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The Forgotten Huygens Experiment

jdray writes "An experiment onboard the Huygens probe didn't run as planned because someone forgot to turn it on. The team lead for the experiment has put eighteen years of his life into the project, just to watch it not happen after a seven year ride to its destination on Titan."

71 of 556 comments (clear)

  1. Only one word can be used to describe this... by sjrstory · · Score: 5, Funny

    1. Doh
    Doh (d)

    Interj.

    a) A Gen-X colloquialism conveying an overall feeling of frustration.

    b) Used to express a feeling one has after realizing they have been tricked, misled, scammed, swindled, etc..

    c) Used to boast or chide the victim of such tomfoolery

    d) Coined by the animated sitcom character Homer Simpson in the mid to late eighties, "Doh" is similar to other one word, one syllable explicatives in that it is a quick and succinct summary of one's aggravation, but differs in that it was an accepted substitute to similarly censored words.

    1. Re:Only one word can be used to describe this... by rokzy · · Score: 3, Informative

      D'oh comes from a Laurel and Hardey character. but Homer's version is a lot quicker because animation time is valuable.

    2. Re:Only one word can be used to describe this... by bcattwoo · · Score: 2, Interesting
      There is a difference between "duh" and "doh". "Duh" is generally directed at someone else to point out an obvious mistake, such as not knowing the difference between "duh" and "doh". When you realize that you yourself have made such a mistake (or say accidently reboot the server, drop a bowling ball on your foot, etc.), you exclaim "doh!" in frustrated recognition.

      Let's practice:

      Me: "'Duh' and 'doh' are not the same thing, duh!"

      You: "Doh!"

    3. Re:Only one word can be used to describe this... by NearlyHeadless · · Score: 3, Informative
      Although it's been mentioned before on Slashdot, it's nice to remember the total data loss that was avoided by averted by Boris Smeds discovering a huge problem early enough to do something about it.

      (I was reminded of this by a story on NPR this morning.)

  2. Sad :-( by martingunnarsson · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Damn that's sad. Don't they have checklists for these things??

    --
    Martin
    1. Re:Sad :-( by Yazeran · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm sure they did, but as another has already said, it's not a single man job. Besides, not very command to a spacecraft can be simulated and tested in advance. Some commands have to be sent at the exact right moment, not before, in order to make something as comples as the Heugens project work.

      It's a pity that the comand to activate channel A on the Cassini spacecraft was not sent as data was lost, but one can only hope that future missions do not make the same mistake.

      Incidently this event demonstrate why complex interplanatory / interstellar missions can likely not be sucesfully made without eiter a vastly more advanced artificial inteligence in the on-board compter or a human crew able to make on the spot decisions in order to correct mistakes and / or unanticipated events / discoveries.

      Yours Yazeran

      Plan: To go to Mars one day with a hammer.

    2. Re:Sad :-( by supergiovane · · Score: 4, Funny
      Damn that's sad. Don't they have checklists for these things??

      Sure they have!

      1. Spend 18 years planning a space mission.
      2. ???
      3. Profit!

      They just realized what was at point 2.

      --
      Signatures are for stupids.
    3. Re:Sad :-( by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well actually, I used to do software testing. You simply simulate the special conditions when things are supposed to happen. That's generally why satellites cost so damn much. Yes, there are some exotic materials that go into them, but the chief expense is testing.

      --
      "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
      --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
  3. Redundancy... by Burb · · Score: 3, Insightful
    I understand that half the camera pictures were lost because they were transmitted on channel A. Interestingly enough, an article in New Scientist quoted one of the mission planners as being scathing about the scientists' choice to use the 2 channels for increased bandwidth...

    This post is from memory. Please feel free to correct errors and ridicule me for factual inconsistencies.

    --

    1. Re:Redundancy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      David Southwood (the ESA head of science) was the one who said so - he said "That's scientists trying to screw the system. We don't have redundant systems to get more data down, we have redundant systems for redundancy." http://www.newscientist.com/channel/space/mg185248 33.700

    2. Re:Redundancy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In the case of pictures, the scientists' choice was correct. If both channels work, you get twice the number of pictures, if only one channel works you get the same as if you transmitted the same pictures on both channels because one interleaved set of pictures is as good as the other. (I assume that taking more pictures is relatively cheap.)

      Non-substitutable experiments on the other hand...

    3. Re:Redundancy... by PyramidHead · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's not quite true, because there's only a limited amount of time available for transmission. Think of it as having two 56k modems and only one hour to send as much data as you possibly can. If you send the same data on both modems, your chances of getting all data correct are improved. But you can alternatively send different data on each channel, which will let you send double the amount of data if you don't mind the risk of loosing some parts. Even though it went wrong, the *chance* of getting twice as much return data as expected outweighs the loss of single sets of results.

    4. Re:Redundancy... by freddled · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You are all completely missing the point.

      Two channels were provided in case one failed but the imaging team decided to use the two channels to double the number of images that they could return. Southwood's point is that they imaging team used the redundant channel to increase volume. That was wrong. They didn't loose much but they did loose some of the peices of the panoramic picture. Science is about quality not quantity, so they were wrong to do that.

