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Hands Down, Palm is Now Number Two

jamesl writes "InformationWeek reports that the number one PDA operating system now comes from Redmond, 48.1% last quarter (41.2% a year ago) compared to 29.8% (46.9% last year) for PalmSource. The big gainer was RIM, up to 19.8% from 4.9%. Linux ... a valient 0.9%, off slightly from last years' 1.9%. The article has some thoughts about where the market is going with phones taking on more PDA functions."

24 of 239 comments (clear)

  1. Re:Legal attacks soon? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think it was from the stagnation of palm. They had the number one spot for so long they rarely made any large changes to their os. When Microsoft came out with their os for mobile devices palm tried to catch up and wasnt able to

  2. Gartner's numbers are always suspect by jomas1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'd quote from the linked article but it seems to be slashdotted so I'll quote from an infosync article:

    http://www.infosyncworld.com/news/n/5526.html

    "It should be noted that these percentages apply only to the handheld market, which for the purposes of this study excludes the widely-popular palmOne Treo 600. The Treo line has had a long history of reclassification, and often bounces back and forth between different market categories in different studies."

    Gartner has had a long history of producing studies that suggest Palm is losing to Microsoft. Their latest tactic seems to be to exclude the best selling Palm product from their studies.

    1. Re:Gartner's numbers are always suspect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why do moderators mod something like this informative without a link to the poster's source?

  3. Business Practice by catwh0re · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Business success has more to do with partnerships and deals, in reality, both OSs are adequate for use as a PDA, so it's really just what kind of business deals that each company can secure.

  4. Time to port ReactOS to SH4/MIPS/Xscale by isolation · · Score: 1, Insightful

    As it seems the world wants to run a Windows like OS on mobile chips. If they want a Win32 like OS then we should give them a free one.

    --
    Free Unix? Free Windows. http://www.reactos.com
  5. my opinions by fred87 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm an enthusiastic linux user and advocate (and a kde developer), however I don't think Linux, or Windows is the right OS for a PDA.

    They were designed for intel processors, multitasking was a requirement, and various other design factors optimising them for "normal" computers.

    PalmOS, however, is optimized for handhelds, doesn't do multitasking (I don't know about palm OS 5) simply because it's not neccesary on a PDA, and has one of the most intuitive interfaces i've seen. Also, PalmOS leaves me loads of space on my 2MB Zire for all of my data (several hundred contacts), and the entire new testament (seriously). I really doubt Windows could run with so little storage, and with Linux, there really wouldn't be that much room for data.

    1. Re:my opinions by Cheeze · · Score: 4, Insightful

      why would you think a PDA wouldn't need to multitask? I want a PDA that I can leave my mp3s playing in the background while i compose a document or spreadsheet. I don't want the whole device to freeze while it checks my mail.

      Storage also is not an issue anymore, since flash memory prices have dropped so much it's like a $5 difference between including 64MB and 256MB.

      If you're just looking for something to store contacts and text files, you can get a brand new Sharp YO-P20 Handheld Organizer for about $20. If you want a small, portable computer that will allow you to do most of your desktop functions quickly and relatively cheaply, buy an IPaQ or Dell Axim.

      Getting a PDA only for storing contacts is WAY overkill.

      Note: I'm a Dell Axim owner. There's just something cool about being able to be outside mowing the lawn while streaming mp3s over 802.11 to a small device in my pocket.

      --
      Why read the article when I can just make up a snap judgement?
    2. Re:my opinions by EddWo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think multitasking is a requirement even on mobile phones and certainly on PDAs. I want to be able to switch between perhaps a browser, an RSS reader and a game while I wait for data to be transfered over GPRS. I'd also want to be able to play an MP3 in the background at the same time. Fortunately my Symbian phone, a Nokia 6600 can do this quite well. I'd never want a FDA that couldn't.

      --
      "Taligent is still pure vapor. Maybe they'll be the last who jumps up on Openstep... "
  6. It's no surprise by exp(pi*sqrt(163)) · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Palm (the two halves) must be the worst example of complacency I have ever seen. For a start they frequently release hardware, after a long period, that is the tiniest incremental improvement from previous hardware.

    They're still releasing devices with PalmOS 5 which is the saddest apology for an operating system I have seen. Writing PalmOS GUI code is hard - there are so many legacy features you need to check for and deal with. It's clear that the whole thing has just accreted without planning over the years. The current schizophrenia between 68000 and ARM is a nightmare with the worse endianness horrors you've ever seen. I won't even mention proper OS features like memory management, multi-threading and so on.

    Customers have been begging for proper wireless support on Palms for a long time and Palm have failed to deliver. A device, today, without at least 802.11b, is a dinosaur before it's born. What the hell are the Palm engineers doing over there?

