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Jetway PT800TWIN - Dual User Hardware
Steve K writes "Cost-cutting in IT. Something the beancounters are always looking at, no doubt. Jetway have attempted to provide an answer -- allow two users to utilise one machine at once. HEXUS.net have a review:
'The PT800TWIN is an odd beast. While it's admirable that Jetway have engineered it with MagicTwin support in mind, to go after the low-cost/budget/TCO crowd, you have to wonder about the implementation. It needs Windows XP, adding cost. A large proportion of applications released on Windows require you to have two licenses to run concurrently on a MagicTwin system, adding cost. While you save money on the hardware, you don't on the software.' Not really a revolutionary product, but perhaps it can be taken somewhere with a little more work."
Considering the market that they are targeting, the single largest expense is not the hardware but the software. A full version of XP Pro costs $300 and a full copy of Office 2003 costs $400. Sure, you can get volume discounts, possibly even upgrades, but considering most OEM's offer low end office PC's for the same price as a full version of 2003, you can see how the hardware isn't the biggest concern if you are aiming at the business value market. An effective API layer for Linux that supports the most common business apps could pull in more money. Also, before anyone brings it up, Crossover Office needs a bit more work and a stronger reputation before it would be considered as a common business solution.
Why not just buy a damn server and attach dumbterminals then?
All this thing is really is a scaled down version of time sharing systems that have been around since the 1950's.
Oh well, I guess the more things change the more they stay the same.
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It's like an inverted KVM switch or a thinclient for one user while the other one - the one actually seated at the machine - has real control.
This might be useful for governmental machines, like CIA or such, but I can't see it being used in schools or offices, especially if someone infects a machine with something - though it would make it a hell of a lot easier to clean half the machines.
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Um. You know, if you get a computer with two video cards, two keyboards, two mice and two monitors you can do with with X rather easily. Heck, if you don't mind the performance hit you can technically get a whole bunch of terminals hooked up to one machine like this. You're really not saving that much money though. Commodity PC hardware is so cheap these days that is just doesn't matter that much.
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This was also discussed on Slashdot a short while ago: FourHead: One PC, Four Users
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"ATTENTION STAFF: From now on all developers will share a Jetway PT800TWIIN workstation. You can both log in to the same machine, thereby saving us hardware costs. A cost savings that you can imagine will get passed back to you in higher salaries, but there you would be wrong. Think executive bonuses for coming up with this idea in the first place.
In a further cost-cutting move, both developers sharing their PT800TWIN workstation will also share the same ergonomic chair. By getting our cleaning service personnel to sretch out your chairs in the off hours, we have found that two moderately overweight programmers can now fit into the same chair. Note the 'moderately' part. From now on all snacks from the kitchen will be removed to encourage proper weight maintenance...and to save costs.
Futher, you'll be happy to hear, we are discontinuing the practice of commuting. Both developers will now share their cubicles with two other developers in a shared work/sleep arrangement. You will work 12 hours, then utilize the new company-issued hammocks with corporate logo and mini pillows to sleep for 12 hours. During those sleep twelve hours, the other two developers will squeeze into the one chair to continue work. Note that you may need to nudge them out of the hammock first, as there will only be one hammock issued for each four developers.
We know you will appreciate the cost-cutting moves that will help yield higher profits and will be a boon to the executive V.P.s who thought of this move after reading an article in Forbes that called this the next big thing in business. You can thank the V.P. personally when he comes back from his 3-month trip to Fiji paid for by the bonus he received from suggesting this approach. Please join me in thanking him. And get back to work."
Why choose to buy one very performing desktop to split his performance in half, instead of buying 2 cheap desktops? Performing hardware is always more costly than twice its underperforming counterpart...
Also, twice the applications running, twice the opportunity to crash...?
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Sharedware were doing this back in the days of Windows 95. They've since gone under and been bought out but they were also much smarter in another way - they did add in cards for generic PCs that had keyboard/mouse/video/sound on them. Unfortunately I've never been able to get anyone involved to liberate the docs to drive it in Linux
You don't have to be too old to remember departmental computers and minicomputers with timesharing that enabled 10 people, 2 of whom actually knew how to get net work done on a computer, to use one $50000 system. When did we hit bottom? This is not progress. I think these guys are re-inventing the flat tire. Wouldn't they be miles ahead to start with an OS that was multi-usr from the get-go and available with a LIceNse for Users at no eXpense?
