PC Competition for the Mac mini?

Omega1045 asks: "When Apple announced their Mac mini last week for US$499, it caught my eye. Wanting to buy/build a small PC for my already cramped breakfast bar, I started pricing out similar PC hardware. The results startled me. It was very difficult to price a PC as small (6.5" x 6.5" x 2") as the Mac mini with comparable equipment cheaper than the Mac mini. Indeed, most of the configurations I found were more than the humble $499 of the Mac, often much more. To match price I often had to configure with a much bigger shuttle-style case. What computers are currently on the market to compete with this? When my wife asks for the 'cute little Mac', what PC can I buy instead that will take up as little space and do as much for the same price (or less)?" How long do you think it will take PC manufacturers to answer Apple's latest entry into the market?

Comments

Nothing

[arson1]

what PC can I buy instead that will take up as little space and do as much for the same price (or less)?

Nothing comes to mind that can do as much for that price, but I'm sure someone will post all the components that they got for some price you'll never be able to find. They won't account for the OS price, the time spend building the computer, or the lack of any warranty.

Re:Nothing

[I_Love_Pocky!]

I know, seriously, all other things being equal I would always take a Mac over a PC. The only reason I don't own a Mac is because they cost too much (not so much the case with the mac-mini anymore).

I mean really, unless you could get a comperable PC for less than the $500 price tag why would you even consider it?

Don't like OSX (It takes some getting used to, but I think it probably has the best UI of any OS out there)? Run PPC Linux.

Re:Nothing

[Golias]

My suspicion is that we will not see a "mini-killer" from the PC world for about six months to a year, if at all.

Apple thinks they are discovering a new market with the mini. If it turns out they are right, the Windows world will certainly rush to come up with something that reaches that market. Let's see what they could do:

The mini looks very similar to the eMac mobo, or possibly more like the G4 mobo with a single DIMM slot replacing the two SO-DIMM slots. The idea is, it's a laptop-class system in an ultra-small desktop box.

Now, Intel has been trying to find a way to compete with the lower heat and longer battery life of the iBook/Powerbook line for a long time, with very limited success, but they've recently gained a lot of traction with the new "Centrino" line of mobile processors.

Now suppose TI or Intel or some other company who has the capacity to do motherboard design comes out with a 5" x 5" Centrino mobo which uses standard-size memory.

They will probably use integrated video to save a few bucks, rather than patching on an ATI Mobility card the way Apple does, but nobody will care... this isn't a 1337 game system, it's an attempt at a mini killer. Integrated sound would also be likely.

It would probably support USB2 and VGA, and even hang on to PS/2 keyboard and mouse ports, but scrap the parallel port and all but one serial port. Since they preserved the PS/2 Bus, it would cost almost nothing to bundle a keyboard and two-button mouse with it.

It would probably work with a standard Targus laptop power supply, and probably ship with a generic version of the same thing.

Instead of the laptop drive, make it a half-inch taller and put in a full-sized ATA HD.

Total cost to buy one of these units from HP, eMachines, or some other low-end company would be $349 and include a default installation of Windows XP Home Edition.

The problem is, hard-core PC users will have spent the better part of a year convincing themselves that such a design is strictly for those gay-ass Mac-heads, and spend their money on a conventional tower system.

The lack of DVI would make it less suitable for the entertainment system (most of your better projectors and HDTV systems now support DVI inputs), and the lack of Firewire or 802.11g/Bluetooth antennas makes it actually harder to expand than the mini, which (let's face it) is not a particularly flexible machine by PC user standards.

If they are really smart, they will spend the extra money to preserve that other staple of PC laptops: The PCMCIA slot. This will present the opportunity to add Firewire, wireless networking, and a few other things which mini users will already be taking for granted.

But like I said, nothing like this is likely to happen until after the industry witnesses the Mac mini selling like hotcakes, and then they will need a couple months of R&D to react.

There's actually a chance that the mini will turn out to be the "Mac cube" of 2005, in which case nobody will bother to copy it, and after it's discontinued used minis will sell for above the original retail price on eBay, just because it will become such a curious novelty of days gone by.

Re:Nothing

[Golias]

As has been pointed out elsewhere, that system is not just "ugly" (as if most Slashdotters would care), it's also bigger, louder, slower, and more expensive than the Mac mini.