      Second. Channel A - the one that was lost - was used to measure the windspeed around the lander by measuring the doppler effects. They couldn't repeat the experiment on channel B because it was less stable. In this case there was no option for redundancy unless they added a second channel A transmitter. Since the reciever was not switched on, that wouldn't have helped. However, the radio telescope network picked up the Channel A transmissions and will be able to recover the doppler information and rescue the wind speed experiment.

      Don't be suprised if some boffin manages to extract the data stream too, at some point. That will be quite an achievement.

    5. Re:Redundancy... by arkanes · · Score: 3, Informative
      Science is about quality not quantity, so they were wrong to do that.

      This is totally false, as an scientist will tell you. Quantity is a characteristic of quality. In this case, splitting the data stream is actually the best choice, because you get both redudency of the communications infrastructure, but you also get redundency of data. The thing to remember is that there was a limited communications window and increasing bandwidth meant that the quality of the data they were going to get back would be greatly increased. They didn't affect redudency because, while they didn't get exactly the same data, they got a working subset of it.

    6. Re:Redundancy... by Tablizer · · Score: 4, Informative

      Perhaps it could be illustrated as follows:

      Assume a probe has the bandwidth to send a total of 8 images on two channels, 4 on each channel, on the way down. Each image will be represented by the digits 1 through 8.

      With exact redundancy:

      A: 1357
      B: 1357

      With alternating redundancy:

      A: 1357
      B: 2468

      With exact redundency, if you receive both channels, you only get 4 total images in the end. With alternating redundancy, if both channels work, you get up to 8 images in the end. But if one fails, you still get 4, just like under exact redundancy. Thus, it seems like the better choice because you get twice as many images if both channels happen to work, but both techniques still send only 4 images if one channel fails.

  4. In a strange way, it makes me feel better by WegianWarrior · · Score: 5, Funny

    I forgot to turn on my cellphone this morning, and missed a call from someone dear to me. Still, reading this makes me realise that somewhere out there, someone is feeling even worse over forgetting to turn something on.

    --
    Everything in the world is controlled by a small, evil group to which, unfortunately, no one you know belongs.
    1. Re:In a strange way, it makes me feel better by chimpo13 · · Score: 5, Funny

      I forgot to put my condom on.

      Sincerely,

      Your Father

    2. Re:In a strange way, it makes me feel better by krumms · · Score: 3, Funny

      I am a bastard, you insensitive clod!

    3. Re:In a strange way, it makes me feel better by martingunnarsson · · Score: 4, Funny

      At least you got turned on...

      --
      Martin
  5. Shit happens. by KiloByte · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ... especially in this field of work. If you have a project this big, the chance that nothing will go wrong are simply infinitessimal. Do you remember the last time when you wrote a program of 100 lines without doing a single error?

    We should really praise the gods that the rest of Huygens mission was a grand success.

    --
    The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
    1. Re:Shit happens. by grozzie2 · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Do you remember the last time when you wrote a program of 100 lines without doing a single error?

      I may not have got it all right on the first go around, but you can rest assured, i got it right after the testing and before it was deployed...

      In my primary field of work, 'shit happens' is just not an acceptable excuse, I'm a pilot. We use checklists precisely for that reason, to make sure that shit doesn't happen. Every flight has a few phases where even one minor screw up can have serious consequences, so we have checks and balances built into the system to make sure that small screw up does NOT happen.

      I know the software folks here on /. always want to make excuses about 'its hard' and 'its to complicated', but, it's actually not hard, and not to complicated. complex systems are designed and built every day in the aerospace field, systems that many lives depend on. We take it for granted that they are properly designed with failsafe modes, they can deal with problems on the fly, and they do not puke up and die when things become abnormal. Same goes for our crews, they train extensively to make sure they fully understand all operational modes, and they can deal with them. Once that's all done, we write books full of checklists, to make sure the details do not get missed at a critical time.

      'I forgot' or 'shit happens' is just not an excuse. In reality, it's an admission of unprofessional conduct. Billions of euros spent, many many man years of effort, and you want to take 'forgot' or 'shit happens' as an acceptable excuse? there is no acceptable excuse, those are just admissions of shoddy management and operations. Those are terms that are not even in the vocabulary of true professionals.

      Every time I read here on /. about how 'professional' programmers seem to think that it's to hard to actually take the time and effort to write failsafe code, and test it as such, I ask myself how many people would die if thier attitudes were used developing the flight management systems in our aircraft.

      Thanks to government regulations, i can only fly 9 days a month, that leaves me with a lot of time to operate my other business. We do software development, embedded systems for mission critical applications. We do deploy equipment into life critical situations, so, for our work, 'shit happens' and 'i forgot' just dont exist in the vocabulary. We use checklists to ensure that all testing covers all forseeable abnormal conditions, up to and including partial failure of various hardware. for your typical 'desktop' developer, equivalent testing would be along the lines of making sure programs handle gracefully things like having the hard drive removed from it's computer while the program is still running. They may not function at full capacity anymore, but it's not reason enough to have the thing just puke up and crash, it needs to fall into a failsafe mode that's prepared to deal with the detail of 'no local storage available anymore'. the code to handle this scenario will likely not 'get it right' on the first try, but, it'll surely be right before the product goes into release.

