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Getting an IT Job in Europe as an American
IvanHo asks: "I'm looking for success stories, hints, tips and tricks from any Slashdot readers with U.S. citizenship that have managed to find gainful employment in Europe. For various reasons, my wife and I would like to spend a couple years working in Europe -- preferably Southern Europe. For the last couple months, I have been applying for IT positions there with no luck. Although, my wife grew up in Rome and her family is there now, she is a U.S. citizen, so that well trodden route to a work permit is unavailable. Any advice? I'm trying to avoid incorporating and transferring myself if possible."
"My resume is fairly strong and I've had a couple companies express interest until they realized that I would require sponsorship to work in the EU. Given the number of H1 folks I work with day in and day out, I'm starting to wonder if it isn't harder to get a visa to work in Europe than it is here. I've noticed that even American companies are posting prior right to work in a country as a prerequisite for employment. Language is a possible problem, but I do know a couple European languages beyond English -- Portuguese and French."
Tell your prospective employer's that you're a Canadian. You will probably get more interviews at elast, even if you fail subsequent background checks .... ;-)
gus
.. if only.
I did it in Australia. With that rather large caveat in mind, I'm going to tell you my story anyway, in case you can pull a little inspiration out of it.
All my life I'd wanted to move to Australia, but hadn't been too proactive about it. I met a girl online back in 1999 who was from Australia, and in addition to her being extremely freaking cool, she lived in Australia. So I decided that if things kept going well with her that I'd move there. The did, so I did. Before I moved though, I got in touch with some immigration folks there, folks that run businesses for the express purpose of migrating in folks that wanted to live in Australia. His main modus operandi was marriage, but I wasn't ready for that just yet.
I poured myself over newsgroups about immigration into Australia, reading every post, answering questions where I could, etc. I learned a hell of a lot in a very short amount of time. I decided that my best bet was to just go there and try to find work after I got there. I was lucky enough to be hired by Yahoo! a couple weeks later. They sponsored me on what was to be a class-457 Business visa, that allowed me to work for one employer and live in Australia. My visa was for 2 years, but could easily be extended, and only cost me AUD$150 (my employer paid for most of it).
After I lived in Australia for a while (this part you'll be interested in) I found out about places that act as temp-agencies for out-of-countrymen. They would sponsor you, and they would pay you, but you would be hired out to various places for 6 months to a year at a time. You were in constant employment, but your gigs were short. I think this could be an option for you, especially if you can speak Italian.
Hit the newsgroups, read read read read read read all you can about immigration law, find some immigration lawyers and suck every word out of them that you can before they want money, and just live and breathe the Italian immigration process. Soon folks will approach you with options that I've not experienced and that neither of us have imagined. There is a way, I guarantee it.
Your wife, unless Italy disallows it, could become a dual-citizen. She could become a citizen of Italy and the US, with all the privileges of each and zero downside. Since you're married to her you could get two passports as well, and live in each country as long as you wished, with or without a job. This is probably the most robust option, but would probably take the longest time to set up. If you're patient, and dual-citizenship is an option, I would go this way.
I know this post is all over the spectrum, I'm not a good writer. But I hope something in here has given you an idea. The only thing between you and Italian employment is time. You'll get there if you really want to.
I've been living and working in Europe for about nine years now, and it's probably one of the best moves I've ever made.
You WILL need a work permit and sponsorship from an employer, but this is a lot easier than an H1B.
You WILL need to make this a 100% commitment and start living like a European rather than an American abroad. Above all realize that the world does not revolve around the United States and not everyone speaks English.
In return you'll get a more relaxed lifestyle, better living conditions and a better public transport system.
Ed Almos
Budapest, Hungary
The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws. - Tacitus, 56-120 A.D.
There are a number of reasons:
:)
:) but it all depends on your settings of course.
1. The pay will be higher, the taxes lower. (Though your Italian counterparts will get 6 weeks vacation to your measly 2-3
2. Less paperwork and other hoops to jump through. Many EU countries can't hire an international unless they have exhausted all local options. I love Italy, but the paperwork, bureaucracy, and laissez faire attitude of governmental agencies will put you in gulag even if you speak perfect Italian. Even then, your prospective employer will probably need to be DESPERATE to hire you to advocate on your behalf.
3. They may be more willing to overlook your language difficulties (not that you said you had any, but if so, they may view your technical skills as more important criteria than your italian skills.)
I've noticed a number of firms in the Netherlands, for example, have many internationals working in the office, so for simplicity, they just speak english at work. But then again, the dutch on average speak 3+ languages better than the average American speaks english, but that's another story. It's not so in Italy. MANY people speak Italian only and maybe they can communicate in a similar Romance language (Spanish, French). I've noticed younger people speak more english, as do women (something about them doing a bit better in school than men
I would also check out UK employment sites, they sometime serve as a gateway for English speakers looking for IT work in the EU. Most of the employment agencies will have more staffing in their UK offices, and probably have divisions within them for various EU countries.
