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Bridging India's Digital Divide With Linux
Kinnu provides a pointer to this story about India's increasing use of Linux. They mention a battlefield PDA running Linux, making Linux the standard OS for students, and some more about the Simputer.
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It is unlikely that Linus Torvalds, creator of Linux, ever intended this open-source operating system to be put to military use.
You're absolutely right. He wasn't looking to make money off of Linux. If he had, military use would have been the first place he would have brought Linux to.
Called SATHI (short for situational awareness and tactical hand-held information, and Hindi for buddy), the 875-gram device helps soldiers coordinate with one another on the battlefield. It is one of the many spin-offs of a low-cost computer developed indigenously, the basic version of which is available on the market for about US$200.
So a two pound device that has some sort of communication and GPS capabilities? Something like other handheld GPS units like the Garmin Rino which shows your location and the locations of others holding Rinos while having FRS radios attached. Crazy!
While I applaud their efforts in creating these devices (supercomputers, educational computer, inexpensive computers for the masses, etc) this wasn't terribly informative or interesting. More well-known background information that could have been left off the front page.
Yet another large group to make use of open source. Lets just hope this trend keeps moving forward and we see many more take up the initiative, not a bad application for a free piece of software, hopefully this will show others tha tthis is one possible way forward!
Can anybody explain why *BSD can't catch a break? Everything is "linux this" and "linux that."
that's actually a good point. i've wondered it too. it's just as free as linux.
i think it's because up to this point, linux has a good name in embedded devices, and freebsd is known to have problems even in some laptops.
but i do think freebsd should be considered, especially due to it has a potential to have a smaller footprint.
Marge, get me your address book, 4 beers, and my conversation hat.
This sort of thing really needs to hit america. Its really hard to convince americans (even computer science students) to even look at linux. They have windows so pounded in to their heads they won't even look at something else. I'm glad that the rest of the world is starting to pick up the ball though, eventually we won't be able to avoid it here in america (unless it ends up like the poor, poor metric system)
--untwisted
*BSD struggles a with hardware support, this is the main reason that people are slow on the uptake of it for applications such as this, I would be all for *BSD, I use it on a regular basis and am pleased with it however I always install it on older machines so the hardware is supported.
Hmm...let's see, on one hand there's "Windows Lite" and on the other there's open, free Linux.
Is it really that surprising that India chooses Linux?
NEW DELHI, Jan 27 (IPS/TerraViva) - Anyone who doubts the power of Linux needs only to get hold of a nifty, hand-held device that the Indian army plans to issue to soldiers in its million strong army.
http://www.ipsnews.net/new_nota.asp?idnews=27191
On what planet are Apples cheaper than PCs?
Reject Fear - Embrace Hope
..I'm moving to India. I'm
a) more likely to get a job
b) get a better rate of pay with regards to living expenses
and
c) more likely to be able to use linux and not windoze at work.
now wheres that plane ticket gone...
"So there he is, risen from the dead. Like that fella, E. T." - Father Ted Crilly
Imagine if the vast armies in Bangalore and Hyderabad get to know Linux and open source software in general, and all start scratching their personal itches. This could mean a giant boost for both existing and new open source projects.
It's being Fourth World and the poor Indian folks can't pay for Windows I'm afraid.
first of all, the story is about military embedded usage.
secondly, tell me how many people in the western world actually pay for windows?, a huge chunk of people use an illegal copy.
thirdly, you don't know shit about india, so don't talk.
It'd be just desserts if this sinks the companies involved. They want employees to understand that a "world economy" creates natural downward forces on jobs in affluent nations but want every customer to pay like they live in the U.S.
Irregardless, managing for long-term viability is a dead concept.
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try.
-- Dr. Spock, stardate 2822-3.
Impossible learning curve of Linux?
I made an 80 year old man run linux on his first ever computer. He was writing, managing and printing documents after a couple of hours. I think it might be you doing the sucking, not linux.
The system had the verbosity of HTML combined with all the readability of compiled assembly viewed as bitmap images
Richard Stallman also visited the President and interestingly, the President had prepared for the meeting by downloading and reading Stallman's biography from the Internet."
For the curious, the President of India's website runs Apache/PHP on Linux.
An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
Linux is getting more attention, which *could* imply that it just develops faster. From this point of view it's probably understandable all the fuss about it
"I think the metric system is the tool of the devil! My car gets 40 rods to the hogshead and that's the way I likes it!"
- Abe Simpson
I'm not good in groups. It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent. - Q
Really?
How did you set it up? (Which distro/window managers/applications, etc) I'd love to be able to hook up some of my relatives running Linux, but I don't spend a lot of time experimenting with different distros, and I'm not going to set them up running gentoo.
I believe it is being shunned because of the license. The GPL folks don't want their code being stolen by commercial interests without proper recognition and proper sharing(give back to the community). The BSD license allows the greedy to virtually steel and covet your code when it suits them. We can't win a war that way. :)
Linux is winning the popularity contest via the GLP, no?
The government which is strong enough to protect you from everything is strong enough to take everything from you.
Apples are everywhere in Washington state. They grow right on the trees.
I know I left that rimshot around here somewhere...
I'm not good in groups. It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent. - Q
As a gentoo user i know that gentoo is not for the faint of heart.
I just set up a pretty standard fedora box with gnome, openoffice and firefox.
The system had the verbosity of HTML combined with all the readability of compiled assembly viewed as bitmap images
Articles like this keep making me think that if there is ever a desktop revolution, that it will happen in a developing nation like India. They aren't quite so tied to Windows.
// file: mice.h
#include "frickin_lasers.h"
I'm not surprised... Linux isn't THAT bad to learn. If a person wants to dedicate even the smallest amount of time, they can learn to use just about anything with a UI (console is a bit more tricky). Apps are pretty cookie-cutter now, so as long as you know how to start them you should be ok.
.conf file or setting. I'm not saying it's common, but it happens.
I will give the anonymous coward the point that OS X is easier to learn. The UI is more polished, and there's less worry about messing with some obscure
As for cheaper than PC's... sorry. If you want, you could argue the mac-mini thing, or that the quality of a PowerBook is much better than the quality of a Dell Inspiron of the same price. But in reality, Apples are more expensive.
As for a country choosing a platform to begin a major CIS/IS venture, linux is the obvious choice. It's free, open, and can run on older hardware. Plus, knowing the inner-workings helps a person understand a lot about computers.