      Looking at the money spent, and the multitude of man years spent on developing the lander for this mission, to hear that a significant experiment was lost becase somebody forgot to turn it on, is just beyond comprehension. this goes way beyond unprofessional, and well past the line we would draw for 'incompetent'.

    2. Re:Shit happens. by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 5, Insightful
      I know the software folks here on /. always want to make excuses about 'its hard' and 'its to complicated', but, it's actually not hard, and not to complicated.
      [...]
      We do deploy equipment into life critical situations, so, for our work, 'shit happens' and 'i forgot' just dont exist in the vocabulary. We use checklists to ensure that all testing covers all forseeable abnormal conditions, up to and including partial failure of various hardware.
      You're right... up to a point. The amount of robust coding, testing, and many other things like security, are always subject to a balance of costs and benefits. Rigorous testing is expensive, and in many software applications it might be wise to, say, not do a complete regression test on a minor release since the cost of that test outweighs the risk of a bug slipping through.

      In your field of business, I imagine you cannot easily deploy quick fixes (to embedded systems), and major bugs in life critical situations are obviously not acceptable. So you do rigorous tests and code reviews. In my line of business however, bugs are acceptable. Sometimes a bug makes it into production... users will moan, and we'll have to spend a bit extra on writing and deploying the fix, but the cost is lower than doing a full test on every release.

      I agree with you that software developers should realise the importance of testing, and take a critical look at their own testing and coding procedures... often it isn't that hard or expensive to make real improvements.
      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    3. Re:Shit happens. by TheAJofOZ · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I know the software folks here on /. always want to make excuses about 'its hard' and 'its to complicated', but, it's actually not hard, and not to complicated. complex systems are designed and built every day in the aerospace field, systems that many lives depend on.

      Which is precisely why there has never been a software glitch in a plane system. You know, like the TCAS system which saw ghost planes and told pilots to avoid them (noted in IEEE Spectrum), or any of the cases cited here or here. Nope, aerospace engineers never screw up.

      We do deploy equipment into life critical situations, so, for our work, 'shit happens' and 'i forgot' just dont exist in the vocabulary.

      Funny you should mention life critical because one well known software glitch was the THERAC-25 which killed 6 people due to 2 software bugs.

      We use checklists to ensure that all testing covers all forseeable abnormal conditions, up to and including partial failure of various hardware.

      Which means your software barfs in unforeseeable situations and in cases of full hardware failure. Thus, your software is not fail-safe at all. Welcome to the real world - shit happens whether you like it or not. The unforeseeable will eventuate and no matter how much redundancy you have it is still possible for all the systems to fail at once. Denying that that possibility exists is unprofessional and dangerous.

    4. Re:Shit happens. by clausiam · · Score: 2, Insightful
      >>"We use checklists to ensure that all testing covers all forseeable abnormal conditions"
      >You cannot forsee all abnormal conditions

      I think that's why he said all forseeable (sic) abnormal conditions. That subset must by definition be foreseeable :-)

    5. Re:Shit happens. by IcePop456 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I agree completely. One minor detail you overlooked is time and money. I have the desire to do all of the above, but our wonderful marketing/leadership team decides the first hint silicon works means release to production.

      Why? The quicker we can sell it, the faster our "time to profit" is. Doesn't that just sound like a coporate metric that promotes quality?

      Thankfully we do not work on life critical systems.

    6. Re:Shit happens. by Illserve · · Score: 2, Insightful

      To be fair to the Cassini mission, they only have one trial to test it.

      The system of checklists you are using has been finetuned over many decades and probably *millions* of flights. And your operating procedures evolved alongside the hardware.

      I'm sure on their millionth flight, the Cassini operation would be just as airtight.

      If we were to turn back the clock to the first weeks of commercial airline travel, I imagine things were quite a bit different than the industry you describe.

    7. Re:Shit happens. by Oxygen99 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well. Precisely. Coding is hard, but not any more so than designing a building, an aircraft or an automobile. However, neither is it any less hard, so why is software engineering not accorded anything like as much respect as other disciplines? Do you see Airbus outsourcing airtcraft designs to the far east to save a few Euro's? No. Yet for some reason management always believes software can be written cheaper and quicker.

      Admittedly lives don't depend on 90% of the software any of us here writes, but that isn't to say it isn't complex or demanding and requires complex, demanding testing to ensure high standards of reliability.

      If those resources aren't allocated, then I'm afraid 'Shit Happens' is very definitely an excuse.

      --
      I had a dream, bright and carefree, but now there's doubt and gravity
    8. Re:Shit happens. by Kombat · · Score: 2, Informative

      Oh, so if you don't mind, why exactly do airplanes crash and kill hundreds of people?

      I'm going from memory here, but I think it's something like 80% pilot/crew error, 15% weather (which could still be considered pilot error), and 5% mechanical failure. So if those pilots/crew had been following the proper procedure and protocol, then the shit *wouldn't* happen (except in those rare cases where mechanical error is to blame, and even then, most of those cases can be traced back to a mechanic cutting corners and not following said checklists/protocol). The original poster is right. Checklists prevent the shit from happening. When the shit does happen, it's because someone wasn't following the checklists.

