Slashdot Mirror


The Shaggy Steed of Physics

Sarusa writes "The Shaggy Steed is an Irish folk tale about a prince whose kingdom has fallen into chaos. A druid provides him a small shaggy horse which guides the prince on his quest through great trials and tribulations to a magical realm where he can obtain the necessary powers with which to bring peace to his land. (You can find more detail here.) For David Oliver, the Shaggy Steed of Physics is the two-body problem: the motion of two bodies bound together by the inverse square law." Read on for the rest of Sarusa's review of Oliver's book The Shaggy Steed of Physics. Fair warning: the review is lengthy, because the book demands it. The Shaggy Steed of Physics: Mathematical Beauty in the Physical World author David Oliver pages 300 publisher Springer rating 8 of 10 (if you have the required math skills) reviewer Sarusa ISBN 0387403078 summary Beautiful but demanding examination of the two-body problem.

The force on each body, whether gravitational or electric, is proportional to the square of the distance between the bodies. An isolated sun and planet form such a system, and a hydrogen atom, which is just a proton and electron, can be simplistically modeled as such. This may seem a trivial problem: you can sum it up in half a page in a physics book. But that's because all the detail work has been done for you. Furthermore, anything more complex than the two-body problem is chaotic and incapable of exact solution, so it's up to the two-body problem to carry us along. This is a complex problem, so this review is rather lengthy.

Let me warn you right off the bat that this is not a book for the faint of heart. It kicked my ass. The concepts are fast and furious, and the math is dense. Equations festoon the pages, daring you to ignore them. But you may not, they're fundamental to the discussion. Mr. Oliver opines that anyone with basic undergraduate math should be able to handle it. I had calculus, differential equations, and a good dose of physics in college and I still found the book tough going, mostly due to the whirlwind of notation and sheer number of variables introduced. I ended up keeping a cheat sheet of key definitions which ended up being four pages long, and took almost two weeks to process it. It reads like an advanced college physics book, except without extra examples or redundant explanation -- he expects you to be smart or motivated enough to keep up.

As an example: 'Using Hamilton's equations to eliminate p' and q', the total rate of change may be compactly expressed as df/dt = df/dt + [f,H] where [f,g] is the Poisson bracket of any two functions of the motion: [f,g] = (df/dqi*dg/dpi - dg/dqi * df/dpi)' I've reformatted this slightly for text limitations; he of course doesn't use * for multiplication, and you should read all 'i's as subscript i. This is fairly simple math in the context of the book.

So now that I've scared you off, what's the payoff? Well, unlike my college physics books which just lead me from factoid to factoid there are moments where the hard work pays off in big "oooh" moments. Your book might give you Kepler's second law: a planet sweeps out equal areas of its ellipse in equal times. But why? We'll just call it 'conservation of angular momentum'; that should hold you plebes. But in Shaggy Steed you'll find the equations like this that you might have thought were fundamental falling out of the woodwork, built up from the real fundamentals.

We start out by defining coordinate spaces and deciding that we're interested in Newtonian/Galilean rather than Einsteinian physics for the moment, since our subjects travel slowly enough and relativity makes things nastier. We start with a particle that has two vectors -- position and velocity. Turn this into two ensembles of rigid body particles exerting force upon each other. From this we build up the laws of motion, arriving at the total energy H of the system, and the 'gene of motion,' the Lagrangian: the difference between the kinetic and potential energy. 'Gene of motion' is a pretty bold claim, so we are shown how every mechanical quantity of the system may be derived from the Lagrangian. From there it's on to the 'action' principle, which is basically the integral of the Lagrangian over time - the key being that of any path the particles may take, they act in a way to minimize the action. Every other law of motion (including Newton's) follows from this, though to explain why it's the case we need general relativity. This was my first 'oooh' moment.

Chapter 3 really sets the pace for the rest of the book. If you're thrown off here, you're not going to make it out alive. To summarize: "Motion consists of the trajectory flow of particles in phase space. Each isolating invariant introduces a degeneracy into the motion in which the full phase space available to the trajectories degenerates into a submanifold. Increasing numbers of isolating invariants correspond to increasing degeneracies of the motion which restrict the trajectories to increasingly restricted submanifolds of phase space." This is more or less the programme of the entire book. Dig out as much complexity as required, then simplify to solvability.

Oliver introduces each new concept, so if you're following along carefully, you can follow along. This is all done half in equations, so we're diving so deep into math that you (okay, I) may be several pages in and forget where you were coming from and where you were going. Then suddenly you're out the back end and he nails it all with a beautiful concrete application or insight. For Chapter 3 it's Hooke motion, which you can think of as approximating two weights connected by a spring. Now if you've ever taken differential equations, or dynamics, you're probably uncomfortably familiar with this system. Now here it is all laid out for you, everything explained, and boy those resultant equations look mighty familiar. So that's where that all comes from, and why they use those particular symbols. The linear central force and the inverse-square forces of our two-body problem turn out to be closely related as well.

To be crushingly brief, Chapter 4 finally gets down to the (relatively) practical matter of classical planetary (Keplerian) mechanics, and why four dimensional spheres are special. Chapter 5 dives into quantum mechanics, and the hydrogen atom loosely simulated as a two body problem, since it has only the nucleus and one electron. And let's derive the fundamentals of quantum physics and the periodic table while we're here. Though I've neglected to mention it till now, Oliver doesn't neglect the human side of all this. He doesn't linger on it, but he does provide context. It's amusing to see how many of these inexorable equations were originally derived by geniuses like P. Dirac, only to be disowned because the implications were too outlandish.

In Chapter 6, it's time to step out of Newtonian/Galilean space and into Einsteinian space. We've made a lot of assumptions, such as the infinitely fast propagation of forces. This is no longer the case; time is no longer separate from space. In fact, we learn how to rotate space into time through imaginary rotation angles (known as 'boosts'). e=mc^2 falls out. But our shaggy steed eventually breaks down on the precession of Mercury. In the land of general relativity, even a simple two-body problem is really a many-body problem - forces are no longer instantaneous, they require force particles. The steed is of no more use.

But wait! Chapter 7, The Manifold Universe, takes on many-body motion like Don Quixote tilting bravely at a windmill, and tries to pull some order from the chaos. KAM theory is introduced and our many-body problem turns out to be not absolutely chaotic, but a mixture of regular and chaotic motion. You may have noticed that our many-body solar system doesn't just fly apart. We can model it more or less as a set of two-body problems with minor perturbations (minor being the key). And of course we can model fluids even though the internal motion is chaotic. Order emerges. Our shaggy steed is revived, transformed.

The back of the book contains the Notes, which are compact digressions into the hard (yes ...) math. I have to admit some of them completely lost me. But they're not required, just extra reading for those of you who eat this stuff up.

This all leaves me with a bit of a quandary. It's a beautiful book if you're a graduate-level student of math or physics, smarter than me (your best bet), or willing to put a lot of effort into it. Otherwise I can't recommend it -- the book is gibberish if you can't follow the math. I can't help but think that it would make a fantastic course in the hands of a skilled practical math teacher like Dr. Gary Sherman at RHIT; I certainly could have used his help with this. So, it's to teachers like him that I'd really suggest this book, for eventual dissemination to their students. Or if you dig physics and have the math skills, you might want to try riding "The Shaggy Steed of Physics" alone. If it throws you, there's no shame.

You can purchase The Shaggy Steed of Physics: Mathematical Beauty in the Physical World from bn.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.

181 comments

  1. Fair Warning by D3 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Fair warning: the review is lengthy, because the book demands it.

    Yes, I believe on the inside cover the book EULA stating "All reviews of this material must be over 3 pages in length"

    --
    Do really dense people warp space more than others?
    1. Re:Fair Warning by Xenographic · · Score: 1

      That's not half as bad as the EULA in the new PARANOIA XP rulebook.

      Hell, the termination clause of it is "you may be terminated" ;] I think you also give up your rights to liberty, the persuit of happiness, and Bouncy Bubble Beverage in there somewhere, too, but my memory seems to have been erased in order to better server Friend Computer...

  2. Here's a quick summary of all book articles on /. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny
    SPOILER! Scroll down to read below.





    Although there are some places that could be better, I give this book an 8 out of 10.

  3. A lighter physics book... by tcopeland · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ...is O'Reilly's Physics for Game Developers.

    One of the chapters - on 'real world' projectile motion - is available for download at the above site, so you can get a feel for the writing and content.

    1. Re:A lighter physics book... by johnnyb · · Score: 4, Funny

      I thought game developers got to make up their own physics :)

    2. Re:A lighter physics book... by tcopeland · · Score: 1

      > [link to Programming from the Ground Up]

      Sweet. I've got the book by Jeff Duntemann already or I'd give it a look. Good stuff!

    3. Re:A lighter physics book... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      why should i read a book from rightwing nutjob.

  4. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I know, it sounds like the beginnings of a bad porno.

  5. Long review? by tinla · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Maybe I'm in a minority of 1, but that review didn't seem very long to me. Sure its longer than a jacket summery... but it hardly does as far enough to be in-depth let alone deserve a warning.

    anyway... better than the usual 'contents table' affair we get on slashdot I suppose. Hardly Sunday paper review long though.

    --
    0daymeme.com: Great stuff.
    1. Re:Long review? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe I'm in a minority of 1, but that review didn't seem ver

      Jeez! Enough with the War & Peace recital! You're sending me to sleep here!

    2. Re:Long review? by nusratt · · Score: 1

      "didn't seem very long to me. Sure its longer than a jacket summery..."

      well, i would have seemed longer if you'd been wearing a parka wintry.

    3. Re:Long review? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ok, you've made your point mr. genius. Now, someone mod this down to 0 because this is redundant.

  6. The Shaggy Steed of Physics For Idiots by erick99 · · Score: 3, Interesting
    For folks like myself who would like to know more about what the book covers, but is not going to spend several weeks working through the math and learning math. Perhaps the content goes beyond what can be known without doing the math, I don't know. Hell, how could I?

    Cheers,

    Erick

    --
    http://www.busyweather.com/
    1. Re:The Shaggy Steed of Physics For Idiots by AuMatar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Are you looking to learn physics or understand physics? You can have Kepler's laws explained to you in a page or two, and learn enough to use them in basic ways. TO understand physics, you need to do the math. If you don't, you can memorize a bunch of equations but you'll never understand where those equations come from.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    2. Re:The Shaggy Steed of Physics For Idiots by wass · · Score: 2, Interesting
      If you want a rough idea of the physics involved without the math, then you can probably just read the book, skipping the equations as they come to you. This way you'll still wind up getting the concepts as they're explained. Of course if you do this you're missing out on the overall beauty and spirit of physics, but at least you'll get a sense of what's going on. It's kind of like reading Shakespeare's Hamlet directly vs. reading a summary of it.