For once, Apple has released the fastest & cheapest system available in its class.

Yes, you can get a much faster & cheaper desktop system than the G5 iMac.

You can probably also build a sweet AMD system for the price of the G5 tower.

The iBook remains fairly competitive, but far from the cheapest laptop out there.

However, if you are looking for a small & quiet media room brick, there is no comparison: Mac mini wins.

This is even true if you completely ignore the advantages of OS X, and say you want a Debian Linux system. For this form factor (or anything close to it), the Mac mini is still the best deal out there.

Re:Nothing

[Blondie-Wan]

I think there's a bigger, more basic question here. If the Mac mini's specs are all things Omega1045 is looking for in the computer he intends to get (which I'm assuming is the case, since he's trying to spec out a PC that matches or beats the mini's features), and the mini is cheap enough for his budget ("... for the same price (or less)," he says he wants his PC to be), and (most importantly) his wife wants the mini, why doesn't he just get the mini?

I'm asking this only partly from the perspective of wondering what's wrong with the Mac mini in his eyes (I accept there may be any number of legit reasons for wanting a PC instead, like wanting to use certain software, etc.). I'm asking largely because I wonder why he'd prefer to get something other than what the wife wants - not something specific, mind you, but just anything that's not the one thing she's suggesting, despite the fact that from his own query's wording it apparently features everything he wants in the new computer, and at a price he can't match with another system. It sounds a bit like he's just arbitrarily refusing to get the Mac mini to spite her, or something. I hope that's not the case (and I do apologize if I've mischaracterized his intent; I just don't understand what he's thinking)...

Mini copies on the way?

[nekoniku]

How lond do you think it will take PC manufacturers to answer Apple's latest entry into the market?

If the Mini sells well, look for copies in less than a year; if it's not a big hit, the big guys (Dell, HP, et al) won't bother.

Hey! My Mom Can Build One!

[rueger]

Before all of the do-it-yourself system builders leap in, check out this post from Yesterday's discussion:

Leo McGarry said, and I can't think of a better summary,

"Howzabout you buy a computer instead of hand-carving your own microchips?

People love to talk about how you can build a top-flight desktop computer for $3.25 plus two subway tokens and some kind of weird-ass coin that you dug out of your sofa that's got "Røølï" written on it, but what they curiously omit is the fact that if you took all the time you'd spend gathering parts and assembling them and worked a minimum-wage job at some fast food place instead, you'd earn hundreds of dollars. So the real cost of this "It's Shake-n-Bake, and I helped!" special is, in fact, several times higher than the sum of the price tags on the hundreds of inscrutable parts that went into it.

People who say "I can build that for less" are either not bothering to account for their time or just flat-out lying, because the plain truth of the matter is that if they could, somebody already would have, and you'd be able to just go out to a 7-11 and buy the damn thing for half off with the purchase of a medium or large fountain drink."

Re:Hey! My Mom Can Build One!

[Omega1045]

For me building it can be fun and educational. It isn't all about the money.

Also, I am wondering about the cost for local vendors trying to compete with the big guys. Can a local computer shop put one of these together to compete with the Mac? Even with a free (as in beer) OS?

Re:Hey! My Mom Can Build One!

[jxyama]

>It isn't all about the money.

it is when it's the dominant parameter being used to make comparisons.

Re:Hey! My Mom Can Build One!

[cosmo7]

You're forgetting the time spent filling out rebate cards. If you're building a PC from scratch you're going to spend a week clipping barcodes.

Plus half of the rebates don't come through. Yes, Belkin, I'm talking about YOU. Bastards.

Cappuccino

[attaboy]

I bought a fanless mini pc from CappuccinoPC. I don't see the exact model I purchased on their site, but it was close to this one:

http://www.cappuccinopc.com/slimpro-sp300-fanless. asp

1.65"H x 5.75"W x 9.84"D

Slightly bigger than the mini-mac, and not as stylish.

They have a variety of other systems, some with fans, some without. Some of them come in a brushed silver color.

They have cases, barebones, and fully functional offerings. I bought a complete PC and it was under $600.

Re:Cappuccino

[iluvcapra]

I bought a fanless mini pc from CappuccinoPC.

