Gambas 1.0 Release Candidate Available

raindog2 writes "After two and a half years of development, Gambas has become the first Visual Basic-style environment for Linux to enter release candidate status. Anyone who has been frustrated by a lack of production-quality free RAD environments should give it a try."

Comments

No mono or dotgnu?

[gtrubetskoy]

Kinda curious why they don't base it on mono and/or dotgnu but have their own interpreter.

Re:No mono or dotgnu?

[Anonymous Coward]

Probably because it's been in development for two and a half years, and mono and/or dotgnu didn't exist then.

Seems quite self evident to me.

Re:No mono or dotgnu?

[lisaparratt]

As others have said it's old. Possibly also because there are people who don't think .net is the answer to every question.

Re:No mono or dotgnu?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why? There are quite a few Free virtual machines out there, out of which Mono and dotgnu are not nearly the best.

So why? Because mono is over-hyped?

Re:No mono or dotgnu?

[Pxtl]

Either way, they've done the typical OSS thing: copied MS, circa 1997. Wow, we've managed to replicate Visual Basic 4. Meanwhile, .NET Architect is out there, using a powerful multi-language VM instead of a BASIC interpreter.

Well, who knows. Maybe when Parrot takes off they'll move over to that, so they can have a real OSS theme to it.

Re:No mono or dotgnu?

[civilizedINTENSITY]

1997? Oh come now. Its all about dynamic typing. In the next ten(?) years OSS and MS will both finally arrive at the peak of programming languages: VisualLisp.

Re:No mono or dotgnu?

[stanmann]

VB 4 was the pinacle of the MS RAD environment design. after that they went with the locked window no overlap style with no desktop space.

Re:No mono or dotgnu?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, imho the real future is implicit static typing with well-designed coersion and good polymorphism in the standard types, but that's just me.

foo := bar(baz)

both instantiates a bar and defines the variable placeholder foo as of class bar. This implicitness could be overridden with C-style syntax.

Re:No mono or dotgnu?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're basically looking for ocaml's type inference engine with auto-instantiation slapped on.

Re:No mono or dotgnu?

[tntguy]

.net is the answer to: ?xis sulp ruof si tahW

Re:No mono or dotgnu?

[Anonymous Coward]

+1 Funny.

Re:No mono or dotgnu?

[LWATCDR]

Well since Visual Basic.net is a bit of a bust going back to what worked well may not be such a bad thing

Re:No mono or dotgnu?

[Kalani]

You laugh, but I've actually been working on a project I was going to call "Visual Lisp" (now B -- do the formatting yourself and you'll get the [bad] pun).

Here is a screenshot of a program written in "Visual Lisp" that shows a simple expression editor control on a simple form. There's a system for declaring GUIs (and event-handlers) in terms of S-expressions and everything. Depending on the programmer's preference, those GUIs can be shown on a Pocket PC, a desktop, or through a web browser (ie: rendered as HTML).

Oh, and my "Visual Lisp" interpreter also supports ActiveX controls.

Re:No mono or dotgnu?

[anomalous cohort]

You laugh, but Dr. Scheme sounds like a close fit to Visual Lisp.

I sense...

[palad1]

A great disturbance in the Force.
It was like a million voices crying out in unison, then suddenly silenced.

Thank god the project page is already slashdotted.

Re:I sense...

[raindog2]

I submitted it to Developers, having no idea it would end up on the main page. Thank god(s) I didn't link to the Gambas wiki on my company's colo box (which is getting a lot of traffic now anyway.)

Re:I sense...

[palad1]

I had the oppportunity to read more about the project page, looks like good work, although I don't really understand /agree with the choosen language : a VB clone.

Re:I sense...

[gfxguy]

Don't know much about VB - looks a lot like RealBasic.

Re:I sense...

[raindog2]

I see two main reasons for making a GUI BASIC environment under Linux:

(1) The majority of in-house, ad-hoc applications at most businesses I've visited, "enterprise software standards" notwithstanding, are in VB, and are obstacles to rolling out Linux desktops. Gambas only alleviates this somewhat but it does help.

(2) It lowers the bar for newbie programmers and those who just want to do a little automation on their Linux box. I owe my career to the fact that my Commodore came with BASIC 20 years ago, even though the majority of my paid work has never been in BASIC.

Finally, I think a lot of people diss BASIC just because it's cool to diss BASIC; Gambas bears no resemblance to 10 PRINT "I R L33T" 20 GOTO 10, and neither does any modern BASIC that I'm aware of. And Gambas is definitely no "VB clone" except in the fact that it has a graphical IDE where you can press F5 to compile and run your app.

Re:Nothing to see here - OT

[msh104]

well, it might ease live for people who want to switch from windows to linux and own tons of vb apps...

Hmmmm

[black6host]

Kylix doesn't count? Although the *free* version did have some limitations it was quite possible to develop software in a RAD based environment using Kylix.

Granted, neither version (free or pay) took off quite the way some would have liked but all the same, let's give credit where credit is due.

Re:Hmmmm

[landoltjp]

I thought Kylix was a brilliant IDE, but I'm biased because I am a long-time Delphi developer.

Even if Borland, in its decision (?) to discontinue support or development of Kylix, decides to distribute it as Open Source, I don't think that there would then be a huge surge in community support of the product. The primary reason for this is that the IDE, Component libraries, and Supoprted language is Object Pascal, and there's not much Pascal coding done on Linux these days.

Mind you, Kylix would be a great starting point for a Linux C++ Builder. Let the porting begin

Re:Hmmmm

[byolinux]

Was Kylix actually free software? I've just tried to find a copy on their website, and although there's an 'Open' version, it doesn't seem to be free software, just a gratis download.

However, things may have changed.

Re:Hmmmm

[thedarkstorm]

Yes it was and is Free Software. However with the Open version you are required to GPL any software you compile with it. they have a dual license model, very similar to mySQL

Re:Hmmmm

[raindog2]

You might have been able to legally download Kylix without paying for it (if you filled out a form, etc...) but it wasn't free software.

Gambas could pretty much be included with any Linux distribution (even Debian...) meaning that after 15 years, computer neophytes could once again be exposed to programming in a simple, non-threatening way without having to go and buy something extra.

I think I'm as excited by that prospect as by the ability to easily port my clients' VB projects.

Re:Hmmmm

[AbbyNormal]

In my experience, Kylix could have been a huge success, but was crippled (free version). When the first version came out, I immediately tried it out, having recently done a lot of work with Borland C++.

I was extremely disspointed with the problems I faced with installing it on my old RH system.

I have NOT tried Gambas yet, but from the screenshots/information on the page, it appears there are a ton of toolbox objects to use/program with.

Gambas, Rock on!

Re:Hmmmm

[aled]

And what makes you think you can port any VB projects. Let me blow your dream (I love this part :-).
From the FAQ:

Is Gambas compatible with Visual Basic?

No, and it will never be!

Fortunately, there are many similarities, but do not expect to take your old Visual Basic code and run it on Gambas without any change.

You can go the troubleshooting page to find some examples of the differences between the two languages.

See also: Differences from VB

Re:Hmmmm

[raindog2]

There will obviously be custom proprietary components used in VB projects that are difficult to duplicate in Gambas and under Linux, but I'm on my third major VB application port right now and it's really been a piece of cake so far, knock on wood. Being able to run any Linux program on a pipe makes it easier than you'd imagine to duplicate some pretty esoteric functionality provided by random third-party VB controls.

Those who don't think they're up to the porting can always wait for KBasic, which will not be free software but it'll still be pretty cheap (and, it claims, 100% VB compatible.)

Re:Hmmmm

[DCMonkey]

No it wasn't and isn't.

The ambiguity of the term "free" strikes again. Though to be fair, the OP did explicitly link to gnu.org ...

Re:Hmmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

I use Kylix 3 Open Edition on Slackware 10.

K3O is rather nicer than Delphi 2 (which is what I use on Windows) though the IDE is a bit sluggish. The only significant-to-me omission is a built-in styled-text editor component, which the full version also lacks. The full version adds database components I have no use for.

If nothing else K3O is an adequate stopgap until Lazarus is ready.

Re:Hmmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

Kylix is dead. Some of Borland's management have their head too far up their asses to actually admit openly that it is dead, but it is. So is C++Builder.
Too bad Kylix wasn't supported by the company the way it should have been. Then it would have been done right, instead of doing it wrong and then blaming the product for slow sales.
Borland is dead.

Wow

[linux_warp]

This actually looks like a very impressive and well put together program. The screenshot looks great (http://gambas.sourceforge.net/2004-09-06.png).

And according to their website "As the graphical user interface is implemented as a component, Gambas will be able to be independent of any toolkit ! You will be able to write a program, and choose the toolkit later : GTK+, Qt, etc." - so there is no toolkit bias either which is a big bonus.

Re:Wow

[Tim C]

The screenshot looks like an explosion in a window factory to me...

Re:Wow

[Spicerun]

"so there is no toolkit bias either which is a big bonus."

Yet you can't install, compile, or run it without Qt. I would say that makes it very toolkit biased.

--Qt/KDE Free and proud of it!

Re:Wow

[drfreak]

That is because the author used Qt to write the first toolkit interface for it. From the info I've been reading on the site though, anyone can write a toolkit interface/binding for it. If you are anti-Qt, why not help with a GTK+ interface?

