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NASA Proposes Warming Mars

hotsauce writes "The Guardian reports a NASA scientist has proposed releasing a gas on Mars to start a global warming of the planet in order to make it more hospitable for life. No word on how much traction this has amongst geophysicists. I wonder how much simulation and testing you need before we feel safe about affecting an entire planet."

136 of 979 comments (clear)

  1. Easy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    Shouldn't be that hard considering how good us humans are at causing global warming!

    1. Re:Easy! by I_Love_Pocky! · · Score: 5, Funny

      Please, it is common knowledge amongst conservatives that humanity's ability to affect climate change on a global scale is a fairy tale. A fairy tale put forth by the liberal media to hurt American industry, leaving us ripe for communist invasion. Clearly we would have no chance of changing Mars's atmosphere either. Liberal wackos.

    2. Re:Easy! by EpsCylonB · · Score: 2, Funny

      Honestly can't tell if your joking or not, and thats sad.

    3. Re:Easy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      That's right. Given the choice between believing so-called "Scientists" with their facts and their experiments, and a best-selling sci-fi author that tells me what I want to hear, I know who I want to believe!

    4. Re:Easy! by kiwidefunkt · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Michael Crichton has a Ph.D from Harvard Medical School. The hardcover copy of State of Fear has around 21 pages of bibliography and each page has footnotes and citations for every fact. The author spent three years researching his topics before writing a book.

      Um...but yeah...don't believe him, he's just a liberal hippie who doesn't know anything.

      I believed in global warming (and that DDT is dangerous, among other things) before I read the book.

      --
      www.kiwilyrics.com - a wiki for lyrics
    5. Re:Easy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Don't you think that if it was as simple as he's made out to you, he'd have convinced pretty much the entire scientific world by now?

      I'm sure he did his "research". I've read Cato Institute studies too that are backed by citations and other studies, and usually the studies are either dumb, contradicted by other studies, or simply do not draw the conclusions the Cato Institute wants you to think. Cato, of course, has the excuse that it's not a scientific body, it's an economic body, and it's trying to find ways to fit the world around economics.

      Crichton doesn't have the luxury. He's essentially yelling "You're all wrong" to an audience where the experts continue to disagree with him after he's made his case. If you've spent any time on Usenet, you'll be familiar with lots of people who do this.

      There are some consensus's at the moment:

      1. The Earth is under a relatively recent spell of disproportionate warming. Whatever else it might be, cyclical seems a tad unlikely.

      2. The amount of CO2 in the air is increasing as a result of human activity. (It may be for other reasons too, but right now, human beings are definitely responsible for a massive amount of CO2 generation.) This is self-evident, you can't burn carbon stocks like coal and oil without expecting it to increase the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere.

      3. CO2 is a greenhouse gas. The experiments have been done.

      Beyond that, we don't know. Most of the economists arguing against the notion there's any threat usually come down to making one of four arguments: That the first is false (no, it's true, ask NASA.) That the second is false (No, that's true too, it's self-evident.) That the third is false (erm, no, do the experiments.) Or all three might be true but we don't know if human activities are enough to make a major change to the climate, and as we don't know, we should pretend we're not and carry on business as usual.

      Anyone can make use of the fourth argument because it essentially requires no proof. "They can't predict for sure that GW is caused by humans". Crichton appears to be ignoring what's going on and hoping the fuzziness and FUD inherent in the final GW-kook argument will carry the day. That's probably why there's no avalanch of scientists in existance saying "Wow, Michael, we never thought of that" (mass slapping of foreheads) "We were wrong all along."

    6. Re:Easy! by Sheepdot · · Score: 2, Informative

      They are? Wait.. oh wait.

      They have been since 1970, at about 0.01 inch per year. The caps are not increasing their melting any, in fact, all signs point to "cyclical".

      After all, the only way for the caps to grow in size is for precipitation to fall on the poles, and that's hard to come by when the area surrounding is made up of ice.

    7. Re:Easy! by bzipitidoo · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I believe Diamond's Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed is better researched and thought out than Crichton's State of Fear. A common route to failure was denial, until the problem got so bad that society could no longer handle it. False alarms are also a problem, but from what I hear and see, global warming is real.

      What to do about global warming? Perhaps if we were really motivated, we could reduce greenhouse gas emissions enough to matter without wrecking our economies, otherwise that cure might be worse than the disease. Or maybe we shouldn't try to stop global warming but instead get ready for it by moving people to higher ground, working on more drought and heat tolerant crop varieties, adding irrigation, inventing and stockpiling vaccines for hundreds of tropical diseases, and other measures.

      --
      Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
    8. Re:Easy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Michael Crichton has a Ph.D from Harvard Medical School

      Making him supremely qualified to... uh... be a climatologist?

    9. Re:Easy! by Alan+Partridge · · Score: 2, Funny

      He wrote "The Andromeda Strain" and "Jurassic Park", too! He was damned sure right about both of those subjects!

      --
      That was classic intercourse!
    10. Re:Easy! by Alan+Partridge · · Score: 2, Informative

      Every child of six knows that GW Bush is one of the lizard people. Ask David Icke, he knows...

      --
      That was classic intercourse!
    11. Re:Easy! by losinggeneration · · Score: 2, Funny

      DDT is dangerous? So is that why my uncle is slightly stupid because he used to think it was fun to ride his bike "in the fog." It all makes sense now.

    12. Re:Easy! by JWW · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's the problem you can't. There isn't enough data.

      You're looking at 150 or so years of decent climate data for the Earth. Then you've got ice cores and geological data which can fill in more data but with longer time rates for their measurements.

      Its not that theres a X year cycle and we should be able to see that, its that there are cycles on top of cycles and large drops and increases in temperatrure of the Earth over its history. You have to deal with cycles on a geologic timeframe, on a solar timeframe, and with many many other factors affecting everything.

      It is an absolute certainty that we don't have enough data to prove anything definitively in the climate arena.

      That why it makes such a fun political topic for so many people!!

    13. Re:Easy! by runderwo · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Long story short: climates changes are cyclical, we just finished a period of warming, now we're in a period of cooling.
      That's certainly possible. The problem is that nobody has yet established cause and effect between CO2 and global climate, and both sides assume one or the other.

      We know periods of high global temperature correlate closely with periods of high atmospheric CO2 concentration. We know that CO2 concentration has been stable since around 1000AD all the way up to when we started burning fossil fuels as a primary source of energy, at which point the levels began to increase, and ever since then the rate of change has been increasing. However, we don't know whether CO2 concentration causes global warming, or the other way around; there is no causal link implied by the data, only a correlation, and when all you have is a correlation, it is easy to get cause and effect confused.

      What global warming alarmists fail to address is the very real possibility that a natural warm climate phase evaporates CO2 from seawater and spurs tectonic activity, which would raise atmospheric CO2 concentration as an effect - meaning that our contributions to CO2 concentration really have no effect at all on global climate. What global warming "debunkers" like to do, however, is ignore data and attempt to perform ad hominem attacks on climate scientists.

      Granted, there are a lot of people who refer to themselves as "scientists", but are really nothing more than pundits and theoreticians/philosophers; they do not apply the scientific method and/or they are unconcerned with either having evidence to prove their position, or ignore evidence that contradicts their position. Just as there are many politicians who prefer a faith-based approach to public policy, instead of placing trust in sound science as our best tool to understand our situation.

      What we should do is look at the facts. The fundamental debate here is between cause and effect of CO2 concentration and global climate. Ignore the zealots and misguided attempts at global legislation for now. We are trying to answer a question so that we can make sound judgement based on the answer - assuming the answer to support one's judgement would be a mistake.

      Now, it's not to say that we shouldn't attempt to limit our use of fossil fuels. This would be a wise move as insurance, and for USians. would additionally unsnare us from the quandary of trade with the Middle East. But a panicking approach instead of one gauged for the best long-term benefit is wrong, until the evidence shows that we do indeed have an acute problem on our hands.

    14. Re:Easy! by CaptainAvatar · · Score: 4, Informative

      He's an MD, not a PhD (much less a PhD in climatology), and the fact that you would change your mind about any scientific issue after reading a novel (no matter how well referenced) is pretty scary. You might like to read this for some informed criticism of Crichton's book.