      The book's content seems to be the basics of classical mechanics (harmonic oscillation, Kepler's laws), and some other stuff like hydrogen atom in quantum mechanics, special and general relativity, etc. As the review indicates, it's primarily things involving the 2-body problem. You may have learned this stuff at a higher level in other physics or chemistry classes, but this book will give a sense of where these concepts come from, and how it's not just fancy professors with crazy beards plucking them from thin air.

      You can read my other comments on this topic, but I disagree with the poster as to the level of this book. I place it somewhere beyond the introductory physics classes, but not as difficult as the advanced undergraduate physics classes a physics major would take. The reviewer, on the other hand, implies one needs to be a graduate student in math or physics to enjoy this book, but I disagree with that. [disclaimer - i AM a graduate physics student, however]

      --

      make world, not war

  7. Re: REJOICE! by lukewarmfusion · · Score: 4, Funny

    Huzzah! Interest has been loosed upon the internet by phyl0x, the great emancipator. No longer shall interest be bound and forced to live and work as a slave to...well...ummm....

    Oh, I see... It looks like you meant to use the word "losing," as in "lose, losing, lost." Good luck with that next time. /petpeeve

  8. The poster is a huge nerd by atrizzah · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    But that's OK I guess. Sounds like a good book, albeit way over my head

    1. Re:The poster is a huge nerd by ircubic · · Score: 1

      Oh my, how unbelievably rare to find a nerd on a site that has "News for Nerds" in it's logo...

  9. If you want it to make sense... by halivar · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Otherwise I can't recommend it -- the book is gibberish if you can't follow the math.

    If you want it to make sense, you gotta accept the fact that the book, by itself, is not supposed to turn an interested laymen into a learned professor. Books like these, for me, spur me to go learn the basics instead. Even if I never get all the way through the book, I can at least use it to tell me what I need to know to be considered "learned" in the field.

    I remember in college as a CS student, being spoon-fed the easy-to-learn computing theory and feeling like I was getting nowhere. I picked up the Hopcroft & Ullman automata book and was, at the time, completely inundated by the math (I went to a commuter college with a not-so-advanced math & CS dept.). But at least I knew what I really needed to learn next. I ignored the professor pretty much for the rest of the class (and never opened the textbook) and instead investigated only those things I required to understand the H&U book. I found that by the end of the class, though I was not yet a quarter of the way through the book, I knew a lot more than my classmates, who still struggled with the basic concepts of the field.

    If the book seems too much for anyone other than an grad student, try using it instead as an index of things you need to learn first. Don't know those formulas? Look 'em up. Even if you don't grasp everything in your target book, you'll be smarter for it in the end.

    1. Re:If you want it to make sense... by Tired+and+Emotional · · Score: 4, Funny
      > Otherwise I can't recommend it -- the book is gibberish if you can't follow the math.

      I wonder if this is worse than the science popularizations (esp in physics) that are gibberish because they contain no math.

      I know I treat a physics book that does not have at least one equation a page with deep suspicion.

      One of my favorite physics books is Misner Wheeler and Thorne's "Gravitation". Not only is it full of math, but you can use it experimentally as a gravitational field generator.

      --
      Squirrel!
    2. Re:If you want it to make sense... by DustMagnet · · Score: 1
      I found it a real tough balancing between learning and grades during my CS education. As an undergrad, it was a trade off between tough courses that teach more and those with easy As. I took the harder courses most of the time and made the wrong choice in both direction. The trade off got worse and more complex in grad school. Eventually I decided to accept Bs in graduate school (Cs were unheard of) to get the knowledge I wanted. I've never regretted that decision.

      The profs have more experience, but also more bias. Sometimes they just put you through hoops that don't teach you want you want and/or need to learn.

      Now, as I get older, I'm more often on the other side of this. Yet the problem isn't any easier. Figuring out to teach people is harder than figuring out what to learn.

      --
      'SBEMAIL!' is better than a goat!!
  10. time for a new acronym by hackronym0 · · Score: 2, Funny
    RTFS - Read The Frelling Summary

    Man, I was thinking this was an awesome book, but after scrolling through like 2 pages of the summary, I felt like I had been hit by a truck

    Refer your friends, get an ipod
    --
    This is completely false. This is not a sig.
    1. Re:time for a new acronym by bandy · · Score: 1

      PDWD - Packed Deep With Dren

      --
      "You might as well get your son a ticket to hell as give him a five string banjo." -unknown minister
    2. Re:time for a new acronym by Nykon · · Score: 1

      This book is rated M++
      For too much math :)

      --
      "It's better to be a pirate then join the Navy"
  11. Most of them by MikeMacK · · Score: 2, Funny
    Otherwise I can't recommend it -- the book is gibberish if you can't follow the math.

    Pretty much sums up most physics books I've ever seen.

    1. Re:Most of them by rokzy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      you obviously haven't seen "A Brief History of Time", "In Search of Schrodinger's Cat", "Schrodinger's Kittens" and many other non-maths physics books.

    2. Re:Most of them by sxtxixtxcxh · · Score: 1

      i read this one... true to the form of physics books, there was an unexpected plot twist at the end.

      it turns out everything we thought we knew and backed up with math and logic, was wrong. beware of the guy at the end of the universe, i hear he's real strict on who gets in...

      --
      for a minute there, i lost myself...
    3. Re:Most of them by MikeMacK · · Score: 2, Funny

      I've heard of them, unfortuneately my professors obviously haven't.

    4. Re:Most of them by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      I thought it was really easy to get into Milliways. And then all sorts of neat stuff happens- the cow comes by and asks what steak it can donate for your dinner, and later on the universe will be ending for your entertainment.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    5. Re:Most of them by Christopher+Thomas · · Score: 3, Insightful

      you obviously haven't seen "A Brief History of Time", "In Search of Schrodinger's Cat", "Schrodinger's Kittens" and many other non-maths physics books.

      These are "physics books" the way "the matrix" is a computing and AI primer. That is to say, they tell you that several of the important concepts exist, in a way that's entertaining, but don't do much to tell you how to actually _use_ them.

      At best, "physics overview for the layman", as opposed to "physics reference".

    6. Re:Most of them by wass · · Score: 4, Informative
      The reviewer raves about this book (despite not recommending it at the end), but IMHO misjudges the level or prerequisites of the reader that this book might interest. I'm a graduate physics student who didn't read this book (actually I never heard of it until now), but I'd like to throw in some comments that differ from those of the reviewer.

      This book sounds pretty cool, but I disagree with the reviewer regarding the level of the book, which I can gauge from the reviewer's comments. The reviewer tends to think it's well beyond advanced undergraduate physics classes, but from the material involved I think it's somewhere between the intro and advanced undergrad classes. It sounds like this book would be useful for armchair physicists that would like to get their hands a little more dirty, people minoring in physics, and physics majors wanting a little more 'oomph' before their 'real' classes kick in. But IMHO, one definitely shouldn't need to be a grad student in math or physics to enjoy this book as the reviewer implies.

      For example, the reviewer writes "It reads like an advanced college physics book, except without extra examples or redundant explanation -- he expects you to be smart or motivated enough to keep up."

      So upon reading that one assumes the reviewer at least took some decently advanced calculus-based physics classes well beyond the freshman level (like a two-semester class of E&M or quantum mechanics, or classical mechanics).

      But then the reviewer says "Your book might give you Kepler's second law: a planet sweeps out equal areas of its ellipse in equal times. But why? We'll just call it 'conservation of angular momentum'; that should hold you plebes. But in Shaggy Steed you'll find the equations like this that you might have thought were fundamental falling out of the woodwork, built up from the real fundamentals."

      This quote right here reveals that the reviewer hasn't been exposed to any 'advanced' physics classes, maybe just advanced introductory ones. Only the intro classes will 'tell' you about Kepler's 2nd law and conservation of angular momentum. This concept, though, is usually proved and derived from the fundamentals in any reasonable undergraduate physics mechanics class beyond the freshman-level class. Such an undergraduate level mechanics class would, for example, use the textbooks by Arya or Marion/Thornton.

      Similarly with motion in phase space, simple harmonic motion, Lagrangian equations of motion, the energy eigenstates of the hydrogen atom (this would be in the quantum mechanics class), etc. These are all topics which are examined from the fundamentals, and encountered usually within the first two or three years of an undergraduate physics curriculum.

      So the Shaggy Steed is a book somewhere beyond the intro physics classes, but not as difficult as the more advanced undergraduate physics classes, where the majors start going. Note - if you really like this low-level sort of stuff, though, you might seriously consider majoring or minoring in physics.

      So I disagree when the poster writes "It's a beautiful book if you're a graduate-level student of math or physics..." Most of the material covered seems to be the standard fare that the typical undergraduate physics major will encounter, and some of these topics will likely be encountered several times prior to graduation.

      --

      make world, not war

    7. Re:Most of them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While I would be loath to lump In Search of Schrodinger's Cat with a book as clear and well composed as A Brief History of Time, I do think a clarification of classification is in order. These are books that aim at giving the reader a conceptual understanding, not a technical understanding. You are right that this conceptual approach is by definition limited in its presentation--an unavoidable sacrifice given the specific ignorance of the audiences being addressed. You are wrong, however, to compare them to The Matrix, which, at best, uses concepts from AI and computing. This is utterly unrelated to a work that tries to explain concepts in layman's terms.

    8. Re:Most of them by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 1
      beware of the guy at the end of the universe, i hear he's real strict on who gets in...

      She's not a guy. (See The Books of Magic to see her putting the chairs up on the tables at the end of time.)

      And she treats everyone pretty much the same...

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    9. Re:Most of them by quax · · Score: 1

      as a physist I enjoyed reading "A Brief History of Time" because I know a bit about the physics behind it at enjoyed the conversational tone of the books. Yet, I think without this background this book would just have given me very strange ideas about the universe "lies to children" as Terry Pratchett is fond of calling it. There is only so much that can be truely comprehended without Mathematics.

    10. Re:Most of them by computer_chacham · · Score: 1

      I'm a physics major; I tried reading the book summer after my junior year. I kinda gave up. Many parts are as hard as a grad level book, but not explained as well, and no problems to work out to help you understand it.(IIRC) I haven't looked at it in a while, so I might understand it better now. It was fun to skim through and ooh and ahh over some of the cooler parts though. You really can't judge the difficulty level of the book without looking at it. Just because I learned about Lagrangians or phase space already didn't mean I could follow all the arguments. (or at least without a very large amount of effort on my part.)

