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American Passports to Have RFID Chips

pr1000 writes "Wired is reporting that the State Department is planned on adding RFID chips to new American passports, starting with diplomat's passports in January. Those worried about the privacy concerns of RFID should take notice, as this rollout could set a precedent."

113 of 668 comments (clear)

  1. Bruce Schneier by Ann+Elk · · Score: 5, Informative

    Bruce Schneier has made some interesting observations on the RFID passport plans. Somehow, I do not see how this could possibly make us "safer".

    1. Re:Bruce Schneier by stoney27 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      He had some great points about why the Bush Government would want this.

      My first question is there a way I could make/buy a shield that mask the RFID signal? I can see a case like I have my palm in that would shield my passport until I gave it to the Custom Agent.

      I wonder it my new passport will have this I just sent in my renewal paperwork...

      -S

      --

      It is said that a child learns wisdom from the parent,
      but the truly wise parent learns joy from the child
    2. Re:Bruce Schneier by jellomizer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Ok you wait in line to have your passport checked. I will happily go threw the reader with my passport safely on my person. With a little green light that says it is OK for me to enter the US or even other countries.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    3. Re:Bruce Schneier by stoney27 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Ok you wait in line to have your passport checked. I will happily go threw the reader with my passport safely on my person. With a little green light that says it is OK for me to enter the US or even other countries.


      Of course nothing stopping me from walking up to the reader and opening my shielded case and walking through.

      But while you walk around with a non shield RFID the CIA will know exactly who you are and able to add notes to your passport with out your knowledge.
      -S

      --

      It is said that a child learns wisdom from the parent,
      but the truly wise parent learns joy from the child
  2. As a precedent to? by joelethan · · Score: 4, Funny
    October 2005: The State Department announced it was going to add RFID chips to all new Americans.

    And you thought it was just a Vitamin K shot.

    /joelethan

    1. Re:As a precedent to? by BottleCup · · Score: 2, Funny

      All your babies are belong to us.

  3. Tracking... by spagetti_code · · Score: 5, Interesting
    I'm a frequent US visitor who has been fingerprinted and photographed. It didn't feel good, but its not like we have a choice.

    This new step is another step towards control - remember, that is what this is all about. Bad guys get around the system - the 9/11 guys were all bona-fide visitors. Good guys, which is everyone else, gets tracked and watched.

    I'm glad I'm outside the country 8+ months of the year.

    1. Re:Tracking... by seringen · · Score: 2, Informative

      Hate to break it to you, but America is still catching up to Europe when it comes to being spied upon regularily. Just because one can travel freely among European countries doesn't mean you aren't being tracked coming in and out as a non-member. Not to mention the omnipresent video security and tapping abilities of Europe. Just because the US went from pretty much nothing to something doesn't mean the europeans have anything to goad over us.

    2. Re:Tracking... by Simon+Lyngshede · · Score: 4, Informative

      Omnipresent video security? In shops? Or have you been to England? Agreed, the UK have taken video security to the extreme. There are however still nations where the individuals still has rights. Im not always to happy about being Danish, but at least we (still) have some privacy. Tapping phones, forget it, the police really have to have a good case to be allowed to tap you phone. Video cameras? There must be a clear sign saying that you're being taped. Cameras may not be pointed at public spaces.

      When talking about protecting the individuals privacy, the US has a long way to go, and you're moving in the wrong direction, but so Europe. Sure I have a CPR number (Central Person Register) which identify me, but who cares, it doesn't mean that the government can track my every move.

      I personally think that there is a greater chance of the US government and not the Danish government i spying on me.

    3. Re:Tracking... by c0p0n · · Score: 5, Interesting
      Just because the US went from pretty much nothing to something doesn't mean the europeans have anything to goad over us.

      Are you saying that the parent post of yours is doing some xenophobe afirmations?

      The point is that if you go to US and you're not from the US (I do not say american... cubans are americans too) you have a serious risk of being humiliated by US frontier guards, being the risk proportional to:
      1. Size of your moustach
      2. Darkness of your skin
      My brother went to US last year. He has no moustach, but a aggressively black hair and he has a dark skin. He was locked by the airport guards for 3 hours. They even assured that he was on a black list (!!!) only to scare him to see his reaction.

      Well, if that is what you call freedom ... FIGHT AGAINST THAT, BY GOD'S SAKE!!!. There will not be another opportunity.
      --

      Your head a splode
    4. Re:Tracking... by bogado · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I actually aways wanted to visit the united states, but after the bush goverment I actually am afraid, not of terrorist but of the goverment. I am also not very confortable to visit and take my hard earned money ($1.00 = R$3.00) to a country that will treat me like a criminal from the day I arrive.

      I am sorry, I do not plan to visit the US anymore. I am sure there is plenty to see and many cool things there. But I do not have anything against American people, and I will sure welcome they here in my home city, Rio de Janeiro. :-)

      --
      []'s Victor Bogado da Silva Lins

      ^[:wq

    5. Re:Tracking... by isorox · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I dont mind the Yanks fingerprinting us. I just think that we should return the favour. Arrive by plane (to the UK), three queues:EU citizens (10-20 minute queue, quick glance), World Citizens (few more questions), Americans (5 hour interrogation, lock you up as a potential terrorist if you have a cowboy hat on overnight and send you back)

      Do as to others etc. Not that Blair would ever upset Bush though, I wonder what will happen if Kerry gets in...

    6. Re:Tracking... by PaulGrimshaw · · Score: 3, Informative

      Although in england we have CCTV everywhere (including my shop), we also have the right to ask the shop to supply us with a copy of any footage of us. Its all under the data protection act. Paul.

    7. Re:Tracking... by phoenix321 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Just because Hitler caused more than 40 million deaths in the end, we should NEVER feel safe from harm from anyone.

      The German people living in the year 1934 did know he was a dictator, but they never suspected him to be a mass murderer of epic proportions. In hindsight, we can laugh or tremble at their foolish beliefs, see through the Nazis lousy ideological concealment and pat ourselves on the back how we would have foreseen the Holocaust and the rest of this dark chapter of history.

      Today, we are very similar to solitary aircrash survivors: we perceive every threat as only a minor nuisance compared to what is behind us. That's foolish and delusional, I think, because we will overlook growing dictatorships and expanding fascism in the way.

      Because some politician has not yet totally subverted the goverment and has not started a new Holocaust doesn't mean he cannot compare to Hitler.

      Don't mix a fully informed hindsight after an extremely dangerous period in history with our limited insight about a current government that may be an emerging new dictatorship. Do not mix what you know Hitler did with what some current administration may be doing hidden somewhere now or may do in the future.

      Comparing the attitudes of Hitler and Bush will give some insights, I'm sure. And there's a lot less differences than I'd wish there were. Government by force, invading countries with forged evidence, fabricating its own bogeymen, subverting the election processes, putting millions in jails, opening secret jails in other countries, torturing inmates, restricting the rights of his own countrymen, using fear and scare tactics for population control while still singing a fake song of freedom and wrapping everything together in a nice patriotic package. If that is not at least a small bit comparable to a mindset of a typical Hitler, I don't know what it is.

      Godwin's Law prohibits these discussions. But Hitler is not that abomination in history you think he is. People in his time did not recognize his unspeakable crimes until it was far too late. Nothing can reach Hitlers crimes for a long time, but God forbid we feel safe just because of this. If the ovens are ever to start operating againg anywhere, it certainly is too late to complain.

    8. Re:Tracking... by arivanov · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Russians tried it. They have it as a law. Any visa or entrance measure is strictly bi-lateral. If a country enforces additional checks on Russian citizens, the Russian government has no other choice, but to implement the same checks reciprocally within 1 year. So watch for Russians taking american fingerprints till the end of the year. That will be fun. Almost as fun as around the end of the Clinton administration when the americans introduced an additional 100$ processing fee for Russians. Russians immediately replied. Americans retalliated by raising it to 300$. Russians replied. IIRC Americans raised it to 500$ for a few weeks before waiving it completely. I had to travel to the US (visa payed by my american employer) at the time. The dept director was close to "having kittens" after getting the demand for 300$. I think it reached as far as the company writing a letter to some congresscritters and the State Department to get a grip on reality and stop the pissing match.

      --
      Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
      http://www.sigsegv.cx/
    9. Re:Tracking... by syrinx · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Maybe it'll be more of the same with another President, but somehow, I doubt it.

      You seriously think things will change with a different president?

      I wish I was as naive as you. Ignorance is bliss, after all.

      --
      Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
    10. Re:Tracking... by BreadMan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      >> I actually aways wanted to visit the united states
      By all means, stop over!