      --
      The real Captain Avatar is a fictional character, so I suppose he doesn't mind if I impersonate him.
  2. No ! by mirko · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's a virgin soil and it has to remain so : we have to much to learn about it instead of polluting it : When Mankind can prove it can live in equilibrium oni Earth, then it can spread elsewhere.

    --
    Trolling using another account since 2005.
    1. Re:No ! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      Right, because we absolutely cannot risk damaging the delicate ecosystem on Mars, thereby rendering the planet inhospitable for human life!

    2. Re:No ! by DrXym · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Virgin soil = rock dust. Assuming there to be no life on Mars, I don't get what the problem is with altering it. Now naturally if there is life that's a whole can of worms in itself, but if not, then what damn difference does it make?

    3. Re:No ! by martinde · · Score: 2, Funny

      > When Mankind can prove it can live in equilibrium oni Earth, then it can spread elsewhere.

      What do we do when we prove we can't then?!

    4. Re:No ! by raistlin42 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Are you serious?

      It's virgin in that it's LIFELESS. Why should it remain that way?

      The ecological problems on earth are the REASON humanity should colonize, not a reason they shouldn't.

      Necessity is the mother of invention. Progress is caused by problems.

      Yours is a neo-luddism.

      --
      "My life is a joke that no one gets"
    5. Re:No ! by Chris+Daniel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      One thing that should be obvious about mankind by now is that it's entirely impossible for an industrialised society to live comfortably without disrupting the environment in some manner. Right now, Mars has (as far as we can tell) zero life on it. Introducing a breatheable atmosphere isn't going to change that until we start planting things, or letting animals run loose. The only effect I can see of giving Mars a friendly atmosphere might be the end of dust storms ... and we wouldn't want those anyway. The point is that there isn't much of an ecology to ruin without life. Of course, the landscapes might be pretty to some (such as myself, judging from lander pictures), so naturally there should be areas cordoned off for preservation -- but preserving a lifeless wasteland is much easier than an interdependent ecology such as the one(s) here on Earth.

      --
      Don't blame me -- I voted for Roslin.
    6. Re:No ! by darkmeridian · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Well, you do not know if there's life unless and until you do research. What if you jump the gun and change Mars before you complete all research?

      Furthermore, there is research that could reveal the genesis of our solar system, planet, or universe up there on Mars. We should preserve it until we are sure that we need the planet populated or that we have exhausted all scientific exploration of Mars.

      --
      A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
    7. Re:No ! by visgoth · · Score: 4, Informative

      This exact debate was played out in the Red Mars Trilogy of books. One faction wanted to leave Mars in its "pristine" state, while another wanted to make it habitable by humans. An interesting read, to say the least.

      --
      My patience is infinite, my time is not.
    8. Re:No ! by deft · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This comment sounds very "insightful", but so does alot of philosophy. Real life progress is never as cut and dry, and if this thinking had its way, we'd never get anything done.

      It ignores that fact there is no equilibrium on earth. It is constantly changing, and we are changing with it. It also assumes a tremendous value on "virgin soil" as if this one fact makes it better. And what is the value in waiting till we have mastered the earth to start looking at a completely different type of planet... this assumes the Earth data is going to apply to Mars somehow.

      This reminds me of the people that say that humans changing the earth aren't natural, therefore it's bad. I always have to wonder what about humans aren't natural, because we are exactly like every other creature on the planet. We have absolutely no choice but to act in our nature. Somewhere along the lines someone decided that if it changes the environment too much, then it's not "natural". This argument isn't sound, or I'd argue that beavers building huge dams and creating gigantic ponds/lakes/starting small ecosystems themsleves aren't "natural".

      Don't tell me now that beavers are ok because they look pretty natural doing it, but we as humans don't. Or, is it just us and the beavers now, screwing up the Earth for the whales?

      I wonder what point in human evolution we became "unnatural"; Was it the whole opposable thumb thing? Tools? Fire? The wheel? The premiere of "American Idol"? The fact is, all of it is natural, just not "woodsy" like wildlife lovers would like you to believe everything should be.

      But back to Mars; Sure, there might be something we could do with the soil on Mars that we can't get back if we make it habitable. On the flip side of that, what good is it if we really can't get to it for any meaningful amount of time?

      There's a balance between preserving samples so that they can be observed, and entering the environment and effecting it so that one can utilize the resources.

      Fact is there's going to be a balance... we're going to try things, and we'll not always be right, but we'll make progress and learn, and the "naturalist" will tell you it's never time to move forward. The guys at NASA aren't stupid, there will be alot of baby steps and testing before they decide to try anything.

      --

      There's nothing Intelligent about Intelligent Design.
    9. Re:No ! by 1u3hr · · Score: 5, Insightful
      It's a virgin soil and it has to remain so : we have to much to learn about it instead of polluting it

      Insightful?

      Terraforming Mars at the most optimistic will take centuries. During those centuries we'll have plenty of time to study Mars before there is any noticeable change. I submit that creating an ecosystem on a sterile planet, or one that harbours no multi-cellular life, as seems probable, is not polluting. In this case, the greenhouse would be literal: creating a warm hospitable environment to encourage life.

    10. Re:No ! by ChrisMaple · · Score: 2, Insightful

      We already know that we need to populate Mars, the sooner the better, as protection against a meteor strike wiping out humanity. There are plenty of other places to do research.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    11. Re:No ! by blamanj · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Island?

      Several thousand years ago, when the last ice had more of the ocean's water locked up in glaciers, North America and Asia were connected. That is how the first people got here...by walking.

      It was only after the ice melted and the sea level rose that it required boats.

    12. Re:No ! by NanoGator · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "It's a virgin soil and it has to remain so : we have to much to learn about it instead of polluting it : When Mankind can prove it can live in equilibrium oni Earth, then it can spread elsewhere."

      Who's to say that (evolution --or-- our maker, depending on your beliefs) didn't intend for us to do exactly that? I mean, think about it: While we're stuck on Earth, we are one nuclear war or asteroidal impact away from extinction. How do we know that we weren't (made --or-- evolved) for the purpose of having the intelligence we needed to eventually spread our civilization out to other planets? I mean, if we lived in equilibrium, why would we ever leave the planet? If we leave the planet, we could spread our influence out in a few directions, and possibly even exist to the end of time.

      You've gotta think about the bigger picture, here. You cannot assume we have an infinite time available on Earth to do our basic living.

      --
      "Derp de derp."
    13. Re:No ! by j-turkey · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Who's to say that (evolution --or-- our maker, depending on your beliefs) didn't intend for us to do exactly that?

      Or, for that matter...who is to say that we even have a purpose?

      --

      -Turkey

    14. Re:No ! by prgrmr · · Score: 2, Interesting

      We have no way of telling that a massive release of gas on Mars would not eventually come back to haunt us here on Earth.

      For what value of "massive" are you referring? The Sun produces "massive" releases of gas and plasma constantly. Anything we do on Mars is going to be so much less energetic that it's ridiculous to consider as a possible threat to Earth.

    15. Re:No ! by DrXym · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Who's jumping the gun? All I'm objecting to someone's the knee jerk reaction to any terraforming on the rather lame premise that Mars is "virgin soil".


      Any attempt to warm the planet would have to be preceded by dozens of missions and meticulous research and preparation before anyone had any clue whether it would be a worthwhile undertaking. Any biological or geological evidence would surely form part of that evaluation.


      My personal feeling is that it would not be worthwhile to warm Mars for hundreds of years. What's the point if there is noone living there? Let's see some people actually set foot on the surface and do the research. Let's see colonization happen with people living under plastic domes. Then we'd be in a much better position to evaluate the relative merits of warming the entire planet.

    16. Re:No ! by Photon+Ghoul · · Score: 2, Funny

      But then we'll just get cancelled.

    17. Re:No ! by wass · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Well, you do not know if there's life unless and until you do research. What if you jump the gun and change Mars before you complete all research?

      Did you at least read the article? The slashdot writeup was sensationally misleading, as usual. Actually, here's some more info on the project, more than is in the Guardian link.

      Basically, it is NOT a proposal to warm Mars, it's a study exploring various ways that Mars COULD be heated, and how long such methods would take (conducted by an undergrad student at U. Mass). And they even acknowledge in that link that it would be significantly well into the future before any decision would every be implemented to try warming Mars, and at that point the method of using PFC's would probably be archaic compared to future technology.