    11. Re:Most of them by wass · · Score: 1
      Hi, I also did my undergrad physics study at Penn, graduated back in '97. (from your email address I'm assuming you're there now).

      Fay Selove taught the 2-semester undergrad mechanics class back then, I think most other schools do only 1 semester of mechanics. We used Marion/Thornton.

      Anyway, yeah, we did Lagrangians, Hamiltonians, coupled oscillations, the standard fare. Of course I didn't fully comprehend it all the first time around either. But my main problem with this review was the reviewer seeming awed at proving Kepler's 2nd law from the fundamentals, which you can pretty much do early on w/ conservation of angular momentum.

      It seems weird, though, that this book is not categorized as a primary physics text, but more of a 'cool things in mechanics' text instead, if it's in fact as difficult as you say. Although it's certainly possible for any author to make a lower-level text appear much harder than it should be by not choosing the most illustrious mathematical path to demonstrate the physics involved.

      If you're curious, I highly recommend the Landau-Lifshitz series. The mechanics book (Volume 1) is super slim (and that's including a long biography of L.D. Landau), and even covers many topics well into grad-level studies. But the author is so clear, and doesn't put any superfluous equations in there, it really makes sense. Perfect for people with attention problems, like myself, because it's harder to get lost. You should seriously go to the bookstore (it used to be a pathetic classroom-sized bookstore when i was there, but the new multi-storied bookstore is pretty cool now) and at least look at it, maybe the first few pages at least. I know they have at least some of the Landau-Lifshitz series because I bought Volume 5 (Statistical Mechanics Part 1) when I was last there three years ago!

      --

      make world, not war

    12. Re:Most of them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      YEah, I hate it when people trivialise physics in this way, then offer misleading pedagogical advise . I have had to hear many laymen with the effrontery to lecture us physicists on ideas which they have picked up from these bullshit sources (without taking aa single course or reading a single page of Goldstein/Cohen-Tannoudji). I typically flame them with shit and send them off on their way...

    13. Re:Most of them by RWerp · · Score: 1

      Mod the parent up. Landau-Lifshitz are creme-de-la-creme of physics textbooks. Putting it less subtly:

      Landau-Lifshitz rulez!

      --
      "Long run is a misleading guide to current affairs. In the long run we are all dead." (John Maynard Keynes)
  12. Re:wtf by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny
    without loosing all interest...

    Do you mean to say you've unleashed your interest upon the world? Or did you mean to say that you've lost your interest, as in "losing?"

  13. Small nit-pick by Seydlitz · · Score: 1

    Perhaps I'm behind the times, but aren't gravitational force-carrying particles simply conjecture at this point in time? Yes, they're logical and fit nicely into our understanding of the three [four] fundamental forces, but they aren't scientific fact yet by any means of the term - perhaps at most a theory that makes sense, but we've found impossible to test. But like I said, maybe I'm just behind the times.

    1. Re:Small nit-pick by Chuckstar · · Score: 3, Informative

      Gravitons (the gravitational force carrying particles) are still very much hypothetical. They are postulated merely because all other forces seem to have a particle that carries them. Certain quantum theories of gravity require them, but no one has a really good quantum theory of gravity yet anyway. However, the fact that gravity does not act instantaneously has been observed. So there does need to be some way to propogate gravity from one location to another. There does need to be some type of wave, particle, or both transmitting gravitational information at the speed of light (or very close to that speed).

  14. Confused? by AcidFnTonic · · Score: 1

    Anyone here care to explain to someone not yet finished with higher level maths.....?

    --
    Sometimes the majority just means all the morons are on the same side.
  15. Inappropriate by MikeMacK · · Score: 3, Funny
    The Arch-Druid then instructed him thus: "Take," said he, "yonder little shaggy steed, and mount him immediately

    Kind of inappropriate if you ask me.

    1. Re:Inappropriate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and then the hero replied pray sir wont it be appropriate to put it in vfstab.

  16. shaggy lost dog story by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I glean from the review that the book is a detailed examination of the two-body model for object interactions, from femtoscopic to macroscopic, in the original, untranslated mathematical language. But what has all that got to do with a small, shaggy horse? I can guess from the Slashdot summary that the model is like the small Irish steed, guiding its rider to exciting, unknown places. But does that mean that the long review isn't as relevant to a synopsis as the Slashdot summary, and that the first line of this post is the capsule review proclaimed impossible by the reviewer?

    --

    --
    make install -not war

  17. I want to read it! by DonDiablo · · Score: 1

    Ohh, I am salivating already! Thanks for the reference!!!

  18. Current Amazon sales rank. . . by Sialagogue · · Score: 3, Informative


    1,082,811

    --
    The only acceptable defense of scientific results is to say that they were the product of the Scientific Method.
    1. Re:Current Amazon sales rank. . . by wisdom_brewing · · Score: 1

      Amazon.com Sales Rank: 2,051 -- the slashdot effect in its new form

  19. Re:Huh? by Gentlewhisper · · Score: 1

    "I just stopped reading right there. What does this have to do with news for nerds?"

    It is something for physics nerds!

    We start out by defining coordinate spaces and deciding that we're interested in Newtonian/Galilean rather than Einsteinian physics for the moment, since our subjects travel slowly enough and relativity makes things nastier. We start with a particle that has two vectors -- position and velocity. Turn this into two ensembles of rigid body particles exerting force upon each other. From this we build up the laws of motion, arriving at the total energy H of the system, and the 'gene of motion,' the Lagrangian: the difference between the kinetic and potential energy. 'Gene of motion' is a pretty bold claim, so we are shown how every mechanical quantity of the system may be derived from the Lagrangian. From there it's on to the 'action' principle, which is basically the integral of the Lagrangian...

  20. Math Explains Nothing by Louis+Savain · · Score: 0, Troll

    Equations festoon the pages, daring you to ignore them. But you may not, they're fundamental to the discussion. Mr. Oliver opines that anyone with basic undergraduate math should be able to handle it.

    If you have to use math to explain something to someone else, it is because you do not truly understand it at its fundamamental level. Math does not explain anything. On the contrary, it is the math that cries for a physical explanation.

    As an example, neither Newtonian's inverse square law nor Einstein's GR equations explain why things fall. They just describe the motion of massive bodies with respect to one another.

    1. Re:Math Explains Nothing by stevelinton · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The don't explain why things fall, but they explain with superb beauty and conciseness how things fall. Asking why things happen is verging into the realm of philosophy, rather than physics.

    2. Re:Math Explains Nothing by Aardpig · · Score: 1

      Of all the scientific fields, only physicists make this idiotic claim. Why? Because they really have no clue as to what is really going on. All other sciences are based on causality, from biology to psychology to artificial intelligence and computer science. Physicists have fallen in love with ignorance and pedantry.

      Says a well-known crackpot, whose loony posts to sci.physics.relativity are the sole driving force behind the ever-bouyant market for humour-related incontinence pads.

      Just search through Google Newsgroups for "Louis Savain"; you're sure to get a taste of his clever fusion between conspiracy theory and moronic pseudoscience!

      --
      Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
    3. Re:Math Explains Nothing by feyhunde · · Score: 1
      It's where you draw the line.

      Ever hear a kid ask why, then hear and explination and ask why a second time? Eventually you have to give up or say it's a matter of philosophy.

      I can explain why we eat because we need fuel.

      Why?

      Because cells move and divide and need energy.

      Why?

      Chemical processes in the cell need energy coming in to provide energy going out.

      Why?

      Energy is conserved according to the laws of physics.

      Why?

      Dunno, Philosophy?

      --
      I'd say more, but my guild is raiding.
    4. Re:Math Explains Nothing by cens0r · · Score: 1

      Do you really think biologists and psychologysts have any idea of what's going on? They have no idea why animal brains work the way they do. They just treat things they don't understand as a black box to be ignored. All biology is really just chemistry, and all chemistry is just physics.

      --
      Jack Valenti and Orrin Hatch will be first up against the wall when the revolution comes.
    5. Re:Math Explains Nothing by Too+Much+Noise · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Physics is based on causality also - at several levels, too. Who'd have thought!

      Here's a clue: a model of the Universe (or parts of it) is just that - a model. Meaning it describes the howaccurately enough, but does not explain the why . And guess what - causality is part of the reason.

      But hey, don't let reason stand in the way of a good troll. This is /. after all.

    6. Re:Math Explains Nothing by strook · · Score: 1
      If you have to use math to explain something to someone else, it is because you do not truly understand it at its fundamamental level.

      I challenge you to explain why it is safe to send my credit card number to Amazon through untrusted servers without using mathematics. Or does nobody understand that at its fundamental level?

      --

      "TV is great! Every New Year's I make a resolution to watch more TV." - Ann Coulter

    7. Re:Math Explains Nothing by RobiOne · · Score: 1

      Math really does not explain much. It only serves as a tool to express ones observations and presumptions.

      Most of the world has no idea of what is really going on, like most think the Sun is scorching hot with out any real proof other than what they feel on a sunny day.
      Try googling for "the sun is cold" and learn something.

      --
      -- Robi
    8. Re:Math Explains Nothing by Aardpig · · Score: 1

      And your opinion matters to me because...?

      LOL, you even use the same kooky lines on /., as in your newsgroup ramblings.

      DRINK! (and then pack it up your ass)

      --
      Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
    9. Re:Math Explains Nothing by Stalyn · · Score: 1

      If you have to use math to explain something to someone else, it is because you do not truly understand it at its fundamamental level.

      No Math is probably the only language expressive enough to somewhat communicate all those beautiful visual images I can create in my head.

      --
      The best education consists in immunizing people against systematic attempts at education. - Paul Feyerabend
    10. Re:Math Explains Nothing by Aardpig · · Score: 1

      And your opinion matters to me because...?

      I didn't express an opinion, I stated a fact. Are you not the same 'Louis Savain' whose posts to sci.physics.relativity, amongst other Usenet groups, are the source of much ridicule and disdain?

      --
      Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
    11. Re:Math Explains Nothing by pla · · Score: 1

      I challenge you to explain why it is safe to send my credit card number to Amazon through untrusted servers without using mathematics.

      On one side you have Alice. On the other, you have Bob.

      Alice sends Bob a box containing an unlocked padlock, for which she has the only key.

      Bob puts a message for Alice in the box, and uses the padlock to lock the box. He then sends it back to Alice.

      It dosn't matter how he sends the box back to Alice, because she has the only key.


      Now, we need to add one more layer to this, since Charles might have intercepted the box from Alice, replaced her lock with his own, send the box on to Bob, intercepted it on the return, and replaced his own lock with Alice's. They call this the "Man in the Middle" attack.

