Linux Live Gaming Project

Fabio writes "The mission of LLGP (Linux Live Game Project) is show to Wintendo users that also Linux can be used to game. And now a new version is out. Features: KDE 3.3 with Plastik theme and Nuvola icons, kernel 2.6.10, Nvidia drivers, TORCS, Wesnoth, SuperTux, TuxRacer and much more! It's based on Knoppix, but contains deep changes in the startup scripts. Now the hardware probing is completely based on hotplug and udev; kudzu was removed. Challenge your friends on LLGP, and convert them to Linux!"

Comments

Wrong Games

[Anonymous Coward]

WHen people say that they don't use linux because they cannot game on it, they are not talking about playing tuxracer. They are talking about playing HL2, Doom, the latest RPGs, etc. This distro couldn't be further from what people want.

Re:Wrong Games

[Magus424]

But even with those, your options are severely limited compared to Windows.

The fact remains that if you really want to be able to game, and not just play a small subset of games, you can not use Linux.

At least not entirely. Hurray for dual-booting :-)

Re:Wrong Games

[sahonen]

Great, HL1 and Doom 2. Those are *so* equivalent to HL2 and Doom 3. I mean, it's just another number up.

Besides, maybe they work for some people, but for me, Wine won't run anything more complicated than Notepad. It might work better if I put some time into configuring it, but that's going back to "Linux is free if your time is worth nothing," and my time (and sanity) is worth far too much to me to be spending all of it trying to get all of the disparate components that make up a Linux distribution to acknowledge each others' existence.

Believe me, I've given Linux its fair shot several times. It all boils down to how the system shifts far too much of the effort onto the user. It is the *programmer's* job to make the system usable by the user, *not* the user's! I shouldn't have to touch a text editor. If I have to configure anything, which I shouldn't, there should be a graphical tool for it, and it should allow me to configure *all* of the available options, not just the common ones.

Re:Wrong Games

[Pxtl]

Yep. Many projects have taken an attempt at this meagre challenge, and they've all sucked. First of all, Super-Tux is an alpha game - their site screenshots still show the tiling grids. Not very impressive.

Want to make Linux Gaming cool? Get some better objectives. I've seen many of these "Linux Game Distros" projects, and they all do the same half-assed crap of grab a bunch've mediocre Linux games and throw them onto the main menu.

Here's my dream project for an Opensource team:
FPS distro. Get one Opensource game that has tons of media available for it. That's pretty much the first 3 Id titles, plus Abuse and a handful of others. Quake and Doom are the only games to have complete media-replacement projects that turn them into standalone games, but I think there are a handful of Quake 2 and Quake 3 TC's that could be converted into standalones with a little trouble. Then, make a multi-CD package out of those games. Include all the major popular mods, models, etc. Second, take some of the configging out - Q3 and Doom were the only Id games that didn't require command-line hacking to get the mods working right.

Did you know that there are Doom Legacy maps reimplementing the Unreal Tournament 2003 gametypes? So you can play CTF Doom and Dom Doom? Very cool.

The key problem with these games, and Cube, is the installation and configging details. Handle that for the users with some nice Python GUI wrappers or something, similar to RedHat's config screens. Doom Legacy has this nicely nipped for Windows.

Now, set up a Gamespy-like GUI-oriented meta-server game-browsing service. That would be the "new feature" your gaming distro brings to the scene.

Then release a game-distro with a real featureset. Also, release win32 bundles of your game distros (like QPack and DPack) so that you can get win32 players playing with your players.

Yes, there are tons of games out there, but only Half-Life gives you tons of mods bundled in with their game package. If a person could order a QPack distro (which uses no Id IP but the GPL'd source data) with Weapons Factory, Slide, and whatever other mods you can get the mod devs to let you grab, then you're golden.

still, that option relies on a) getting permission to redistribute mods from the mod devs and b) what Id's exact license is for the Quake and Doom source.

Alternate plan: go for the oldschool people. Make the Linux Game Console for casual party gamers. There are an innumerate number of players out there who just want to grab a joystick and play Gauntlet again with their buds over a few beers. Just go for these basics: multiple joystick support, good graphics and sound configuration, TV out, and every multiplayer hotseat game you can cram onto the damn thing, even if you have to code them yourself (how freakin' hard would 8-player Spacewar be to make in PyGame?).

No, its not Halo, but neither is Mario Party, and people play the hell out of that.

