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National PC Recycling Plan Proposed, Again
ThinSkin writes "Two U.S. Representatives have proposed a bill to resuscitate a national recycling program for electronic waste, following the successful launch of two state-run programs. The bill would create the National Computer Recycling Act, and if approved by Congress and signed into law, would tack on a $10 administrative fee to the sale price of computers and monitors to fund recycling efforts."
Where (and how) do they draw the line? Desktop computer > laptop > palmtop > wristwatch > implant ... maybe it would be better to charge by mass or percentage value (a laptop != a Cray).
I'm not criticising goal of this law, just curious how an arbitrary line is drawn. Arbitrarily is my guess.
My Texas city has a program like this (HEB Hurst Euless Bedford city district) and the stores charge a 30 dollar fee for recycle efforts. I don't see where the extra charge comes in though, as nobody seems to actually -RECYCLE- the computers they buy.
Where's this extra charge come in?
Just today I found a place in Indianapolis called Virtual PC Scavanger or something like that that is doing a hefty job of recycling and reusing old computers. The guy mentioned that they are about to get national sponsorship. Interesting timing.
From what I understand of physics, different elements and compounds have different weights per volume. So gold, being heavy, would be heavier than the same volume of hydrogen.
Archimede's principle dictates that an object will displace its weight in water, which leads to the conclusion that the heavier something is, the lower it will sink in relation to other material surrounding it.
Computers are made up of meltable parts. By melting the computers down, would it not be possible to skim off various useful elements and compounds at certain depths? This is how they separate kerosene jet fuel from high octane gasoline. It's all together in a vat, but sucked out from different depths.
Such a system could be set up in someone's back yard (given a large enough back yard). It's well known that some manufacturers use gold to conduct electricity, and silicon is resaleable. So is copper and a host of other really common elements in computers.
I'm surprised no one's done this yet.
What constitutes a "computer"? And do parts count?
That the government is going to pocket the $10 per system, while people continue to throw the computers in the trash because it's not worth their time/effort? I know that's not how it's supposed to work, but that's likely what is going to happen here. Leave it to representatives to find more ways to tax us.
BTW, I have two old monitors that I plan on paying to recycle pretty soon instead of irresponsibly throwing them in the dump. But I don't expect the government to tell me I need to pay a fee upfront to do this.
And really how toxic are the components that are in printed circuit boards anyway? Yes they use lead in the solder (for the next yew years), but there really isn't that much used all together. Most of the toxic stuff is the chemicals that go into production of these boards.
This should be a state-by-state decision and a state run program. We do not need the federal government adding one more program to the laundry list of programs that they already don't run efficiently. For interstate purchases just settle on a standard where the state of the seller or the state of the buyer collects the fee. Heck, set it up like a deposit system. You pay $10 when you buy the computer and get $5 back when you turn the computer in.
Smaller goverments run programs better - more efficiency, less impact due to corruption (on a smaller scale corruption is easier to detect), and more people are able to keep watch and keep the program in check. The insight for a program might start on the federal level, but it's insane having 1/2 the programs that we have running at the federal level.
Wouldn't it be more efficiant to come up with a nationwide recycling program for as many products as possible? Or at least extend this to all electronics such as TVs, Radios, etc.
It's $6 recycling fee to buy a computer starting this year in California. I wonder if the US fee will be added to this, or California will just follow US fee.
The only reason why i dont recycle much computer parts is that no one will take them without charging you for them. Even then, you dont know if it will get recycled or end up in a dump in china.
If i paid the recycling fee up front, and was then able to drop off the only stuff at a recycling center at no cost, i would do it much more often. Though without oversight the stuff could still end up in china.
I guess im still paying the cost reguardless, but I much better about paying when i purchase the item than when I get rid of it.
In America we are imprisoned by our fear of them.
While you're at it, put deposit on recycleable containers (juice, beer, milk) for god's sake.. it pains me to go to a party in washington (and other states), and see case after case of empty beer cans thrown in the garbage. I understand that unintelligent people can't figure out the difference between deposit and another tax, but thems the breaks. http://www.container-recycling.org/glassfact/decli ne.htm
Slower computers use significantly less power per cycle, so actually buying a slower computer would have a net effect of exactly the opposite of what you suggest. That of course, and (slightly) less computers would be purchased if they were all $10 more expensive.
