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Guilty Plea in AOL Engineer's Address Theft Case

ScentCone writes "Jason Smathers, a former AOL software engineer has pleaded guilty in his theft of 92 million in-house account screen names. He'll be paying $200-400k, and serving a year or two of federal time. Smathers used another employee's account to steal the data, and sold it to a Vegas-based online casino operator. Interestingly, one of the charges was 'interstate transportation of stolen property.'"

135 of 219 comments (clear)

  1. That's federal pound me in the ass prison. by glrotate · · Score: 2, Funny

    Doesn't seem like such a good idea now does it?

    1. Re:That's federal pound me in the ass prison. by Zutfen · · Score: 1

      So... there's no conjugal visits?

      Awww crap!

      --
      I'm too lazy to enter a sig. Hey wait a second! You tricked me!
    2. Re:That's federal pound me in the ass prison. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Doesn't it seem wrong that extra-judicial rape in our prison system is not only tolerated, but sort of cheered on?

      Why don't we just go to a system of corporeal punishment, like in Singapore? At least there, the amount of physical punishment you take bears some relationship to the crime you've committed, whereas in our system you're punished according to your physical strength, ability to join a gang, etc. that have nothing to with the severity of the crime you've committed.

      If you think prison rape is just fine, then you should stop kidding yourself and start advocating an official corporeal punishment system. There are not disadvantages to the system we currently have. It's much fairer. If you find this argument absurd and/or don't want to repeal the 8th amendment, then you should not sit idly by and let this absurdity rage on unabated.

    3. Re:That's federal pound me in the ass prison. by Moofie · · Score: 1

      Yeah, because torturing people is just like sending email.

      Whahuh?

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    4. Re:That's federal pound me in the ass prison. by vsprintf · · Score: 1, Insightful

      For people who work for AOL? You betcha.

      No. That's not even appropriate. For people like Kenneth Lay, who preached ethics while robbing little old ladies and millions of others, okay. But he won't ever wind up in prison, and if he did, no Bubba would want him.

    5. Re:That's federal pound me in the ass prison. by Foobar+of+Borg · · Score: 1
      I think you're certainly right here and some of the responders have missed the point. Yes, prison is about punishment, but the punishment is to be locked up and not free for a certain term. I don't recall any judge sentencing anyone to be pounded in the butt for a specific term.

      What if you were to be imprisoned for a relatively minor offence for a period of about 3 months? Does that mean it is okay for you be anally raped for the whole time and, most likely, contract HIV and die a slow, horrible, lingering death? No wonder most of the world thinks Americans are a bunch of savages.

    6. Re:That's federal pound me in the ass prison. by vsprintf · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Actually, the 1 to 2 year sentence was way too light, IMO. Something more along the line of a public (televised) hanging or draw-and-quartering (or perhaps more toward your tastes, impalement.)

      While I really dislike spam, since people who murder children (no it's not about abortion) often get no prison time, it really seems a little severe. Is spamming 100 million people worse than murdering one child? Is that the Slashdot ethos?

  2. Interstate? by Bongoots · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If he was charged with 'interstate transportation of stolen property', does that mean that he printed out all 92 million screen names and took them in his car across state borders?

    1. Re:Interstate? by __aahsof7392 · · Score: 1

      Yeah. Probably on a CD in his briefcase. I doubt he emailed the screennames and the casino operator payed him via PayPal.

    2. Re:Interstate? by file+cabinet · · Score: 1

      or put them on a hard drive.
      http://www.lectlaw.com/def/i061.htm

    3. Re:Interstate? by shark72 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "If he was charged with 'interstate transportation of stolen property', does that mean that he printed out all 92 million screen names and took them in his car across state borders?"

      Doubtful. A sometimes common perception among Slashdotters is that the law is immutable and easily defeated by technology, but a look at how the law has changed over the past several hundred years shows that the law does eventually catch up. It's my understanding that interstate transport can now include e-mail as well as the historic methods of postal mail and, as you've mentioned, cars. And, of course, you probably already knew that that database is AOL's property whether it's printed or not.

      Other examples: it took several years after the advent of motion pictures before copyright law caught up with them. There were a few years in which films weren't copyrightable, but the law did catch up. When the first cars started being built, there were no vehicle codes (or if there were, they covered things like carriages), but the vehicle codes eventually caught up. And, for most of our history of copyright law, it was basically legal to redistribute copyrighted material without compensation; the law didn't need to cover this because it was simply impractical to print a thousand books and give them away for free. When technology began allowing somebody to put a file on an FTP site and allow widespread duplication, copyright law finally caught up several years later, in the form of the NET act.

      --
      Sitting in my day care, the art is decopainted.
    4. Re:Interstate? by homer_ca · · Score: 1

      "that database is AOL's property whether it's printed"

      A database isn't tangible property. Shouldn't this be prosecuted instead as theft of trade secrets?

    5. Re:Interstate? by databyss · · Score: 1

      It's not tangible? You can't touch the hard drives? A database of this size will undoubtably have it's own physical server. He transferred the property from one medium to another and moved it across state lines.

      For example, say there was a video of you having sex with your partner. I copied this video onto my computer and burned it to a cd. Is this video tangible? Yes, you can even see it, much like the screen names.

      Secondly, a screen name isn't a trade secret. Having millions of them doesn't make it any more a trade secret.

      --
      Hmmm witty sig or funny sig? Maybe elitest techy sig!
    6. Re:Interstate? by homer_ca · · Score: 1

      "For example, say there was a video of you having sex with your partner. I copied this video onto my computer and burned it to a cd. Is this video tangible?"

      It's a tangible copy of a video on your CD. The blank media is your property. You don't have the right to copy the video.

      He didn't take the database servers themselves. That would be stolen property. Assuming he copied the database to his own CD-R, there was no property removed from the premises of AOL. This falls under the umbrella of intellectual property. In aggregate, a list of millions of customers' info is a trade secret. It's not patented and not copyrighted (although companies have lobbied before to copyright databases).

  3. Deserved it by __aahsof7392 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Do the crime, pay the time.

    I'm not sure how he's going to pay $200k+ though.

    1. Re:Deserved it by ryanjensen · · Score: 5, Funny

      Don't worry, they have installment plans for that. Kinda like winning the Publisher's Clearing House sweepstakes, but in reverse.

    2. Re:Deserved it by __aahsof7392 · · Score: 1

      Isn't there a law stating if the person cannot afford the fine, the fine has to be lowered or dropped? For instance how could you fine a homeless person $100 for trespassing?

    3. Re:Deserved it by Macadamizer · · Score: 1

      No. But what they do if they levy a fine against someone is that they don't let them get off of probation (or off parole if they are coming out of prison) until the debt is paid off.

      --

      "That's not even wrong..." -- Wolfgang Pauli
    4. Re:Deserved it by Duhavid · · Score: 1

      It's about half what he got for selling the list in the first place.

      The preceeding was a sarcastic comment. I do not actually know what he got for the list. Half a nice day.

      --
      emt 377 emt 4
    5. Re:Deserved it by tehshen · · Score: 1

      He got $28 000, which is hardly half.

      --
      Guy asked me for a quarter for a cup of coffee. So I bit him.
    6. Re:Deserved it by Xero · · Score: 1

      This is untrue. It is possible to be off of probation and to still owe fines. Here in Washington State, there has been recent discussion about giving convicted felons who are off of probation but still owe fines the right to vote. Currently if you are finished with your probation, you need to pay off your fines to regain the right.

    7. Re:Deserved it by Macadamizer · · Score: 1

      "This is untrue. "

      I guess I should have been more clear. What I said is true, just not in every state.

      Clearly, WA is not one of the states where it is true.