Re:Wrong Games

[sahonen]

Because after all, what Linux really needs is for you, the master and director of all computing, to give it a shot...

I am the end user. I am the master and director of all computing, because I'm the person who is actually using it to get work done. An operating system is not an end to itself, it's what runs in the background and doesn't get in my way while I'm trying to run stuff on it. If I'm spending all of my time getting the operating system working, then that operating system is not doing its job. This is what Linux freaks don't get, they run Linux because it's Linux. I run Windows 2000 because it stays out of my way while I do what I actually want to do with my computer.

Text files are a superior configuration method

As long as you have every single option and its impact on the system memorized, and you are a perfect typist. I have no problem with using a text file to actually store the configuration, and in fact I much prefer it to Windows' godawful convoluted registry, but editing them by hand is a pain unless you are extremely familiar with the system. And you know what? I don't have time to become obsessively familiar with every aspect of the system, that's the programmer's job, I'm too busy getting things done instead of dealing with my OS. You shouldn't have to keep referencing the man page or beat your head against the desk for half an hour because you transposed something. And you can stick all of the less commonly-used options under an "advanced options" tab.

You're more than willing to complain about Linux, but not at all willing to learn it.

I'm perfectly willing to learn a new UI, a new directory structure, and everything else one would expect to be different in a new system, because it is a new system after all. If I use a Mac, I don't complain about the widgets being in different places and saved documents going in a different folder and stuff like that. But the difference is, I turn on a Mac and I can forget about it, except for maybe being more used to some Windows UI conventions. A Linux box simply isn't usable with the same degree of transparency of the operating system that you get with Windows and MacOS. The problem is not that the user isn't knowledgeable enough, it's that the operating system isn't doing its job.

Re:Wrong Games

[SComps]

Actually, no he's not a stupid end user. He's an average end user, and one I happen to agree with on many levels; and I'm not stupid either.

I'm not a software engineer, and I'm certainly not some high brow programmer with a fuck the user--if they read the damn source code they'd see that cryptic note in line 15295--attitude.

Yes, being familiar with the operating system is any administrators job, but the original poster *does* have a good point. Text file configurations are difficult to deal with. ESPECIALLY if the sample configs don't actually describe all of the available options and are only described on some godawful university ftp server in some backwater state with a 2 concurrent user limit an a 9600 baud USR Sportster for bandwidth. Exaggeration yes, but still. It's not just linux though. It's development in general. Commecial products tend to not want to piss off the end users (even though they do) and Open Source, freeware, shareware etc have this habit of saying "Can't make it work, read the manual ask in 17 newsgroups, read the manual again. Google on the terms you didn't find in the manual, ask in the newgroups again. If you don't find it, send us an email so we can savage and humiliate you for bothering us in our ivory castle. Oh yes your question. RTFM luser."

But this is seriously off topic. Tuxracer? when the hell did that become a game? If linux wants games, there has to be development of *real* games, not penguins on crack. Before there will be development there's gotta be serious users. In another posting somebody said something about the percentage of linux machines on the internet, and then added... "how many of those have monitors?" Count 3 linux machines on the net without monitors in my house alone. They do the bulk of the bull work, but are largely unsuitable for day to day interaction. That's my opinion, and it may not coincide with yours.

Telling somebody they're stupid for having an opposing opinon only makes you the stupid one.

Reboot?

[tepples]

A big problem with live CDs is that because few residential users can justify spending money for vmware, it takes a reboot to use a live CD. A lot of users leave their PCs on all the time, and many just minimize apps instead of closing them before they start a game. How will they get used to 3-minute task switch times, with mandatory closing of all applications?

Re:Reboot?

[thenefariousone]

Nein! A lot of people on slashdot leave their PCs on all the time.

Regular people shut off their computers once they're done with them. Just like they turn off the light when they leave the room.

They're not running servers. Uptime doesn't mean anything to them.

And those are the people you need - like it or not.

Thats all well and good

[tuxter]

But I want to play half life. I understand that OS projects take a huge deal of time to get off the ground, but lets face facts, PS2/Cube/Xbox/PC are all gaming platforms. Linux is not, it was never designed as a gaming platform and probably never will be as long as video card manufacturers refuse to open source their drivers. What is the point of porting games to a platform if the likelyhood of them working is minimal. I fully support the idea of trying to make linux a gaming platform, and would dearly love to see it. But IMHO it's not going to happen.

