XBox Owner Sues Microsoft

drusoicy writes "Reuters is reporting that Sean Burke has filed suit against Microsoft because his XBox system stopped reading discs (games or otherwise) after less than one year of use. Many XBox owners can relate, as XBox hard drives are known for crashing. 'The defective XBox's stop working after minimal usage, after unreasonably, unconscionably, unusually and unexpectedly short amounts of time,' the lawsuit said. The suit will probably become class action, and seeks to represent anyone who has purchased an XBOX since the 2001 launch."

Comments

Why can't he just return it?

[Anonymous Coward]

Does the world really need another lawsuit?

Re:Why can't he just return it?

[David Horn]

Precisely - what's wrong with taking it back to the shop and asking for a new one? This is just someone out to try to make cash from MS and I don't think it should have been posted on Slashdot, as it will no doubt aid their cause.

Re:Why can't he just return it?

[Anonymous Coward]

Does the world really need another manufacturer producing bad goods?

Re:Why can't he just return it?

[TheRealMindChild]

You miss the point. You give them an inch, they will take a mile. Then a lightyear. Its less about getting money/new xbox and more about "quit selling garage"

Re:Why can't he just return it?

[McKinney83]

Do you think a store would take a product back after a year?
And give you a replacement?

Re:Why can't he just return it?

[tenasius]

It's been over a year. The store is not liable, the manufacturer is.

Re:Why can't he just return it?

[badriram]

No.... This happened to me to, barely a year after my XBOX started giving me the disc is dirty erorrs on new video games. What what pissed me offf the most was that there were a ton of people this happened to, and MS charges a 130$ to fix a problem that really is a hardware fault.

This is not one of those McDonalds Hot coffee lawsuits

Re:Why can't he just return it?

[Mojojojo Monkey Inc.]

But... I like my Microsoft Xgarage, it's the only place in my house big enough to store my Xbox.

Re:Why can't he just return it?

[CommieLib]

I had some problems with my XBox and a cleaning disc really helped. I had no idea that such a thing even existed for DVD players.

Having said that, XBox won't play a lot of the Netflix discs, presumably because of their wear and tear.

Re:Why can't he just return it?

[CGP314]

This is not one of those McDonalds Hot coffee lawsuits

Neither was the McDonalds hot coffee lawsuite


-Colin

Re:Why can't he just return it?

[MMaestro]

If you got the extended warranty, yes a store will take it back AND give you a replacement. (Though it'll be a 'refurbished' one.)

Re:Why can't he just return it?

[Neon Spiral Injector]

Nope. 90 days is all Microsoft gives you against defects.

Re:Why can't he just return it?

[spiritraveller]

This is just someone out to try to make cash from MS

Riiiiiiiiiight.

Let's see, $150 XBOX.

Best possible reward:
$150
-Attorney fees
-Court costs
= -thousands of dollars

The lawyers will make plenty of money... but the guy whose XBOX broke will be lucky if he gets a coupon for some games that still won't work in his defective XBOX.

Re:Why can't he just return it?

[sgant]

Really, I can't see the guy actually filing this...I'm sure it was his attorney that got ahold of him and saw "class action" written all over it and is just using this poor slob as a springboard.

Class action lawsuits are for attorneys, not clients.

Re:Why can't he just return it?

[micromoog]

Where do you store the controllers?

Re:Why can't he just return it?

[OverlordQ]

Coffee is not supposed to cause 3rd Degree burns out of the coffee pot. That is 'unsafe temperatures' (tm)

Re:Why can't he just return it?

[networkBoy]

I know of no store who will take an item back after the manufacturers warrenty expires (90 days in this case) without an extended warrenty having been purchased.

On a semi-related note,
The number one repair I see in my "shop" is assed up mod attempts, followed closely by dying DVD-rom drives. The reason? The drives never spin down once a game is inserted. if the game disk is out of round for any reason, even by a timy ammount the drive doesn't stand a chance.
-nB

Re:Why can't he just return it?

[OverlordQ]

Reports also indicate that McDonald's consistently keeps its coffee at 185 degrees, still approximately 20 degrees hotter than at other restaurants. Third degree burns occur at this temperature in just two to seven seconds, requiring skin grafting, debridement and whirlpool treatments that cost tens of thousands of dollars and result in permanent disfigurement, extreme pain and disability to the victims for many months, and in some cases, years.

The lady in the lawsuit put the coffee between her legs and drove off, thus spilling it.

a) She wasn't driving
B) it wasn't between her legs

Read

Re:Why can't he just return it?

[Stuart Gibson]

So, the UK has some sensible consumer rights then? All goods purchased have a mandatory years warranty, and the agent has liability for the product up to six years, though that doesn't mean it's guaranteed for six years, but the retailer is deemed to be partly responsible for repair costs within this time. The chances of finding a retailer who will actually do anything this long after purchase are slim, but the year warranty will be honoured by everyone (by law).

Stuart

Re:Why can't he just return it?

[mephistus]

If you have one of the notorious Thompson drives you can spend on tenth ($13) of that $130 price tag on a replacement lens. We bought one a couple of weeks ago off Ebay, opened up the optical drive and removed the old lens and replaced it with our new piece. It's not any harder than piecing together your own rig or seating a CPU. And every self respecting geek has access to a soldering iron any way.

Since then it's worked great, even better than when we first got the Xbox. No skipping, it loads and reads quicker, and all around works. Of course you can also get replacement drives like the Samsung 616T if you can find them for less than that repair price as well ($60-$80).

Now if you don't mind, I have to get back to playing Rainbow Six 3. :)

Re:Why can't he just return it?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm, as far as I know the UK is still in the EU, this means you have 2 years warranty by law as far as I know (at least here in the Netherlands we do and it's supposedly because of EU rules). I actually returned stuff which was almost two years old and had no problems getting a replacement.

Re:Why can't he just return it?

[gfxguy]

This is a lesson learned for the consumer - if consumers would just stop buying crappy products (and over paying for them), then companies would start making better products.

I know it's not going to happen, this is MS, but then at least YOU as a consumer have learned and make better decisions in the future.

What happens if this guy loses the case? Does he wash his hands of MS? NO! He runs out and buys a new Xbox anyway. And he will forever be annoyed by inferior products.

Re:Why can't he just return it?

[Anonymous Coward]

Look at the Firestone tire recall...would you all be saying "Just use the tires even though they suck...when you crash and die, just return the tires for new ones". I thought not.

The difference here is that, when your XBox breaks down, it doesn't fucking kill you!

Re:Why can't he just return it?

[mcc]

The lawyers will make plenty of money... but the guy whose XBOX broke will be lucky if he gets a coupon for some games that still won't work in his defective XBOX.

Sometimes class actions of this particular type the remediation is just that the machine gets fixed. I had an Aiwa stereo of one specific model that had a defect where the CD drive would consistently break after a couple of years. There was a class action, and the settlement was that everyone who bought this particular model got a coupon to go get the CD drive repaired for free. I found this entirely satisfactory.

Re:Why can't he just return it?

[BlueCodeWarrior]

I use my bag of holding.

Re:Why can't he just return it?

[Jucius Maximus]

"I know of no store who will take an item back after the manufacturers warrenty expires (90 days in this case) without an extended warrenty having been purchased."

