status it was hoping to attain or maintain?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't adult sites legal, in this country at least?
And last I heard, on-line drugs are legal in general, if there is a real doctor on staff..
Sooo. how can pay-pal *fine* these people? Its not their job to play moral police...
Sure they can just refuse to do business with them, if they don't agree with the morality of the business, that is their right.. but FINES???
No I didn't RTFA, it wouldn't load..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
I don't know how many people would come forward to complain about porn, but gambling will have them up in pitchforks. And of course only the lawyers win.
But seriously, how dare PayPal decide what I do with my money. I hope they lose a lot of business for this, as I'm sure a large portion of their business comes from these very things.
Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
You cannot get someone's paypal payment unless you sign up for a paypal merchant account.
It's no longer allowed to add a surcharge to ebay auctions to cover paypals 3% fee when you have a merchant account. Thus, you not only have to pay for listing your actions on ebay, you also have to pay to get your money.
I wish ebay had a little competition.
However PayPal is actually fining the PayPal user, not the sites.
Should read: PayPal to Fine Users for Gambling, Porn Sites
It'll just open up a whole market for a(nother) payment vendor solution - I know there are already other online payment merchants out there but if they become the defacto standard for porn (there's a little bit on the internet these days I hear) then paypal might just be making a BIG ($$) mistake.
fine with me... I don't care for them anyway.
Actually, even if they have legal title, you still have equitable title.
So, PayPal holds your money in a Trust.
So, normal Trust Law rules apply.
With the caviet that you told them what they could do with your money when you signed the "Terms of Service" contract.
It's getting increasingly difficult to fund online poker accounts, which are enormously popular in light of the World Poker Tour and other televised events.
It looks like were seeing a new era of regulation through threat of regulation. The offshore drug sites are providing a valuable service too: AIDS activists lobbied to be allowed to import personal-use supplies of experimental drugs not yet approved domestically. They're also the main source of nootropics like Piracetam and Hydergine.
Geeze, lighten up, mods. This was pretty funny - I especially like the links. Take a pill.
RTFA!
PayPal has most likely put this change into effect because of threatened government regulation.
How would you feel if your bank said, "Write a check at the porn store, and we're charging you $500!"
It's a violation of our freedom. I've never, ever liked Paypal for their ability to screw the consumer without answering to anyone for any reason. There's a lot of discontent out there... just search for Paypal sucks sites... there are a lot of them. Thank god I don't have an account.
-- No sig for you!
And now the authorities have taken down your website. I bet this is a conspiracy against you!
PayPal is an unregulated global banking monopoly. The porn and gambling industries are some of the most intense hothouses of commercial Internet development. Darwinian pressure is creating an opportunity for a PayPal competitor which will give consumers an alternative. The world is in a sorry state when porn and gambling are our best hope for freedom, but it does sound familiar.
--
make install -not war
I thought their only set in stone policy was charge outlandish fees for in essence doing no work whatsoever. Combining with eBay, they make a large percentage of the cost of an item for doing practically no work.
It's nice to see they changed their policy from "charging you so much for so little" to "charging you so much for anything that isn't A SIN YOU HEATHENS YOU SHALL BURN IN THE ETERNAL PIT".
People who legislate morality like eBay aren't that much off from the Nazi policy of book burning literature that conflicts with the ideals of the state.
Any site that has advertising popups on the main page, has no titles on pages, and panders to people who will believe anything anyone says, as long as it's backed in allegedly real gold... well... (Hey, nobody ever said /. only had intelligent people.)
Paypal is not usable for casinos for a looong time.
....
...I would use paypal, but I cannot, actually I mad at them and it got to the point where I say I hate paypal
Living in Costa Rica cannot even open a paypal account (well I can open, but my cards are just rejected) since so many US gaming companies companies hired locals to use personal accounts to do payouts and take payments
it also makes me wonder what is adult and what not : if I order a vibrator for my wife with my paypal from a "toy store" am I in violation ?
I feel paypal is putting so many regulations on the accounts it is already impossible to use for lots of people (eg. me)
just my thought
Sounds like a void in the market waiting to be filled to me. Some enterprising fellow could become the Larry Flynt of online monetary transfer.