      --
      Like woodworking? Build your own picture frames.
    9. Re:Shit happens. by Dracolytch · · Score: 2, Interesting

      While I agree with the majority of your post, I think some of the expectations you place on ordinary software are a bit unrealistic. That is, in part, why daily use software is written differently than critical-systems software.

      It's always a balance between the probability of a given failure, the concequences of a given failure, and the cost of adapting to that error. Different types of projects have different ways of looking at this balance.

      What are the chances of a HDD being removed (or totally failing) while Photoshop is being used? Let's say... 1 in 10 million. What is the concequence? Worst case, 8 hours of work. What is the cost of anticipating such a failure, and dealing with it gracefully? Significant (You'd have a better idea of the man-hours involved than I would).

      Now, compare that with how it handles a corrupt data file. What are the chances that a file you open isn't properly formatted? Uncommon, but it does happen... 1 in 1000, give or take an order. What is the concequence? Person can't do their job. What are the costs involved for dealing with a bad file? Significant, but not huge. Apparently it was worth it, because PhotoShop can read some non-standard formats, and fails gracefully with all others.

      In the case if critical embedded systems, things are quite different. The chances of something going wrong are still fairly small... 1 in 100,000 say. But the concequence is the loss of life, which is very, very important. It becomes easy to justify the extra expense of writing systems that can handle these situations.

      Adding fault tolerance for events that occur outside the software can dramatically increase the scope of requirements, and thus increase development time and cost. In most day to day situations, you have to balance your cost and your feature set. In day to day software, the return on investment for this kind of development has a near zero return on investment, and would be a bad business/project management decision.

      ~D

      --
      This sig has been enciphered with a one-time pad. It could say almost anything.
    10. Re:Shit happens. by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 2, Insightful
      It's never about costs. Mistakes ALWAYS cost more than thorough testing. It's about time constraints. Pure and simple.

      You pay to do it right, or you pay to do it wrong, pay to clean it up, and THEN pay to do it right.

      Test scripts are your friend. If you haven't been introduced to TCL (Tool Command Language) yet, you should seriously think about it.

      --
      "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
      --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
    11. Re:Shit happens. by arkanes · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Of course, something like 80% of crashes are due to pilot error....

      Shit does happen. People skip over items on checklists every day. Little things break constantly. Usually it's not enough to cause a catastrophic failure. Now, whoever was in charge of the specific checklist DID screw up, and they screwed up hard, and they need to own up to that. But the potential for failure is part of complex systems and the human element is part of that.

      The OPs rant about software is just stupid, though. Software is complicated, and it is hard, and one of the ways you battle that is by reducing scope, like he does for his embedded systems. But there's a limit to how much complexity you can toss away, and the more complex your software the harder it is to verify it.

      That's totally aside from the other human element involved, which is that people who won't blink twice over having two totally redudant billion dollar datacenters won't authorize 6 months of testing.

    12. Re:Shit happens. by dcw3 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      However, I don't know if I really want software companies making desktop software fault tolerant to things such as the hard drive being removed.

      Agreed, however I think we're talking primarily about mission critical systems in this case...situations where lives can be lost, or big bucks wasted. Not switching on the system, is pure incompetence...heads should roll (or maybe I need to RTFA).

      As a defense contractor, our customers usually have high expectations (and rightfully so), though it may vary depending upon the application. Our bugs reports are prioritized, and some customers demand that we have no Pri-1 or 2 (out of 5) bugs at delivery, which requires alot of testing, time, and budget. The area where I see us getting burned most often is when management wins a contract based upon promises to deliver something way to quickly (but we couldn't have won the contract otherwise)...very common in the industry. It's a constant struggle between engineering and management...we know we need to win the contracts, but we also want to do the job right.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    13. Re:Shit happens. by Doomdark · · Score: 3, Insightful
      It's never about costs. Mistakes ALWAYS cost more than thorough testing.

      Well, that's kind of nitpicking. Although "time is money" is just a slogan, it does point to the fact that both timeline and money are constraints that affect test coverage that can be done. And cost/benefit analysis should be done for testing as well as for implementation: proper amount of testing to do is a compromise based on many things (type of system, expertise of implementers, aggressiveness of implementation/release schedule etc. etc.). So I would argue that it's ALWAYS about cost, in broad sense (delaying a release costs money -- that's the main reason to avoid delays).

      And finally, there are cases where defects just are cheaper to have, than doing rigorours testing. Like everything in software engineering, impact of defects is relative; there are no absolute guidelines.

      --
      I like paying taxes. With them I buy civilization -- Oliver Wendell Holmes
  6. Re:Depression. by essreenim · · Score: 2, Informative

    Officials for the European Space Agency said last week they would investigate to learn what happened. They were not available for comment on Thursday, nor did NASA officials immediately respond to telephone messages...