Costco. They have the best return policy of any store I have ever visited. My cousin bought a camera at Costco in Canada, and then returned to the Caribbean and then moved to the UK. After the 1 year warranty was up, the camera started turning on and off all by itself, extending and retracting the lens, and doing all kinds of madness. Eventually visiting Canada again with the original receipt, we took it there and explained what was happening. Costco refunded the full price of the camera. No fuss. No muss. In cash.

I always try to get my electronics gear there because I know with absolute certainty that if the products acts up, I can get my money back, no questions asked.

Re:Why can't he just return it?

[Flashbck]

what's wrong with taking it back to the shop and asking for a new one?

Questions like this make me sick! This just goes to show how much the typical American consumer (myself included) views product quality.

Sure he could return it, but why can't we expect the manufacturer to provide a quality product that will last longer than 1 year?

This is the wrong attitude people. Big business has, for far too long, operated under the premise that they can make average quality products that will break in a short lifetime and just replace the product when it breaks. This works great for them because a large percentage of people will probably never send the product in for repairs. Why do you think there are companies that have a "try it for a week and send it back for a full refund" policy? They can do this because people are inherently lazy and therefore will never return the product.

I say make the company who sells the product make something of quality that will not break in less than a year!

Re:Why can't he just return it?

[shepd]

A law like this in North America would cause warranties to default to zero. All products would be labelled "As Is" to reduce liability. Trust me on that. I'm a retailer myself and we get plenty of garbage products in from manufacturers that we know will welch on their warranty that get labelled like that by us as is (BIG fluorescent sticker, too). You'd think that would deter customers from buying them, but nooo... the customers demand them ($15 CDN power supplies, sub $180 CDN satellite receivers, etc, etc). I don't want to sell them, but I'm a store. I'm there to serve the public, and make a good wage doing that. So you sell what you're told (by customers) to sell.

Re:Why can't he just return it?

[jd678]

Just checked this out. There is an EU directive which in part calls for harmonisation across the states with regards to consumer protection. Some states were lobbied by their consumer groups to take this to mean offering a 2 year warranty in line with other countries.

Others just made law what the directive required.

You can find the directive here:
http://europa.eu.int/comm/consumers/policy/ develop ments/guar/guar01_en.pdf

Re:Why can't he just return it?

[Acidic_Diarrhea]

That doesn't seem right. Was there something wrong with the shoes or was he just being dishonest?

Two wrongs don't make a right - even when it comes to multi-national corporations. And this person was an educator? Where and what did he teach?

Re:Why can't he just return it?

[budgenator]

well maybe he didn't want to submit to the Extended Warrenty Extortion. Personaly I feel if a product doesn't last a year, it was defective fom the git-go.

Re:Why can't he just return it?

[RexCelestis]

1) Third degree burns are the least serious kind. They rarely require medical treatment.

Third degree burns are the most serious. First degree burns rarely require treatment.

Rex

Re:Why can't he just return it?

[EtherAlchemist]

Ya pays your money and ya takes your chances.

No, no you don't. That's the whole point to consumer protection laws. Companies that mass produce faulty products and sell them to the public should be held liable.

This isn't simply a case of one guy getting a bad system, a lot of people are experiencing the same kinds of failures which would seem to point to either faulty components, bad design or substandard manufacturing. What if it wasn't the drives? What if shitty wiring lead to these people being shocked? Or a poor quality power supply caught fire and burned down their houses? "Hey, whoa- it caught fire and ruined your life AFTER the 90 day warranty, sorry!"

If you really follow the "take your chances" line, then I envy you. Most people can not afford to throw away cash and hope whatever they buy holds up for more than 90 days, much less hope it's a benign failure.

Re:Why can't he just return it?

[secolactico]

In fact, it does works. A teacher I had was always returning the shoes of all his sons to Nikes just before the warranty expired to get new ones

What did he teach? Ethics?

Re:Why can't he just return it?

[Politburo]

Pasta isn't the issue here. You don't drink the water you use to make pasta. Heaters aren't the issue here, you don't eat heaters. Spare me the anecdotes; they're the weakest argument in the world.

You're all missing the point of the McDonalds case. Coffee is designed to be consumed. Yes, it's a hot liquid, but it is still designed for human consumption. Liquid that can cause third degree burns within 5 seconds is not suitable for human consumption. This is what McDonalds was selling, and they were well aware of this. It was an unsafe product, with a history of being unsafe, and the corporation took no actions to correct it until the lawsuit.

Again, if this was so simple, why was the lawsuit successful?

Re:Why can't he just return it?

[Have Blue]

The DVD drive can spin down after a game is inserted; whether it is given enough time to depends on how the game uses it. I know this because when my first Xbox died, the manner of its death was that the DVD drive became incapable of spinning back up after it had spun down. Games which used the drive for periodic random access tended to freeze, games which used the HD as a cache could play an entire level and freeze between them (when it tried to cache the next one).

Also, the drive will spin down if you leave a DVD movie paused. My Xbox couldn't recover from that either.

Re:Why can't he just return it?

[cooley]

Yes, it should last longer than a year. My Atari 2600 still works. So does my Nintendo. So does my Tandy 1000 TL/2 80286.

Re:Why can't he just return it?

[mdfst13]

"B) it wasn't between her legs"

From your link: "Liebeck placed the cup between her knees and attempted to remove the plastic lid from the cup."

Please explain how one puts something between one's knees without putting it between one's legs. Remember that the knees are *part* of the legs.

The main reasons she won the suit were:

1. She had no reason to be aware that spilling McDonald's coffee would be so much more harmful to her than other coffee (it was roughly 40 degrees hotter than home brewed would have been and 30 degrees hotter than most other vendors).

2. McDonald's did (she wasn't the first to sue them).

3. McDonald's didn't do anything to decrease the danger, e.g.:

a) Make the coffee cooler (which McDonald's did post verdict).

b) Make it possible to add the creamer and sugar without removing the lid (i.e. make a safer lid).

c) Warn her that the coffee was much hotter than other coffee and would scald if spilled.

4. Finally, McDonald's made no attempt to negotiate with her. After all, she just wanted her medical (and later legal) bills paid. Instead, they let it go to a jury, who bent them over.

Re:Why can't he just return it?

[Viceice]

I was told this by a lecturer where I'm studying.

The reason why Costco can do this is because it is a very high volume sales enviorment. Manufecturers fight to get their products displayed and sold at CostCo, so this gives CostCo an advantage.

It can set it's return policy and manufecturers who want their stuff displayed there will have to agree to it. So effectively all CostCo does is do soem paperwork and benefit from customer goodwill, and the cost of the returns and other liabilities are shifted to the manufecturers.

The terms slant very much in CostCo's favour, but the sheer volume of sales justify this to manufecturers.

Re:Why can't he just return it?

[bluekanoodle]

You can buy replacement dvd drives for them on ebay for about $20 bucks, that's what I did. Microsoft still screwed up on cutting these costs, but at least he can resurrect it from the footrest graveyard.

Re:Why can't he just return it?

[TheHonestTruth]

They offer extended warranties on console systems? And people actually pay for that?

Yup. I paid an extra $30 when I bought my PS2 (at launch) and got the 3 (2 maybe?) years extended warranty. One year, 2 months later, my PS2 died because something was wrong with the fan and it overheated or something. I took it back to EB, showed them my warranty, and they gave me a new one. Not a refurb, either. Brand new. Worked great ever since.

