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iTunes(UK) Targeted By The Office of Fair Trading
dreadz1 writes "It seems that Apple is under fire for overpricing it's iTunes music for UK customers. This story from the BBC says that here in the UK we are charged 20% more for music on iTunes than the French and the Germans. Should Apple lower its initial price so that the cost+VAT is equivalent to prices in the EuroZone or should we grow up and get used to the fact that things are priced differently in different places?"
If the music companies in the UK charge more, then Apple will charge more.
Simple economics.
After all, we have the best music, why should we pay more for all this foreign rubbish? :-)
The internet is a difficult place for pricing, I cannot see any justification for this price increase, so it should go. If however thier costs were equally higher for serving to the britpub.crowd then I would say leave it.
Seems to me they just scale thier price to economies.
Rotten blighters. What-ho-chaps.
#hostfile 0.0.0.0 primidi.com 0.0.0.0 www.primidi.com 0.0.0.0 radio.weblogs.com
The way globalization works is this: you compete with some overseas guy for a job, so in the long term, you probably still have a job, but it's at lower wages.
However, this doesn't really matter in the long term because producers are competing with each other internationally too, driving price down. In fact <waving hands>since capital is freed to seek the most efficient distribution of resources, productivity goes up on one hand, and competition drives prices for goods down even more than wages. This means that while on paper you make less money, your real buying power is increased and everybody wins.</waving hands>
But --- corporations don't want to compete on price internationally, whether it is on prescription drugs, or entertainment like music and moves. Differential pricing allows them to make greater profits. But the whole system of assumptions that resulted in everybody winning falls down if corporations are not forced to compete on price internationally along with labor.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
You should definitely just grow up.
Ron Paul 2012
The prices should be same or pretty clsoe throughtout Europe because of the common market. It makes sense that they should be pretty even. You have to wonder, if the UK had the Euro, would they charge only 0.99 or would they have upped it to 1.29 ?
Eh, that is not growing up. It's the companies that need to realize that people will buy where it is cheapest and will feel cheated if the price is higher where they happen to live.
for not replacing the pound by the Euro.
I assume that the prices in Germany and France are the same, because they have the same currency.
btw Apple hardware is much cheaper in the US than in Europe - how about complaining on this?
Earth to Britain: If you're tired of being gouged by your local vendors (as compared to the continent), adopt the euro.
People in the UK have always been gouged on everything. What sells for $1 in the US usually sells for £1 in the UK (and now 1 in most of Europe). Great for foreign companies selling into the UK market. Not so great for UK companies that have to pay inflationary wages to local employees just to survive.
I don't know why the UK puts up with this state of affairs. I wouldn't be surprised to learn those who gain under the present arrangement might manipulate of nationalist sentiment against the euro through media outlets they control.
-Isaac
I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice. For Entertainment Purposes Only.
At some point, industries are just going to have to get used to the fact that people want to buy from *everywhere*, not just the store in their own town/state/country. If someone in the UK wants to buy from the US store, they should be allowed to, at the US prices. Just like anyone in the US who wants to buy from Amazon-UK can. The downside is you only get whatever international support, if any, the distant store feels like offering.
Of course, content-owners don't like this, 'cause they like having their own little state-sanctioned monopoly on their own content and for some reason can't stomach the fact that someone in another country might want to sell the same stuff.
The way I figure it, if the original rights holders have been compensated, then any and all cross-border traffic in IP goods should be permitted. Why should I care if $$ go to Warner Brothers in the UK or in the US, as long as it goes to WB?
Solve that problem, and pricing disparities between different countries' stores will eventually disappear (or the stores will, 'cause they're not being competitive).
If you switched to the euro you wouldn't have this problem. Seems obvious enough to me and the rest of europe...
and stop whining.
There are two rules for success:
1. Never tell everything you know.
What are you talking about? Do you have the slightest idea how exchange rates work? Just because you get fewer units of a currency for a number of units of your currency doesn't mean you suddenly have less money - it just means that you get 'more bang for your buck'. VAT in the UK runs at 17.5%, and as far as I can see, it's an extremely nebulous legal area as to whether they should be charging VAT at all, as you're paying for digital media, rather than a physical item...