Re:Wow

[raindog2]

In fact, someone is working on it already:

http://wiki.gnulinex.org/gambas/6

Scroll to the bottom (and use Babelfish or Google if you don't know enough Spanish.)

Daniel has already written three Gambas components (sockets, compression, and most recently XML) so I have every reason to believe he's serious about the Gtk one. I have seen posts by him on mail.gnome.org asking for help on this issue or that, so he is apparently well into coding it.

Also, you certainly can compile, install and run Gambas without Qt... you just can't write graphical programs or use the IDE without it (yet!) For example, while I wouldn't really recommend it given the existence of php, modperl, j2ee et al., you can write CGI programs using Gambas.

Re:Wow

[Anonymous Coward]

Ya, the screen shot shows that the coder is making all of the variables module level and public. That's all we need is more cobol coders using VB but now on Linux too.

Fast

[Daengbo]

Wow this project has matured fast. I stumbled on it ??a year and a half ago?? when it was still in its infancy. Every once in a while I visit it, expecting it to be dead like so many other projects that I try to follow, but I am always suprised by new material on the front pages.

Congrats to the Gambas developers for being such work horses! I am impressed.

Scripting?

[aero6dof]

Anyone who has been frustrated by a lack of production-quality free RAD environments

Nope, I have many available RAD environments which lack production-quality.

But seriously, what about Ruby, Python, and Perl. It seems like there have been plenty of RAD environments available for free.

Re:Scripting?

[palndron]

Those are languages, this is a language + rad environment.

Just out of curiosity, what are these rad environments for these languages?

Re:Scripting?

[emidln]

Python uses the native RAD environment. On Mac OS X, it uses Xcode. On systems with QT it uses QTDesigner+KDevelop. On Windows, there are several projects that build windows interfaces (Glade2 if you go the GTK+2 route.) including a commercial Visual Studio plugin. On GTK, you of course have Glade. (Glade2 for GTK+2.)

Personally, I don't think you need a RAD tool. Python + An Editor works very well for me. Then again, I use easygui (and some custom additions) which is an abstraction of Tk with Python. AquaTK is simply beautiful.

As to the other languages, I'm pretty sure they all hook into at least KDevelop and Glade. I don't know about Xcode and Visual Studio though.

Re:Scripting?

[Joe Tie.]

For python, one of my favorites has always been Boa. It's starting to show it's age in Linux though, using a version of WxWidgets best compiled to use gtk1.

Kylix

[tverbeek]

Gambas has become the first Visual Basic-style environment for Linux to enter release candidate status.

Unless you count Kylix. It uses Pascal or C++ instead of Basic, but it's definitely a VB-style environment.

Re:Kylix

[Anonymous Coward]

Pacsal ? C++ ?? Ha. HaHa. HAhahahahahahahahahahah

Re:Kylix

[AndroidCat]

You forgot BASIC, which trumps them both for goofy laughs.

Did they have fun...

[Anonymous Coward]

porting msvbvm60.dll?

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

My wish...

[bogaboga]

...is that someone experienced now does the right thing; that is: Slap a database engine onto Gambas, put everything including documentation, examples of sample code for particular problems, PDF creation on the fly using available tools and all dependencies required into ONE application or file. Various components to be installed can be selected at installation time. Then announce that they have M$ Access killer called GambasDB. I will then immediately jump onto the band wagon. I wonder why it has not happened before.

Re:My wish...

[Anonymous Coward]

It looks like they already have some kind of DB integration http://gambas.sourceforge.net/2003-05-05.png

Re:My wish...

[not_a_product_id]

actually, I'm currently taking over support for an Access application so right now I'd just like to see Access killed. It is to application development what dog shit is to sandwich fillings.

(Would be a very good idea to get smaller businesses to look at Linux too.)

Re:My wish...

[deuce868]

Ok, who reincarnated Clippy as a sea creature?

Re:My wish...

[aled]

Firebird is an excelent choice for an Access killer. Just needs a nice graphical frontend for final users on it.

Re:My wish...

[Espectr0]

Try Rekall, which is now dual licensed as GPL too

Re:My wish...

[raindog2]

There's no reporting engine yet, though people are working on one, but one of its database drivers is for an embedded, serverless database (SQLite), and I think it's only a matter of time before someone does what you describe.

I am pretty sure only a couple hundred people had ever heard of Gambas before today, but that has changed. Of course the site is toast but maybe some of them will remember and look again tomorrow...

Kylix...

[Kenja]

How can it be the first when Kylix predates it by quite a bit?

Re:Kylix...

[mrjb]

Ok, I've looked at Kylix myself and hear everyone whining about kylix being first here, but it's not the same thing. Kylix has a native compiler which only compiles to 80x86 platform. Gambas surely goes beyond Kylix in terms of portability. I'm probably going to be flamed for this, but I think it would be really if it would also allow making windows executables. Users consider a JVM hard to install, and writing true cross-platform C++ (something more than 'hello world') is still quite complex. Ability to make windows executables could make it the development platform of choice for many Windows 'developclickers' that wish to also develop for Linux.

Why Basic

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess its main purpose wouldn't be to help VB programers porting their apps, so wouldn't it be better to use another modern scripting language like Python?

Re:I don't like it

[Daengbo]

So, the ability to script KDE from bash was a bad idea, too?

isn't that an oxy-moron?!

[mbonig]

I never thought I'd see "Visual Basic" and "production level RAD tool" in the same summary.

Re:isn't that an oxy-moron?!

[feloneous cat]

As someone who has been monitoring the quality of software production (using our overhead satellite base station - don't bother looking for us, we cleverly painted stars on it - saved a buttload of $$$), I can tell you that it is not an oxy-moron.

After all, a certain company in Redmond has been using VB RAD tools for years...

Re:isn't that an oxy-moron?!

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no '-' in Oxymoron. Moron.

Glade?

[rwebb]

What about the Glade toolkit? Granted, it's not "Visual Basic" but it does help take care of the donkey work in getting the user interface setup.

Re:Glade?

[Anonymous Coward]

Also Qt Designer

What about the Visual Editor project on Eclipse?

[Ikeya]

Maybe the Visual Editor isn't in release status? (I think it is, but I'm not sure.) But this definately isn't the only nor the first visual editor project. Check it out if you're interested in a RAD platform with graphical elements very similar to Visual Basic, etc. It uses Java and not BASIC, but I don't see that as a bad thing.
Oh yeah... it's also open source.

The Eclipse Visual Editor Project

Screenshots.

[haeger]

HERE.

Seems to be the most popular thing about any new release, even though most claim to prefer a CLI.

.haeger

Re:I don't like it

[gregarican]

Does that mean that all of the IT wannabes will have to wait for the Microsoft Access for Linux port? [/joke]

Re:I don't like it

[Anonymous Coward]

What do you care? You can always switch to NetBSD or HURD or Plan 9 if too many "idiots" start doing useful things on Linux and diminishing your 1337-ness.

Kylix = Object Pascal and C++

[landoltjp]

I was incorrect above. Kylix supoprts development in both Object Pascal and C++. Borland, if you're not going to sell it or support it, then give it to us and we'll take it from here!

Page won't load

[stratjakt]

Anyone have some details on this? How visual basic-like is it? Any .NET/mono integration? Cross-compilation features?

Something for linux that's close enough to VB to make porting effortless would be a dream come true, and our company could move away from MSFT. Of course, some customers will always wan't VB clients and SQL Server backends, because they're asshats.

The free edition of Sybase for linux perked eyebrows among the PHB's around here, and I was actually give time to set a box up to prove that it could, indeed be a drop in replacement for a SQL Server backend, and I impressed them somewhat showing how much easier it would be to maintain over a crappy dial-up connection..

Now it's all these bazillion client apps I want rid of. We're looking hard at mono and C# for new development, but we have oodles of legacy VB6 code to maintain, and nowhere near the manpower to port all of it. Hell, we don't even have time to port it to .NET yet. By we I mean me since I have no real help here. Fuck it, I haven't even had time to replace all the old RDO code in a lot of the crap.

Someone post some details. Could Sybase+gambas be a drop-in replacement for VB6+SQL Server?

Re:Page won't load

[raindog2]

I'm surprised it got slashdotted so fast. Anyway, it compiles to its own pseudo-code not unlike the first 3 or 4 revisions of VB.... nothing saying someone couldn't write a compiler from that pseudo-code to CLR/Mono or Parrot or the JVM, but no one's really started talking about that seriously yet.

The language is about as strict as VB is when you use Option Explicit, and wasn't built as a clone of VB, so while we have a Perl script to convert form layouts over (which I wrote, and which I will integrate with the IDE when I finish my PCRE component for Gambas soon) converting code is still a manual process, and there are a lot of differences though it's still BASIC. I will continue to work on conversion tools, though.

Finally, there is no FreeTDS (Sybase/MSSQL) database driver yet, but I expect that to follow eventually.... I would be writing one myself except I keep moving people off of MSSQL and Sybase and onto MySQL.

I've only contributed a little code to Gambas, I just maintain Mandrake packages and the wiki from which the documentation is generated.

Re:Page won't load

[danheskett]

Just curious, when you move people from MSSQL to MySQL, what do you do about stored procedures, views, mutli-database transactions, and point-in-time rollbacks?