These days, my metric is: would I be willing to pay full price again after a year for this without being majorly pissed? If the answer is no, then I get the warranty. I bought my Gamecube for $99 and didn't get the insurance because if it broke after a year, I'd be annoyed I'd pay another $100, but I'd cross that bridge if I came to it.

It's like any insurance. You hope you never need it, but you are glad you have it when you do.

-truth

Re:Why can't he just return it?

[Red Alastor]

Learn to read. From your link :

I love hoaxes like this -- good, old-fashioned greed dressed up to look like altruism!

February 1998 saw the following e-mail show up in many an inbox:

Just a quick note to tell you about a program that Nike started to help make fields and playgrounds for the underprivileged from old tennis shoes.

All YOU have to do is send in your old tennis shoes (NO MATTER WHAT THEY LOOK LIKE) with a piece of paper that has your name and address on it, and Nike will send you a brand new pair back FREE OF COST!!!

The tennis shoes you send DO NOT have to be Nike. Just as long as they are tennis shoes. It really is a worthwhile project, and it's helping a lot of young kids. Here is the address:

Nike Recycling Center
c/o Reuse-A-Shoe
26755 SW 95th Street
Wilsonville, OR 97070

They don't take "old" shoes, only those under the warranty. They don't take shoes from other vendors and they don't recycle them.

But like all urban legends, it started with a bit of truth : Nike have a too permissive warranty policy.

PS2 Class-action

[Liselle]

I didn't think history would repeat itself so soon. How many people remember the class-action lawsuit against Sony? They had the infamous "Disk Read Error" on the 1st generation PS2s. If I recall correctly, Sony has to repair or replace the affected systems, even if they are out of warranty (I'm sure someone will correct me if I am mistaken).

Reputable links are pretty sparse, but a quick Google search revealed a FAQ that has surfaced in several places. I usually despise class-action suits, they tend to only make lawyers rich, but as the owner of a failed 1st gen PS2, I have to say this might be a worthy use of it. IANAL, etc.

Re:PS2 Class-action

[destiney]

I took home 3 PS2s before getting one that worked. And even it is so ultra-sensitive to tiny amounts of household dust that I have to clean it 3 or 4 times a year for it to work.

I remember the old days with my Atari 2600. That thing took a beating and never stopped working.

Re:PS2 Class-action

[3terrabyte]

Except the joysticks.

Re:PS2 Class-action

[LanMan04]

I've had my 1st Generation PS2 repaired twice (by Sony via mail, for free). The neat thing is that if any of your games are damaged by the PS2 (I got some beautiful circular scratches ground into the discs, making them very unplayable even on OK PS2s), they cut you a check for the ORIGINAL retail price of all the games. Pretty good customer service, or fear of being sued again.

Re:PS2 Class-action

[DroopyStonx]

Yep, and you can actually get a free PS2 out of this because they don't require that you send your old one in.

You just need to

1. call in and report the incident to Sony.
2. file a complaint with your state's Attorney General.

When Sony gets the complaint, they will look up your record to see that you did in fact call (and when you call, 99% of the time they'll ask you to send it in and will charge you, just decline).

They will ship your PS2.

Believe it or not, it's that easy... just like with the MS optical mice. You can buy an Intellimouse Explorer and the very next day call them and say it's broken. They'll just up and send ya a new one without question.

Re:PS2 Class-action

[American AC in Paris]

I remember the old days with my Atari 2600. That thing took a beating and never stopped working.

You were lucky.

Mine had a habit of turning "Combat", "River Raid", and "Pitfall!" into "Vertical Lines and Shrill Tone". That game sucked.

...on the upside, this meant I got to play "Blow The Gunk Out of the Cartridge" for free. I also got to play "Whoa, Dizzy!" a lot.

Good times.

Re:PS2 Class-action

[Falrick]

That's funny. "Blow The Gunk Out of the Cartridge" is known as "Deposit Corrosive Agents On Metal Contacts" in my house.

Until recently, I was a devoted to cleaning my nintendo cartridge via a quick injection of air, err, blowing on the cartridges. Then I read a knowledge base article at Nintendo. It said that when you blow on the cartridge you're actually making the problem worse by coating with metal leads with fine particles of spit. Mmmm. Spit.

Makes sense when you think about it. The layer of spit may temporarily make the electrons flow, but a combination of moisture, electricity and metal leads to corrosion. Suddenly Mario explodes into hundreds of tiny blocks on the screen.

I recently pulled out my old NES, which I hadn't played since probably '94. None of my games worked, so I sat down and cleaned the contacts using a cleaning kit that I bought back in the day. I then cleaned all of my games. You've got to clean both or else there's no point. The result? My Nintendo works better now than I can ever remember it working!

Rock on cleaning agents. Now usefull for more than just sniffing punks.

What is the Warranty Period?

[stecoop]

Rest assured that MS doesn't want their Xbox to die after a length of time. As /. has speculated in the past, MS is selling them at a loss. Supposedly, the money is in the support services and gaming. I bet it will get repaired if it is wihtin the warranty period.

Also, MS has rolled out the media center for Xbox. I speculate that MS is trying to enter the Movies Over IP (moops from Seinfeld ;). I thought that Xbox needed a TV turner but now I believe that the new market is going to be TCP/IP movie center rather than Rf coax.

Re:What is the Warranty Period?

[erick99]

I agree. Microsoft has typically been very easy to deal with on the hardware side of their business. I have experienced this as a consumer and during 19 years working at MS authorized dealers. For example, if you have a defective mouse, a phone call generally yields a new mouse immediately shipped off to you. I know the cost is low on a mouse, but, it is indicative of my experience. I wonder what happened in the case of this xBox that kept the owner from working with Microsoft on a resolution - the article doesn't say either way.

Re:What is the Warranty Period?

[iocat]

Xbox warranty is only 90 days. Suck0rz. But they do offer an extended two-year one, which you have to buy at the time of purchase I guess. I don't know. I never have had a problem with any hardware, even my 9/9/95 PSX. -Chris

Re:What is the Warranty Period?

[macromegas]

Free market as in the freedom to sell crap? Bah ... there should be a possibility to sue them for crimial abuse of resources considering the sheer mass of electronic left-overs and the problems are already arising as most is simply poison. Europes even some recycling laws applying to all kind of electronics now (and right they are) and thats starting to have an effect on the chinese products already.

Re:What is the Warranty Period?

[koreth]

There is a risk and either the company has to allocate money to a risk fund or acquire insurance to cover defective products.

Or change their manufacturing techniques to make the products less likely to break in the first two years. That's more the point of minimum-warranty laws. The cost will certainly affect the company's bottom line and will be reflected in prices, yes, but it's not a sure thing that the cost will exceed the cost that would have been paid by the company's customers if the law weren't there. (If one out of two widgets breaks, and it raises prices by 5% to change that failure rate to one out of a hundred, then you could argue it's a win for the public.)

I happen to agree that it's better to let people choose their risk level -- if they have ready access to all the pertinent information about the reliability of products from different manufacturers. But companies are not always forthcoming about their products' problems (big surprise) and for a lot of purchases, it's simply not practical to scour the library and/or the Internet doing extensive background research to make a perfectly informed choice.