I have no problem with India becoming a information powerhouse, or with them getting consulting business. My only problem is with the companies that replace full time employees with a consulting firm in India.
Isn't this exactly the mandate of Ubuntu? A super easy to install, maintain, and use OS for the developing world. (And "developing world" also applies to many communities with few resources in developed countries). It might not be 100% there yet, but from all the brochures, its all about different people hugging.
It is unlikely that Linus Torvalds, creator of Linux, ever intended this open-source operating system to be put to military use.
Then again, what was created to entertain the Chinese became a staple tool of warfare. (see also, Gunpowder)
But taking good with bad applications is what you must be prepared for when creating anything. However, I keep reading these article replies speaking of the advantage it gives India over the US unless we 'get on the wagon' but it doesn't seem to be happening. Why? The majority of American people are lazy. Even people that I told about the new Windows Genuine Scam to get everyone buying Windows XP refuse to learn something new once they've become comfortable with their system that they know how to work...sort of (Yelling to kids: How do I fix this?). It's that sort of mentality that makes the majority of America's technology practices a relic.
Besides, while other countries lead the way in developing new technology, America seems to be changing its focus to that of arbitrating everything possible on the internet. Afterall, What good is having a website with your last name in the domain if your last name is Dell? None, Dell jumped onto the wagon like MS to covet domains.
Don't feel bad America, stay lazy, make sloppy code, and become a virtual despot. But one the bright side, you'll own the rights to every URL you can think of.
Perfecting Discordia
www.stevenvansickle.com
Military communications should not be easily jammed or decrypted. Consumer-level GPS handhelds do not fit here !
It already has. From what apple claims they are the largest distributor of Unix based OS (even more than linux).
But I suspect that *BSD can't quite 'catch on', is probably because of the main stream demand. Also personally I think a pure *BSD installation is probably only good for servers. While majority of computer users would probably want something more friendly. Seriously though... Can you picture Joe Moe using *BSD on his desktop? didn't think so.
As for as the number of programmers who are using Linux, it is still a very miniscule percentage. Most of the IT companies use Windows for the desktops and the Sysadmins sometimes bullshit the management that having Linux on the desktop means more support costs. Windows and most of the apps running on it are available at dirt cheap prices for the pirated copies. Slowly, the student community is picking up Linux and are doing their academic projects on Linux. They are now having Linux in their home PCs along with Windows. However the profs in the academia are now pushing for Linux based projects. This should mean that Linux would pick up in a big way among the next generation IT workers (3-5 years from now)
--Hemanth P.S.
If you are around the age of 30 like me you will remember toying with 8-bit computers, not the most user friendly and easy to use computers. No gui, no mouse and often no disk drive.
But we loved those 8-bit machines, they were fresh, something new and exciting. Just like a PC will be to someone who has never owned a computer before. If you are starting out in computing now then you aren't likely to have 10 or so years of Windows experience behind you. You will approach things with an open mind. Windows users typically believe Linux is a very hard OS, it isn't, it's a lot more open and straight forward. It's just different to Windows like German is a different language to English.
Because releasing something under a BSD license will result in a big corporation taking your hard work, smack a logo on it and after having made it incompatible with your version, charge YOU for it.
BSD under a GPL license would make all the difference.
Ill hammer it in again, its the friggin license that puts everybody off, BSD is nice otherwise.
HTTP/1.1 400
Less educated people like Americans? And to be fair, I am an American. But we seem to be getting more and more stupid. Look who just got re-elected. We allowed, and are still allowing, companies like Microsoft to do their dirty dealings. If you ask me, the rest of the world is leapfrogging us in technology because our opinion of ourselves is too high. We need to quit believing that we are the best and that all we need to do is pray to Jesus to fix all our problems.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
I'm glad to see Linux adoption by other countries' governments -- yes, even their militaries -- but the title to this story is just ridiculous. The idea that FOSS can "bridge" the staggering gulf between rich and poor in India just beggars belief. Let's not fool ourselves by pretending that Linux means anything to the citizens of India beyond the elite. Maybe in a few decades...
Well, I'm not saying that we're doing poorly at picking up linux here in america, I'm just saying that linux being the leading choice (or however it was phrased) for students over there is pretty big. My university's (Univerity of Pittsburgh) CS department runs a mix of linux and windows (I had to use a solaris lab for java last semester) however, right now I'm taking a PDA programming course, and the first project we did was installing cygwin! I mean, come on! Even WITH having to install cygwin to use pilrc (the palm tool we need) kids are STILL saying linux is useless. Obviously if we HAVE to install a linux emulator on windows there is SOME use for it? Now the real kick in the butt is the fact that linux is NOT supported here at pitt. Even though every student gets a shell account on a unix box, if you want to run linux in a dorm, GOOD LUCK. I finally got things running, but not without a fight... gah.
--untwisted
"that's actually a good point. I've wondered it too. it's just as free as Linux."
:)
You this is just asking for it. I am a Linux user but lets face it the GPL has more rules about what you can and can not do with than license BSD is under. I would have to say it is all in how you define "free".
I have to say in all honesty that BSD is now caching up to if not passing Linux in the number of users and probably now beats Linux on the desktop. How? Mac OS/X.
The reason that I use Linux over BSD? honestly it is because I can find more documentation online and more books. I know Linux I have installed BSD but it was just different enough that it would take too much time to master.
Frankly I would have to say it is all good
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
Exactly. That $499 mac mini is actually around $1200 by the time you get it set up to do actually work (add 802.11, bluetooth, RAM, 80GByte Hard Drive, decent LCD monitor). I'm pretty sure I can get a comparable PC from Dell for around half that price... heck, I can get a laptop from Dell for $700.
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
Does anyone else find it amusing that they used English words to form a Hindi acronym?
Says something about Indian culture.
Since you want more info, here it is. And it is not your gps+mobile. I have played around with the device and it is actually a very very capable handheld. A friend of mine did the body design, the the specs were simple. We intend it to be used in vilages, so it should be immune to drops from about 4 feet and also immune from dust and little rainfall exposure :)
My Aurora : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o91ZsGwJYyg
FB : https://www.facebook.com/TanveersPhotography
Exactly, Asia writes for cheap the expensive software we buy in the US.
And they build their own entire IT infrastructure on free software and new incompatible standards (see all that wireless stuff in China), so they won't even be a viable market for the last few standing US enterprises.
We're double screwed.
You seem to have drawn a direct correlation between intelligence and the extent to which a person agrees with your ideology. Might be worth rethinking.