    The software that delivers with the Palm is a little pathetic. Not even a file browser. And main memory has a completely flat file hierarchy so that even with a file browser it's hard to find what you want. No word processor (well, there's an awful 3rd party thing).

    It's no surprise they're losing the war. But it needn't have been like this. They had the advantage. And they simply sat on their laurels.

    --
    Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
    1. Re:It's no surprise by Billly+Gates · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What I see here is Palm is dying.

      Not in a troll sense but they laid off a good number of people after the .com bomb and a year ago they were trading in at close to $.60 a share!

      Now they need to improve the palm yet do not have hte resources to do so.

      Netscape and wordperfect met the same fate when MS undersold them and had exclusive deals with OEM's. They had to cut the price and lay off the workforce. After that they no longer had the resources to improve their product.

      Its sad but I think their lack of innovation that you mentioned shows how behind the times they are and how they are struggling.

    2. Re:It's no surprise by ozbird · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What did Netscape do to get around the resource problem? They open sourced (is that a verb?) Netscape which begat Mozilla, and with Firefox they look like they have a winner. Palm should follow suit - if they are dying, they don't have much to lose and potentially so much to gain.

  7. Microsoft Office is killing palm... by Not_Wiggins · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I think there's a huge segment of the handheld users that are project managers, managers, analysts, etc. These people depend on (because of market penetration) Microsoft products such as Excel, Word, Project, and Outlook.

    It would make sense that the the most popular "take with you" version of these would be on a PocketPC running Microsoft CE.

    If Palm had wanted to remain on the top, they'd have had to offer *seamless* integration with these products, but how can they when they're competing with the company that MAKES them?

    This is the a great example of how a monopoly can be used to extend into another market via a "one-off" mechanism.

    --
    Diplomacy is the art of saying, "Nice doggie!" until you can find a rock.
  8. Linux is the future. by Guylhem · · Score: 5, Insightful

    RIM Blackberry is strong, but IMHO that's only due to 2 things:
    - a keyboard
    - an easy to use system
    - unmetered email

    Ie. it tries to serve customers instead of thinking about milking them dry. Not that it's not they long term goal (maybe) but they provide a decent service for a decent fee.

    But that's just a functionnality-based success. Any WinCE, Palm or Zaurus call plan which would offer the same functionnality would quickly become as big. Time to think about new functions too - say unmetered instant messenging (like SMS but free!)

    Note to cell phone operators : stop thinking about milking your customers dry. Start thinking about offering services, such as voip roaming (ie if my cellphone finds a wifi network, use sipphone instead of $lousy_gsm_provider - especially when roaming abroad !)

    This is IMHO the key to success. Then whatever hardware or operating system that goes along, if it is not too lousy, will grow.

    The Zaurus 6000 could have become big. The user interface needed only minor tweaking. If only it had had GSM built it (smartphone like) + some good voip software + a call plan where email and instant messenging would have been free...

    The market is lagging not because of lack of functionnality or technical capabiliies (GPRS makes possible to receive calls at the same time you have a data connection on a multiplex-capable GSM phone) but only because a shared monopoly between shitty operators prevent this innovation from appearing. "what if it eats my profits?" is wrong spririt. With the same mentality horseless carriage ie cars would have never existed. "it will eat every competitor alive and grow my market share and thus skyrocket my profits" is right.

    Where's entrepreunership and risk taking? I just see deep-coma business !

    That's free advice from a disgruntled french cellphone customer.

  9. Did anyone expect less? by gal1264 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Obviously competing on a closed source basis with microsoft is hopeless. The market brought out a viable competitor to windows in linux despite the governments hapless efforts. hopefully we'll see some legitamte copmetition that will better the market and people won't wine too much.

  10. Very different when smartphones, Symbian included by Burz · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Remember smartphones, the growing market segment (unlike the shrinking PDA segment)?

    "2003 was a breakout year for mobile operating system vendor Symbian Software, which shipped 6.67 million operating systems worldwide--an 88 percent market share of advanced OS-based handset sales. Before 2003, the Symbian OS was resident on only five handset models--all but one from Nokia. At the end of 2003, the number of Symbianbased handsets remained modest, at 11 models from four vendors, with five more scheduled for launch in the first quarter of 2004."

    http://www.researchandmarkets.com/reportinfo.asp ?r eport_id=222287&t=e&cat_id=20

    http://www.mobilemonday.net/mm/story.php?id=3884

  11. Palm did it to themselves by geg81 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This one Palm did to themselves. Palm had half a dozen years to turn PalmOS into a modern, reliable 32bit operating system, instead they are still shipping handhelds that emulate bits and pieces of an old 68k design, don't multitask properly, and make it hard allocate more than 64k at a time. Apparently, PalmOS 6 has been released, but neither PalmOne nor Sony are even bothering to make handhelds with it; it's too little too late. The only thing that has kept the platform alive is the fact that there are lots of good applications for it and that kept the original GUI more or less intact.