I looked this up and it is a pretty awesome box for an embedded app. For someone who just wants a computer, I think it's probably not worth the hassle.

I get a total of $808 configured thus:

Pentium mobile at 650Mhz (the fastest they'll install for you)

PC133 256MB RAM

40GB 4200 RPM drive

Slot-loading combo drive

DOS-formatted drive (add $159 for XP Pro)

Integrated graphics, (no VRAM cited, so I assume this is shared.)

it does have PS/2 and serial ports, but only USB1.1. It includes a firewire.

I don't think this is the right machine for the application, and even though it is a much lesser machine than the Mini, it still is more expensive.

Cool box, just waiting for hacking, but not for the punters.

Re:Cappuccino

[Temporal]

The Mac mini comes with OSX, which is at least equivalent to XP Pro (certainly much better than XP Home). So, you can't blame the price difference on that.

Think different.

[Just Some Guy]

What computers are currently on the market to compete with this? When my wife asks for the 'cute little Mac', what PC can I buy instead that will take up as little space and do as much for the same price (or less)?

None, and you can't.

You want something small and functional for your breakfast bar, right? Then just get the Mac Mini and be done with it. It'll play your music, browse the web, and read your email every bit as well as your Windows PC, so what's the problem? Are you planning to play Doom 3 over eggs and bacon?

Re:Think different.

[Temporal]

Are you planning to play Doom 3 over eggs and bacon?

Incidentally, with the Mac mini, he could.

Re:Think different.

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, no he couldn't (click on "System Requirements" once that page has loaded.) The Mac Mini has only 32 MB of video RAM; Doom 3 wants 64 MB. The Mac Mini is up to 1.42 GHz; Doom 3 wants at least 1.5 GHz.

Granted, the CPU is less likely to be a concern, but the video RAM is a definite problem. Doom 3 is likely to crawl on the Mini because of it.

Re:Think different.

[martinX]

Get her the damn Mac min! Then when you ask for sex or a blow-job you'll be more likely to get one.

"She wanted a Mac mini and I told her I could build her a better PC myself. Now when I ask for sex, she hands me the baby oil and tells me to do it myself. My name is Wayne Kerr and I wish I was a Switcher."

The couch

[hab136]

what PC can I buy instead that will take up as little space and do as much for the same price (or less)?

My wife asked me for one thing, how can I give her something else entirely and act all pompous like I went out of my way for her? I like sleeping on the couch.

Sorry, has to be said

[captnitro]

When my wife asks for the 'cute little Mac', what PC can I buy instead that will take up as little space and do as much for the same price (or less)?

You could just buy the Mac Mini. I know it seems silly, but this is exactly what Apple is hoping you'll do. For iLife, a BSD userland, and some other fun stuff, how can you resist? I know you can, thank you peanut gallery.

I tried pricing something similar a while ago -- look at OEM parts, and consider putting the whole thing into a cardboard box; you can do well with an Athlon 64, a couple hundred megs of memory, and a bulk HD. Size, however.. that's hard. MiniITX doesn't come cheap.

Re:Sorry, has to be said

[unclethursday]

I could, but I know jack and shiat about Mac OS.

Not much to learn, really. Replance CTRL for Command (Apple key) for most functions, and then you know what to do if coming from a Windows world. CMD+C = copy, CMD+V = paste, etc.

I got my first Mac in March of '04, and within a few hours of just fooling around, I was moving just as quickly as I do on Windows. Now, after using it lmost exclusively for the past 9 months, I do things much fater on it than I could on my Windows box.

It's seriously easy as hell to learn, and plug in a USB multi-button mouse and work like you do on Windows for most things (only thing I miss is clicking the scroll wheel and moving up or down to quickly scroll through documents and such). Other than that, the OS is a snap to use.

Re:Sorry, has to be said

[Golias]

If OS X actually does scare away a smart guy like you, why not buy the Mac mini and then load Linux on it.

Seriously. If a Linux box is what you want, and you want it as small and quiet as the mini, than a mini running Debian or YDL is hands-down the cheapest way to do it.

However, before you reformat and pull out those Debian disks, I suggest you give OS X a brief trial.

- It's pre-loaded with the only browser that compares favorably with Mozila's offerings, and Mozila runs fine in OS X if that's your preference.