      If you're comming to the US for a visit, I can recommend NYC or Boston (expensive!), Chicago, D.C., but there's some other places that I'd guess you'd like too:

      - Portland, ME
      - Asheville, NC
      - Billings, MN
      - Boulder, CO
      - Philadelphia, PA

      If you visit a big city, stay our of town, within walking distance to a rail link. The hotel room will be 1/2 - 2/3 less than staying downtown. For smaller cities, you'll need to rent a car.

      >> treat me like a criminal
      The last thing you're treated like is a criminal in the US. In fact, leave the airport and you'll probably not have another interaction with somebody from law enforcement until your return flight; 95% of police here are nice guys, more so when you get out of the major urban areas, so don't fear the police.

  4. Failure by ttys00 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    What happens when these chips fail? Do you get locked up for tampering with a Federal document, or some crap like that?

    1. Re:Failure by Hadlock · · Score: 4, Funny

      Exactly! I mean, I've been known to toss my passport in the microwave with my easy mac from time to time - if that RFID tag gets toasted, it's not my fault!

      --
      moox. for a new generation.
    2. Re:Failure by selderrr · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That is not the core problem. The issue is that IF the gov claims these tags to be secure (which they will), and your tag gets copied by someone (which, if ever feasible by criminals, can be done wirelessly, so you can't protect yourself unless you start wrapping foil around your wallet. But that would beat the purpose of the RF in RFID) you have very little means left to protect yourself.

      And even worse : who will be blamed if your tag is stolen ? You ? The gov ? Certainly not the crooks as they usually get away with everything. My guess is that the new passport will carry a EULA that shifts all responsabilities to the carrier.

    3. Re:Failure by mpe · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The issue is that IF the gov claims these tags to be secure (which they will), and your tag gets copied by someone (which, if ever feasible by criminals, can be done wirelessly, so you can't protect yourself unless you start wrapping foil around your wallet. But that would beat the purpose of the RF in RFID)

      There has never been a document which cannot be forged. Even if such a mythical document could be created there is still the problem of criminal gangs getting a foothold in the issuing of "real" documents, through either getting a job with the issuing agency or bribing/blackmailing existing employees.

      And even worse : who will be blamed if your tag is stolen ? You ? The gov ? Certainly not the crooks as they usually get away with everything.

      When it comes to identity theft the "crooks" include foreign governments. Even when they get caught, as recently happened in New Zealand, all they got was a few months in jail...

    4. Re:Failure by viktor · · Score: 2, Funny

      [...]unless you start wrapping foil around your wallet. But that would beat the purpose of the RF in RFID

      And here I was, thinking that "RF" meant "wRapped in Foil"...

  5. Simple solution by polysylabic+psudonym · · Score: 5, Informative

    Turn your bag into a faraday cage, keep your passport in your bag.

    1. Re:Simple solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      In my country, such faraday-cage bags have been out-lawed in several cities. As they (might) block your personal information from traveling outside of that bag, they allso block the signals of anti-theft RFID components going the same way.

      The reasoning is that if you (want to) block those signals, you're probably out attempting to steal something ...

    2. Re:Simple solution by maxwell+demon · · Score: 4, Funny

      Or just carry your passport in your tinfoil hat.

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    3. Re:Simple solution by will_die · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You don't use a jammer you use a RFID blocker, and they are the size of a regular RFID so you could just slip them into your wallet.
      In a very basic explaination the blockers work by send all possible RFID numbers(in the billions and billions) so that readers get over wealmed and give up.
      Thier is some talk that when RFID become more used that bags will have the blocker chip in them. This would allow the all benifits of RFID for the consumer but also allow privacy. Some other ideas have a keychain fob with an alert, when you are being read, so that you can switch on/off as you want.

  6. Or, on the other hand for target selection by kentmartin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Let me get this straight. Assume I am a bad guy. If I want to find an American overseas - particularly in a country where carrying a passport is mandatory, how am I going to go about it?

    To take it one step further, if I am wifi'd into a database somehow, I can even do a few smarts and identify a "better" target (wealthier, public figure etc).

    I carry an Australian passport and it will not shock me when "the Clever Country" bends over and does what the Americans do - yet again!

    1. Re:Or, on the other hand for target selection by polysylabic+psudonym · · Score: 5, Funny

      Come on! Like you need RFID to spot the American tourist!

    2. Re:Or, on the other hand for target selection by SenseiLeNoir · · Score: 5, Funny

      DISCLIAMER: I do like Americans in general, and i have a lot of american frineds, who are friendly, respectful, and people who i would hold dear.

      The "worst" American tourist, is the oil rich, no brain texan with the loud hat, louder belly, and even louder mouth.

      I had a particularly intresting time a couple of months ago, with a particular specimen of Texan "mouth power". I was on the London underground heading to work, and there was a loud texan onboard, and he was ranting abotu how things were a lot "bigger" back home, to the absolute annoyance of all the other passengers on board (including his poor wife, who seemed a nice lady).

      anyway, he comes up to me and asks me:
      "Son, tell me now, what "tube" do i have to catch to go to Manchester"

      now, here is a few facts for those not from UK/London.
      - the Tube is our nickname for the London Underground, our subway/metro/transit.
      - It covers ONLY london. nowhere else.
      -Manchester is another city altogether.. like New York and Los Angeles
      - there is a big ass advert in the train that he was looking at, which talks about day trips to manchester, and HOW to do it!?!?

      most of the people on board were like, WTF? is this guy real...

      I simply told him, "Stay on this train for about 4 hours, and it will reach manchester!"

      What i didnt tell him, was the train in concern is the "Circle Line" which simply runs around london in a loop!!!!! {EVIL GRIN}

      The smiles on the rest of the passengers were certainly a picture.. as was the way he was thanking me for my "advise", and was the last thing i saw... as i got off at the next station!

      --
      Have a nice day!
    3. Re:Or, on the other hand for target selection by forii · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I simply told him, "Stay on this train for about 4 hours, and it will reach manchester!"

      What i didnt tell him, was the train in concern is the "Circle Line" which simply runs around london in a loop!!!!! {EVIL GRIN}


      So rather than inform an obvious newcomer to your country of this fact, you instead took the chance to be an asshole. And your country is better...how?

    4. Re:Or, on the other hand for target selection by ViolentGreen · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well I'd rather deal with a loudmouth, annoying texan who at least has good intentions then someone like you.

      --
      Not everything is analogous to cars. Car analogies rarely work.
    5. Re:Or, on the other hand for target selection by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      I call BS. I can certify as a long-time resident of Texas that this has all the marks of "I totally made this shit up based on some Texas stereotypes I saw on TV" with (perhaps) a little, "I hate Bush and he's from Texas" thrown in.

      I grew up in Texas and continue to live there (in an oil-rich area, no less), and though I occasionally see people wearing cowboy hats and big belt buckles, I don't know any one personally who would.

      That bit about everything being bigger in Texas was a nice touch. Everyone who's been THROUGH Texas probably believes we all think that. All the gas station/gift shop places lining the interstates are filled with merchandise supporting that conclusion. But, again, I've never met anyone who actually cares. It's just tourist bologna.

    6. Re:Or, on the other hand for target selection by dbIII · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Assume I am a bad guy. If I want to find an American overseas
      Wouldn't it be a cheap and trivial bit of electronics to trigger a claymore mine or other piece of nastyness when someone goes by with a RFID tag? This has got to be the most counterproductive "security" measure so far.
    7. Re:Or, on the other hand for target selection by forgotten_my_nick · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It does sound made up but there are certainly tourists like that. I have met quite a few. But certainly the US don't hold the monopoly on annoying tourists. One that springs to mind. I was at CeBit years ago and I am waiting for a Tram to get to the conference. Beside me is an American couple. The husband is loud and going on as the previous poster mentioned how "Everything is better where we live". He is complaining about tickets for the tram. I mention to him it is a prepay system and he needs to buy a ticket from a shop. He complains loudly about how backward that is. I have a book of tickets for the week so I give him two. They cost about 50c each (at that time). He says thanks and then gives me $20. I tell him that is way too much money and I really don't want any money for them but he goes on about how its not that much money in his country and how worthless European money is. Felt a bit insulted after that.

    8. Re:Or, on the other hand for target selection by SenseiLeNoir · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Obviously, you have not read the disclaimer.

      I, like MOST Londonners are VERY amiable to tourists, it keeps the London economy ticking, and many time I have gone to central london during the weekends, where myself and my friends have been very friendly towards tourists, showing them around, and stuff. Although we get nominal "expenses" for this, in reality we do it because we enjoy it, and love to learn about others. I ESPECIALLY am fond of New Yorkers, who I view as coming from London's sister city. I am also Sri Lankan born, just for your information, so i am not a typical "white man, from little england"

      EVEN "Loud Mouthed Texans" are GREAT fun to be with. They are VERY noticable, but that doesnt mean they are not appealling.

