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PCs For A Workshop Environment?
bryanporter writes "I'm a geek-turned-homeowner, and am in the processing of setting up my workshop for doing odds and ends around the house. I want to install a cheap, decent PC out there for looking up building plans, shopping for tools while I'm on a job, etc. The shop is going to be in a wooden outbuilding with a shingled roof but the building won't be heated or cooled (although I don't plan on using it much in the summer)." Read on for a bit more on what he's looking for -- what would you suggest for computing in a hostile environment on a non-industrial budget?
"I plan on doing things like sawing wood for shelves in here so dust will also be prevalent. Can any of you Slashdotters recommend components for building a machine resilient to cold weather and lots of dust? I was a PC upgrade/repair technician in a former life, so building my own machines is not daunting in the slightest (I've built all my own home machines). The ruggedized machines I've found online are all too pricey, and all seem more designed for avoiding shock damage than environmental dust and cold."
How about building a small dust-proof closet for the computer and video-out display wirelessly? And add a glass-shielded desk (you see those in some retail shops/banks) where your LCD will be lying on its back facing up, covered by a layer of glass. Wireless keyboard and mouse can be regularly cleaned/dusted off or even replaced.
:)
Failing that, maybe build some sort of a curtainized shed, so you work on the computer inside, like those scientists in the contaminated zone
While most people put the roof back on their convertibles when it's raining, some take out the umbrellas.
Rock that crushes, Paper & Scissors that don't matter.
Just buy a cheap PC... You would be surprised at the hostile enviroments a PC will live in...
Most important feature of the PC - filters for the intake fans. Keeping the dust and grime out will go along way making a PC in the shop or garage last a long time...
Once a geek, always a geek.
Laws are for people with no friends.
Check out Outdoor Computer Cases
We used to make plexiglass cases for use in the mining industry. Basically just a bit bigger than the system unit, Grommeted cable holes, and shrouded, filtered fans in the plexiglass case giving positive pressure to combat dust ingress.
definitely...buy one that allows you full use while protecting against spills and dust.
Those who know, do not speak. Those who speak, do not know. ~Lao Tzu
Previous posts made the point of sealing up the computer and monitor... all fine and good. Be sure to get a keyboard that's sealed, and an optical mouse, or a touchpad. There are "roll-up" keyboards that have no exposed moving parts. Also, if you can enclose the computer & monitor in a housing that has a "positive pressure", you'll avoid a lot of the trouble dust. Try to find a way to blow clean air into the enclosure so that no dust can get sucked into the cabinet.
I'm in connecticut on my back deck it's cover but has no sides it's 34 degrees Im using a Power Mac G4 400 Mhz and a dell 15 inch crt I have woke up in the3 morning with snow on my key board I never shut it off just let it sleep It's running like a charm get a mac
http://Lenny.com
The easiest option is to figure out what kind of cables and/or wireless equipment would allow you to keep the PC back in the snug, safe comfort of your house and only have the bare minimum out in the shed.
Initially it seeems like a pain but it's nearly always the easiest and cheapest solution.
Most important feature of the PC - filters for the intake fans ...
Right. And keep your PC off the floor, that's where the dust is. Keep the PC on a desk, in a cupboard, etc. Better yet, keep the PC in a separate closet.
-kgj
-kgj
Run a Cat5 and get yourself a Win or X or VNC terminal. Fanless, really rugged. Not too expensive to get a older model ( or used off ebay ).
Keep the 'real' hardware back in the house where it can be protected...
You can also get sealed keyboards for pretty cheap these days.
LCD screens deal better with bad environments then CRT as they run cooler, but they aren't what you would consider cheap.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
I have a friend who once did something like this with an old pentium 2 350mhz computer. To keep moisture out, he duct taped all seams on the case and cut makeshift air filters out of simple polyester batting to fit on the fans to keep the dust out and made a small wooden cabinet for the monitor and also used a form fitting plastic keyboard cover to keep it clean. For the mouse, I forgot what he did. I think he might have used a cheap optical mouse.
Having done what you describe in a light industrial environment, the only thing I would add is a work-through dust cover for the keyboard (the same kind you see in use at industrial will-call counters etc.) You can use the keyboard with cover in place, thus protecting it from dust, chemicals, grease, and other nasties on your hands while working. The covers are durable, and clean easily.
Ignorance is curable, stupid is forever.
If I were you, I'd go for something with as few moving parts as possible, to reduce the number of points of failure. You could maybe set up a Linux-based thin client or diskless workstation, since it doesn't sound like you'll be using anything more demanding than a web browser.
Another big issue to consider is the monitor. Apparently many CRTs don't like being taken below freezing, and LCDs are even less tolerant.
Karma: Segmentation fault (tried to dereference a null post)
Yup, make your first project an enclosure-enclosure for the machine with good filters for the ventilation. You can buy large pieces of good filter material by shopping for replacement filters for home air cleaners. Even a good furnace filter will do. Beyond that, most PC hardware will work well in cold conditions pretty well... but a CRT display will probably treat you better in cold weather than a reasonably priced LCD, and is cheap.
Don't forget about moisture condensing within the enclosure. You can buy some pipe heating tape in the hardware store, and use it in really cold weather just to keep the PC's enclosure warmer than its surroundings by a few degrees - that will help. Also: new power supply, mobo and whatnot all will last a long time even if you do virtually nothing, and will be cheaper to replace than a few good rip blades for your table saw and some nice oak planks.
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
You could carry a laptop to your outbuilding as needed -- bring it in when it's cold -- and something like an Apple iBook (with its cover closed) is relatively durable impact-wise; I've seen them survive after being dropped.
How cold do you expect it to get? If it is below freezing, the hard disk could be a problem. (Frozen or too thick lubricant can prevent the disk from spinning up) You may want to use the shop machine as a diskless X-terminal. You can either network boot a PC or see if you scavange a real X-terminal cheap.
That sounds a little over budget to me.
I was thinking getting a cheap p2-p3 system, whatever you can find lying around. Sometimes you can find them in the trash. just stick some of these babies on them (fan filters: http://www.directron.com/fangrill80bb.html) where ever there is holes in the case.
Get a cheap ass optical mouse. Try to find one that has an completely enclosed optical device. If it doesn't no big deal, you can find them for $3-4 at pricewatch.com.
Get a keyboard leaflet, this is a must. http://www.kador.com/leaflet1.htm
you can get one here for free, if you don't mind being "creative"
Finally a can of compressed air from your local office supply and your set.
"...a wooden outbuilding with a shingled roof but the building won't be heated or cooled..."
It will be if you use an overclocked Duron or Prescott...
Windows has detected an undetectable error.
Build or find an enclosure. Doesn't have to be fancy, just big enough and reasonably well sealed.
Not only will you have to worry about dust, but possibly insects and rodents. If it's feasible, set it up so it draws in air directly from outside and into the enclosure (optionally exhaust the air to the outside as well). Failing that, get a decent filter and a stronger fan to pull the air through it. A large automotive air filter will probably be sufficient and those are fairly cheap. Suck air through the filter, don't blow into it.
Keep the enclosure under positive pressure (Blow air in) to keep dust from sneaking in any cracks or seams. Very little wiring would be needed for a remote power switch so you can turn it on without opening the cabinet, and a small access door with a decent seal to access drives/ports. (Don't have any ports exposed if you don't want them clogged with dust!)
I honestly don't see cold weather being a problem. Moisture might be, though... you don't want condensation inside the case! Using a chemical desiccant of some sort will help keep the moisture out of the way and hopefully eliminate the need for a heater or leaving it on all the time to prevent condensation.
First link on Google that seems to actually sell the stuff retail. Reusable packs are best so you don't have to keep disposing of the stuff.
=Smidge=
Easy answer -- get a laptop with wireless networking. When you leave your workshop, you take the computer with you.
No wires or other hassles for setup, either.
-ch
... why not go completely fanless and seal the thing up completely? Many people - especially those building HTPCs - go with entirely passive cooling so they don't have noisy fans. There are some nice (but fairly expensive) all-aluminum HTPC cases where the case itself acts as a heat sink for components. You don't need a P4 or some other massively powerful CPU; you don't need a 15K RPM hard drive; you don't need a high power 3D graphics card.
Or just get a used Toughbook off eBay.