      --

      "That's not even wrong..." -- Wolfgang Pauli
    8. Re:Deserved it by teksno · · Score: 1

      hell sell the address's to spammers.......even at $.005 hell still make a hefty profit!!!!!!!!!

  4. You've got jail! by ShatteredDream · · Score: 5, Funny

    Sorry, couldn't help it...

    1. Re:You've got jail! by j1bb3rj4bb3r · · Score: 1

      With SlidingBarsClank.wav as your message beep...

      --
      *yawn*
  5. Office Space currupts by Prophetic_Truth · · Score: 1

    Stop the IT crime! Burn all copies of "Office Space"!

    --
    time is a perception of a being's consciousness
    time is your 6th sense, the wierd ones are 7+
  6. What? by VeryApt · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Textual representations of AOL customenrs email addresses are considered AOL's property? As much as I hate spammers, that is insane.

    1. Re:What? by grahamsz · · Score: 1

      There was a case in the UK where a competitor to british telecom bought and typed names and phone numbers from the phone book.

      I'm pretty sure that was deamed legal and that which BT could copyright their phone books, the information therein was (in general) in the public domain.

      I dont doubt he abused his employment contract, but this seems like a very tenuous description of stolen property.

    2. Re:What? by Macadamizer · · Score: 1

      "Also, in the US, it's been determined that a "database" is copyrightable, which makes it a form of property, even if it's developed 1:1 from public domain data."

      Are you sure about that? I am not aware of any case that makes a general database of public domain data copyrightable. In fact, the leading case in this area is Feist v. Rural Telephone, where one company got the other guy's phone book, copied all of the info, and published their own phonebook, and the Supremes held it to be not copyright infringement, and that the first guy did not have a property right in the collection of public domain data.

      Now, if there is some sort of selection of who gets in the database that is "creative" and more than just some sort of mathematical algorithm or random chance, then the list of "what" is in the database might be protectable under copyright, but the public domain information still would not be, as you alluded to in your post.

      --

      "That's not even wrong..." -- Wolfgang Pauli
  7. 28K for that kind of list? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny
    Smathers told the judge that he accepted $28,000 from someone who wanted to pitch an offshore gambling site to AOL customers

    That guy should have asked for much more than that... like if a casino was short on cash! Omni

  8. I'd like to know by www.sorehands.com · · Score: 4, Interesting
    I'd like to know which gambling sites that this was used to promote. I'd love to file lawsuits against some of these spamming, gambling, sites.


    Maybe, they'd learn that when spamming, the sysadmin wins.

    1. Re:I'd like to know by kaustik · · Score: 1

      Maybe, they'd learn that when spamming, the sysadmin wins.

      Really? I sure don't feel that way watching my mail queues and trying to convince users that the spam filter is not out to get them...

  9. Obvious by FiReaNGeL · · Score: 1, Insightful

    He pleaded guilty cause he was.

    Can we really say anything more than 'well deserved'?

    Do we know for how much he sold the stolen list? I supe hope for him its more than 400k... but I doubt it!

    1. Re:Obvious by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 4, Informative
      Do we know for how much he sold the stolen list?

      We who RTFA do.
      $28,000

    2. Re:Obvious by pHatidic · · Score: 1
      Can we really say anything more than 'well deserved'?


      I hope you remember you said that when the government locks you up for violating interstate commerce laws because you downloaded some warez from the next state over. Copying and selling the information in a private database is bad, but there is no way that it is worth setting a new and dangerous legal precedent just to get this asshole a couple extra months in jail.

    3. Re:Obvious by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 1
      violating interstate commerce laws because you downloaded some warez from the next state over.

      Downloading is one thing. Downloading and selling is quite another.

    4. Re:Obvious by shark72 · · Score: 1

      "Copying and selling the information in a private database is bad, but there is no way that it is worth setting a new and dangerous legal precedent just to get this asshole a couple extra months in jail."

      Can you explain what the precedent is here? Over the past decade I've seen dozens of similar cases involving confidential and proprietary information. Before it was e-mail lists, it was snail mail lists. Typically the information is sold to, or taken to, a competitor. Here, it was sold to a spammer. Are you referring to the CAN-SPAM wrinkle?

      --
      Sitting in my day care, the art is decopainted.
    5. Re:Obvious by Moofie · · Score: 1

      Keep thinking that.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    6. Re:Obvious by PedanticSpellingTrol · · Score: 1

      Actually, ever since FDR bitchslapped the supreme court, the commerce clause has been steadily re-interpreted to where it provides the justification for a huge number of things the federal government does that it really doesn't have the authority to. The watershed is case was 1942's Wickard v. Filburn, where the court upheld fines on a farmer who grew more wheat than his quota allowed, even though he only used it to feed animals on his own farm, because if he had not grown the wheat himself he would have had to buy it, possibly from another state.

  10. I'm sorry, but this is crap... by j1bb3rj4bb3r · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The guy who gives the email addresses to the spammers is forced to pay restitution costs to AOL for the amount they spent on dealing with email that the spammer's sent. This is bullshit. If anyone should have to pay, it is the spammers. The guy can go to jail for theft of property (if you consider email lists property... which the government seems to... but this is another issue), but he didn't directly cost AOL any money. This is a crap example of a big company getting money from this little guy because getting the money from the spammers is nigh impossible. He plead guilty, so I think that keeps him from being able to appeal.

    --
    *yawn*
    1. Re:I'm sorry, but this is crap... by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 4, Informative
      This is a crap example of a big company getting money from this little guy because getting the money from the spammers is nigh impossible.

      I know it's a chore to actually read the article, but:
      "Smathers told the judge that he accepted $28,000 from someone who wanted to pitch an offshore gambling site to AOL customers, knowing that the list of screen names might make its way to others who would send e-mail solicitations."

      It's not like he is an innocent party in this.

      "Smathers allegedly sold the list to Sean Dunaway, of Las Vegas, who used it to send unwanted gambling advertisements to subscribers of AOL, the world's largest Internet provider. Charges are pending against Dunaway."

      Say what you want about AOL, but they do appear to be going after these clowns.

    2. Re:I'm sorry, but this is crap... by RockClimb · · Score: 1

      The guy who gives the email addresses to the spammers is forced to pay restitution costs to AOL for the amount they spent on dealing with email that the spammer's sent. This is bullshit. If anyone should have to pay, it is the spammers.

      WTF? Smathers knew exactly what was going to be done with this list. I'll agree that the spammers should pay, and from TFA...
      "Smathers allegedly sold the list to Sean Dunaway, of Las Vegas, who used it to send unwanted gambling advertisements to subscribers of AOL, the world's largest Internet provider. Charges are pending against Dunaway."

      Smathers should pay and pay dearly, after all he provided the list to the spammer in the first place.

      ...but he didn't directly cost AOL any money.

      Again, WTF? Do you think that AOL gets bandwidth for FREE? As their bandwidth usage goes up from spam they must buy MORE bandwidth to keep things flowing smoothly and to keep their customers happy. Again from TFA....
      " In December, the judge said he had dropped his own AOL membership because he received too much spam.

      To me, that looks like 2 places that directly cost the company.

  11. Thats it?! by kevlar · · Score: 1

    He'll be paying $200-400k, and serving a year or two of federal time.

    This guy has 'Capital Punishment' written all over him.... he got off lite!!

  12. Later in the prison showers... by leathered · · Score: 3, Funny

    'You've got male!'

    --
    For all intensive porpoises your a bunch of rediculous loosers
    1. Re:Later in the prison showers... by dep01 · · Score: 1

      The other inmates will scream, "You've got tail!"