      The solution? A fourth party, Diane, sells pre-locked box-and-key pairs, and can "certify" that a given key belongs to a given lock which belongs to a given box. Thus, Bob can make sure the lock and box both came from Alice, and can Alice can know that she gets back the same box (in case Charles smashed the original box open and managed to use an entirely new box with the same lock).


      Satisfied?

    12. Re:Math Explains Nothing by Tungbo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Math does not explain anything. On the contrary, it is the math that cries for a physical explanation."

      Math indeed does not explain anything, but it also does not require any physical explanation. Mathematical propositions are true or false in their own realm which is entirely distinct from the physical realm. I recommend reading some Wittgenstein for more insights and clarity on this matter.

    13. Re:Math Explains Nothing by Louis+Savain · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      I didn't express an opinion, I stated a fact. Are you not the same 'Louis Savain' whose posts to sci.physics.relativity, amongst other Usenet groups, are the source of much ridicule and disdain?

      And your point is...?

    14. Re:Math Explains Nothing by photon317 · · Score: 1


      His point is that you're a crackpot. I've read your writing too. You want to know why all the other sciences deal directly with causality and physics doesn't? I'll tell you. It's because all of the other sciences are essentially specialized subfields of physics, and generally abstracted to a higher level than physicists work at. Ultimately, in any other branch of science, when you follow the scientific chain of causality, it leads back to physics, every time. Physics is the study of the lowest-level functioning of the reality we live in, whatever it is. You can only ask for a causal Why at the lowest layers of current physics (at any given time) for two reasons - either as a philosophical side-track that has little to do with furthering physics, or to prompt the unpeeling of another layer in the physics onion (Why do protons and neutrons and electrons behave as they do? Aha, it's those damn quarks, we've unravelled another onion layer, yay for physics, and so forth). Eventually we'll reach the very bottom, if one exists.

      --
      11*43+456^2
    15. Re:Math Explains Nothing by wass · · Score: 1, Insightful
      Yes and no.

      Without math, you can learn a little something qualitatively of modern physics by reading some of the popular physics books of the day, like Brief History of Time, etc. Many of these authors convey nicely at a high level how and why things happen.

      But if you want to know the details, you need math. Quantum mechanics is interesting because it's like a manifestation of linear algebra. Why does an operator reduce a wavefunction to one of the eigenstates of said wavefunction? That concept is one of the most central concepts to quantum mechanics, yet you wouldn't understand what eigenstates or wavefunctions are without some knowledge of math. If you explain it using only words, you're still beating around the bush, and basically it's the math that you would be describing.

      Finally, to prove your example is crap, please explain using words why things fall. If your description involves anything about gravitons or Higgs bosons, please explain why they form, why gravitons should be spin-2, what a spin-2 boson field implies, etc, without using math. Basic answer - you cannot.

      --

      make world, not war

    16. Re:Math Explains Nothing by Vreejack · · Score: 1

      I believe Louis Savain now calls himself "Traveler" on usenet. He's been a crackpot fixture for many years. He is currently claiming that the xian bible predicts the development of artificial intelligence technology.

      But his best known comment is this annoying rejoinder, applied whenever he does not have an answer:

      "And your point is...?"

      Somehow he thinks that nullifies whatever point you just made, whether reasoned and sublime or terse and derogatory. It seems to be his mantra.

      --
      "Will future ages believe that such stupid bigotry ever existed!" -- Ivanhoe
    17. Re:Math Explains Nothing by Matimus · · Score: 1

      I believe that this book is not fundamentally about physics, its fundamentally about a math problem. Using math to explain math is completely valid. That is, unless you doubt the axioms of addition and subtraction. The physics part of it is there because it is the prime motivation for for solving the math.

      Of course that is only one way of thinking about it. It should also be noted however that experimentation is an extrememly important part of the scientific process, and calculation plays an important roll in formulating hypothesis.

      --
      GENERATION 25: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social exper
    18. Re:Math Explains Nothing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you have to use math to explain something to someone else, it is because you do not truly understand it at its fundamamental level. Math does not explain anything. On the contrary, it is the math that cries for a physical explanation.

      Math is simply a formalized language. English and other languages, in general, are not formal enough and do not have the proper parts of speech to express physical reality. Mathematics has long been recognized as a language that has a very concise and complete description of most physical phenomena.

      I challenge you to produce explainations of why things happen in our universe using common English (or another non-mathematical language). For instance, explain momentum. "Bodies in motion tend to stay in motion" is NOT the correct answer, by the way. That's only a small discription of the conservation of energy aspect of momentum.

    19. Re:Math Explains Nothing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Satisfied?

      I'd like to know how many pins I should use in my lock to keep my credit card safe.

      I'd also like to know why we need a fourth party to certify boxes. If a fourth party can certify boxes, why can't Alice and Bob? How does certification work?

    20. Re:Math Explains Nothing by danmitchell · · Score: 1

      As an example, neither Newtonian's [sic] inverse square law nor Einstein's GR equations explain why things fall. They just describe the motion of massive bodies with respect to one another.

      Wrong. Newton doesn't explain why things fall, but Einstein does: things fall because things change the shape of space.

      --
      The problem with God is that he thinks he's Richard Wagner
    21. Re:Math Explains Nothing by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 1
      when you follow the scientific chain of causality, it leads back to physics, every time

      It would be more accurate to say that following the reductionist chain of causality, it leads back to physics. Science (the method of testing hypothesis by experiment and observation) != reductionism (trying to explain things by explaining their parts). Physicists are great reductionists and are often blind to the difference, a sort of "physics hubris".

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    22. Re:Math Explains Nothing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Math really does not explain much. It only serves as a tool to express ones observations and presumptions.


      yes, and precisely and concisely as we know how. that's the best we can do (a refreshing bit about that is that it expresses presumptions just as visibly as the observations). if you mean "explain" as the answers to "why" chain, then nothing "explains" anything. as others have pointed out, the why chain goes on infinitely until you tell'em to shut the f*** up.


      Most of the world has no idea of what is really going on, like most think the Sun is scorching hot with out any real proof other than what they feel on a sunny day.
      Try googling for "the sun is cold" and learn something.


      i presume that you do have a valid idea of "what's really going on," then, unlike most of the world? what would be an adequate proof that sun is hot on the surface/perimeter? how should one think in order to have a valid idea of "what is really going on?"

      try real studying (and i don't mean googling) and learn something.

    23. Re:Math Explains Nothing by photon317 · · Score: 1


      Well, I'm not a scientist of any type, much less a physicist. I guess my layman brain just happens to be more aligned with the physicists' worldview :)

      After reading your post, I'm inclined to think that the whole point of science is to construct a reductionist set of explanations that branches from the lowest levels of physics upwards to explaining everything else that needs explaining. Science is just how we conduct experiments in an attempt to flesh out this reductionist knowledge.

      --
      11*43+456^2
    24. Re:Math Explains Nothing by This+is+outrageous! · · Score: 2, Informative
      Quantum mechanics is interesting because it's like a manifestation of linear algebra. Why does an operator reduce a wavefunction to one of the eigenstates of said wavefunction?

      Eigenstates of said *operator*. And the operator does not "reduce a wavefunction to an eigenstate" -- a *measurement* does (allegedly).

      --
      This is...

      O
      U
      T
      R
      A
      G
      E
      O
      U
      S

      !

    25. Re:Math Explains Nothing by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 1
      I'm inclined to think that the whole point of science is to construct a reductionist set of explanations that branches from the lowest levels of physics upwards to explaining everything else that needs explaining.

      In our physics-heavy culture, that's a common viewpoint. It's also a problematic one, what Dennet calls Greedy reductionism.

      I would say rather that the point of science is to construct models that sucessfully organize and predict our observations of the world. Reductionist models are useful, but (like any other type of model) they emphasize some aspects at the expense of others.

      We say "x is y and z", and we think that if we can explain "y" and explain "z" we're done - foregetting that we have also to explain "and", and also that x, y, and z only have meaning in relation to a, b, c, etcetera.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    26. Re:Math Explains Nothing by wass · · Score: 1

      ACK, thanks for noting that, I typed too fast. IO should have said "Why does a measurement operator reduce a wavefunction to one of the eigenstates of said operator". Wonder how many other /.ers noticed...

      --

      make world, not war

    27. Re:Math Explains Nothing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good god? Is that the only security that I have on my transmissions? What's to prevent a criminal from breaking the padlock off the box?

    28. Re:Math Explains Nothing by Mjaum · · Score: 1

      And this is *not* reductionism?

      *grins*

      Most amusing.

      -da Mjaum

    29. Re:Math Explains Nothing by KillerLoop · · Score: 1

      I beg to differ on what kind of level of abstraction your are operating. Chemistry IS NOT just physics, as there is a whole load of different aspects to chemistry IN ADDITION to physics.

      Disclaimer:
      I firmly reject the is-of-identity as described in Alfred Korzybski's "Science and Sanity". See also "General Semantics".

    30. Re:Math Explains Nothing by pla · · Score: 1

      What's to prevent a criminal from breaking the padlock off the box?

      Because it takes an NSA-sized sledgehammer to do so.

      Now, if either the contents of the message, or the value of replacing it with a different message, might interest the NSA, well, you can't make a thick enough tinfoil beanie to keep them out.

      The NSA, however, doesn't really care about your choice of Fleshlight inserts. ;-)

    31. Re:Math Explains Nothing by 1iar_parad0x · · Score: 1

      Mathematics is the method of formal reason quantified.

      So, you're right. Physical interpretation must be placed upon the mechanics of reason in order to extract some sort of predictability.

      --
      What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean....
    32. Re:Math Explains Nothing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Actually, way back when I was a Math and Physics major (oh so many years ago), the head of the chemestry department and I had a long talk about this. The (albeit overly simple and short version) of the conclusion is that chemestry really is just a simplified view (not that I say it is simple) of what is happening at the atomic and sub-atomic level (aka - the physics of the system).

      The problem is that even the some of the basic reactions played with in 1st semester freshman chemestry class would take significant amount of time to work out in the atomic and sub-atomic relm. And there really is no reason not to simplify things such that harder problems can be solved.

      This is much like high-level languages which produce machine code which then actually causes individual logic gates to fire in the right sequence which are actually made up of a set of transistors and other electronic components. Thus, a program such as "grep" is fully explainable in terms of a set of electronic parts but it would be unreasonable to expect people to bother doing so - thus the higher level of abstraction and simplification (again, not that it is *simple* but it removes all of those ugly details)

      So, while chemestry is based on the physics of what happens, chemestry is not physics any more than software is electronics.