We have off the shelf PC's at work, running in an industrial environment. They run 24/7 and have been running since 2000. I blow the dust out of them about every 3 months and reboot the computer. Once in a while I replace a cooling fan. The cooling fan will let you know by the noise.
This post is so completely inaccurate, I don't know where to start. I can't believe it was modded "Informative"... oh wait, yes I can. I'll tackle a few points....
"Building a computer resilient to cold weather should not be a problem in the slightest. In fact, many computers would run effectively much much better in a cold climate. A big factor in the overall heat that the CPU gives off has to do with the ambient temperature"
The CPU will work fine in the cold, but you're missing the point. The things that will be most affected by the cold are moving parts... fans, and hard drives in particular. When it's really cold, those hard drives might not spin too well. There's also the moisture issue which is going to have bad short term (possible shorts) and long term (corrosion) effects on everything.
"If you buy slightly new hardware, chances are they are going to give off an immense amount of heat...which is a problem facing microprocessor makers in general, the rising heat problems. Trust me, a Pentium 4 or AMD64 would love a cold climate."
The AMD64s are renowed for their low heat dissipation. They run at an even lower voltage (and often at a lower clockspeed!) than AMD's previous CPU generation, the AthlonXPs. They also have laptop-like ability to throttle their clockspeed when the CPU is idle, reducing heat output even further.
"the only thing that the cold will aversely affect is the initial bootup of the machine. Like a car, a computer requires the most energy in the first moments of startup. If you are booting up a computer in a cold environment (a cold cold boot hehe), you may have some problems"
No, you're totally wrong. A computer does have an initial spike in power draw during bootup (because it's spinning up the drives and fans) but this is less than the power it draws under full load (100% CPU and video usage - ie, gaming).
And the car battery analogy is totally inappropriate. A car battery can have problems cranking out power in the cold because the chemical reactions in the battery that produce electricity happen more slowly in the cold. That's absolutely not what happens in a computer, where the power supply is simply transforming power from AC to DC. Get it? It's not producing power; it's taking it from the outlet in the wall, transforming it, and sending it to the motherboard and other peripherals. The effect of cold temperatures on the PSU is minimal, if anything.
There's nothing wrong with not knowing something. The problem is not knowing that you don't know something. I don't know Python or Perl, but that's okay... I don't try and hand out advice on those topics.
"Although the computer will run fantastic (i wish my room was freezing cold!) in a cold climate"
Let me guess: you're an "avid" overclocker. That tells me a lot. I'm surprised you don't have your system specs listed in your sig.
OtakuBooty.com: Smart, funny, sexy nerds.
1)Get a clear plastic container to hold the cpu and monitor (or two seperate cases if you use a CRT).
2)Cut a hole in said plastic case and epoxy/hotglue/ductape a resperator filter or part of a vacume cleaner bag over it.
3) Go about building the CPU as you would go about building a home theater PC or similar in terms of heat output and fans and such.
4) Put your USB, ethernet, and power connections through other some smaller holes, and seal those with electrical tape or epoxy or something.
5) depending on where you live you might also want to put some kind of moisture obsorbing material in the case like paper towels or drierite desiccants.
6) If you're a cheap masochist, you might get a ball mouse. Otherwise, just get a regular optical mouse and carefully tape flexible plastic around the edges of the buttons (with enough slack for the buttons to function).
I've heard good things about the durability of rollup keyboards.
7) Upgrade the sound system in your house so that you can hear it clearly out in your shed. Make sure that you can control it via ssh.
good luck!
where they deployed PCs everywhere. They also had tons of grease and all other sorts of contaminants being flung about. They just used generic Compaq computers with cheapy 15" flatscreens. We just stored them in a cheaply made wooden shelf with a plastic shield to protect the monitor and a keyboard shelf. I imagine since you are good with tools, you could construct one of these yourself.
They tried using special keyboard mouse combo devices(basically just a trackball and a few buttons added on to the right side of the keyboard), but these ended up breaking quite frequently and seem to be harder to find. I would recommend just using cheap keyboards and mice, and keep plenty around. They are probably the most likely thing to break.
Monstar L
Most LCD panels have an operating temperature range of 0 to 50 degrees C (32 to 140 degrees F). The upper end of the range is unlikely to be a problem, but if your workshop is likely to get below freezing in the winter an LCD monitor will likely get damaged: use a conventional CRT based monitor instead.