While I agree its a tax, all that is needed is to require businesses to recycle their computers, and that will provide plenty of computers that actually get recycled.
Your signatures belong to me.
Also note:
(3) the term `central processing unit' includes a case and all of its contents, such as the primary printed circuit board and its components, additional printed circuit boards, one or more disc drives, a transformer, interior wire, and a power cord;
And:
(e) ADDITIONAL EXEMPTION- The Administrator may exempt from the requirement of a fee under this section any sale made under a contract or an arrangement that the Administrator determines is likely to result in the maximum reuse of significant components of the computer, monitor, or device, and the disposal of the remaining components--
(1) in an environmentally sound and responsible manner;
(2) without violation of any Federal or State law; and
(3) without reliance on funding from State or local governments,
when the computer, monitor, or device is no longer of use to the end-user.
(f) DESIGNATION OF ELECTRONIC DEVICES- The Administrator may designate additional electronic devices to which the fee under subsection (a) shall apply if those electronic devices--
(1) contain a significant amount of material that, when disposed of, would be hazardous waste; and
(2) include one or more liquid crystal displays, cathode ray tubes, or circuit boards.
So, basically right now, only full systems seem to be called "a computer" (i.e. your standard Dell/HP/Gateway, etc., pizza box/tower). But they reserve the right for parts to later be specified, basically anything with a circuit board or LCD.
We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"
Gas tax, property tax, federal income tax, state income tax, social security tax, sales tax, tarrifs on goods we purchase, capital gains tax, federal telephone fees, vehicle registration (buy a nice car and now I can't even afford the plates on it) and the thousand other taxes that I cannot afford to pay.
I don't pay enough taxes. 50% of my income just isn't enough. Add it up folks. The government has $150 hammers to buy. Don't try and pawn the blame off on one political party, either. They're both guilty.
Most people have no clue what they're paying in taxes. The pump thier gas and wonder why it's so expensive but don't even see the 50 cent a gallon tax. They pay their mortgage and don't see the thousands of dollars they're paying in property tax because it's rolled into the payment. Their taxes are deducted right out of thier paycheck. I'm self employed, wait until you have to write out all these checks, it works. Are they going to tax motherboards when I build computers? This will be really good for the struggling IT economy.
Okay, I'll bite. Did you read the article, or are you just knee-jerking?
You've listed one or two problems with recycling, but haven't identified related problems with NOT recycling, nor have you considered of the appropriate scenarios which approach would have the most beneficial impact on the environment and economy. Sure, recycling uses extra power (hence requiring more oil/coal/gas) and will also release fumes into the air (from the power and the recycling process itself).
However, not recycling will require more mining and processing to produce more raw materials for new electronic components. Not recycling will result in computers and electronics taking up landfill space. Not recycling will add pollutants to the local ecosystems (eg lead from all solder points and reflow work, PCB's from many plastics, etc).
Which of these two scenarios is worse I cannot say, but it's not nearly as cut-and-dry as you try to make it.
Regarding reusing computers, you could still donate/sell your computer to needy people or willing consumers, just as you can do now. It's the dumping of your mobo and other cards into the trash that they're trying to reduce.
Plus, you say one can "always" find a second-hand market. What about when they're through with the product, maybe a third-hand market. But eventually nobody will want to use your screaming 10 MHz 386 box anymore. Who will recycle it then?
What exactly is the point of this new legislation if not a new way to add another hidden tax?
Well, from the article : "According to the bill, the fees would be used to fund government grants to agencies or individuals willing to recycle the used computers. A maximum of ten percent of the fees can be used for administrative costs, the bill says. The organizations have the right to recycle and/or resell the used PCs, which must be performed in accordance with [sic] in accordance with environmental health laws."
