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Australian Police Given Power To Use Spyware
reek writes "An Australian newspaper has reported> that the contentious Surveillance Devices Act has been passed. The act will (according to the article) allow Federal Police to obtain warrants to secretly install spyware onto users computers enabling them to "monitor email, online chats, word processor and spreadsheets entries and even bank personal identification numbers and passwords.""
As long as they need to obtain a warrant first, I don't see the big deal.
What doesn't kill you only delays the inevitable
I may be a little off topic on this, wont Anti-Spyware like Giant and Adaware find this? and if properly configured wont they also see them being installed??
-DrMyke
"mmmmmmmmm, doughnuts" - H.J.Simpson; super genius
I'm sure this power won't ever get abused.
I think simply having Linux would make yourself (at least for now) immune.
liqbase
How do they expect to install this software? Send you some spam and hope you click on the link?
I think simply having Linux would make yourself (at least for now) immune.
Please keep in mind that these are the police. They are not some random script kiddy, and would focus much more strongly on your computer. It also means that they probably already got a warrent to search your house and will have physical access to your computer. And my guess is that they will be able to take control of your computer in as much time as it takes to boot (not saying how to not encourage moron kiddies). And since you think your so secure, you wouldn't even think to check.
Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
If you're an alert user, and you find this task running on your machine, and you remove it...
Are you guilty of the Australian version of Obstruction of Justice?
If so, you could commit a serious crime by simply running a spyware scanner.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
I also use 448bit Blowfish encryption.
If I forget my passphrase, no matter how pissed the cops ge, it doesn't really make a difference.
Now, if their spyware had keylogged the phrase the last time I decrypted....
DAMN YOU OCTODOG! DAMN YOU TO HELL!
Someone please tell me ... that having software
that (knowingly or unknowingly) blocks or removes
this spyware isn't a crime...
Well, of course it would count as a crime! Probably as simple as "tampering with evidence", but it wouldn't surprise me if they invented a special category of crime, over which we have no control, to deal with (for example) AdAware detecting and removing such software.
But... Why on Earth would you want to remove it?
Just fake it out, and you have carte blanche to commit whatever crimes you want, with the state's own "evidence" of your whereabouts to clear you at any given time...
"And how do you suppose my client committed this crime, when your own activity logs show him viewing... Um... homoerotic goat porn??? at the time of the crime?"
As an aside relating back to my first paragraph, I personally run AntiVir for precisely that reason... As a German company, they treat a US government sponsored virus (such as the FBI's Magic Lantern) the same as any other virus - Namely, they detect it, quarrantine it, and kill it. Unlike both Norton and Mcafee, which have publically stated that they will not detect any virii such as ML.
Sure, I will take that bet....
.1% of those that make a decision about what OS they use will make that decision based on whether the government will spy on them.
I am willing to bet that less than 1% of those that are surveyed will even be aware of it.
I am willing to bet, that less that
If they have a warrant, and access to your computer, what the fuck are they messing around keeping it running for anyway, why haven't they just arrested you?
There is no secret piece of cross platform software available that can give 100% systeminfo without detection and be transparent to a clued up user.
There are however 100s of Windows only programs that can get so far inside the backdoor that even goatse is jealous, and STILL not be detected by a user ("Oh it was running a bit slow" they say as you nod slowly and sip your coffee whilst waiting for Adaware to finish its scan.)
btw, im a Windows user, not Linux - I merely pointed out the usual flaw in the plan.
liqbase
Maybe, maybe not. If you know what you are doing it will be very hard to crack your computer. However, I don't think there is much that can stand against a good hacker with physical access to your machine. Eg you have no software defence against a hardware keylogger. My point though, is that it is incredibly easy to get root on a linux box on the default install, if you have physical access.
Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
Maybe I'm missing something. Let's say that criminal #1 is keeping records of ill deeds on his pc. Then this announcement goes out that the govt. now has the power to install copware on your computer. Wouldn't all but the dumbest criminals (who would've been caught anyway) simply disconnect their box, and use a non-incriminating computer for internet? Or a firewall?