Anyways, I second this post. I'd also like to mention that you might try booting your OS off of the network and loading it into RAM and skip the whole hard drive altogether. That way you can keep the number of moving parts as low as possible (and save some cash).
Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
I'd get a cheap laptop and a wi-fi card. That way you can take the laptop out there and work while you need, and keep it in the house the rest of the time. Alternatively, you could buy one of those cheap barebones "mini" PCs with a handle and simply carry it from house to shed as necessary.
Just then the floating disembodied head of Colonel Sanders started yelling Everything You Know Is Wrong!-Weird Al
First of all: Do not run cat-5 between buildings. Unless you have the ability to figure out and prevent ground loops, you are asking for trouble. Use either fiber or wireless. (or 10base5, if you can find it anymore, but shipping from eBay is likely to be more than other solutions)
Next, put the computer off your clean room. Cutting wood implies that you will be putting a finish on it latter, and finish should always be applied in a separate room that is well filtered and ventilated. (and heated!) Now you don't want your computer in the fumes from some finishes (you never know what will eat plastic), but you otherwise want exactly the same environment for both.
If you want to use the computer in the main shop, start with a wide format printer so you can print your instructions off. (this can be in the house) Then consider a projector, through a window from the clean room to a wall elsewhere. Requires some forethought of how to place things so it will work, but otherwise useful. If not that, run an LCD through a wall. Use the cheapest keyboard you can find in the shop so you don't care when it goes.
Last, search rec.woodworking. (google groups used to be good for this) This subject has been brought up many times.
Mainly due to their low price (can be had for about 400$), and their much smoother exteriors (less cracks for dust to find its way into).
Grab yourself a shuttle or jetway, if you dont need a cd-rom/floppy you can leave the sealing front plates on them, having only the rear fan's outake as an open oriface, and pushing your price down to nearly 300$ (www.zipzoomfly.com).
after that your pretty much home free, every few months you can slide the cover back (three thumb-screws or less) and give the interior a quick air-dusting...
Since the size is small, it can be safely tucked away somewhere more secure than a full fledged tower might go, and can be kept all the more less exposed to dust and other harmfull airborne materials.
Heat is rarely a problem with all but the oldest and newest models, so as long as you keep the arc weilder away from the power cables you should be fine!!
Invest in a wireless keyboard/mouse, and youve reduced your clutter/liabilities that much more.
--Idiots, Every single one of YOU, A flaming mass of conglomerated morons, hey wait a second, isnt that how RAID works?
They had a covered dock area for loading and all the offices were ventilated from the warehouse. Diesel fumes from the trucks trickled in and made all the vents pitch black. And inside the PC, they were completely black. They had been running the same PCs for 5 years with no more problems than anyone else has.
Bottom line, unless there are liquids around, you will probably be fine with just cleaning it out every once in a while.
I'm not drunk, I just have a speech impediment. And a stomach virus. And an inner ear infection.
I work for a support company. We do networks and hardware repair for all sorts of companies. Anything from $200 an hour lawyers to to heavy industrial.
My point is at the industrial places I have seen a lot of computers. I've had to fix PC's with 3 inches of metal shavings inside the case. Layers of black nasty dust. Computers you don't even want to touch because they are so nasty. Puddles of oil on them.
The majoriy of them still run, still work fine. Espically considering that some of them are Pentium based PC running 95 and they are still working in this enviroment.
Get a used PC, or put togather one from your parts bench. Put it in your shop. Forget about it, it will run forever. Just try to keep it away from the sander.
While there's lots of really, really good ideas here, I could add one more comment.
If your shop PC craps out in 2-3 years (due to the hostile environment, or whatever), what are you going to do? Probably the same thing you'd do if it didn't crap out -- upgrade. Most folks I know usually upgrade their #1 system (the one in your house) every 2-3 years anyway, so just move the hand-me-downs into the (shop) #2 system, clean the li'l puppy up while you're at it, and your good to go for another 2-3 years.
Unless you're going into the shop-made furniture business, the dust/dirt probably won't kill it in that time frame.