      In reality, I skipped out a couple of details in that description of what happend. The man in concern was ALSO being racist and offensive to Chinese and Black people, saying london is "full of japs with cameras" and "niggers running the show" that the Mayor should take a stand and deal with it.

      There WERE a lot of offended people, and a confrontation seemed likely to erupt. I said what i said to introduce humour into the OTHER passengers and to diffuse what could have been a very bad situation. It worked.

      As i got off the train, i contacted the underground staff at the station and explained what was happening, and they had a polite word with him, and it was pretty evenly resolved. Afterwards I did see the funny side to the whole thing.

      My original post was a reflection of the humour that myself and my fellow passengers felt at the time.

      Guys, its friday, lighten up! For gods sakes, humour is sorely needed here.

      As for your views about British Drunken Yobs, well I am safe to say, they are not welcome by the majority of the Brits either.

      --
      Have a nice day!
    9. Re:Or, on the other hand for target selection by legojenn · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Hey, I think I met that guy too when I was in London on holiday a few years ago. I was in London with my boyfriend at the time who was then living in England. So, we were on the London Eye and as you may well know, once you get in, you can't get out until it's made the loop around. Anyhow, This middle-aged American man with a Chicago Bears hat guy hears me speaking with ythe guy I was with and it's something like, "yer an American, Right, ah don't know what people see in this place. It's crowded and expensive and people are rude and there ain't much ta see." I politely replied that I wasn't American and maybe he wasn't giving the place a chance as you could spend years in London and not see or do all it's great things that it has to offer. His repsonse was, "Nahh, yer American" His wife finally shut him down, but he had already made a fool of himself.

      Another experience that trip was in a cafe near the tube station at Green Park? I think. A woman was sitting at the table staring at a bunch of coins. She asked us what these were. I didn't have much patience for it. I figured that the coins had their denominations stamped on them and knowing simple math would be sufficient. The guy I was with figured that she just wanted rough equivalents, like the penny is the penny, there is no eqivalent to the 2p coin, the 5p coin is like the nickel, 10p dime, 20p quarter (though not as many p) 50p no common name for th equivalent. I guess that one was just funny because it was strange. It's easy to pick on US tourists, because there are so many of them.

      I realise that when you travel, you go to relax, you also put yourself in a new place, but why do tourists also seem to turn their brains off when they leave their home city/country etc?

      Hint for tourists to London, stay on the right side on the escalators in the Tube. I saw some old guy, well maybe middle aged, poke some tourist in the back with an umbrella, who then tripped. I laughed so hard, I almost fell over myself.

      --
      I make a reasonable middle-class wage by going to work and not spamming blogs with scams.
    10. Re:Or, on the other hand for target selection by Colonel+Cholling · · Score: 5, Funny

      The "worst" American tourist, is the oil rich, no brain texan with the loud hat, louder belly, and even louder mouth.

      I'll thank you not to refer to our President as a "tourist."

      --

      I am Sartre of the Borg. Existence is futile.
    11. Re:Or, on the other hand for target selection by dubious9 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Ah, a *much* more believable story (than GP) ;). I love stupid turist stories. Anyway, in my travels its always Americans who are the stupid turists. I've hung with Aussies in Norway that would out drunk everybody (an expensive task when a pint will run you like $8) then still be curtious enough on the way home. Asians, well mostly Japanese in my experience, plan well, are quiet and know what to ask for, and almost as fun to drink with. Americans, are, well, loud. Here's some tips.

      1. Like I said, Americans are loud. If you don't want to stick out, shut up.
      2. Don't wear jewelery, especially in countries where it would be an obnoxious display of wealth, not to mention it automatically makes you a target.
      3. If you still want to blend in, don't wear shorts, plaid, flannel, sneakers, or baseball caps. In some countries jeans too, but especially in Europe bluejeans are a fashion statement so your cut up old Levi's won't cut it ;). You'll still stick out, but not as much. Really. In some countries you can pick out Americans from a hundred yards away.
      4. Say you're from Canada if you get into a sticky situation. Most anti-Americanism is directed at the government, but alot is not. It may sound funny, but seriously, and especially if you drink (alcohol+antiAmericanism=not good), you can diffuse a potentially explosive situation if you say you're from Canada. Eh?
      5. Ask a travel agent. I know they're quickly becoming a thing of the past (with on-line booking), but they know what they're talking about. They'll have a lot better tips then I'll ever have.
      6. Learn metric. You automatically sound much smarter. If you frequent pubs as much as I like to do (ok I'm a lush), people will ask you were you are from and then how far it is away from a major city. Pittsburgh? Oh maybe 500km west of Philadelphia. Don't know philly? 200km southwest on NYC. Just ballpark it. And when getting directions be prepared to hear meters.
      7. Be careful of colloquialisms, people won't understand you. Use plain language.

      --
      Why, o why must the sky fall when I've learned to fly?
    12. Re:Or, on the other hand for target selection by xtal · · Score: 4, Insightful


      Say you're from Canada if you get into a sticky situation. Most anti-Americanism is directed at the government, but alot is not. It may sound funny, but seriously, and especially if you drink (alcohol+antiAmericanism=not good), you can diffuse a potentially explosive situation if you say you're from Canada. Eh?


      I'm a Canadian. Please don't do this.

      What does it say about your great and proud country that you might feel the need to LIE about being one of it's citizens?

      *sigh*

      --
      ..don't panic
  7. Little step for the state, medium step for slavery by faragon · · Score: 2, Informative

    I'm a bit afraid about this, as soon as that mean that everybody bringing passport will be "traceable"... but, why?

    The target of a proposed solution usually it is driven by a defined utility: to speed up a procedure or whatever. But in this case, do will really speed up or improve something? What about passport authentication? For sure can not be 100% automated, as soon as RF ID chips can be, at least, cloned (from the sophisticated data retrieval via millitary X-Ray uC inspection or via amateur hacking, or whatever).

    Summary: a cop/inspector will be still needed to validate your passport, then, there will no be "bottleneck solving" or whatever other problem was intended to be solved.

    This too much control may irritate my civil rights chip... soon here at Europe. Regards.

  8. Re:Law Enforcement by polysylabic+psudonym · · Score: 4, Informative

    Unfortunately RFID tags don't have much range. You'd have to be practically on top of your stuff to find it - that or have the whole town you're in set up to track RFID tags as they move through doorways etc. I think I'd rather lose my passport, cash and credit cards than have that, though.

  9. Re:Law Enforcement by big+ben+bullet · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Maybe... but it sounds to me that the thing is not going to be that difficult to hack.

    No encryption, only a digital signature...

    He even admits it at the end of the article.

    Now let's see what those tinfoil hats think about this. This could becoma a very interesting discussion :)

    Anyway, once again I'm so glad I'm not American.

  10. Nudity by JNighthawk · · Score: 5, Funny

    It's funny. Nudist colonies say they have nothing to hide, but now they'll be the only place *to* hide.

    --
    Wheel in the sky keeps on turnin'.
  11. Schneier's Take by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative
    Bruce Schneier's latest CryptoGram newsletter has an intelligent take on the idiocy of this idea.
    RFID chips can be read by any reader, not just the ones at passport control. The upshot of this is that anyone carrying around an RFID passport is broadcasting his identity.

    Think about what that means for a minute. It means that a passport holder is continuously broadcasting his name, nationality, age, address, and whatever else is on the RFID chip. It means that anyone with a reader can learn that information, without the passport holder's knowledge or consent. It means that pickpockets, kidnappers, and terrorists can easily -- and surreptitiously -- pick Americans out of a crowd.
    (Personally, I find the garish clothes, arrogant demeanour and lack of any interest in speaking local languages enables us to do this pretty easily anyway).
  12. One for the locals by malsdavis · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Local tourist sales people will love it. Imagine how good it would be for them if they could get hold a machine that could locate nearby Americna tourists alowing them to approach them first before the hundreds of other "you want cheap watch?" sellers.

    1. Re:One for the locals by Zork+the+Almighty · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Or think of it this way. Now the extremists will know exactly who to kidnap, or where best to strike with their suicide bombs! Feel the security!

      --

      In Soviet America the banks rob you!
  13. Re:ID... by Tjebbe · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The difference is that with current passports, you have to show it, which has to be asked, and which you can refuse, so you have the ability to choose to accept the consequences of not showing your passport. With rfid tags it can be done without you even knowing it, and thus without you agreeing to.

  14. What makes you think you have privacy? by mrjb · · Score: 3, Insightful

    When you show your passport at the airport or as means of identification at a bank, for instance, the same privacy issues arise, RFID or not.