      --
      "hey, could you pass me a paper towel? er.. I mean... DEPLOY ABSORBTION PANEL!"
  13. mandatory restitution? by brian.glanz · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Smathers is only paying "the amount the government estimates AOL spent as a result of the e-mails," which is that $200,000 to $400,000. Is our government unable to represent those who suffered significantly more harm than AOL, the people?

    Sufferers may primarily be AOLamers and maybe all of us here will laugh that off to some extent, but consider "The stolen list of 92 million AOL addresses included multiple addresses used by each of AOL's estimated 30 million customers. It is believed to be still circulating among spammers." AOLamers or not, these are our grandparents and grade school teachers; training-wheeled users who if anything, need more protection than we do.

    This penalty does them no good, whatsover. TFA makes it clear that a signficant number of them are still getting ruined by the crime, as_we_type. IANAL; can someone add whether "the people" can expect to be served a piece of Smathers?

    If this is it, it sure as hell isn't what I'd call "restitution." Anyone want to wager that we also get nothing out of Sean Dunaway, the guy to whom Smathers sold?

    BG

    1. Re:mandatory restitution? by mccrew · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Smathers is only paying "the amount the government estimates AOL spent as a result of the e-mails," which is that $200,000 to $400,000. Is our government unable to represent those who suffered significantly more harm than AOL, the people?

      2 quick points

      1. Yes, the regular folks who recieve spam were harmed, but it is pretty hard to come up with some number to quantify. Another slashdotter hit the nail on the head in the other story today about how spam costs $22 billion per year.

      2. The restitution does seem rather low - we all would have a self-satisfied chuckle if it had been a huge unreachable range like $200M to $400M. But it is low enough that there is a realistic chance he will actually have to pay off the whole thing off, perhaps have his wages garnished for the rest of his life. That does sound like serious consequences.
      --
      Hey, Windows users, there is no such thing as "forward" slash, there is only slash and backslash.
    2. Re:mandatory restitution? by anticypher · · Score: 1

      "the people"

      You seem to be making a common mistake, anthropomorphizing AOLers.

      At least you put the term in quotes, to indicate you are using a non-traditional or alternate meaning.

      the AC

      --
      Hemos is like...sci-fi fans;he thinks technology is cool, but he hasn't bothered to understand the science it's based on
  14. Bad, bad lawyer! by GeneralEmergency · · Score: 2, Informative


    'transportation of stolen property'



    More like 'transportation of copied property'.



    No such law.



    --
    "A microprocessor... is a terrible thing to waste." --
    GeneralEmergency
    1. Re:Bad, bad lawyer! by bigbadunix · · Score: 1


      I'm sure the terms of use of AOL's corporate networks indicate that all information contained on their computer systems are property of AOL.

      This, then, would mean that whether he had an electronic file, had written down each address, a hardcopy listing, whatever...it was property of AOL. He stole that information.

      But that's just my take on it, and i'm dumb.

      Life is simple, people make it complicated

      --

      The older I get, the less I like everyone else.
    2. Re:Bad, bad lawyer! by ari_j · · Score: 1

      You're probably more correct than the parent was.

    3. Re:Bad, bad lawyer! by zxnos · · Score: 1
      to steal is to take something without right or permission. property is something that is tangible or intangible that someone has a legal title to. so yes, he stole that property. you may believe that information cannot be property, but the current law doesnt agree with you. until the law can be changed everyone needs to follow the law or else those fighting to change it have no credibility because they are seen by others (those in power) as thieves.

      by saying that information cannot be property you are opening pandoras box.

      --
      always mosh clockwise
    4. Re:Bad, bad lawyer! by renehollan · · Score: 1
      He violated copyright (by making a copy of copyright information -- AOL certainly has a right to what is called an "aggregation copyright" on the data) and propably made unauthorized use of computer systems to do so.

      I doubt he stole anything, or transported stolen property across state lines.

      Stealing would have entailed taking the data from a source within AOL and wiping that source clean.

      --
      You could've hired me.
    5. Re:Bad, bad lawyer! by shark72 · · Score: 1

      "I doubt he stole anything, or transported stolen property across state lines."

      According to the letter of the law, he did. The transport likely happened when he e-mailed (or snail mailed) the file to Nevada.

      "Stealing would have entailed taking the data from a source within AOL and wiping that source clean."

      I think you're mixing the colloquial and the legal definitions here. The legal world has a different, and often broader, definition of the words "theft," "stolen" and the like. For example, "identity theft" and "theft of service" do not typically refer to the taking of a unique piece of physical property, as you or I might define the word "theft."

      --
      Sitting in my day care, the art is decopainted.
    6. Re:Bad, bad lawyer! by zxnos · · Score: 1

      i dont equate stealing with depriving someone of property only. if someone takes a design of mine or anything i have created and uses it with out permission or claims it as theirs, i still call that theft. even though i wasnt deprived of anything physically. while perhaps offtopic, in general i think that if someone is offering something for a price you should respect that and pay if you want it.

      --
      always mosh clockwise
    7. Re:Bad, bad lawyer! by Jim_Callahan · · Score: 1

      Information can be property. Aka anything copyrighted, or electronic funds. If i transfer all the money in your bank account to mine, it's still considered theft, despite the fact that all i did was alter some numbers, which is technically just vandalism. I'm assuming this is something similar.

      --
      ...it's really a sad day for America when we require a goddamn ACT OF CONGRESS to make our DVD players work properly. ~
  15. XP PR0, AD0BE, 0FFICE 2OO3 & ALL FOR INSTANT D by temojen · · Score: 1

    You forgot to include the text/html part:

    ----35977.08538_20228509
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

    fibration crankshaft spatial
    perfecter conjure
    downey happenstance aromatic charley gubernatorial

    ----35977.08538_20228509
    Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

    Actual spam message

    ----35977.08538_20228509--

  16. Re:For Chrissake, Slashdot by Anita+Coney · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It may be nothing to you, but when 80% of all email is spam, and when legitimate emails are filtered out, and when email becomes essentially useless, nearly everyone else disagrees.

    --
    If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
  17. Prison is a place of punishment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful
    A prison is supposed to be a place of punishment.

    Quite frankly, I don't care what goes on in there as long as people fear getting into one. Fucking ream the shit out of the murderers and child rapists with broomsticks and they'll never rape again.

    1. Re:Prison is a place of punishment by ergo98 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Fucking ream the shit out of the murderers and child rapists with broomsticks and they'll never rape again.

      Uh, who do you think is doing the raping? Nuns with dildos? It's murderers and rapists plying their trade in the big house.

    2. Re:Prison is a place of punishment by KillerDeathRobot · · Score: 3, Informative

      A prison is supposed to be a place of punishment.

      Not necessarily. There are a number of philosophies regarding the reason for prisons; other than punishment, prisons can be said to be places of rehabilitation, places to simply remove the dangerous element from society, and probably other things.

      --
      Thinkin' Lincoln - a web comic of presidential proportions
    3. Re:Prison is a place of punishment by homer_ca · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes, that's why it's called the Dept. of Corrections. Not that they do much rehabilitation or corrections these days, but that is in the name.

    4. Re:Prison is a place of punishment by hackstraw · · Score: 1

      A prison is supposed to be a place of punishment.

      Anyone who has taken PSYC101 will tell you that punishment only works when it is temporally near the behavior that it is trying to change.

      Prison is about control, revenge, instilling fear in others so they won't do the same thing, and the feeling that the bad guys are "off the street", but it has nothing to do with punishment.

    5. Re:Prison is a place of punishment by wo1verin3 · · Score: 1

      >> People are not punished in prison according to
      >> whether they're murders and child rapists

      Wrong. Remember the child molesting priest that was killed in jail? The inmates don't take to kindly to f'd up shit any more then we do.