Cloned foods give the statement "We had that last week!" a whole new meaning.
i used to work IT in a very filthy factory that has ~50 HP Pavillion PC on the shop floor. They held up very well, I believe, for one major reason, they rn P75's with passive cooling. Just before i left they were starting to upgrade to PII 400 machines with fans on the heatsinks. Some of the P75's had been in service for multiple years with out a hardware failure. There were a couple of PII's that failed due to overheating within 6 months, all of which had fans so cloged that they could turn anymore...
You spelled Monkey Wonk-Wonk wrong!
Points of failure for PCs in dusty environments are the hard drives and fans. I'm looking to build a similar unit like you're describing that is completely void of moving parts (aside from the fan in the power supply, but power supplies are cheap to replace). What parts am I looking for? Mini-itx, VIA EPIA motherboard with a built-in VIA C3 processor that runs without the need of a processor fan (heat-sink still needed, obviously). CompactFlash to IDE adapter that allows me to install a compactflash card as the media storage device. Due to budget issues, I'm restricted to maybe 1GB or 2GB of disk space, but that's plenty for me to install linux with X and fluxbox or enlightenment. I'll also be running VNC or NX client in order to remotely control a desktop on a server safely sitting on my desk in the home office---essentially making the computer a thin client. Since I'm reusing my monitor (if it goes bad, I won't care), keyboard, and mouse, the total cost could feasibly fall under $600.
Linux at home
... unless you completely isolate your workshop computer electrically (as with a notebook that accompanies you to & from the shop), the electrical noise from the motors in power tools is likely to feed back through the power & drive a computer nuts.
A separate, filtered power line would be best. Or maybe a car battery driving the PC through an AC inverter, and recharged via a rooftop solar panel.
links:
solar trickle charger
Pantyhose makes great filter material for any openings in the case.
How about a cheap Epia with wireless?
I'm going on the assumption that you're going to have better machines in the house and not using this one for games, etc. The less powerful (but still more than enough for a VNC client) Epia mobos shouldn't need a fan, and if you want you could get a DC power adaptor and laptop brick to save on the cost of a PSU (no fan on the DC adaptor). Depending on what you install the mobo should also be able to handle some video streams, etc
So far in $CAD that's about:
$50-60: DC PSU $15+: 12V 3a, Laptop power brick
$150 or so: Epia (motherboard, CPU, video, LAN, sound etc included)
under $100: Wireless NIC
under $100: small hard-drive
under $100: RAM
If you know a little about linux (or know somebody who can help you) then you could get rid of the hard-drive by running something that boots from a USB stick or perhaps an MMC card (some epias support MMC boot devices, and I've heard of adaptors to plug them into a hard-drive jack)
Obviously you could save by scavenging the RAM, drives, etc from other machines as well, so the only cost of "new" items would be the epia, DC PSU, and power brick. No fans means dust is much less of a problem too.
Moving parts are bad.
You want to get a passively-cooled system, including the power supply, and just make sure there are decent filters on the vents. With no forced airflow, they won't plug up too badly.
Mini-ITX comes to mind, booting from flash.
Now, any system like this is going to be a dog, so what you want to do is run this as a remote terminal. Either an X-Terminal or Remote Desktop depending on your OS of choice.
As for keyboard/mouse, my garage computer has a Cirque keyboard with a touchpad. Cirque makes a drool cover for the keyboard that covers the pad, and it works fine with the extra layer of plastic. An optical mouse is probably OK as well, but I think you'll be cleaning out a touchpad a lot less.
Display is harder. LCDs are very temperature sensitive. CRTs always have warnings about low temperatures, but I've never had a problem with mine. I don't live in a very cold place, though. 25F happens half a dozen times a year.
HTH
-Z
You have violated Robot's Rules of Order and will be asked to leave the future immediately.
Get a cheap PC, dump that to a 55 gallon drum, punch a few holes for the cables to come out, pour lubricant oil to the cover the PC and cross your finger...
It means to be a joke initially, but, other than the possiblity of eatting away the plastics, I suddenly think it may work.
It's "grammar" you fucking retard.
Try idotpc.com or another fanless solution. After getting tired of my parent's computers dying or making screaming noises because of cat hair in the fans, I bought them each one. They're great computers and perfect if you can live with a Via chip.