The cancel button is your friend. Do not hesitate to use it.
i mean, off topic, sure, but what exactly does the department department handle? i know what all the others do.
stored on computers from birth to the grave
Almost every single reply so more is complaining that its none of Paypal's business to enforce their morals on the user. Anyone who has said something like that is a mindless slashdot troll who doesn't know anything about 3rd party processing or merchant accounts. Most merchant account providers have banned adult sites and gambling for years because they are High Risk Industries. Its not just adult and gambling, many processors also ban game servers, IRC-related sites, MLM schemes, make $3000-working-from-home-sites, etc. These types of websites are highly likely to attract stolen credit cards, credit card fraud, and chargebacks. It costs the merchant provider money every time a chargeback is done, and it takes both time and money to fight a chargeback. So please do a little research into the world of credit card processing before you go on a rant about PaPal's religious crusade. They are simply trying to decrease fraudulent transactions. If you don't agree with their policies or the $500 fine, you can opt to use a different company which does allow adult and gambling merchants, but beware you will probably have higher transaction fees, more thorough background checks, and possibly a several day ACH hold on any funds you receive.
Here is the google cache of the All About Romance newsletter (it seems to have disappeared from the site) which is a newsletter about romance novels and give a good idea about how specifically people are being affected:
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:lfrekzaQLGAJ: ww w.likesbooks.com/184.html+&hl=en
Some interesting quotes:
"PayPal can be used to buy and sell pre-1980s issues of Playboy, Playgirl, and Penthouse. On eBay, these can be categorized as "Collectibles" rather than as "Mature Audiences.""
"Books classified as "romantica" - ie. books about people falling in love and making love are not allowed - but who is to say what is romantica and what is just hot romance? Print romances seem to get a pass. Readers can go onto eBay and find print erotic romances such as those published by Kensington's Brava line. They can also find books far more explicit than erotic romance novels for sale, and their PayPal payments will be accepted. The Claiming of Sleeping Beauty, one of Anne Rice's BDSM novels, is one obvious example of this."
"According to Brenna Lyons, when the new policy went into effect, many people noticed that the adult content guidelines were vague. For that reason, many publishers of sensual and erotic books asked PayPal to check out their sites. PayPals adult content guidelines are open to interpretation and so changes can be made. PayPal did, in fact, assure the publishers that their sites were acceptable.
Early in 2004, almost a year after the announcement of the new policy, PayPal began freezing the accounts of publishers, writers, and even readers of erotic romance. Brenna herself knows of four publishers, five self-published authors, and two review sites that had their accounts frozen by PayPal.
What happened to warrant such drastic action? PayPal was investigating them for violations of their Terms of Service (TOS). When an account is under investigation it can be frozen for up to 180 days.
Though those under investigation often disagree, Amanda Pires says that the investigation is "not an invasive process." PayPal doesn't contact the vendor until they've decided it's violating the Acceptable Use policy. They will, however, investigate sites on the basis of a single complaint. According to Amanda, this is because PayPal "encourages people to let them know because the Internet is so large." She adds, though, that while a single complaint is enough to start an investigation, that single complaint isn't enough to get PayPal to take action against a vendor. As part of this investigative process, PayPal staff review both the sites and the content. In the case of an electronic publisher, they might ask for downloads of the books. In a case like that, the process could take longer because they have to evaluate books rather than just evaluating a web site.
The evaluation process involves trying to determine "whether or not the sexual content is a small or insignificant part of the book." Ms. Pires adds, "We allow PayPal to be used to sell a book, not based on length or number of loves scenes, but on the topic or intent of the book. If the sexual scenes or content is part of the story line but not the primary purpose of the book, then PayPal can be used to sell the book." Staff members performing this evaluation must decide whether the books adhere to the Acceptable Use policy. When performing these evaluations, the staff members "try to be as fair as possible."
Many authors and publishers of erotic romances who have been investigated disagree that PayPal treated people in their industry fairly. According to Brenna Lyons, no warning was given to small publishers and self-published authors that they were about to be investigate. Their PayPal accounts were suddenly frozen. "Just wake up one morning and have your account frozen. If you happened to have most of your working capital in there, you were screwed. Pardon the frank language. Here's the cute part. When they started going after the big boys, they gave them
Step 1: Buy an eBay share (Unless you have some already). They own PayPal.