So there you have it, even you (assuming you're eligible under the program) would be able to apply for a government grant, funded by this tax, to establish reselling the used PC's. So if you're really so interested in ensuring used PC's go to second-hand markets then you should be praising this bill, not complaining about it.
make world, not war
First of all, in many places (such as here in Oregon where I live), we have to pay a deposit to buy soda in cans or bottles. The deposit is in addition to the price of the can/bottle of soda. If you recycle, you often get this as a "refund". Some people game the system by buying cans/bottles in one locale and taking them to another where the deposit is higher (as in the Seinfeld episode where Kramer and Numan try to do this in a mail truck.)
Second, there are pretty good reasons why your Pentium 1 motherboard cannot be a Pentium 5 motherboard that have nothing to do with the electrical engineer who designed it "not being creative enough" or "the government trying to scam you". The fact is that you would not be happy if the P5 were on the P1 mother board because you would not gain much extra speed from having the P5 on there as the bus would be far too slow. The bus speed is only one of many similar problems you would have with such a scheme.
Third, electronics companies are in fact moving to more environmentally friendly manufacturing techniques. At my company, we are currently making a transition between normal type electronics and moving to "lead free" electronics for our circuit boards. One of the electrical engineers on my team was pissed recently when he had to redesign a circuit board to be lead free for this initiative. (He wasn't pissed because of the redesign. He was pissed because he originally started to design it as lead free and was told by his boss to design it "leaded" and then after doing all the work over again to create the regular design, had to re-do it again to make it lead free.)
BTW. Lead free electronics manufacturing requires higher temperatures for the board to be "baked" because it takes more heat to melt lead free solder. Also, I learned recently (I'm a software guy and knew nothing about hardware before I came to this particular company) that newer type circuit boards typically can have circuits at several levels within the board and have parts on both sides of the board. Its pretty interesting.
Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
Joking aside, this sounds simple, but enforcing this would be more trouble than most people anticipate.
* $10 a machine is arbitrary. For PC it is so little money that it won't affect behavior. For smaller stuff (like a cellphone or GameBoy) it is a larger portion of the price, and will encourage people to attempt to dodge the fee. (like buying overseas) This is countrproductive, since it's the PC's are much larger and heavier, and are the obviously the targets of this.
* Not just WHAT is a computer, but WHEN is it a computer? If I buy a barebones system (motherboard and case), is that going to incur the $10? What about when I add a harddrive and memory? CD player? Speakers? What about a monitor? If I build one at home, do I have to fill out a form and tell the gov't I've created one, and mail them $10? What about small-time mom-and-pop computer companies? New paperwork for them too?
* $10 a person isn't much, but it adds up for schools buying in bulk, particularly if every PC, monitor, printer and router incurs a seperate $10 fee. Think of the children!
* If I take two broken computers and RECYCLE some of the parts by building one decent computer, how do I get my $10 back? What if I sell this refurbished system? Do I need to add YET ANOTHER $10 onto the price? What forms will I need to fill out to make sure I don't become a criminal when I do this?
* As with all taxes: collecting it, keeping track of who has paid, tracking down tax evaders, and prosecuting them costs a lot of money. Chump change taxes like this probably cost more than they bring in if you bother to enforce them. What is wrong with all of the hundreds of little nickle-and-dime piranna taxes we already have? Can't you just raise one of them and save us the paperwork?
* "... tack on a $10 administrative fee to the sale price of computers and monitors to fund recycling efforts" Are you kidding me? Fund recycling efforts? This money will go into the big cannibal pot of cash (like all taxes do), and be spent the same way all the rest of the money is spent, so please don't pretend I'm helping to save the world by giving you $10.
* Why are we worrying about computers in landfills? Have you SEEN how big and heavy cars are?
* Dear lawmakers: Not all problems can be solved via the levying of taxes. I know that when you're a hammer, every problem looks like a nail, but don't you have anything better to do?
--This sig is in beta. Please let us know abut any errors you find.
Here's how it works in Japan, where virtually everyone has a computer, and land dumps are not a viable option.