Even with the law in place, consumers in Europe are free to purchase extended warranties or not, and they're responsible for gathering information about what they're about to buy. Some products are still much better than others. The law simply raises the minimum standard that's expected of companies. It says when you buy a product, you're going to get what you think you're getting, not a piece of junk that'll fall apart as soon as you pull it out of the box.

And even the US has product safety laws, which are really just another aspect of the same thing -- a way of relieving the public as a whole of the requirement to be walking encyclopedias of product knowledge just to function in day-to-day life.

representation?

[edsarkiss]

'...unreasonably, unconscionably, unusually and unexpectedly short amounts of time,'

is he being represented by Jackie Childs?

What about Sony?

[DaveCBio]

Bitch all you want about the Xbox, but the PS2 is just as bad and the older models were worse. Between crapped out pickups and fried power supplies quite few people are on their second or third PS2.

This lawsuit

[macshune]

Is like shooting a .22 at Godzilla.

Warranty?

[LEgregius]

The article says nothing about the warranty on the xBox and if Microsoft is willing to repair or replace the unit. What is the warranty?

Re:Warranty?

[retro128]

The warranty is crap - Only 90 days. Obviously, the two biggest weak points on that thing are the HD and the DVD reader. I never understood why the decision was made to install a hard disk. I mean, it's a console - Kids play with it, and the thing is subject to a few bumps and drops. Not good for an HD. If you don't have the thing chipped and your HD fails you are basically screwed, unless you want to pay blood money for repair. If you're chipped you can just take that 10GB junker out and put in a $50 40GB drive.

As far as the DVD reader goes, there are sites on the net that sell replacement lasers for them and have tutorials for repairing the drive.

Re:Warranty?

[Hockney Twang]

Speaking of "kids play with it," a friend of mine, in a drunken fight, picked up his Xbox and used it to beat an offending drunkard into submission. Magically, the hard drive survived the savage encounter. In fact, the machine still works fine to this day, despite living in some of the most hostile conditions in which I've ever seen a computer placed.

Re:Warranty?

[retro128]

picked up his Xbox and used it to beat an offending drunkard into submission.

Thank God the Xbox is ok ;)

Dear XBOX User

[Letter]

Dear XBOX User,

That's what you get for using the mod-chip.

Letter

Re:Dear XBOX User

[MightyPez]

Heh, with the mod chip, I don't need no DVD drive to play my games!

Re:Dear XBOX User

[thatshortkid]

Dear Letter, With a chipped XBox, you can replace a fried default drive. Not pretty, but neither are lawyers. XBOX User

PS2 owners should follow suit...

[kasek]

if this is successful, PS2 owners should pursue similiar damages against Sony. My PS2 stopped reading older games and some DVD movies. Having read about problems like this before, i knew what needed to be done. Fix it myself, since Sony won't recognize it as a defect in the system and repair it for you. Unless you want to shell out a ton of dough for shipping and repair costs, which almost cost as much as a new PS2 would. It is a common issue with the PS2s, and its simple to fix. Yet sony wont accept the responsibility for it.

Re:PS2 owners should follow suit...

[Cyph]

I believe there's been a class action suit against Sony for this exact reason already. They settled by giving free repairs for PS2s with DREs (disk read errors). Everyone I know has been able to get free repairs for DRE-related problems when their PS2s failed. You do have to pay for shipping, however.

Numbers?

[Anonymous Coward]

I work in retail, for a company that sells both x-boxes and PS2s. I know there are a lot more PS2s than X-boxes, but I probably see 20 PS2s to every X-Box being returned due to being defective, and we honor manufactuer's warranty. I know that PS2s have had cooling problems in the past too, but I've never heard anything about a specific reliability issue with X-Boxes. Basically, are there any numbers or points that show otherwise?

Have 4 Xboxes...some drives are just crap

[FerretFrottage]

Among the first things an xbox modder does is check out the dvd drive. Generally speaking, the phillips drives are the worse. The thompson drives can be okay, but the samsung drives are considered to be the best because they will allow for the widest reading range of media (cd-r, dc-rw, dvd-r, etc.)

In my experiences, the phillips drives are the hardest to read with, even just slightly scratched or dirty dvds give it problems...the thompson and samsung drives are able to read the same discs with no problems most of the time (some discs are just play unreadble). My thompson drive will read cd-rw disks but only from select media vendors, the samsung drive seems to read everything (hence the reason I've upgrade the 2 phillips drives with samsung drives).

At least his didn't catch fire!!

[gosand]

A friend had his son's Xbox catch fire. I don't know if there was actual flame, but there was snapping and smoke. Of course, calling MS support, he found out that the warranty was voided because he opened it up to see what might have burned up. So he is basically SOL, and has to buy a new one if he and his son want to make use of the games they bought. He can certainly afford it, and he actually bought another one the next day. But he checked on the net and I guess this wasn't the first time this has happened. I think the PS blew out or something. Kind of scary.

Re:At least his didn't catch fire!!

[Nitwits]

You might contact UL. UL tends to be VERY interested in household products that show signs of fire. At the very least, it will probably get you a new Xbox. It might get an Xbox recall.

unconscionably...?

[cymraeg]

i return my hardware when it develops a conscience.

the last thing i want is my xbox wondering about anything but its own meagre existence.

And if they win!

[Ambient_Developer]

We might get a whole 18 dollars back. While the lawers get millions.

Re:And if they win!

[ackthpt]

We might get a whole 18 dollars back. While the lawers get millions.

Not likely. Microsoft Home Entertainment Division will probably offer coupons for exchanges and a free game or something. Once they've got you hooked, you think they're going to let you get away?

Plain as a day...

[Andr0s]

..is that someone is hogging for publicity. Is there technical grounds for this lawsuit? No. warranty should damn well cover the excuse for the lawsuit, malfunction in no way threatened user's well-being, health or personal safety (withdrawal shakes aside) and compared to the number of XBox systems on the market, it's easy to claim that this is 'acceptable malfunction rate'.

IMO, this guy is trying to get a spotlight, as well as maybe a bit of money for a settlement - perhaps Micro$oft would be happier to pay him off quickly than to get some (more) negative publicity. Then again, with all the negative stuff about M$ circulating these days, what's another minor hardware-related issue? They'll just blame whoever manufactured the drives.

He gets my support

[Vampyre_Dark]

"The Thomspon Drive" is well known to XBox players. They break down after a few months of use, and microsoft has pretty much thrown their hands up in the air at the whole situation. In all these years they have never done or said anything about it. The only thing you can do is send it in for repair, at which they charge you for it full price as if it was your own fault.

That would be fine if a few failure, but this is a failure on a massive scale. Almost everyone who has an XBox with a thompson drive has a failing system. Mine has recently started to break down, and I'm lucky the new Baldur's Gate game has a save point every 2 minutes, because I had to retstart the machine 20 times in a span of 45 minutes the last time I played.

There goes a Halo 2 sale.

Re:maybe....

[PDHoss]

Yeah, the hardware thing has been a disaster.

I had one of these drives..

[Recoil_42]

Microsoft fixed mine for free after i complained, but many people have problems with these drives, and i'm very happy that this guy is suing MS.

The problem stems from the Thomson drives used in the Mexican factories -- the chinese factories use Philips and Samsung drives which have no problems, but Thomson drives are notorious for failing in the Xbox community.