    All Microsoft had to do is show up to the party. WinCE isn't a great operating system, but it's a lot better than PalmOS. The thing that has been holding PocketPC back is its awful UI.

    My hope would be that PalmOne (the hardware part of Palm) explores some new ideas: Symbian is a great system they could ship right away, or they could adopt one of the Linux-based PDA environments and port a PalmOS emulation layer to that to run all the Palm legacy applications.

  12. Not quite the end yet by GarfBond · · Score: 3, Insightful

    While this is bad news for Palm, it's not so bad in that this really just reflects their current strategy: stay in the PDA business, but don't break the bank on it. They believe convergent devices are a huge part of their future (they're already selling 2 different treo models, and are definitely going to continue making more), and who's to blame them? Nowadays, I don't want to carry two devices when I can only carry one. If bluetooth had taken off more in US cellphones (thank you very much Verizon) then we might be seeing a different picture, but as it is, the PDA market is considered dead and/or stagnant.

    "A decline in Palm OS shipments was expected in the third quarter of 2004, but not of this magnitude," Mr. Kort said. "The company is pouring the vast majority of its resources into its smartphone business. A reduction in the number of PDA models palmOne offers is expected in 2005."

    Most certainly bad for Palm, but not quite a deathknell. Another two aspects of trickery in this report: this only includes numbers of units *shipped,* not numbers of units *sold.* There is indeed a difference. I'm sure that PalmOne sold less devices in this quarter, but I'm pretty sure these numbers don't include much in the way of the new T5 (meaning it's likely people were still waiting to see what new stuff Palm would have) and who's to say that there isn't a backlog of iPaqs sitting in some warehouse somewhere, waiting to be sold?

    Link to another article with the same numbers: http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=72 98

  13. You've got to be kidding me... by WIAKywbfatw · · Score: 3, Insightful

    PalmOS is nowhere near as clunky as Windows CE.

    For one thing, PalmOS has got a much simpler and more elegant user interface than its rival (Why the hell would anyone think that a desktop metaphor is suitable for a PDA?) and for another it's far faster than it too.

    When I'm looking up an address or want to enter a quick note then I don't want to have to navigate through a menu system to get there first and wait while everything happens.

    The key advantage PocketPCs have over Palms is the Microsoft factor: just as it has with other markets (eg, web browsers), Microsoft has leveraged its dominance in one market (desktop OS) to achieve success in another.

    To suggest that PocketPCs are intrinsically superior to equivalent Palm models is hilarious.

    If I were a tad more paranoid, I'd suggest that your comment and one or two others like it I've seen posted about this story were classic cases of astroturfing.

    --

    "Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
    1. Re:You've got to be kidding me... by timeOday · · Score: 3, Insightful
      I think there's more to it than astroturfing. My latest PDA is a (palm-based) Clie TH55 which is a pretty nice piece of hardware. With built-in camera, microphone, and Wifi, it just seems brimming with possibilities (not just off-color ones either).

      But the OS just isn't there. I was going to start writing apps for it, but most of the cool features are supported through Sony-specific API extensions to PalmOS. With sony out of the market (the TH55 is discontinued) that's a dead end. I looked for Palm's API's, and it seems to be a mess - the various palm-based devices use different extensions for the same thing, and finding info on them is hard.

      Finally I asked my office mate about it. He develops Palm software on the side. He said to ensure quality you have to posess each target device, because each has its own quirks and the emulator isn't accurate. That killed it for me.

      There's a bright side to more PC-like handhelds - they're much more likely to get Linux ports. I love the idea of a small, sleek, Linux-based PDA, but the commercial market isn't there and it won't happen. The Zaurus is just too big and heavy, whereas the smaller iPaqs are even quite a bit thinner than the Tungsten T3.

      Finally, I should add that I recently tried a co-worker's new IPaq and the handwriting recognition blows away anything I've seen for the Palm.

    2. Re:You've got to be kidding me... by Imbalance · · Score: 2, Insightful

      ya know, i've been reading over a lot of these posts and very few people here seem to have ever used both sides... I sell the things (palm and pocketpc devices, blackberrys etc.) and have plenty of experience with all of them. And to tell you the truth, PocketPC does blow Palm out of the water. Now before all of you palm diehards flip out and get huffy, let me explain!