VAT law in the UK is ugly, some things are zero-rated for VAT (cold food, books), and some things are VAT exempt (examples, anyone?)... There was a case a few years back when people first started charging for online services such as web design, and whether they should be charging VAT on the labour, or on the finished product... Needless to say, it got messy... Anyway, not entirely sure where I'm going with this, so I'll shut up.
I hate to tell english people this but it should be 100% more. I was just there and the exchange rate is about 2 dollars = 1 pound. So a 30% charge barely covers the VAT.
You bleeding idiot.
"In the UK, iTunes charges punters 79p (120 euro cents) to download one track. In both France and Germany the cost is just 99 euro cents - about 67p."
Not 20% more numerically in different currencies, 20% more in value, in the same currencies. You really thought people couldn't account for the exchange rate? Shocking.
here is my thing... what is the VAT? If its a sales tax, other than the exchange rate being weird... I dont understand why its a problem, we have to pay taxes too so .99 never really = .99 here, its more like a dollar annd change.
But from my understanding your inflation rate is insain... A lot of my friends and even my sister complained about it last time they where there how 100 our dollars barely got you anything. So maybe I would look into why the inflation rate is so bad before I would blame a outside group.
"Slashdot, where telling the truth is overrated but lying is insightful."
I'd like to apologize for all the Americans saying stupid things in this discussion. We're sorry. We sadly can't keep our more ignorant members of our country out of these things. Please don't assume all Americans can't comprehend things like "exchange rates", and also probably couldn't find their own country on a map.
Thanks again!
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
The Pound/pence/quid or whatever its called these days will fluctuate compared to the Euro. Its conceivable that if the Pound drops in value relative to the Euro the oposite will occur (It will be cheaper in the UK).
The VAT is an English problem.
The way to prevent this is to have the UK peg the pound to the value of the Euro (China does this to the dollar). This is not easy. Maybe it Euro time.
For what its worth some tourist in europe I've heard complaining about everything in England and Switzerland costing more. It might be becuase its different currency your getting gouged on prices becuase its hard to convert/compair
Why doesn't the consumer group go after Napster and OD2, both of which operate in Britain and actually cost up to 20% more than iTunes? Is there some sort of bias in the system here? And it shouldn't be about market share, since in Britain the competition holds a bit stringer against iTunes than in the States. Where is this group coming from (from a backing standpoint), and why no mention of the others?
***
I don't know what exactlty the price difference is between UK and Germany, but for Slashdot readers to form their opinion, please take into account the following:
...
... are different between countries. The EU is for now still a free-trade zone that uses one single currency (well, the execpt UK and some other country) but it is NOT a single country. This means that you have different laws, taxes, wages, warranty requirements, ea. for different countries. So, necessarily the price that the end counsumer has to pay for a products is different. There is also a difference in shipping costs, between a country as large as Germany, and one as small as Belgium. Warranty on electronics in Germany is 2 years (by law). In Belgium it is 1 year. Translations of manuals for 100 million German speaking people or 10 million French/Dutch speaking also make products in Belgium more expensive. Etc.
- VAT rates are different for different countries in the Euro-zone. I think it is crap as well, but it is a fact of life. Most of the time you have two or three VAT rates on goods. 0% VAT, a basic rate and a high rate. The zero and basic rate are generally applicable to goods that are considered to be "basic necessities", e.g. food. The high rate is for "luxury items", e.g. electronics, perfume, services,
E.g. the VAT rate of books in Belgium is 6%, in the UK it is 0%. The VAT rate on a computer in Belgium is 21% and in Germany 16%. This causes serious price differences. Some companies decide to absorb the VAT differences and hence charge less excluding VAT in one country than the other, to avoid price differences. Others do not.
I live in Belgium, and it sucks to be in a country where everything execpt food is charged 21% extra... Well, social security is good though...
Local legislation, wages, taxes,
All these factors also causes end user prices to differ between countries.
I don't think that is fair at all, but it is the way it is... We can only strive for more European harmonisation... I for one, would like to have one single (read 'lower') VAT rate, tax rate, etc... but others (like the UK) are more protectionistic, and don't want the EU to take to much power....
The last time I checked the price excluding VAT of Apple harware in the Netherlands is higher than in Belgium, so I suspect Apple tries to harmonise the prices between the Netherlands and Belgium
Exchange rates fluctuate Exchange rates could be the reason for prices differences between the UK and the EU mainland. If the UK wants to avoid that: join the Euro! But, this also means companies like Apple have to hedge against exchange rate differences. (For information on hedging, see google.) Basically you make a contract to buy x amount of EUR in the future at a given exchange rate now. This COULD be safer for a company if it anticipates changing exchange rates correctly, but carries costs as well. These are also factored into the product end price.
And, as I said before, do not underestimate the wage effect...
By the way,
Inter-company trade does not have to pay VAT. VAT is a tax paid by endconsumers (private persons), companies that trade with each other pay VAT on goods they buy, but can redeem this from the tax authority. Companies charge the private persons VAT, and pay it to the government. It is a difficult system, search on google if you want to know more.
But the 20% doesn't cover the VAT, so the real, pre tax price, is .92 euro (61p). This is a direct result of global prices, local taxs, if anything they are under charging for iTunes compared to the cost in europe.
Realities just a bunch of bits.
If your prices are too high from taxes, might I suggest throwing boxes of tea into the Thames?
But Vat is paid by customers in France and Germany too, at differing rates from the UK's 17.5% but not that much difference.
Also there are EU competition laws about charging different amounts for the same product in different EU states if the product is sold from the same location.
If you don't adopt the Euro like all the other countries in the EU, then what do you expect? Simply the extra overhead caused by having to convert to your defunct currency would probably account for the odd 20 cent on each song.
So, let's say for the moment that Apple acquiesces and drops the iTunes per-song rate so that it's the same as in France and Germany. Can Apple then get a guarantee from the UK government that the cost of doing business in the UK will be the same as that in France and Germany?
And why look at just France and Germany, btw? Given that 1 euro is currently worth slightly more than 1 US dollar, you can make a solid case that European customers still pay more than Americans. Will the UK Office of Fair Trade again take Apple to task for charging a higher price in the UK than it does in some other country?
If I were Apple, I'd take that deal and then insist that workers in the UK charge more per hour than workers in Indonesia, and landlords charge more per square foot than do landlords in Siberia, and ask them to make sure that I got the same deal in the UK that I can get elsewhere.
Who knows? This could be an end to any problems the UK might currently have with outsourcing. They could call it the "Bring the Third World Home" intiative.
Also there are EU competition laws about charging different amounts for the same product in different EU states if the product is sold from the same location.
It's not really against EU competition law to charge different amounts in different countries, but what is illegal is restricting residents from one EU state purchasing goods or services in another.
Apple may get a lot of negative publicity from charging more in the UK than in France/Germany, but that's all that will happen. What could really get Apple in the legal shit is blocking UK residents from using the German/French iTMS
the OFT will begin charging 7% VAT on all imported heroin next week.
There's a half-decent guide to VAT over at Channel4 Money. Page 4 shows some of the interesting stuff that's VAT exempt - which is just different wording for zero-rated, apparently. And as you say, yes, the law is ugly! For instance: funerals are VAT-exempt, but headstones aren't; frozen food's exempt, but frozen food *that you eat frozen*, such as ice cream, isn't; it's so silly you'd think they were making half of it up! And don't even start on the Jaffa cake thing ;)
Please stop going on about differences in VAT between European countries - Apple iTunes is based in Luxembourg, and charges the same VAT across Europe.
Also, iTunes has not been targeted by the Office of Fair Trading. The OFT has been asked to look at it by the CA (the Consumers' Association, publisher of Which magazine.)
They overcharged us for tea, now we're overcharging them for Ice-T
Why is iTMS being singled out? The whole thing reeks badly. Conspiracy theorist in me thinks that there are companies behind this call for probe.
Consider these 3 paragraphs from a Reuter article
- Targeting iTunes is an odd choice. In Britain, Apple's music service is cheaper -- in some cases more than 20 percent cheaper -- than rivals Napster and most of the online retailers that resell the catalog of music download firm OD2.
- Graham Vidler, head of policy for the Consumers' Association, said he was not aware of a single complaint from a British consumer about Apple's pricing scheme. "What we are saying is we believe iTunes could be made cheaper," he added.
- The Consumers' Association said it had no plans to investigate the pricier download services.
Basically, they summarized that consumers did not feel ripped off by iTMS and yet TCA called iTMS a rip-off. There are other music services with much pricier songs, but they are not rip-offs; iTMS is. Instead of praising iTMS lower price, they called for a probe with words such as "rip-off" while ignoring the pricier download services.