      So keep your pantyhose on, NASA isn't trying to warm Mars, it's just a study. And in all likelihood it was an offshoot of various studies of global warming on Earth, in which case doing more planetary models of effects of PFCs, among others, would be a good thing!

      --

      make world, not war

    18. Re:No ! by Racter · · Score: 2, Funny

      Ann? Ann Clayborne? I know it's you!

    19. Re:No ! by rednip · · Score: 2, Insightful
      This comment sounds very "insightful", but so does alot of philosophy. Real life progress is never as cut and dry, and if this thinking had its way, we'd never get anything done.
      The very same can be applied to your comments themselves. I'll agree that in the larger sense we are 'natural', perhaps more correctly, 'acting in our nature', but the fact is - the Earth has been around for a long time before us, and will be here a long time after us. If we as a species what to exist for any long length of time we need to keep it in much the same way as it existed as we developed. Sure the world seems to do ok without the Dodo, and perhaps the balance of our existance doesn't hang on the existance of the spotted owl, but the more that we change things the harder we'll have living on this planet. Unless we really screw up things, the Earth will be here when our Sun goes out, but will humanity. The good thing about our nature is that we can make choices based on intellegent rational descisions, the trouble is that have those choices, and we need make sure that our logic is geared to existance of mankind, not of our (your) every creature comfort.
      --
      The force that blew the Big Bang continues to accelerate.
    20. Re:No ! by Obfuscant · · Score: 2, Insightful
      "It's a virgin soil and it has to remain so : we have to much to learn about it instead of polluting it : When Mankind can prove it can live in equilibrium oni Earth, then it can spread elsewhere."

      Who's to say that (evolution --or-- our maker, depending on your beliefs) didn't intend for us to do exactly that?

      More importantly, who's to say that the condition it is in RIGHT NOW is the one, true condition that it must remain in for the remainder of our existance?

      People in general have this really silly notion that the way they see something today is 1) the way it has always been, 2) the way it always must be, and 3) the right way for things to be.

      Example 1: coast of Oregon. There's a wonderful spit of sand on the ocean side of a river bay. The spit came into existance when the river mouth moved north. Rich people have built million dollar homes on that spit. It wasn't there 40 years ago; there is a really good chance that the river will wash it away again in another 40 years -- but the people who own homes there think "this is the way it MUST be" and will expect taxpayers to help protect them.

      Example 2: images from Mars show large areas where it looks like flowing water has eroded the surface. There is no flowing water today. Is "flowing water" the "right" condition and today's arrid nature an anomaly, or is the arrid nature the "right" condition and flowing water the anomaly?

      Consider that the attempt at terraforming will yield interesting and novel scientific results that may be directly applicable to the Earth, and it becomes a no-brainer. That it might convert Mars BACK to something it once was is just a beneficial side-effect. At WORST, if everything goes horribly wrong ON MARS, the place will STILL be uninhabitable. "Can't live there now, can't live there then, but learned a lot in the process" is still a positive result.

  3. testing by kharchenko · · Score: 5, Funny

    Ohh, just a few more decades and we'll have a viable test bed right here on earth.

  4. Original NASA Article from Feb/2001 with more info by Hulkster · · Score: 5, Informative
    Here's the original NASA article with a lot more details (no surprise!) than the Guardian ...

    BTW, Edgar Rice Burroughs would approve as the author of the John Carter of Mars series of books which talked about life on the Red Planet.

  5. Pipe Dream by stecoop · · Score: 4, Informative

    It's been speculated for many years to reproduce gas emissions on Mars as we do on this planet. The atmosphere was thicker on Mars then it is now; yet you have to go back to the problem that caused the atmosphere to thin in the first place. As it turns out, the core of the planet slowed down or event stop spinning causing the magnetic field to disappear.

    Unless the core spins to shield the planet from the solar winds then anything done will only be temporary. The sun will simply blow off any thick atmosphere. Alas a pipe dream to teraform the whole planet unless you take some ideas from the movie Space Balls.

    1. Re:Pipe Dream by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I guess thats why Venus' atmosphere is so tiny, its lack of magnetic field never allowed it to have one. Oh wait, it has an atmospheric pressure 90 times greater than Earth's, and all without a magnetic field.

    2. Re:Pipe Dream by Fr05t · · Score: 3, Funny

      Hey can't they just kick start the core with a big nuke? I'm sure I saw that in a documentary or a movie.

    3. Re:Pipe Dream by StarsAreAlsoFire · · Score: 2, Informative

      Surface gravity is also much higher.

    4. Re:Pipe Dream by stecoop · · Score: 4, Informative

      It is known that at one time Mars had a magnetic field somewhat equivalent to Earth. Mars had a thicker atmosphere but nothing compared to the atmosphere of Venus. When the core of both planets stopped spinning; the atmosphere of one was wiped away while the other wasn't.

      Now let me speculate that the atmosphere of Venus is thick enough on it's own to prevent the solar winds from wiping it off the face while Mars never had such a thick atmosphere. Mars had to have the protection of a magnetic field to have an atmosphere.

      Very good data about the fields were found on a quick search: I like these two
      http://www-ssc.igpp.ucla.edu/personnel/russel l/pap ers/venus_mag/
      http://www-ssc.igpp.ucla.edu/perso nnel/russell/pap ers/mars_mag/

    5. Re:Pipe Dream by roman_mir · · Score: 2, Informative

      It is not a very smart speculation.

      Venus Facts

      Earth Facts

      Mars Facts

      Simply by looking at the difference in diameters of the planets, you can see that Earth and Venus are very very close in diameter, while Mars is about half the diameter of either of these planets. That is the main contributor to the loss of any atmosphere (if it existed on the first place.) To hold an atmosphere, a planet needs to be of a certain mass (size,) so that the escape velocity of the planet is greater than the velocity of gas molecules.

      For example it is known that there is no pure hydrogen or helium in our atmosphere because the velocities of the molecules of those gasses are too high, higher than the Earth escape velocity and so these gasses simply 'evaporate' into space from our planet.

      The same applies to other gasses, on smaller planets, like most gasses on Mars. The atmosphere on a smaller planet will be much thinner and will consist of much fewer gas types.

    6. Re:Pipe Dream by Pinkfud · · Score: 2, Insightful
      This is an argument of apples and oranges. Venus has a thick atmosphere because said atmosphere is sulphur dioxide and other easily ionized gases. Those gases are so ionized from the solar radiation that they act as if there was a magnetic field. The solar radiation itself stops the solar wind from taking the gases away.

      Mars has an atmosphere of carbon dioxide because that gas, too, is easily ionized. Nitrogen and oxygen, on the other hand, will leave without the magnetic field. The magnetic field argument is valid.

      I'm in favor of trying the experiment. We need to learn how to modify the climate of a planet so we have some chance of fixing what we've done to Earth. Eventually we're going to have a price to pay for our actions, and we need to be ready to do that. Mars could teach us how, and right now it's worthless for anything else.

      --
      The world is my oyster. That's why it's always in a stew.
  6. Smokers? by Shadow+Wrought · · Score: 4, Funny

    Maybe we could ship all of them to Mars? Well worth the cost if you ask me.

    --
    If brevity is the soul of wit, then how does one explain Twitter?
  7. College guys, beer, nachos and cheese... by Zondar · · Score: 3, Funny

    With all that methane being generated, it should warm the place up quickly

  8. Hmmm by Deekin_Scalesinger · · Score: 5, Insightful

    We can't seem to get our outdated shuttles off the ground safely, or keep a permanent space staion running effectively. Is now a good time to tinker with another planet's atmosphere?

    --
    "As the intrepid kobold companion continues his journey, he begins to wonder... if priests raises dead, why anybody die?
    1. Re:Hmmm by loucura! · · Score: 4, Funny

      Is now a good time to tinker with another planet's atmosphere?

      When isn't it a good time to tinker with another planet's atmosphere?

      --
      Black and grey are both shades of white.
    2. Re:Hmmm by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 5, Insightful
      "a Nasa scientist has proposed"
      "artificially created greenhouse gases could set the Martian climate simmering."
      "This would take hundreds or even thousands of years."

      Let's not get too carried away with the 'stupid idea' theme just yet. I don't think "now" is part of the equation.