I wanted to move to the UK and did my research on the internet, found some openings. But no one wanted to speak to me from half of the world away.
I figured what the heck and decided to go there for a visit. I got a visitor's visa and flew there. Spend a month just travelling and getting used to the country. Then I went in search of a job. It took me about 3 months. Eventually I found 2 agencies that specializes in my field of work. Got 2 interviews which resulted in a pretty good offer. I accepted.
The company sponsored me for a work visa. They had to prove that they couldn't find a UK citizen, nor an EU person to fill the position. That didn't take any time at all since they did have a job posting in the trade paper for a couple weeks.
The company filed the paperwork and I got a visa and started to work in a week.
So, as I was saying. The important thing is to get the job and agencies are very useful for that. There are a lot more agencies in UK than here and they seemed to be very specialized. The tough part was finding the right agency actually. I spent a lot of time in internet cafes and going through a lot of newspaper and phonebooks trying to find one in my field.
I would say work visa isn't nearly as hard to get in UK as it is in US.
I hope my experience is of use to you in Southern Europe. I should point out that the British sometimes don't consider themselves as Europeans. Still I would think the rules are similar.
Good luck! and enjoy the slow pace and long vacations you get there!
After college, I picked up with a Dutch software firm and went over. The connection was made by a history prof of mine who knew the HR director. It was a funny situation, but it worked out well.
It was the best thing I ever did. However, I found that switching jobs was damn near impossible due to language and permit issues. I worked for an international firm that worked in English and, as a result, had decent conversational Dutch, but poor technical Dutch.
I recommend you look into your wife regaining citizenship in Italy. If for no other reason that the US allows dual citizenships and your kids will probably thank you for it.
That also means you have a lot easier time of finding work over there.
It's best not to think of Europe as a country. Remember 'southern Europe' is actually a collection of different countries with vastly different cultures, laws and, in most cases, languages. It would be better to say 'I want to work in Italy, Spain, Portugal, Southern France, Hungary, Romania, Greece, etc', all of which could be viewed by some people as 'southern Europe' and all of which have different cultures and laws.
The reality is that you will be hard-pressed to find employment anywhere in Europe unless you can demonstrate a real reason for them to have you over many other people from their own company (non multi-nationals are unlikely to have appropriate tax expertise for example). Your best bet would be to find some country which has limited local talent but is developping rapidly, some of the East-Europe countries for example, but in all cases look into the particular country in question.
The rampant anti-Americanism in Europe at the moment might be a problem too.
Rich
the only problem with this is that most jobs require a secret clearance. and most companies are unwilling to sponsor you for one. The best way to play this out is to go to the middle east (say kuwait... kuwait hasn't had a death in 2 years) and get a clearance there (believe me.. they hand them out like political yard signs)... stay there for one year.. do a good job... then go to europe or italy with a secret clearance. In addition, you won't have to pay german taxes if the US says your job cannot be taken by a German because of the clearance status... bonus all around.
b
Plus Spain is a monarchy. What's the point of living in Europe if you don't even get to have a king?
Italians try to live vicariously through the pope, but it just isn't the same...
I don't know how hard it is to get a permit in the EU, but (at least as of the late '80s) it is quite difficult to get a foot in the door in the UK. I have a friend who worked as an ESL (English as a 2nd Language) teacher in London, but he worked illegally. Regardless of the high number of illegal workers (white collar workers especially) in England, since they aren't registered with the Home Office in any official way, they have no particular advantages being recognized in the EU proper.
Work permits for non-EU citizens are not transportable within the EU AFAIK. It is true though that some EU countries have rather flexible laws for granting citizenships through ancestry, even after a generation has been skipped. An American could use that if eligible, and then leverage EU citizenship to get a work permit anywhere in the EU.
I know of an American who got a Canadian passport somehow, just so that she could benefit from Australia's 1 year Work-Vacation program, which does not include the US.
I am a U.S. Citizen working in Budapest, Hungary for IBM (SQL monkey). If you're serious about this, have as much lined up and in place prior to coming - it's going to take time. Granted each country is different (though I'm not sure how the EU calculates into things as Hungary just joined in May), but regardless of where you go, it's going to take time. Hell, the US takes a good long time too. Also, IIRC be aware that any income over $80,000/year income will be taxed both by the country you are in and the IRS when you return to the states (I think I remember reading this somewhere on the Embassy's website, though it might've been the IRS site).
Clean up your CV, add fluent languages as skills, etc.
Step 1 is finding a company willing to handle the paperwork and costs involved. Other markets might be better, but it took me over 5 months in Hungary - mainly because I don't speak Hungarian, but also because I'm American.