    Yeah, both groups know how to shut up and watch each others backs when it all goes f*@$ ways : )

    By the way, I thought they ended up using channel B because they did not take the full effect of the Doppler shift for channel A into account. Can anyine correct me on this? ..

  7. Re:Depression. by MoonFog · · Score: 2, Informative

    FTA: The probe was to transmit data on two channels, A and B, Atkinson said. His Doppler wind experiment was to use Channel A, a very stable frequency.

    But the order to activate the receiver, or oscillator, for Channel A was never sent, so the entire mission operated through Channel B, which is less stable, Atkinson said.


    I guess it makes it even worse that it was purely a human error.

  8. Human error by Mikmorg · · Score: 3, Funny

    Lets just hope noone forgets to turn on the anti-missile lasers on the orbiting satellites. Bigger mistakes can happen. :)

    --
    Codito, ergo sum.
  9. losing data? by Maegashira · · Score: 5, Funny

    i spent 23 years of my life to get a girlfriend. i deleted all my pr0n for her. now she is gone. life is truly a misery.

  10. D'oh by Hognoxious · · Score: 4, Funny

    I never understood why the apostrophe is there. What letter has been omitted? Maybe Homer somehow believes that saying "some water" in French is swearing or something.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    1. Re:D'oh by El+Kevbo · · Score: 4, Funny

      Try small-town Quebec. That's where real french is spoken.

      Uh, wouldn't it be France where real French is spoken?

    2. Re:D'oh by SamSim · · Score: 5, Informative

      Roughly five to ten O's have been omitted. Homer's trademark expression was voice actor Dan Castellaneta's interpretation "[ANNOYED GRUNT]" (which is how "D'oh!" has always been written in scripts for Simpsons episodes). It's based on the "Dooooooooooh!" from the Laurel and Hardy routines, only shortened considerably. Source

    3. Re:D'oh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      The french spoken in France and elsewhere is quite modern...in small town Quebec they speak a 200-year-old variant almost...it's quite unpalatable to the french ear really.

    4. Re:D'oh by smnoel · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Actually the french from Quebec could be refered as Royal French from the King's Court.

      When France colonized North-America several folks from across France spoke french but a different dialect. (ex: southern france, northern france etc..etc)

      In order for these colonizers to speak to each other the King decreed that the French spoken in the Royal Court will be used to communicate in New France so that everyone could understand each other.

      France abandonned the colonies in North America to the english or sold land to the USA. (louisianne)

      We all know the rest. Off with their heads in France.
      The Bourgeoisie (spelling?) rose to the top of the food chain in France and of course established different laws. The French from France is Bourgeois. (Common french)

      Meanwhile in Canada little has changed the french is derived from the Royal Court.

      Which one is the correct french? They are both different and rich in expressions.

      As people saying that the people in Quebec use more english words than in france, that is pure bullshit.

      quick example:
      Someone from France will say "Bon week-end"
      Weekend is an english term.

      It is used commonly in France.

      Most Quebecers will say "Bonne fin de semaine".

      As you can see, the French from France are getting lazy thru the years just like some terms in the French Canadian language. The advantage in Quebec is that people there can write laws that promote the correct use of the language and also on immigration so that they do not lose "la langue francaise".

      on this note,

      Passez une belle fin de semaine!

      P.S. Sorry from grammar and spelling.

    5. Re:D'oh by spaceyhackerlady · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Uh, wouldn't it be France where real French is spoken?

      I've heard at least three claims to be the "best" French:

      Quebec, because they use the fewest anglicismes (thanks in part to the Office quebecois de la langue francaise), though their French maintains features that are archaic in France.

      Liege, where les Liegeois universally claim they speak the best French.

      The Loire Valley, where la Touraine is supposedly the best dialect of the bunch.

      Moi? J'sais pas...(Me? Dunno...)

      ...laura

  11. somebody send him... by worf_mo · · Score: 5, Funny

    ... a link to today's /. poll

  12. Nothing was lost, all data is safe by thesp · · Score: 5, Informative

    The article isn't quite correct. A fuller description would take a while to type, so I summarise:

    Two redundant radio channels were used to get data from the lander to the orbiter, which relays the data to earth. The signal for the orbiter to start listening on the high-sensitivity channel, channel A, was never given. The data was transmitted redundantly on both channels, except for images and the output of the Doppler wind speed experiment. Fortunately, all was not lost, as scientists donated radio telescope time around the earth to search directly for the A signal, despite it not being relayed via the orbiter. Thanks to this increase in sensitivity, the data acquired was good enough to fulfill all objectives of all experiments.

    So everyone can relax and get one with the analysis...

  13. Don't worry by Illserve · · Score: 3, Funny

    I'm sure they'll have plenty of time to try again.

    They send these missions all the time don't they?

  14. What about the grad students? by Jonathan · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I assume (like practically all scientific projects) grad students were involved in the design. While the failure to turn on the experiment may be an embarrassment to the primary investigator, how does it affect the grad students? Do they just leave the "results" section of their dissertations blank? Do they need to restart their graduate research with another project?

    1. Re:What about the grad students? by imsabbel · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This probe lauchned years ago. Every grad student involved in building/designing would long now have his PhD...