    3. Re:Hmmm by hackstraw · · Score: 5, Funny

      We can't seem to get our outdated shuttles off the ground safely, or keep a permanent space staion running effectively. Is now a good time to tinker with another planet's atmosphere?

      But we are already good at fucking up planets!

  9. safety? by Prophet+of+Nixon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Its likely already a dead planet... we can use it to test these new processes. What's the worst that can happen? It gets deader? Can't prove any method that complex without actual trials, I would think.

    1. Re:safety? by khallow · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Well, it wouldn't be easy, but if we somehow affected Mars' orbit, we could end up indirectly affecting Earth's orbit, which could make global warming look like a minor inconvenience as we move closer to or further away from the Sun...

      And how would we change Mars' orbit? Heating up the atmosphere of Mars is inconsequential to the amount of energy required to significantly perturb the orbit of a planet.

    2. Re:safety? by alienmole · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well, remember that NASA is likely to be involved here. A little confusion between megatons and gigatons, and blammo, Mars could be propelled inwards towards Earth's orbit.

    3. Re:safety? by Handpaper · · Score: 2, Informative
      If this were the case, Mars and Earth's orbits would affect each other now.
      Mars has 1.86E32 J of KE. Altering that KE is the only way of changing it's orbit. Assuming we wish to change it's velocity by 1%, we would need 1.86E30 J of energy to do so. This equates to 3.9E17 metric tons of TNT.
      On October 30, 1961, Soviet physicists detonated a 50-megaton bomb, which remains unsurpassed in terms of its yield. You would need 8.9E12 of these bombs to produce that '1%' effect, and that's assuming perfect efficiency in converting explosive energy to orbital velocity.

      The Earth's average distance from the Sun is governed by it's orbital velocity and nothing else, for the same reason that the period of a pendulum depends soley upon it's length and the prevailing gravitational field, it's mass having no relevance.

      Short answer - We couldn't affect the orbit of Mars, and it would have no effect on that of Earth if we could.

    4. Re:safety? by Pedrito · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Its likely already a dead planet... we can use it to test these new processes. What's the worst that can happen? It gets deader?

      Do you have proof that it's dead? Last I heard, the jury is still out on whether it's a "dead" planet. The fact is that there's still a pretty reasonable possibility of microbial life on Mars. We've already managed to make a number of species on this planet extinct. So what, we should just start doing it willy nilly wherever we want?

      I know, microbes, big deal. But the fact remains that finding microbial life in our solar system and being able to examine it can give us a great deal of information about how life started here on Earth and even give us an idea for how feasible life is elsewhere in the galaxy and universe.

      Personally, I'd like to wait until we're pretty damn positive that Mars is dead before we go screwing with its atmosphere. Or at the very lease, collected samples of whatever variety of microbial life it may harbor. Not to mention, it doesn't do anything for us to create a thicker atmosphere without a magnetic field. It'll just be a warmer deadly place.

  10. Sims and testing? by nizo · · Score: 3, Funny
    I wonder how much simulation and testing you need before we feel safe about affecting an entire planet."

    Apparently none, since we are modifying the earth in bad ways every day. Having another planet we can live on sounds like a great idea to me, since this one is becoming less habitable every day.

  11. No life on Mars? by Chess_the_cat · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I guess NASA's scienticians have determined there is no life on Mars then? I can't see them killing Martian bacteria just for a little elbow room.

    --
    Support the First Amendment. Read at -1
    1. Re:No life on Mars? by Lord+Ender · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Humanity doesn't need to spread to other planets for "elbow room." It needs to spread for the survival of the human race! There is no more important goal in the history humanity than to establish itself on other planets. For all we know, if we don't get off of Earth. life itself may vanish throughout the universe.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
  12. Pop science. by Saven+Marek · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's still debatable whether or not global warming can even happen with the amount of gas we are putting into the air.

    And so how would you expect that to make any difference on mars? You would be have to be sure of the results to start. Until we know we are global warming here I say we hold off and not try experiments over a whole planet.

  13. Don't send anyone down the derelict spacecraft! by csoto · · Score: 5, Funny

    And if anybody comes back with a big spidery thing attached to their faces, for ged's sake, DO NOT LET THEM INTO THE HABITAT!

    --
    There exists no way of exchanging information without making judgments. --Bene Gesserit Axiom
  14. Stupidest thing ever by Mark_MF-WN · · Score: 3, Interesting
    This is the stupidest thing I've heard. And from a NASA scientist no less.

    Where the hell are we supposed to get that much of ANY gas?

    How are we supposed to get it to stay there on Mars? If Mars could successfully hold an atmosphere, wouldn't it still have one? I was under the impression that Mars' low gravity and weak magnetic field allowed radiation to strip away any gases on Mars' surface.

    1. Re:Stupidest thing ever by jerometremblay · · Score: 4, Informative

      Where the hell are we supposed to get that much of ANY gas?

      From the article in the New Scientist: "The study found four fluorine-based gases that could be made of elements abundant on the Martian surface."

    2. Re:Stupidest thing ever by joeljkp · · Score: 2, Funny

      Once again, someone avoids admitting his ignorance by lashing out at someone else.

      Go call up Chris McKay at NASA and tell him your feelings about his project. My prediction is that he'll say something other than "Oh my gosh! You're right! I'll begin a more realistic project immediately!"

      --
      WeRelate.org - wiki-based genealogy
    3. Re:Stupidest thing ever by helioquake · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Crazy and pointless, maybe ,but not stupid.

      All the key ingredients for the warming media (Fluorine based gas, according to the article) exists on Mars.

      And yes, the warming agent will evaporate away in a long run. As Martian air warms it up, the rate of the evaporation would increase. This is easy to understand if you know Maxwellian distribution. If not, look it up. Basically each particles in the gas at a certain temperature doesn't all have the same kinetic energy (== mean speed); some particles have slower than the average speed, while others move much faster. And those particles that are moving faster -- especially faster than the escape velocity of Mars -- have a chance to escape (i.e., evaporate out).

      But for those heavy molecular compound, the timescale of evaporation is long, and the article implies that the scale time is about 2 billion years.

      It's not hard to derive these conclusions by reading the article. The Gurdian is generally better at it than any other news source in the U.S.

    4. Re:Stupidest thing ever by Dipster · · Score: 5, Interesting
      Mars' gravity is perfectly capable of holding a thick atmoshpere. If you look at Venus, who's gravity is something like 98% of Earth's, it has an atmosphere 100 times thicker than ours. The thickness is determined by a lot of factors, but gravity is a relitivaly small one.

      The magnetic field argument is a strong one. Its the only thing that protects the atmosphere from being blown away. However, another theory on why Mars lost its atmosphere is the following:

      As rain falls through the atmosphere, CO2 dissolves in it. When this rain water hits the ground, the CO2 reacts with Calcium and others to form limestone. On earth, this limestone is eventually recycled through our tectonic processes and released in volcanos/other release points (this being part of the global warming argument that something like 70% of earths CO2 is released by volcanos and is outside our control).

      However, on Mars, any tectonic activity has stopped, and as such, this limestone never gets put back into the atmosphere. It's ironic that the water itself eliminated the gas it needed to exist.

      One could say its a little of both. When tectonic processes stopped, CO2 stopped being recycled leading to a slightly thinner and much colder atmosphere, at the same time that the magnetic field dissappeared and the remainder of the atmospere was blown away.

    5. Re:Stupidest thing ever by govtcheez · · Score: 2, Funny

      I picture an enormous d20 crashing to the Martian surface and someone at NASA ominously saying "You've just failed your saving throw versus PROGRESS."

  15. Planetary Engineering Bibliography by IO+ERROR · · Score: 4, Interesting

    http://spot.colorado.edu/~marscase/cfm/terrabib.ht ml contains references to nearly 100 books, articles, papers, etc., on terraforming.

    --
    How am I supposed to fit a pithy, relevant quote into 120 characters?
  16. What's new? by BaseLineNL · · Score: 2, Funny

    I wonder how much simulation and testing you need before we feel safe about affecting an entire planet. We've been affecting Earth for quite some time. Hell, we're experts in global warming. Bring on Mars!

  17. Let's outsource Global Warming! by flibuste · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Excellent!

    We cannot control the effects and cost of global warming on our own planet, so let's try it somewhere else and in the long run, reduce costs for earth inhabitants.