    6. Re:Prison is a place of punishment by timeOday · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Quite frankly, I don't care what goes on in there as long as people fear getting into one.
      That's crazy. You can go to jail for lots of things, for instance stealing email addresses. Or for that matter, you can be falsely convicted. It happens.
    7. Re:Prison is a place of punishment by vsprintf · · Score: 1

      Anyone who has taken PSYC101 will tell you that punishment only works when it is temporally near the behavior that it is trying to change.

      That only holds true for lab rats and freshmen. Other people are able to understand the consequences of their actions once they have been taught.

    8. Re:Prison is a place of punishment by laughingcoyote · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But cop-killers are at the top of the heap, and are looked up to. They don't take kindly to -some- types of f'ed up behavior, and very kindly to others. Please don't make it out as though jailhouse beatings and rape are meted out according to the severity of the prisoner's crime-they're generally meted out according to opportunity and physical strength, or lack thereof.

      --
      To fight the war on terror, stop being afraid.
    9. Re:Prison is a place of punishment by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      Oh I see. So it's better to not have people go to prison in the first place? Hell, if that's the case...I'm all for a night long fest of 5 finger discounts!

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    10. Re:Prison is a place of punishment by Alioth · · Score: 1

      But we're not even talking about a child molester or a rapist here - or even a violent criminal.

      Is it proportionate to the crime that a *non violent* criminal should be subjected to rape and the possibility of HIV infection? That's not justice, that's barbarism.

      Yes - the guy should be punished. No - he shouldn't be subjected to violent rape.

    11. Re:Prison is a place of punishment by runamok1 · · Score: 1

      People forget that our country was based on the idea that a thousand guilty should go free rather than one innocent be sacrificed.

      Somewhere along the way "think of the kids" and media hysteria took over our better moral instincts.

      It seems fine to say that those thousand guilty will hurt 10,000 MORE innocent people and the 1 innocent is a worthy cost of a working system.

      That is until YOU'RE the innocent.

      It would seem that being sodomized in prison would be a bit more than "cruel and unusual". I wonder why the prison system has never been sued into oblivion...

      One more bleeding heart liberal comment and I'm done. The fact that we (by we I mean it's an accepted fact in our culture) all think people get abused in prison and we send a crap load of non-violent offenders there is a damn tragedy.

    12. Re:Prison is a place of punishment by ergo98 · · Score: 1

      The inmates don't take to kindly to f'd up shit any more then we do.

      This is such a load of nonsense, as if prison is full of biblical "rough justice". The reality is that big name inmates that don't have a support structure get killed in jail because it gives someone infamy.

      If you think the guy that knifed an old lady for her purse is really the edge of justice...

  18. Sue AOL? by andalay · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I wonder if users can sue AOL for not taking proper precautions (obviously the assumption here is that they didnt)

    1. Re:Sue AOL? by ryanjensen · · Score: 1
      I don't know if the actual damages you could show would be worth the attorney's fees. Even treble and compensatory damages probably wouldn't cover the cost.

      But then, you never know. You should try it and tell us how it works out.

    2. Re:Sue AOL? by andalay · · Score: 1

      S1R 1 HoPe that u R not iMplYiNG that 1 uSe 40l for internet access..

      sorry i dont speak 1337 speak

  19. Interstellar transportation of stolen property!! by radar_music · · Score: 1

    "Interstellar transportation of stolen property"

    Yikes! At first glance that's what I read.

    Thinking about it though, (while not really stolen property) he could do that but it would take at least 4 years for the act to occur.

    --
    The mantra of impending doom: "Cooperate and Graduate"
  20. Punished? by ckemp.org · · Score: 4, Funny

    Damn, man. The guy deserves a thank you. Those casino sites rock. Really.

  21. Re:For Chrissake, Slashdot by Tatarize · · Score: 4, Funny

    Sshh, dear, don't cause a fuss. I'll have your spam. I love it. I'm having spam spam spam spam spam spam spam beaked beans spam spam spam and spam!

    --

    It is no longer uncommon to be uncommon.
  22. Re:For Chrissake, Slashdot by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If this wasn't about spam, people on here would be jumping up and down screaming their guts out about how the punishment doesn't fit the crime.

    $400k for 92 million screen names? That's less than a half-cent per compromised screen name- what a deal! The year in prison is on top of that but that's probably on the order of magnitude of about $500k (judging from how much you'd have to pay me to go) so we're still at less than a cent per screen name. Ask anyone whose screen name was compromised, with a punishment of less than a cent. This guy got off easy.

    For christ's sake, spam is NOT that big of a deal.

    Yes it is.

  23. We have to make it so. by www.sorehands.com · · Score: 1
    When spammers are having to pay money for spamming, we will win.


    Look at http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,119011,0 0.asp

    1. Re:We have to make it so. by kaustik · · Score: 1

      Oh, I see. Well, "we" won't win unless "we" are in on the lawsuit. Otherwise, "we" will continue to waste time and money until spammers are just too broke to keep going on.

  24. Re:But wait... by shark72 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    " Its not theft, right? AOL wasn't deprived of any property!"

    If you use the Slashdot groupthink definition of "stolen property," well then sure. You often see this come up in Slashdot discussions regarding copyright protection. Nonetheless, in the world of trade secrets, mailing lists, and the like, these are the terms that are used. If you leave a company and take with you a copy of a customer list, trade secret, or other confidential or proprietary information, you cannot use the "the company still has a copy so I didn't deprive them of anything" defense. In the real world, this claim can get you a +5, Astute from the Slashdot crowd, but that's about it.

    --
    Sitting in my day care, the art is decopainted.
  25. Such a danger by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Yes, get this man off the street before he copies anyone else's database! I know I feel a lot safer with him behind bars. The monster.

  26. Re:But wait... by zxnos · · Score: 1

    exactly. if we take the logic for downloading music/movies. etc and apply it here its the same thing. slashdot should be defending this man!

    --
    always mosh clockwise
  27. Re:Wait by kaustik · · Score: 1

    Well, not according to TFA.

    Federal prosecutor David Siegal said Smathers had engaged in the interstate transportation of stolen property and had violated a new federal "can-spam" law meant to diminish unsolicited e-mail messages about everything from Viagra to mortgages.

  28. The anarchist retard comment of the day by KillerDeathRobot · · Score: 1

    Thank you for the most fascist comment of the day.

    Who the hell are you or anybody else to say what's a crime and what's not, not to mention what's a "suitable punishment"? Can't take care of yourself? Buy a gun and shoot the bastard. Hell, even 90 year old granny can do that. Can't buy a gun legally? Shouldn't have given up your rights...


    Thank you for the anarchist retard comment of the day.

    --
    Thinkin' Lincoln - a web comic of presidential proportions
  29. Re:Wait by shark72 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "As I understand it Facts are not copyrightable. A huge list of email addresses is just a big list of facts. If they can't have a copyright on the list of email addresses they can't assert that they've been stolen."

    I'm not sure how you made that last logical connection. This isn't a copyright infringement case; it's one of trade secrets and proprietary information. This is the modern equivalent of the old days where somebody might sneak out a big list of customer names and snail-mail addresses -- they're not copyrightable either, but it sure as hell is legally actionable.

    --
    Sitting in my day care, the art is decopainted.
  30. 18-24 Months? by RockClimb · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In November of 2003 I was getting about 175 spams per day. In December of 2003 I installed Spamassassin, set up ip# and domain name block lists, tweaked the rules and wrote my own, and wrote a user email/spam report system. I spent a good deal of time getting this set up and working out the bugs. My email server received over 145,000 connections in 2004, over 143,000 were spam.