Once this is done, there is usually a waiting period where the company must present the position to the government to see if there is someone suitable within the country to fulfill the position. This, at least in Hungary, can take up to 60 days before the final decision to award a work permit can take place, possibly adding to the length of time. My work permit required my Passport, diploma (HS or College), paperwork showing residence, offer letter and some other work provided by PricewaterhouseCoopers (they were handling the entire affair with IBM).
Step 2 is aquiring a Work Visa or some other kind of visa that will allow you to work in the country. This usually requires that a work permit already be issued.
Step 3 then involves the rest of the paper work - Social Security Cards, Temporary and Permanent Housing Card, Tax ID Card. I've been legally employed since September 1 and have been given the Tax ID Card and the Temp Housing Card. I need the Permanent Housing Card before I can be issued the SS Card even though I'm already paying Social Security.
In all, from Interview 2, when they took all my documents, to actual hire date, it took 7 months and I'm still not completely done.
I will have to go through this again in July/August (it is supposed to be easier the 2nd time around), as the first work permit is issued for 360 days and my Work Visa expires the day prior to my hire date anniversary. My second permit & visa will be issued for 365 days. I've been told that after 2006, I will be able to obtain a work permit that will be valid for 5-7 years, afterwhich I need to obtain something similar to temporary citizenship.
Experiences in other countries, particularly those that have been EU states for some time will probably have an easier time (maybe, I'm not sure), however I will say that it has been one of the most difficult hirings I've ever imagined having.
On second thought, my fiancee (the reason I'm here in the first place) is going to have an even more difficult time getting permanent residence in the US after we're married, so maybe it's not too bad afterall.
I can confirm that this point of view is the polar opposite of the Hungarian Consulate in Vienna. I had to go around her and go straight to the top to get my Work Visa issued which was already confirmed to be accepted back in Budapest (I just needed to go through the proper channel to have it issued) because:
"I'm sick and tired of all these god damned Americans trying to do whatever they can to get themselves into my country!"
6+ hours later, talking to the Vice Ambassador and Ambassador via phone, we got an apology and the paperwork.
Also, it's not all pretty roses in general. Many people give you weird looks if you just look American and will have fevered attitude because of it, without saying a word. Granted, there are times that your statemnet might be correct, but please - don't count it as bullshit when it does actually happen.
Work permits are are transportable in the EU if you have a permanent residency card which is the same thing as the US green card.
bullshit.
after 8 years of living in germany you can apply for a sitizenship.
got mine that way.
also people born here can obtain german sitizenship.
Conservatism: The fear that somewhere, somehow, someone you think is your inferior is being treated as your equal.
I am from the US and live in Italy, and can confirm. I have some stories about it here: http://www.dedasys.com/padovachronicles/
You, as an American, Canadian, Australian, Japanese or whatever... are the equivalent of migrant worker here to pick tomatoes, even if you have a degree, even if you have no intention of being a burden on the social system. Of course, the US is really lame too. A friend's brother was supposed to go work for nVidia, who wanted to hire him and pay him a lot of money, but since he had no degree yet, nothing doing, it was not possible.
Your best bet is to come spend some time and see if you can find a job, because no one is going to hire you from afar. Then you will have to go back to the US and wait months for your permit.
In reality, where does this leave you? You need to just live here illegally and be done with it. Italy has so many laws on the books that no one really pays attention to them anymore. Heck, the prime minister is on trial for bribing judges and people still vote for him.
The big, big *however* is that you wouldn't get so bitter if it were not such a wonderful place. In some ways it's so much nicer than in the US. I went out for a drink with my friends this evening. No being carded (how stupid is that - you have to be 21 to drink a glass of alcohol, even though you can go to iraq and drive a tank at 18?!), not having any problems being in the piazza with a glass of alcohol. And there is a stunning variety - we went up to Bolzano for their 'Linux Day' last weekend, up in the middle of the stunningly beautiful dolomites. Then you have Rome, Florence, Venice (I live a half hour from Venice), and so many beautiful small towns that are what I really prefer to the large tourist centers.
Anyway... I don't know. Spain is doing better than Italy right now. Its politicians are more credible, and seem serious about fixing problems rather than just bickering. The food isn't as good as in Italy, but it's still a beautiful country as well, and who knows, maybe they treat foreigners less like dirt - "curious.com" is right that even renting an appartment will be difficult. Many people don't want to rent to a 'suspicious' foreigner, or really even people from another region of Italy.
On the other hand, I wouldn't complain if I didn't love it, I would just leave. But my life is here, including my fiancee`...
http://www.welton.it/davidw/
It's not easy. Pretty much no one here will consider you unless you already have your working papers and you're fully legal to work in Spain. Pretty much there are enough qualified British and Irish people showing up looking for better weather, working hours, looking to be with spouses etc. that there's little incentive to bother sponsoring when there are so many other people here.