    Fortunately enough, nobody yet figured out how to make PROFIT with this

  18. global warming by erturs · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I wonder how much simulation and testing you need before we feel safe about affecting an entire planet.

    None, apparently, if you're one of those who thinks that the uncertain economic effects of the Kyoto accord are more significant than the uncertain environmental effects of dumping more greenhouse gases into the atmosphere.

    Or does conservation only apply to other planets?

  19. old news? or no news? by -O.ster_66 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    "They found that a gas called octafluoropropane could begin a process of global warming on Mars."

    "This would take hundreds or even thousands of years. But since the raw materials already exist there, some future space mission could start to turn up the heat in a world frozen for at least 2bn years."

    is this a native gas? how would they activate it?

    --
    "You get all the fun of sitting still, being quiet, writing down numbers, paying attention...science has it all."
  20. time scale by kippy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Unless the core spins to shield the planet from the solar winds then anything done will only be temporary. The sun will simply blow off any thick atmosphere.

    If you're willing to wait a few million years, sure.

  21. Also in the New Scientist by jerometremblay · · Score: 2, Informative

    The New Scientist also has an article on the subject.

  22. Is there enough gravity? by nasor · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Isn't the gravity on Mars only something like 1/3 that of earth? Is that enough to support a breathable atmosphere? Our air here on earth is 21% oxygen, so to obtain the same partial pressure I assume we would need something like a 60% oxygen atmosphere. Wouldn't everything (including us?) be really dangerously flammable?

  23. Sorry, it won't work. by brewer13210 · · Score: 2, Funny

    It's a nice idea, but it just won't work. According to the Bush administration, there is no such thing as global warming, thus we would be unable to raise the temps on Mars. ;-)

    Todd

    1. Re:Sorry, it won't work. by fab13n · · Score: 2, Insightful
      It depends, I bet WMD could cause global warming, and they're planning to find some Real Soon Now (tm) in the middle East.

      I mean, they have to find them, they've spent $80,000,000,000 extra taxpayers money on that, more than 1000 US lives (roughly worth one extra WTC tower I guess), a top-secret number of 100,000s Iraqi lives, the US's international reputation, and they've been reelected : it must mean they've been somewhat successful, right?

  24. babysteps first guys... by WiFireWire · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Why is NASA so gung-ho about going to mars so quickly? Why not return to the moon so we can learn how to sustain our peeps closer to home?

    1. Re:babysteps first guys... by NardofDoom · · Score: 2, Informative
      The moon is considerably harder to survive on than Mars. There's no atmosphere, sketchy evidence of water, and (unless you go polar) 14 days of darkness, which I've heard plants don't like too much.

      Mars, on the other hand, has an atmosphere that can block most of the bad radiation, frozen water on the surface that we can harvest, and about a 24-hour sol. Heck, the atmosphere is almost pure CO2, which plants grow very well in. And there have been successful experiments in growing plants in Martian soil in the Martian atmosphere, but at terrestrial pressures and temperatures.

      --
      You have two hands and one brain, so always code twice as much as you think!
  25. cool lets do it! by brainburger · · Score: 2, Funny

    Last one to open a burger restaurant on Mars is a sissy!

  26. Simulation and Testing? by JudgeFurious · · Score: 2, Insightful


    Somehow I suspect that whether it's right or wrong we'll feel just fine about affecting an entire planet with a minimum amount of "simulation and testing". We haven't been shy about affecting the one we live on so what makes anyone think we'll hesitate to start monkeying around with another one.

    --
    Appended to the end of comments you post. 120 chars.
  27. Genesis anyone? by freddyfred89 · · Score: 3, Funny

    I sure hope Khan doesn't find out about this plan. Although, maybe if he does, we can send the dead scripts from Enterprise to the budding planet and resurrect a franchise ...

  28. Titanic Hubris by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This is totally irresponsible work by NASA. Climate scientists should know better than anyone the lesson of our imminent climate change crisis. Human meddling with astoundingly complex systems like planetary climate is arrogant well beyond our competence, and predictable only by the law of unintended consequences. Screwing with Mars' atmosphere when we're just beginning to admit that we've already screwed up ours will nearly certainly make that planet harder to "manage" as it becomes more necessary to our human evolution. Humans thrive only in a very narrow band of climate parameters, out of a vast range of possible climates. When they spend a century shifting Mars unexpectedly into a less mutable climate stasis, that is just as inhospitable to human life as it is now, but a different configuration, it will take even more centuries to undo the damage, if even possible. We're just not ready for this kind of work, if we ever will be in the foreseeable future - and the stakes are too high to fool with.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

  29. Why would it work this time? by GaepysPike · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This post is definitely meant as more of a question than a statement, as I am pretty ignorant of geophysics and the like.

    But could someone explain to me why scientists even consider the idea of trying to artificially create a new atmosphere around another planet, and why they think it could work?

    The thing I am not understanding is that if Mars is thought/known to have had an atmosphere in the past, and doesn't anymore, clearly there are factors beyond our control that would just cause a new atmosphere to eventually disppear too, right?

    The original atmosphere on Mars must have disappeared due to factors such as boiling away, not enough mass to create a strong enough gravitation field to retain it, or perhaps being blown away by solar wind because Mars does have a magnetic field like we do here to deflect it, etc. (By the way, I don't even know if these are real situations that could occur, I am just making them up as examples of things beyond our control that seem to me that logically could maybe have caused the previous atmosphere to disappear.)

    So again, this is not a statement but an honest question from someone who doesn't get it- what is different about mars now than a hundred million years ago that makes scientists think it would work now?

    --
    4 out of 3 people have trouble with fractions
  30. Green Mars... by MadMorf · · Score: 4, Informative

    A Kim Stanley Robinson (SF writer) short story which he later expanded into 3 novels (Red/Green/Blue Mars).

    Covers this is a believeable and seemingly plausible way...

    One of my all-time favorite SF series, right next to the Gap Cycle by Stephen R. Donaldson and the original Foundation Trilogy by Isaac Asimov.

  31. Yes! Kuato says so! by momus_radar · · Score: 5, Funny
    Please. Everyone knows Cohaagen doesn't want the reactor turned on because he's in the business of selling air.

    --
    Get your Ass to Mars!

    1. Re:Yes! Kuato says so! by DudemanX · · Score: 2, Funny

      "These people need air!"

      Heh... Sounds like it could be Arnold's campaign slogan for governor of Mars.

  32. Solar output is better correlated with temperature by tjic · · Score: 2, Insightful
    You can believe what you hear on from Pop science places like FoxNews, but there is a dramatic change going on and CO2 is the only explanation that's been found to fit.

    You're speaking in ignorance.

    Solar output correlates better with global climate change than does CO2.

    Do a little googling. One example: stanford.edu

    Don't bother giving my what ever phony story you have. I've heard them all and I've seen the real data.

    Translation: poster's belief is not scientific and fact-based, but ideological and faith-based, therefore additional facts will NOT be considered. Any data that disagrees with poster's preformulated conslusions will be denied as a Papist Plot ...er.... anti-Muslism heresy ...wait... Communist propaganda...got it! ... "right wing lies".

    So, Anonymous Coward, if you've seen all the "real data", please give your cutting one sentence rebuttal of the Stanford reference above.

  33. Yes! by RovingSlug · · Score: 5, Insightful
    There are plenty of other rocks ("virgin soil") to study in the solar system. This is a unique opportunity to advance science by actively terraforming Mars. We might also learn techniques to keep Earth habitable as it inevitably moves to a period with significantly less climate stablility -- it's done it before and it's about to (geologically speaking) do it again.

    When Mankind can prove it can live in equilibrium oni Earth, then it can spread elsewhere.

    Huh? That's suicidal. How about: until we prove we can live in equilibrium on a planet, we must spread elsewhere.

    By the way, living on a planet for geolocially long periods of time will require geologic action, not misguided, pristine inaction.

  34. Explain to me by jerometremblay · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Explain to me how STUDIES are irresponsible? It's not like they are on their way right now with their greenhouse gas factories.

    What is irresponsible is not to think about it until it's too late.

  35. yeah, don't want to mess Mars up! by Richthofen80 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I wonder how much simulation and testing you need before we feel safe about affecting an entire planet.