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
Information can't be stolen, only copied. Calling it theft is hyperbole and intellectually dishonest.
"We can't win a war that way."
War? What war? I thought people develop and use OSS because it better meets their needs, not to destroy "the competition". Your aggressive sabre-rattling only contributes to the hostility OSS elicits from corporations.
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
SATHI has self-desctruct and remote-destruct capabilities.
see the brochure at: http://www.ncoretech.com/sathi/pdf/brochue.pdf
The official site for SATHI is: http://www.ncoretech.com/sathi/
It contains pictures of the device and show examples of soldiers handling it.
A complete PDF brochure for the product is available at: http://www.ncoretech.com/sathi/pdf/brochue.pdf
It looks rugged, modern and seems to have been built with certain ergonomic principles in mind (e.g., one-handed use during battle).
Remember it's a bad idea to distribute binaries of something you would like to keep secret anyway, it could always be reverse-engineered.
I know I should not feed this troll... but: You only have to provide sources when you distribute a GPL software to third parties. As long as the Indian Army keep it for their own use only, there is no violation of the GPL. Internal modifications without disclosure is also guaranteed by all licenses that meet the OSI standards.
Yes, exactly as the parent post said. The Apple corporation took the hard work of the BSD developers, smacked a logo on it, and made it incompatible with the original version. Now, if any of the people who wrote the original BSD code wants to use OS X they will have to pay for it. QED.
Why wouldn't India go with OS that 1) they control (while they don't control Linux, they can more easily audit it and tailor applications to their own needs than with a commercial OS that they may/may not be able to audit), 2) costs them less up front, and 3) depends on having lots of smart people around, which coincidentally, they happen to have.
If you have lots of people and some money, the tolerance for throwing people at a problem is greater than that of throwing money at a problem. The past histories of OSes and the desire of their manufacturers for control (MS, for example, with its integration of various apps. into the OS) and their desires either for subscriptions for software or for "software solutions" (meaning we won't tell you how much it will cost so that you can't find a cheaper alternative) indicate that lots of places might be better off investing in its own OS than buying a commercial one.
So you got everything running, and figured out how to make linux work in your dorm without any tech support help.
Did you learn something in the process?
Looks like the college is doing its job to me.
(And supporting a solaris shell vs supporting students who want to run linux are WAY different environments)
tell me how many people in the western world actually pay for windows?, a huge chunk of people use an illegal copy.
Most hardware suppliers (Dell, HP, Gateway) bundle the OS with computer purchases. A few people build their own computers and may be tempted to install an illegal copy. People upgrading to the latest OS may also be tempted to install an illegal copy. But the people who build and upgrade are a little more saavy than the average user, thus being a minority. I'd say most average users in the western world own a legitimate copy of their OS.
you don't know shit about india, so don't talk.
I know the average annual salary for someone living in India was $450 a couple years ago. The dollar's decline against foreign currencies may have recently inflated that a little. However, I don't see how the average Indian can lay down $100 for a legitimate copy of Windows XP Home or $200 for Pro.
Like Chewbacca, that doesn't make sense.
I think you'll find that Apple did a little more than simply smacking a logo on BSD.
It's official. Most of you are morons.
Actually it's becuase if I develop something under the BSD license then any company can come and take what I have done and repackage it...and sell it without any credit to me what so ever. Under the GPL they have to atleast extend the same right to others that I extended to them by releasing it under the GPL in the first place.
what?
So what if Argentina, Brazil, Bulgaria, Chile, Colombia, France, Italy and Peru mandate the use of Open Source in their governments; and who cares if Bahrain, Belgium, China and Hong Kong, Costa Rica, Germany, Iceland, Israel, Malaysia, Poland, Portugal, Philippines and South Africa have stated policies of it's preference. Even if India joins these countries, it's not like they're any good with computers... What's that? Half of the world's population is represented by the aforementioned countries? Big Whoop! Take my word: future wars won't be fought on technological fronts, and world economies won't rely on efficiency or security...
Which is his point exactly....we aren't developing for BSD. We are developing for linux which means more software for Linux....and thus the "users" get a more functional OS than if they run BSD.
what?
I think the largest problem with India bridging the divide with Linux is (or was) poor language support. Thank fully these problems have been slowly addressed using Unicode.
However there are still issues outstanding. All the major Indian scripts encoded using Unicode are based on Devanagari (used to write Hindi and other languages). This has caused headaches for some scripts and has made other scripts unneccessarily complex. Take for example Gurmukhi (the script used to write Punjabi) - Gurmukhi is a simple script and doesn't have the complexities involved in some other Indic scripts. However to maintain compatibility with other scripts, independent vowels are encoded seperately which is unnatural for Gurmukhi. This causes problems with typing and adds and extra layer of complexity.
As the author of the Punjabi Computing Resource Centre I have actively been looking into such issues (others exist). However as I see it, we have been forced to accept a standard that hasn't been fully thought out for individual Indian scripts. It is a standard we can live with, but is not perfect. A lot can be blamed on ISCII!
Could not have said it better myself.
what?
Not really Mac OS/X is bsd.
Yes there are a lot of books on Mac OS/X but not that many on BSD on intel.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
You're full of shit. The BSD license requires that proper credits be given. In fact that's the only requirement.
How can you not understand this, and yet espouse the greatness of the much more complex GPL?
They can't afford it outside the workplace.
I'm about four hours away from flying back to India for a work gig. Last time I was over there (first two weeks of January) I was hoping I could pick up an ipod for cheap, as 1 USD == 43.5 rupee. Turns out they were just as pricy as their US counter parts. Imported electronic goods (that I saw) were as pricy, if not more so for them. Difference being, their salary is much lower. Normal cost of living stuff was dirt cheap, but not electronics. Someone mentioned that 1000 rs a day was a pretty good gig in New Delhi (more down in Bangalore). At $500USD for the mini-mac (sans keyboard, monitor, and needed memory) OSX would be a huge luxury item.
+++ UGUCAUCGUAUUUCU
I'm glad to see Linux adoption by other countries' governments -- yes, even their militaries -- but the title to this story is just ridiculous. The idea that FOSS can "bridge" the staggering gulf between rich and poor in India just beggars belief. Let's not fool ourselves by pretending that Linux means anything to the citizens of India beyond the elite.
... certainly in the context of mass media involving any copying and/or distribution of artistic works.
... even more occasionally a government will nationalize an invention and throw open the doors of innovation to all (the best example is the US Government's seizure of the Wright Brother's aeroplane patent during World War II to stimulate innovation and advancement, in a very successful effort to catch up with the Europeans in aviation).