    Sure, RFID can be read from a distance, but many of us seem sooooo worried about RFID and yet happily keep carrying a mobile phone, willingly pay by card or withdraw money from an ATM, and get in view of security cameras. No tinfoil hat is going to protect against that.

    If there are privacy issues, it is because someone decides to abuse the technology, RFID or not.

    If you want privacy, pay cash only, stay home, don't use phones, and don't do anything that requires identifying yourself.

    --
    Visit http://ringbreak.dnd.utwente.nl/~mrjb/growingbettersoftware to download your free copy of the book
    1. Re:What makes you think you have privacy? by microbox · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If there are privacy issues, it is because someone decides to abuse the technology, RFID or not

      Identity theft is already a serious problem, and RFID tags just make people more vulnerable. Imagine if someone copied your tag and then commited a crime.

      There's also abuse of the information by public officials. Throughout history there are instances of people abusing so-called private information. For example, a police officer accessing information on the cute girl who lives next door.

      The more centralized the information, the more potential for abuse and again, the more vulnerable people are.

      Is there a transparant public procedure of how the information is used and accessed? Or do we have a security through obsurity situation that allows wide ranging and hidden abuse of the system.

      --

      Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
  15. Re:Law Enforcement by macaulay805 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Sure, today its passports. Tomorrow its ID Cards/Drivers License, then the day after that its implants.

    One step at a time to take away anonymity and freedom. Kind of like the PATRIOT act. "In times of need, we will mandate the tracking process of people using RFID enabled cards."

    There is also the fact, that people outside the US can spoof the RFID system and, *BAM*, lets make counterfeit stuff, or better yet, lets track where they are going and sell their information to marketers.

    If we want to be left alone, we can not broadcast our information to the very public we want to keep away from.

    Or maybe I should wake up before I start posting to ./ about these issues. My 2 cents.

  16. Re:ID... by gowen · · Score: 5, Insightful

    But you get to choose who to show your passport to. Anyone can read RFID information, as long as they can get reasonably close to you.

    --
    Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
  17. No enyryption of the data by maxwell+demon · · Score: 5, Insightful
    From the article:
    Security experts said the U.S. government decided not to encrypt the data because of the risks involved in sharing the method of decryption with other countries.

    And those very same security "experts" obviously don't know that there are methods for secure encryption known throughout the world even now? You don't need to be an expert to know that!

    And no, I can't see any other explanation. It cannot be the possibility of unallowed reading of the data: That's even easier if the data isn't encrypted at all. And it cannot be the possibility of making forged passports: Having data not encrypted makes this not any harder than having it encrypted with a known encryption.

    Even in the worst case scenario, when the decryption key was made public by some other state, the situation couldn't get worse than without any encryption at all. Of course, the USA could just decide not to give the key (or any specification at all) to countries they don't trust. Those countries would then just have to do what they do now: Rely on the non-RFID portion of the passport (which is currently all that is in a passport).

    So there is really no excuse to store unencrypted data on the RFID chip.
    --
    The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  18. RFID co-channel interference? by cardpuncher · · Score: 3, Interesting

    When your clothes have RFID chips and your passport and driving license and you're in an environment where everything else has been chipped, are the scanners going to be able to pick up anything but noise?

    1. Re:RFID co-channel interference? by bentcd · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yes. They have protocols specifically to allow for this.
      It might be more of a problem if there are RFID _readers_ all over the place. They might interfere with eachother's attempt at scanning for RFID chips. I have no idea whether the protocols allow for this.

      --
      sigs are hazardous to your health
  19. Biometrics imposed on the world by doodlelogic · · Score: 3, Interesting

    As US passport authorities are indirectly forcing the rest of the world's governments to include biometrics in their passports (otherwise they will be denied the Visa Waiver Program).

    Seems only fair that similar invasions of privacy should be imposed on Americans too. What's good for the goose...

    1. Re:Biometrics imposed on the world by R.Caley · · Score: 2, Informative
      US passport authorities are indirectly forcing the rest of the world's governments to include biometrics in their passports

      And crap (well even more crap than the usual crapulatity of biometrics) biometrics at that. BBC report about tests of the system.

      What I can't work out is the motive for enforcing face recognition biometrics. Human beings are so good at face recognition and machines so bad at it that it's hard to believe anyone would propose such a system unless there was some other payoff, but I can;'t think what it might be.

      --
      _O_
      .|<
      The named which can be named is not the true named
    2. Re:Biometrics imposed on the world by mikerich · · Score: 2, Informative
      What I can't work out is the motive for enforcing face recognition biometrics.

      Well for the UK government the reason is 'because it's new and a very nice man from [insert name of big IT company] told us that everyone would want it next year.'

      The British government must be the World's largest consumer of bad IT projects - a magistrates' courts system that had to be abandoned, a procurement system for the Ministry of Defence that didn't procur, passports not being issued, tax refunds not paid, child support payments being delayed that people were left in poverty, an air traffic control that failed basic HCI requirements, the current NHS IT system which could work out so expensive there won't be money to treat patients...

      About the only good thing that can be said about the British government's ability to deliver IT is that the ID card system is probably going to be DOA.

      Best wishes,
      Mike.

  20. Re:War on Terrorism by tuxette · · Score: 2, Funny
    American citizens are warned regularly to be inconspicuous when overseas.

    Being warned is one thing. But until they ban the sale of bright white sneakers, baseball caps, and fanny packs, one can pick out an American tourist any day.

    --
    People say I'm crazy, I got diamonds on the soles of my shoes...
  21. Not a problem... by ForestGrump · · Score: 3, Funny

    I'll just microwave my passport like I do with my cash.

    Grump

    --
    Is it true that more people vote for the winner of American Idol, than vote for the president? -Ali G.
  22. Re:RFID Worries... by frdmfghtr · · Score: 4, Informative

    From the article:

    New U.S. passports will soon be read remotely at borders around the world, thanks to embedded chips that will broadcast on command an individual's name, address and digital photo to a computerized reader.

    Any questions?

    --
    Government's idea of a balanced budget: take money from the right pocket to balance...oh who am I kidding?
  23. Govt makes own citizens walking targets! by a24061 · · Score: 3, Interesting
    As I said last time this was mentioned, this will let terrorists to create a bomb triggered by the presence (within the RFID's readable range) of someone of a specific nationality.

    So the US government is making it easier for people to target its own citizens. Nice.

  24. The Terrorist Bomber's Dream! by newt · · Score: 5, Interesting

    RFID chips can be read from up to 50 feet away. Sure, most readers only work from a few inches, but there is off-the-shelf equipment available for a moderate number of dollars with a much, much greater range.

    So, lets assume that the RFID chips in US Passports will be readable from "a long way away". Doesn't matter if it's 10 feet, 20 feet or 50 feet. Lets just say it's more than a few inches.

    What does this mean? It means that a bomber with a moderate budget could build a detonator for an explosive device which goes off when it can detect the presence of an RFID chip.

    It doesn't need to actually read the chip (lets assume the passport data is encrypted), it just needs to know it's there.

    Furthermore, it could count the number of unique RFIDs which are currently in range, and only detonate the explosive when enough of them are seen at the same time.

    It could be planted days, weeks or months in advance, and it'd sit there until its batteries ran down waiting for the right moment to go off.

    The result is a bomb which only goes off when a sufficiently large density of American citizens is present.

    - mark

    --

    -----
    I tried an internal modem, but it hurt when I walked.

    1. Re:The Terrorist Bomber's Dream! by newt · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Read this month's CRYPTO-GRAM.

      Bruce Schneier thinks the reason the RFID chips are being mandated for passwords is to permit the US Govt to read them from long distances in crowds.

      He's not exactly the kind of guy who makes this stuff up.

      Same principle, different application.

      - mark

      --

      -----
      I tried an internal modem, but it hurt when I walked.

    2. Re:The Terrorist Bomber's Dream! by CreatureComfort · · Score: 2, Interesting



      Why wait? They could do it now with the RFID in $20 bills. Hey, by counting number of unique IDs, they could target only wealthy Americans.

      --
      "Unheard of means only it's undreamed of yet,
      Impossible means not yet done." ~~ Julia Ecklar
  25. A signature would only provide limited security. by Serious+Simon · · Score: 2, Interesting
    If no encryption is embedded in the RFID tags, and the signature is done as a secret calculation on the data, you could copy all the data including the signature.

    Of course it will be difficult to change the data and create a fake passport, but you could copy the tag from someone else's passport (without their knowledge) and use it in identity theft.

    A complication would be that blank RFID tags cannot be obtained with the same serial number (current RFID tags mostly have unique serial numbers that are pre-programmed by the chip manufacturer). I would expect that the serial number is included in the signature calculation.