Ok, let's think here. The main idea is to keep the fans from getting dusted up. Why don't you just build an airtight box, cut a big hole for a big duct, with the intake leading to the outside. Hook up a big , filtered industrial fan or blower pushing a bunch of fresh air into the intake hole. Make another hole on the other end, again, with a filter. If you got enough air moving through, you wouldn't even need fans. Mount a cheap motherboard with integrated video to the bottom of the case, along with the rest of the stuff you need. You can just do the wireless with USB, no need to make a support structure for the PCI slots (but, if you're inclined, you could make all the mounting brackets and stuff, and build the ultimate gaming machine inside). Then, use a roll-up keyboard and a graphics tablet for a mouse. Seal the holes for the cables with rubber gaskets and silicone, and you've got a dust-proof, spill-proof and otherwise rather indestructable system.
My other Sig is
A friend of mine asked me to take a look at her computer. She said the computer was unusually "quiet" and would reboot itself on occasion. I surmised correctly that the fan on her power supply was faulty. She was a chain smoker and apparently smoked a lot while working on the computer; not only was the power supply fan gummed up with revolting tar and nicotine, but the CPU's cooling fan was clogged beyond use, and the cdrom drive drawer would not open. This is the only computer I have ever worked on that died from smoking.
In reply to the above anecdote of stupidity, a reader sent in the following:
I've seen a computer die from smoking, too.
A customer came in with a dead computer, claimed it was under warranty, and asked if we could fix it. We had look at it, and before we even laid eyes on it, we could smell it. Imagine the stench of an overused ashtray times ten.
We looked at the yellow case (it was supposed to be beige) and the date of purchase (3-4 months previous) and goggled in disbelief that she actually had any lungs left.
"What are you doing with this computer?" I asked in total disbelief. It was at a taxi service. She smoked, the cabbies smoked, and the room was apparently only about eight by twelve. Smoking took place 24/7 in this place, and her fingers and the computer bore witness. We opened the case, and there were visible deposits of brown tar everywhere. The whole thing was gummy and slimy inside.
We had to tell her she was on her own. Naturally, she countered with the "it's under warranty" argument, but the computer was well beyond that. She left quite mad. We insisted she take her computer with her when she left.
All of which goes to speak on the need for keeping technology properly ventilated.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
I built a "box" under the bench specially for the PC, then stuck a furnace filter on the front and back "door". I used a rubber gromet from any automotive store that "self heals" meaning it closes back in on itself so it stays sealed. Works supprizingly well. Furnace filters (cheap ones) are only a few bucks each, and change them at the end of each summer. The monitor i did a similar thing to with plexiglass, and a filter lid on top. Power is always on, and a power strip is the control. Very simple, costed about $30 to make and is durable. The PC came from compgeeks.com for about $130 (p3-600 crashpaq), same with the monitor. Optical cheap labtec mouse, equally cheap keyboard. It's not hard to do... Just use your imagination. (and mine's in a machine shop for autobody work, so you can imagine how dirty my stuff gets :) )
...Now if only i could figure out the printer...
It is better known as 'batteries'.
(I build guitars/basses, furniture, pens, other tools, speakers, computer cases, LCD front and rear projection TV housings, etc.. my workshop includes benchtop plainers and jointers, table saws, 14" band saws, the real stuff)
DO NOT PUT A COMPUTER IN YOUR WORKSHOP.
I can't stress that enough. You do not want to have this kind of distraction around powertools. While I've never been hurt (not by luck, by being obsessed about safety) I've seen more than my share of ripped off fingers, sawed up bones from people mentally slipping or getting distracted by anything and everything. You DO NOT want this to happen to you.
A computer will distract you when you should be focused on the tools. If you want to double check a plan, you stop what you are doing to check it. You do not glance up at a monitor or a screen in mid cut. That's when your loss of focus will harm you. The stop/start, while inefficient and probably conflicts with your inner geek, is needed and there for a reason.
For your health and comfort, spend some bucks on a dust collection system (1.5 HP with good bags or a canister) to connect to tablesaw, planer, jointer etc. Also, an air cleaner to take out the "fines" is important as well. The fines can get pretty deep into your lungs and do cumulative damage.
A healthy environment for you ought to be fine for a PC.
When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.