    I have the ability and resources to do these things but many internet users do not. While I don't have an AOL account, I still think he should have received more hard time. Put him away for a long time, maybe his cell mate will be a disgruntled AOL user who lost it after getting "one too many spams".... make other spammers and their helpers think twice.

    1. Re:18-24 Months? by Not_Wiggins · · Score: 1

      My email server received over 145,000 connections in 2004, over 143,000 were spam.

      While Spamassassin is awesome for filtering, I'm still upset at the lack of action taken by the government to address the 143,000 connections in your example; just because it was blocked doesn't mean that the spammers aren't causing "damage" in wasted bandwidth and computing cycles.

      --
      Diplomacy is the art of saying, "Nice doggie!" until you can find a rock.
    2. Re:18-24 Months? by RockClimb · · Score: 1

      I'm still upset at the lack of action taken by the government to address the 143,000 connections in your example

      I don't know..... I'm pretty upset by the fact that the morons thought I wanted their crap 143,000+ times :) You would think that the (55x)reject messages I send to some of them would give them a clue.... some of the reject messages are long enough that their email servers break the connection after only half of it gets sent ;)

  31. In aggregate, as a collection, they are... by PornMaster · · Score: 1

    The expression of the facts in a particular grouping can be copyrighted.

    OpenBSD is FOSS, but you can't make ISOs of the official CDs and sell them because Theo holds copyright of the particular way the CD is laid out. You can make your own CDs/ISOs, with the same data, but not just copy his image.

    The OpenBSD project does not make the ISO images used to master the official CDs available for download. The reason is simply that we would like you to buy the CD sets, helping fund ongoing OpenBSD development. The official OpenBSD CD-ROM layout is copyright Theo de Raadt. Theo does not permit people to redistribute images of the official OpenBSD CDs. As an incentive for people to buy the CD set, some extras are included in the package as well (artwork, stickers etc).

    Note that only the CD layout is copyrighted, OpenBSD itself is free. Nothing precludes someone else from downloading OpenBSD and making their own CD. If for some reason you want to download a CD image, try searching the mailing list archives for possible sources. Of course, any OpenBSD ISO images available on the Internet either violate Theo de Raadt's copyright or are not official images. The source of an unofficial image may or may not be trustworthy; it is up to you to determine this for yourself.


    http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq3.html#ISO

  32. Re:For Chrissake, Slashdot by Geoffreyerffoeg · · Score: 1

    beaked beans

    Quack!

  33. Intellectual property by bonch · · Score: 1

    Since he's being charged over stolen property, I'm assuming Slashdotters are okay with the concept of intellectual property in this circumstance.

    1. Re:Intellectual property by timeOday · · Score: 1

      I think people are seeing this as a spammer issue instead of an IP issue.... which it really isn't. Companies buy and sell these lists all the time, and use them for spamming all the time, and it's all perfectly legal. The only difference here is AOL is annoyed because they didn't get their cut.

    2. Re:Intellectual property by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      Nice try. Intellectual property isn't the issue here, as much as you like to constantly bring it up. Apparently you didn't read the article either. No mention of IP there either.

      --
      What?
  34. Re:But wait... by Macadamizer · · Score: 1

    Slashdot: If it's not a tangible object that someone else can be deprived the use of, it's not property!

    U.S. Courts, U.S. Law: If the law says its property, its property.

    That's why the courts come up with all of these crazy rulings that slashdotter's just can't seem to get their heads around...

    --

    "That's not even wrong..." -- Wolfgang Pauli
  35. Re:Stolen? by Macadamizer · · Score: 2, Informative

    "He infringed a trade secret"

    You can't infringe a trade secret. You can steal a trade secret, you can misappropriate a trade secret, but you can't infringe a trade secret.

    --

    "That's not even wrong..." -- Wolfgang Pauli
  36. Re:Stolen? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Who cares? This guy deserves the word "thief."

    Just like the RIAA calls the music pirates thieves.

  37. From what I can gather... by bonch · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Going after people who harvest and spam your e-mail address is Good. Going after people who harvest and pirate somebody else's music is Bad. How's that moral relativism smell?

    1. Re:From what I can gather... by de1orean · · Score: 1

      hmmm.... interesting. i'd like to see some actual debate about this. not petty trolling/flaming, but people actually debating this. i'll try and kick it off.

      i download "copyrighted" material, mostly music, mostly w/o paying. i also upload my own music (that i write/record/etc.)and share it freely.

      i guess the main difference b/t what i do and what the ex-AOL guy did is i don't profit from any of my "harvesting" (or any of my musical endeavors, truth be told).

      does the guy desreve to do hard time? probably not.

      thoughts?

    2. Re:From what I can gather... by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      where copies are made of music which would not have been bought anyways? The copyright owner loses nothing in this process.

      How about standing in a room with the teenager who claims to really like the music (enough to seek out a way and take the time to download it), and the artist who created the music. The teenager has to say to the artist, in so many words: "I like your stuff enough to go to some trouble to get it, but not enough to pay you to entertain my with it. Oh, and you have no choice in the matter. Now, sing for me for free!"

      Because the only thing that would make you right is if the person would not have otherwise obtained the music. Take away the ability to easily steal it, and at least some of those hypocritical fans would see the light and buy it.

      The copyright owner loses nothing in this process

      Nothing, except the living he/she would have made if the person who just dodged paying for the wares they're now enjoying would have paid for it. That's like saying that concerts by artists you really want to see are worth paying money to go see until you notice someone holding a fire exit door to the arena open for you to slip in... and then, because there was a way to get around paying, that, by definition means that the artist should have to like singing to you for free.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    3. Re:From what I can gather... by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      i download "copyrighted" material

      Why put that in quotes? If the person who creates the material wants to assert their ownership of it, is there any ambiguity? No more than there is if AOL asserts ownership of their operational databases.

      Not paying for something (which its owner has said he thinks you should pay for) that you none the less take anyway... that's avoiding a cost, and that's profiting. But why split hairs? Just because you want to give away your own musical creations doesn't mean that you've now got the rights to waive someone elses rights. The owner is the owner - period! The owner might be generous, or short sited, or just trying to make a living (or trying to get rich). Doesn't matter... it's the material creator's/owner's call on how is material is disseminated, and at what (if any) price.

      If the guy vandalized AOL's office building in a way that cost as many man hours, customer good will, and bad press coverage as this event did... that person would be in hot legal water. If he physically walked off with anything else within those walls, the same. Taking something intrinsically valuable, with the express purpose of using it against the wishes of the people that own it... that's a criminal breach of trust, and damaging to a lot of people, their jobs, and their investments. Not to mention his contribution to even more spam choking our collective networks.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    4. Re:From what I can gather... by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      there is no human right to private property

      Ah, well, if Karl Marx says so, then it must naturally be correct. You can tell by the fantastic, peaceful, prosperous societies that followed his advice. Of course, the ones that did, and have since managed to provide a decent standard of living and some growth in those countries' overall capacity for their people have... shifted back over to private property. Which, of course, makes sense. Without any prospect of taking that which your do with your time and making from it a life that you can pass to your family, or use as you see fit, all you are is a slave. Karl Marx's ideas certainly did make a lot of slaves (and murder millions of people).

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    5. Re:From what I can gather... by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      equal opportunity for everybody is out of the question

      Right... because people have the good or bad luck to be born more or less capable than other people, or in the middle of circumstances more or less desirable/likely (weather, geography, local customs, etc) to result in great opportunities. What Marxism does, though, is ensure that no one has opportunity towards their own ends, and by their own standards. Free trade between people and groups of people does not include "little" wars or any other kind. When non-free countries run by mafia-like (not capitalist) idiots in places like Japan (see the Pacific theater of WWII, which they caused themselves - they were not capitalists, they were a feudal society), Germany (again, not capitalists, but a Fascist government in imperialist mode), or Iraq (Saddam wanted more coast line for oil export capacity... so he invaded Kuwait and started the recent ball rolling) and so on. There's nothing capitalist about those nations' actions. There's a lot of Stalin in Saddam, though, and a lot of Marx in Stalin.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
  38. Re:For Chrissake, Slashdot by Sygiinu · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Yes it is.