    However, you could still build your own functionally equivalent "RFID tag chip" using off the shelf logic components and program any serial number you like. It would not be as compact as a real RFID tag, but it could be used in situations where the tag would be read without being visible.

  26. Going naked won't do it... by irishkev · · Score: 3, Interesting

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/print.php?url=/release s/2002/10/021015073446.htm

    Gait Recognition Technology May Aid Homeland Defense
    The characteristics of your walk may not be as distinctive as the swaggering of John Wayne or the sashay of Joan Collins, but your stride may still be unique enough to identify you at a distance -- alone or among a group of people.

    Researchers at the Georgia Institute of Technology and elsewhere are developing technologies to recognize a person's walk, or gait. Results indicate these new identification methods hold promise as tools in the war on terrorism and in medical diagnosis.

    Gait recognition technology is a biometric method - that is, a unique biological or behavioral identification characteristic, such as a fingerprint or a face. Though still in its infancy, the technology is growing in significance because of federal studies, such as the Georgia Tech projects, funded by the federal Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA).

    At Georgia Tech, one study is addressing issues of gait recognition by computer vision, and the other is exploring a novel approach -- gait recognition with a radar system similar to those used by police officers to catch speeders.

    The ultimate goal is detect, classify and identify humans at distances up to 500 feet away under day or night, all-weather conditions. Such capabilities will enhance the protection of U.S. forces and facilities from terrorist attacks, according to DARPA officials.

    "We need technology to find the bad guys at a distance around federal buildings," says Jon Geisheimer, a research engineer at the Georgia Tech Research Institute (GTRI). "That is the original application. And after Sept. 11, we began to see the usefulness of these technologies in airports."

    Because gait recognition technology is so new, researchers are assessing the uniqueness of gait and methods by which it can be evaluated.

    "We know that we can get some information on gait, but that it is much less diagnostic than faces," says Aaron Bobick, an associate professor of computing and co-director of the computer vision project at Georgia Tech. " Currently, we can't recognize one in 100,000 people. At the moment, gait recognition is not capable of that, but it's getting better so it can act as a filter."

    In its early development, gait recognition technology likely will serve as a screening tool in conjunction with other biometric methods.

    With two years of experiments and analysis almost complete, researchers on both Georgia Tech projects are hopeful for continued funding to conduct further studies. They must address numerous technical issues and it will be at least five years before the technologies are commercialized, researchers say.

    In the project using radar for gait recognition, results from experiments, data analysis and algorithm design are promising, says Geisheimer, who works under the direction of GTRI principal research scientist Gene Greneker, and collaborates with GTRI research engineer Bill Marshall and Georgia State University Professor of Biomechanics Ben Johnson.

    Gait recognition by radar focuses on the gait cycle formed by the movements of a person's various body parts move over time.

    "The magic goal we're shooting for is accuracy in the high 90 percent range," Geisheimer says. "We're not there yet, but our initial results are encouraging and promising."

    Researchers correctly identified 80 to 95 percent of individual subjects, with variances in that range among the three experiment days.

    The next step is to build a more powerful radar system and test it in the lab and then the field. In experiments last year, subjects started walking 50 feet away from the radar and then walked within 15 feet of it. But researchers are now building a radar system that can detect people from 500 or more feet.

    In the study of gait recognition by computer vision, researchers distinguish their approach from others with a techniqu

  27. There's money in this... by RotHorseKid · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Does anyone else smell a business opportunity for Radio-shielded passport sleeves?

    --
    Nobody writes jokes in base 13. - DNA
  28. Scanning butts for cash by SgtChaireBourne · · Score: 4, Interesting
    You want to walk around broadcasting data who you are to anyone with a hidden RFID reader?

    This reminds me of a comment along similar lines.

    When the U.S. mint added the shiny metallic strips to the bills, a friend of mine claimed quite seriously that it was so that it would be possible to "scan your butt" (or wherever you carry your wallet) to see if you were carrying loads of cash. My response at the time was sceptical, especially since the comment came from someone very non-tech, but wonder if it is even technically possible.

    If the material is conductive, it should respond/reflect/absorb a specific frequency much like chaff does. Would it be possible to build a cash scanner? And if so ... "where can I get me one?" ;)

    --
    Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
  29. Re:Law Enforcement by mirko · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Exactly my point, I think it's just providing an encrypted mean of reading a passport a quicker way without even having to open it, then ensure it's real.
    The real issue is to know whether we need passports as a single RFID could store it all, each of the element being encrypted for a specific usage only...

    --
    Trolling using another account since 2005.
  30. It's all in the mind by Space+cowboy · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Whereas I think the addition of RFID chips to passports is simply another incremental step, and passports are in fact there to identify you anyway, if you take a step back and read your last paragraph
    If you want privacy, pay cash only, stay home, don't use phones, and don't do anything that requires identifying yourself.
    What part of that is 'freedom' ? When did the USA go from 'the land of the free' to the 'spy on me any which way you want' ?

    Hell, it's your country, your politics, your ideals, and your decision; I don't really care - it's mainly a curiosity for me that sociological values can change so rapidly.

    I've just obtained a visa for the US, and had to give my fingerprints - I was curiously antagonistic towards this, and again it's nothing more than another incremental step. After thinking about it for a while I realised it's nothing to do with privacy, it's that I mentally associate being fingerprinted with being a criminal.

    I felt I'd been judged and summarily convicted of something (what, I don't know, being an alien perhaps). As a reasonably law-abiding citizen (ok, I admit I sometimes exceed the speed limit on a motorway :-) it offended me at some deep level mainly because of that association - you *never* have to give fingerprints in the UK unless you've been caught breaking the law... Of course if "Stalin" Blunkett gets his way, that will all change...

    Simon.
    --
    Physicists get Hadrons!
    1. Re:It's all in the mind by HuskyDog · · Score: 2, Informative
      you *never* have to give fingerprints in the UK unless you've been caught breaking the law

      Not strictly true. In the UK you can be made to give your fingerprints if you are arrested. That is not the same as being caught breaking the law, since plenty of innocent people get arrested. Now, once upon a time this didn't matter a great deal, since the police could only keep your prints if you were subsequently convicted and since most innocent people who are arrested are not convicted the odds were that your prints would be destroyed.

      However, all that changed when Blair and his cronies got into power. First, (a few years ago) the law was changed so that your prints were kept if you were charged. Yes, that's right. You go to court, the jury says "Not guilty" and the police still keep your prints on file! When I was a lad, if you were found not guilty it meant that you hadn't done the crime. Now the government assumes that you did commit the crime, but they just can't prove it.

      Many of us thought it couldn't get worse, but we didn't count on jackboot Blunket who has now allowed the police to keep the prints of anyone who is arrested. Since the police can arrest anyone they want for practically anything, they can now get and keep the prints of anyone they don't like the look of.

      Of course, this is all a moot point since Blunket's proposed compulsary ID card scheme will use fingerprints. Now, when I first heard about this I assumed that they would record perhaps two or three fingers from each person like we do for the readers on some of the secure computers at work, but no, apparently the trials currently being run involve taking all ten prints. Funny that!

  31. Re:Law Enforcement by dkf · · Score: 3, Insightful
    If the range is not that far, why the concern about being tracked?
    What do you bet that there won't be some clever person in the next ten years that figures out how to build an ultra-sensitive focussed RFID reader that reads tags at a distance?
    --
    "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
  32. Terror by Lucky_Norseman · · Score: 3, Informative

    A very very scary thought occurred to me.

    What if some terrorists connected such a transponder to an explosive device?

    Imagine placing a bomb in some public place. A bomb that is totally harmless until a certain number of american passports are in close proximity and then BOOOM!

    I hope someone in counter-terrorrism has thought of that and found a way to prevent it. If not they should do so ASAP.

  33. Re:spoof by dildo · · Score: 3, Insightful
    There are two simpler ways to do this that do not require burning out your chip.


    1. RSA Blocker Tag

    2. Tinfoil cover

    3. Faraday cage purse.


    There is no money in discovering RFID blocking devices. There is a possible market in creating a cheap RFID detector.

  34. Gods own country ... by gerddie · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Revelation 13 (16-17)
    And it causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark on their right hand, or in their foreheads, even that not any might buy or sell except those having the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of its name.

    The bible always makes a good reading - not that I am a beliver, or so.

    1. Re:Gods own country ... by AK+Marc · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well, when the government starts mandating that all passports be stapled to the bearer's forehead, I'll start worrying.

      RFIDs are getting us further from Amageddon. No longer will they be stamped on out foreheads or right hands, but they will be able to read the number of the beast straight from our pocket. Thus, we will have averted Armageddon.