    Yeah, because if we screw it up, we might turns mars into an inhospitable desert!

    Oh wait.

    --
    Reason, free market capitalism, and individualism
  36. So much for the Prime Directive by Anita+Coney · · Score: 2, Insightful

    But then again, our prime directive is profit at any cost.

    --
    If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
    1. Re:So much for the Prime Directive by voisine · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Uhh... profit at any cost is a contradiction in terms. Our prime directive is profit, yes. And that's a good thing. Profit means generating more money than you use. Money is a representation of value. You produce something of value to others and they give you a representation of value in exchange for it. Profit is simply creating more value than you use. What we need to fix is not the profit motive. We need to make sure that no one is commiting fraud or pushing their costs onto others against their will so that true costs are reflected in market prices.

  37. Terraforming, huh? by John_Booty · · Score: 4, Funny

    I wonder how much simulation and testing you need before we feel safe about affecting an entire planet

    It's funny how they're talking about radically changing another world but thing that astonished me the most was the proper use of "affected" instead of "effected" in a Slashdot post.

    --

    OtakuBooty.com: Smart, funny, sexy nerds.
  38. what about global cooling... by circletimessquare · · Score: 2, Insightful

    on venus?

    i'm not joking, it seems to me that it would be energetically MORE feasible to cool things down in venus's atmosphere than it would be to heat things up in mars, and probably take less time too

    to heat mars up, you would need a significantly denser atmosphere... where is that coming from?

    while on venus, you just need to precipitate certain things out of the already dense atmosphere

    it is easier to remove something already there than to introduce something that isn't there

    of course, cooling down venus or heating up mars are both huge undertakings

    it just seems to me that the thermodynamics of cooling down venus presents an easier challenge in comparison

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:what about global cooling... by RsG · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well the problem with that is that Venus's atmosphere is incredibly dense. If we could reduce that density to something aproximating terrestrial norms, then the heat on the surface would likely be a none issue (it would still be warmer than earth, but only due to solar proximity, not insulation).

      However, I cannot for the life of me think of a feasible way to get rid of most of a planets atmosphere. You would need to move the gas offworld, or find some way to eliminate it. Somehow I doubt that pumping it into tanks and lauching them into the sun would work terribly well. If we put a black hole in orbit maybe...

      --
      Erotic is when you use a feather. Exotic is when you use the whole chicken.
  39. Re:Original NASA Article from Feb/2001 with more i by Rei · · Score: 3, Interesting

    A much more difficult task than terraforming Mars, conceptually, is terraforming Venus.

    Sci-fi authors have often implemented plot devices such as impacting ice-laden comets or moons into Venus to cool it, supply water, and spin it up; however this is fundamentally flawed, as the problem the amount of CO2. Furthermore, impacting a comet or moon will impart more energy than it would soak up. Now, perhaps with a large enough impact you could blast away part of Venus's atmosphere; however, this would need to be a very significant impact. Hypothetically, a large near-impacting body that skims Venus's atmosphere repeatedly might be able to take some atmosphere with it on each pass; however, it seems unlikely that you could ablate enough atmosphere in this manner while using a body small enough to control.

    Sagan proposed the use of microbes in the atmosphere to absorb the CO2 and precipitate it out, but this suffers from one big fundamental problem: life as we know it requires CHONP, and there's no significant quantities of phosphorus in Venus's atmosphere. Perhaps a simpler form of "life" or nanomachine - even if not self-replicating, but simply mass produced on Earth - could use solar energy to convert CO2 to solid compounds.

    In theory, if Venus could be driven into a very elliptical orbit (causing close passes to the sun), the sun would blow off most of its atmosphere. Or, if Venus could be given an extremely fast rate of rotation, the atmosphere could be made to expand to the point where the solar wind can blow it off easily. However, apart from the length of time for the sun to remove the atmosphere, both of these require imparting incredible amounts of energy to the planet.

    Another concept has been to use gigantic sunshades to block sunlight approaching the planet; however, planet-sized shades seem a bit far-fetched to build. An alternative that I've seen would be to use gigantic mirrors to focus solar energy on a small part of the upper atmosphere and use the light pressure to encourage particles to reach escape velocity; whether or not this is realistic, I don't know.

    --
    Dear Lord: One of your creatures may be hurt tonight. Please let it be the other creature.
  40. Mars problem by ehiris · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Wouldn't the gravitational spin of Mars which causes high temperature fluctuations be a big constraint? How would that be addressed?

  41. Feel safe? by crmartin · · Score: 3, Funny

    Uh, and the risk would be what? That Mars would become uninhabitable?

  42. YES by essreenim · · Score: 2, Funny
    YES, lets populate Mars with a race of obsessively compulsive people!

  43. Should be a raving success! by crivens · · Score: 4, Funny

    This should be a raving success. I mean, look at how successful we are at warming up the Earth!

    Troll? Hell yeah!

  44. Re:Ahem by Smidge204 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Since nobody owns Mars, and what happens on Mars has no bearing at all on what happens on Earth, then the people who have both the technology and the money to make it happen have the final say. Namely, NASA and ESA (and maybe China and India in the reasonably near future?)

    Even if the whole world was a democracy (which it's not), the world at large does not have the means to get there first and claim it... and the certaintly wouldn't contribute to the effort even if they did support it. So nyah nyah to them.
    =Smidge=

  45. Re:Tinkering by loucura! · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If we mess up, then we'll have learned a lesson which can be used next time. There's no way to learn how to go about messing with a planet's atmosphere without... messing with the atmosphere! Think ahead: If we can't live there when we need it, we can always mine it for resources.

    --
    Black and grey are both shades of white.
  46. Re:Alot of difference by DrXym · · Score: 2, Insightful
    It might take thousands of years to undo that kind of damage.

    Is that your best reason, that it might go wrong?

    Sorry but that's dumb. Everything might go wrong. Your house might burn to the ground because of an electrical fault. Does that mean you shouldn't use electricity or that you try to minimise the risk through safety standards and certification? You might hit a wall in your car. Does that mean you don't ride in a vehicle or that you should learn to drive properly and buy a car with various safety features? You might get attacked by a dog (while walking). Does that mean we should kill all dogs or enact laws that make owners responsible for their animals? Your computer might be compromised and be used to store kiddy porn. Does that mean you should unplug all the jacks from the wall and lock the PC in a metal box, or does it mean you should be diligent and use appropriate firewall / antivirus software?

    I'm not advocating any crazy experiment on Mars - but if there is a carefully reached and reasonable expectation that something will work and the rewards outweigh the risks, then it should be taken. The alternative is for mankind to collectively cower under the table waiting for the next global catastrophe to wipe us all out.

    Besides, who knows what kind of fossel record would be being destroyed by exposing the planet to natural weather forces again.

    Yeah right. But to apply your own risk aversion argument, how would we ever know about the "fossel" record? After all, there is a very real chance of mission failure when going to Mars. How can we possibly send people or robots to Mars if the probe could blow up? The same goes for any other human endeavour past, present or future.

    Hanging around for something - anything - to be 100% certain (except death & tax) is to piss away any future that humanity might have at all.

  47. Re:The Earth IS at Equilibrium by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There is no life-ending catastrophe even on the most distant horizon.

    Well that's clearly false, for a start. What about the death of the sun? Or of the universe?

    More importantly, what about the uncertainties? Like nuclear war? Worldwide plague? Asteroid strike?

    The fact is, Earth is a single point of failure for the human race, and we can't predict when it will fail or what will cause the failure. The only safe solution is redundancy. Terraforming Mars is the only remotely feasible option in the near future.

  48. Manifest Destiny by drwho · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Of course this is going to raise the pro- vs. anti-development arguments to try to claim we should do such-and-such for the good of mankind and animals and plants and life, or not do it.

    But, like genetic engineering, it is inevitable: humans will become increasingly engineered on the genetic level, that the living space of man will expand to every corner of the earth and beyond..this is our destiny.

    But politics will control WHICH humans will do it, who will be the perfect beings, who will conquer Mars, and at what point will a war with Earth break out?

    Being anti-genetic engineering or anti-Mars-colonization is like being anti-gun or anti-drug: forces bound to lose because of the great advantages that a sole user of the technology will have, and their power as a group will be unstoppable, whether they are an organized force or not.