Just one look at the official xbox forums reveals hundreds of complaints about dirty disk errors, and on eBay and Xbox parts dealer websites like llamma.com, DVD lasers are the most often sold parts.

From what i understand, the drives themselves aren't really defective -- they're built fine, the problem is that the resistor on the laser is set too high, and as a result, the laser is too weak to read the disks -- thomson drives refuse to read CD-Rs, for that very reason.

Microsoft still won't acknowledge that this problem exists, but over the past few years, they've slowly but surely shifted to using more samsung drives, and less thomson drives, so i'm sure they're at least aware of the problem internally.

My old Mexico-Thomson Xbox works fine now after the repairs -- they replaced the drive with another thomson, which has given me no problems since. But it still doesn't read CD-Rs, whereas my Chinese-built Philips xbox has no qualms whatsoever reading the crappiest of CD-Rs..

Re:I had one of these drives..

[Recoil_42]

Look for an Xbox with the last two numbers of the serial number being 06. Those are made in China, and are usually Samsungs or Philips. 05s are good too, but those are mostly Philips (nothing wrong with philips at all, but samsungs are slightly better -- so an 06 is preferable, but don't shy away just because all the store has are 05's)

Personally, my Philips is an 05, and my Thomson is an 03 or 04, i can't remember.

Why not the same thing for Windows ME?

[toetagger1]

Sign me up!

My experience

[thesandtiger]

My Xbox stopped reading discs a couple of months after I got it. Other Xboxen were able to read the discs, just mine had the error.

I got mine replaced for free, and paid only the shipping costs. So, it wasn't any kind of unreasonable situation, MSFT refusing to support their product, at that time - they just replaced it.

However, it's been awhile since then, and I imagine that at some point they saw this was a much bigger problem, and at that point shifted into a different mode.

Presumably, some number cruncher figured out that the number of people who'd just cough up or forget about it compared to the people who'd demand a freebie or sue would work out in such a way that it was to their advantage to handle it this way rather than issue a recall/replacement announcement.

Re:Class action, huh?

[InfiniteWisdom]

So now you're hoping for a -1 off-topic?

NES

[o0congee0o]

Anybody remember the bad contacts on the old front loaded NES. The famicom didn't have that problem. Stupid design. Can I sue for all the times I injured myself by jamming the cart in with excessive force? Because it only works when you use excessive force. but you gotta give it to the NES, it still works after all the abuse I unleased upon it.

Point taken XBOX owner

[SetupWeasel]

But why isn't anyone suing Sony for the same thing?

I wish those console sales trackers would publish statistics on reliability. I know it would be impossible to do it perfectly. Maybe do a test study to get some idea, because I have a feeling that the true market share numbers are much different than the % purchased that they give now.

Re:ok?

[PitaBred]

You're a well-trained little consumer, aren't you?
Gone are the days of actually making robust products, no, we'll give them warranties. Chances are that even if it does break, people won't hit companies up for the warranties, especially if they're limited time. It's a profit increasing mechanism.
Ever seen the movie Tommy Boy? Warranties on brake pads? A warranty does a fat lot of good if the brakes fail. Give me a well-built product any day, even my consumer electronics. Enough of this throw-away crap.

XBOX DVD drive problems

[rufus t firefly]

I had a friend who bought an original XBOX (v1.0), and after using it for a few years found that the DVD drive would only sporadically read discs.

Upon taking the case apart and starting the box, I found that the top plate of the DVD drive had warped over time, and was no longer pushing the top spindle down on the disc. This was causing the disc to fail to spin with the motor. It was fixed by removing the top plate of the DVD drive and bending it back into place, then using some foam to sit between the top of the XBOX case and the top plate of the DVD drive. As hacky as this sounds, it actually works, and his XBOX hasn't given him any problems of that nature since.

I wish I had bothered to remember the brand of drive. In their defense, I don't think he ever left the XBOX off ...

Re:ok?

[matth1jd]

Yes all hardware does stop at sometime for some people but from what I know this is a fairly common problem.

Why is there a story on /.? Probably because it involves Microsoft.

I'm about 95% sure that the XBox warranty is 90 days long. You pay for a extra for a long term warranty.

I believe that there is reason to expect hardware to last longer than a year, after all most computers come with warranties that last at least a year, and an xbox is essentially a computer running a stripped down version of the Windows XP Kernel.

Do I think there should be a lawsuit over this, eh maybe not, but it'll be interesting to watch!

--JM

Palm

[nuggz]

And your palmpilot was made where (mine is mexican)
My car has over 75k miles and it hasn't had problems.
I think they're still building the new beetle (and lots of other VWss in Mexico). Actually I think many of the major carmakers have plants in Mexico.

It happened to me too...

[JojoLinkyBob]

I had the same problem, too, then I discovered this huge web forum and discovered that I....wasn't alone :|

Following the forum's advice, I notified Microsoft of the problem, and they "unofficially" replaced it for free, even though it was out of warranty.
My take on it was that Microsoft clearly knew about the problem early on, but figured it was much cheaper to make discrete replacements to complaining customers, than formally announce a recall.

Just fix it yourself

[vrone]

Having helped many people replace a faulty DVD drive on the XBOX, I can say with confidence that anyone with $32 and a couple of torx screwdrivers can easily get their Xbox going again.

Step one: Purchase a new replacement drive on eBay from this guy. (He always has an auction running, even though this one is about to end). Cost: $24 + $8 S+H
Step two: Open up your xbox (many tutorials available on xbox-scene.com)
Step three: Replace the drive. You'll also need to remove the front bezel of the old drive and put it on the new one.
Step four: put it back together again.

Time for repair: 15 minutes.

give the people what they want

[Doc Ruby]

You can have it >Cheap, >Good, >Fast. Pick any two.

Re:give the people what they want

[rxmd]

You can have it >Cheap, >Good, >Fast. Pick any two.

Or >Sane, >Hot, >Smart, in other circumstances.

What do you expect?

[gone.fishing]

Why, if MS software crashes, shouldn't MS hardware do the same?

I don't own an X-box and really can't weigh in on facts because I don't have any and don't care enough to make 'em up (unlike many of our politicians).

But I can float some questions:
1. Has MS ever delivered a reliable gen 1
product?
2. Is this a through and through Microsoft
product or are they just the marketers
of someone else's (custom) design, built
in a contract manufacturers plant?
3. Why are so many slashdotters buying
Microsoft X-Boxes?

Re:NEWSFLASH

[Atomizer]

I'm too stupid to know what a suppost number is.