  35. Re:Law Enforcement by Mattcelt · · Score: 2, Informative

    The problem is that the range is entirely dependent on the receiving equipment. These are only intended to be read from a few inches/cm away. But the way that RFID works leaves gaping holes for exploitation and abuse.

    Basically, an RFID "chip" is a passive, unpowered radio tranceiver. When it receives a radio transmission of a certain power level and frequency, the antenna resonates, inducing a current within the circuitry. This current is passed through filters - AND/OR/XOR/NOT gates or what not, I'm nott 100% sure - which are unique to the data contained on the chip. By this process, the output power levels and frequency can be modified in accordance with what information the implementers want to be transmitted back. (This is nearly identical technology to the proximity cards and readers many of us have used at work, parking garages, dormitories, etc.)

    The problem is, the chip will respond to any proper wavelength and dB, so there is no practical way (not yet anyway, though the technology is being developed for crypto-enabled RFID) to control to whom the chip will respond. This means that anybody can request the data contained on the chip (or perhaps more importantly, whether or not a chip is present!).

    What's more, the chip simply outputs a certain radio frequency which any radio receiver in the propagation sphere can receive. It's been demonstrated that a properly tuned and sensitive receiver can read the resulting broadcast from an RFID chip from several, if not tens, of meters away.

    There's a rather good article on the subject of RFID passports at Bruce Schneier's blog.

  36. Re:Bring It On. by 0123456 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "I'm fed up with having to produce many bits of paper just to prove who I am"

    They you should be opposing the 'identity' culture, not supporting it.

    These chips will do nothing to make people safer (they'll be no harder to forge than current passports), but will certainly make some people less safe by broadcasting their information to anyone with an RFID reader.

  37. Cool! by existenzmaximum · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Security at last! Just look at the chances for Terrorists! How about scanning the RFID of someone's passport and placing a bomb connected with a programmed RFID-Reader somewhere. As soon as he walks by... *bang* 100% failsafe, absolut secure.. Oh, the irony...

  38. No really, you don't really have a choice by mrjb · · Score: 2, Insightful

    > You CANNOT choose who scans for RFID tags

    This would be the main problem, because tracing people with or without RFID is still perfectly possible. What I'm saying is that choice is limited, regardless of RFID - yes, you can switch off your phone, but it won't be of much use then.

    Ever travelled abroad with a passport (without RFID)? You better believe that it was registered when you passed the border. RFID doesn't change that.

    As for the main problem, '*anyone* being able to scan you' rather than just the government, most likely the main result is getting more spam. 'Welcome back mr Yakamoto', Minority-report style. Otherwise, laws against stalking are already in place.

    What bothers me more already happens anyway nowadays. Days after my phone connection was activated, I was called by three different newspapers for a subscription. I doubt that those newspapers found out by themselves, so my private information must have been given to them by the phone company. Where was my choice in that?

    We live in a grim world indeed.

    --
    Visit http://ringbreak.dnd.utwente.nl/~mrjb/growingbettersoftware to download your free copy of the book
  39. Block the tag w/ a foil bag (source cited) by Ingolfke · · Score: 5, Informative

    Wrapping a tag in aluminum foil blocks the radio waves and prevents a tag from being identified. -
    RFID Hack Could Allow Retail Fraud

    Most of the concern seems to be around unauthorized person reading the RFID chip. According to this article blocking RFID chips is very easy to do if you have physical posession of the chip. Just wrap it in tinfoil. It would seem that someone would make a bag/box/pouch that would store your passport and protect it from being read w/o authorization. When you were in an area that required that you show your passport, the airport for example, you would just take the passport out of the bag. Sounds like a $19.95 solution to me.

    I guess if you took your passport out at the hotel or some other place like that you could be "vulnerable". Maybe this solution from RSA woul help?

    It does seem like the solution here is not to say "no RFIDs in the passports", but actually to ensure that there is a way to easily control when the tag is read. And there seem to be several solutions available.

    1. Re:Block the tag w/ a foil bag (source cited) by commodoresloat · · Score: 3, Insightful
      It does seem like the solution here is not to say "no RFIDs in the passports", but actually to ensure that there is a way to easily control when the tag is read. And there seem to be several solutions available.

      Yes; there's a solution called the "bar code," and it doesn't require any damned RF technology. Why bother using RFID if it isn't to be able to read the thing at a distance? If you're going to have to take it out of the pouch to deliver the information, they might as well have to run a barcode scanner over it as well.

  40. Is the USA still a democratic system? by Advocadus+Diaboli · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Sorry for the "stupid" question in the subject line, but so far I (as an European citizen) was told that the USA is a democratic system. So I guess that the US citizens should be able to express their discomfort about RFID tagging in the upcoming elections. Just a thought of a naive European...

    1. Re:Is the USA still a democratic system? by AK+Marc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So I guess that the US citizens should be able to express their discomfort about RFID tagging in the upcoming elections.

      That isn't an option. We can't tell our representatives what to do, only select from the slate provided and pick one. We may tell them what we would like, but they are not required to do it. So no, we have absolutely no direct say on such topics. And since most Americans care more about whether we will allow use of stem cells for medical research or whether abortion will be a medical proceedure or if the puritanical elements get it relegated back to the alleys, we will never see such issues at the forefront. In fact, any candidate that comes out in opposition of the RFIDs will be branded a traitor to America that is soft on crime and terrorism that will get us all killed if elected. I hope this insight into the American political process helps. RFIDs are here to stay. The businesses like them, and they run the US, not the people that vote.

  41. I had a dream. . . by Fantastic+Lad · · Score: 2, Funny
    that my leg was hurting. I had this zit-like sore. When I looked at, a light started blinking under the skin.

    Horrified, I dug out the offending material. It was one of those RFID chips the "Size of a grain of rice", --but in my dream it was more the size of a glass bean. It was also filled with lots of scary techno-bits and pieces whirring and blinking inside. Special effects in dream scapes tend to be a little over the top.

    Heil Shrub.


    -FL

  42. Re:ID... by Tjebbe · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Of course, when asked by a policeman or customs official, IF there is cause to ask you. I have absolutely no right to ask you to show your id just to respond to this message for instance.

    The day that you will be detained when you refuse to show your passport while buying a certain newspaper for instance will be a very grim day...

  43. Re:ID... by Xoro · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you refuse to show it, you're detained. Then, they open up your wallet/purse and look. All you did was delay everyone somewhat and create trouble for yourself with no real difference between they're waving you over or pointing a device.

    Oh really? If you refuse to show it at the hotel? In the cab? In a restaurant? At the movie theater? There is no technical reason anyone can't set up a reader anywhere they want to snoop.

    When I travel, my passport never leaves me. It's such a comfort to know it will be singing out my name, age, photo and home address to anyone who's curious. I feel safer already.

    --
    Kill, Tux, kill!
  44. Patient Selection by nurb432 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Since they are going to start tagging sick people in hospitals, you can ID them pretty easy too.. even without a passport.

    Oh, and special forces, they have had them for some time now to aid in "extraction". Um perhaps i wasnt supposed to reveal that.. Hmm someone at the door..*click*

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  45. Re:RFID Worries... by Algan · · Score: 2, Informative

    but who says that data is in the clear?

    Quote from the article:
    "Security experts said the U.S. government decided not to encrypt the data because of the risks involved in sharing the method of decryption with other countries."

    Man, if some people would just RTFA, the world would be such a better place...

    --
    If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of progress?
  46. Right, No One Knows Where I Am When I'm Overseas by reallocate · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Let's see...I use my credit card to buy a two-week tour package to Europe. The package includes airline reservations, hotel and restaurant reservations, a seat on a tour bus, and tickets to a couple of London shows. How's an RFID chip going to affect my privacy?

    BTW, it's an especially good idea to add the chip to diplomatic passports. Passports can be, and are, counterfeited, so the chip will help to ensure authenticity.

    --
    -- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
  47. Re:Law Enforcement by mirko · · Score: 3, Interesting
    The system could look like this :
    1. RFID emits encrypted info
    2. to decrypt emntioned info, you need to acquire some value from the passport holder.... an iris scan, for example
    3. once decrypted, you get a code
    4. use this code along with yours to access a database in the holder's country in order to retrieve credentials you are willing to share with them.
    --
    Trolling using another account since 2005.
  48. Re:Law Enforcement by clone22 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You're almost there. RFID is a good anti-forgery measure. The serial number on the chip must show up in the passport database. Also, when the passport is issued the photo can be stored digitally, making it easy to authenticate the stored photo against the photo on the passport.