    I'd really like to expound on this and probably correct some of my wording, but Slashdot isn't generally a place for well-though-out arguments.

  49. Re:Wouldn't it be funny... by raju1kabir · · Score: 4, Funny
    I'll laugh my ass off if we try everything we can to warm Mars up and it all fails, proving that our arrogant belief that we can really fuck the Earth up beyond its ability to flush us off its surface and recover, bringing rise to a much more humble species that doesn't try shit like that or think that it can, is flat-out wrong.

    I'd settle for replacement by a species that can draft coherent sentences.

    --
    "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
  50. interesting by essreenim · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Thats a very good point for another reason. We have shown in the past that we are likely to destroy ourselves. Every major empire on Earth has always collapsed in the end and slowed down technological development with it. But we can break out of that loop if we spread to other "rocks". Say we populate Mars and Venus. With Venus, the atmosphere is a runaway greenhouse effect so we would have to stip allot of the atmostphere off by diverting huge asteroids into it's atmosphere's path. once we have spread to half the solar system we can undergo a prolonged campaign of removing technology and going back to nature and paganism. Then we can start from scratch from our ignorance as we will not have been corrupted. Then some day Venusians s of the future will invest huge amounts of money on exploring "this Earth" because it supports life and they will discover that although there is evidence of an advanced civilisation there, it is only now populated by animals and they are in fact the decendants of Earth. Then they will send missions to Mars and find the Marsians are in fact decendants of Earth too but they have not developed technologically as well as the Venusians ( the low gravity has got to their head!!)

    1. Re:interesting by Metasquares · · Score: 2, Informative

      Even if Venus were somehow cooled, the magnetic field of the planet is not strong enough to protect us from solar radiation. The rotation of the planet would have to be sped up as well.

      Also, diverting big asteroids into a planet may have some bad effects on the planet's orbit. We probably don't want that.

      Mars is a better candidate.

    2. Re:interesting by dgatwood · · Score: 2, Interesting
      It shouldn't be that hard. The core of Mars is thought to be liquid iron. The problem is that liquid iron doesn't hold a magnetic field. What we need to do is thermal ducting. Release enough core heat that the center will solidify, all the while heating the surface enough to sustain life.

      The problem is that with our luck, the center wouldn't cool, but rather the outer portions of the core would cool, and eventually we'd end up with a tectonically dead planet, which is probably not what you want... but we'd have centuries to solve that little problem....

      Alternately we could move our power plants to Mars, use a directed EM field to send the power back to collection stations in orbit around Earth, and allow some of the waste EM to magnetize the iron in the soil on Mars.... Maybe. I'd hate to think about the safety concerns on that one, though.... :-)

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  51. Re:The Earth IS at Equilibrium by ObiWanKenblowme · · Score: 2, Funny

    Anyone else see the irony in someone with the name "ArthurDent" saying that the Earth is not in imminent danger of destruction?

    Forget global warning for a minute, earthman, and consider a meteor the size of Texas slamming into us at a few million miles per hour. The effects of that would be, in a word, bad.

    --
    Obvious exits are NORTH, SOUTH, and DENNIS.
  52. Backhanded political statement by fishbowl · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Nobody is really going to terraform Mars with greenhouse gases. But if you get people to accept the argument that greenhouse gases can cause global climate change, you win the political argument that it can, or does happen here. It forces the question quite handily.

    --
    -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
  53. Links to better articles by FleaPlus · · Score: 5, Informative

    As seems to be increasingly the case, I already submitted (rejected) variants of this story twice over the past week. I've pasted one of those variants below, which has links to sources far more information than the freakin' Guardian:

    Greenhouse gases could breathe life into Mars

    MSNBC, New Scientist and PhysOrg report on research by Margarita Marinova and others on using synthetic greenhouse gases to warm the Martian atmosphere and create the conditions for life to thrive. The study focused on fluorine-based gases (dubbed "super-greenhouse gases"), which would be non-toxic, nearly 10,000 times as effective at capturing heat as CO2, and could be made from Martian resources. The research concluded that adding 300 parts per million of these gases would lead to a feedback effect by unfreezing CO2 and water on the surface. According to Marinova, 'Since warming Mars effectively reverts it to its past, more habitable state, this would give any possibly dormant life on Mars the chance to be revived and develop further.' The feasibility and consequences of such terraforming have been debated in the past.


    Also, note that contrary to the accepted submission's title, NASA hasn't done any sort of proposal of actually doing this. This is simply cool research exploring a very interesting "What-if".

  54. Re:Bad idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    "Bossting CO2 emmissions on another planet - gee, how the hell are we gonna pull that one off"

    I have a '73 Buick I think could do it.

  55. The real cause: insufficient mass (of Mars) by macklin01 · · Score: 5, Informative

    At a given temperature, a gas has a certain pressure and root mean speed (norm of velocity from its kinetic energy). (A bit of calculation can show it to be (3kT/m)^(1/2), where k is Boltzmann's constant, T is temp in Kelvin, and m the gas molecule's mass.)

    If the root mean square of the gas is comparable to the escape velocity (2GM/R)^(1/2), the the majority of the gas will only stick around for a few days (if v_{esc} / v_{rms} is around 1), or maybe a few years. In fact, for the majority of the gas to be retained by the planet for several billion years, we need v_{esc} / v_{rms} around 10 or more.

    It turns out that v_{esc} / v_{rms} for Mars for most gases is too low. Water, ammonia, and methane, as well as helium and hydrogen are too light to be retained for long. (Although it turns out that water is just a bit too light, so it might stick around for thousands or millions or years.) However, it does appear oxygen, nitrogen, and carbon dioxide might be just heavy enough to be retained.

    This means that if there had ever been a significant amount of liquid water on Mars, it would not have stuck around long. CO2, and O2, on the other hand, have a shot. (So I guess we could design a breathable atmosphere, but water would be a problem.)

    Interestingly enough, these figures change (for the worse) if temperature increases on Mars (increases the kinetic energy of the gases), so making Mars more hospitable, temperature-wise, may make it less long-term hospitable, desirable molecule-wise.

    I got a lot of this info from my undergrad astronomy/astrophysics text: Introductory Astronomy and Astrophysics, 4th ed, by Zeilik and Gregory. -- Paul

    --
    OpenSource.MathCancer.org: open source comp bio
  56. 3. Things Wrong With This Story by reallocate · · Score: 2, Informative

    Here are some thing wrong with this story, and the way /. handled it:

    1. The notion of terraforming Mars isn't exactly new.

    2. This short and incomplete report would be comfortable in a tabloid, not in the broadsheet Guardian, a left-wing UK paper funded by a left-wing UK foundation to promote left-wing ideology. (Nothing wrong with being left-wing, or right-wing, but it helps to know who's paying for the news you're reading.)

    3. This is not a NASA proposal, as /. called it, or even a proposal by the scientists involved. It's a study; no one is proposing to terraform Mars.

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    -- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
  57. Re:The Earth IS at Equilibrium by GaepysPike · · Score: 2, Funny

    My guess is you're conservative because you'd rather save $5 today than avoid a possible global crisis. The narrow minded, poor planning, ethnocentric, pathetic administration is right up your alley.

    Sorry, but that pre-judgmental, unsubstantiated, conversationally shallow, narrow-minded, and just dead wrong comment, meant to do no more than enflame a meaningless confrontation... warrrants no further reponse than this.

    --
    4 out of 3 people have trouble with fractions
  58. Re:The Earth IS at Equilibrium by kamileon · · Score: 2, Insightful

    While I think you're off base on the global warming thing, there is a point in there that I think people ignore.

    Humans can, with a little enthusiasm, make the planet uninhabitable for themselves, via nuclear winter, global warming, etc, etc. However, making it uninhabitable for people and killing all life on the planet are two very different things. Even if we drastically change the environment, there are plenty of extremophilic life-forms that will simply expand out of their current niche, mutate, and re-fill the planet with life. Cockroaches, bacteria living near volcanic ocean floor vents... Life in general is resilient. You're probably not going to sterilize the planet, at worst you'll make it unlivable for people.

    --
    To truly understand recursion, you must first truly understand recursion.
  59. Join Now! by paranode · · Score: 2, Funny

    I am starting the People Unified to Stop Science In Extraterrestrial Settings. Join today to help us stop this senseless disregard for possible microbial life on Mars! Life is life and we must preserve it to the end!

  60. Hang on... one planet at a time... by spectecjr · · Score: 3, Funny

    We can make Mars like Earth when we're done making Earth like Venus.

    Let's try to focus here, people.

    --
    Coming soon - pyrogyra
  61. It's our planet. by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 2, Funny

    We found it. It didn't have anyone's name on it.

    --
    "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
    Never been known to fail..."
  62. Re:Bad idea by shokk · · Score: 3, Funny


    In other news, shares of automakers flew through the roof today as speculators pointed to the need for tens of millions of automobiles that will need to be left idling for a week to trigger this. Contruction on the 6-lane highway that the cars will be parked on has begun this week, complete with toll booths and signs for Jersey City exits.

    Scientists are positive that the past 100 years of atmospheric modeling on US roads has produced the most effective greenhouse booster possible.

    --
    "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."
  63. Re:Original NASA Article from Feb/2001 with more i by PMuse · · Score: 2, Interesting

    For an entertaining discussion of methods of terraforming Mars and the politics that go with them, see Red Mars (1992), Green Mars (1993) and Blue Mars (1996) Kim Stanley Robinson, which scored a Nebula and two Hugos.

    --
    "We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
  64. Re:Bad idea by jdray · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I've been reading something over at space.com today that's a panel discussion regarding terraforming Mars. Topics include could we, can we and should we?

    --
    The Spoon
    Updated 6/28/2011
  65. Gravity by PsiPsiStar · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I don't think mars has enough gravity to hold molecular oxygen.

    On a related note, the Earth doesn't have the gravity to hold Hydrogen or Helium. I've always imagined that the stuff probably boils off at a rate that varies with the amount of water in the upper atmosphere.

    And there seems to be a good amount of water entering due to mini comets (see Dr. Frankl's mini comet theory, which received support a few years back from some NASA studies. We may be constantly getting new water added, mostly to our upper atmosphere.) If some of this water were broken apart, with the Hydrogen escaping and the oxygen remaining, this would be another argument in favor of early earth having an oxidizing atmosphere, an issue currently under some debate.

    BTW, does anyone know if there any planets that actually have been confirmed to have a reducing atmosphere? Does Venus?

    --

    ___
    It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
  66. Re:Original NASA Article from Feb/2001 with more i by PsiPsiStar · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You're seriously scaring me.

    But here's somthing I've never quite understood. I can understand how eutrophic ponds become anoxic when you have a sudden die-off and decomposition. But with the ocean, the surface should remain oxygenated (since it has living plantlife) but the depths would be anoxic. You can only suck so much oxygen from the water. Not all the plantlife would decay since you can only take so much oxygen out of the water and most of the organic matter would be buried under sediment.

    The surface and depths should be separated by several thermoclines so the water won't mix like it would in a lake.

    And oceans don't 'turn over' the same way that lakes do (though they do cycle, but that happens slowly over several centuries). So would an algal bloom really cause anoxyic conditions in water that was several miles deep the same way that it would in a shallow pond?

    --

    ___
    It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
  67. Bring a big magnet too... by PhreakOfTime · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Ill admit, I didnt RTFA. But the general thing Im reading here is based on an AWEFUL lot of assumptions, most of which arent true.

    Terraforming another plante, sounds good on paper. But can we please pick a planet that is shielded from the solar wind so all the 'efforts' arent wasted away, or in this case blown away into outer space.

    Without an active magnetic field, the upper atmosphere of mars would be directly exposed to solar flares, radiation storms, etc. Which is why there is no atmosphere there now. Nothing to do with water on the surface, it just sublimates and gets ejected off the planet anyway if there was water.

    So until someone figures out a way to start a regenerating dynamo half the size of the planet mars INSIDE the planet mars, can we stop with the mental masturbation?

  68. Re:Bad idea by Alan+Partridge · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Well, as we've fucked up the Earth already, we'd better start terraforming Mars ASAP. If we're content to render hundreds of Earth species extinct, I don't see it makes sense to be precious about a few Martian bacteria.

    --
    That was classic intercourse!
  69. Duty. by J05H · · Score: 4, Insightful

    We, humans, are the first species on Earth capable of spreading our biosphere into space. It is not alarmist to say that continent and planet cleansing events happen on a periodic basis. The recent tsunami and asteroid 2004MN's ever-changing error ellipse are evidence of dynamic, destructive processes that affect both humanity and the larger biosphere. It is our duty, as the first space-goers, to create bio-redundancy, to explore and develop.

    A project as large as terraforming Mars (or an asteroid) by it's very nature will require massive biological systems for completion. I predict that living creatures will be adapted both to vaccuum and various atmospheres, if we don't find life already there - giant tree cities on comets, kelp ponds in Mars craters, post-human cyborgs, etc.

    Creating new biospheres and offworld industries will greatly improve both standards of living and our ecological footprint on Earth. Enough colonization will mean the ability to protect the home world better. Making Mars bloom is our duty and destiny.

    Support private spaceflight, it's the only way this can happen. And fire up the florine pumps. 8)

    Josh

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    gigantino.tv - Heavy but weighs nothing.
  70. Re:Point A to point B by confused+one · · Score: 2, Informative
    Why was this modded "Insightful"?

    The article states everything needed is available ON MARS. You'd send robotic factories to Mars to mine, process, and distribute the materials automatically. Nothing but the originial equipment would need to be sent. No chemicals would need be made here. No human interaction, except for some remote input, would be required.

  71. Why worry? There's no downside. by argent · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If you screw up and make Mars atmosphere unsuitable for life... well, damn, it already *is*, so what have you lost?

  72. Re:Could we increase the mass? by DonVictor · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The asteroid belt has a mass of about 1/10 earth. One alternative to dropping them directly on the surface, is that the asteroids could be accreted into a moon, perhaps using one of the existing moons as a starting point, or joining the existing moons together (by manipulating the velocities of the asteroids. The merged moons, plus asteroidal mass would form a large moon. Lunar tidal effects would heat the planet just as the lunar tides on earth cause friction and release some kinetic energy.

    This kinetic heating would be a slower effect, but would not have the "instant heat and violence" of just hitting Mt. Olympus with the rocks. Of course the difficulty level is still pegged at "essentially impossible".

    One approach to get this asteroid-pinball started would be to attach solar sails to asteroids -- a small CPU should be enough to control the sails to "brake" the asteroids and spiral their orbit toward mars. (But it would still take an enormous amount of time.)

    The results could also be split - use some asteroids to hammer the surface (for heat and to release gasses) and others for moon building.

  73. Better Idea by rhesuspieces00 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Launch a fresnel lens the size of Australia at the sun adjustable to keep its focus on the red planet. then videotape all the little green guys as they crawl out of the ground with their heads on fire.

  74. Of course... by http101 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...its easy to do when you've been testing it on your own planet.

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    -- Game Developers: Stop porting badly-textured games from crappy console systems!
  75. Very poor sledding by andrewwyld · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This is all top-of-the-head stuff, but I remember reading once that a planet's escape velocity should exceed the RMS velocity of a gas by about six to retain that gas at that temperature. Mars's escape velocity is about 5 kms-1, and the RMS velocity of O2 molecules at room temperature according to this website is about 500 ms-1. No problem so far, but water molecules weigh just over half what oxygen molecules weigh, the RMS velocity of water vapour will be about sqrt(2) higher, putting it in the borderline bracket.

    Since water evaporation takes a great deal of heat from liquid water, I imagine the continuous loss of water vapour from the Martian atmosphere would tend to cool the planet, reversing any terraforming effort, while leaching away the natural water resources which are thought to exist and which would be necessary to sustain life in a terraformed settlement -- leaving Mars drier and more wintry than ever ...

    ... I'm pretty sure every single step of that argument is seriously flawed, but frankly I doubt we have enough energy to terraform Mars anyway.

    --
    love: @echo "Not war?"
  76. Link to actual research paper by FleaPlus · · Score: 2, Informative

    For even more "meaty" information, check out this research paper by McKay and Marinova from 2001, titled "The Physics, Biology, and Environmental Ethics of Making Mars Habitable".

    Unfortunately, I don't think Marinova's latest paper on this is publically available on the internet.