      --
      HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?
  15. No problem... by Gallowsgod · · Score: 5, Funny

    Find the person who was responsible for this, send him or her up there to turn it on, and tell them not to expect any overtime for it. In fact, the costs for sending them up should be taken out of their salary.

    Might sound a bit hard, but it's the only way they'll learn.

    --

    The belief in a biblical god is an ignorant one
  16. Latest results from analysis by zrq · · Score: 5, Informative
    The Huygens team held a press conference this morning and presented some of the results of their analysis so far.

    The first scientific assessments of Huygens' data were presented during a press conference at ESA head office in Paris on 21 January.

    Results include:
    • Geological evidence for precipitation, erosion, mechanical abrasion and other fluvial activity says that the physical processes shaping Titan are much the same as those shaping Earth
    • Huygens' data provide strong evidence for liquids flowing on Titan. However, the fluid involved is methane.
    • ... while many of Earth's familiar geophysical processes occur on Titan, the chemistry involved is quite different. Instead of liquid water, Titan has liquid methane. Instead of silicate rocks, Titan has frozen water ice. Instead of dirt, Titan has hydrocarbon particles settling out of the atmosphere, and instead of lava, Titanian volcanoes spew very cold ice ...
    1. Re:Latest results from analysis by zrq · · Score: 2, Interesting

      They would have to have very very good thermal insulation.

      ... the fluid involved is methane, a simple organic compound that can exist as a liquid or gas at Titan's sub-170C temperatures ..

      From what I have heard, this is one of the reasons the probe had such a short lifespan, batteries don't last long at these kind of temperatures.
      I suspect that this would make even a rover type robot quite a difficult challenge.

  17. Re:Ouch... by grozzie2 · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Damn the bad luck....

    You are confusing bad luck with incomptence. it would be bad luck if the system failed when told to activate. It's incomptence if they left the activation codes out of the system. This is a case of the latter, not the former.

  18. Recovering lost data.. by adeyadey · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It would be fantastic if they could, but I think they are only talking about using the phase/doppler shift of the carrier signal to infer something about the location/movement of the probe. The high frequency data channel is probably lost in the noise.

    As someone who has been involved in large coding projects (100,000 lines +) while I understand how easy it is for bugs to creep in, I do think the programming bug that effectively did not switch on the second channel should have been picked up on a project of this size/budget. Sadly, too often, the bigger the bureaucracy, the more mistakes like this you have - small keen teams often do better.

    Regarding image quality on Huygens - in hindsight could that have been done better?

    I realise there are constraints - 80's hardware, limited batteries, 8k bit channel, etc, but here are my casual observations..

    Much higher resolution CCD's were available at the time - Cassini had a 1 megapixel unit. Low res data could have been transmitted during descent, but hi-res data could have been stored & broadcast after landing. As it is, the radio spent a lot of time sending identical images of the landing site. Another idea that gets a lot more out of a video data stream is variable jpg compression & only transmitting the signal difference between certain frames. That way you can use hi res CCDs then compress-until-it-fits the 8K data channel. When there is a lot of data/change in the pictures you compress a lot, but if certain cameras are not returning any or little change in the pictures, or if the picture has no detail, more channel space is available to send either hi-resolution or even pre-recorded data.

    Furthermore, why the assumption that the probe will be destroyed on landing? Why not switch off Huygens when Cassini dissapears below the horizon, and switch it on for the next day? (titan's day is 16 days long..) The batteries lasted many hours after the landing, and the craft did cruise in standby mode for 16 days, so this might have been possible.

    I think they could have returned all the data we got anyway up to the landing, and designed a 2nd phase with more data being sent, with little change to mission profile/weight/etc..

    One thing I dont understand - why are the triplets out of sequence? The early pictures show the landing site! Is this just some artifact of the transmission process?

    If I didnt know any better, I would say that final picture of the rocks was just a "joke" by the programmer, a frame to put in when the data/checksum fails for that camera.. :-)

    --
    "You lied to me! There is a Swansea!"
  19. What about using the audio? by syntap · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Many of us downloaded and listened to the audio of the probe falling through Titan's atmosphere... could it be possible that processing the audio with known things such as downward velocity of the probe and assuming what it was flying through was methane (or whatever hypothesized atmospheric makeup), etc could yield similar wind speed estimates?

  20. Suddenly Heard on Channel A... by Ogman · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...DOH!

    --
    But Officer, I DID read the f**king article!
  21. three words for you... by Suchetha · · Score: 4, Funny

    off. site. backup.

    women come, women go, but pr0n is forever

    Suchetha

    --

    learn from yesterday, plan for tomorrow, party tonight
    or one out of three ain't bad
  22. Re:NITPICK Re:D'oh by Dashing+Leech · · Score: 2, Funny
    ""D'eau" would be used to mean "of water" - "une bouteille d'eau" == "a bottle of water"."

    Yes, and I'm not sure why we'd have to go to French to get a meaning for D'oh. Homer is English-speaking and "dough" is an English word. Plus it it what doughnuts are made from. I figure since Americans shortened "doughnuts" to "donuts", and Homer is lazy and likes donuts, he just shortened it to "D'oh". (=

    It also could be a contraction for "damn, oh!" or preferably "oh damn".