I'd love to move some projects off of SQL-server and into a MySQL environment, but these really are sticking points for me!

(and like 50 zillon others)

Re:Page won't load

[Anonymous Coward]

What I usually do is look at PostgreSQL instead (though I'm not sure about the multi-db transactions and whether or not they've finished implementing point-in-time rollbacks (it was in beta last I checked)).

Re:Page won't load

[Some Pig!]

Someone post some details. Could Sybase+gambas be a drop-in replacement for VB6+SQL Server?

As an ASE fanboy, that sounds good to me.

Remember, though, that Sybase is releasing PowerBuilder for Linux next year (they've already released the PFC under LGPL).

Re:Page won't load

[Anonymous Coward]

Quick bits:

- it is not fully compatible with VB, but it isn't too difficult to port things; there's even a gambas program that can "gambalize" VB source.
- it is an interpreter, no compiler yet.
- it has net and database modules ready.
- no .net/mono
- no cross compilation (interpreter!)

So far, it is good enough to lure some VB developers to try fiddling with Linux.

Re:Page won't load

[hoggoth]

> when you move from MSSQL to MySQL, what do you do about

We use PostGreSQL.

Re:I don't like it

[slash-tard]

Should everyone program in assembler?

How about in C, should everyone use just the standard libraries and nothing else?

Forget all the included libraries in KDE/Gnome, if you dont know how to program your own GUI you shouldnt be doing any GUI programming.

Re:I don't like it

[Anonymous Coward]

Linux will one day appeal to the masses. When that day comes, would you rather have these people coding in C?

Re:I don't like it

[samael]

And the vast numbers of people that have been able to throw a few things together to make their lives immeasurably easier shouldn't have been able to?

Nobody is saying that people should be constructing enterprise tools with no experience - VB is typically used as a nice interface for some data/processes that would otherwise be a nightmare to bring together, or require actual CS people.

Kylix was pretty awful

[HBI]

Limited distro support, slower than molasses, and uses something like Winelib apparently to run the IDE.

I don't think the community would do much with it given all of that.

VB-style GUI design

[PiGuy]

Unfortunately, this IDE seems to suffer from the same horrible method of GUI design as VB (judging from the screenshot), whereby one draws components on a form, thus specifying the widgets' absolute coordinates. This is all good and well until you decide to make the form resizable. Then all hell breaks loose: none of the widgets move unless you explicitly change their coordinates. I was forced to write my own geometry manager, in VB, to overcome this problem in a clean way.

Otherwise, this looks like a very good product for a company looking to switch to Unix, but wanting to retain compatibility with all their VB scripts (like the one I work at). Of course, porting the scripts to a better language (*cough*Python*cough*) would be the best solution, but management just won't hear of it :/.

Re:VB-style GUI design

[sapped]

This is all good and well until you decide to make the form resizable. Then all hell breaks loose: none of the widgets move unless you explicitly change their coordinates.

It has been some time since I last used VB, but I seem to recall (Delphi definately has this) that you could "tie" components to the form so that they would grow and shrink as the form resizes. You could also specify upper and lower limits for the width and height of each component you placed on the form. I found the Delphi IDE to be far superior to anything found on the Linux front. Now, if only we could convince the Borland idiots not to annoy the developers with their mindless management style then we might have something going again.

Re:VB-style GUI design

[stratjakt]

I was forced to write my own geometry manager, in VB, to overcome this problem in a clean way.

I wrote one in C. It all depends what you want to do when a form resizes. By default, the controls stay where they are. That's the proper behaviour for many applications.

With one of our apps, we (not me but my dumbass PHB) wanted everything to scale with the size of the form. We used third party controls from VS (now ComponentOne, I believe) called vsElastic and vsElasticLight, but they started to piss me off with the wonky way it would choose to scale the fonts (one label would scale to one font, another of the exact same size would somehow get a differnent one), hence I wrote my own.

But like I said, for many apps, it's not a problem. When I resize my browser or word processor, the widgets don't scale with the window size. A "for each control in form.controls" loop isn't the end of the world and would solve most folk's problems.

In either case, if you're writing everything by hand you have to write your own geometry manager anyways.

Porting everything takes time that many people simply don't have.

Re:VB-style GUI design

[Cutie Pi]

I don't know what version of VB you were using, but at least since Visual Studio.NET 2002, you can fix the component's coordinates and/or size to the form's dimensions.

Re:VB-style GUI design

[DelawareBoy]

In VS Studio.NET, you can always use Docking to resize controls based upon the size of the form. So, when you maximize / modify the size of the form, the textboxes / listboxes / whatever changes to go along with it.

It's a bit tricky to work on, but it does the job (or at least as far as I need the job done).

Re:VB-style GUI design

[raindog2]

Recent Gambas versions do have container widgets that automatically arrange their children, a la Java /Tk/Gtk/etc. I do still find myself putting code in the resize event pretty often though.

Re:VB-style GUI design

[kc8kgu]

This has been available in VB for years. Its known as anchoring a control.

As for horrible method of gui design, I must strongly disagree with you there. I've noticed most programers actually perform better when giving the visual stimulation of looking at the GUI before writing much backend code, It helps them think through the use cases before they start to code. And you must also remember that its meant to be a rapid development tool. Its a lot easier to drag and drop and click then to type.

Re:VB-style GUI design

[kraut]

http://vb2py.sourceforge.net/index.htm - automagically convert VB to Python. Haven't tried it, since I haven't touched VB for years, but it could be a dream come true ;)

Re:VB-style GUI design

[AbbyNormal]

I am a VB developer (legacy support). While, that is a fairly major problem, that is NOT the critical stop gap for this product. This is amazing, because they have complete control over the code. If it is a problem, I'm sure you could write a bug up and submit it...It will most likely be fixed. This would NEVER be possible with the real VB.

On the other hand this might be a fantastic opportunity for Linux and even Open Source. VB has always been an extremely easy language to learn and utilize. Simply hobbyist like to write it in to create fast/quick programs for their own means. Now there is really no excuse to not start writing for Linux.

VB, while it is an extreme pain to support, when/if developers do not utilize some of the best practices, it can be an extremely quick and easy prototyping tool.

While many/most would argue that VB should not be used in a development environment, most do not have the pleasure of telling the boss: "Yes, we're going to re-write all of our legacy code in Y language". If it ain't broke, don't fix it attitude + "Time is Money" is a huge factor in development (thus, my incredibly long post on Slashdot).

I for one am thrilled that something like this has been released on Linux. I am definetly going to give it a try. Rock on Gambas!

Re:VB-style GUI design

[Slime-dogg]

.NET allows you to use panels, docks, and fills to accomplish resizing. The font sizes don't change unless you explicitly set them, though.

If you want a button that doesn't move from the center of the form, and doesn't move from a specific location above the base of the form (or the top), you'd anchor it to three of the sides. If you want a button that scales in size, you'd set anchors to all four sides. If you want a number of components aligned on the right to scale and whatever, you'd use a panel, set it to fill the right, then add your components to the panel.

.NET is a bit different from Delphi, but it's not all that bad. VB6, on the other hand, sucks. I once had to use resizer controls to ensure that certains elements grew and others did not in an application, but I hit a control limit. I think that there's a max limit of 80 controls per form, or something like that.

Re:VB-style GUI design

[Schnapple]

It has been some time since I last used VB, but I seem to recall (Delphi definately has this) that you could "tie" components to the form so that they would grow and shrink as the form resizes.

I think the only way to do this in VB6 was to recalculate the size of the form when resized and change the location coordinates of the controls appropriately.

Could be wrong though - never was a hardcore VB6 junkie.

Re:VB-style GUI design

[caudron]

but I seem to recall [...] that you could "tie" components to the form so that they would grow and shrink as the form resizes.

In VB6 and earlier, it was not possible to do this, but as of VB.NET it is.

Re:VB-style GUI design

[PiGuy]

This was with VB 6. I wasn't even supposed to have it installed (I had to borrow it from a co-worker who doesn't even know the language), despite the fact that I needed it to get my job done. I'm glad to hear that proper geometry management has finally been added, albeit more than a decade after it was available in most other GUI environments.

what about VBX (ok OCX, fine DLL)

[narsiman]

component based development was the important reason for VB's survival. Before we get onto the robustness jokes, is there a plan to implement something similar ? I did RTFA but the site is crawling under /. attack currently.

Re:what about VBX (ok OCX, fine DLL)

[AndroidCat]

Creating VBX/ActiveX components for VB (and others) is a good market for small companies and single developers. If you needed a little widget to do something, you could probably find someone either selling it cheap or giving it away (and selling the source cheap).

Of course, the idea that developers might make money from developing might seem odd to some.

Interesting

[gustgr]

In portuguese the word gambá means skunk :-) Well, it is VB-like after all.

Re:Interesting

[raindog2]

Well, in Spanish it means "shrimp", and the Gambas mascot (for every free software project must have a mascot...) is a blue cartoon shrimp. I don't know what message to take away from that, though...

Re:Interesting

[chill]

And in Spanish, "gambas" means "shrimp" as in seafood.

-Charles

Re:Interesting

[aysa]

Well, in Hebrew means "Paprika", letting me think
though the project might look nice from the outside,
it is actually empty inside.

However in Italian "Gamba" means "leg". Therefore
I lean to think the project is probably "going" somewhere.

Sadly, in Spanish means "Shrimp", so if it is going somewhere
that has to be the bottom of the sea.

Seriously

Re:Interesting

[TuringTest]

It actually comes from Spanish, where Gamba means prawn.

Re:Interesting

[CerebusUS]

Woot VB PRAWN!

Hot shrimping action in KDE at last.

Re:Interesting

[pcardoso]

It means Prawn in Portuguese too. Gamba and Gambá (notice the acute accent) are different words in Portuguese.

Gambá comes from brazillian portuguese probably, as I've never even heard the term, and I'm a native portuguese speaker (from Portugal).

Re:Interesting

[Perky_Goth]

Gambas in Portuguese, as spoken in Portugal, as opposed to slang in Brasil, is shrimp.

Re:Interesting

[rsborg]

In portuguese the word gambá means skunk :-) Well, it is VB-like after all.

Well, given the screenshots I've seen are in French, we should probably assume the French word, which means "prawns"... délicieux :-)...

Re:Interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

in portuguese gambas means "shrimp".

Re:Interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

Gambas in Portuguese, as spoken in Portugal, as opposed to slang in Brasil, is shrimp.

"Slang in Brasil" -- very funny. "Gambá" is no more slang in Brasil than "Kangaroo" is slang in Australia.

Re:Interesting

[Perky_Goth]

i dunnow, it's not known here

Re:I don't like it

[Anonymous Coward]

And don't comment any code either, if it was hard to write it should be hard to read. While you're at it you should take away all the user's terminals as well and just give them a big stack of greenbar printout with the data you think they need.

Re:I don't like it

[Anonymous Luddite]

>> This leads to bad projects and code by people who had no business getting into this sort of thing

But it'll look nice...

in all seriousness, this looks interesting. I'm going to pull it down and build it. Object oriented and extensible is very cool.

Elitist

[Anonymous Coward]

Idiots will always do bad things, that's why they're idiots. The tool isn't the problem, usage is the problem. An idiot using C or ASM is much more dangerous than someone using VB.

Other good free RAD in development...

[fabien]

If you prefer Pascal, take a look at Lazarus.

Still, I continue to think that Glade, and especially libglade, are the way to go in term of separations of UI and code.

Re:Other good free RAD in development...

[fireboy1919]

Glade is good, but not as flexible as it could be. It's a bit of a pain to port glade apps to the web, for example.

So now there's wxglade which is making some headway, (it uses the ultra-portable wxwidgets).

GNUStep

[Anonymous Coward]

ProjectCenter

empower idiots to do bad things

[nuggz]

Any tool can do this.
An election gives idiots the power the choose their government.
The internet gives idiots the ability to broadcast their views.

Most tools can be used in either good or bad ways. In a free society I wouldn't argue for the arbitrary restriction of a tool that has a negligible downside.

Re:empower idiots to do bad things

[Anonymous Coward]

The internet gives idiots the ability to broadcast their views.

I think anyone who reads slashdot already understands this all too well.

Re:What about the Visual Editor project on Eclipse

[advocate_one]

that leaves you trapped in the "Java trap"... you can't build truly free applications with it.

Feh...KDE

[Mithrandir_The_Wise]

I wonder if it works in Gnome. I don't even have KDE installed.

Re:Feh...KDE

[Suzuran]

Yeah, heaven forbid someone disrespect Stallman by not falling into lockstep as ordered.

Fight the power, brother.

An let us not forget our Kommander...

[Anonymous Coward]

Kommander has some really nice points too...

hmm KDE

[minus_273]

i wonder what the gnome team will come out with now.

Re:hmm KDE

[Anonymous Coward]

A GTK+ modual for Gambas?

Re:hmm KDE

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, there used to be a GnomeBasic, but that project was dropped when the coders decided that .NET was the end all and be all of programming languages.

The didn't even bother to post a notice on their web page - they just dropped the project and left it to rot. I only found it had been cancelled when I wrote to one of the developers to discover the current status.

A bit ironic, because development on the Basic interpreter basically went nowhere forever, since people were pretty much focused on C#.

I've considered going that route myself, using the wxWidgets wrappers for .NET. Maybe when it's a bit more ready for prime time - I can't even get MonoDevelop to compile properly on Mandrake 10.

Re:What about the Visual Editor project on Eclipse

[gustgr]

The NetBeans IDE is also open source. It is a decent visual editor for Java Plataform development.

Thank you for today's helping of elitist crap!

[Anonymous Coward]

God forbid we should have a tool in Linux, the OS that encourages choice, learning and experimentation, that gives people another choice to learn and experiment with programming.

Totally misread that summary....

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone who has been frustrated by a lack of production-quality free RAD environments...

Production-quality free?

No, production quality is good.... Must be something else. Maybe they mis-hyphenated?

Production quality-free?

Argh....

Re:Totally misread that summary....

[hackronym0]

Anyone who has been frustrated by a lack of production-quality free RAD environments...

seems like maybe a comma might help...

Anyone who has been frustrated by a lack of production-quality, free RAD environments...

VB

[icebattle]

The thing I always liked about VB was that it enabled my boss to get his 12-year-old to write an app that almost did something useful. Then he installed it and required everyone to use it. When it failed because of poor file locking, arbitrary array limit choices (try 53) and other CS101 gambits, it became my problem (with no windows background) to fix.

Do we really need a VB clone in linuxland?

Re:VB

[stratjakt]

Yes.

You can write good code in VB, only elitist morons hear the word "BASIC" and think it's beneath them.

We have tons and tons of VB code that we have no time, or really need, to port.

High level languages are the future. People who think if it isn't written in C or ASM will be left in the past.

The easier it is to write, the easier it is to maintain, and the easier it is to use good code form and techniques. It doesn't mean any idiot can fire it up and write good code, writing good code is a skill. Just like anyone can learn to speak english, but it doesn't make them a good poet or author.

The problem is your boss's 12 year old kid, not the language. Be thankful he didn't write his dogshit code in FORTRAN, COBOL or C, using the most obscure syntax he could because it made him feel smarter. I've had to maintain/port plenty of that crap and it's no fun at all.

Re:VB

[the_weasel]

Actually, I would even go further and say the problem was his boss. I have pretty clear memories of being that 12 year old kid (18 years ago!), and writing my first software applications.

They were as good as could be expected, but no one in their right mind would have employed them in a real environment.

Congratulations to the 12 year old for doing something other than wtching tv and playing games.....

Re:VB

[Anonymous Coward]

On the other hand, where I work a team of 4 developers custom-built out an entire insurance company infrastructure out of VB-SQL Server in 2 years and left the SAP project choking on our dust. The pitfall here is not that VB allows 12 year olds to program, but that 12-year-olds can't program solid, reliable business apps. Give a 12 year old a C compiler and an assignment and he'll screw that up too. While you're at it, have you seen the kind of show-offy-not-working-over-complicated-under-usefu l crap coming from your average 25 year old programmer? Sheesh!

Sincerely, your friggin' Grampa.

Re:VB

[Just Some Guy]

When it failed because of poor file locking, arbitrary array limit choices (try 53) and other CS101 gambits, it became my problem (with no windows background) to fix.

Your boss handed you a lifetime-employment card and you're bitching?

Do we really need a VB clone in linuxland?

You do not. I do not have my retirement worked out yet, and I welcome such a clone with open arms.

Re:VB

[Anonymous Coward]

why yes,

12 out of 10 clueless idiots in management approve of it!

how else can we empower the morons that are in management (and why else are they there? they certianly are not smart enough to do the jobs they oversee) to make them think they are valuable?

Re:VB

[Erwos]

Yes. VB is a must-have for rapid prototyping. If you want to do HCI testing, it is much, much easier to try different GUI configurations with VB than most other programs.

Considering that HCI issues tend to be considered as one of Free software's weak points, this is definitely not an unimportant development.

-Erwos

Re:VB

[Kphrak]

You can write good code in VB, but that's a non-statement; you can write good code in any reasonable computer language. VB is at the border of "reasonable", so why use it when you can use a cleaner, faster, or more flexible language?

The easier it is to write, the easier it is to maintain, and the easier it is to use good code form and techniques.

On the contrary. VB's dubious advantage is that you don't have to know much about programming, or even computers, to write a program. COBOL was the VB of its day: Constricting, dumbed down, and used by business managers worldwide. The result? Crappy code.

Imagine if Microsoft made a Unix distribution, but the commands were actually just a predetermined set of aliases that called relatively complex commands. Users would generally run the aliases; more experienced users would use the aliases until they needed to do something more complicated, and then would maybe call a special wrapper that would allow them to run the complicated ones.

In the same way, VB provides a lot of components with properties to do most things a beginning programmer would want. Want anything more? Start using hex values and special library calls -- exactly as if you were programming in MSVC++, except without the faster execution time whenever you aren't making a direct API call. This isn't a big deal if you're writing some little database frontend, but if you try anything ambitious you'll start running into real trouble.

VB is a design language, nothing more. It's great if you want to deliver a demo to the Big Boss, but if you want that demo to run in a production environment, you'd bloody well write it in a better language than VB. Especially since you might not have time to port it -- oh wait, did I say "port"? I meant "rewrite", because VB isn't portable.