      Firstly, learning curve for new users is WAY lower on a pocketPC. Why? because its SO much like their windows desktop (yes yes yes, i know not everyone uses windows, but come on folks, MOST people use it, and the people who are BUYING the things are MOSTLY NEW users...so the fact holds). I consider myself a good honest (non commision based) salesman/tech nerd, and I usually take the time to talk to my customers and walk them through features and such and let THEM drive the thing and see which THEY like better. By far, ALL new users I talk to prefer the Ipaqs, and most people who had previous handhelds (palm based) usually switch over, and DIE HARDS are about 50/50 change over. I personally have had palms since way back in the day, and I have switched over to ipaqs. I just bought a rx3115 and am about to upgrade to the 3715 (cheap too, perks of selling em...) But the point is, its FAMILIAR, and people don't like to learn a lot.

      Secondly, its NOT slow, whoever keeps touting the "low speed" of pocketpc devices is obviously using one of the "value" brands. I don't have hardly any wait times, I barely notice any slow downs, and when i DO, i just stop other programs in the background.

      Third, BUILT IN hand writing recognition. OMG palm can not touch the ease of use of a properly "trained" transcriber. "but my graffiti is soooo fast now" yeh and you had to LEARN how to write all over again just to use it. Why do that when you can write just as fast and in full words/sentences like paper which ALL people are used to? again, low/no learning curve.

      4th, BETTER program organization. I am sick of hearing palm die-hards tout the "easy" icon menu in palm. ok so it has sets of icon? wooohoo. how annoying is it to have to open a program and scroll or click around to find out what you have scheduled for that day? PPC devices show you on the "today" screen anything you wanna know. WITHOUT a plugin! again, easy and quick. Then the stuff you want to run is right on your start menu, JUST like your home computer. Again, just what you are used to. the parent to this said:

      "When I'm looking up an address or want to enter a quick note then I don't want to have to navigate through a menu system to get there first and wait while everything happens."

      what handheld were YOU using? on mine i just have to CUT IT ON, and hey whaddaya know right on the main screen are my appointments for the day, ONE click and im looking at my calender. wanna look up a person? press the contact list button, DONE, theres the list and a MUCH more organized screen with quick access letters across the top. (also, no group limit, so i can organize and label to my hearts content...unlike palm) The fact of the matter is, to do ANYTHING on a palm actually requires more user effort than on a PPC (assuimg you dont just keep your icon list on "all" all the time. and even then ya gotta scroll through a list of crap to find what ya want.)

      5th, memory and price. Ok i KNOW i'm starting a war with this comment, but you GET more space for your buck with a ppc. ok now here comes the folks saying BUT PPC programs are BIGGER so it doesn't even out. I KNOW THIS, but honestly the palm programs are catching up fast and nearly the same average size now. Not to mention that the way the PPC deals with expansion cards is more direct and faster than with palm.

      6th CONTROL! how annoying is it to want to put a certain file from your computer into the file system on your palm and YOU CAN'T without going through quite a lot of anoyance. With PPC you have FULL file folder control and can stick anything anywhere. Just a moment ago I transfered some mp3s (don't tel

  14. Re:Convergence by AgentCharlieBrown · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Haven't hacked the Palm OS, but I've developed applications for PPC using eMbedded Visual Tools. and some embedded applications for different platforms using the GNU toolchain. I've not developed anything for PalmOS, BUT I've a clear perspective that's based in the comparison of being a power user of both platforms. POINT No.1: Almost all apps I use to have in PPC I've them now in Palm. Man... it's sad... the difference is huge in aspects such as graphical presentation, switching between apps, theme handling. I conclude that the OS is not really a multi-tasking environment. POINT No.2: The filesystem. That approach of everything being a pdb man... my grandmother would have changed that since v3 of the OS!!!! On the other side PPC uses a simple FAT filesystem, any kid could upload an mp3 to the handheld. It's not that easy when you have to convert everything to a pdb format!!! POINT No.3 PPC is always ahead in hardware performance (I know that's not free, the point is that the OS is ahead in running on more roboust hardware).

  15. Re:Not at all surprising by Doppler00 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    exactly what it needs to do very well.

    Maybe the problem is the market is already saturated with Palm's that do exactly what their owners need to do? I mean, why would you buy a new palm if it has the same features you already have?

    The advantage Microsoft has is that PocketPC hardware has followed Moore's law, and thus there is an insentive for consumers to keep purchasing new devices. By the same token, Moore's law has reduced the cost of the hardware (and end product) for Palms (the low end models) to such a level that it probably isn't nearly as profitable anymore. You can't even compare PocketPC's and Palm devices anymore, they are so much different from eachother in what they do it's unfair.

  16. Re:serious problem with this article by vhold · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That's serious? Would you believe that even more then half a percent of Pocket PC users have done that?

  17. Re:I switched from a Palm to an iPod by mrchaotica · · Score: 3, Insightful

    And I just bought a Palm, since the iPod only displays stuff -- I need to input, too. You have no idea how badly I wish there was a way to do input on the iPod (while still using Apple's software -- Linux doesn't count)!

    --

    "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz