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System Shock 2 Retrospect...and Possible Followup?
Starsmore writes: "Gamespot has a retrospective on the 1999 cult classic System Shock 2, which normally isn't that big of a deal on it's own, although it's a nice read for those interested in some of the stories behind the production of System Shock 2. The biggest draw is that tucked at the end of the article (and shown below for those that don't want to RTFA), is this: 'But why even look back at System Shock 2 at this point? Because Irrational has been, and it plans to make a related announcement this Friday (tomorrow). The studio has decided that it wishes to further what it started in System Shock 2--to work on games that promote "emergent" gameplay--open-ended exploration that offers many choices and combinations of options to players. You'll see what we mean tomorrow. Be sure to come back then.' " Could this possibly mean a sequel to the System Shock franchise? Update: 10/09 22:30 EDT by C : As many of you suspected, Irrational is in the process of developing BioShock , a "spiritual successor" to the System Shock games. Here's hoping they can distill much of what made games like System Shock and Thief so successful, yet succeed at their aim of building a game with truly emergent gameplay.
Could this possibly mean a sequel to the System Shock franchise?
Wait until tomorrow and you will find out.
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to work on games that promote "emergent" gameplay--open-ended exploration that offers many choices and combinations of options to players
There's a few out there if you look hard enough (Morrowind, for example), but most single player games just aren't very deep these days. Of course, to make a really open-ended game requires a LOT more testing, driving up the budget and especially the time to develop the game - and modern games already take a long time to develop. Most developers feel the extra effort isn't worth it in most cases, unfortunately.
Is that like reading Slashdot for the trolls?
Hey, I didn't put that stuff in on my original submission, don't blame me. :P
"If Common Sense was so common, it wouldn't be such a valued trait."
The original System Shock is a classic - I absolutely loved that game. SS2 was even better, however its much more creepy to play if you turn off the in-game music and just have the sounds of the things moving around.
If they announce a sequel I'll be a happy man indeed.
System Shock 2 was one of the last games that really scared the hell out of me. Clive Barkers: Undying did a pretty good job of that too.
If only Clive and the System Shock crew could get together, I'd be afraid to turn lights off for the rest of my life.
as long as it's _really_ open ended. That is, I can do what I want and live with the consequences. I can play the game however I see fit. Morrorwind did a great job of this, but it left it open to easy exploitation once you learned the system, and the game got really easy. This was fine, because there was so much to see and do I didn't care that the challenge was gone. What I hate is seeing the 'seams' in games. You know, the places where the game developer's limited what you could do because it would fsck up the pacing of the game or let you finish it too quik or they're just full of themselves and want you to do things their way (**cough** Half-Life **cough).
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I recall there being a bunch of hullaballo with EA being pricks about that license. If Irrational hasnt accuired the license then we may be looking at a spiritual successor to System Shock 2.
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System Shock, along with the Thief series and the first Deus Ex, is pretty much one of my favorite games ever. There was just something amazing about the atmosphere, but even more, slowly piecing the plot together from the emails of now dead crewmembers was just amazing. There's a reason Doom III pretty much lifted it intact; it worked great in SS2.
That game truly kicked ass. I've gotta say that the only games that managed to scare me have been the original Doom and System Shock 2. Everything worked so well together in SS2, I couldn't stop playing it, and when I finished, I played it again as another character. It is so good that I'm getting the itch to install it and replay it one more time. I've a former roommate that played it for a few hours (I purposely turned off the lights in the whole apartment and pumped up the 3D sound) and he kept shitting in his pants until he got up and refused to play any more of it, and that night he kept looking over his shoulder. I just died laughing. Good memories. I wish the do a SS3, I would be first in line to buy it!
If they decide to XBox it to the extreme like Deus Ex: Invisible War, count me out. Please let it be quality.
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
I played the hell out of System Shock 1 and 2, and loved them both. The monster respawning did WONDERS for the atmosphere. Even when backtracking through finished areas the games were really tense. And don't even get me started on the groves. If they choose to do this, sweet. If not, then maybe someone will have the balls to make a DOOM 3 mod. It seems like the perfect engine for it. =)
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The Many sings to us. Where is the love in your cold world of machines?
Quit your job. Join the many. Embrace the world of flesh.
...Ok, that was either an ad for porn or a sign that my job is in danger. Fucked either way.
Is still Deus Ex (The original, the sequel blows )
Emergent gameplay: Check
Open Ended Exploration: Check
Many combinations of options: Check
Good plot (Espescially considering current world trends): Check
All it needs now is a graphics/ai overhaul and it will be perfect (Someone want to start a doom3 total conversion?)
"The United States has no right, no desire, and no intention to impose our form of government on anyone else." - Bush 05
Could this possibly mean a sequel to the System Shock franchise?
Could this possibly be another example of Slashdot's new habit of trolling for comments by adding rethorical questions?
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Because of this incident (Coumbine), Irrational was asked to bring a demonstration version of System Shock 2 to E3 that had no guns in it.
:-)
Well actually that doesn't sound very hard to me, given how much time I spent with a crowbar in that game and about two bullets left...
I did love it though, and hope they are working out a sequel!
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
"We've got nothing. Suckered you along there for a while, didn't we!"
I'm waiting for a company to try and do something like that.
"Emergent" and "open-ended" gameplay? I'm really curious as to where you people are getting these ideas. The number of games that I know of that pull either of these qualities is small, mostly including Fallout, Morrowind, Deus Ex, and the SimCity games.
Emergent gameplay is defined as when rather than actions being scripted, the level of interaction with the environment is sufficient to allow the player options. Rather than "grab key, use on door", the player can also pick the lock, find a bomb, or find an alternate route around the door (DX, LaGaurdia Airport, using the metal crates to climb up to the window of the building leading to the hanger). These sorts of games require multiple parallel systems that usually aren't too complex, but annoying to get synced up. The "alternate route" option requires more complex level geometry, etc. If you're dealing with a globally emergent system, rather than a local one, you suddenly need to be able to track all the details going on, such as how many churches you have, and where there's more high res space.
Open ended gameplay is a lot easier, but frequently less useful. Why have a game if all you do is run back and forth killing stuff (FF* ignoring the full motion story, BBS door games where nobody else joins in, Diablo 2) and your level increases ad nauseum? Players only navel gaze so long, even though the EverCrack and Diablo 2 addicts are threatening to prove me wrong.
Morrowind is an example of a game with both emergence and open-ended gameplay gone horribly wrong, as others have mentioned. You can run around all you want, but you can seriously break the storyline if you wander too far, collect items within the Fence, or exterminate entire towns. It's also far too easy to wander off, get lost, and even get bored of the game. The alchemy system is a nice example of emergence, but is so broken to be insane. The enchanting and spellmaking systems, while fun, aren't all that balanced and even your strongest custom spells will look like wet firecrackers against God's Fire. Because of the massive cost of constant effects, you'll also never really keep your enchanted items after the first half of the game because they just can't cut it. The apalling weakness of scrolls is also degrading.
Deus Ex is an example of emergent gameplay and level design coming together to make a wonderful experience. Take Hell's Kitchen, the first time around, where you have at least 30 distinct ways to learn about the warehouse, approach and enter, destroy the generator, and exit to the helicopter. Your 'ware choices seriously affect how you play your character (even if skills make less difference, since there are fewer "real" choices), along with what sort of toys you drag along. The lack of scripting in many places actually improves the game, making it possible to walk out of many areas without ever engaging the enemy.
(flamebait) As for open-ended gameplay done right, we'll have to look at Tetris.
(/flamebait)
If not Tetris, then Fallout 2. You can plot your course almost however you choose - doing a line drive to San Fran to snag the power armor early, go through The Den and either become a slaver or get a five-fingered discount on equipment, become a boxer, wander around the wastes... the game is as open as you want it to be and lets you go whereever you want. The variations are too many to outline, but anyone that's treked past Klamath, through New Redding, and visited NCR knows just how loosely your path is written.
System Shock 2 had very little in these departments. The ability to hack or psi your way towards better gear was nice, but optional, and not terribly emergent -- it granted options, not other ways around. The "open ended" nature more meant farming monsters with a wrench (or energy weapon if the weapon degradation was low enough) -- no new ways around or reasons to hang around. Extra level space does not open endedness or emergence make.
As much as I respect Shock 2, I really feel that Shock 1 was superior for the gameplay, even if I am biased to the Skorpion. Both games have an awesome atmosphere, and were very well crafted. But the limits they pushed were with the story and the technology, not the gameplay.