-Bring up the terminal window and you have access to a bash prompt.

- It has a remarkably simple e-mail app with thread tracking and spam filtering, but feel free to run command-prompt mail programs if you are a hard-core Linux/BSD CLI guy.

- It comes with Apache pre-installed. Launching httpd is as simple as clicking a box in the network preferences.

- The remote desktop tool works great, and also comes pre-installed. ssh is loaded up and ready if you prefer.

- The developer disk (which is not pre-loaded, but ships with every copy of OS X) contains an outstanding set of programming tools.

- Aqua is a more consistent and functional GUI than anything the free *nix world has ever offered. The Finder window in 10.3 or later alone is worth the price of admission.

- BBEdit, the preferred text editor of most Mac users who do dev work in text-based environments, is fairly cheap and far in advance of TextPad (the best inexpensive Windows-based text editor I've seen to date.) If you are a text-based programmer, start using BBEdit and you just might turn into a raving Mac Bigot. Plus, if you really love *nix tools, you can just run Emacs or vi.

Re:Sorry, has to be said

[elemental23]

BBEdit, the preferred text editor of most Mac users who do dev work in text-based environments, is fairly cheap

One better: TextWranger -- basically BBEdit without a few things -- is now free.

Buy her what she wants!

[True Freak]

"When my wife asks for the 'cute little Mac', what PC can I buy instead"

Why would you want a PC when a Mac can be had for that low price. What does the PC have that the Mac doesn't?

Mac mini has low-end specs; SFF low-end PC?

[JayDiggity]

Yes, the Mac mini is a small form factor, and that's part of what makes it so appealing. However, the specs are all far from top-of-the-line: an older processor, 256 MB RAM, 40 GB HD, etc. etc. This all helps keeps the cost down. Trying to build something specifications-equivalent in a PC involves buying a low-end processor and a small motherboard to match (not to mention the other components), and I don't know if it can be done. The integration that Apple can pull together with its hardware enables low-end but tightly integrated computers such as the Mac mini to exist. The componentization of the PC world does not lend itself to a build-it-yourself Mac mini equivalent.

an obvious flame inducing topic...

[jxyama]

but as a mac user, i wouldn't touch a PC even if it's $200 cheaper and smaller than mac mini for the simple reason it won't be running OS X.

Re:an obvious flame inducing topic...

[dn15]

some apps are in /bin and some are /Applications

Huh? The UNIX-ish stuff is in /bin and the like, yes. But the programs that normal humans use are in /Applications. The average Mac user doesn't know (and doesn't need to know) that /bin even exists. I don't understand how this is even a complaint worth making.

Re:I dunno Cliff

[Jord]

Funny enough Safari comes with a built-in spell checker :)

Get the mac

[nickinho]

I really don't think its hygeinic to have windows in the kitchen, all those viruses and worms

;-)

Re:First thing that popped into my head...

[Senjutsu]

So, when asked "When my wife asks for the 'cute little Mac', what PC can I buy instead that will take up as little space and do as much for the same price (or less)", your suggestion is a box that's significantly larger and heavier and costs nearly 4x as much?

Re:I dunno Cliff

[I_Love_Pocky!]

Firefox would include a speller checker

I use a great Firefox extension called Spellbound.

zerg

[Lord Omlette]

Here's the quote that fortune spit out @ the bottom of this page:

A friend of mine won't get a divorce, because he hates lawyers more than he hates his wife.

Can you name a single man here on slashdot who wouldn't get hot @ the thought of his wife wanting to use a UNIX-based operating system?

Get her the Mac Mini and get the AppleCare stuff so you won't have to worry about a damn thing in the event terrorists strike. And when she asks for help, you put one arm around her to work the keyboard, reach around her to grab the mouse, and whisper in her ear, "Oh no, baby, Safari is so much better than IE. Let me show you..."

*cough*

Re:The doghouse

[aztektum]

What is wrong with people?

Hubris. It's the same reason we can't stop and ask for directions.

Re:I dunno Cliff

[Smurf]

Not only does it work for html text boxes, but for virtually all Cocoa text boxes.

Furthermore: it's a snap to switch to a different language (Cmd-shift-; and select the new language) in case you frequently use more than one.