That's right, I read at +2 and post at +1. Not even I care what I have to say.
It doesn't take a switch to Linux to get Linux-like protection.
Get Win2K or XP and do your daily work as a limited user. Stick with apps that work as a limited user (Yes, this means dumping Quickbooks for Simply Accounting). Ditch or fix the games that need Admin to run and tell your vendors to clean up their act. Take charge of your PC already and stop blaming Microsoft.
Use Evolution instead of Outlook? Bewa
This is the police!
We have taken control of this slashdot account.
Anything we say can be used against you in a court of law...
Now really, if your computer can be infected with spyware, what's to say the courts can prove you are responsible for what is done on your computer?
Now this spyware issue, the banning ceremonial swords and toy guns, crime rates rising, and the security camera epidemic. How much freedom are the citizens of these countries willing to give up?
This guy is way out there
Crooks use things like radio scanners to look for wireless bugs. They can use tools to search for such spyware, essentially tools like Adaware or virus scanners or sum | diff.
Once crooks find out how their systems are compromised, spyware removal tools can do their work, and crooks can take evasive measures. For example, installing many sets of OS binaries, DLL directories, registries, etc, on each machine. In different directories, different file systems, different disks, whatever.
You could play all sorts of cat and mouse games. Sounds sorta like fun, except, guilty or not, it's probably not fun having the heat on your tail.
So why not just create a virus like Magic lantern and use it to steal US secrets? It defies logic.
...so it's not like Australia's move towards normalizing law enforcement techniques to modern standards is anything new.
That's right, down there in little Australia they still use stone tools and hunt kangaroos with spears.
How is a shortsighted unworkable piece of legislation modern?
I am artificially intelligent.
First of all, what's to say that there isn't one already, and second of all, what's to say that someone can't add it? The netfilter people have good intentions, but they're human. What if someone accidently accepts a patch that contains a backdoor? Then the backdoor sits there until somebody discovers it. I'm not saying that it's bound to happen - I'm saying that it could happen. Furthermore, that perhaps the Feds would like to make it happen.
Of course, your point is that perhaps the user is smart enough to spot the backdoor in the firewall and remove it, creating a fixed version. That's all good and well, but what happens if your C compiler has a backdoor that puts the backdoor back in the firewall when it's recompiled? Then your work is for naught.
The world is very 1984ish at present (not helped by hl2) but I don't really much give a damn. As long as I can code and surf I'm happy.
I run windows on stock hardware, and your right, how would I know?
But, giving up on the very American civil liberties is a dangerous road. The errosion of our rights has already begun, and I fear that the future holds more.
liqbase
and a usb keydrive with you to access your email with... gets round any spyware on the machines... unfortunately it can't cope with hardware based keyboard loggers or someone else in the circuit sniffing all your packages...
Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
Violent crime in the US has been declining for more than a decade. It took a mighty downward trend during the administration of that oh-so-reviled Mr. Clinton.
Gee, do you think that could have anything to do with the assload of money that administration directed toward hiring new police officers? The timing cannot be mre coincidence: at the very time the Clinton administration's new measures were going into effect in 94/95 (Billions directed toward hiring thousands more police officers, a castrated assault weapons ban), violent crime numbers began taking a severe nosedive.
Was this due to the ban on guns? I doubt it given that "assault weapons" accounted for a tiny percentage of incidents in the first place.
Since shrub has been in office he has let the assault weapons ban lapse (whoopee) but has also been cutting all that money for police. And the years since "Mr tough on crime" took office represent the first time in years that violent crime numbers have NOT shown a consistent reduction, but are actually near levelling and showing an upward trend... all despite the presence of an attorney general who has also been one of the most outspoken in calling for even further reductions in our constitutional liberties. The assault weapons ban only recently lapsed, but the upswing in crime numbers began almost immediately after the administration (and policy) changes.