    33. Re:Math Explains Nothing by stevelinton · · Score: 1

      Physics has lots to say about causality. Special relativity describes how, from the perspective of any observer at a particular point and time, the rest of the universe is consistently partitioned into past, future and the rest. It is however symmetrical between past and future.

      Quantum mechanics is also almost past/future symmetric, although to get exact symmetry you have to also flip left and right and replace particles by their anti-particles.

      Statistical mechanics is the place where the arrow of time really shows itself. From a statistical perspective many features of the current state of the universe are unlikely (for instance almost all the matter being hydrogen, rather than having fused to become rather hotter helium). These unlikely features tend to fade away with time, simply because they are unlikely, in the process creating all sorts of transient complexity (life, and sprial galaxies, for instance). This process is basically one-way, because getting back into the more ordered state is very unlikely.

      Thus mechanisms by which events at different times can be related, which one might term causaility are nicely described by physics.

      In my view though this is still "how", not "why".

      Steve

    34. Re:Math Explains Nothing by RobiOne · · Score: 1

      For proof either way, one needs the full disclosure of the entire scientific community. Since this includes all the classified data, including the real data of our trips to outer space, the population is out of luck.

      There is nothing I can say to prove it to you, unless you see the anomalies and wonder why.
      Even then you'll need to use your own head.

      Good luck

      --
      -- Robi
    35. Re:Math Explains Nothing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Math indeed does not explain anything,

      Math does explain (some) things. Note it's not the equations themselves that explain things, but Mathematics as a field of study.

      Mathematicians make up abstract categories 'X' like a "vector field", and then define them "something is an X if it has properties A, B and C." They then go on to derive other properties of the category from those defined properties. "An X does F - it has G and T, and when it interacts with M, the result is P." These arise from the properties A, B and C, and are independant of any other properties a specific system that is an X has.

      Now the physicist comes along with system S, and observes it has properties A, B and C. From mathematics, we can conclude "system S does F - it has G and T, and when it interacts with M, the result is P, because S is an X." In essence, mathematics has explained why S has G and T, etc.

      Saying that mathematics did not explain why S has G, because it doesn't expalin why S has properties A, B, and C is like saying that "why the cock crowed" is not explained by "because the sun rose" since it does not explain why the sun rose.

    36. Re:Math Explains Nothing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Wrong. Newton doesn't explain why things fall, but Einstein does: things fall because things change the shape of space.

      I can see why gravity-warped space causes a moving particle's vector to change, following the new curve; I just can't see how a non-moving particle should start to move.

      I've seen this as the old "bowling ball on a rubber sheet" example. Marbles dropped on the sheet roll around, eventually to the edge of the ball. But why do they move in the first place? Gravity in a direction orthogonal to the unstretched sheet. Using gravity to explain gravity.

      Maybe the entire universe is being accelerated in some direction orthogonal to our dimensions?

      -- AC

  21. Let's sound smarter than we are by andy314159pi · · Score: 2, Funny

    Mathematical Physicists tend to apply solutions to differential equations like the 2-body Shrodinger's equation as if they know how to solve an arbitrary differential equation. This type of posturing is probably the kind that you see in this book. The problem being described is actually found in just about every undergraduate modern physics textbook and every physical chemistry textbook. The way mathematical physics is delivered to an audience usually sends them as far away from the subject as possible. It is really possible for somebody to write the "kinder, gentler" textbook of mathematical physics. The subject is a pain in the ass, but not as much a pain in the ass as those who teach and practice it.

    1. Re:Let's sound smarter than we are by feyhunde · · Score: 1

      Not all. I had a physics prof who was married to a math prof. They both have their own research areas that scare the heck outta me with the math, but know how to tone it down to undergrads. My undergraduate courses got overhauled and replaced by a new pilot program that breaks the work up into problem types. This makes mathmatical physics much easier to deal with then subject area. Rather than skipping to the hardest parts 'cause you gotta finish mechanics before em' you go in a much more sensible manor. We had an entire course on wave motion, going from a string to a spring to em waves in coax to hydrogen atoms. It makes is much easier to understand when you can always point back a few steps with a clear every day example.

      --
      I'd say more, but my guild is raiding.
    2. Re:Let's sound smarter than we are by deglr6328 · · Score: 1

      Mathematical Physicists tend to apply solutions to differential equations like the 2-body Shrodinger's equation as if they know how to solve an arbitrary differential equation.

      Gosh, I wonder what the artistic physicists think...

      --
      - "Hear that?! The percolations are imminent! Cease your ingress!"
    3. Re:Let's sound smarter than we are by N7DR · · Score: 1
      Gosh, I wonder what the artistic physicists think...

      If it isn't beautiful, it isn't true.

    4. Re:Let's sound smarter than we are by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If it isn't beautiful, it isn't true.

      You know, that sentiment actually isn't too far from the bias of many physicists, particularly the string theory people.

  22. correction to the equation by coast99 · · Score: 1

    The exemplary equation does not make much
    sense as it is and should really be:
    df/dt = \partial f / \partial t + [] ...

    I am using LaTex notation where \partial t is the
    partial derivative with respect to t and dt is
    of course the total derivative.

    By the way, the book seems to be a solid introductory text for physics students.
    Nothing more nothing less ...

  23. Re:wtf by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    i'd like to be the third person to tell you that you used the wrong word. maybe this massive humiliation will help you remember?

  24. Is This /. or by phobos13013 · · Score: 1

    Im really surprised at some of these responses... i would really have expected most of you folks out there to be able to understand the chain rule and poisson notation. Granted its a little lame to be in a fantasy book, but sounds pretty interesting and a good quality review. Thats my two bits.

    --
    ...and it should be known by now
    1. Re:Is This /. or by MustardMan · · Score: 1

      Chain rule I can see. Poisson brackets are not exactly common in the IT/CS crowd that tends to be drawn to /.

      As far as the fantasy book thing, did you bother to RTFA? This is a physics book, it has about as much to do with fantasy as Blazing Saddles has to do with Sci-Fi.

    2. Re:Is This /. or by phobos13013 · · Score: 1

      ok, i didnt rtfa till after i posted but still even if it is a textbook (the price shoulda gave it away...) the review didnt give hint to this fact. Only following the bnr link did i get it. Anyway, i wasnt going to read it either way.

      --
      ...and it should be known by now
    3. Re:Is This /. or by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The real problem is that the reviewer has only read one book one analytical mechanics, so he cannot compare with oither books on the same subject. He has written a review that would fit any book on analytical mechanics. The only news is that the book also includes a chapter about symmetry, and relates to quantum mechanics.

    4. Re:Is This /. or by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obviously you haven't read the responses to the stories about nano-tech :)

  25. Another very good book by phr1 · · Score: 5, Informative
    Structure and Interpretation of Classical Mechanics, by Gerald Jay Sussman and Jack Wisdom:

    MIT Press blurb

    The book is also online in html form. It sounds like you weren't used to the Lagrangian formulation of mechanics, which has been around for a long time but is usuually not taught in lower level undergrad physics courses (i.e. normal engineering physics). If you take an upper level class in classical mechanics, you'd cover it thoroughly. Sussman and Wisdom's book presents it in an interesting computer-inspired way. Note though that this is a textbook (with problem sets and all that), not a popularization.

    1. Re:Another very good book by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Note that this parallels the title of the Abelson and Sussman book, Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, which is the classic text for the first programming course at MIT and Berkeley.

      It's also availible online.

  26. What he really means about the math by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Mr. Oliver opines that anyone with basic undergraduate math should be able to handle it.

    What this really means is that the book is an entire treatise in the failure of the American educational system to produce people who know these things.

    I took 3 semesters of calculus, DiffEq (twice), and Discrete Math, and another class that mostly consisted of proving things which I condidered more of a logic class but was in the math department anyway, and I don't recognize most of the things in the review. Poisson brackets? Hooke motion?

    1. Re:What he really means about the math by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pressumably you studied math and this is a physics book :)

      Anyway here is a link for you: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PoissonBracket.html

  27. The restricted three-body problem... by Aardpig · · Score: 4, Informative

    Furthermore, anything more complex than the two-body problem is chaotic and incapable of exact solution, so it's up to the two-body problem to carry us along.

    Not quite; the restricted three-body problem, where one of the masses is infinitessimal compared to the other two, can be solved analytically. The solutions reveal the existence of five points where the net effective force on the massless third body vanishes -- these points being, of course, the Lagrange points familar to students of orbital mechanics.

    I'm surprised that the reviewer found so much of the material new; do college physics courses these days not include classical mechanics and the like?

    --
    Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
    1. Re:The restricted three-body problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My astrodynamics professor as an undergrad told those of us in class that if we could solve the unrestricted three-body problem, he would put us in for a PhD.

    2. Re:The restricted three-body problem... by kavau · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Not quite; the restricted three-body problem, where one of the masses is infinitessimal compared to the other two, can be solved analytically.

      Not quite; your example is not a three-body problem, but really a two-body problem in disguise. The equations of motion for the two finite masses can be solved separately, since they are not influenced by the infinitesimal mass. Then the problem reduces to a single particle (the one with infinitesimal mass) travelling in a time-varying field.

    3. Re:The restricted three-body problem... by HuguesT · · Score: 1

      You'd get a Nobel prize and a Fields medal at the same time, believe me.

    4. Re:The restricted three-body problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      His example is a perturbative solution. It is not an exact solution.

      However, there are a few exact solutions to the 3-body problem, but they are only measure zero in the set of all solutions.

      I have been trying to solve the 3-body problem for almost 5 years now. I have it reduced to corotating, coplanar coordinates and no further.

  28. Horse eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny
    A druid provides him a small shaggy horse which guides the prince on his quest through great trials and tribulations to a magical realm where he can obtain the necessary powers with which to bring peace to his land.

    I guess that in this book, before the prince rides away on his horse, that we start by assuming that it's a perfect sphere...
    1. Re:Horse eh? by kahei · · Score: 1

      ...of uniform density.

      We also assume the prince to be perfectly rigid.

      --
      Whence? Hence. Whither? Thither.
    2. Re:Horse eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...and their interaction to be completely frictionless.

    3. Re:Horse eh? by bobv-pillars-net · · Score: 1
      We also assume the prince to be perfectly rigid.

      ... and his princess equally frigid,

      And that, boys and girls, is why the kingdom is up for grabs to any wooly-headed farm-boy lucky enough to snatch a pig-sticker from a watery tart!

      Too bad it took a Lancelot to thaw her out.

      --
      The Web is like Usenet, but
      the elephants are untrained.
  29. Too light by Animats · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Speaking as the author of a physics engine for animation, "Physics for Game Developers" is a bit too light for an engine developer. The easy stuff (i.e. what you'd get in a college-level dynamics course) is covered, along with collision detection. But beyond that, the book does not take you.

    Basic problem with building a game physics engine: if you do all the obvious stuff, it sort of works. If you're competent, you should be to that point in a few months. Getting from "sort of works" to "works" is about 5x to 10x as hard as the first step. There are really only a few game physics engines out there that really work.

    You'll find out more about stiff systems of nonlinear differential equations than you ever wanted to know, if you don't give up first.

    It's interesting that the book talks about the problems that occur when you take into account the propagation delay of gravity. Game physics engines, having rather large time steps, have some similar problems. I'll have to read this and see if I get any new insights applicable to game engines.

    There's a related book, an ACM prizewinner, on the N-body problem. There's a clever numerical solution to the N-body problem that works for large N (millions), so you can simulate galaxies forming and such. The basic idea is that you can treat a group of bodies as a single body if they're near to each other and far away from the body being affected. This can be quantified and safe limits computed for grouping. It's thus a numerical solution with a proveable upper bound on the error, which bound can be made arbitrarily small at the cost of more computation. This is effectively as good as a closed-form solution, although some older mathematicians deride it as inelegant.

    1. Re:Too light by ben_place · · Score: 1
      There's a related book, an ACM prizewinner, on the N-body problem.
      Don't tell us the prizewinning book's name or anything, because then we might read it.

      But seriously, what is it?

  30. Layman's translation by Dhaos · · Score: 3, Informative

    Ok, a little layman summary:

    There's a fairly easy problem in physics. It's called the two-body problem. In it, you model (or predict) the motion of two objects in space as dictated by the force of gravity.

    It's based on the Newtonian equation for gravity, which is that the force of gravity acting on two objects is proportional to the square of their distances. To put this more simply, the force of gravity between two objects gets drastically weaker as they are moved farther away.

    All that being said, the main thrust of the book is apparently related to the three-or-more body problem. In it, the same basic equation is used. But since every body is being influenced by every other body, which are in turn being influenced by every other body, it gets very messy. Well-nigh uncalculateable, at least by people. The calculus just becomes too complex.

    Fortunately, the two-body problem establishes a good enough model, allowing for us to model the motion of planets in our solar system, so long as we take into account that there's some wobble we have to throw in.

    Now, I know this didn't explicitly cover the math, but basically, the book takes all of what I just said and builds it up from very basic to very complex mathematics.

    Or thats my understanding, anyway.

    --
    It's not what you know, or even who you know- It's how many people recognize your damn .sig
    1. Re:Layman's translation by rpresser · · Score: 1

      You neglected the important fact, made strongly in the review, that the first half of the book is devoted to deriving the commonly known equations, including Newton's,, that govern the two-body problem.

      I want very strongly to read this book....

    2. Re:Layman's translation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I pressume that he derives a mathematical formalism called analytical mechanics. This formalism is mathematically equivalent to Newtons law.

  31. Slightly OT.. by Capt'n+Hector · · Score: 2, Insightful
    [f,g] = (df/dqi*dg/dpi - dg/dqi * df/dpi)

    Feel free to mod me as such, but the review reminded me how horribly mathematics is represented in a browser. Wouldn't it be great if one day we could simply type:

    <latex>
    LaTeX code goes here...
    </latex>
    --
    Quid festinatio swallonis est aetherfuga inonusti?
    Africus aut Europaeus?
    1. Re:Slightly OT.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      MathML. Mozilla supports it, and there are already TeX->MathML converters out there.

    2. Re:Slightly OT.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This just goes to demonstrate that Dan Rather is telling the truth -- it 's practically impossible to produce small superscripted text on a computer, especially when compared to a good old reliable typewriter.

    3. Re:Slightly OT.. by gatzke · · Score: 2, Informative


      They do have a math markup, mathml.

      It is not real nice to use without some sort of editor to generate it. I think MathType does it in Windows.

      I think the latest Mozilla supports it:
      http://www.mozilla.org/projects/mathml/
      http ://pear.math.pitt.edu/mathzilla/Examples/marku pOftheWeek.mhtml

      Usually, it is probably better to make a pdf, but then you miss out on hyperlinks (unless you know how to stick them in your pdf)

    4. Re:Slightly OT.. by infolib · · Score: 2, Informative

      You can. If you write for Wikipedia.

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced libertarian utopia is indistinguishable from government.
    5. Re:Slightly OT.. by CFTM · · Score: 1

      Not to mention the fact that Adobe Acrobate Standard edition is going to run you $200.

    6. Re:Slightly OT.. by gatzke · · Score: 1


      If you run linux or windows, you can get a decent version of latex, ps2pdf, and lyx to make publication quality articles, books, or even web pages.

      latex makes nice postscript files
      lyx is a free latex editor (not quite WYSIWYG, but it makes latex less painful sometimes)
      ps2pdf works great to make postscripts into pdfs

      I have also used a combination of crossover, MS office, and ps2pdf to make nice PDF files out of word docs / powerpoint files.

      Oh yeah, and tgif makes great vector graphics for free.

      Free stuff, open formats, with source code so you can keep using the applications until you cannot build them anymore....

  32. gravitational force-carrying particles conjecture by RedLaggedTeut · · Score: 1
    Seydlitz says:
    Perhaps I'm behind the times, but aren't gravitational force-carrying particles simply conjecture at this point in time?
    I think so too, but if you consider vibrations and waves in a ten-dimensional space as that which makes up the universe, any "particle" is a concept that is optional.

    As long as you can't decently manipulate and measure the particle, I guess it up to your feeling of aesthics which model you follow.

    I personally believe in: God isn't rolling dice, God is playing billard. Peter Schaefer

    So no attractive particles for me, if feasible, although you could make up one if it makes calculations easier :-)

    --
    I'm still trying to figure out what people mean by 'social skills' here.
  33. Re:Huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny
    I know, it sounds like the beginnings of a bad porno.

    Ewww. There's just something with the combination "bad porno", "horse" and "shag" that's deeply disturbing...
  34. Re:Huh? by gcaseye6677 · · Score: 1

    This book is too nerdy even for nerds. I'm sure I'm not the only one who doesn't want to work post-graduate-level mathematics just to read a folk tale.

  35. Correct me if I'm wrong by DanielMarkham · · Score: 2

    But isn't physics built on math? And isn't math built on philosophy? And don't we still not have a good understanding of how gravity and electromagnetic radiation act? (take dark energy for one example, or the gravitational anomalies dealing with eclipses)

    So what we have is a complex system of symbology that is demonstrably incomplete? Why wouldn't I just want the easy version until somebody starts basing a calculus on something that may do better?

    BTW, does anybody know of a computer system that can create a calculus randomly and see where it goes, a la genetic programming, for instance? Might make a neat science fair project.

    1. Re:Correct me if I'm wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      An x86 should do it!

    2. Re:Correct me if I'm wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think it's more appropriate to say physisc is built with math... Besides, things don't stack up that nicely - there are philosophies and there are philosophies.

    3. Re:Correct me if I'm wrong by k98sven · · Score: 1

      You are wrong.

      But isn't physics built on math?

      No. Physics is built on postulates, basic assumptions about the world. These postulates can be expressed in mathematical terms, and using math you can evaluate the consequences. But it has nothing intrinsically to do with math, only with logic. Math is a system of logic.

      And isn't math built on philosophy?

      Math is built on logic. Logic is considered a field within philosophy. That doesn't really mean you can say math is built on philosophy.

      And don't we still not have a good understanding of how gravity and electromagnetic radiation act?

      No. These are two things that we happen to understand extremely well.

      (take dark energy for one example, or the gravitational anomalies dealing with eclipses)

      I'm not sure what the 'gravitational anomalites dealing with eclipses' is supposed to refer to. But you're completely off here. Just because you can't explain a phenomenon doesn't automatically mean there is something wrong with your fundamentals. It can also mean that you don't really understand what the phenomenon is. Dark matter is an excellent example of this.

      So what we have is a complex system of symbology that is demonstrably incomplete?

      Symbology? Obviously you don't know what you're talking about here. I think you mean either semiotics or symbolic logic.

      And then you seem to refer to Gödel's incompleteness theorem. Please explain what that has to do with physics. First, Gödel's theorem does not apply to all of mathematics. Arithmetic is a complete and consistent system.

      Secondly, physics is not based on math. An inconsistency in your mathematical model does not imply one in the underlying physics.

    4. Re:Correct me if I'm wrong by gedhrel · · Score: 1

      Arithmetic is NOT a complete and consistent system. Embedding the peano axioms is sufficient for a formal system to meet the criterion of "sufficiently complex".

      The GP asked about generating "random caluli" and seeing where they lead. "A new kind of Science" (whatever you think of it otherwise) has some interesting work along these lines, just looking at various algebras in purely symbolic terms. (Is there any other way to look at them? Well, I would characterise Wolfram's approach here as a more formal symbolic one than is usually used with many of the axiom systems in question.)

    5. Re:Correct me if I'm wrong by k98sven · · Score: 1

      Arithmetic is NOT a complete and consistent system. Embedding the peano axioms is sufficient for a formal system to meet the criterion of "sufficiently complex".

      Maybe I've misunderstood, but didn't Gentzen prove that the Peano axioms are consistent?

      Besides, this is still a moot point. Physics is not mathematics, regardless of what Wolfram thinks.

      His viewpoint is not shared by most physicists, so however interesting it may be, you can't use it to say what physics is.

      If you ask me, leaving empirical observation and entering into a world of pure mathematical abstraction will never advance physics.

    6. Re:Correct me if I'm wrong by DanielMarkham · · Score: 1

      LOL! Never ask on slashdot for people to correct you if you are wrong! Lesson learned.

      Sorry -- I read your reply and I don't think we are connecting. Whether you describe physics or math, both are built of postulates connected together by logic. Last I checked, connecting strings of postulates together is a basic tenet of philosophy, whether you're doing that in mathematical terms (using formal logic), or in experimental terms, using a common perception of reality (and associated issues dealing with observers and reality)

      And I would disaagree that we "have a good understanding" of gravity and electromagnetism. If anything, perhaps we could agree that to the limit of our current knowledge, we know a lot about them. But that's akin to saying 3000 years ago that the world is flat as far as we can see. While the system is interesting and self-consistant, it may or may not provide value to the user.

      "Just because you can't explain a phenomenon doesn't automatically mean there is something wrong with your fundamentals." -- well, it may or it may not. I think by definition you can't tell one way or another. And Occam's razor would not seem to apply, because the definition of changing systems means changing the perception of what is likely. Understanding a phenomenon is obviously different than understanding a new theorem, which is also fundamentally different than understanding the model itself may be incorrectly formed. 3 different subjects here.