    Hey man, you and the rest of the hang the spammers crowd need to realise that it cuts both ways. If you want a free and open Internet you have to accept the spam. Don't like spam? Then don't give out your E-mail address to people likely to spam you. Still get spam? Write yourself a spam filter.

    I don't like spam, but I'd rather have spam than an over-regulated Internet and I think that spending 5 minutes of my time each day dealing with the spam that gets through the filters is much better than some guy having to go to prison with all the psychological torment that might/will cause, not only to him but his innocent family and friends as well. Not to mention that sending people to prison harms the economy.

  39. Wrong charge by iamacat · · Score: 1

    It should be copyright infrigement or breach of privacy, not theft. We might not mind in this case, but we don't want 12 year old girls using Kazaa to be charged with grand theft and put in jail.

    1. Re:Wrong charge by afidel · · Score: 1

      Well, he pled guilty to a conspiracy charge, which may be correct. He did in fact conspire to steal trade secrets from AOL. What the prosecutor says to the email and the legal wording of the filing are probably very different things. At least that's what I got by reading the article and reading between the lines.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
  40. He sold it? by AstroDrabb · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Smathers used another employee's account to steal the data, and sold it to a Vegas-based online casino operator.
    So this guy sold this information and is getting in trouble for it? Well that sounds fair. However, what about the Vegas company that purchased the "goods"? Are any legal proceedings taking place against them? Or is anything a corporation does "OK" with the government and the DA's office?

    I haven't heard anything against the Vegas company that purchased this information. Why is it OK for a company to carry out these acts but if a citizen does the same acts, he/she is fined a few hundred grand and sent to jail for a year or two?

    --
    If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land,
    it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. -James Madison
    1. Re:He sold it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Because this is Amerika of course, you didnt think this was still a gov't by the people for the people did you? They abolished that secretly in the 70's and the power players have been consolidating ever since.

    2. Re:He sold it? by nettdata · · Score: 1

      However, what about the Vegas company that purchased the "goods"? Are any legal proceedings taking place against them?

      Well, according to TFA, "yes".

      --



      $0.02 (CDN)
    3. Re:He sold it? by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      They abolished that secretly in the 70's

      This claptrap gets modded as "interesting"? That's an interesting tinfoil hat, anyway.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    4. Re:He sold it? by ari_j · · Score: 1

      Interesting? Hardly. Of you want big government and interference with commerce, the period you want is 1937-1995. The Supreme Court let FDR cut its balls off in 1937 ("A stitch in time to save nine." comes from that event) and it took until 1995 for Rehnquist to give the dosage of testosterone into the Court that pushed it back to telling Congress that the "interstate commerce" clause of the Constitution doesn't involve frickin' everything. (During the cited period, a federal law was applied to a subsistence farmer, because somehow he was "affecting interstate commerce.") Before 1937, the Court struck down half of the New Deal. From 1937 until 1995, not one law was declared unconstitutional for going beyond the commerce clause.

      The 70's were nothing for government having its hands in business.

    5. Re:He sold it? by tootlemonde · · Score: 1

      "A stitch in time to save nine." comes from that event

      The old saying "a stitch in time saves nine" is much older than 1937. I think you are confusing "a switch in time to save nine". This version of the old saying was a humourous play on words at the time of the Supreme Court decisions. Those decisions upheld parts of the New Deal and ended FDR's plan to increase the number of justices to 15 from 9.

      The phrase is mentioned inter alia here and here.

    6. Re:He sold it? by ari_j · · Score: 1

      Oops. You are correct. I know the history but got the word wrong, and yes - what I was saying is that the switch made involved backing down from FDR; and the Court didn't step forward on the issue again for 58 years.

    7. Re:He sold it? by ari_j · · Score: 1

      And I just noticed that I began a sentence "Of you..." instead of "If you..." Clearly, I had too much to drink last night.

  41. Tangible property, odorless gas, and the E911 case by Anders+Andersson · · Score: 1
    A database isn't tangible property.

    I would agree with you, but look at how the court argued in United States vs Riggs back in 1990 (yes, the famous E911 BellSouth document case) about applying the "interstate transfer of stolen goods" rule to an electronic file. When the issue of tangibility was brought up, the court briefly compared the electronic file with "a colorless, odorless, and tasteless gas", arguing that the "interstate transfer" rule could reasonably be applied to the gas in spite of its "intangibility". Now, even an odorless gas does consist of very tangible atoms, and it seems to me like a rather weak argument for applying the law also to what is essentially a transmission of information. If a TV station broadcasts a movie without paying royalties, is that "interstate transfer of stolen goods" too?

    In the E911 case, the "value" of the stolen document was heavily inflated, quoted as $79,499 when a paper copy was actually available from Bellcore for $13.

    There are actually two pieces of intangible property involved here. One is the original work as such, the database that may have cost a lot of time and money to compile. The other is an electronic copy of said original, perhaps available for a modest fee. I believe that in both the E911 case and this AOL case, only the copies have been transferred. The difference is that copies of the E911 document was available for sale, while the AOL customer database appearantly wasn't. How do you determine the "value" of something that isn't legally available for sale? Are we talking black market prices with respect to the copy (what someone is prepared to pay for it) here, or estimated damages to the database owner caused by the misappropriation of the information in it?

    When a copy of a printed book is stolen, the value is considered to be the retail price for the copy (and that copy is quite tangible). No license fee for a reprint or damages for copyright infringement is ever involved. If an original manuscript is stolen, that is quite a different thing. But if you make an unauthorized copy (on paper) of an unpublished manuscript?

  42. Re:Wait by afidel · · Score: 3, Informative

    You are correct. This site has some good information including some applicable federal statutes involving theft of trade secrets and economic espionage. This guy was looking at up to 10 years in prison and 500K in fines so he got off relativly lightly. I never knew that theft of trade secrets carried criminal attachment, I thought it was purely a civil tort, shows how much you might not know about the law if you're not a lawyer.

    --
    There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
  43. Re:Wait by kayak334 · · Score: 1

    I side with who's correct, not accordig to party lines.

    From your blog:

    We, Republicans that is, got our asses stomped in 1992 and 1996. Sure, we didn't like it, but you know what? We dealt with it.

    You bet on "gay marriage" and scaremongering about the supreme court. Sorry, that was not a winning bet.


    Wow. And NFL football is gay? I hope that was mostly a joke, because your attempts to prove it were pathetic.

  44. Flexible legislation by Anders+Andersson · · Score: 1
    A sometimes common perception among Slashdotters is that the law is immutable and easily defeated by technology, but a look at how the law has changed over the past several hundred years shows that the law does eventually catch up. It's my understanding that interstate transport can now include e-mail as well as the historic methods of postal mail and, as you've mentioned, cars.

    The law (either the statutory text or its interpretation) is amended to deal with new realities, that's true, but it doesn't happen automatically. Some laws are widened in scope, others are not, in either case because of a reason. If not, totally different laws might end up applying to the very same circumstances, leading to mutually contradictory rulings. How come electronic publishing has been subject to the "interstate transfer of stolen goods" rule long before it's covered by freedom of the press statutes? The AOL database case isn't about publishing, but many other cases of electronic information transfer (such as the E911 case) are.