  23. Re:Shame they were only black and white. by KontinMonet · · Score: 2, Informative

    It's done that way specifically so that post processing gets the colour balance right. Other info is used to balance the colour. Hence the raw images are greyscale.

    --
    Did he inhale?
  24. Re:Shame they were only black and white. by Speare · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Black and white sensors have higher resolution, just as black and white film has higher resolution. Resolution is more than the number of pixels, it's the valuable ability to resolve actual data with those photosensors.

    Your little consumer digicam that did not cost a hundred thousand dollars is arranged with cheap little colored filters, cutting out over half of the photons that arrive in the camera, just so you can get the right shade of pink on your girlfriend's tummy. Scientists would rather collect all the photons they can, thanks.

    Scientists do use filters now and then. Spirit and Opportunity use black and white cameras, but they can use something like NINE different filters to block out all frequencies except certain bands of interest. They don't just select Red, Green, Blue, but also various bands of near and far Infrared and Ultraviolet too. Those probes were designed later, and were going to be used on a longer mission, where power and available light energy would be greater. Huygens was built earlier, and going to a distant and dark moon where they'd be lucky if the probe lasted a couple of hours.

    Is their logic still a mystery to you?

    --
    [ .sig file not found ]
  25. Blackadder did it too.. by adeyadey · · Score: 4, Funny

    Edmund Blackadder: Right, let's get the book. Now; Baldrick, where's the manuscript?

    Baldrick: You mean the big papery thing tied up with string?

    E: Yes, Baldrick -- the manuscript belonging to Dr. Johnson.

    B: You mean the baity fellow in the black coat who just left?

    E: Yes, Baldrick -- Dr. Johnson.

    B: So you're asking where the big papery thing tied up with string belonging
    to the baity fellow in the black coat who just left is.

    E: Yes, Baldrick, I am, and if you don't answer, then the booted bony thing
    with five toes at the end of my leg will soon connect sharply with the
    soft dangly collection of objects in your trousers. For the last time,
    Baldrick: Where is Dr. Johnson's manuscript?

    B: On the fire.

    E: (shocked) On the *what*?

    B: The hot orangy thing under the stony mantlepiece.

    E: You *burned* the Dictionary?

    B: Yup.

    --
    "You lied to me! There is a Swansea!"
  26. Re:Depression. by dolmen.fr · · Score: 2, Informative

    The problem with channel A is not related to the Doppler problem but due to a human error as reported in the article.

    See also what I reported on saturday.

  27. 18 years of his life? by MidnightBrewer · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You know, if I were this guy, I would have been calling them once every five minutes saying, "Hey, did you remember to get my experiment going?" If it's really that important, why let someone else screw it up for you? It's your baby, your responsibility.

    --
    "Give a man fire, and he'll be warm for a day; set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life
  28. Re:Shame they were only black and white. by mikael · · Score: 3, Informative

    They use monochrome images for a very good reason.

    To capture a colour image using CCD arrays, there are the cheap, the expensive and economic ways. The cheap way (consumer cameras) is to place itty-bitty colour filters over the entire CCD array. In this way each cell captures either red,green,blue or white.
    The expensive way is to have separate CCD chips for every wavelength of light you want to capture.

    However, when an image is captured by a CCD array, there is a very small amount of bleed from one CCD pixel into it's neighbours. You can compensate for this by making use of image process techniques like convolution/sharpening. But these methods are completely useless with the cheap way of capturing colour images (each of RGBW will have blended with its neighbours of a different colour).

    This can be done with the expensive way (professional digital cameras), but you are restricted to three wavelengths of light.

    Alternatively, you can have one CCD chip, and a series of calibrated colour filters that can be swapped over. In that way you, have a low energy budget of one CCD chip, and the flexbility of analysing a scene in multiple light wavelengths, each of which can be processed separately.

    --
    Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
  29. Slashdot post is wrong by Anonymous+Writer · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This is what the slashdot post says...

    An experiment onboard the Huygens probe didn't run as planned because someone forgot to turn it on.

    But I got this out of your linked article...

    Huygens was programmed to transmit telemetry and scientific data to NASA's Cassini Saturn orbiter for relay to Earth using two redundant S-band radio systems. Channel A was the sole path for an experiment to measure wind speeds by studying tiny frequency changes caused by Huygens' motion. In one other deliberate departure from full redundancy, pictures from Tomasko's descent imager were split up, with each channel carrying 350 pictures.

    As it turned out, Cassini never listened to channel A because of a software commanding error. The receiver on the orbiter was never commanded to turn on, according to officials with the European Space Agency.
    ...
    Even the lost wind measurement data will be made up, thanks to a remarkable effort on the ground to monitor a faint carrier signal broadcast by Huygens - the equivalent of a cell phone call at a distance of 751 million miles - using a network of 18 radio telescopes around the world. That data, which not as precise as the Doppler information that was lost, should fill in the blanks.
    And I also found this article online. Here's an excerpt...
    Atkinson had a Doppler wind experiment onboard the probe which landed on Saturn's moon Titan after dropping from the Cassini spacecraft. Atkinson and other team members estimate they had put in nearly eighty- man years to bring that experiment to a conclusion this past weekend.