... or are you saying solutions which take time and don't come to fruition in a short time are by definition "rediculous."
Clearly you do not understand Architectures of Control and how they affect not only our daily lives, but the daily lives of everyone on the planet.
Copyright is an architecture of control, empowering publishers at the expense of writers (despite what the wording of the constitution implies) and readers, musicians and listeners, etc. It allows a cartel, and in some places government, to keep a very tight reign on most aspects of culture
Patents are an architecture of control, allowing cartels to own a stranglehold on most proven and emergent technologies. Occasionally the odd invention will slip through and change the world
There are others architectures of control, but these two limit knowledge and expression, the two most important things to the self-empowerment of any group of people, be they peasants in the rice paddies of backwoods Asia or tech-savvy cyberpunks in downtown New York.
Stallman's GPL is the first, and by far the most successful, hack on the architecture of control known as Copyright, reversing its role from one of restrictive encumberance to one of empowerment, and as such has been wildly successful beyond anyone's expectations.
That a workable system (GNU/Linux) exists that can empower the engineers and technicians of an entire country, indeed all of the developing world, cannot be overstated. This is the first step toward building modern economies, using modern technologies, that don't ship currency wholesale out of the developing economy and into the pockets of Microsoft.
This is huge, and the ripple effects will most certainly help improve the lives of even the most destitute peasants, if for no other reason than more money in the local economy means a bigger local economy, which in turn means more wealth and capital flowing, i.e. more opportunity and a decrase in poverty.
Maybe in a few decades...
So, in other words Linux can help bridge the staggering gulf between rich and poor. You contradict your very own comment
Hint: none of these problems will be solved in a day, or even a year. But free software (and the paradigms of a public commons in technology and, perhaps, other fundamental infrastructures of society it fosters) is already having a positive impact, and the trends will only accelerate.
Unless, of course, US style software patents become the world norm. Then the Architectures of Control will close the gap Stallman's GPL and other, similiar licenses have opened, and free software will become a memory (and social justice, an impossible dream).
Information and expression are the heart of freedom, and of any group's ability to improve its own condition. Take those away, either through traditional authoritarian means, or through more subtle copyright and patent restrictions on the enabling technologies, and you kill it dead.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
You're full of shit.
Not really..
Does OSX give credit to the original developers on the cover of the box? I believe that is what they were talking about. Of course credit is given buried somewhere in the source code. But aside from the credit that remains in the source code, which isn't required to be released at all, the company using your BSD code has to do nothing else.
So I see very little if any benefit from using the BSD license, since I want my source code to be available to anyone, and anyone who uses it to share their modifications in the same way.
espouse the greatness of the much more complex GPL?
Its complex? Really? Seemed rather simple to me. I read it a few times. Its actually somewhat enjoyable to read, IMO. Also I enjoy using the GPL because I know how it forces people like you to do things you don't want to do.. share.
So many people seem like selfish children throwing tantrums from my perspective.
My mind was jumping around, you are right. But I didn't mean to. If you take my harsher anti-Bush statements out of that, it pretty much holds true to fact.
We, as Americans, are losing the education battle with other parts of the world. We are a consumer society, for the most part we don't value education as much as we should. Our society is sliding towards being concerned with money and material things more than education. Our current President supports these ideals as well. Linux and the OSS philosophy don't line up very well with the "corporate think" that we have. Other countries are willing to embrace them. I think that this will give them a distinct advantage in the future of technology. I also think that Americans as a whole have a very "Rah Rah" attitude, and are uneducated about the rest of the world. This is a disadvantage, IMO. Empires fall for different reasons, and hubris is usually one of them.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
Combine that with the white news media, desirous of reaffirming their cultural myths of racial superiority, choosing to focus on the status of the latter as a means of defaming our people, and it is not hard to realize why ignorant low-class westerners, who parochially prefer to view their native sources of information, have such a stereotyped view of our people.
The "white news media" that I've seen, namely the US media and the BBC, are mostly liberal. That is liberal as in anti-racism, particularly since the time of Dr Martin Luther King in the 1960's. The "white news media" takes great effort to remove all references of race from a report unless it is integral to the story. Likewise, they are extremely sensitive about removing all bias from reports. Although, since they are liberal, some of those views including anti-racism do slip through.
Further, when the news media and most people on Slashdot refer to "Indians" in this context, they are speaking about citizens from the country India. It very seldom has anything to do with race. This is just like when the media refers to Canadians, Americans, or Mexicans. All three countries contain mostly white people of European ancestry. (Although Canada and America also have significant minority populations.) But, when the media calls someone a Canadian, they are referring to his nationality, not his race. Very often Indians forget or don't realize that in these discussions and start making calls of racism.
As for your last comment regarding my "parochial" views... I do occasionally read the Times of India website. Some of the stories are interesting to me. However, most reports concerning local events or politics hold no interest to me, if I even know who they're talking about. You also must consider that unlike India, most countries do not post their news in English. I'm not about to learn another language just so I can catch up on the news. And finally, if I could, who has time to read all these foreign sources of news? Which ones would I pick? A paper in Moscow might be good. Maybe Taiwan. Maybe Hong Kong, Tokyo, Sydney, or Rio de Janeiro. There are literally thousands of newspapers I could read. I don't know about you, but I don't normally have the time for that.
It has been tried and it failed.
Unix was released under the BSD-license, and what happened? Various hardware companies took it, modified it to run on their hardware and closed it so that effectively it was gone.
Everybody knows that.
That's why all commercial companies always do joint Linux (GPL) projects and never BSD-projects. They don't trust each other and the GPL guarantees that one company cannot steal the fruits of the whole group.
Yeah, but the big corporation cannot control the source code that they used in their project. The original project released under the BSD license would still be available for developers to study and develop from.
But, hey, everybody has a different definition of freedom. The GPL license says "You may use our code as long as any derivative of our projects are also under the GPL." The BSD license practically says "Do whatever you want with it." The former places freedom into the hands of the source code, meaning that the source code would always be free, while the latter places freedom to the hands of the developers and users, meaning that they are free to do what they like with the code.
I personally like both licenses, but because of the provisions of the GPL, it is more popular with developers, meaning that Linux, for example, is much more popular in the open source community than *BSD is. But hey, even though Linux gets a lot of the spotlight, *BSD benefits from nearly everything that Linux and the GPL has to offer.
I was going to reply to him but you said it so much better than I could have....Thanks!
what?