Step 2: Sue the company for abusing minority shareholder rights. I mean, in what way is it in the shareholder's interest for the company to pursue some kind of wonky moral agenda?
(They do have this concept for publically traded companines in the 'States right?)
Who the fuck do they think they are, the Morality Squad?
Their job is to handle currency transfers, that's all, not to monitor what THEY think is right/wrong.
I hate when these companies get cocky and think they're doing the world a favor when in actuality they're just making themselves look bad.
We have secretly replaced these Slashdot mods' sense of humor with a rusty nail. Let's see if they notice!!
Anything that resizes my browser window automatically gets a /dev/IGNORE entry from me.
Man I hate that... not to mention the ads and pop-ups.
PayPal is a private business. You agree to give them the right to fine you for those actions when you sign up with them. If you don't like the fines, get a MasterCard or something.
But on the other hand, I doubt PayPal is going to catch many people. As long as you don't include "Here's my $500 bet for the game tonight. Gambling Rocks!" I doubt they're going to check every transaction. As long as you aren't dumb about it, I don't really know what they're going to do. I'm not saying keep doing what you're doing, just be careful about it. Don't send money to 'Bets@GamblingOnline.com', or use comments that show it.
But really, if you don't like it, don't do business with PayPal. As long as they get you to agree to it when you sign up, it's fine for them to do it, it's up to read the fine print if you're going to be doing risky stuff like that. And there's a clause in there (like in everything) that says they reserve the right to update the TOS/AUP whenever they want, and that you automaticially agree to it.
1. Start PayPal 2 that allows all of this
2. ???
3. Profit!
Use FIREPAY or NETTELLER (google them for info). They are RELIABLE and they aren't interested in being Big Brother or monitoring your online habits.
F Pay Pal.
GetTheJob.com : Nothing but Real Jobs.
You win for best TROLL today
They can have whatever policy they want, but they are not going to impose fines on me for breaking it.
Incidentally, the "Mature Audiences" category includes "items that you have to be 18 or over to purchase", which would seem to include any 18-rated film whether pornographic or not.
K
Seems like that lets the people who use Paypal to fund murder for hire and funding illegal wars in South America off the hook. I guess Paypal likes the people who are using their service for murder for hire and funding illegal wars in South America...
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
At least this is better than that damn dog killing troll.
Paypal doesn't have any of my money in their accounts, it's all in my bank and credit card accounts until I actually order something...
(Truck Rent-A-Center, Inc. v Puritan Farms 2nd, Inc., 41 NY2d 420, 425 [1977]; see Fingerlakes Chiropractic, P.C. v Maggio, 269 AD2d 790 [4th Dept. 2000]; Benderson v. Poss, 142 AD2d 937 [4th Dept. 1988]; Pyramid Centres & Co. v Kinney Shoe Corp., 244 AD2d 625 [3d Dept. 1997].)
It's up to a court to decide whether $500 is proportional to the actual loss incurred by PayPal. You usually don't get to count administrative time as costs in contract disputes; it has to be an outside expense.
Numerous stories have been on the news about CC companies getting stuck with some fools gambling bill. The courts go along with the excuse that the gambler is not at fault and the CC companies should not have allowed them to go into debt.
//trial lawyers// are already trying through 3rd parties and direct actions to imply that America is obese because of Fast food. How long before people start parroting that and then buying into the blame the McDs for their lazy lard ass butt? How long before states see the money opportunity?
I bet if you look you will find someone who sued a CC company over alchol purchased via a CC where the buyer died or killed someone while drunk.
You should be asking, whats a business to do when the courts are so willing to absolve an individual of their guilt and pin it on a "big evil corp"? Most businesses that lose out are not big!
Its just an extension of the anti-smoking suits. Sorry, anyone dumb enough to smoke since the 80s doesn't have the right to complain, let alone if they are smoking to this day!
Look at the news today, they
Businesses are well within their right to protect themselves just as your well within your right to not use that business.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
as a lot of people have pointed out, a reason paypal might want to do this is because of the extremely high rate of disputed charges with porn due to one member of the family ordering something, then claiming it was a fraudulent charge when their significant other finds out about it.
does anyone have any rough idea as to how often this is actually happening. isn't it possible that internet credit card fraud is much less of a problem than we've thought?
Well, here's your chance to get rich: start your own online-payment services (PornPal, PlayPal, PillPal?) dedicated to pr0n, gambling, and medications.
>;k
I'm seriously considering canceling my account.
We are moving to a cashless society, even McDonalds is now accepting credit & debit cards. While I initally resisted using a debit card, the fact is I use it all the time now and often only keep $10 or $20 in my wallet simply because just about anything I purchase can be made with the debit card. It makes tracking my finances much easier. Now while I wouldn't expect to buy smack from the local drug dealer with a card, I would expect to be allowed to purchase anyting legal. Credit card companies stopped processing gambling debts years ago due mostly to government pressure, (and chargebacks, I know) But the bottom line is gambling is generally illeagal unless it is 'sponsored' by the state. It is a scary idea that any finacial company starts down the path of restricing money transfers based on morals. I think others will follow...
wanted: one clever sig,apply within
RTFA.
"The new policy, which takes effect Sept. 24 and applies to both buyers and sellers,"
This is a pure money-grab by Paypal; they're doing it to sites they think support piracy as well. This profiteering off illegal activity, in many cases(not for legitimate porn and legal gambling, but certainly for piracy)- and I can't wait for a US attorney to fire up an investigation against them, because the scumbags deserve it. Among other things, by seizing the money, they're proving they knew it was obtained illegally. Posession of stolen funds, anyone?
Please help metamoderate.
PayPal's questionable policy has also hurted the artist of the excellent adult comic "Sexy Loser". PayPal has shut down his account although he doesn't sell any adult oriented material, he only asked for donations on his site.
PayPal currently is the MicroSoft of micropayment, it seems... which is very sad. Why they piss of their customers like this is beyond me. I can't understand how they could NOT like to make more money ?! Excluding adult material is surely a big financial loss, isn't it ?
When you sue a major US corporation, the only people who win are corporate lawyers (well, and the corporation).
Consumer power lies in taking business elsewhere, not in direct legal assaults. The economics of the American legal system are heavily weighted against individuals and even groups of individuals.
Another minor point: your plan requires buying eBay stock, which means you are helping to fund the entity you intend to attack. One share may be economically insignificant, but the situation is still absurd. As an experienced American consumer^Wproducer, my advice is:
1. Sell any eBay shares you may own (if you would rather decapitalize eBay than accept the risk/reward of continued investment).
2. Don't feed the lawyers.
3. Take your business elsewhere (google is your friend).
I believe the parent forgot the dash from the address. e-gold.
Here's a nickle, kid. Get yourself a real browser
This whole thing gives me a great idea...
Send someone you don't like $10.00 through PayPal (from an alternate email address, of course). Wait a week, then complain to PayPal that, despite sending the money and after "numerous attempts to settle the transaction", you still haven't received the copy of "The Olsen Twins Fuck a Goat Volume 3" (or the Canadian Viagra) that you paid ten bucks for.
Your enemy will be fined $500.00 for just $10.00 and a few emails. Not a bad return on investment, eh?
"Was it a millionaire who said 'Imagine No Posessions?'" -- Elvis Costello
Contract or no, from what I understand they can't levey fines. The can demand losses, but they can't assess penalties. Only the Gov't can do that. I seem to remember Video Stores losing over this, which is why they stopped charging late fees and switched to just billing you for another rental.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
Here's a penny - it does the same thing in firefox.
Here's a nickel. Maybe it can go towards you learning to spell.
getting away with this. Publicly, it's a 'fine', but on paper, it's a 'fee'. They get to say they're fining sites they don't want to do business with when in actuality they're just charging them more because they can. I wish I was half as evil as Palpal, I'd be rich.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
agreed.............. http://www.mozilla.org/
How are they to equitably enforce a ban on porn, for instance? Okay, so you can't join EroticPreSchoolers.com, but can you stream Deep Inside Laura's Bush from the DIVX site? Can you buy an unrated video from Amazon? To fine me for certain transactions -- doesn't that mean they will be monitoring ALL my transactions? Is that a message they need to send to users?
I survived the Dick Cheney Presidency 7 to 9 AM 7-21-07
Exactly why sports should be abolished worldwide. ALL it does is to lead to gambling. It certainly DOES NOT lead to good sportsmanship. Die you gambling shit! DIE DIE DIE!!!!! BTW, do you belong to the GNAA? Bet you do.
Now that PayPal's intent to control not only your money but your morality is clear, their 'strategy' practically begs for a competitor to rise up against them - one who markets based on the fact that they WON'T tell you how you can and cannot spend your money.
Max
My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
Porn sites have traditionally had very high chargeback rates, tho it doesn't sound like that would have anything to do with this "fine" nonsense. Actually, that just sounds like a way for them to poliitically position themselves to avoid US "money laundering" regulations.
sucks to be them - they are nearly to the point of being useless when compared to (slightly more expensive) anonymous services like egold and slightly less known services like bidpay. I was one of those people who had his account frozen for no good reason and then suddenly "released" last year when they were facing all that pressure - but never again will I link a bank account to their service and I make sure my friends all know to do the same.
It might add ten percent to the price of a transaction to use egold instead of using paypal, but so what? I can get an actual one-time-use visa number (if I even need to - already it appears more services outside ebay are taking egold than paypal), make the transaction as I fucking well please, and don't have to worry about some bank nazis stealing the rest of my money because they don't like where I spent the last bit of it.
Yes indeed, E-NIGGERS!!!!! Members of the GNAA and pop-up whores!!!! NIGGERS!!! Any one who would use tham are NIGGERS too!!!!! Nigger!!!
My post is NOT a troll.
Apparently "troll" now means "you said something I don't agree with".
We have secretly replaced these Slashdot mods' sense of humor with a rusty nail. Let's see if they notice!!
you pay for porn? caveat emptor, amigo. the first thing a geek learns is you don't have to pay for it (in the virtual world anyway).
This is my Sig, this is my Gun. One is for Slashdot and one is for Fun.
I'm glad that one form of organized crime is finally standing up to fight a different form of organized crime.
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
Is this theft, or atleast a scam by PayPal? While I can understand them not personally caring for gambling or adult sites, but their personal opinions shouldn't affect their customers. IANAL, but this doesn't sound any different than if I were to see that you're a Microsoft employee, and charge you $500 extra on a purchase. I could just have some little sign that no one can read that states you must agree to pay a lot extra if you work for M$ before entering the store.
Every time you post an article on Slashdot, I kill a server. Think of the servers!
That's because you didn't tell it not to.
I've used egold a lot and know others who have (the EFF even accepts egold donations) and I've never heard a complaint about the commerce in any independant forum.
Pretty ironic, people with insecure browsers and/or browser settings accusing others of being clueless...
They can't even regulate themselves but they sure try with everyone else.
Ebay stories seem to pop up everymonth or so in the anime world. *yawn*
e-gold allows gambling too - the best (by far) casino (online) that takes e-gold is "The Gold Casino". They also accept other non-repudiable payments. Link which I get credit for if you sign up via.
"well, hell Bill, don't get mad at the guy for shooting at you...you do have a bullet proof vest on right?"
What retard thinks it's OK to resize my browser window just because there's a way to stop it?
I'm sorry but if I want to buy a dildo and a porno that's my choice to make. I can walk into any sex shop and purchase stuff with a CC (cashless) but I can't do this online with Paypal? WTF! I can see the gambling aspect. That's like saying I want 200 Lotto tickets on a my Mastercard. Uh no I don't think so. But that's all - not drugs and not porn. I will be closing my paypal account today.
I've never purchased drugs or porn but if I ever get the "urge" then I want to be able to do so at my leisure.
Don't keep any money in your PayPal account - always transfer it to your bank account as soon as you get it.
I'm not sure if PayPal is allowed to automatically debit the "fine" from your bank account, but lots of banks out there will let you open up an account for nothing (exact terms depend on bank). You could conceviably just transfer it to a free checking account and then just have your bank trasnfer it from your PayPal associated account to an account you do not have associated with your PayPal account.
If they go after your credit cards, just dispute the charge, make PayPal prove that you did these transactions. Hell, just get a credit card with an insanely low limit that they will not be able to charge!
If these fuckers want to take your money, make it as hard for them as possible.
[neTTeller.com] is so utterly content-free and/or badly designed I cannot even find a sign-up link or terms of service
The bug is you put too many T's.
Where does everyone get this silly idea that Paypal is the LEAST bit interested in morals? Oh yeah, when I have an opportunity to make millions of dollars in fines, the first thing on my mind is "I must cleanse society and save the world!"
Look, they're pulling what the FCC, the government and countless other companies have done time after time: Find something that a few psychos look down on and become a hero by cashing in on the 'punishment'. There's no way you can believe this is some sort of holy war.
I am NOT a number! I am a - oh wait, I'm number 761710. Look! 761710!
The porn/gambling/drug business is not always clean (crime, [child] prostitution, etc.), if you refute this I think you're naive.
I understand the "What if tomorrow they decide beer or tobacco is bad etc." concerns, but it's only speculations, sometimes decisions have to be made, you can't always do nothing and debate endlessly on what should be done in the future because of hypothetical "What if"s.
I think PayPal should have the right to do that, if people are not happy with this they can find another way of payment, and if it's less safe, well, if you don't thrust this sort of business (porn/gambling/drug's) then why would you give them your money in the first place ?
In short, I'm all with PayPal for now.
(PS: I'm not Christian if you wonder, nor anything religious. I don't believe in any god or Santa Claus...)
while i dislike gambling, adult, and non-prescription drug sites, who are paypal to fine them? i sure hope that they are not the custodians of the "values, morals, etc.." of society, because paypal are nothing but a bunch of crooks who will not hesitate to use any means to defraud their customers. if they indeed feel so strongly about "gambling, adult, and non-prescription drug sites", why not deny them service instead? but, of course they will not do so, they will offer their services to them, and skim the $500 fine.
Closed mine, with a link to the yahoo story and an explanation of why I closed the account emailed to paypal. :)
feh. stuff.
What browser are you using? None of that happened when I went there with Firefox.
Paypal is doing nothing more than stealing from people and firms with cynical selfrighteous impunity borne of the clear understanding that soccer moms and psychochristians will support them
foooorrrrrrrrr the chilllllllldrennnnnnnn
almost never... reformation of a contract comes about in literally 1 out of 300,000 contract cases. in fact we had a project to look for contracts that were voided because of mistake... and we found 3... in the history of the United States... and they were all from New Hampshire or something.
. SLASHDOT: Home of the vicious nerd.
the chargeback numbers for these types of merchants are incredible. it's an issue of Paypal losing money... not any type of feigned morality.
. SLASHDOT: Home of the vicious nerd.
...if PayPal ever decides to get it into it's (now quickly becoming "ugly") head to fine me for anything LEGAL I purchase on the internet:
0. Write a letter to PayPal, giving them 24 hours to cease and decist and return my money.
1. After 24 hours, call my Credit Card organization and explain them that I have been unlawfully robbed of my money (I live outside the US - should be of assistance here). Ask them to start a recall procedure.
2. If any problems arise with the recall, start heading to court and request my money from whatever legal organization PayPal has in my country.
So would this work? IANAL, but I do know that legal purchases are not to be fined in any way. Illegal purchases should be handed over to the appropriate authorities to let them deal with it. But that is not what I was talking about.
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There is nothing wrong with buying prescription drugs overseas to save money. Not all of us have health insurance, or can afford the expense prescription drugs costs in the United States due to excessive regulation.
Some people here seem to be of the opinion that paypal is doing this on a moral tangent. This is not so. They just do not want the hassle of following up with internet porn people for claims that may become bothersome.
The most important thing is the fine. They said they could fine you up to 500. They may just fine you whatever your transaction cost was. It costs money to go after bad transactions, and as a business trying to keep cocts down, probably the best way to do this is to make it such that those bothersome transactions do not cause a loss. By charging a fine they can avoid having to follow up disputes involving porn sites at all.