    After having establisheded different legal frameworks surrounding different things like postal mail, telephone services, newspaper publishing, broadcast radio and television, banking, trade, private property, workplace environment, healthcare, public administration, law enforcement, education, scientific research, innovation, and national security, it shouldn't come as a major surprise that having all those laws apply to said activities when taking place within the same piece of machinery on your desktop may become a little messy if not done with proper consideration.

  45. AOL by xmp_phrack · · Score: 3, Funny

    so easy to abuse, no wonder it's number one!

  46. Kevin Mitnick may agree by johnpaul191 · · Score: 1

    he was locked up in an unusually rough situation for his non-violent crimes. if he was on trial today i bet he would be hit with some patriot act violations and locked up as a terrorist.

    i know a million other people face the same thing, but his is a case most people here should know about.

  47. Re:Menace Off The Street by ScentCone · · Score: 1

    Whew! I'll sleep better at night knowing this guy is doing hard time.

    Well, considering that guys like this literally keep system admins up at night (not sleeping better) as they clean up after the billions of pieces of trash that his "customer" sends out, choking up businesses and private e-mail accounts... fewer of him, and I'd actually, literally sleep better. As for the brick-smashing guy, well, that really sucked. Also, the guy that broke into my car and stole my LAN tools deserves to actually, truly die. I'd like to take care of that myself, and will never have the chance, and neither will the cops. But, this clown who sold out his employer's data (and their customers' trust) for a smallish pile of cash knowing that billions of spam messages would soon plague millions of people... he's an ass, and now he gets to cover his for a year or so.

    --
    Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
  48. Re:Just the Fed Out of Control (Again...) by ScentCone · · Score: 1

    so called "laws"

    So, what would this thief have to do in order to pass your test of righteousness? Maybe... kill a security guard while stealing the company data? Or is that still OK? Where do you draw the line? Or is theft OK, as long as you're not actually putting someone in the hospital?

    --
    Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
  49. Re:Copied, not stole by ScentCone · · Score: 1

    As far as I can tell, aol still had the account names. When my car got stolen, what I objected to was that I no longer had my car, not that someone else had a car a lot like mine. Aiding spammers may be wrong, but let's keep the categories straight.

    Not so. The block of data that he stole amounts, by any reasonable standard, as proprietary information and trade secrets. If he had stood there and photocopied customer data, it would have been the same story. His intent is almost beside the point - he knew he was diluting the company's value (and its customers' trust in the company) - and that's willful damage, something they should also have pursued.

    --
    Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
  50. Yes, but even your cellmate gets tired. by SarahKatt · · Score: 1

    The horrible thing is that this joker will probably have net access between rapings. Alot of prisons (especially minimum and low security), allow the inmates some form of internet access. A hypothetical situation here, but he could get online, pull this list off of some offsite file dump, and sell it again and again. While I'm not saying this guy would be dumb enough to do this, I do wish to state that if the punishment is to fit the crime, he should have gotten the same treatment that most hackers do: From sentencing until $X years later, you cannot touch or interact with a computer. As a potentional victim, I would find this more acceptible, on top of a much higher fine, in lieu of jailtime.

    --
    Let's fake an answer for the curious; let's fake it all for the fame.
  51. LOL@FEDERAL PRISON by ChemShadow · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I've been a felon for wire fraud since i was thirteen, nuttin happened to me other than 29 months in wales detention in wisconsin and 29 months in a group home ( www.norriscenter.org ) and 3 years probation. I'm 17 in 2 days. I paid(well, my parents) paid $201,000 in court fees and restitution. we are broke now. :(

  52. Prison is punishment and a deterrent. by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

    Actually, the two DO go togeather. Prison is SUPPOSED to be a deterrent. Prison is NOT supposed to be a place of free shelter with feature comforts. It's supposed to be harsh as hell.

    In fact, rather then having prisoners rott away and spending my tax dollars, I would rather the system mirror that of what happens in Singapore. That is to say if you rob a store, you should have your ass beaten till skin breaks. I mean, total pain and torture...but not enough to physically mame you for life. Just enough to drill it in your thick skull that it is NOT ok to do crime.

    We are all children in life. The only difference is some of us learn our leasons in life so as not to repeat them as we get older.

    --
    Life is not for the lazy.
  53. Re:Stolen? by Macadamizer · · Score: 1

    It doesn't matter what the dictionary says. If you go down to the court and file an action for "whatever" of a trade secret, the court will accept "theft of a trade secret" or "misappropriation of a trade secret." "Infringement" of a trade secret is not a recognized cause of action in any jurisdiction I am aware of.

    My assertion may be "unfounded" based on whatever dictionary you used, but it is not "unfounded" based on my experience with trade secret law.

    --

    "That's not even wrong..." -- Wolfgang Pauli
  54. Re:Stolen? by Geoffreyerffoeg · · Score: 1

    You can steal a trade secret

    Which is kinda my original question: if the company still has the original information and only loses their exclusive ownership and distribution ability, then has the information been stolen?

    It's the same situation with copyrighted materials: you didn't steal the material, you took away their exclusive right to copy. So why isn't that called "stealing"?

  55. Re:Stolen? by arbitraryaardvark · · Score: 1

    Ah, the I may have misunderstood your point.
    When you wrote

    "You can't infringe a trade secret. You can steal a trade secret, you can misappropriate a trade secret, but you can't infringe a trade secret."

    I thought you were making a claim about reality, rather than a claim about the name given to the cause of action.

    The federal criminal statute is labled theft of trade secrets, but in the elements of the offense it is sufficient to allege misappropriation or infringement, and there need be no allegation of theft. Criminal statutes are construed more narrowly than civil causes of action, and the precise meaning of words matters.
    The defendent here wisely accepted a deal.
    I don't know whether there's prior case law interpreting the word "stolen" in this context.
    We agree that the list is property. We disagree about whether, in English, the term 'steal' included 'copy without authorization.'

    I used dictionary.com.

    Now that I ponder the question, I believe a complaint stating infringement of a trade secret would be sufficient to meet notice pleading requirements under federal rules.
    I think you are right that these torts are more often referred to as theft of trade secret.
    The slashdot post-scarcity conceptual distinction between copying crimes and deprivation crimes probably hasn't been fully litigated by the courts, which are still operating more under a scarcity-based world-view.

  56. Re:Stolen? by Macadamizer · · Score: 1

    Looks like we are on the same page now.

    "Now that I ponder the question, I believe a complaint stating infringement of a trade secret would be sufficient to meet notice pleading requirements under federal rules."

    That's probably true, but, unlike patent, copyright and federally-registered trademark infringment actions, trade secret actions are generally taken up in state court, which is why I suggested that YMMV.

    But you are right, I wasn't very clear -- I was discussing the realities of a legal action, and not what the "definitions" really mean, or whether or not "stealing" a nontangible object is "stealing."

    --

    "That's not even wrong..." -- Wolfgang Pauli
  57. Re:Stolen? by Macadamizer · · Score: 1

    If I understand your question correctly -- and I may not -- you are wondering why you "steal" a trade secret, whereas you "infringe" a copyright, even though both merely take away an "exclusive right." I don't know if that is what you are asking, so I'll simply assume it.

    There is a difference between trade secrets and copyrights (and patent and trademarks) that may not be obvious. With Copyrights, patents, and trademarks, you are being given an "extra" right (or extra set of rights) that you don't get with trade secrets. Basically, with trade secrets, you can only protect them as long as they remain secret -- once they are out in the open, that's it, there's nothing left to protect. So the law has made illegal the act of, for lack of a better name, "publicizing" trade secrets, and calls it "stealing" trade secrets, and that makes sense, because you are "stealing" the value of something, and the original owner cannot ever get it back. If the value is in keeping it secret, then once it is not secret, the value is lose, and that is something you have stolen from the owner. So we call taking a trade secret a "theft."

