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Hibernating to Mars
neutron_p writes "Manned missions beyond the Moon are no longer wild dreams. NASA plans a manned mission to Mars before 2020. With automatic systems in control, astronauts would face the challenge of living in a confined space with not much to do for an extremely long period. 'Might as well sleep it off!' Studies initiated by ESA have gone one step further. Wouldn't it be nice if astronauts could hibernate! ESA biologists are conducting investigations into the physiological mechanisms that mammals use to hibernate."
This strikes me as having two BIG problems right from the start:
This would be great, if it works, but I bet we end up doing it the hard way...
"I'm a scientist! I don't think, I observe!" - Dr. Clayton Forrester
It would suck to be stuck in a spaceship for three years, sure. But it would also suck to fall asleep and wake up three years later -- and three years older, with absolutely nothing to show for it. Sure, external sources of damage would be nearly eliminated, so you wouldn't be three years shorter of telomeres. Also, being in one place for the duration means hard radiation shielding is much more practical than trying to hard shield the entire ship.
Mal-2
How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
I'd have to recommend near light speed instead. First of all, the trip will be faster. And as an added bonus, time will pass faster.
The trip will feel as if it was from now... to... now. Or even faster, from now to now. Or maybe even from nowtonow if they are really close to light speed.
The one advantage with the hibernation thing is that they might feel really rested when they get there.
The Internet is full. Go Away!!!
This is funny, but it's actually on the right track. Rather than developing machines that we can sleep in for long periods of time, we should be looking at modifying humans (genetically or otherwise) so that they can survive a long trip through space. Nature has adapted us to life on Earth, we must adapt ourselves to living in other environments. Best of all would be to transplant our consciousness into durable robotic chassis with interchangeable/hot-swappable components so that we can effectively live forever and survive anywhere.
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
Wouldn't a long trip without the prospect of seeing friends and family for 4 years (assume 2 years each way) with lack of light and natural exercise plus the fact of being stuck with the same people cause depressive like symtoms in the astronauts.
E.g. Oversleeping, loss of appetite, general tiredness etc.
Would these symtoms actually be useful for a long Mars like trip or would it backfire with the astronauts freaking out?
Perhaps studies carried out of prisoners kept in near isolation with a borderline diet could give some pointers as to what to expect.
I thought that astronauts needed daily exercise to avoid bone and muscle loss.
Wouldn't sleeping during the trip be detrimental to their health?
Oh, and I don't thing that using small electric jolts to stimulate the muscles would work. There was a class action lawsuit against a company that sold such a device as exercise equipment because it didn't work. Repetitive arm movements to type and to use the mouse require more muscular strength than those devices produce but you don't see computer geeks (like me) with super strong forearms and wrists.
Cheers,
Adolfo
Or hibernate prisonners so they take less place, surveillance and don't appeal... reminds me of some movie from Spi*lerg and/or book from P. K. D*ck. Frightening ?
Induction of hibernation has a much more practical purpose here on earth -- organ transplant.
If we could force an ex-planted organ into hibernation, then we wouldn't have to rush around trying to get organs into people within 6-12 hrs (it is different for each organ type).
Hiberation may also inhibit the reperfusion injury that often complicates transplant as well.
That's just the obvious use of medical hiberation. We already know that somebody can not be declared dead until they are "cold and dead." This is because the many cases of people appearing to be brain dead --especially children-- who have a complete recovery after warming. (So if you are going to drown, please do so in a very cold lake.)
Imagine the day when people who are dying at home get placed into hiberation until they can be brought to the hospital and worked up. Instead of blindly trying treatments in the field, one could slow down the dying process until a cause of injury is found.
It has always amazed me that so many animals hiberate, but we can figure out how to translate that into humans.
I wonder what the dreams would be like in extended Hibernation. I get some crazy dreams sometimes, what happens when you don't wake up for a few weeks?
I wonder what stage of sleep you would be in, REM sleep? Or would it be a differege stage that has fewer dreams?
I'm really curious what the studies will find out about dreams in Hiberantion.
Brandon Petersen
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Perhaps there will be less hibernating time necessary, but this method wouldn't be controversial if the mission were to the nearest star...
That's right, make it a one-way trip! Without the return leg, it would be substantially less expensive. And of course, yes, only send those of sound mind who freely decide to go, knowing they won't come back, at least not on this ship.* For that matter, it might even be less expensive to also send unpersonned supply ships every few months to keep them alive and exploring indefinitely than to do just one 'standard' round trip mission. The amount learned about Mars would certainly be much greater with a permanent base for the first mission than with several round trips in the same timeframe.
* How to handle the public reaction, or whether to tell the public the truth, and other such PR stuff is beyond the scope of this comment.
Well, here goes my karma...
Tag lost or not installed.
we could do the research, but without an obvious need such as space flight creates, we generally wouldn't.
Uh huh. Because it's almost impossible to raise funds for medical research. There's just no demand for living longer and surviving incurable diseases, you see. And governments won't touch it with a bargepole; political suicide.
I don't buy this whole line of reasoning, to be honest. For one thing, it's misleading. The USA's Pentagon system shovels money into military tech in the hopes that something genuinely useful will fall out as a side-effect. And it often does, if only because a lot of military-funded research ends up being anything but military. But you can pump that money directly into civilian-oriented research instead. Japan's MITI used to do this (interestingly, their funding breakdown by tech segment was almost identical to the Pentagon's) and was rather more efficient in terms of ROI.
More importantly, though, I think it sets the arena of debate all wrong. It's not about the spin-offs, nice though they are. The Apollo project was IMO the single most heroic and awe-inspiring achievement in human history. It wasn't an R&D lab for non-stick frying pans. Defending it in those terms feels demeaning.
As for this particular problem, I suggest that instead of training humans to hibernate, NASA should consider training groundhogs to fly spaceships.
we could do the research, but without an obvious need such as space flight creates, we generally wouldn't
Hibernation has been of interest to physiologists, medical doctors, and biologists for a long time because it has lots of practical applications. Claiming that its "origin" is related to manned space travel is false advertising.
You may not realize it, but there's a world of difference between sitting in your house as opposed to really being isolated. If you were to be ill or injured, you could seek a doctor. If something broke down, you could call a handyman. If the pizza and soda guy had delivery problems, you could get food elsewhere.
In space, you can do none of those things. Even if you don't need them, the knowledge that you can't get them is a heavy burden. If the food supply broke down, you would starve and it'd be longer to deliver emergency rations to you than the most obscure third world country on earth. Hell, your air supply could break down and you'd suffocate.
In addition, putting a bunch of introverts together will quickly lead to disaster, as they are forced to live on top of eachother in cramped quarters. Nowhere to be alone. Nowhere to go. Every annoying characteristic of your co-travelers, you will have to deal with.
For this sort of mission, you would want people that are more like polar scientists, people who've had to endure real isolation. If you want to test your suggestion, a polar base is where you'd send them. I bet most wouldn't last a month.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
If the problem is not to have the astronauts go insane with boredom en route to Mars, may I suggest that computer games could go a long way towards this goal?
I've gone for days at a time, waking up, getting on my computer until I have to go to sleep, then sleeping and doing it again. I could porbably do it for months at a time if I had to. I could, in THEORY, even take short breaks to "do astronaut stuff" like checking systems and what not.
If NASA wants to fund some kind of "lock me in a room and play games" challenge, I'll participate. ; -)
The concept of hibernation is to get every system in the body to slow down. The muscles in your body deteriorate when you start to live sedentary because your system is still at full power. If you run your body at 1% and remain still your muscles will retain their strength and flexibility and still be useful when you are "rebooted".
My question is what happens to the brain when it is rebooted. Over hibernating animals we have a consciousness and where does that go when our brain is suspended? If it's purely biological then it will still be there, if it is something spiritual then who knows?