Paypal is seeing how far they can go in:
- Avoiding definition
- Avoiding regulation
- Avoiding responsibility
They take peoples' money with little recourse, they make up their own laws, and they scrape the profits off everybody. Fining people? It would be a funny joke to talk about over dinner if it wasn't so sad that they put it into practice. I don't use PayPal much for just these corporate techniques that they use, and they can only use them because of their dominant position in the marketplace.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely - Lord Acton
Abuse of power comes as no surprise - Jenny Holzer
Just because they have found ways of acting where the laws are undefined doesn't mean they aren't scumbags. Sorry to use such harsh words, but this just all leaves a bad taste in my mouth and makes me want to search the ASCII art archives for a picture of a weasel to paste here.
When I was a kid, we only had one Darth.
instead of only worrying that we'll get crappy porn
I don't get it. Unlicensed gambling and drugs, OK, they're illegal. But pornography????????
Since when is porn illegal in the US?
I am very happy to pay for the PayPal service as it works well for me. But to not only pay for the service I wanted but also have part of those funds enable PayPal to police what I do in my life and how I choose to spend my money? NO, THANKS.
I encourage everyone to write in and complain about this Big Brother-ish behavior or Little Brother attempted to placate Big Brother.
Demand the freedom we prattle on about. Settle for nothing less.
now go join the Taliban, fascist.
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The fine can also be levied for ordering prescription drugs fron any firm online which isn't certified re:
" Under the new policy, prescription drug sellers who do not have Verified Internet Pharmacy Practice Sites certification from the National Association of Boards of Pharmacy, and the people who buy from them, also face fines and possible legal action if they do business using PayPal."
So if I buy Piracatem over the net as it is not available without a prescription in the US, PayPal can fine me and otherwise bring legal action against me? A convenient financial middleman is now a pimp of the FDA and Big Pharma as well as for Religious Nuts attempting to take over the US government?
This is way, way too much. If this is not rescinded then I am pulling all funds out of Paypal and closing my account. I don't pay bloody creeps for their malicious behavior.
Heh, I use a perfectly secure browser--I don't get the popups and crap.
However, I still would never use them. I don't trust people who have such sleazy sites. They have such a sleazy site. So I don't trust them. I don't give money to people I don't trust. So I don't use them. Period.
They want to do business with me? They'll have to reform. And no, I don't give a damn if my business is insignificant to them. Enough of us do that, and they'll eventually have to change.
Good try, but I'm using Firefox now, so your response is nullified. I abandoned everything but Firefox / Mozilla long ago.
And my claim is still ompletely valid -- even with Firefox, the site still resizes the browser to maximum screen proportions (1600x1200 !!!), and I find that incredibly annoying.
I wouldn't trust them on that point alone...
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040803 Firefox/0.9.3
In other words, Firefox 0.9.3... and yes, it still resizes the browser (I tested again from home). It's not so much that maybe I didn't turn off that "allow" in Firefox -- it's that the HTML code there resizes the browser in the first place. It just screams, "Look at me! I am superior to all who visit!!" Like guys who drive really big trucks... everyone knows better.
Lest people think that these days porn is half the net... it always was, and in a sense you could argue pr0n drove the development of the net like any good student of the human animal would assume it would.
Until 1995 the UUCP network had more nodes than the TCP/IP connected internet. What did the UUCP network carry? News and mail. That's it. That's all you could do with UUCP (modulo some half baked ftp by mail schemes). Before uu.net became the first commercial backbone, UUCP traffic was shuttled site to site by "some guy you knew" who gave you a feed, and at either 1200 or 2400 baud (no, I'm not kidding) but when uu.net came out you could BUY a DECENT feed and by Dod use Telebit Trailblazer modems at 19.2K. But who would pay $400 a month to get usenet?
Engineering managers addicted to porn, that's who. "We need it for technical reasons. We cannot do our work without it" always worked. As long as we found them porn, they'd pay for talk.bizarre.
Having created alt.sex by mistake one day I really think uunet's Rick Adams, uunet's founder, should have given me some sort of profit sharing.
Oh well, that's how you can tell internet pioneers, they're the ones with the arrows in their feet.
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hello pot? it's the kettle on line two.
scott king
Ahh, I'd forgotten that I'd turned those "allow" options off a long time ago. It does it to me too when I turn the "allow" options back on.