    Now, copyrights and like are different -- here, they are already out in the public -- that's the bargain you make with the government to get the protections in the first place -- and so we have the governmentally-imposed rights that we give the holder of the copyright. Generally, whenever someone is interfering with someone elses "rights," we call that "infringment" -- you can infringe someone's right to control distribution of a copyright, but you can also infringe on someone right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness as well. It's not the same as a theft of a trade secret -- even after an infringement, you still have something of value, so we call it infringement of a copyright instead of theft of a copyright (which could still happen in certain circumstances, but would involve stealing the right to enforce the rights, not the rights themselves).

    Now, before everyone jumpsd in and says "hey, he just said copyright infringement isn't stealing," you need to be careful here. I said that copyright infringement didn't mean that you stole the copyright holder's rights to control his work -- you just "infringed" on them. What you have stolen is the economic value of the sale to you, and to anyone else who gets a copy of your infringing copy. I know, you'll say, "but I wouldn't buy it anyway," but you DON'T know that for a fact probably even for yourself, and certainly not for everyone else sharing from your copy. Even though YOUR infringement may not have "stolen" the economic value of a complete copy of the work from the copyright holder,your infringement HAS stolen some economic value, even if it is small and hard to quantify, and THAT IS stealing, no matter how you slice it.

    I know I'm not going to be able to convinve anyone otherwise, but at least I made may arguments.

    --

    "That's not even wrong..." -- Wolfgang Pauli
  58. Re:Stolen? by arbitraryaardvark · · Score: 1

    We are both discussing the realities of a legal action.
    Part of the discussion is about whether the indictment fairly described what happened, or was overcharging in order to coerce a plea.
    At the December 21st hearing, the judge refused to accept a plea, which is unusual. At a second hearing, he pled guilty to conspiracy to spam, and to violating a statute which prohibits transporting stolen or fraudulently obtained goods. The indictment had alleged both that the list was stolen and that it was obtained by fraud,
    so the issue of whether or not the list was stolen was not resolved in this case. Sounds like you are familar with this area -
    has the term "stolen" in the transporting stolen good statute been defined by statute or case law to include unauthorized copying? Cite please?
    It may well have been, but so far I haven't seen anyone in this thread point to such authority, so we're speculating.
    http://assembler.law.cornell.edu/usc ode/html/uscod e18/usc_sec_18_00002314----000-.html
    (statute)

  59. Re:Stolen? by Macadamizer · · Score: 1

    Well, I don't have a lot of time to do research today, but here's a couple of notes I found in West's annoted federal code:

    ""Stolen," as used in National Stolen Property Act, is not term of art and instead is broad in scope with wide ranging meaning. U.S. v. Pre-Columbian Artifacts, N.D.Ill.1993, 845 F.Supp. 544."

    I didn't read this case, but my guess is this suggests that the dictionary defintion of "stolen" may not be controlling for the purpose of this statute.

    "Proprietary information stolen from telephone company's "911" computer text file was capable of being "stolen, converted or taken by fraud" within meaning of federal statute prohibiting interstate transportation of stolen property. U.S. v. Riggs, N.D.Ill.1990, 739 F.Supp. 414."

    Again, I didn't read this case to determine if the test file itself was stolen or not, but this seems to imply that if you simply steal the "information," that enough to be stealing under this section.

    The Slashdot crew will like this one:

    "Act of duplicating copyrighted aggregations of sounds without authorization constituted "stealing, converting, or taking by fraud," and thus such act could be prosecuted under this section. U.S. v. Sam Goody, Inc., E.D.N.Y.1981, 506 F.Supp. 380, 210 U.S.P.Q. 318."

    So there's a case for ya that says copyright infringement can be considered "stealing, converting, or taking by fraud," at least as far as this statute is concerned.

    And finally, here's another quote from the same case which also suggests that the act of infringing a copyright is stealing:

    "Unauthorized duplicates of copyrighted sound recording were "goods, wares, [or] merchandise," as required for fraudulent taking of such recordings to be violation of this section, even though actual tapes on which such unauthorized duplications of sounds were placed were not stolen. U.S. v. Sam Goody, Inc., E.D.N.Y.1981, 506 F.Supp. 380, 210 U.S.P.Q. 318. "

    Anyway, for the purposes of this code section at least, "stealing" appears to have a pretty broad definition, and this guy's theft of the user lists is certainly the type of "proprietary information" that will fall under this statute.

    --

    "That's not even wrong..." -- Wolfgang Pauli
  60. Re:Stolen? by arbitraryaardvark · · Score: 1

    OK, you've done what I asked for, cited a case, so you win, and I'll let it drop.

    But first I'm going to bicker midly about your examples, and tell some war stories, before I fall asleep in my rocking chair.

    National stolen property act - different statute, seemed to be dealing only with tangible goods.
    Sam Goody dealt with the fraud prong of the statute, rather than the stolen goods prong.

    Riggs was operation sun devil, the case that set up the steve jackson games case. Here's more:
    http://www.savage.net/public_html/net/phrac k.html
    The following March a Federal grand jury was told that the document that Knight Lightning had printed in Phrack was worth 80 thousand dollars and was extremely dangerous to the public. The grand jury brought a Federal indictment against Knight Lighting. He faced 31 years in prison for the interstate transportation of stolen property, wire-fraud and violations of the computer fraud and abuse act.

    "In July of 90 we went to court...the witnesses took the stand to try and prove that I had not just committed the crimes they were saying i committed, but to prove that the actions I took were crimes in the first place. The defense never had to put on a single witness, by the end of the week, the governments case had completely fallen apart. The now famous 80 thousand dollar E-911 document was proven to be [publicly] available for no more than 13 dollars from Bellcore."

    Because the information was publicly available the case against Knight Lightning was dropped and the trial ended after only 4 days. Knight Lightning however is stuck paying off $100,000 in legal fees, the US government is immune from being sued. "Anything I had ever saved up for college has gone into paying it off."

    If there was anything at all that came out of the E-911 case against Craig it was that there was a large public awakening to the rights of electronic journalism and to government intrusions to suspected hackers. Organisations like the EFF and CPSR were formed to look into people's rights and uphold civil liberties on the internet. Jim Warren started CFP (Computers, Freedom, Privacy) as a direct result of the Operation Sundevil raids and the case against Knight Lightning. Phrack is still being published* and can be obtained via WWW, anonymous ftp or by subscribing. Phrack is still free to individuals but has now been copyrighted. Corporations and security professionals are expected to register their subscriptions.
    ---
    * Phrack had its last issue recently. In 1992, I was having lunch with Craig at CFP 2, listening to Bruce Sterling talk about the hacker crackdown,
    at a table with eric b. and emmanuel goldstein and an irs agent, with phiber optik wandering around and some kid who'd hacked his way in by stealing my credentials, and he told me a bit about his side of the case. I came away from that weekend wanting to be somebody who fought for free speech on the internet. I've failed rather miserably at it so far (majors.blogspot.com), but I gave it a shot.

  61. Re:Stolen? by Macadamizer · · Score: 1

    Well, I did preface my examples with the facts that a) I hadn't read them, and b) I just pulled the cases off of West's annotated U.S. code for that particular statute... I've had a 60+ billable week this week putting the finishing touches on a Markman brief, so I didn't spend the time to vet the cases before posting them -- thanks for being gentle!

    Interesting stuff there about hackers and the like. This stuff we've been talking about is a bit out of my area, I spend most of my time litigating and prosecuting patents, with a little copyright, a little general commercial lit, and some labor and employment law to spice things up...

    Enjoy your rocking chair...

    --

    "That's not even wrong..." -- Wolfgang Pauli