Re:Thats all well and good

[Trillian_1138]

Correct me if I'm wrong (and, as this is Slashdot, I have no doubt someone will), but I don't believe Windows was *designed* as a gaming platform. Rather, as it became obvious that PC users desired the ability to do more graphic-based applications, often meaning games, Windows tools such as DirectX became available.

There is no reason something similar can't happen under Linux. I agree, video card manufacturers keeping closed-source drivers and the ever-present 'which came first' issue of companies not publishing to Linux until companies publish to Linux are issues. As you say, you support the ideas behind this project. I don't think you're trying to be negative, but it comes off as if you felt these guys wasted their time.

I recently aquired a bigger harddrive and am thinking of configuring it for dual-booting. As much as I suspect I'll have to go into Windows for World of Warcraft and such, it's still nice to know that I'd be able to have similar time-wasting games on Linux like I do on Windows.

-Trillian

Re:Thats all well and good

[k98sven]

PS2/Cube/Xbox/PC are all gaming platforms. Linux is not, it was never designed as a gaming platform and probably never will be as long as video card manufacturers refuse to open source their drivers. What is the point of porting games to a platform if the likelyhood of them working is minimal.

Being 'designed' as a gaming platform doesn't mean anything. Windows was not designed as a gaming platform either. In fact, games were the last of the old DOS programs to make the shift to windows. That happened because Microsoft cleared the way for them by creating DirectX.

The open-or-closed status of drivers has relatively little to do with it. It's not a big problem for the graphics card people to recompile their drivers for the major distros. Games are a mass-market thing. So only mass-market Linux (i.e. major distros) are really relevant there anyway. You don't see them releasing drivers for NT 4 either.

The issue is the API:s. While Direct3D and OpenGL are pretty much on par, DirectX provides quite a lot of other stuff which OpenGL does not. And in those areas, the alternatives like SDL just aren't good enough.

So what are the options? Develop for DirectX, and you have Windows and the Xbox covered. Develop for OpenGL and you'll probably need to write your own code for networking, keyboard/mouse/joysticks and so on. And rewrite it if you want to support other platforms.

What the world would really need is a gaming API which could compete with (or be better than) DirectX in every respect, and which is cross-platform. Ideally, you would have a collaboration between Red Hat, SuSE, Apple and Sony. An API supporting Windows and Linux and Apple and the PS2 would certainly be a DirectX-killer. You could develop for four platforms for the price of one.

Given that scenario, who wouldn't put out a Linux port (even an unsupported one)? It's certainly technically possible. I'm just waiting for someone important to 'get it'.

Re:Thats all well and good

[WIAKywbfatw]

Windows may not have been designed to be a gaming platform, any more than it was designed to be any other kind of platform, but gaming has been around on PCs since way before Windows was around.

We've evolved past the point where you needed to know how to configure autoexec.bat, config.sys and QEMM to get a DOS-based game to run properly and we've now progressed to the point where you install a game, it self detects your hardware, tells you if it needs updated Windows components (requires DirectX version x, installs that other software once you give it the go-ahead, and is ready to run.

From hours of messing around to a few simple clicks: don't underestimate the amount of credit that sort of simplicity deserves for the PC gaming market being so big today. Even so, that's a heck of a lot more interaction than is involved in getting a PS2 or other console game up and running.

Yet compare that to the situation under Linux. If you're an expert, have plenty of time on your hands and enjoy a challenge then I'm sure you've got no problem trying to get games to work. But if you're not an expert, or don't have the time or don't enjoy hitting your head against a brick wall a few dozen times then Linux is not the gaming platform for you.

Not a winner

[Staplerh]

Hmm, I think Linux should be promoted as much as possible, but this avenue will probably be a dead end. I dug around on the website, and found this list of supported games... admittedly it is the 'old' list, but still apparently rather accurate. Here is the URL: http://tuxgamers.altervista.org/llgp/games-0.0.1.p hp

Now, the simple fact remains that this is insufficient, and Linux can simple not be promoted as a gaming platform at this time. This may be promising news for software developers who may elect to use the Linux platform, but I don't think I'll be able to 'convert my friends to Linux'.

Although, I must admit such samplings as 'Penguin Solitaire', 'Penguin Minesweeper', 'Galaga' and 'Pingus - Enhanced Lemmings' do sound tempting.. especially the last. I just don't see it as a show stopper, or anything special.