    --
    Ask me about my vow of silence!
  49. UK too by t_allardyce · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Were getting the same thing in the UK starting 2005. I put my passport in the wash the other day so need to get a new one and I wasn't sure what the deal was with biometrics, I vowed not to get one if they already had fingerprint or iris data, I just feel that's totally uncalled for, especially since fingerprint theft could involve cutting off someone's fingers. So far its only going to be facial recognition which I don't really care about - passports already have your picture on them and this is basically just a very very expensive system to do exactly what a human does already. Its already a failure and the money has probably already been spent (the new trend these days is to spend £150M on some new system and then have the company say "erm it doesn't work, sorry, thanks for the money". I got a very big-brother-esq leaflet with my forms that told you exactly how to look for your photo - remember DO NOT smile, DO NOT frown, Look directly into the camera with a neutral expression and think about 9/11 damit! Hopefully they won't be dicks about it, if I go through check-in and the computer says I don't look like myself WTF are they going to do? Look at my photo and say "hmm you look like the photo but the computer says no, im sorry"

    The data should be covered by the DPA so if I ever get a passport with a chip i'll be sure to ask for a printout of what's on it. I don't know if these will be RFID chips or not, i'd hope not, it will only be a matter of time before someone's passport is stolen while its still in their pocket.

    --
    This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
  50. Re:Law Enforcement by harrkev · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Yup. It is not exactly a terrible idea. There is some sense in doing this. In fact, if the only trouble is privacy, I predict new "passport holders" made entirely of metal. Stick the thing in a faraday cage, and it becomes completely harmless. Then, just take it out at border crossings and such.

    In fact, one of those little black bags that hard drives and mobos come packed in might just work.

    --
    "-1 Troll" is the apparently the same as "-1 I disagree with you."
  51. Re:What's the fuss about? by phoenix321 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It is not easier to show, but it is a *lot* harder to hide. That's the point why everyone is making such a fuss around this issue, I think.

    Today, you carry some form of ID, be it driver's license in the US, a national ID in Europe or whatever. You are most of the time obliged to show this piece of ID to law enforcement officers if they ask for.

    Either the officer authenticates him/herself with his badge, a similar ID item or just the entire appearance along with police equipment and police car. So in 99% of all cases, I know when my ID is checked and by whom and I'm sure it was read by real officers on duty or someone is going to jail for posing as one.

    With RFID, none of us can ever know if we were checked, let alone by whom. If that person was really authorized by law and duty to check us, we can only pray for. We want to hide our ID from anyone's eyes who has not identified himself as a lawful officer on duty. With RFID it is hardly possible.

    If the regular police cannot or does not perform simple duties in plain sight, with proper uniform, without hiding the officers identity behind something, having the officers armed only with the law and a baton, our society as a whole is in trouble. Riot shields, handcuffs and a low power hand gun may be necessary at times, but cable ties, fully automatic rifles, masks are certainly unacceptable for me. Special units can have them, but regular policemen and -women should not. Hidden and unnoticed checks for unsuspecting passer-bys performed by guess-who are totally out of question.

    Law enforcement should not use mobster tactics. Should not be armed like mobsters, should not act like them. This may give criminals and terrorists an advantage, but it is the only way to make sure we can distinguish between officers and mobsters. If we allow the police to act like the mob, guess how long it takes for these two to merge...

  52. There IS an RFID DOS by LincolnQ · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You can build an RFID tag that will DOS the system, but you first need to know how RFID works.

    The RFID tag is simply a sequence of bits. You can ask about portions of its tag -- "do you start with sequence X". There is no way to communicate with only one tag; if you send a request, all tags in range hear it and send an affirmative signal if they do start with that sequence (and nothing otherwise).

    When a reader needs to scan many RFID tags at once, it sends a signal saying 'Whose next bit is a 1?' and 'Whose next bit is a 0?' and counts the chirps for each response. When it gets zero chirps, it knows to stop (there are no tags with that ID). If it gets only one chirp, it has found a unique tag and records it. Otherwise, it recurs down both trees.

    If you build a device that always says 'yes' to both questions, the reader will have to recur down both trees 'forever' or give up until you leave range.

    This seems to have the desired effect of preventing RFID scans without your knowledge, and it would certainly be handy to be able to turn it off at will.

    LincolnQ

    1. Re:There IS an RFID DOS by Greyfox · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Hmm. I think I know what the next million-dollar key-fob will be...

      RFID-be-gone anyone?

      --

      I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

    2. Re:There IS an RFID DOS by Technician · · Score: 3, Interesting

      like keeping your passport in a lead bag (used for carrying film)

      Don't take false security in miss-applying technology.

      Some lead bags to make them flexible, use lead paint. The lead particles are suspended in the paint and are not connected to their neigbors. This will block the very short wavelength of X-rays, but allow longer wave radio to pass right on through as the lead particles are not very much of a wavelength at UHF frequecies and below. You are looking for someting that is fully conductive to kill the E field component of a radio wave to make a Farady Cage.

      A cage made from particles not connected to it's neighbors may not work well at frequencies it's not designed to shunt.

      Here is an experiment you can do right in your own kitchen.. Follow the directions carefully to avoid equipment dammage..

      If you have a good strong cell signal in your house (like I do), call your cell phone.

      Now place it in your microwave oven.

      ***** Do not turn on the oven! ******

      Close the door.

      ****** Do not turn on the oven *****

      Did the signal get lost?

      Is the phone still connected?

      Do you have any signal strength on the display?

      Here is the explination of why the phone may remain connected.

      The cavity of the oven is a metal box.. It should fully block RF.. It does.. The door is metal. It should block RF.. It does. The joint between the door and the cavity should have an RF seal..

      Well it kinda does. The door seal on a microwave oven consists of a row of 1/4 wave stubbs that reflect energy from the magnetron back into the cavity preventing their escape. It reflects an RF short from the open end of the stub back to the gap between the door and the cavity. This reflected short connectes the door to the cavity making a continious connection to that frequency. If the door seal gets dirty or has anything caught in it, it no longer works properly. That is why the oven owners manual is worded strongly on keeping the door seal clean, in good shape, and having nothing caught in it. This stub does not work at frequencies it's not designed for. It blocks 802.11b just fine. Your 2.4 GHZ phone might not work in the microwave as that's the frequency it's designed to block. Other frequencies get past with some attenuation.

      This applies to the lead film bags. They are OK at X-rays, but may fall short in UHF and VHF.

      Do the microwave/phone experiment with your cell phone and the film bag. Did it loose connection when placed in the bag and the bag closed?

      If the phone did not loose the signal, then you may want to try another solution.

      --
      The truth shall set you free!
  53. Worried about privacy? Buy some RAM! by AWhistler · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If you're worried about the RFID tags being detected wherever you go, consider this...

    If you put your passport in a static bag, wouldn't it act like a Faraday cage and shield your passport from being detected?

    If so, and I haven't tested this (anyone wanna try?), then if you upgrade the RAM in your PC you should be "protected" from these RFID privacy problems.

  54. Re:Law Enforcement by vettemph · · Score: 2, Funny
    ultra-sensitive focussed RFID reader

    Is that a Pringles can in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?

    --
    The government which is strong enough to protect you from everything is strong enough to take everything from you.
  55. Department of big brother by hey · · Score: 2
    Schneier wrote:

    The administration wants surreptitious access themselves. It wants to be able to identify people in crowds. It wants to surreptitiously pick out the Americans, and pick out the foreigners.

    Annoying.
  56. Re:Bit OT but... by broller · · Score: 2, Informative

    ...does anyone know where this idea came from in the bible...

    I did a bit of googling and came up with this page. It gives a few different theories and possible explainations, from seemingly credible sources.

    Search for "v16" on the page to find the beginning of the discussion about the mark.

  57. Re:looking for a US citizen abroad? by Dr.Knackerator · · Score: 2, Informative

    never thought about checking out chinatown then (about 1/4 north of there)? or any of the fabulous indian restaurants? next time get the tube or cab east to brick lane, fantasic selection of indian cuisine.

    stay out of chains or anything in very touristy area, they suck.

  58. Re:What's the fuss about? by hackstraw · · Score: 3, Interesting

    We want to hide our ID from anyone's eyes who has not identified himself as a lawful officer on duty. With RFID it is hardly possible.

    Well said.

    I don't have much of a problem showing an ID to someone that asks for it, and I know why and what they are looking for and who they are. But being surveilled to the point that they have a complete ID on me with no physical intervention is a little scary.

    Its not too tough to track someone today after the fact with such things as CC receipts, easypass things, witnesses, phone records, etc. But these things take a warrant, again after the fact. Being criminally investigated in realtime, err, no thank you.

    How does this work? If you treat someone like a child, they will act like a child. If you treat someone like a criminal, they will be a good upstanding citizen? I don't think so.