And since this works for all Cocoa applications, you also get it in Mail applications, word processors, and even graphics packages (because the developers get it for free).

Re:Not to Troll but...

[Drakino]

HP Recalls

Dell Recalls

Make sure never to buy from them either, since aparently a company admitting a problem and fixing it for free is too much for you to deal with. While your at it, make sure to sell any vehicle you own, as it is likely that company has also issued recall notices on some of their products. Next up, make sure to avoid the grocery stores. They have recall notices posted all the time too.

Re:the answer is no

[andreMA]

...do you really want to be nagged every time she cant use expose or a lickable UI?

Besides, she inquired about the Mini. Getting that rather than something you consider equivalent would increase the odds of her doing an expose of her own and licking your UI.

Don't forget what makes a computer worth using

[amichalo]

It goes without saying but everyone is forgetting:

It's the software stupid!

The Mac mini is bundles with:
- BSD OS that is VVF (virtually virus free)
- Quicken '05
- iTunes
- iPhoto
- iMovie
- iDVD (if you opt for the Super Drive option)
- Garage Band
- Safari
- iCal
- Mail.app
- Address Book
- iSync

Without the software, the hardware is just something to look at (in the case of the Mac mini) or hide (in the case of most PC cases).

man oh man

[zpok]

A geek is a geek is a geek is a hopeless non-empathic cheap bastard who doesn't know his luck.

Your wife ASKS you to buy A SPECIFIC COMPUTER. And you think that's a problem. You're going to go to all the trouble to buy her something "better" - read: not what SHE asks but what YOU want to buy.

Dude, you've got a problem, and it's not necessarily with computers.

Re:Apple does pretty well, if it hits your niche..

[HeghmoH]

[Expandability] is no problem with $400 PCs and is rather
important for anyone with even mild computer-geek tendencies

Careful there, "computer-geek" is a pretty general word.

I make a living programming and I love to screw around with my computer, but I hate screwing around with hardware. I want a computer that Just Works so I can play with robots or writing a laser-pointer tracker or whatever I feel like doing this particular day of the week. I don't like fooling around with internal components and I don't like having to repair my OS. For this reason, I own a Mac.

please save yourself

[rinoid]

Don't hassle dude. Just buy the Mac.

What is more sexy?? A BSD based Mac Mini with bash, a fast processor, iLife, DVI out to RCA, real video card and more at 5.5x5.5 or a Win Longhorn Bathroom edition 6.5x7.5 with no DVI??

Huh? Tell me! I mean really.

Suck It Up

[White Roses]

When my wife asks for the 'cute little Mac', what PC can I buy instead that will take up as little space and do as much for the same price (or less)?

[flamethrower on]
How about sucking it up and getting her the Mac Mini? Afraid it won't integrate with your Windows XP Home network or something? Afraid you might like it better than your own machines? Afraid your wife might like it better than you? Get over it.

If she does ask for a Mac, and you buy her a PC instead, it really won't matter what size it is, because it'll be sleeping in the bed with her, while you're sleeping in the garage. Think about all the other times she asked for a diamond and you bought her a bigger CZ instead.
[/flamethrower off]

Re:Apple does pretty well, if it hits your niche..

[TomorrowPlusX]

Exactly. A lot of us geeks would rather express our geek sides by dicking around writing code and making our computers to *intersting* things -- not by shelling out bucks for the latest and greatest XYZ card to give me 64000 channel surround sound or whatever.

Personally, I feel great pleasure in optimizing my code. Just this morning I've got my robotics simulator ( in this case doing quadruped simulation, with many motors, sensors and whatnot, but it can simulate just about anything you can describe to it ) running at 100 Hz physics and 30 fps using less than 10% CPU -- on my meager 12" powerbook. Now, *that* is being a geek. Soon I'll be able to simulate swarms of robotic spiders, each with its own brain and with all with realistic physics. And all for fun.

I think a lot of people today mistake consumerism for geekery. A lot of people I hear being referred to as "experts" are really just people who know how to go to CompUSA or whatever and buy a card, stick it in, and run the windows installer for its driver. [sarcasm]Way to go. That's some HARD stuff. You must be really, really l33t[/sarcasm]

Rant over.