First of all, the gov't does NOT pocket $10. Unlike automobiles (which have had an approx. $250 recycle tax tacked onto all new vehicle sales as of this year I believe), computers are still sold at the same cost as before. However, the city will not accept them as garbage. No one (legally) will. You need to call the manufacturer, which has a recycling fee list for each device. On receipt of the call, they'll give you a tracking number, and you pay your fees. Usually about $15 for a computer, $15 for a monitor, and so on so forth. In return, the post office will deliver a special computer transportation box, which you pack your computer in. It is then shipped off to the manufacturer, which is legally required to recycle. Recycle rates are actually pretty impressive.
This was actually an extension to the household appliances recycle laws that passed a few years ago. TVs, air conditioners, washing machines, dryers and refrigerators all need to be sent back to the manufacturer for recycling. Unlike computers, however, your local electrical appliance shops are required to do the pickup. (They'll come to your house with a truck.)
In both computer and appliances, if the manufacturer is bankrupt, or you built it yourself in the first place, you call the local municipal gov't which will pick it up (same rough cost) and recycle it for you.
Some people probably think this will just lead to people taking apart their junk computers, amd trashing them piece by piece to avoid the recycle cost. This doesn't quite work that well though. The case will likely exceed standard garbage size limits (yes, we have such a thing), so you'll still need to pay something like $5 to $15 to have the city dispose your case. That considered, there's not much of a savings associated, and certainly not a clean conscience. Sure, you could dump it in the river, but this doesn't seem to be a big issue with normal citizens, only organized illegal garbage collecting companies which do it large scale.
All in all, it works quite well. Truth is, now that the laws are in place, with very easy to understand requirements for the manufacturer to take back what they sold, it is much much easier to get things recycled, and the cost is not that big of a deal. And I don't really need to worry about the gov't pocketing the cost.
I read that too: the term `central processing unit' includes a case and all of its contents
So, how would this apply to people who build their own computers? If I buy by the part, would I only be taxed on the monitor?
Give a man fire, and you warm him for the night. Set a man on fire, and you warm him for the rest of his life.
In Switzerland, the association SWICO is charged by the state to deal with electronics recycling of all kinds. When you buy an electronic device (even chainsaws count), a recycling fee is added to the price. Then, when the thing dies, you can take it back to any store in the country that carries similar stock. In reality though, even stores that don't sell any computers or monitors will take them back -- the company that picks up and recycles the stuff is the same anyway. The stores are required by law to cooperate and can't weasel out if you bring them a 15 year old 20" monitor and they only sell LED flashflight keyrings.
The fees are very moderate, I never paid more than 7 francs (5 EUR) for a computer, perhaps 15 francs for a rather big dishwasher. With computing equipment, the fee is calculated by the price of the item. Household machinery goes by weight.
Many companies, especially IT, still try to make a very small amount of money by selling off their inventory once it gets replaced, so it's not like we all just dump trucks full of laptops at Mom & Dad's Electric Toothbrush Wonderland. But once the thing refuses to boot, it's good to know I can take it back to any store.
This even covers items sold before 1994 (when recycling became The Law). We've had a few years of experience with this system, and I don't know of anyone who's unhappy with it so far. So: yay for mandatory electronics recycling.
Freecycling is a great way to get rid of an old computer that you don't want. Check out http://www.freecycle.org/ for a group in your area.
I'd imagine that most of the local computer stores closed due to lack of business? I know small business owners that buy approximately 10 computers every year. They'd simply drive outside city limits to save $300. It's a no-brainer.
I don't see how this law is effective.
-- No sig for you!
probably it ends up like this
(And for a larger perspective I came up with while in a obviously fevered state, check out my horrible hyperlink haiku)
Someone had to do it.
The Silcon Valley Toxics Coalition http://www.svtc.org/has some very interesting links to articles related to computer and enviroment. I am not worried about the space issue of throwing away the computers, I am worried about the issue of putting all the lead (and other materials) into our eviroment. The World needs to realize just how costly computers are going to be to our eviroment in both creation and disposal. The $10 per computer will not be enough to even think about covering the true cost of getting any computer disposed of safely. I can't say live without computers, but people need to think about buying less of them, and using them longer. Hopefully Linux will have a role in this.
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