Microsoft's Dirty (Disk) Policy

[AgentJose1]

Of course I know that hard drives and drives will fail. Especially with drives that use a laser to read the information off the disc, eventually the laser would burn out. It happened to me literally a year and one month after I had purchased the xbox, so my "warranty" had expired...(Maybe it's because I left it on for 80 hours straight once...not always playing but when I would go somewhere I would pause it and just leave it running) But I called up Microsoft and they said "Sure, it'll be $100 + shipping" to fix it! I was like "You're kidding...well, don't you guys have an extended warranty?" "Sure, it costs $50." So I hung up the phone, called back, purchased an extended warranty and then said "I'd like to enact my warranty please." It covers me for 2 years *and* I only had to pay like $8 in shipping. Better than spending $149 clams(at the time) for a new xbox. Normally it would have been more adventageous to throw out the xbox, but I own more than the cost of the xbox in games, most of which I play fairly frequently. What I *do* have a beef with, is the way in which their communicator for xbox live is designed. If you've never seen it, the earpiece/microphone is attached to the headband which holds the unit on your head by a flimsy piece of plastic. So far I've had 2 of them break on me by just picking them up and having the communicator cord snag on something. I was *really* mad about that, because that's not excessive abuse, it's just normal use. I called MS and told them their product was defective, and they said "Well, sorry, there's nothing we can do about it." My solution: Buy a third-party xbox live headset. Logitech sells one for not much more than the xbox one, and it looks a little sturdier. Of course, I need something called "money" to buy one, of which that is really scarce at the moment.

un

[Mr_Silver]

The defective XBox's stop working after minimal usage, after unreasonably, unconscionably, unusually and unexpectedly short amounts of time

I can't believe they missed out understandably, unashamadily, unauthorized, unavoidably and 614 other possibilities!

Re:ok?

[merphle]

When the PS2 came out, Electronics Boutique was offering a supplementary 2-year warranty (for something like $80), and would cover any and all damages incurred. They'd simply give you a new PS2 if you brought in a damaged one.

I happened to be browsing at the local ElBo one day and overheard a conversation between the store manager and a customer, whom was purchasing a new PS2. The former was trying to convince the latter into buying the warranty. His argument (paraphrased):

Manager: We had someone come in days before his warranty was up. He asked if the warranty covered all damages, regardless of the reason for the damages. I told him that it does. He proceeded to drop the PS2 on the ground and stomp on it, cursing [some game that I can't remember]. He handed the mangled PS2 to me and his receipt. I handed him a brand new boxed PS2.

See? Those warranties really ARE worth it -- stress relief!

Bad wording

[hollismb]

Technically, the article is all wrong. I've never heard of an Xbox hard-drive crashing, although I'm sure it's probably happened. Specifically, it should be referring to the faulty disc drive, which is a common problem, and normally refers to Thompson drives that were in most launch Xbox's. The warranty is 90 days, just like on most consumer level electronics. Why file a lawsuit though, when he could have just called Microsoft and bitched about it? I've read many accounts where people have complained about a faulty disc drive a few times and gotten their Xbox fixed for free.

The law and why he can sue ...

[gp310ad]

The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act is outlined here for the benefit of business owners.

The bottom line is that there is always an 'implied warranty' that a product will perform.
This implied warranty supersedes any limited (i.e. 90 days for the XBOX) warranties.

One could reasonably expect a computer or CDplayer or car radio to last 5 years. If it craps out in 6 months, one has recourse. This is true even if the limited warranty says 90 days. Push hard and the seller will come around. Sometimes all it takes is a copy of the referenced URL and sometimes it takes a lawsuit.

Re:The law and why he can sue ...

[Keeper]

You might want to try reading the act first.

"If you offer a 'limited' written warranty, the law allows you to include a provision that restricts the duration of implied warranties to the duration of your limited warranty. For example, if you offer a two-year limited warranty, you can limit implied warranties to two years."

Re:ok?

[blixel]

yeah, MS wants you to buy another XBox so they lose another $50... what an evil corporation.

Are they still losing money on each console they sell? The cost of electronics constantly goes down. When consoles are designed, this fact is taken into consideration. Microsoft, Nintendo, or Sony may lose $X on the first million consoles they ship. Then they break even on the next million. Every console after that has an increasing profit margin.

But that really isn't even the point. They make money by selling games, X-Box live subscriptions, and peripherals. They will gladly trade a $50 loss on the sale of a new console to keep you buying games for the X-Box. And that is still less of a loss to them than it would be to repair your old product. By selling you a new console, at least they get some money back. By fixing your old one, it's 100% money lost.

I'm not suggesting that they are built to fail 1 day after the warranty expires. That's idiotic conspiratorial thinking. I believe it is in MS's best interest to sell you a console that works for at LEAST the life cycle of that generation of consoles, and preferably a few years beyond. During which time you *buy* lots of X-Box games, peripherals, and subscribe to X-Box Live.

But if it does fail after the warranty period, the manufacturer doesn't have much incentive to fix it. Maybe if you mailed photo copies that showed that you buy at least 10 games per month for the last year, and planned on buying 10 games per month for the next 3 years, that would provide them with enough incentive to fix/replace your console. But short of that, the manufacturer would prefer you just buy a new console. As said before, at least then they get some money back even if the consoles haven't hit an age of profit yet.

And lets not forget the whole concept of market share and units shipped. Those numbers are very important to manufacturers for selling advertising and getting other companies to back your product. Why fix thousands of broken consoles if you aren't legally obligated? Many of those people will undoubtedly buy another one which will increase the total number of units sold.

Warranties are NOT free

[rev063]

My computer stopped working after 6 months... what did I do? I sent it in to get it repaired... for FREE because of a warranty

This is such a stupid statement, but I see it all the time. Warranty repairs are NOT free. The cost of supporting the warranty is already factored into the price you pay at purchase. And this doesn't even count the indirect costs of making a warranty claim: the time you are without the product for which you've paid, the time spend to ship it and fill in the forms, the cost of interim replacements, etc. etc.

When I buy a car, I generally look for the one that has the highest reliability rating, and NOT the one that offers the longest warranty (all other things being equal, which they never are, of course). I'd rather have a product I can depend on, rather that one the manufacture is implicitly stating is likely to fail.

Remember kid: there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

Re:maybe....

[rseuhs]

AFAIK, the keyboards and mice are also doing losses (although small ones, not the billions that XBox is causing) and MS sees them as a means of getting customer recognicion - When they see the "Microsoft" logo everytimt they use the computer, they are more likely to buy software from them than from another vendor.

ummm...?

[Ender Ryan]

This guy bought a product, and it failed after an absolutely unreasonable timeframe. And you're saying he should have _purchased_ (ie. PAID MORE MONEY!) to protect against such an occurance. So... In other words, it's not the manufacturers responsibility if the product doesn't work?

No. Fuck that.

We are a litigious society because we have no useful consumer protection - here, consumer protection is usually insane over-protection, and a complete lack everywhere else - and our legal system is completely fucked, and encourages frivilous lawsuits. Other countries don't have this problem, and they have much more useful consumer protection.

Re:ummm...?

[Johnny5000]

Please define your use of "unreasonable timeframe." According to Microsoft, that timeframe is 90 days

So basically Microsoft is saying that all you can expect out of your XBox is a lifespan of 3 months, and anything over that, you're playing with borrowed time?

Re:ummm...?

[bluekanoodle]

Except that in this case, it seems many of the CD-roms drives on the original batch of of Xboxes were prone to premature failure. I know mine was. A class action suit would allow all owners, like myself, who experienced this failure to prove that this is more then just a few bad apples, but systematic of all the particular drives in those Xbox's and thus should be covered, warranty or not.

There is no reason that such a large portion of Xbox owners should experience the same component failure in a short period of time, when that same type of component has been proven in other systems over a period of time to have an longer avergae life. (DVD_rom drives)

Think about it

[WebCowboy]

ALL pieces of hardware are known to stop working for some amount of people. That's why people get WARRANTIES. The most common reason for things to stop working is due to misuse... e.g. putting it on the carpet so it collects dust.

True enough, but when does it become unreasonable? Is one percent or ten percent premature failure rate acceptable? Also, ALL warranties are limited in some way, and more often than not do not cover damage due to misuse. Guess who defines "misuse"--the manufacturer. Is it really reasonable to consider operation of a home game console on a carpeted surface misuse?

HELLOOO...I think engineers would've figured out that even since before the Atari 2600, home video games are used mostly by kids, teens and college students in carpeted or otherwise "harsh" environments like basement rumpus rooms, dorm rooms, etc? The damn thing is usually hooked up to a big screen and has wired controllers for cryin' out loud...if MS wanted the XBox to sit on a clean, well ventilated shelf or desk like the PC it really is, then it should've come with wireless controllers so players could sit back from the TV without taking the machine and setting it on the floor.

Why do we have a slashdot story on a piece of hardware that stopped working? and why XBox (rhetorical question)? why not apple? i'm sure a fair amount of macs stop working within a year as well.

Because it stops working too quickly and too often? It isn't unique to /. or to computers. 60 minutes has done stories on shoddy products as well. Canadian TV watchers might remember two newsmagazine shows CBC's "Marketwatch" and CTV's "Live it Up!" that were almost exclusively dedicated to the quality of goods and services (like "Consumer Reports" for TV). People want a heads up when they could be buying a potential lemon. Because of this story, I know that if I ever get an XBox it might acutally be worth getting Future Shop's extended warranty for a change.

Why XBox? Becuase it is proving to be flimsy. Why not apple? Because they build quality products at this very moment. Apple HAS received a slagging from /. before (Remember the early powerbooks with the flakey power connectors? Hot cube machines? Earphones on some iPods?). The thing is, Apple got bitten by this and now when there are failures, they promptly and properly respond, even if the cause of the failure is questionable. With the latest iMac, most components are even user serviceable so you don't even have to send in your machine--Apple will overnight the needed parts at no cost to you. It's not always when it breaks down--it's the service you get when it happens.

My computer stopped working after 6 months... what did I do? I sent it in to get it repaired... for FREE because of a warranty

I'm glad your experience was relatively positive. I know of a builder here who (if possible) will immediately give you an identical replacement machine at no cost to you (and will even swap the hard drive from your machine, if the hard drive is not the cause of failure--so you don't even lose your data). Unfortunately, many companies are not so generous with their warranty policies. All too often, the warranty terms are in two columns of fine print on an A4 sheet that accidentally gets thrown away with the packing material--and the manufacturer follows it to the letter looking for any reason not to help you out. I'm not sure how Microsoft handles warranty claims, but if someone wants to sue maybe its more like the latter case.

I agree, it seems that the US is far to litigous and that the lawsuit seems frivilous. However, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and say there MUST be a reason this person wasn't satisfied with just taking it in for repair. Are these machines consistently failing during warranty coverage? Did he get grief from Microsoft over the failure because they claimed he abused the product? Anyone out there care to relate their experiences?

As so

Re: Warranties

[delphin42]

This guy bought a product, and it failed after an absolutely unreasonable timeframe. And you're saying he should have _purchased_ (ie. PAID MORE MONEY!) to protect against such an occurance. So... In other words, it's not the manufacturers responsibility if the product doesn't work?

Yes. There's a tradeoff between the cost of the product and the support burden on the manufacturer. If you want to require Microsoft to warranty their product for a "reasonable" timeframe then you have to be willing to pay more for your XBox.

As much as I hate having an extended warranty shoved down my throat at a retail outlet, I do appreciate the fact that at least I have a choice. If I want insurance that my product will work for 3,4,5 years then I can pay more and get it, but on the otherhand I also have the freedom to buy the product with the manufacturers rather limited warranty and not pay any more than I have to for the product. Nothing is free, reliability costs money and so does support. At least making the extended warranty a separate purchase gives the consumer the choice.

Microsoft is very aware of the problem

[moofrank]

My short saga is a bit interesting: I only use my xbox for games. Proper licensed ones. The drive was a Thompson, and had been progressively giving me more and more disc read errors until it flat out refused to read most games. This was 14 months after purchase. I called Microsoft, got the $130 price for repair that it was out of warranty, told them I was upset. During the dialogue, I gave them my work address. And was planning to buy a new Xbox. I work for a major metropolitan newspaper, however. I received a call back from Microsoft in about 90 minutes. I believe it was the same CS rep with a second person sitting nearby. She would stop and whisper to him occasionally. The dialogue went something like: "We understand that you have a problem, and since the box is so near the warranty expiration, we can replace the system at a reduced price. $50 and you cover shipping." Whisper. "Actually we can do as a customer appeciation replacement if you just cover shipping." Whisper. "It appears that your Xbox is still under warranty, so we can just go ahead and replace it. I'll send you a prepaid shipping box to your address." It was the most amazing backpedal I've ever encountered from a company. Moo, Frank

It doesn't work

[Craig Ringer]

Unfortunately, that model doesn't seem to actually work. The reason everything used to be well made and often sold with lifetime warranties - but rarely is now - is that people started buying the cheaper option no matter what.

People buy on price. So long as that persists, there's only a small market for quality products.

Would you really pay probably five times as much for a system you can expect to run vastly more reliably and run for, say, ten years? If so, would you, by the end of the second year why you didn't buy the cheap one?

I do agree that it's gone too far (6 month HDD warranties and 90 day warranties on products that cost several hundered - WTF?!) but usually where it makes sense you have the option of a decent warranty. You also, again where it's practical to make one, usually have the option of a better made product that will last longer.

So tell me, do you have enterprise class SCSI or SATA drives in your PC? Or did you buy the cheap 120GB PATA ones?

I'll put my money where my mouth is when I care. I just bought a very nice bike with a lifetime warranty on the frame - and don't ever expect to have to call in the warranty. It doesn't cost that much more to make a bike frame _much_ better, and it's worth the premium.

On the other hand, if someone told me SUN were making dual Opteron workstations with a lifetime warranty (and build quality such that SUN didn't expect it to be used much) so why don't I get one - it's "only" $10,000 - I'd laugh in their face. To me, my PC dying is acceptable compared to the price tradeoff I get in exchange for that risk - I have a functional brain, I keep backups and know how to recover quickly so it's not that big a deal.

I often wish it was possible to buy better quality products, and am increasingly irritated by the tendency of quality to equate with overpriced wank - to pay for quality, often you're forced to pay for stupid wank factor too. Sometimes you just can't seem to get quality (I've been through three kettles recently, and have just given up hope of finding one that doesn't suck). Still, indestructable and expensive isn't for every situation, much as crap with a warranty or cheap with no warranty are both also unsuitable for many situations.

I know everyone hates MS...

[nwbvt]

...but come on! He is suing because his toy broke. Thats it. This is the world when even 12 year old kids have ambulance chasers, er, lawyers following them around and filing lawsuits whenever something happens that pisses them off.

But in PR terms

[phorm]

It's more like shooting a bazooka. With XBox2 coming out, the last thing MS will want is tons of people bitching about how their XBox was an unreliable piece of crap within a year.

Other things to consider:

a) Sony has similar issues with disc read errors (see previous comments) and will fix PS2's with this defect for free. Somebody must have pulled the guns on them for this to happen too

b) MS wants to sell games. Supposedly the consoles come at a loss. You aren't selling many games to somebody with a problem console, hence no profit.

c) If world gets around that Xboxes are prone to early failure, will people gamble with Xbox2?