Again you simply make my point. Only we programmers care. The ones who develop the applications that the users use....DUH! You must be some sort of real genius. Besides that you are sitting here argueing with me when I am telling you as a develpor what my reasons are.
what?
>War? What war? :)
It may not have started out as a war but Microsoft thinks it's a war. They are deploying The SCO Group and Get The Facts and various other weapons. Bill is angry. The Linux folks are just watching with a grin as microsoft wastes time and money trying to avoid the future. We are having fun.
Also, Bill declared linux as the biggest threat. Next, He removed linux from the list because he realized he was validating linux by putting it at number 1. He is using reverse psychology and propaganda to fight a cold war plus he is literally fighting it. It's not our fault.
The government which is strong enough to protect you from everything is strong enough to take everything from you.
Please don't read Times of India ... some call it Toilet Paper of India and others Tabloid of India. Try http://www.sulekha.com/hopper.asp ... you will get good collection of news in English
where did my sig go? where's my sig at?
I second that. As a +5 year linux user that does not program but creates occasional art for kde-look.org, I will not try BSD because I understand the difference in the license. Users do care because we want things to stay open.
The government which is strong enough to protect you from everything is strong enough to take everything from you.
Offtopic Note on CDAC.e rstory01.shtml
This once a pioneer organisation. Not anymore. They do some good work, but not enough. Here is in article on IMSc,Chennai building their on super computer. http://www.expresscomputeronline.com/20040816/cov
Tata Institute of Fundemental Research in Pune, decided to by CRAY machine. It is not funny that CDAC did not win these orders.
Coming to their contribution to common man. They have developed local langiage fonts, and DTP software. I have not seen anyone using these DTP software though. Probably CDAC is not very keen on pushing the products to mass markets.
Actually it's becuase if I develop something under the BSD license then any company can come and take what I have done and repackage it...and sell it without any credit to me what so ever.
Totally false.
Everybody including any BSD licensed code MUST give proper credits to the author, and include the license of that code (in this case, BSD) in any distribution of his work.
Please have a look at the BSD license before making a fool of yourself - provided you weren't deliberately spreading FUD, of course.
--
Being able to read *other people's* source code is a nice thing, not a 'fundamental freedom'.
Because releasing something under a BSD license will result in a big corporation taking your hard work, smack a logo on it and after having made it incompatible with your version, charge YOU for it.
It seems that many GNU/Linux people don't understand that if the big corporation can charge for a modified version of my software, it means that the modifications they made are *worth* that price.
Otherwise, everybody would just get the free, BSD-licensed copy.
So, they're *not* making money off my work, as you're implying: they can make money off *their own* modifications - seems fair enough to me.
What you call "the friggin license" is what many people consider a great example of liberalism and academic spirit.
--
Being able to read *other people's* source code is a nice thing, not a 'fundamental freedom'.
when you start learning, you got to ask this Question ,"How do I Install x on Y", nothing funny or be-littling there. The reason you see so many such questions is simply because so many people are trying it out. Do you know everything ? answer is NO.
And if you know how to install linux on PC today (even RH 5.2 would get you some credit) you are not earning any extra credit for it. You are not a hacker if you can do this and similarly alice/bob is not a no-hacker if they can not do it.
No
"It seems that many GNU/Linux people don't understand that if the big corporation can charge for a modified version of my software, it means that the modifications they made are *worth* that price."
The modifications themselves may not be more than an effort in making the source incompatible with their product. Thats hardly something i want to fork the dough for. Can you say Kerberos?
HTTP/1.1 400
"War? What war?"
You must be joking right? The OSS community dont wage a war but we recognize that someone doesnt want us around.
Linux poses an enourmous threat to Microsoft because it opens the market for other competitors. If you make an OS today and make it run Linux applications you have come more than halfway over the applications barrier to entry. Thats whats so scary about linux to Microsoft.
HTTP/1.1 400
The modifications themselves may not be more than an effort in making the source incompatible with their product. Thats hardly something i want to fork the dough for. Can you say Kerberos?
:)
I don't know about that case (could you explain or provide some links?). But what on earth would make me buy a piece of software, when it has *no* real enhancements compared to a freely available open source alternative?
My point is, the price I pay for a proprietary product that includes some BSD code is the price I pay for the *enhancements* to that code, because the BSD-licensed software is still a freely available alternative.
If I pay for a proprietary product that has *no* advantages over its free alternative, then I'm paying money for nothing - i.e. I'm an ass.
--
Being able to read *other people's* source code is a nice thing, not a 'fundamental freedom'.
Me: The "white news media" that I've seen, namely the US media and the BBC, are mostly liberal.
You: Ever watch Fox news? It might as well be run by the Ku-Klux-Klan!
That's why I said mostly. Fox is a well known conservative news network. Talk radio is also fairly conservative. However, that does not change the fact that the majority of the news sources are liberal.
When rednecks refer to "Indians" with their lips, the inflexions scream the N-Word and various other racial epithets... I've heard broadcasts from the Aryan Nations that are hijacked from regular network television here in Texas that clarify this point with nauseating accuracy.
I had the displeasure of attending college in Texas. I do understand what you're talking about and I certainly sympathize. Yes, racism is a large problem there, although most Texans would proclaim they are not racist. As a white person in Texas, I heard every derogatory term from my white friends including "nigger", "wetback", "chink", etc. I couldn't stand the hypocracy any more and ended up moving to Seattle. In the seven years since I've moved here, I haven't heard any of those terms uttered from any of my white friends - not once!
Rednecks are a small minority of the population outside of the US south. But, there are a lot of them still living in the south-eastern states. The south is an odd place where the US Civil War is still called the "War of Northern Aggression". Everywhere else in the US the Civil War is referred to as the time when slavery of our black population ended. In some ways, I still think the south would like to go back to that time. However, there are a lot of people, white people included, who violently disagree with them.
As for the twisting of the regular network television by the Aryan Nations, you have to remember that they purposefully take things out of context and warp them. That certainly doesn't make the original news source bad or non-liberal. That doesn't mean that all or even the majority of the Slashdotters talking about Indian citizens are conservative, racist, rednecks.
Given all that, I still stand by my argument that talk about Indians is not racism just like talk about Canadians or Americans is not racism. Nationality is separate from race.
I've seen doctored programs on National Geographic that describe Indians as cannibals, necrophiles, rapists, and generally less than human.
Where? This is all news to me. National Geographic is a well respected association. You said these where doctored. I'm assuming that they where edited by some racist with an agenda?