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...to set up two X displays on a dual-headed machine, with each display being served by a different keyboard and mouse?
Give the X server access to the raw HID devices...Use udev to make sure the same keyboard and the same mouse show up as the same device node every time. (Even if you disconnect and reconnect the USB device.)
Never done it, but I think that's how it would be done.
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Wasnt their a story several months ago where someone was shiping 4way xtermainls all homed on a single pentium? I mean XP supporting only 2users seems rather weak when they have 4way X machines using extra video cards and usb kb/mouse.
And considering that in 10 years the hardware will be free this doesnt look like such a great investment.
Stateless Linux anyone?
Im dreaming ofa big bndwdth, That can resist the
Applica did this five or so years ago. I tested their U2 product back 1999-ish.
http://www.applica.com/
While you save money on the hardware, you don't on the software.
as opposed to not saving on software AND not saving on hardware? sounds like a good solution to me. besides, you're paying for a single install of winxp, not two, so that's software savings right there. and yes, sometimes windows xp is the right tool for the job and is worth paying for (like in some office environments where the workers know, want, and need windows). forcing people to use linux against their will can be just as stupid as forcing people to use windows against their will.
Most companies today still run windows for their desktops and work stations. Cutting costs by using linux instead of windows would not win them enough support to make it a viable product.
Just as the old line went, "No one got fired for choosing IBM", now days it's "No one gets fired for choosing Microsoft". Like it or not, that is just the reality of the world today.
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If you don't hear about Citrix anymore, then you don't deal with enterprise level software deployments. Citrix is HUGE in the big leagues. You'll find it everywhere in Hospital systems, and anywhere security is a high priority. It's used primarily for its VPN-like features.
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We use BeTwin here at work, and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone that actually wanted their users to do anything with the computer over and above basic web surfing and one other app...not to mention the list of programs that it doesn't work with (non listed on the site, as little testing was done, and we use some odd software (ie Pegasus Mail,XPSP2,etc...etc))
Get a linux box and a few Xterms
But then wouldn't you have to buy a copy of Crossover Office and Microsoft Office for each X terminal you attach? Many businesses rely on being able to open Microsoft Office documents that OpenOffice.org chokes on.
I'd really like to be able to do this with my G5, so my wife and I could use it at the same time. It's got the power and the ability to have multiple users simultaneously logged in - all I need is two physical consoles.
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It's cheaper for those looking for a solution on a smaller scale. Citrix is great if you have enough users to justify the cost of a separate server, and the licensing for citrix, and the software license. However, for 2 to 10 users that might be overkill.
It looks like the perfect app for that would be in an Internet cafe with 2 15" monitors, keyboards and meese. Less maintenance and you can just re-image every morning before you open the doors.
-Randy
Yeah. I mean, how could I play Half-Life on company time when the guy in the cubicle next door is sucking down my whole CPU compiling code and stuff?
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
I have been trying a few experiments on my Lan. with different systems of remote connection, realvnc, tightvnc and Remote desktop for windows Xp.
My linux pc has real multiuser capabilitys since each user gets a seperate desktop. With the majority of actual processing carried out on the superior host machine, very weak clients can be supported.
With Remotedesktop for instance I had a P166 laptop running 98 se in 48 meg of ram connected to an XP1600 pc running XP pro across a wireless lan.
The response of the 98 terminal seemed better than running applications locally with little use of the swop file. that underpowered laptop was practically reborn and almost as capable as the remote controlled XP Pc doing most of the work.
with linux a kde desktop being served (via a realvnc client) to a windows Pc ran smoothly and still allowed a local user at the linux pc but then linux is a proper muliuser environment.
The practical limitation is the bandwidth of the Lan and the power of the server Pc.
Someone said whats the point your just spliting a powerful machine in half or quarters or what ever.
thing is to run a word processor or any other number of other tasks doesn't take a huge amount of processing power a lot of the time a pc is waiting for you.
As single users we often leave tasks running in the background and hardly miss the resources on a powerful system. Sharing the CPu cycles with another user is not much worse than that.
Yes with windows program you probably do need to pay for multiuser to be legal but not so much with linux.
in a home environment do you really need to buy a top pc for everyone or run linux on 1 good one and have a few low powered boxes around the house where your family can log on and use the powerful system while dad sits on it locally reading slashdot.
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The current implementation doesn't seem to work very well, but the idea is pretty cool.
With a current workstation being much more powerful than most users really need, this isn't a bad idea.
For the office, I've built a score of AthlonXP 2500+/Nforce2 IGP machines with 512 megs of memory and all-around good, quality hardware for about $450 each. It doesn't make much sense to go for anything slower on the CPU. If I saved $30 (less than 10% of the system cost), I'd probably lose 30% of the performance. But at the same time, that's a lot more CPU than they need for IE, Excell, and Thunderbird.
It would be very cool to build similar with a gig of memory (say, $600), and let two people in the same cubicle use them. We currently have our customer-service monkies stacked two and three to a cube, so it would work out terrifically.
In fact, if it weren't for one terribly critical piece of Windows-only software, I would have long ago gone to a dual-CPU Linux machine with 8 gigs of memory, and given twenty people a dumb/thin client with which to connect to it. However, that *still* requires an extra computer on their desktop.
steve
Oh, you're not stuck, you're just unable to let go of the onion rings.
I was looking to provide two separate terminals for a very, very expensive financial data application that typically has two screens anyway- if you work in the industry you know the one I'm talking about.
:)
I read about the "MagicTwin" boxes on a hardware site, and thought it might be worth a shot to see if I could get it to work with the "per terminal" licensing features.
it was a PAIN IN THE ASS to get the whole system working properly, and it basically is just a hacked up version of RDP so it provides a terminal on a second keyboard, mouse, and monitor (the machines have a built in dual head card, or require certain add in cards).
all in all, it was usable, but nothing to write home about. it didn't work for duping the app either, as it was pretty much the same as a terminal session through RDP and I think people have tried that route before
seriously though, it's kind of cheesy and proprietary... you'd be better off buying generic hardware (a decent shuttle box, for example) and having two separate machines. the admin overhead of that little POS is really not worth the effort, IMHO.
(for reference, mine is an AMD based box, with a NForce2 IGP- I think it's the magictwin 765 or something like that.)
EOM
For a Microsoft Office doc that won't open in OpenOffice.org, try anything made in Microsoft Access, the graphical database frontend. OOo doesn't have a corresponding application.
Or try any of the vertical market applications that exist only for Microsoft Windows.
In fact, Chinese versions of Office have been very difficult for Open Office. As of 1.1 there have been many improvements, but people got burned early on and this really hurt the effort.
The Chinese language is an interesting battleground in Open Source, especially when it comes to productivity apps since a localized desktop isn't really that different from the western version once you get the key-in system set up. An office suite, on the other hand, is quite different between English and Chinese. Once you start getting into fancy fonts and positioning, it gets a bit hectic since Chinese can be written in all sorts of ways on the page and typically inculdes both Chinese and western writing and punctuation. From what I've seen, it's the shift between single byte western punctuation and double byte Chinese punctuation that can cause a lot of problems with erroneous characters and messed up formatting.
One of the interesting issues here is that the simpified Mainland Chinese tends to be further along than Traditional Chinese used in Taiwan. This is a bit of a reversal of what happened in closed source. Initially, back in the DOS and earlier days, Taiwan was far ahead of the mainland with a word processor suite called ET3 named after the company that had developed the font set and key-in system-- Eten. Eventually, their tech was bought up by Microsoft as well and was eventually included in the unicode standard.
But in Open Source things change, especially politically.
Although Taiwan has Linux User groups, it's surprising how few people are willing to consider Open Source as an option given the prevalence of tech in the society. In many cases, there is a fear that if Microsoft slips the local economy will do so as well. But since the local economy is all about hardware, this seems a bit odd. They have the most to gain. It's a very conservative society in many ways though and especially when it comes to business, so it's not that surprising. If it aint broke, don't fix it. They just aren't seeing that it is broke and they will benefit more than anybody by getting it fixed.
But yeah, there are still issues with Chinese compared to Office and this is a major battleground where a lot of the soldiers are hesitant to fight out of a false sense of allegiance.
LTSP! Allow about 300 people to run the same program with only ONE (1) license of each, and use diskless terminals. SAVE MORE, and with Open Source software. I won't say it enough! L(inux)T(erminal)S(erver)P(roject)!!!
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