      I meant symbology. A system of symbols in support of an associated system of logic (or philosophical reasoning, if you prefer)

      I didn't mention Godel, I simply pointed out that there are many observable things in the universe that after close analysis do not fit into our current model of everything. Heck, our current model of everything doesn't even fit together. Sure, arithmetic is complete -- but I know you're not extrapolating having a symbolic system of counting integers into a GUT.

      Physics is not based on math (thinking about that one). I understand what you are saying but would tend to disagree. Math and physics (in human terms) are so closely linked to be inexorably tied together, which ironically may be one of our problems. Observations in physics, from apples falling from trees on out, are quickly modeled in math and the math "checked" to make sure it describes the physical system. Then observations in the mathematical system are made and physics experiements are done to "check" the physics. To say one comes before or after the other seems a little simplistic to me.

      But hey, not only do I not know this stuff I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn last night. All I have experience with is lots of complex, human created systems or all sorts: self-consistant, complete, none of the above, etc. To me, this is just more of it, with people running around in the weeds wondering where the trees are.

    7. Re:Correct me if I'm wrong by gedhrel · · Score: 1

      Clarification: The assertion was that arithmetic was consistent and complete. My point is that it is not (consistent and complete) - not that it's (not consistent) and (not complete).

  36. Mod parent down... by Aardpig · · Score: 1

    ...on top of the fact that his post is meaningless (see other responses), this is the 'genius' who believes in 'Artificial Intelligence from the Bible'. See, for instance, this Google post.

    What a nutter!

    --
    Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
  37. Re:"Wittgenstein for more clarity" by nusratt · · Score: 3, Funny

    "I recommend reading some Wittgenstein for more insights and CLARITY[?!]"

    yes, and when you're done with that, round it all off with Kant, Hegel, and Sartre to make everything just peachy, crystal, transparent.

    or should I be merciful and shoot you first?

  38. Related reference by td · · Score: 4, Informative

    The prize-winning N-body book referred to in the parent is Leslie Greengard's 1987 PhD thesis, "The Rapid Evaluation of Potential Fields in Particle Systems".

    --
    -Tom Duff
  39. Re:"gravity does not act instantaneously" by nusratt · · Score: 1

    "the fact that gravity does not act instantaneously has been observed"

    wasn't it originally *deduced* before observation, by Einstein I believe?
    seems to me I recently saw this on PBS (in a show about string theory) -- something about a gedanken experiment about the change in the Earth's path if the sun vanished instantaneously, and how instantaneous gravity would be contradictory with non-instantaneous light.

    btw, it's "propAgation"

  40. Re:Huh?Excuse me? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "prince" "kingdom" "druid" "great trials and tribulations"

    How nerdy can you get?!?!?

  41. symbology? by loqi · · Score: 1

    OBSQ: "Symbology? What's the symbology there? I believe the word you are looking for is symbolism. What is the sym-bolism there?"

    --
    If other reasons we do lack, we swear no one will die when we attack
  42. this is another failure of physics education by Goldsmith · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That your average engineer, chemist or other science-minded college-educated person is not at least comfortable with Lagrangian mechanics is a failure of physics education.

    In physics we generally don't think in terms of Newtons Laws, but rather in terms of the action and fields.

    In my view, the lower level college physics classes which teach 18th century physics are a complete waste of time (as the review points out, all those laws fall out of more fundamental principals). The engineering students who are forced to take physics are not even given the chance to learn "real" physics, and the physics and other science majors who take it will simply be told to forget it and learn a better way of thinking a year later.

    I'm always asking people in my department (I'm a physics grad student) why in the world we teach these useless classes. Generally the defense is that people wouldn't learn the concepts if we taught them the real way, that the math would be too hard, and people would get caught up in it.

    They forget what it was like as an undergrad. Physics can be hard, even old, 18th century physics. When I've taught physics, people always get caught up in the math. The best we can do is to at least teach the right way, and introduce the right concepts. The math can be taught, packaged or explained.

    There has been very little effort that I have seen to put real physics concepts in a package which is understandable by your average freshman biology student. This book is obviously no exception. It does not have to be this hard, and physics does not have to be only for physicists. Why do we insist on complicated terminology and crazy sounding descriptions?

    I know that a lot of engineers and others out there have had more modern classical physics classes. Were they any good? Was your education in physics enlightening or frusterating? These issues really bug me, and I hope some of you out there have had better than I've seen.

    1. Re:this is another failure of physics education by gardyloo · · Score: 1

      Oh? And how do you expect an undergraduate biology major to understand (say) a particle's motion? Personally, saying that we should NOT teach a=F/m (which makes sense in real life, as long as you can get around the tricky 'what IS mass, really?' issue) in favor of defining a trajectory as the path over which the action of a particle's motion is extremized is crap.
      Maybe you're saying that mathematics classes need to teach integral calculus a lot earlier, so that people can do path integrals, instead of algebra-based physics? I dare you to teach Lagrangians and Hamiltonians to scores of undergraduates, whether they're engineers or art majors, and have them make as much "sense" as Newton's second and third Laws.
      One of my gripes (hey, I'm a graduate student in physics, too!) is that books meant for other majors SO misrepresent what physics IS, and even some very basic concepts. Recently, reading my girlfriend's microbiology book (which starts out explaining atomic structure and so for -- very well, actually), I came across the phrase "Carbon has such-and-such properties because of its location in the periodic table." Now, I can understand that if this were said in context of "Hey, notice THIS pattern, and THAT pattern," it might make sense. But this statement was the beginning of a MAJOR section! Carbon doesn't have those properties because of its location in the table! It was PUT in the table where it is BECAUSE of those properties.
      Yes, this is quibbling. But a lot of people believe the author's exact words, and they're words which don't even make sense if you understand the simple fact that the periodic table, neat as it is, is contrived by man to explain nature, not the other way around.

      In short, we insist on complicated terminology because to speak about things using lax terminology is NOT THE TRUTH. If you're talking about a certain thing, you want to make damned sure that other people know exactly what you're talking about. It's kind of like complaining that we shouldn't have to learn all of those names of those hue things -- they're all just colors, right?

      Books can be poor; professors can be dry and vapid. But the subject matter isn't, really, and some professors really make a good (and successful!) effort to get students involved, interested, and really learn stuff.

      Kudos to anyone who can find a better way to teach introductory physics classes. But I have a feeling that the basic paradigms serve as well now as they did 100 years ago, and will serve as well millennia into the future.

    2. Re:this is another failure of physics education by shallow+monkey · · Score: 1

      Goldsmith, you write the book/curriculum and I will send my children to you as students. And they will teach it to others when they graduate.

      Seriously, you are the only poster who a) has a good take on this and b) wants something done about it.

      So, go DO IT!!!! And may the folks sitting on your dissertation committee swallow it whole or go suck eggs!

    3. Re:this is another failure of physics education by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mass is defined to be the number you get when you put something on a scale. (after you make various corrections of course ;) )

    4. Re:this is another failure of physics education by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And just as easiliy I will take the view that you have learned everything the wrong way.

      Now I am going to teach you mechanics via symplectic geometry.

      Let's see how you like that?!

    5. Re:this is another failure of physics education by 1iar_parad0x · · Score: 1

      Why do we teach calculus first? Why do we water down the details of QM in introductory chemistry? Why don't we start out teaching logic and the method of proof? Why does the average high school teach biology, then chemistry, then physics?

      The answer is necessity. The average student isn't prepared to spend several years progressing from

      logic->algebra->analysis->mechanics->QM->physic al chemistry->...

      The average student wants the basic tools to do a job, not become the next Enrico Fermi. Sad, but true.

      --
      What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean....
    6. Re:this is another failure of physics education by tony_gardner · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm also a graduate student in physics, and I couldn't disagree with you more. Newtonian dynamics is great for the really simple problems, and these days anything more complex simply isn't going to be done analytically unless you want something specific enough that you can afford to teach yourself Hamiltonian mechanics.

      I study in Goettingen (I'm sure you know where that is.) and the mathematics department has a large hall of models of surfaces of least action, mainly done between 1900 and 1950. After the advent of computing most of the problems they were working on were done computationally.

      I would just comment further that Newtonian mechanics has the enormous advantage of working mainly in directly measurable values, making errors easier to identify. In fact if you go into engineering, there's almost no system of calculation which doesn't work in directly measureable values, and so I think it simply makes sense to teach simple physics in those terms too.

    7. Re:this is another failure of physics education by Goldsmith · · Score: 1

      You make some good points, especially about terminology, and they are a lot of the same points professors make to me when I complain to them about this, so I suppose you're in good company.

      I agree that telling students a particle follows a "path over which the action of a particle's motion is extremized" is crap. I also think it's crap to teach someone that a=f/m, now go plug in some numbers. I think students should be taught to minimize energies, and that force is not some mysterious quantity that's given at the beggining of the problem. Maybe that can be done easily without resorting to more advanced mathmatics?

      I'm probably wrong about a lot of this. There have been a few professors I've talked to who claimed to have tried teaching "real" physics to bio majors, and according to them it was too much work for everyone and not worth it. Perhaps physics is just something you really have to want to learn to learn properly. But is every bio textbook author going to get a physicist to edit their book? If we focus on the real basics and spoon feed our students, will that be enough? I think the real core of physics, how a physicist thinks, is important enough to try and teach it in other fields. I doubt anyone would really disagree with that, but the big question is what is the best way to do that, and maybe what we've got is it.

    8. Re:this is another failure of physics education by gardyloo · · Score: 1

      Actually, to be pedantic (but, again, this is getting at a question to which physicists do NOT know the answer, and so it's very interesting at many levels), GRAVITATIONAL mass http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_mass#Gr avitational_Mass is defined (roughly) as the number you get when you weigh something. INERTIAL mass http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_mass#In ertial_Mass is a lot different (at least in everyday life) because you can talk about it--even in an "intuitive" way--without ever referring to a scale or weighing the thing. The heart of General Relativity pretty much insists that these two masses are EXACTLY the same, and they seem to be, experimentally, but it's not very convincing that they HAVE to be. My understanding of their equivalence -- which is spotty at best -- is that inertial mass is evinced in a sort of "radiation reaction" effect, similar to the reaction force that one gets when one tries to accelerate, say, an electron. Feynman and Wheeler tried to explain this reaction by invoking half-advanced and half-retarded waves, where the advanced waves arrive at the object just as you try to accelerate the thing, having been emitted from possible absorbers just in time to arrive... If gravitational waves exist, they might be just the half-retarded waves in this situation, and the half-advanced ones would account for the inertial mass of any object.