TCA totally ignores that Apple licensed the songs from the labels which is different from a country to another. Price difference may be the result of the British labels' greed and judging from other services, that is the case. Tell me I am paranoid, but I bet if you look carefully who's behind the complaint, you'll find Microsoft or Napster or the likes of them.
Bandwith is not the only thing you pay, you know. When you set up a music download store, you license the music from the labels. That is the biggest chunk of money you pay (in the US, it's 65cents a song vs 34cents for other expenses and profit). If the British labels license songs at higher price than the rest of Europe, Apple can hardly be blamed for the price difference. What company thinks it's a good idea selling products at a loss indefinitely? To cover expenses, you have to increase the price.
Blame the complex laws in European recording industries.
As a Brit and thus, out of obligation/duty/whatever and due to inclement weather, a bitter cynic, I can only laugh derisively at this news and observe that this is the way it always was, is and forever will be.
:s
Some here have failed to grasp VAT - I can only assume that these people are communists, unfamiliar with taxation systems and the exchange of money for goods. (And, as an aside, should the HUAC get wind of this - you know, harbouring socialists and what have you - CowboyNeal can expect the FBI on his ass. Metaphorically speaking, of course.)
Others note a strong pound juxtaposed against a weak Euro or dollar, placing their faith in the fluctuation of international currency to balance the situation. I await with some glee the comedown of the pound - in the dollar's case, this necessitates a change of president, I believe, and, alas, in the Euro's case, nothing short of a blue moon.
The thing is, the UK is fundamentally different from the rest of Europe, a state of affairs brought about more by geography than anything else (the Japanese are similarly afflicted). It will not change. To cite two factors - VAT is lower than the French rate of 19.5% or the Italian one of 20% (if memory serves - corrections welcome) and employment legislation is more company-friendly (contrast our 48 hour working week with France's 35 and note that the Netherlands' figure is similar) - and yet British prices still manage to consistently exceed their continental equivalents - cars have always been a stellar example.
None of this matters though. Britain is, perhaps by statute, more expensive than pretty much anywhere else - this cynic includes Japan in that sweeping generalisation having had ample opportunity for comparison. In fact, it is surprising that this has got as far as the OFT - normally the Beeb is only able to whet the skeptic's appetite for feeling hard-done-by with stories of complaints by consumers' rights organisations.
Nothing will change.
iqu
(If you like my cynical tone, feel free to read my sometimes-updated blog.)
What if a work is public domain in one country but copyrighted in another? I can see where this would be a problem in relation to 20th century classical music, where the cutoffs for the perpetual copyright regime differ country by country.
We'll need some way to heat the Thames first. Global Warming isn't going quite fast enough. It's brass monkeys in there - and non too clean neither, after they dumped 1/2 million tons of raw sewage in the floods last month..
This is my Sig, this is my Gun. One is for Slashdot and one is for Fun.
Price is unrelated to production cost. It's determined by what people are willing to pay. If people pay more than what it cost you, you make a profit. If they pay less, you go bankrupt. Apple sees English customers as more willing to pay than French ones. If they're wrong, their music doesn't sell. The market price is the price. Any more or less, and profit isn't maximized, and the company is being poorly managed.
I'm not entirely up on the trade laws in the EU, but wouldn't it be possible for UK customers to buy from the German store and duck the extra VAT taxes? I thought the EU was supposed to be one big free-trade zone.
It's good to use your head, but not as a battering ram.
So now we've got WIPO and DMCA (and associated anti-consumer isues), but we're still bound by 18th century notions of nationally-defined copyright controls? How crazy is that?
The Bono Act was supposed to be a step toward solving that for the majority of works, but it takes a few years for the rules of expiration to take effect, especially given that copyright term extensions usually don't remove works from the present public domain.
I can't believe what I'm reading here. Some important facts haven't come up in the discussion thus far:
To sell things in the E.U. there are certain rules you have to obey. As it stands, Apple are clearly not obeying those rules, and so they will lose any legal action which arises. The problem is not that the tracks in the U.K. store are too expensive, but that Apple are actively preventing U.K. consumers from buying tracks from the French store or the German store.
A company providing goods or services in one E.U. country is not allowed to prevent purchases from people in another E.U. country. This principle of the Common Market exists in E.U. law, and this applies to all those countries which are members of the EU including those which, like the U.K., have not adopted the Euro currency.
To obey the law, Apple must allow people in the U.K. with a U.K. credit card to purchase songs from the French or German stores (or people in France, should they wish to, to buy from the U.K. store, for example).
They do not need to allow anyone in the E.U. to buy from the U.S.A. store. Any price comparison between Europe and the U.S.A. is bogus as far as this discussion is concerned. It is not at issue here because the E.U. rules do not apply to the U.S.A. sales operation.
Apple are being targeted because they have stores selling to the U.K., France and Germany, where the E.U. internal free trade rules apply.
(My guess is that the record companies are charging more for the rights to distribute the music in the U.K. than elsewhere. This may also be illegal under the same rules. However, I don't suppose Apple want to take the music companies to court, lest they in turn revoke Apple's right to distribute anything... 'tis a sticky situation, and no mistake.)
should we grow up and get used to the fact that things are priced differently in different places?
I can walk into a store here in Canada and get Simpsons Season 4 for $45 CAD. Or I can take a day trip down to Seattle, and find Simpsons Season 4 for $45 USD. I noticed the same pattern with pretty much all other CDs and DVDs I saw in the US store. The numbers on the price tag in the US are about the same as they'd be back up in Canada - except with the differing dollars, that makes it considerably cheaper in Canada!
So if Apple's in trouble for selling iTMS songs for 20% more in the UK, should American CD and DVD retailers get in trouble for selling their products for 20-30% more than they're sold for in Canada?
Duct tape is like the Force. It has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the universe together.
overpricing it's iTunes
overpricing it is iTunes - what does that mean?
Hello, Boston Tea Party? Where did you get your education, some crappy American school? :)
As a currency attached to failing socialist policies, the Euro represents inflation, declining value, and ultimately poverty. As a Brit I would rather adopt the US dollar than the Euro, but at least the pound Sterling allows the Bank of England some control over fiscal policy. That control has recently enabled us to outperform the Euro. That's why UK goods and real estate have a high price to foreigners. If you want really cheap holidays, don't come here, go to Moldova. Prosperity always looks expensive from the outside.
- some things are VAT exempt (examples, anyone?)
Children's clothes, diesel for farmers (the dyed pink kind).Nothing unusual in corporations trying to twist the market. No, what's striking in recent years is the weird, voluntary surrender of market fundamentalists to the corporation. We joke about fanboys--always eager to see the glory of their brand in its every fart or blunder. But we may have to worry more about this species. Sacrificing your own economic interest for someone else's profit is your own foolish affair; when you wish to foist the same upon society, though, you've become a virus.
Since the 19th century, consumers in capitalist societies have understood that the game is fixed, and tends toward abusive extremes the further it travels from sane regulation. Movements against trusts, price-fixing, tying, and other arrangements curbed (during episodes of vigilance) mafia-like behavior. It's a pity to see today's stooge eager to travel backwards.
-fred
Sign #11 of Slashdot overdose: You see the phrase 'moderate Republican' and you wonder if that would be a +1 or a -1.
The revenge is that we're giving them Ice-T at all.
-fred
Sign #11 of Slashdot overdose: You see the phrase 'moderate Republican' and you wonder if that would be a +1 or a -1.
From what i've seen, (without all the politics) its a whole 12p thats the issue ...12p ...thats like nothing ...you wouldnt even bother to pick it up if you saw it in the gutter. (well i hope not)
i'm sure i'll people say by the time you get an album it adds up, but seriosuly
Instead of moaning about the 12p, spend that time working and theres no problem.
I can't believe theres an issue here about 12...p
farmers (the dyed pink kind)
I'm sorry. I'm not up on British slang. Are you saying that gay farmers get free diesel?
the violation would be committed even if they did charge the same price, because the relevant law requires that (for example) a Brit be allowed to buy a song from the French store that might not be available on the UK store. So there's a good argument here that the split-country copyright agreements are themselves what is illegal here (which would likely shut down all legal downloading in the EU until things can be fixt).
We're waiting for Gordon's 'five tests' and Tony's political nous to coincide at a point where the British public are likely to vote in favour of the Euro.
The only national (or should that be 'kingdom-wide'?) referendum we've *ever* had in the UK was to stay in the the Common Market (as it called was then) in 1975,