I don't want to totall discount any theories here about PayPal being socially responsible, or taking up censorship out of feared legislation, or legal consequences thereof, but doesn't it simply just make a lot more sense, that they are covering their financial ass? Or the amount of work they would have to do as an intermediary to reclaim those funds the user may say they never okayed?
Porn and Gambling sites steal from someone PayPal account?
Get out of here! Someone use someone elses PayPal account to gamble, or view Porn? You must be kidding! This would never happen, and PayPal would never have to worry about such. Not.
PayPal doesnt' want to get caught in a shady deal, or wrapped up in a shady deal, or associated with a shady deal.
But people would be willing to pay for those shady habits like gambling and pornography, if they could be certain there wasn't a crook on the other end about to drain their account dry.
PrePaid debit accounts, is the solution. Credit Card banks do offer one-off accounts, but they don't aggressively market them. Of course the merchants would have to worry about fraud in this case, rather than the consumer, but there has to be some way to prevent fraud in such transactions.
So why do you use a browser that's set up to allow websites to resize its windows?
Just turn off the setting. Or if you don't use a browser that has that setting, upgrade to one that does.
Porn, gambling, non prescription drugs - people selling that stuff have the $500.00. Hopefully people switch to another payment service and leave Paypal in droves.
Try http://www.e-gold.com/. This does not resize my browser or pop up any windows.
"Avoid employing unlucky people - throw half of the pile of CVs in the bin without reading them." -- David Brent
When you order something from a paypal merchant, the money is shown in the merchant's paypal account and the money goes into paypal's accounts
What right does paypal have to fine people. If its against the terms of service they could shut down the offending account, but fine them?
Actually, I noticed that you can't even get to the Acceptable Use Policy without being a PayPal member. Of course, you can't be a PayPal member without accepting the AUP. I'm sure there's a link buried in the signup process, but this is the sort of thing you want to think about for a while before you jump in. They're counting on you *not* stopping to think.
So if anyone would like to stop and think, here's a page I put together based on the info I can read because I am signed up with them.
http://www.littlecutie.net/paypal.html
I've been a PayPal user for years now, but not as a real stream of income. This really shows why anyone in business would do well to get a real credit card merchant account. How can you run a business if you never know whether your revenue conduit is going to suddenly dock your account for $500 at a whack?
Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
I was not allowed to buy a postal money order with a Visa/MC (in Michigan), which almost makes sense to me though I couldn't say why. Buying an MO at Walgreen's, though, was no hassle.
Also, I couldn't get anybody to sell me plane tickets to Cuba...
At any rate, this Paypal thing seems more pragmatic than moralistic. Others have mentioned the various legal issues and likely disputes, but the fines are still a bit interesting. There are plenty of private businesses that charge fines for misuse (the most common being late fees for assorted rental items), but $500 is a bit drastic. Still, if you want to keep somebody from doing something, it sounds pretty effective. Somebody gets his Paypal account closed, that's one thing, he can open another; getting $500 sucked directly from his bank account is a bit heavier deterrent.
This is just silly.
Some quick examples:
I purchase an adult DVD on ebay (and they are certainly there!) - can I not pay for it with Paypal? Seems odd to me that anything purchased on ebay couldn't be paid for with Paypal, which is, of course, owned by ebay.
I visit an established and "reputable" adult content site (think Playboy or Hustler), can I no longer use Paypal to pay for my subscription?
I donate $50 to the Bush campaign - which, of course, is an obscene thing to do. Can I no longer use Paypal?
I purchase drugs from Canada - are they an "uncertified seller"? Can I not use Paypal to purchase those drugs?
I ask myself why ebay wants to get into the morality business - and I don't have much of an answer. Western Union certainly does not. My bank doesn't dictate who I can and cannot write a check to. My credit card company doesn't decline to process memberships to porn site (um, at least that's what I've heard.) Clearly there is something going on here that has Paypal/ebay concerned - and methinks it's got to be fear of regulatory intrusion of some sort or another. If Paypal all of a sudden becomes the arbiter of what's allowable on the web, then we're all in trouble.
the way i see it they gona fine the sites that accept paypal as payment
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