UK law

[rikkus-x]

As far as I am aware, if you buy something in the UK (not services, or some other things that don't count, but goods) then legally you can to take them back to where you bought them within one year and you have the right to a full refund or replacement.

If I'm right on this, why is there no such thing in the US?

Rik

MS isn't right ... they aren't wrong, either

[hipster_doofus]

While I certainly have sympathy for this guy, I don't think a lawsuit is the answer here.

For starters, most "low-end" consumer electronics are not covered by what I would consider to be a long or extensive warranty, so this should come as no surprise to him that the warranty was already expired. Most of these devices are made to be disposable and/or have a fairly limited life span.

Most /.ers have read Bruce Schneier and know that he talks about trade-offs in security. Well, product cost vs. quality is a trade-off, too. Microsoft could probably sell me a $500 XBox that would have a 2 or 3 year warranty, but they know that I probably don't want to spend $500 for an XBox. Therefore, they decide to use lower-quality components in order to sell an XBox to me at a price I'm willing to pay. I might also add that since MS is selling the hardware at a loss, they have no incentive to use higher-quality components. This is also an area where extended warranties attempt to give consumers an option. If you pay me $X, I will ensure that you have a working XBox for the next X months/years. Depending upon the cost of the goods and your financial situation, an extended warranty may or may not be a good purchase, but I won't go into that here.

I don't think that this guy has a case against Microsoft because he was the person that made the trade-off that led him into this position (i.e. - not buying an extended warranty, not checking to see how long MS' warranty was before he chose not to buy the extended warranty, etc.). Being upset because something broke is understandable, but filing a lawsuit is simply not the answer - especially given the relatively low cost of an XBox when compared with many other pieces of home electronics. All he's going to accomplish by making this a class action lawsuit is enriching himself (possibly) and some lawyers - he's probably not going to do others in the class one bit of good.

To be blunt: expecting things to be cheap, always work, and be of high overall quality is just not realistic. There has to be a balance in the equation and for game consoles, price is what sells. The fact that he got burned this time around should be no surprise to anyone - himself included. He should just do what any other person would do: try to have it fixed, or just buy a new one. He's already wasted more than $150 of his time by getting a lawyer involved with this process.

I can see it now...."dear microsoft consumer..."

[rwrife]

I can see it now, in a few months we'll receive a letter letting us choose one of the following:

1) opt-out of the class action lawsuit, so we can file suit against Microsoft later.

2) doing nothing, which makes you part of the lawsuit and you forfeit your rights to file suit over Microsoft products, but you'll be entitled to a $1.20 rebate towards your next Microsoft purchase (lawyers will collect millions).

3) attend a public hearing about the lawsuit.

Class action lawsuits are stupid and the guy whining about his xbox not working doesn't realize he is being used by the lawyer for the lawyer's benefit and not his. He needs to just go to Walmart, spend $150 on a new XBox and return the broken one in the new one's packaging...problem solved!!

repeat after me

[dougnaka]

I will not file frivilous lawsuits regardless of the unfair amounts of cash I could get. I look down on those who perpetuate the deplorable state of the legal system in this country, especially the lawyers who gain the most from the abuse of this system. I will vote for change, recommend change, and work towards change for the betterment of the people. I understand that lawsuits are often the only recourse of an injustice and I support their use for these purposes. I do not support the use of lawsuits to pass my responsibilities onto others, and I accept full responsibility for my actions. I understand the inherit risks in daily life and that there are things that nobody is responsible for. I recognize that coffee is generally served hot, nobody can see around blind corners, complex medical procedures involve a certian risk, if I eat more calories than I burn I will gain weight, if I eat foods high in sugar/fat/cholesterol it is likely that I will suffer health consequences for this, if I smoke cigarettes I will increase my risk for cancer, and if I drink drano I will likely die.

Game cubes?

[nuknuk]

Just curious, for you store owners that do console repairs, what is the frequency of Gamecube repairs? I've beaten the hell out of mine, and it's never skipped a beat. Granted, I'm not putting burned media etc. in there, but it seems like pretty reliable hardware to me.

The UK law ...

[Tim Ward]

... is that the retailer is responsible for what they sell - after all it is the retailer that has the contract with the punter, not the manufacturer. The punter cannot sue the manufacturer because they have no contract with the manufacturer.

If the manufacturer chooses to offer some sort of warranty to either the retailer and/or the punter that's up to them; they don't have to, it's a free market.

If the retailer doesn't want to bear the costs of remedying crap products that they sell they have a very simple solution ... refrain from selling crap products.

Seems...

[Fringex]

frivolous to me. How much could you really sue them for without looking like a money hog? The price of the X-Box when you had purchased it? Sueing for any amount over 400 dollars would just make the guy look money hungry and striving for a reason.

Grievance? Hardly. His X-Box broke and I am sure it is repairable. How long is the warranty on one of these things? Or did he violate his warranty with one of the many many hacks for the X-Box and is now upset?

To me this seems very very very frivolous and I am surprised it made the front page news of slashdot.

Re:why should there be?

[ymgve]

Here's the point: Over in Europe, we don't pay for our warranties.

Re:GCN failures?

[NullProg]

I've got three boys and three Nintendo systems here at the compound. Between the pulling on the controllers, stepping on the controllers and the three foot drop all the units have taken, I can honestly say Nintendo makes a quality product.

Hell, even all the game boys have survied the outside/stepping on/dropping/dog biting tests :)

It's funny about the three foot drop test though, when I went to purchase our game cube, the best buy shrill was really pestering me to look at the x-box. I told him fine, I'll buy it if you can drop it three feet and it still works. Needless to say, he would not/didn't do it :)

Enjoy,

my system never died

[luther349]

i have a first gen 1.0 xbox referbished and this system has lasted 2 years and the dvd drive shows no sighn of dying out on me. and i got a 1 year warrenty couse it was a rebuild. but being my warrenty is over with i have no problem disassembling my xbox every year and cleaning it with a air compresser to blow the dust out. i also got a cd lens cleaner cd ment for a xbox i run once every 3 months. and my xbox even being a first gen rebuild runs perfctly. most peoples systems die from dirty lensis and lack of care dirty lens = drive working 3 times as hard to read a disk and evetly burning it out. my brother bought a new 1.3 xbox but he never took care of itand withen6 months the dvd drive burned out and he lives in a roach infestid aperment so it probly also had a infstation. so my point is if these people with dead systems never cleaned the drives with simple cd cleaner you can buy froma game shop for a $1.99 then whine why did there system die well they have no case. if its people like me who take very good care of there system and do perfentiv matence on them and it dies in under a year then they have a good case.

90 day Warranty

[r00td43m0n]

I work for a retailer and the 90 day warranty is actually pretty sneaky. It is 90 days from the day it was manufactured, not sold.

Re:MicroSOFT, not HARD

[Loonacy]

In related news, MicroSoft has changed its name to MegaHard. They had to buy out a little known pornographic movie company to do so, but correspondance suggests they believe it was "worth the price." A leaked memo reveals Bill Gates originally wanted the movie studio just so he could sleep with porn stars on film, but then he found out they only produce homoerotic movies.