Commercial Linux Games

[Anonymous Coward]

The mission of LLGP (Linux Live Game Project) is show to Wintendo users that also Linux can be used to game.

Many of these open source games for Linux are really great, but what we really need is to attract more commercial companies to develop games for Linux. All jokes aside Doom 3 has great graphics and shows what OpenGL is capable of; So the only exuse companies have to not develop for Linux is sales. Hopefully they would do better then Loki this time around...

Wintendo?

[goofyheadedpunk]

Oh man, Wintendo! A derogitory phrase for Windows that I haven't heard before. Not only does this one degrade Microsoft ( always a good thing ) by implying that their OS is only good for games, but it also ribs Windows users by implying that the majority of them use Windows imply to play games. Holy crap is that hilarious!

Come on, seriously. Since when is childish name calling a good idea, especially when you want to promote your own idea? HINT: Being a dick doesn't inspire others to join you.

Grow up.

Re:We've got the gaming distros.

[nomadic]

Give me a singleplayer game with a plot for Linux!

And make it CHALLENGING. I can't believe how much they've dumbed down games. I remember back in the day where if you didn't solve the damn puzzle, you didn't go any further. And they were HARD. And if you talked to someone in the game you had to use the keyboard; none of this pre-selected sentences to choose.

Yes, sir, I am willing to contribute.

I'd definitely contribute to a nice, long, mind-numbingly hard single player game, maybe a System Shock/Deus Ex type FPS. Wouldn't even be that hard, there are available open source 3d engines, not cutting edge anymore but who cares if the game is good.

The problem, of course, is the same one you always run into in OS projects; the art. Just not enough artistic talent available in the OS world.

Re:Tux Racer

[mboverload]

Gentoo? You totally lost the WHOLE POINT. People dont want to compile stuff from source or edit text files to get something to work when it installs and plays in windows in less than a minute.

Self-booting games?

[cgenman]

I've always wondered why people don't combine Knoppix with retail games. Doom 3, for example, could boot from the CD directly into itself, no matter what system or OS you ran. The interface would be dirt simple, and boot times could probably be optimized to be bearably fast. You wouldn't have to worry if your game was Longhorn or Win 98 compatible... it just would be.

Now, you would have to keep your drivers up-to-date, which might be a pain, but it would probably be a smaller pain than supporting every OS and software combination under the sun.

Where is Quake?

[yem]

One, Two and Three. Could probably squeeze in the UT2004 demo as well or even the Doom 3 demo. Show em something they may actually recognise.

Re:List of games included in LLGP

[flamearrows]

No Nethack?

Games, and Linux and Content of them

[Zombie Ryushu]

We are Linux users, and as Linux user we should stop complaining that the commercial industry that cares nothing for us isn't porting games.

Games are nessessary for this OS to market itself. I really wish we had more people. As someone who has contributed time and energy to Linux gaming I know something very VERY important. We need the Human capital to pump out good games. They don't have to be masterpieces, just reasonably well done, and those of us who are able should contribute more to this OS.

We really REALLY need Human being pumping out better quality (conservative) code.

What I mean by conservative code is code that does more with less resources. We need artists and we need ideas. The technology exists and I honestly don't think that it is a lack of Linux's ability to be a good gaming platform, I just don't think people are taking advantage of the green and unharvested pastures that are the potential for Linux games.

We need volunteers producing quality GPLed content to create a desireable product. Its time that the people step up to the plate and show what they are capable of when the effort is put forward.

Stop asking the commercial gaming industry to do it for us, they won't.

Re:Game Support on Linux is Sub-Par

[the angry liberal]

So if any of you out in SlashLand have it in with some game developers (hey, it could happen), see if you can put in a good word for OpenGL and SDL.

That's why! None of these developers have ever heard of OpenGL and that is why most games are written for DirectX.

I would suggest running with your revelation and post messages on all the game dev forums you can find. Let them know about this fancy, new OpenGL and how great it is!

And we really need more than hot air from ATI.

They don't care enough to even invest the energy in generating said hot air. ATI is spending massive resources competing with nVidia in the GPU market. The percentage of users who would actually buy a different brand due to Linux driver support is probably like 1% if you think about it. Sure, people say Linux boxes make up ~13% of the Internet but I'm willing to bet most of those don't even have a monitor attached.