    If the feds want to update the passports with electronic technology, use barcodes or something. Actually, the more I think about it, it might be much more stealth to have a reveresed engineered passport RFID tag to say whatever you want. I don't see how this would be illegal because its not fraud or falsifying a document because if anyone asks for the passport, give it to them, but drive by scanning, I'm Homer Simpson and my ssn is 078-05-1120. Thanks for asking.

  59. Re:Law Enforcement - RFID RANGE by lcsjk · · Score: 2, Informative
    Last year I worked on designing a longer range RFID for a custom project at a University. Here is some info on RFID.

    The simplest RFID is the magnetic foil in the "don't steal me" package in stores. It has no information, but just notes that "I'm here" by absorbing some power from the transmitter.

    The "smart" RFID with information to send back, receives power from the external interrogator transmitter, turns on, decodes up to 128 bits (privacy) from the incoming signal to determine if it should respond, reads some or all of its memory, and responds as requested. The amount of memory is not limited, so fairly detailed pictures could be there. Units that turn on like a radio receiving signals need a battery. They can potentially transmit longer distances since they contain their own transmitter.

    Circuits on the device must protect from too much received power and turn off until the power decreases.

    The range is based on the frequency and the size of the receiving and /transmitting coil along with the method of operation. Passive types modulate the received signal by drawing power from it. Larger antennas are needed for longer distances, and that is the reason for the big antennas you walk through next to doors in stores. Units with their own battery can transmit further, but are limited by battery life.

    There is obviously a lot more to this, but I just wanted to give a little more information.

  60. Overwhelm the system? by YouHaveSnail · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Maybe a way to deal with RFID is to take a page from Microsoft's playbook. We should "embrace and extend" RFID.

    Embrace it. Cover yourself in so many RFID devices that a scanner simply can't read them all reliably. I have no sense of how many that might be, but it would seem technically difficult to scan several thousand devices all at once. At a nickle per, you're really only talking about a couple hundred bucks even if you have to buy the devices yourself. With stores like Walmart essentially giving them away, you might not even have to do that. Sew them into your jacket or something so that when someone scans you, they're greeted by a cacophony of garbage signals.

    Extend it. It won't be long before someone figures out how to either a) make their own RFID devices or b) modify existing ones. And there will be a window of opportunity before Congress makes doing so illegal. If you can make a chip that matches another, you can appear to be someone else. Or to be in two places at once. Or to teleport across a store or a country in a heartbeat.

    Now, I certainly wouldn't suggest tampering with a device in a passport, of course, but the possibilities at Walmart are pretty interesting.

    Even if you just buy legit devices from existing manufacturers, RFID can and will be used to consumers' benefit. RFID chips could be hidden by investigative journalists in products returned to stores and then used to prove that the store turns around and sells the item as "new" again. Not a big deal for a book, perhaps, but interesting when the item is, say, a car or a mattress or a rump roast.

  61. You are a very, very, very stupid person. by Fantastic+Lad · · Score: 4, Interesting
    People who still believe in the illusion of 'terrorists' at this point are being willfully blind.

    The 'terrorists' upon whose actions all of this insane police state nonsense is based were funded and manipulated by both the U.S. and Israel specifically because the psychopaths in power want to stay in power so that they can have all the money, power, sex and cocaine. Having to work for a living, or serve in the military, is scary for them, and so they choose instead to trick all the trusting citizens into believing in 'terrorists'.

    Anybody who looks at the details clearly will see the manipulation.

    Remember the 'terrorist' passport they, 'found' on top of the smoking remains of the WTC?

    That is just one of a hundred loose threads, and if it doesn't get your brain ticking, then you are either sleeping or dead, and you richly deserve the hell you are seeing rise around you.

    "Oooh. But Conspiracies don't exist! It's impossible for a large number of people to keep a secret!"

    Yeah? What the heck does that prove? NEWSFLASH: Conspirators do not NEED to keep secrets when the populace has been brainwashed into constantly looking the other way whenever a piece of evidence pops up.

    People would rather fight and yell and argue in favor of the psychopathic manipulator rather than deal with the truly awful possibility that they are being raped. This, in fact, is exactly the reason psychopaths are so dangerous. Normal people are hardwired into certain behavioral traits which make them excellent marks for this sort of manipulation.

    Any 'terrorist' who uses RFID passports to blow up Americans will be doing so with the consent of the military industrial complex, and your spreading of fear is making those jerks giddy with the joy of a mind-job successfully executed.

    I have to live in this world, too, and imbeciles like you are contributing to the misery smart people also have to deal with. Arrogant? Gee, sorry. I'll just quietly go off to a barbed wire camp so you don't have to feel like an idiot.


    -FL

  62. Don't buy it by deblau · · Score: 2, Informative

    I do believe RFID will make passports harder to forge. That seems clear enough. But why broadcast your name and address? Why not broadcast something like the passport number? Without looking at the info on the inside, they may be able to track you by number, but not get your name, address, or other personally identifying information without the kind of work that they'd have to do right now to get that information. In addition, countries could store databases of just the passport numbers that they want to watch (or pass thru), without the associate personal data. Everyone not in the database gets the standard interview questions.

    --
    This post expresses my opinion, not that of my employer. And yes, IAAL.
  63. Dangerous? by Steffan · · Score: 2, Interesting

    In many countries in which I have lived, as a U.S. citizen it is not always in your best interests to broadcast the fact. This technology could give potential adversaries information on who you are, and where you are, making it easier to target Americans, even those who are not acting / dressing like it. Potentially, it could even be used to track you in a crowd, etc., making possible more targeted muggings / robberies / kidnappings.

  64. Easier to Forge by MonkeyCookie · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It seems to me that it will eventually make it easier to forge Passports.

    People are lazy and cheap.

    The government doesn't want to have to pay a bunch of agents to look at passports and agents don't want to have to look at passports all day long. I predict that with RFID chips embedded in passports, there will just be devices that you wave your passport near and they will check to see its validity. There will be a security guard nearby to jump on anyone that fails the scan, but nobody will be actually looking at the passports.

    Along come Mr. Forger. He no longer needs to concentrate on making special paper, holigrams, and the like: all he needs to do is make it look decent and put a good RFID chip inside.

    The only problem: where to get some valid RFID numbers. That's easy! Just hang out at the airport for a few hours with an RFID scanning device, brushing against people and scanning their passports. Then take home the numbers and create some RFID tags with them.

    This wouldn't work as well if a picture popped up on a security guard's screen so that they can verify the holder of the passport looked like what they had on file, but...people are lazy.

  65. Re:ID... by ProfFalcon · · Score: 2, Informative

    RFID is sending out a number only. It is the serial number of your passport. The reader would then have to look this number up in a database for any info. RFID does not and can not send "name, age, photo and home address".

    Despite my knowing that an RFID is sending only the serial number (and only for a few inches and no further), I am still against this. It provides little, if any, benefit and opens up additional levels of exploitation.

    With these new, so-called "safeguards" in place, the customs agents could get to trust that when they see their database show up with the same information as is on the passport that they are looking at the proper person. It offers nothing but a false sense of security. False senses of security are often exploited.

    --
    Simply stating [Citation Needed] does not automatically make you insightful or brilliant.
  66. Re:ID... by Xoro · · Score: 2, Informative

    RFID is sending out a number only. It is the serial number of your passport. The reader would then have to look this number up in a database for any info. RFID does not and can not send "name, age, photo and home address".

    FTFA:

    The RFID passport works like a high-tech version of the children's game "Marco Polo." A reader speaks out the equivalent of "Marco" on a designated frequency. The chip then channels that radio energy and echoes back with an answer.

    But instead of simply saying "Polo," the 64 Kb chip will say the passport holder's name, address, date and place of birth, and send along a digital photograph.

    While none of the information on the chip is encrypted, the chip does also broadcast a digital signature that verifies the chip itself was created by the government. Security experts said the U.S. government decided not to encrypt the data because of the risks involved in sharing the method of decryption with other countries.

    That's not at all what it sound like to me.

    --
    Kill, Tux, kill!
  67. Tell the truth by Dire+Bonobo · · Score: 2, Insightful
    > 4. Say you're from Canada

    Don't. It just gives Americans an international reputation for being liars, which just makes the situation worse.

    Most foreigners genuinely like Americans, even while genuinely disliking the US government. Express sympathy for any US government foreign policy blunders in the area, ask them what you can do to help, and listen to the response. People love to be listened to, and love to be agreed with.

    It's amazing how far a little politeness and tact will take you. Enough of that from enough people, and some of the international bad opinion of American tourists might well go away. Or, we could convince the rest of the world we're liars, as well as all the other things they already believe.

    While it may be virtually a national passtime to take the easy way out that helps in the short term while building up long-term problems, it's no better an idea here than it is anywhere else.