So rather than simply ask "what's wrong with the UK" I would also ask "what's wrong with the US?" Because the symptoms are the same, and it appears the UK is simply working toward becoming the next new US territory...
(snort)
you can't be serious, can you? They never take responsibility. It's your own darn fault for looking suspicious in the first place.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
Improbable? Sure. But not impossible.
True. Possible.
However, it certainly can't hurt to start with a non-deliberately-broken AV scanner. And, although DNS spoofing may not take too much effort, AntiVir's parent company has no motivation whatsoever to cooperate by digitally signing a fake update to their program.
The biggest problem here involves trust - Once a company that we, by necessity, choose to trust to keep our computers virus-free, decides to go to the dark side and cooperate with a given government - Well, why not just have them go all the way and push out the spyware as an update?
I think you touched on that idea, but as a hack of the legit service rather than as the "legit" service itself gone bad.
Probably already been said, but just because they copyright their crap doesn't mean you _have_ to have it installed. It's like the RIAA coming up to me and FORCING me to take a pile of their shit CDs and listen to them. It's my computer and I'm allowed to uninstall any damn software that's on it; no matter who installed it.
;)
Circumventing the protection involved breaking encryption, illegal copying and breaking measures designed to stop you using the software without paying it. It can not possibly extent to removing a piece of software that has been installed on your computer (possibly illegally).
How does that stand legally? Just because they can get a warrant to install this software doesn't make it legal? They are by definition changing my property by installing it. It is a very rare case when it is legal for the police to forcefully enter a property. The same should go for computers.
What if they circumvent my firewall and special protection measures? Are they then breaking the law?
Them forcefully installing software may overwrite a file that I accidently just deleted and make it impossible to recover. If they do it while I have a disk error they could possibly trash even more.
What if their software isn't compatible with my system (for whatever reason) and it crashes (or worse causes it to trash all my data)?
If I lose valuable data as a result of their actions then am I entitled to compensation for the loss of $10bn worth of income because my new blockbuster invention that was going to change the world went missing when they broke my computer?
This isn't as simple as simply coming into your house and snooping about. It has more implications because computers are complex, tempremental things. If they seized the computer, did a bitwise copy of the hard disk and returned it then I can't claim they hosed my data.
Remind me to sue the govt if they ever install this in my computer. I'm sure I had some files that went missing when they did it
This is fucked. Fucked I tell you. Warrant or no there is too much they can do wrong and easily get away with. Let them snoop, but let them do it non-invasively. If they want the information let them knock on my door and bloody well sieze it like they used to.
I drink to make other people interesting!
So it's now illegal in the UK to possess a street map of London?
After all, such a map could be very useful to a terrorist intent on terrorizing some place.
I was over there a few months back, and I saw lots of street maps for sale at the airport. I wonder if those vendors have been arrested yet?
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
How is this going to work when I have antivirus software on my computer which is supposed to detect and stop exactly this stuff. Companies like symantec and mcaffe will have to buy in, and then Ill stop buying them. Spyware is spyware and a virus is a virus, even if the cops use it whats stops the bad guys from getting a copy and using it themselfs?
Indeed, the UK has effectively banned all knowledge.
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
If I forget my passphrase, no matter how pissed the cops ge, it doesn't really make a difference.
There's this thing called 'contempt of court'.
Prosecutor : "Well, would you please tell us the passphrase to your files."
You: "I forgot it (grin)."
Prosecutor : "But our surveillance shows you opened that file yesterday, and 5 times last week. And yet, you forget?"
Magistrate : "Defendant, it is obvious that you know your passphrase. Please reveal your passphrase to the court."
You : "I forget (grin)."
Magistrate : "Very well. Three months in jail for contempt of court. This session will resume at a later date."
You are in a twisty maze of processor lines, all alike.
There is a lot of hype here.
for chewing some gum? With drivecrypt PP and windows, you can at least do the whole one os inside another. Which could let you create a pretty good alibi.
Opera, Proxomitron-Grypen,GPG 0x0A1C6EE3