Well this makes me damn happy. In a list of my favourite games, System Shock 2 is one of them.
s r_ info.htm
I was overjoyed when Thief 3 came out, especially after, quite sadly, Looking Glass closed their doors.
For those of you who have never played either the incredible Thief Series, or System Shock, you are in for a treat. Be aware that the graphics are sub-par, but the audio! Eric Brossius is FRIGHTENING. He is responsible for the audio in Both the Thief Series, and System Shock 2. They damn well better have him on board.
By the way, if you want better system shock 2 graphics, check into Rebirth:
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/etienne.aubert/sshock/s
Its a mod that makes for better graphics.
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There is one thing that must stay consistent. Terry Brosius' phenomenal charactarization of SHODAN. To this day, that granulized, broken and haunted voice still gives me chills and makes HAL 9000 look like a Teddy Ruxpin.
I have chomping at the bit for a SS3 for many moons now.
I did these things and scared the hell out of myself when I actually came across the first hybrids/cyborgs. If you aren't scared in the slightest by these games, you aren't playing them correctly.
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/etienne.aubert/sshock/ssho ck_rebirth.htm is a nice little project that aims to update the aging graphics with better textures.
Unfortunately, it has kind of died (latest update in 2003...), but the downloadable Beta 1 works fine.
For those interested in seeing what all the fuss is about, System Shock 2 is available for download at an abandonware site located at this adress: http://www.the-underdogs.org/ Just scroll through the list of games till you get to the end of the 'S' section and follow the instructions to download the 148mb installer.
I still remember the cooperative multiplayer, crawling through that damned ship while on a phone line with a friend of mine. That was hands down the best cooperative-horror game experience I've ever had. Both players could specialize--I hacked, he fought--and the entire experience was so *immersive*. We still talk about one moment when, hacking a crate, he had the bright idea to come up behind me, groan "I'm... sorry...." into the mic, and club me from behind. I knocked half the stuff off my desk trying to turn around so quickly. Screw Doom 3. I miss System Shock 2.
Some cool SHODAN's quotes to give you the chills and flashbacks:
"Step right into my trap, little hacker!"
"Look at you hacker. A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting and sweating as you run through my corridors. How can you challenge a perfect immortal machine?"
"Welcome, to my DEATH MACHINE, interloper!!"
The rest of cool quotes can be found here: http://www.ttlg.com/ss1/archive/voice.htm
http://www.sshock2.com/ is still an awesome Web site. Don't forget its forum.
I never did get to play co-operative play with SS2. I heard it is pretty cool. Did anyone play it?
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ok this'll probably get me flamed but i'd play a remake of SS2 with a better engine. the game was wonderful but i could never get the mouse movement smooth and responsive like it is in ID FPS games (Quake etc., or Unreal) for example. Was i doing something wrong or did anyone else find the engine had problems (movement wise, it had problems in other areas like collision detection and dodgy animation IIRC but those aren't as important to the experience).
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You could say the same thing about reading Moby Dick, seeing a production of Hamlet, or watching Friends instead of going out and interacting with real friends. We humans often find imitations of reality to be far more interesting than the real thing. Sometimes fiction is a lot more educational and emotionally satisfying than real life. The best books have characters who you care for just like a friend, and the best games have experiences that you can remember fondly even though they weren't real.
Not really a game that scared me, per se, but the original Thief made me more tense and paranoid than any other game I've ever played. Of course, you HAD to play it with the lights out to really experience it the way it was meant to be. But all the elements came together in that game so well. And unlike many other "stealth" games that have popped up since then, Thief was one of the few where you weren't enormously powerful. So you COULDN'T simply force combat whenever you wanted to, because your opponents were mostly tougher and/or would alert lots of other opponents to your presence. You HAD to be stealthy most of the time. Hell, if you played it on the most difficult skill level, you weren't allowed to kill anyone at all!
To be honest, I'm surprised how many people consider Doom 3 such a "scary" game. Don't get me wrong, I like Doom 3, and certainly there are some startling moments; but too many of these are caused by something jumping at you from out of nowhere. It seems too forced at times, and you come to expect it. When I played Thief I was always on edge, trying to get into the darkness, listening for footsteps, waiting for just the right moment to sneak up behind someone... what fun that game was the first time through.
You can play SS2 on 2000/XP. The main thing is to run "setup -lgntforce"
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http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=699
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