      Most fascinating to me is this: Relativity says that fields containing energy (e.g., gravitational fields) act as though they have mass (E=mc^2, after all). This mass must provide some gravitational force. Thus, gravitational fields may create "their OWN" gravitational fields, etc. In fact, this self-feeding would account for the infinite gravity (beyond the event horizon) of a black hole.

      It's now time to find boobies on the 'net.

    9. Re:this is another failure of physics education by Goldsmith · · Score: 1

      It's funny, most physicists I've talked to about this disagree with me. (Although you're the first from Europe, I have a friend at Delft who just blames my obsession on the poor US education system.)

      Perhaps what we do now is the best way, I can't really say I've seen anything better. You make some really good points.

      My only counter would be that many people are not working on simple problems anymore. The ideas of Hamiltonian mechanics would be very useful to anyone doing molecular biology or organic chemistry. You need that good classical mechanics basis to get to the quantum or electrodynamics needed by everyone from a chemist to an electrical engineer. I'm not saying they need QED or anything, just that they should be able to know where an energy minimum comes from. If we can do that without resorting to advanced math, then I'm wrong, but I would be happy about it.

      If we don't teach them that, I guess that's ok too, more jobs for us when they get to the complex problems.

    10. Re:this is another failure of physics education by gardyloo · · Score: 1

      Well, I've yet to see a book or professor who says anything remotely like "a=f/m, now go plug in some numbers." (Although, to be fair, probably a lot of students might see it that way.) My own take is that this sort of thing should be taught in a somewhat historical way, but with more emphasis on the history. For example, the fact that "an object in motion tends to stay in motion, unless acted upon, etc." is intuitive to me, but maybe that's because I've been thinking about this stuff for a large part of my so-called life. Historically, people just thought that things "naturally" wanted to stop (almost the same "naturally" that we have to invoke when saying that things "naturally want to keep going). Only later was the influence of friction and so forth really recognized. Students coming into physics classes tend to think the same way, and gently coaxing them out of that way, and toward how physicists think should be, well, *convincing*, and perhaps the best way to do that is to show some natural progressions, especially focusing (on this case, at least) on Galileo's early experiments, and so forth.

      Minimizing energy is a concept which is just as vague to students as force is. Hey, at least they can *feel" forces, and imagine themselves pushing on an object. Energy is pretty tricky, because although kinetic energy is visualizable (at least in some sense -- but why is that velocity squared? and what if something is moving along with the object -- then it has no relative velocity, and so it has no kinetic energy?), potential energy is really, really difficult to wrap one's mind around, because it's not visualizable, and it's turned into kinetic energy through the action of *forces*. Ick. You also have the problem where you have to carefully define what your system is, so that energy is conserved in the whole system, and in various subsystems, as in those thermodynamics problems we all hate to love. To an undergraduate sitting there, that might seem hideously complicated. Cheers if you can get it to work, though!

      I totally agree with you that how physicists think is a Good Thing, mainly because it seems to provide facility with mathematics, and because it's so applicable to other fields, and gives a lot of flexibility when encountered with unknown problems. It may be very, very cheap of me to say this, because throwing more time at things often doesn't work, but (introductory) physics classes in universities are too short, and too rushed. There's just too much interesting stuff that physics can explain, and too little time to cram all that in to a year, let alone a semester. Students in any of the sciences should see physics as less of a "oh, crap, you're taking THAT class? Do you HAVE to?!?" thing, and more of a fact of life, for maybe two years. I haven't any idea of how to implement that, and, of course, it's been a perennial problem for a long time (see the Physics Today of, well, several years ago, which has a picture of a bunch of textbooks stacked on the cover, and which documents many of exactly the same complaints in universities 100 years ago).

      Best of luck with finding better ways to teach this stuff! We all can benefit from people thinking honestly about that question, really.

  43. Sounds like a more advanced mechanics text by Mark_in_Brazil · · Score: 2, Informative

    This sounds to me like a more advanced classical mechanics text. In my second year in college (physics major), we used Marion & Thornton's Classical Dynamics of Particles and Systems, which seems to be one of the standard texts at that level. I believe Symon's Mechanics is another book at about the same level.
    In my first year in grad school, I took a great classical mechanics course taught by a guy who uses classical mechanics in his research on planetary systems. His name is Stanton Peale. He got semi-famous by publishing a paper just before Voyager arrived near Jupiter, saying that Io might be volcanic. He would have published it a lot sooner, but he didn't notice that orbital data on the Galilean moons are, for historical reasons, recorded differently than those for other moons in the solar system. He had therefore mistakenly calculated that none of the Galileans would be volcanic. By chance (if such a thing exists :D), he was working on another problem and noticed this. He then repeated his calculations and saw that tidal stresses on Io might be strong enough to give it a liquid interior. He had trouble getting the paper published in the short time before pictures started coming back from Voyager, but managed. As he told me, anyone can write a paper explaining why a moon is volcanic after the discovery of vulcanism on the moon, but he wanted to publish the prediction before the pictures came back.
    But I digress... in Peale's class, we used the standard graduate text on Classical Mechanics, which is Goldstein's Classical Mechanics.
    Both the Goldstein book and the Marion & Thornton book cover Lagrangian and Hamiltonian mechanics. Goldstein goes into more details about things like Poisson Brackets and canonical transformations.
    The Landau & Lifshitz book Mechanics, the first volume of the "Course of Theoretical Physics," covers much of the same material, but is quite concise. For that reason, like most of the Landau/Lifshitz (and Lifshitz/Pitaevskii, after Landau died) books, it is pretty dense.
    I'm not sure if Oliver intended to bring these things to folks other than physics majors, but who other than physics majors (and maybe the occasional math major or other science/engineering major) has enough interest in the subject to wade through the math? The math isn't all that complicated (for a physics or math major), but it's complicated enough to deter anyone not really interested in the subject. Peale's classical mechanics class was not quite a weed-out course, but it was one that a significant number of people dropped in their first year and were taking for the second time when I took it. I worked really hard in that class and ended up learning a lot. And it wasn't just the math that made it tough. But the point is that this material can be taught at a level that's challenging for grad students...

    --Mark

    --
    "It is nice to know that the computer understands the problem. But I would like to understand it too." --Eugene Wigner
  44. Is this even a book? by Fizzl · · Score: 1

    Sounds more like horror story instead of review:
    College kid reads a white paper disguised as a book; learns stuff.

  45. Traveling on the Shaggy Pony by m0rphm0nkey · · Score: 1

    While I'm admittedly weak in this area, just reading this post has made me want to learn more about the two body problem. That can't be a bad thing.

  46. What's better? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    (a) reading the Shaggy Steed of Physics

    OR

    (b) sex with the Shaggy Steed of Physics

  47. Why this book is signifigant by 1iar_parad0x · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Coincidentally, I've been looking for a book on mechanics to read.

    Why you ask?

    Well, I've got a pretty good math background and I've read some (not all) of the Feynman lectures. So while the math of advanced physics doesn't scare me (okay, it scares me a little), I lack any physical intuition.

    I wasn't quite prepared to plow through a dry 500 page book on mechanics. However, I was looking for an entertaining read.

    The reason is that mechanics is the intuition of physics. Most mathematicians can run mathematical circles around their physicist counterparts. Ever ask a physicist to "prove" something? However, ask a mathematican to "calculate" anything complicated in physics and you'll usually stop them cold (with a few notable exceptions [Von Nuemann, Kolmogorov, etc]).

    Mechanics is the practice of doing physics calculations. If axioms and proofs are the tools of mathematicians, then fundamental laws and calculations are the tools of physicists. All introductory physics books (including Feynman) dance around the calculations of physics. Sure, when you've finished reading the Feynman lectures, you can pontificate on basic E&M, QM, etc. You'll be able to describe all kinds of interesting phenonmena. You just can't calcuate anything.

    I've haven't read this book, but I think I will. If it is as entertaining as the reviewer says it is, then I could imagine it might become quite the classic.

    Of course, this is just the opinion of a stupid math major....

    --
    What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean....
  48. Off-topic (sorry): Sliabh Mis by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Did anyone else notice that the Sliabh Mis mentioned in the Irish legend is the same mountain St. Patrick spent his time as a slave and swineherd?

    1. Re:Off-topic (sorry): Sliabh Mis by gnomes · · Score: 1

      Where is Isaac Asimov when you really need him?

  49. Re:wtf by smooth+wombat · · Score: 1

    Considering how many times people on /. are corrected on the proper spelling of the word "you're" and the correct form of "their", "there" and "they're", it is highly doubtful that this person will amend their ways.

    --
    We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
  50. Feynman by miller701 · · Score: 1
    Richard Feynman said something along the lines of 'if we can't explain a pyhsical process without complex math, we really don't understand it'.

    I own the first volume of his physics lectures and it doesn't use complex math.

  51. collisions vs. orbits by thechuckbenz · · Score: 1
    I'll tempt the purists to tell me to RTFB and work it out for myself, but maybe someone has a good answer to this...

    What determines whether a smaller body collides with or falls into orbit around a larger body? I guess that the relevant parameters are the starting velocity (with vector - the vector implies what the closest distance would have been without gravity), radius of the objects, and mass of the objects.

    Are all collision scenarios simply situations in which the orbit's closest approach (perigee) is less than the radius of the large object?

    1. Re:collisions vs. orbits by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Are all collison.." yes

      don't forget angular momentum.
      Energy, momentum , angular momentum, mass; all conserved. From this all else follows.

      I don't know what this means tho. : "the vector implies what the closest distance would have been without gravity"

      gravity is always there. Force of gravity is F=G * m1 *m2 / r^2

      F=ma

      everything follows. Any begining text.

  52. Dr. Gary Sherman at RHIT by booch · · Score: 1

    Geez, there's a name I haven't heard for a long time. Definitely an awesome math teacher.

    --
    Software sucks. Open Source sucks less.
    1. Re:Dr. Gary Sherman at RHIT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Generally I find that Open Source sucks a whole lot more... You may need to get out more before you start making such comparisons.

  53. The Shaggy Steed of Physics -- Inverse Square law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How do we KNOW that the exponent in the inverse square law is ineger 2 and not 2.0000000001 or 1.999999999 ?

  54. Re:"Wittgenstein for more clarity" by Tungbo · · Score: 1

    When the crystal falls into a clear stream, it will indeed sparkle. If it falls into a muddy pond, its light will dim as well.

    Kant, Wittgenstein, Hegel, and Sartre are indeed clear and transparent. "Critique of Pure Reason" also specifically addresses the distinction between mathematical truths vs. material facts.

    You should try some McLuhan or Foucault to really twist your head inside-out.