Incidentally (to show I'm not an elitist moron), I first learned to program in BASIC (managed to shed all of its bad habits, I think), and I maintain VB code on a regular basis. The code's well-written, but it's just not a powerful enough language to be used in production, as compared to C, Java, or Perl. VB's OK for demos, assuming you're running Windows, but it's a bad servant and an awful teacher.

Re:VB

[Chandon Seldon]

Used Glade recently?

It's an excellent tool for the Python / C rapid development methodology, as well as for speeding up programming in any of the languages it supports.

Re:VB

[zymurgy_cat]

Could be worse. The 12 year old could have written it in some really obtuse Perl that would require months just to figure out what it tries to do.

Re:VB

[fireboy1919]

It's an interpreted language that can't even do evals or operator overloading.

Yeah, that's a real keeper.

To me, high level, modern scripting languages have a list of things that they allow, such as introspection, running code generated on the fly, OOP, and operator overloading. This is by no means a complete list, it's just one that lets you know that VB doesn't fit my definition of a modern scripting language.

It's one that needs to be left in the dust along with C and ASM for high level work. I hear that Microsoft is bringing it up to speed, but your "use modern stuff" argument doesn't fly with me right now.

Re:VB

[horza]

You can write good code in VB, only elitist morons hear the word "BASIC" and think it's beneath them.

I've published BASIC apps on a decent platform (Acorn RISC OS) and it was fine. However VB is not the same as BASIC. VB is just a wierd abomination that imho is only second to Javascript. It certainly is beneath anyone that considers themselves a professional software engineer.

High level languages are the future. People who think if it isn't written in C or ASM will be left in the past.

Knowing a higher level language will give an edge. It's not the be all and end all though. The language and the syntax are only a small part of what you need for maintainable code. Good basis in algorithms, standardised coding style, version control, resuable libraries, etc. People have been promoting "next generation" languages and even "visually generated no need for coding" languages since the early 80s. The fact is that for noddy projects VB will suffice for amateurs, but the moment projects become complex it falls apart.

The easier it is to write, the easier it is to maintain, and the easier it is to use good code form and techniques. It doesn't mean any idiot can fire it up and write good code, writing good code is a skill. Just like anyone can learn to speak english, but it doesn't make them a good poet or author.

Being able to write good code is language independant. Someone that knows how to architect their code will be able to do it in VB, C, or even assembler. To follow your analogy, just because they can't speak english doesn't mean they aren't a good poet or author.

Phillip.

Re:VB

[Rysc]

VB.net fixed this. VB now has very Java-like exception handling.

It was a *required* course at my college for anyone doing programming. I made them regret that.

Re:VB

[mizhi]

Your post was incoherent.

First, you lash out at people who deride VB for its flaws.

Then you toss out a statement like "High level lanuages are the future. People who think... [blah][blah][insert entire contents of any X-is-an-obsolete-language thread]."

Then you say that, even using VB, writing good code takes skill. I.E. The language doesn't matter.

Then you wrap up by saying "the problem is your boss's 12 year old kid, not the language."

So let me get this straight: high level languages are the shit and C/ASM/etc are going the way of the do-do bird, because the syntax is more arcane? Yet, it doesn't matter what the language is because it's the skill of the coder that makes the difference?

That can be said for any language! It is possible to write clear C++/[other languages] code. And by possible, I don't mean "hard as hell, but possible", I mean "reasonably easy."

Re:VB

[Erwos]

I have, but anyone who's used VB knows that it's not the same thing.

Remember that code generation is now deprecated in Glade, and you've got to handle it all through libglade. This doesn't really compare to how VB pops up a bodyless function for you to fill in with a couple clicks.

-Erwos

Windows support?

[voice of unreason]

I can't read the articles due to slashdotting, but I was wondering, does anyone know if there are plans for a Windows version? I know this is intended to bring RAD design to Linux, but I think a lot of Windows users would be attracted to a free, open source alternative to Visual Basic, particularly considering how expensive .Net tools can be.

Re:Windows support?

[OscarGunther]

The site says that some attempts have been made to compile on Cygwin and, IIRC, the compiler works; the GUI does not. The project lead is looking for volunteers to continue this thread.

Re:Windows support?

[UglyMike]

You could have a look at Kbasic (http://www.kbasic.org/1/index) There is a non-functional preview for Windows (nada for Linux though...) OK, so it won't be free but he price is tempting

Re:Windows support?

[imemyself]

For developing VB.NET on Windows without paying a cent, you could use SharpDevelop or use the personal edition of Borland's C#Builder. I haven't used them myself for VB.NET(in love w/ C#), but they do support it. :)

Re:Windows support?

[zsau]

It's toolkit can be KDE-based, so I imagine it's possible to get it running on Windowns under Cygwin. That probably isn't what you want to hear, but it might be a starting point...

Give it another shot

[xchino]

I've tried GAMBAS (Gambas Almost Means Basic) a few times in the past and while it had potential, it was far from "production quality". I'm glad to see that development is active and I plan on giving it another shot. I'm not really a fan of Visual Basic myself, but I know a ton of VB programmers who won't make the switch simply because there isn't an viable equivalent. I think projects like this are especially important, because I beleive if you can get the developer market, the user market will follow the application trail on over. Anyways, congrats to the gambas development team.

not bad...

[Lumpy]

Although I have grown to absolutely love the Zend IDE for php programming and design.

I really hope that they are doing their implimentation right instead of the mess that VB has become over the years.

It's silly that back in VB4.0 I could write an app that does everything needed and fit it and the dll's on a floppy. now the dll files take up almost 200 meg for the VB .NET (Although we use 6.0 here as .NET is bloated compared to it.)

Re:not bad...

[Anonymous Coward]

Boo fucking hoo. You call it bloat, thousands upon thousands of developers call it a framework. You know - an enormous set of well-tested, high level libraries that help you write code quickly and correctly.

Using VB 6.0 over VB.NET because it's less bloated is like using a horse over a car because it doesn't have all those confusing buttons and knobs.

Re:not bad...

[stanmann]

HOw about using vb 6 over .net because long doesn't change definitions when you move from a pentium to a xeon?

Re:not bad...

[Anonymous Coward]

wow you dont know shit do you.

VB6 is the best VB ever made, although I agree with lumpy it is bloated all to hell.

and it is STUPID for MS to do that. a single monster DLL??? break it up so I can send only the dll's I need.

anyhoo, VB is simply a quick scripting language.

people that use it exclusively are NOT programmers, but simply Wannabe's.

VB ONLY programmers are the gutter trash of the CS world.

Re:not bad...

[12357bd]

VB3 was the best.

Re:not bad...

[gamorck]

VB6 is a horrible programming environment compared to VB.NET. The .NET framework can't be compared to anything in the pre VB.NET world as there is no real basis to perform the comparison. VB6 and below are interpreted dung heaps of languages that rely upon programmer inexperience and inability to cope with truly logical constructs. I suspect the reason you and your friends continue to use VB6 over VB.NET is simply that you haven't the skill to make ends meet in the .NET environment.

Also there was only one version of VB ever made that wasn't bloated. That of course was the original version for DOS (screenie linked below):

http://www.jaylittle.com/jaylittle/downloads/vbdos 1.png/

I hope to see you in the post VB-kiddie world some day soon. Until then have fun wallowing in DLL hell.

Re:not bad...

[gamorck]

The image url I provided was incorrect. There was an extra slash on the end. It should be:

http://www.jaylittle.com/jaylittle/downloads/vbd os 1.png

Re:What about the Visual Editor project on Eclipse

[MORB]

It is in release status. And Eclipse has lots of amazing features that makes it a serious alternative to visual studio .net. Downside is that swt (eclipse's gui toolkit) is a bit slow on linux at the moment.

I need to read more slowly.

[DrEldarion]

I saw that as "Goombas v1.0" and immediately got visions of the little mushroom-headed guys from Mario.

RAD?

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone who has been frustrated by a lack of production-quality free RAD environments should give it a try.

Personally I prefer Bodacious eviroments over Rad ones!

Just love the comments

[ClippyHater]

For all of the "Choice is GOOD" comments I've seen scattered throughout other articles on KDE vs Gnome, Emacs vs VI, etc., it's pretty amazing that the majority of people seem to be leaning towards "Why the hell does this exist, Kylix/Glad/Eclipse/etc. already does it."

Bunch of whiners.

Re:Just love the comments

[stratjakt]

The word "BASIC" scares elitist morons who think all "good" code is obscure unreadable bullshit with one letter variable names (all defined globally, of course), no real error detection, and has to be able to compile with "gcc -Funrolloops -O3 -megaoptimizeformyathlon" or else its crappy.

High level languages are the future, the closer to spoken language the better.

Re:Just love the comments

[Anonymous Coward]

I think that they're not just whining about another choice, they're simply pointing out that the article claims that this product is a "first", when clearly it's been done before.

Re:Just love the comments

[Anonymous Coward]

High level languages are the future, the closer to spoken language the better.

Spoken language is ambiguous and has lots of side effects. It depends on the application whether that's better.

Re:Nothing to see here - OT

[geomon]

If the parent got the same message as I did, then their post was *definately* not offtopic.

Sourceforge is/was offline for maintenance.

Re:Nothing to see here - OT

[Pxtl]

Ditto. Hooray for Slashcode!