    However, a command to turn on the instrument being used by Atkinson's team was not in the command sequence. The entire experiment was lost. There is some hope that some transmitted data was picked up by radio telescopes back here on earth, and if so, then an Earth- based version of the Doppler experiment may still be possible. ...
    The Cassini mission, he says, has been incredibly successful, and he says eventually they'll get the wind measurements they needed, but definitely not how they planned, and he says it will take a long, long time.

    The reports are confusing and I can't tell what happened. Was there a measurement device onboard the Huygens probe gathering data and transmitting it (like the Slashdot story suggests), or was the data supposed to come from the measurement of the signal from the Huygens probe in relation to the Cassini orbiter?

    If it was the former, is the data not as good because the Earth radio telescopes didn't pick up the entire signal, because there was signal degradation, or because they have to piece all the data together from all the different radio telescopes? If it was the latter, is the data not as precise because of the proximity from the transmitter to the receiver?

    Either way, the Slashdot post is wrong. If it was a measurement device solely on the Huygens probe, it was turned on- it was the relay onboard the Cassini orbiter that wasn't turned on. If the data was meant to be gathered from the proximity of the transmitter to the receiver, then the experiment wasn't onboard the Huygens probe but was actually meant to be a collaboration between the probe and the orbiter.

  30. Re:Shit DOES happen...and HAS happened. by penguinsula · · Score: 3, Informative
    Complex system interactivity and tight coupling have caused accidents in many industries and in the transport sector.

    Charles Perrow has an excellent analysis of those type of accidents in Nuclear Plants, Petrochemical industries, Aircraft & Airways, Dams etc.

    (Normal Accidents: Living with High-Risk Technologies, by Charles Perrow, Basic Books, NY, 1984.) http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~piccard/entropy/perrow. html

    Most of these accidents and failures were not the result of lack of money or due to operator error. In this case, I doubt it was a simple as forgetting to push a button on a control panel. This is not an excuse, but a reasonable explanation for a whole range of accidents involving complex systems.

  31. Re:Already done it by Da+Fokka · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You assume that heavily penalizing the person responsible will actually prevent these errors. If this were true, your comment would have some merit. But I believe such a measure would actually be counter-effective. Since the person responsible quite likely did not *plan* this to go wrong, he did not actively deliberate the pro's and con's of such a failure. Therefore the only effect will be even more pressure, with an even larger chance of failure.

  32. How apropos to today's poll.... by FuzzyDaddy · · Score: 2, Funny

    Which is, what's the most expensive hardware you've ever ruined?

    --
    It's not wasting time, I'm educating myself.
  33. Looks like they've recovered the data by rpjs · · Score: 2, Informative

    According to this BBC report they've recovered most of the lost data by receiving it directly from the Huygens lander using radio telescopes.

  34. So it Goes by Shafe · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Mishaps like these are what make me grind my teeth when thinking about NASA and the space program. I've always been a staunch supporter of the space program, but failures like these make me question their value. How could however many dozen PhD's who spent 18 years FORGET to turn on an experiment like this? You'd think there'd be an if (module.enabled) {} check somewhere in the code that would throw a master alarm in the else {} clause.

    This is why Burt Rutan et al. will continue to succeed: failure is not an option! If you forget to enable a system that cost millions of dollars, you're out of business.

    Not that the mission is a total loss. But I'm still baffled by how NASA can make these mistakes. They're the type of mistakes that give some credibility to the conspiracy theorists, arguing that NASA didn't really lose the Mars Observer, the Polar Lander, or the Mars Climate Orbiter. Rather, NASA found evidence of extraterrestrial life and is covering it up. We probably won't know until the second space race heats up, with China, India and perhaps Brazil, but also Rutan, Branson, Bezos, et al. gunning for the moon and Mars. Onward!

    1. Re:So it Goes by DerekLyons · · Score: 2, Informative
      This is why Burt Rutan et al. will continue to succeed: failure is not an option!
      Huh? Simply because failure is not an option does not mean that failure will not occur. (And note that on three out of three high altitude flights SS1 had significant problems.)
      Not that the mission is a total loss. But I'm still baffled by how NASA can make these mistakes.
      NASA didn't make the mistake... The ESA did. The ESA screwed up the command sequences they gave to to NASA to transmit. (The Huygens reciever onboard Cassini was provided and controlled by the ESA.)
  35. You wouldn't see the fireball even from Saturn by Anders+Andersson · · Score: 2, Informative
    Send probe with a canister of oxygen with it, descend into the atmosphere, and issue a detonate command.

    What would happen? Probably about the same as if you dropped a canister of methane into Earth's atmosphere and detonated it. A big fireball, yes, but a canister of methane isn't going to consume all the oxygen on Earth. Nor will that canister of oxygen consume all the methane on Titan.

    On Titan, warning signs reading "flammable" are posted in the oxygen mines (they extract small amounts of oxygen from solid-rock water), not around the natural methane lakes.