Also, forget about trying to get a job here without being here. It's one of those things that is technically possible, but you're talking close to lottery odds. Either you find a way to get here and get here legally, or forget it. Sorry man, I'm here now, and it's not easy. However, I wanted it enough that I am here. If you want it, make it happen. That said, in Spain, go to Barcelona if you want to work. Madrid is an awesome city, but Barcelona seems more serious about everything and the economy seems better. Just an observation since I've only lived in Madrid.
I won't speak for the rest of Europe, but Spain is tough going. Remember, unemployment here is extensive and there are lots of Europeans competing with you for those jobs. Leverage the English angle, as much as Americans are being told that the entire world loathes them (it doesn't) everyone here wants to speak English and every employer wants fluent English employees. Also, if you don't speak Spanish well, right there, 80% of your employability vanishes.
Just laying it out for you. Hope this helps.
Seriously. I forgot. I have a couple of Republican friends here and their number one complaint about Spain is that everyone just assumes that you're going to be ashamed of Bush and you'll want to join along in the Bush bashing. If you're the type who'll defend Bush, or one of those My Country Right or Wrong types, be prepared for long awkward pauses in conversation, outright hostility or people looking at you like you're a cretin. Europeans don't hate Americans. Seriously. But they hate Bush with the white-hot burning intensity of ten thousand suns. Either join in in the effigy burning, or learn to stay away from political conversations.
I wish were kidding here. Mod me as Flamebait if you want, but I'm here on the ground and I'm calling it like I see it.
Are you suggesting that transit infrastructure in North America is lacking? I mean, Seattle has a two stop monorail that serves a city of more than three million people. Are you daring to suggest that is somehow inadequate?
501 Not Implemented
OK, getting away from all the Xenophobes around here, I've got some real advice for you: it's bloody difficult. I've been trying every avenue I can find, and keep hitting brick walls, and I'm from NZ so I have a head start on most nationalities (nobody hates us :-). There's this woman, see... Yep, old story, but she's The One. I can't get a Work Permit for her country (Belgium), and I won't be some sponge taking advantage of her, nor will I do it illegally, and it's way too early to be talking of tying the knot, so for now I'm stuck over in Australia trying to reach the ONLY way I've found to get myself in.
:-), I'm targeting the UK. I'm over 30, so working holidays are out. I'm in IT, so fast track visas or standard sponsorships are out. That leaves the UK Skilled Migrants program. Bascially if you have a bachelors degree, 5 years experience in a job requiring that degree, and earned over GBP40,000 in the last 12 months, then you get a Migrants Visa with no sponsorship or guaranteed job required and no restrictions on whom you work for while in the UK. I'm 7 months towards the earning my 40k, only 5 months to go...
Anyway, being only English speaking (but working on my Dutch
You don't say what your occupation is, I'm guessing you're IT as well, but if you or your wife were a teacher or a nurse or a doctor, then you could write your own ticket to just about any country on the planet. Check out the other Shortage Occupations for the UK to see who can be fast-tracked.
If you insist on Southern Europe, language is a HUGE problem, if you don't speak the local, don't expect to be welcomed with open arms. Pick a country, learn the lingo, visit their embassy to quiz the staff, and keep your eyes open for any opportunity that comes your way, not just normal work (charity volunteer, study programs, etc).
As I used to joke with a mate of mine who scored a Greek passport through his parents, an unemployable goat-herder from the Greek islands can move anywhere in EU he likes to beg on the streets, but a highly skilled, motivated, committed, tax-paying, law-abiding want-to-be-a-citizen like me can't even get a foot in the door...
John.
According to The Economist this could change soon: and to the US's detriment.
In short, because the dollar is used as the reserve currency by a lot of countries the US is effectively in the position to be able to write cheques that are accepted for payment but are never cashed. However US policy (borrow, borrow, borrow and devlue the dollar so you owe less) means that this is likely to change soon. After all: would you accept a cheque today that know will be worth 30% less tomorrow? In fact its already happening: the Euro and Yen are both attracting people whom 5 years ago would have gone for the dollar. Once it starts in earnest the dollar will collapse practically overnight: there's over ELEVEN TRILLION dollars in uncashed cheques out there...
Bad analogies are like waxing a monkey with a rainbow.
I'm a Brit who visits USA quite often (holidays, every couple of years) and we always buy lots of stuff there..
And that's so *before* you take into account the US exchange rate issue. Mind you, if you get paid in Euros or Pounds sterling you might do well if the dollar drops again... or not.
You know, whenever I read stuff like this and see the use of England instead of the UK, GB or whatever the credibility of the post just disappears - if there was any in the first place that is.