Also, witness the now-legendary "Tsunami Song" that targets at East-Asians as well as South-Asians and The 'Rat-Eaters' broadcast.
Sorry, I can't comment on that yet. I'll have to look at those when I get home.
The yanks make fun of our caste system, but the truth is that the racial and anti-semetic bigotry and hatred in this country is an order of magnitude more than in any other Asian Country (Surpassed only by Western Europe).
That is ridiculous. I've read a news reports of the tsunami-sticken area where members of India's Untouchable class are told to "go away" and they "will be fed only if there is extra food". People are literally dying because this bullshit, primitive caste system. I can't believe you would actually defend it. There they said there is "no deliberate caste discrimination". However, to me that sounds just like those white people from Texas who say they aren't racist and then say "nigger" and "wetback".
There is a large difference between our countries. When a natural disaster hits Texas or Florida, people don't die from lack of food because they're black or hispanic. If you remember, Florida was hit by hurricanes four times last year. Even though there are a number of racists in those areas, there are also a number of good people who aren't racist who made sure everyone got what they needed.
But the thing is that linux just DOES work most of the time. Most of the big distros do JUST work (at least in my case). The reason it doesn't work in the dorm is because of the way in which we have to connect to the Pitt network. Pitt chose a method of connecting that linux doesn't have native support for (802.1x authentication) However, there are programs out there available to connect with. Now the trouble comes when the Pitt network people refuse to help out and give the students the configuration needed to get ON the network. It's not even like it's a big secret, all the windows and mac users need the config to connect with, however the network people just don't seem to want to give it out to students. It's easier for them to just say, we don't support linux, give up.
--untwisted
simplistic mind of the white man
...herded people into concentration camps and butchered them like cattle, as your kindred folk have done to Jewish people countless times for no sensible reason other than pure unadulterated hatred (and not just during the Third Reich; then your ilk even went so far as to pervert OUR religious symbol and call it your own!
Excuse me? THAT is outright racism. THAT is exactly what I fought against in Texas against the white rednecks using terms like "nigger" and "spick" and "wetback".
So now your true colors come out. You can't win an argument fairly, so you resort to name calling. Bravo.
The caste system has been perverted and degraded to dogma by many upper-caste fanatics since the collapse of the Gupta Empire and the rise of the Shaivite/Vaishnavite movements in the 7th Century, but in it's purest and most fundamental form, it has been designed scientifically and methodically during the heyday of the Mauryan Emperors in order to keep people civilized and preserve the foundations of society, providing professional niches and a system of assigning a division of labor to negate the effects of class-bias (on the basis of wealth).
The idea that you can "scientifically" design a caste system is "pure horseshit". There was no scientific proof then, just like there's no scientific proof now, that one person is born better at a specific job than another. I need no further study. Scientists have already examined these topics exhaustively and concluded that the claims are preposterous. Therefore, caste systems in general are "horseshit".
Due to this caste system you condemn without thinking, our people have NEVER, in over 6000 years of history, EVER resorted to the utterly barbaric act of mass slavery (unlike the Europeans/Americans, who have been doing so to the African people since the time of the Romans)
Nice change of topic. Slavery was in our past and ergo India's caste system is ok? What kind of illogic is that?! The fact that you're still defending it is completely laughable.
Yes, America had slavery in it's past. Yes, the practise was completely dispicable. I make no excuses about it. And I certainly hope that none of my ancestors participated in it.
That said, the fact that America had slavery 150 years ago is no excuse for the fact that India follows a caste system in the present.
I find it utterly barbaric that members of lower caste classes starve to death when food is freely available. However, the fact that you can't kill the cows freely roaming the streets goes against religion - another primitive system that not even the west has completely kicked yet.
Excuse me? When has America done this? If you recall, it was America who established a home land in the middle east for the Jews out of compassion and remorse for a crimes of the Germans during WW2.
When the bubonic plague spread in Europe
The middle ages? You're bringing up stuff from what, 600-700 years ago? Let me clue you in: those primitives from our distant past are nothing like we are now. Caste discrimination is occuring in India now. I can't believe you have the balls to defend it.
How dare you imply that we are an inferior race
Exactly when did I say that? First off, I would not say that because I know it's not scientifically true. We are actually the same race, but maybe different "breeds". Second off, the whole idea that people from your country are inferior is "horseshit". Primitive maybe, inferior no. Again, refer to the scientific studies on the topic.
The crimes against humanity perpetrated by white christians are NOT the actions of a few extremists, but a broad social trend seen among millions of your kind that demonstrate the influence of Nordo-Celtic and Odinistic beliefs of master-race style supremacy in White thinking prevale
I cannot bring myself to like Caucasians, who are answerable for the crimes of their forebearers.
As an American, who would my forebearers be? We are a former English colony, but we've had significant immigration from countries all over the world. I am of such a mixed lineage that I cannot point to one country or continent and say all my ancestors came from there. I am part English, Irish, German, Danish, and Native American. Yet, those are just the ancestry I know because I haven't taken the time to memorize it all.
Secondly, if it was possible to pinpoint my forebearers, why should I be "responsible" for their actions and decisions? The idea is laughable. My only responsibility is to correct their mistakes and make sure they are not repeated.
You, on the other hand, are something far more dangerous and sinister, Sir. You, are a racial supremacist, worse than the rednecks you disown above.
I almost didn't respond to you because of this flamebait. Where is your proof? What did I write that makes me not only a racist, but a supremist?
You make the conclusion from my arguments that I am 100% white. My great-grandmother was a full-blooded Cherokee Indian - that's Indian as in Native American. That makes my grandfather 1/2 Cherokee, my father 1/4, and me 1/8. That also makes half my family part Cherokee as well.
Since the majority of whites choose not to breed outside their race, the process of inbreeding-induced Darwinian selection will render your people extinct in a few thousand years, and the rest of humanity will not have to worry about you.
News flash: most people do not "breed" outside their "race". This is not limited to white people.
Even so, I still take exception to this. I am a product of mixed ancestry between White and Native American. One of my best friends is half Italian and half Korean. His sister is engaged to a Filipino. Most black people you see in America aren't dark, "African" black because they had a white ancestor at some point.
If America does indeed die out, I believe it will be because the only people having more than 2-3 kids are the religious fanatics. These are the people who believe that sex is only for procreation and that condom usage or birth control is morally wrong. The 6-10 kids they have per generation will eventually drown out the less religious in our society.