Re:Oh joy!

[raindog2]

Well, when he started the project almost 3 years ago, Mono wasn't exactly usable. I'm sure someone will eventually target the virtual machine flavor of the week eventually.

Ugh - UI is Gimp 1.x like

[brunes69]

The VB UI was just one window, with toolboxes. Sure these were detachable, but they were not by default.

This thing looks like the old Gimp 1.x UI monstrosity, with 29340284309 windows everywhere.

Re:Ugh - UI is Gimp 1.x like

[willy134]

Yea!! Lots of windows to manage and lose. I can't stand using a program that is organized! ;)

Maybe by release 2.0 they will have it panelled like gimp 2.0.

Re:Ugh - UI is Gimp 1.x like

[stanmann]

you are confusing the vb 6 ui with the vb 4 ui... the vb 6 ui had the one true window layout, the vb 4 ui had the fully detachable strew your toolboxes all over the desktop layout. vb 6 could be configured to have all detached windows but didn't come that way by default.

Re:Ugh - UI is Gimp 1.x like

[raindog2]

About 20 versions ago I made an unofficial MDI version of the Gambas interface, and a new official MDI version is planned for the 1.1 series (like the old kernel numbering scheme, 1.odd will be development and 1.even will be stable.)

For what it's worth, it didn't take much coding at all (though I didn't do docking or any of that cool stuff), and I'm looking forward to using an MDI version again.

Just for posterity, here is my MDI hack. It long since stopped working with current Gambas releases due to changes in the rest of the IDE.

Should run on Windows.

[mgkimsal2]

You won't have the Access killer until something also runs on Windows.

Maybe this will, or can run under cygwin or something?

Re:Should run on Windows.

[raindog2]

It has been built on cygwin, but no one has provided a screenshot to prove it runs ;)

Qt Designer

[Un pobre guey]

Qt Designer is about as easy to use as VB, but has a decent programming language attached to it, is free even on Windows, and is multiplatform.

Beat that.

Re:Qt Designer

[Anonymous Coward]

is free even on Windows

Are you sure about that?

http://www.trolltech.com/developer/faqs/license_gp l.html#q17

Re:Qt Designer

[Anonymous Coward]

but has a decent programming language attached to it

Umm.. C++ is a decent programming language for the people a VB-type system is aimed at? Somehow, I don't think so...

Re:Kylix Was Pascal

[Anonymous Coward]

BASIC is Pascal

wisconsin

[Anonymous Coward]

you have

cheese +1

walleyes +2

you aren't illinois +5

Re:wisconsin

[codepunk]

And a butt load of BEER! +100

yupieee

[Anonymous Coward]

Well that is splendid, cant wait to get IE, Access and all the other things I am trying to flee from to linux, life is just to short for RAD guis and VB, I guess I will have to flee to Amiga Os or someting more obscure, to get away from wannabes telling me: well OO,UP and analysis in general was just a phase wasnt it, no need for all that crap, because I can just drag and drop my program cant I.

What the hell do you people expect for free?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Anyone who has been frustrated by a lack of production-quality free RAD environments should give it a try"

Correctly interpreted as "Anyone who is too cheap to buy good tools (example: Kylix), or feels that paying for software supports the machine, then they should give this a try.

You know, just because some freely available programs are great doesn't mean that ALL freely available programs are better than their commercial counterparts. If you want great tools that get you productive, you are gonna have to shell out a few bucks.

filename is still 0.99?

[phorm]

The most recent file, while described as a 1.0 RC1, is actually:

http://gambas.sourceforge.net/gambas-0.99.RC1.tar. bz2, perhaps a typo on the part of the author, or is the application not really at 1.0RC1?

Is it just me?

[jsebrech]

Is it just me or is nobody noticing here that the only thing this gambas thing does that no other IDE (like kdevelop) hasn't yet is offer a basic-like language? I mean seriously, other than the basic thing what does this thing do that's so new?

I'd rather not have basic available to learn to program in. It makes it too easy to avoid learning proper programming practices, and it damaged my ability to code for a long time.

Re:What about the Visual Editor project on Eclipse

[Joe Tie.]

I'm not sure if that warning is quite appropriate in this context. The main reason being that eclipse/swt are able to be used with gcj. If one were to follow the authors advice at the end of your article, and only have a free implementation of java on his system, the 'Java trap' should be impossible to fall into.

That "free" doesn't matter

[orasio]

Free in the sense of money is not important.
You could always have a "trial" copy, and start to pay, once you have actual work.

Free in the sense of freedom is more relevant. Other important issues arise. For example, a free tool is more useful with source code, because it can be in many cases a huge functional example of your development domain, such as Eclipse, or Tomcat have been for me.
Free as in freedom is important for people that care about freedom, too. I happen to be one of them.
So, no, Kylix doesn't count, it doesn't make much of a difference with Visual Basic, it is virtually equally free.

Production Quality IDEs

[ThadMan]

Anyone who has been frustrated by a lack of production-quality free RAD environments should give it a try.

Omnis Studio has been on Linux for four years now and other platforms for even longer. While it isn't free or open source, it's good stuff. Studio applications can run on Linux, Mac, Windoze, and Solaris.

Re:Production Quality IDEs

[Anonymous Coward]

While it isn't free or open source..........
.... and this is! kinda the point here isn't it?

Err, it is free software

[real gumby]

The source code is available. You can do this yourself. When you're done, you'll be the "someone experienced" and will have exactly what you need to boot!

Re:Nothing to see here - OT

[Curunir_wolf]

Sorry, but no. It may be similar in syntax and features to VB, but it won't help you with any of those "tops of vb apps". From the introduction on sourceforge: I want to clear up any misunderstanding immediately. Gambas does not try to be compatible with Visual Basic, and will never be. I'm convinced that its syntax and internals are far better than the one's of its proprietary cousin ;-)

Re:What about the Visual Editor project on Eclipse

[aled]

Why not? and what free definition are you using?

About time...

[blanks]

Hello linux, welcome to 1992.....

Seriously , RAD is important to alot of development, and if this is the first notable applicationf ro RAD, then linux has a ways to go.

Re:About time...

[Anonymous Coward]

your website sucks.

Correct.

[Anonymous Coward]

.Net is not the answer to every question, but it is the question to every answer.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Kylix Was Pascal

[GAlain]

Where? How? When? please explain!

Ummm. . . . Xbasic?

[Jimbo God of Unix]

http://xbasic.sourceforge.net/

I would have loved to see more development with this package instead of seeing someone write a new one from scratch.

James

Re:Ummm. . . . Xbasic?

[raindog2]

Xbasic has always seemed to me to be a lot closer to older BASIC dialects like Qbasic than to VB. Benoit really wanted to focus on object oriented programming (and removing a lot of the cruft that makes BASIC such a laughing stock... a quixotic pursuit since people who dislike BASIC will probably never give Gambas a try) rather than procedural stuff, if I'm not mistaken.

Re:I already have an ide

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, I think you missed the point. This isn't about an IDE that has a GUI, this is about an IDE that visually builds a GUI. I'm pretty sure Xemacs doesn't do that.

Porting VB to Linux, with Sybase support

[matt.quagliana]

You should look into REALbasic, a commercial product that runs on Windows and Mac, but cross-compiles to Linux.

Why REALbasic?

* It includes a VB-to-RB porting tool.

* Compiles native executables for Linux.

* Has been shipping for 6 years and is very mature.

* Supports Sybase via a plug-in developed by Sybase.

You can learn more about porting VB to Linux here: http://www.realbasic.com/vb/

It has to be

[DigiitalWiz]

Like it or not people, windows took off and allowed more programmers into Windows because of VB. Of course version 1 of VB sucked BIG TIME, but more and more apps were created and allowed new developers to move from DOS to windows. Linux does need a VB type of application, not saying it has to be a clone of it, but something that would allow the end user to create a app in a few minutes and not days.

Basic on Linux

[UglyMike]

Benoit's Gambas IDE is a very nice program indeed. Seeing it reach maturity is very satisfying indeed.
I'm surprised noone has mentioned KBasic http://www.kbasic.org/1/index.htmlyet... Also about 2 year in the making, also made by a dedicated individual.
Last week, a non-functioning preview of this Qt-based Linux/Windows IDE (later to support Mac as well) was released, unfortunately only the Windows version. Tried it at work and it looked very nice.
The main thing it has going for me is a QBasic compatibility mode. If you set VERYOLDBASIC to true, the promise is that you then have a more or less capable Qbasic emulator. The only programming I have done was in QBasic about 10 years back. I tried VB when it first came out, but all that event driven, form defining cruft got on my nerves. I'll be very happy to be able to just type 'screen 13' and have some fun again with fractals, cellular automatons and other stupid graphics hacks ( slow as hell in the time of 16Mhz 386sx but soooo much fun...)
The downer to KBasic of course is that the Bern put in SO much work that he decided to charge for it. It'll only be $30 or so, so I'll probably pony up the cash but I guess a lot of people will be p*ssed off because of this. Ah well, it's his code, he gets to decide....

HBasic http://hbasic.sourceforge.net/ also seemed nice but seems to have run in a wall sometime in the last year...
For the Basic affectionados (sans Visual), there is of course the venerable XBasic http://xbasic.sourceforge.net/ and X11-Basic http://x11-basic.sourceforge.net/ tools but these are frozen in time and not really in the same league.

Re:Basic on Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

While you're at it, what about wxBasic? It's free, open source, uses the excellent wxWidgets library.

Now when that goes cross platform

[digitalgimpus]

Other languages should be scared.

VB and Windows are popular because they are easy and quick.

If I could use this to easily write/compile (for free), software tha tran on Linux, Windows, and Mac...

guess who would unleash a new programing era?

The key here is cross platform. Like RealBasic, but free.

Mozilla Firefox built a lot off of that.

Organizations love standardization. Netscape offered that. Now Mozilla Offers that. But VB keeps them in windows.

remove VB...

and Linux has disarmed another problem attempting to kill it.

Re:Now when that goes cross platform

[sw155kn1f3]

MS Visual C++, VB#, C#, blah blah... It's not languages and form builders that make difference for RAD, but integration with other technologies built in into IDE. .Net Web Services (XMLRPC/SOAP), MS SQL, .Net Web Apps and countless others.
Do you see my point? Advanced language with just form building won't get you anywhere. You've got a form, what's next?
And no, cross-platform isn't a key. No one cares: when you start developing the app, you know exactly what platform and what configs your customer is going to use, when doing enterprise development, of course. That's how most of us get money, not shrinkwrap apps development.

(offtopic)Re:Interesting

[Drantin]

I thought /. had problems with accented characters... How long has it supported them?

Re:SmallBasic

[magic_user]

How about Small Basic?
It is currently active and works on Palm, Windows, and Linux. It also comes with sample programs so you can see what it can do.

http://smallbasic.sourceforge.net/

Because nobody uses .NET maybe?

[Theatetus]

People love to talk about .NET but I almost never see it used.

Lack of RAD?

[smcdow]

Anyone who has been frustrated by a lack of production-quality free RAD environments should give it a try.

Never been frustrated. Perl's been around for a long time.

Re:Lack of RAD?

[julesh]

So I can use Perl to implement a basic GUI with drop-down menus and buttons linked to dialog boxes and components that move and resize with the main window without actually writing a line of code? Because that's what I expect from a production-quality RAD environment.

Re:Lack of RAD?

[smcdow]

So I can use Perl to implement a basic GUI with drop-down menus and buttons linked to dialog boxes and components that move and resize with the main window without actually writing a line of code? Because that's what I expect from a production-quality RAD environment.

Yup. http://glade.gnome.org

Re:Lack of RAD?

[smcdow]

So I can use Perl to implement a basic GUI with drop-down menus and buttons linked to dialog boxes and components that move and resize with the main window without actually writing a line of code? Because that's what I expect from a production-quality RAD environment.

I know I already pointed out Glade, but as I was hitting submit, I realized that I haven't RADed a GUI in about 5 years.

CLI, man. It's ALL about CLI. RADding a GUI is a waste of time, unless you like twiddling and tweaking endlessly. If you want to write something that actually does something, and you need to do it fast, then stick to CLI.

And for that, Perl excels.

Re:Lack of RAD?

[julesh]

If you want to write something that actually does something, and you need to do it fast, then stick to CLI.

For me, RAD is synonymous with GUI building. GUI building by hand takes time, and can largely be automated. This is where you have the largest benefits. I'm sure there are CLI RAD tools, but I'm not sure how they would work. I suppose something like automated SQL query builders would count. Command line parser builders, too.

I'll freely admit that I don't like RAD, and that the VB model doesn't actually fit most of the work I do (90% of my apps have a very simple GUI that takes less than an hour to write by hand, connected to a complex back end that doesn't do much that can be reused from somebody else's components). I also have a number of tools that help me write GUIs faster than would usually be possible without a RAD environment.

Definition?

[ErfC]

Um, what does RAD mean? Is it something like an IDE (Integrated Development Environment -- editing, compliling, debugging, etc. all rolled into a single (usually graphical) interface; very handy)?

(Would it really be so hard for submitters to at least briefly explain their jargon? (Or at least expand their TLAs. ;) "If you have to ask, you don't need to know" doesn't always apply, you know.)

(And no, RAD doesn't appear in the Jargon File.)

Re:Definition?

[DanAndDusty]

Rapid Application Development I believe. So not that far from an IDE I suppose.

$109

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude,

It's $109 frickin' dollars. That's extremely cheap for what you get.

Rapid Application Development

[Anonymous Coward]

RAD = Rapid Application Development

Re:Rapid Application Development

[ErfC]

Fantastic -- thanks!

known troll - mod down

[Anonymous Coward]

mbonig is a known troll and his username is a racial slur

OT: Python RAD

[nurb432]

I've watched Gambas grow the last year or so, and it looks great.. Too bad its not for python instead..

So the question is, is there one out there for python that is as usable and feature full? ( and boacontstructor doesnt count.. its not there.. yet )

Re:OT: Python RAD

[Bero]

Take a look at ERIC - it's a pretty good Python based RAD.
(If you're using Ark Linux, you can simply apt-get install eric and apt-get install gambas to give both a try)

*BSD Version?

[nurb432]

Does the RC run with (F/N/O)BSD? I noticed there were a few issues with previous releases..

Nice, but is VB the proper model for apps?

[master_p]

Visual Basic, until version 6, had a very horrible architecture: business logic was embedded in forms. VB6 does not follow the MVC pattern, and it does not have the proper constructs to implement that manually.

Furthermore, in a world that has Java + Eclipse, Qt + Qt Designer/KDeveloper, why should I use VB6? it maybe easier in the beginning, but in the long run, it is a nightmare, especially for big distributed projects.

I think Gambas is about 5 years late, to say the least.

Re:Nice, but is VB the proper model for apps?

[raindog2]

Of course, Gambas is not VB6. Forms and the classes containing their business logic are separate, though you can have the IDE hide that fact from the user.

I would also say that anyone currently using C++ and thinking "hey, this is easy enough" is really not the target audience for any kind of BASIC RAD environment. I have to admit that I wish there were something like Gambas only with Perl (and no, Qt Designer and PerlQt don't count... I am the author of one of the more prominent PerlQt projects out there and I quickly reached a point where I had to resort to emacs.)

The existence of MSVC++ never eclipsed VB's popularity, and I see no reason that the glut of C++, Java and even Python environments for Linux should make Gambas unnecessary. It's meant for people who are not doing GUI programming for Linux currently or who find it to be annoyingly arcane, not for people who have "#include" burned into their fingers' muscle memory.

Re:Nice, but is VB the proper model for apps?

[master_p]

But how am I gonna write apps based on the MVC pattern with Gambas? I saw no support for class events, for example. Or the ability to define my own callbacks in classes. In fact, it is only the forms that have callbacks.

I think that any non-MVC GUI app quickly becomes very difficult to maintain.

The Gambas Wiki states that Gambas is not VB, but it is a variant of Basic. Well, VB7 is also a Basic variant, but I can do pretty much what I want, including MVC patterns.

Re:Nice, but is VB the proper model for apps?

[raindog2]

You may not have seen support for class events, but that doesn't mean it wasn't there.

Re:Nice, but is VB the proper model for apps?

[master_p]

But the docs don't say how events are used. Can I add functions to it? can I add methods? do I need to manually detach objects from events for the garbage collector or it is done automatically?

Re:Nice, but is VB the proper model for apps?

[raindog2]

By default, when your class raises an event its event listener runs (instance of class)_(name of event) which is a method. There are ways to change that.... if you still can't figure it out, please feel free to join the gambas-user list which is quite active and is meant for questions like these.

Re:Nice, but is VB the proper model for apps?

[master_p]

Ah, I understand. If you have an event, say 'Customer.nameChanged', then if I want to write a listener in class Foo, I would have to write a method 'Foo.nameChanged', then for every Foo instance this method is called.

So the Gambas environment does the mapping of events to methods automatically based on the method name. What if two classes have the same events? then which class is used by Gambas?

I am sure that Gambas takes care of this and the other details, but they must be documented somewhere visible from the Gambas web visitors, otherwise people might be unfair to Gambas.

Re:Nice, but is VB the proper model for apps?

[raindog2]

Actually, no, by default you would have to write a method named Foo_nameChanged in your listener, so there would be no namespace collisions.

You're right that it should be documented better.... since we use a wiki for documentation, I have just now added some stuff to the EVENT page.

Re:Nice, but is VB the proper model for apps?

[master_p]

A, now I completely understand how it works: you got to have a named variable which is an instance of some class, and write a method for that instance. For example, as you say in the docs, if I have a class FancyButton, and an instance named MyButton, then MyButton_clicked would be an event handler. Sweet.

But this does not help to implement the MVC pattern. Do I always have to have a named variable to be an event listener? can't I have any object, created at run time, as a listener?

Methinks it would be better if Gambas was a true object-oriented language with Basic syntax.

Re:Nice, but is VB the proper model for apps?

[raindog2]

You neglected to follow through to the "See Also" entries. From the Control Groups page linked at the bottom (which is applicable to all classes, but no one's ever asked how to do it with anything but controls before):

myControl = NEW ColumnView(ME) AS "myGroup"

will then cause the handlers named myGroup_Click, et al. to receive the new columnview's events.

Once again, questions like these really belong on gambas-user@lists.sourceforge.net and, with all apologies, an inability to spend more than 30 seconds reading documentation does not make a language not buzzword-compatible.

Re:Nice, but is VB the proper model for apps?

[master_p]

You neglected to follow through to the "See Also" entries. From the Control Groups page linked at the bottom

I don't think the links' text make it easy to understand that I should click on them in order to read about the MVC pattern.

(which is applicable to all classes, but no one's ever asked how to do it with anything but controls before):

Events is a foundamental construct in any programming environment: it is the basis for the MVC pattern, which is the most important pattern in developing robust applications. So events are not only about controls, but for any object that wants to act as a component.

myControl = NEW ColumnView(ME) AS "myGroup"

will then cause the handlers named myGroup_Click, et al. to receive the new columnview's events.

Sweet, but what about data objects? I want my data model as a separate entity in my program, possibly reflecting my database, for example.

Once again, questions like these really belong on gambas-user@lists.sourceforge.net

I don't think that something as foundamental as events should be 10 pages deep. It should be right in the front page.

an inability to spend more than 30 seconds reading documentation

What inability are you talking about? I don't see how 'see also' and 'control groups' have anything to do with the MVC pattern. I don't think anyone does.

does not make a language not buzzword-compatible.

Even in web development, the most effort of the last 4 years had gone into the MVC pattern. That's why Sun made J2EE model 2, that's why Cocoon is considered very good (separation of concerns), that's why there is EJBs, that's why there is Hibernate (and a myriad other MVC frameworks): to separate the data model from the view and the controllers. Not only the data model is gonna be separate from the view and controllers, but it also gonna be persistent and separate from all applications.

If you fail to see the importance of MVC, and if Gambas consequently fails to support it (which is the case, as far as I can see), then Gambas is not gonna go very far, at least for Enterprise-level apps. VB6 logic is previous decade.

Re:Nice, but is VB the proper model for apps?

[raindog2]

People who favor .NET and Java who use the word "enterprise" a lot have been dissing Gambas ever since Benoit started writing it, so please forgive my lack of concern over one more. Gambas is not J2EE or VB.NET, but it's something different than VB6 as well.

Nonetheless, you're welcome to join and subsequently influence Gambas development; that's why I got involved, and (for example) the influence of others has resulted in object prevalence being a design goal for the next version after 1.0. To me object prevalence is just another buzzword, so maybe Benoit and the others who contribute to the core of Gambas will be less dismissive of you than I am.

Re:Nice, but is VB the proper model for apps?

[master_p]

have been dissing Gambas

I am not dissing Gambas...not at all. I wish every bit of success. I just have good experience in VB, C++, Java and lately J2EE (well, and many other environments, but that's just not of your concern) so I know some of the potential pitfalls of programming.

you're welcome to join and subsequently influence Gambas development

I wish I had the time to do so.

maybe Benoit and the others who contribute to the core of Gambas will be less dismissive of you than I am

Bah, I don't care about that. Good luck with Gambas. I am sure it will have its fair share of success.

Is there a windows version available?

[Spy der Mann]

If they want to dominate the market, they must make it CROSS-PLATFORM.

So far I haven't seen any cross-platform RAD tool. Except Delphi/Kylix, rest in peace.

RTFA

[raindog2]

From the announcement linked in the slashdot submission....

"After a long period of learning acting ;-) here is the first release candidate of gambas 1.0! The package is named 0.99.RC1, because the 1.0 version number is always greater than any 0.99.*."

Re:RTFA

[phorm]

Actually, there's an odd answer to that...

I assume you're referring to this page, which for some reason doesn't appear in my browser properly (firefox 0.9.3/lin). That is, the text is white-on-white - it found the words "release candidate" when I did a search, but I can't see it... or any of the text.

So for those who are using FF0.9.3, perhaps we'll have to rely on somebody else who posts the article text before it's readable :-).

Re:Nothing to see here - OT

[raindog2]

Well, there's a facility to convert VB5/6 forms to Gambas already, and while the code is a different BASIC dialect than VB, it really is not difficult to port. Certainly it beats porting to C++, Python or Pascal by a long shot.

Kambas?

[chochos]

Why is it called Gambas if it's based on KDE? Shouldn't be called Kambas?

Seriously, I was expecting to see a Gnome-based app...

I guess the Gnome people are going to hit back with something called Krad?

On one hand, it might be good that KDE and Gnome apps stop having stupid names that have to start with a K or a G... but it's going to be confusing at first.

Re:Kambas?

[raindog2]

Gambas is a recursive acronym in the spirit of GNU... "Gambas Almost Means BASic", apparently. It got a Qt binding first because that happens to be what the author picked in the first place, but a Gtk binding is in progress.

I am glad to see more apps rejecting the Gwhatever/Kwhatever convention too.

that's nothing

[Anonymous Coward]

I was with a female coworker at 4am at a customer site checking some SQL code.

I got stuck on the line

changedbowner

and after looking at it for 10 seconds looked at my coworker who also looked at me with the same strange look.

Finally clicked but it was but we only spoke about it 3 days later and realised we read the same thing.

Gorm -- the GNUstep GUI builder...

[borgheron]

Uh... we've had a GUI builder which is tons better than glade for the last two years. :)

I should know.. I wrote it.

http://www.gnustep.org

GJC

Pitty

[Grizzlysmit]

it's based on Basic, yuck, what would be nice would be a multi-language RAD tool a bit like kylix, but completely open source, so far I don't know of one like that :-(, ohh welll

Re:I don't like it

[photon317]

I love slashdot logic. If you disagree with someone strongly, they must be trolling. I won't bother responding to the various comments below, although for the most part they contain serious logical fallacies and don't constitute a real rebuttal at all.

Smalltalk Dolphin.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Anyone who has been frustrated by a lack of production-quality free RAD environments should give it a try.""

I've been using various Smalltalk's over the years, and all I have to say is "What took you so long?"

Software without a direction

[stonecypher]

You really have to choose your market or you're doomed to thrash in trying to please everyone; specific-purpose tools serve niche markets better than niche "one for all" tools.

This product is a perfect example. It wants to be Visual-Basic-Style, yet it also wants to be production quality.

Pick a direction, guys. You can't have both.

Two words: Killer Application

[Qbertino]

Rant and hiss all you want. This application has the potential to move an entire generation of mid-40ish "Windows and VB4 still works for me" people - who are basically stating the truth - to Linux / OSS enviroments.
And no Blahblah about Eclipse Basic being somewhere close to RAD or QTDevelop being a sort-of half way kinda RAD tool and "whats all the excitement about, I only need Perl and a few bazillion extra libs and dependency resoltions to write nice TK-Apps that are ugly as hell" will change that.

As for me, I'm sold. Congratulations to the Gambas team.

Kexi

[nurb432]

This will fulfill your wish of a MSAccess killer, if its completed..

Remember MSAccess is a standalone product and really isnt made for 'programmers'....

"not a clone" = "not compatible" ? if so, too bad

[walterbyrd]

I think a project like this would be about 100X time more useful if it was even compatible with an old version of VB. If that were the case, then you could compile VB apps to run on Linux, now *that* would be a big deal.

As it is, who's going to use it? Hobbiests? What is the point of writing an app in this language?

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it's very nice, and impressive in it's own way. But, I suppose it's just a curiousity.

I don't like it-Intellectual prejudice.

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't the argument that the OP is using, the very same when we have an outsourcing story?

We talk about people who basically shouldn't have gone into computing (for money usually, but not always). e.g. MSCE, paper certificates.

Then everyone starts chiming in with a "me too", and how "Love" is the most important criteria, and they're glad that the "DOT BOOM" rejects are gone.

Now we have a VB clone for Linux and intellectual prejudice rears it's ugly head once again when the intellectual elite perceive that their domain is being encroached upon by those "not worthy" (an accusation lobbed at the AMA. Funny how it's bad when anyone, but themselves do it)

Saw this last year and was impressed

[Rysc]

But the damn thing would only let me install to /opt and I fucking hate /opt. If they've fixed their build system I'll grab this in a nanosecond for all of my quick graphical program needs.

(No matter what Perl zealots other than me say, there is no such thing as a quick, throwaway GUI perl app.)

I dunno, but I thought glade was pretty close

[agraupe]

What exactly makes this any better than glade? Both are free as in speech, but Glade is able to harness the programming power of C. The only downpoint is GTK dependance. I mean, having used both VB and Glade, I can say that I prefer Glade. I don't think it is any slower, and if it is, it is because C is infinitely more flexible.

Re:I dunno, but I thought glade was pretty close

[raindog2]

What exactly makes this any better than glade? Both are free as in speech, but Glade is able to harness the programming power of C.

I think you answered your own question. There are a lot more VB programmers than C programmers out there, and the VB->Gambas learning curve is a lot shorter than the VB->C one.

I'm pretty sure that had there been "GLADE Basic", or "Qt Designer Basic", Gambas never would have reached critical mass and become usable/supportable.... but it turns out most Linux programmers turn their noses up at BASIC (who knew?) and GNOME Basic and KBasic went into hibernation at just about the time Gambas was starting to leave infancy...

Production Quality ... RAD ???

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone who has been frustrated by a lack of production-quality free RAD environments should give it a try.

I'm not sure "Production Quality" and "RAD" belong together in the same statement.