Tell that to the average African-American or Hispanic person who can't get a well-paying job because your people refuse to enter him/her in the better schools despite his/her merits, then drive him/her into poverty.
Until the last few years, the US had an affirmative action system for 30 years. Under that system, non-white people were given preferential admission to colleges and universities. Even after being struck down as being blatantly unconstitutional, certain educational institutions still attempt to enforce the affirmative action rules.
Ask the average non-white US citizen if he or she has the same opportunities in life as a white man, and he or she will tell you of the crappy jobs they have to do and that they get paid significantly less than their Caucasian counterparts.
My grandfather is part Native American. Despite not getting a high school diploma, he was able to work at Ford on their assembly line. He even got up to foreman-level, supervising other workers - including white people.
My father ended up going into the Army and using the GI Bill to receive two masters degrees. He now makes about $230,000 a year working in medicine in El Paso.
One of my good friends came to Washington with his family from Mexico. He ended up earning a high school diploma here. I attended college with him, taking computer science classes. He's now being courted by a company in Connecticut that's interested in him for their Chief of Technology officer for $95,000 a year. That's the amount he said he w
While we're getting offtopic a tad, here is my rebuttal.
Yeah, I know... At least the likelihood of anyone other than us reading this are slim. I doubt any of our comments will be modded down.
Me: News flash: most people do not "breed" outside their "race". This is not limited to white people.
You: Not true, we have been interbreeding for thousands of years. The 2 races that predominantly comprise the Indian population have intermixed their blood so much that the distinctions are purely academic.
As I said before, most people do not "breed" outside their "race". I specifically did not say all. The fact of the matter is that most white people marry other white people, most Asians marry other Asians, most black people marry other black people, etc. That does not mean my statement is always true. You live in Texas, go to the mall sometime and look for yourself. Most people are there with someone of their own race. However, you will also notice the mixed couples.
Yes, there's "racial hatred" and "religiuos persecution" in the US, but that's perpetrated by a small minority (that just elected the Christian Reich to power and murdered ~100,000 women & childred, btw).
As much as I despise George Bush and his regime, it's actually an insult to the millions of people who died at the hands of the Nazis to label Bush the "Christian Reich". Bush has certainly done evil things that are simply beyond my reasoning such as the torture at Abi Grahib or the unlawful detaining of prisoners in Cuba. However, we are talking about foreign prisoners of war that are still alive. Nazi Germany went after it's own non-combatant citizens in a systematic purge of elements of it's own society - and then slaughtered them mercilessly. The comparison you make is hardly one-to-one.
The majority of us "Americans" are enlightened people that do not do such things and offer equal opportunities to everybody.
I would say that is true of most Americans.
No, we don't burn African Americans alive, or treat them as though they were less than human, then try to compensate for that by insulting their culture through "affirmative action" (claiming that they need "special treatment" and implying the same bigotry that they suffered from the slave owners) or have companies like Resistance Records that mass-produce anti-semetic multimedia games.
As I said, most Americans are enlightened. If all or even most white people went around burning the minorities, then that would be major news and we'd all know about it. Secondly, we wouldn't have any minorities left by now.
As for affirmative action, the racial minorities in America wanted that. Making it law was not an insult.
As for Resistance Records, I've never even heard of the company. I have no idea what they do or make. I've certainly never bought any of their goods or services. Nor have I otherwise aided them. Why am I to blame for their existance?
You Indians, on the other hand, are a primitive barbaric "people" (i.e subhuman race, but I don't mean that really) because you have a caste system.
Did you even read the article I submitted? An entire class of people were denied food in tsunami-stricken areas because of the caste they were born to. The caste system is a primitive system which results in barbarism.
The caste system in India is a primitive, barbaric system. The killing of baby girls in China due to an overwhelming national preference for males is also the result of a primitive, barbaric system. Do you think I am a racist for saying that as well? Or can we agree that the killing of baby girls in China is an atrocity that is the result of a primitive practise in the modern world?
I never said "subhuman", which is a deliberate semantic twisting of my words to paint me as a racist. My arguments that all people are the sa
You: The only differences between our bigotry problems and yours are manifest from the fact that your news media want to detract your countrymen from the flaws of your society, so they focus on the actions of a few uneducated people in the ruaral south of our country so that people like you would develop a false sense of subconscious racial superiority (while consciously believing themselves to be broad-minded and enlightened).
Me: That sentence is complete nonsense. Have you ever watched the local news in Texas? Every news cast goes over the flaws in US society. The local news here in Seattle is just as bad. I suggest you actually watch it a few times before making statements like that again.
You: I don't watch American news for the same reasons that you DO watch it. I don't have to time to factor out all the ignorance and bigotry present in CNN/NBC/FOX/whatever to get the real facts... Hence, I have done a detailed study of Caucasian racism, and the logistics of traffic in central Texas, but never bothered to watch the "news" programs about how to make the perfect bowl of chili, or the corruption of country music by the introduction of digital media, or the latest sexual conquest of Britney Spears, or any of that stuff.
So, I take it then that you have watched some local Texas news. Ever notice how many murders occur in your area? What about the number of robberies? Or the number of fatal accidents?
Ever notice that when a robbery occurs and they find a suspect, that they never mention the race of the suspect? In fact, you can rarely often tell the race of the suspect unless they air a video of the person. Also, have you ever noticed that the people reading the news aren't always white? Your statements about "ignorance and bigotry" and "Caucasian racism" are plain wrong. Obviously, you're not seeing any of this.
What do you think of your statement, "news media want to detract your countrymen from the flaws of your society" in the face of all those murders, robberies, and grisly accidents? How about that your statement is obviously wrong? The news media actually want to get ratings so they can sell more ads. So, they report on the problems in society because that's what people are interested in. People can't turn their eyes away from a car crash - in real life or on TV.
And when you stop murdering muslims, then we will listen to you and consider you to be men, instead of killers.
If you don't recall, radical Muslims attacked us first! There was the bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993. Then the bombing of three US embassies in Africa in 1998. There's the bombing of the USS Cole while it was refueling in Yemen in 2000. This was all before they flew big, freakin airplanes into our buildings on 9/11!
All of this was done out of hatred for our support of Israel - something you actually like. So, what exactly would you want us to do? Support Israel and piss off the Muslims so much that they fly planes into our buildings? Or not piss off the Muslims by removing support for Israel, thus dooming Israel to a quick and painful death? Which one?! Pick!
Your caste system is primitive and barbaric, but you can't actually defend it, so you end up attacking my culture instead. Yes, we have killed Muslims. And yes, some of them were innocent. And yes, we have done some brutal and nasty things in the process. However, we are dealing with those issues and bringing those criminals to justice. That is all part of war - which they started. None of that changes the fact that India's caste system is barbaric.
Why don't we stick to the actual thing we're arguing about, which is India's caste system!
YOU ELIMINATED THE FEUDAL SYSTEM?!
I suppose the billionaire's rich kid actually "earned" his position as CEO of daddy's company? Please!
And so just because nepotism exists in some cases, that makes the large companies of today anything like a feudal system? Hardly.
Somebody over 40 who just got booted from his company due to "downsizing" & offshoring (that's one point on which I am in partial agreement with the rednecks, that offshoring is ruining both our economies) can actually get an accredited degree that people won't laugh at?
One of my good friends is a 45-ish year old woman who is finishing up her CS degree. I went to school with plenty of other people in their 30s and 40s. While a CS degree may not be as beneficial as they were a few years ago, they're hardly anything to laugh at.
Anybody can get rich! Then why isn't everybody???
Look around you. Who says they aren't already? How many Americans in the US do you know who don't own a car? What percentage would you guess? What percentage of those are brand new? What percentage would you guess have a car in India? What percentage of those are brand new? Those cars aren't cheap. By most world standards, anyone able to afford a new car is rich.
Granted, that went offtopic of my main point. Everyday people can become CEOs. It's just a matter of luck, intelligence, hard work, and perseverance. A famous example is the founder of Wendy's, Dave Thomas, who set up his chain of restaurants without even a high school diploma.
Me: There is no working up to be King in a feudal system.
You: Nonsense! I did mention the Nanda dynasty before, I believe (c 350 bc).
Right... this was so commonplace that you have to bring up an example from 2355 years ago.
The same was true (in varying degrees) of Julius Caesar, Chengiz Khan, Napoleon Bonaparte, and, though I hate to admit it, even Adolf Hitler...
First off, Hitler was not king. The feudal system had already been eliminated in Germany by the time he came to power. However, that is beside the point.
The fact of the matter is that people taking the role of king who aren't born into it are so rare that you can only find extreme examples of it. Julius Caesar? He was around, what, just less than 2000 years ago? What about the line of kings in Britain that trace their history back to William the Conquerer?
Yes, it may happen occasionally, but in general, there is no working up to be King in a feudal system. However, people do work up to CEO in corporations quite often.
The caste system was SUPPOSED to be LOOSE set of rules. It was not MEANT to be a rigid orthodoxy. The problems we have wrt caste is the result of the DOGMA generated by the RIGIDITY of the caste system by some bad people, not by the SYSTEM itself. Hitler and George Bush were elected into power by the democratic process of election. Just because they are bad does not mean that the democratic process is bad, is it?
King George may have actually been a nice guy if you knew him. A large number of the kings of Europe may have been nice guys who did the right things for their countries. But, that doesn't mean the feudal system itself was good.
Like the caste system, the communist system sounded great in the beginning. Everyone owns everything jointly and we all just get along. But, it turned into an ugly, brutal system that just installed dictators into absolute power.
You can't judge a system by the way it was intended to be used. You judge it by the way it actually is used. Had we followed your advice with the Soviet Union, we'd still be asking them to be a little less totalitarian.
(Nice try comparing Hitler to Bush, but it really isn't a good comparison.)
To eliminate the PROBLEMS of the caste system, we have to work to simplify it to it's original form. It is too integrated into our way of life to be eliminated altogether. To suggest
Hell, If you want to go logic-chopping, I could argue that Democracy sounds great on paper. Everybody is equal and nobody can claim superiority over anybody else. But, it turned into an ugly, brutal system under the Greeks that just installed dictators like Selecus into power...
...or the French that just installed dictators like Napoleon into absolute power.
...but white supremacists like the KKK and the Aryan Nations, who are no different from the IRA or the al-Qaeda are permitted to practice on account of them being white.
At which point they are no longer a democracy, but an autocracy.
At which point they are no longer a democracy, but an autocracy.
Yes, democracies can put dictators in power. At which point, they no longer remain democracies. Does that make the democratic system evil? No. The individual ruler could have stopped at any point and allowed elections. The individual ruler is the evil person. Does that make democracy flawed? Potentially. A strong system of checks and balances must be put in place in order to prevent absolute rule.
Both societies were essentially the founders of modern democratic principles.
The ideas of the modern republic come from the Native Americans. The US borrowed their ideas during the founding of its republic, which came before France's revolution. The US is essentially the founder of modern democratic principles.
Me: Unless you are harboring terrorists, we have no interest in invading your country.
You: That's so inherently racist I can almost hear Luftwaffe planes in the background!
You are so full of shit that this is my last letter. My comment said NOTHING of race, but yet you called it racist. DO YOU EVEN UNDERSTAND THE MEANING OF THE WORD RACIST? No. You do not.
This is in contrast to your country, where even regular non-white muslims are beaten, brutalized and persecuted...
That did happen after 9/11, when the US was attacked brutally by a group of 20 Muslims. However, the police did investigate these attacks on Muslims and went after the criminals who perpetrated the crimes.
The Freedom of Speech is the first amendment to the US Constitution. The Freedom of Assembly is also in the first amendment to the US Constitution. Both of these groups, as despicable as they may be, still possess these rights along with everyone else in the US. As long as they conduct themselves within the law, they will continue to possess those rights.
If, after these atrocities, you have the audacity to claim that you are a superior culture to ours, then all I can say is that, unlike the words of E.R. Braithwaite, you can't educate the uneducable.
The right of a minority group, such as the KKK or the Aryan Nations, to speak freely is a fundamental right of a free society. They are almost universally despised, but to allow the government to silence their voices would lead any country down the path of autocracy. As much as I hate them and their message, I would defend to the death their right to say it - just as I would defend to the death your right to ridicule me.
Without free speech there is no democracy. Period.
If you want to use that as a pretext for murdering us, then bear in mind that WE are not Iraq.
Oh shut up. You are so full of yourself. There are no terrorists in your country sending freakin airplanes into our building. And besides, all our big companies who virtually run the Republican party all want to outsource their work to India. They have no interest in making your country more unstable than it already is.
Thus, your bureaus have no intelligence base in our country, nor does the People's Republic.
Right... The CIA is just going to ignore a country with a population of one billion people. Don't be so full of yourself.
Me: