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More Cell Processor Details And First Pictures
slashflood writes "After reading two articles on slashdot about the Cell architecture and another one that criticizes the extensive roundup of the STI patents, I found the first pictures of the Cell core. It seems that at least some predictions were true. Seeing is believing." mtgarden points to this ZDNet article which says that the "first version of the chip will run at speeds faster than 4GHz. Engineers were vague on how much faster, but reports from design partners say 4.6GHz is likely. By comparison, the fastest current Pentium PC processor tops out at 3.8GHz." (More below.)
Hack Jandy writes "Anand Shimpi has some details about the upcoming Cell processor (PS3) in his personal blog. According to Anand, "Rambus announced that the new Cell processor uses both Rambus XDR memory and their FlexIO processor bus. Because Rambus designed the interface for both the memory controller(s) and the processor interface, the vast majority of signaling pins are using Rambus interfaces - a total of 90% according to Rambus." Hasn't Rambus been showing up a lot again recently? The fact that Cell uses XDR has been widely speculated, but the fact that it will also use the Rambus bus signalling is something completely new."
How about HL2 benchmarks?
Cell processors could really dominate. With how cheap they arespeculated to be, their distributed processing, and their all around speed, the could take over a significant part of the computer marketshare. If Cell processors also have the Power4 processors in them, this could be a replacement for x86. Could be. As other articles have pointed out, x86 has had superior competition in the past, and has been able to weather it. We shall wait and see. Cheers
Hurricane Ivan: A 17th century prison collapsed. All of the inmates escaped.
The Cell is going to be in the PS3, so does that mean that the PS3 will be clocked at 4.6 GHz+? That seems like a big leap considering consoles are normally running a little slower than "good" computers at the time they come out.
Sigs are for the weak.
I'm waiting to see how much work it can actually do before making a judgement. At the least it always exciting to have another option. I wonder how difficult it will be to take advantage of the new architecture.
While 4.6 GHz sounds impressive, I thought we were getting away from the notion that clock speed = performance. The Pentium 4 killed off clock speed comparisons.
I must admit the specs are impressive, but show me the benchmarks!
For all intensive porpoises your a bunch of rediculous loosers
I believe Sony and IBM and Toshiba are going to produce this thing as a joint venture, calling it "Cyberdyne" also naming the PS3 online game network Skynet, sounds promising...
I don't think the final PS3 part will be clocked much higher than 3.5GHz. Otherwise it would probably involve downclocking parts of the CPU to maintain a sane thermal profile, thus making overall performance rather unpredictable. This would especially impact games, where it's all about sustainable framerates at 100% CPU utilization.
http://www.scee.presscentre.com/imagelibrary/detai l.asp?MediaDetailsID=25555
:
CELL...bringing supercomputer power to everyday life with latest technology optimized for compute-intensive and broadband rich media applications
SUMMARY:
Cell is a breakthrough architectural design -- featuring 8 Synergistic Processing Units (SPU) with Power-based core, with top clock speeds exceeding 4 GHz (as measured during initial laboratory testing).
Cell is OS neutral - supporting multiple operating systems simultaneously
Cell is a multicore chip comprising 8 SPUs and a 64-bit Power processor core capable of massive floating point processing
Special circuit techniques, rules for modularity and reuse, customized clocking structures, and unique power and thermal management concepts were applied to optimize the design
CELL is a Multi-Core Architecture
Contains 8 SPUs each containing a 128 entry 128-bit register file and 256KB Local Store
Contains 64-bit Power ArchitectureTM with VMX that is a dual thread SMT design - views system memory as a 10-way coherent threaded machine
2.5MB of on Chip memory (512KB L2 and 8 * 256KB)
234 million transistors
Prototype die size of 221mm2
Fabricated with 90nanometer (nm) SOI process technology
Cell is a modular architecture and floating point calculation capabilities can be adjusted by increasing or reducing the number of SPUs
CELL is a Broadband Architecture
Compatible with 64b Power Architecture(TM)
SPU is a RISC architecture with SIMD organization and Local Store
128+ concurrent transactions to memory per processor
High speed internal element interconnect bus performing at 96B/cycle
CELL is a Real-Time Architecture
Resource allocation (for Bandwidth Management)
Locking caches (via Replacement Management Tables)
Virtualization support with real time response characteristics across multiple operating systems running simultaneously
CELL is Security Enabled Architecture
SPUs dynamically configurable as secure processors for flexible security programming
CELL is a Confluence of New Technologies
Virtualization techniques to support conventional and real time applications
Autonomic power management features
Resource management for real time human interaction
Smart memory flow controllers (DMA) to sustain bandwidth
Thing is, the next Xbox will be using a PowerPC 970. So it will share a common ancestor (POWER) with the Cell.
I wonder, how compatible are the two CPUs' instruction sets? Will Microsoft be able to drop a Cell into a future revision of the Xbox2 and maintain backward compatibility? Could someone theoretically hack a PlayStation3 to run Xbox2 games?
Remember how the Emotion Engine worked us all into a lather five years ago? And when it came out, it was just merely competitive with contemporary processors? Sony is great at churning out nerd fetish tech, but they have a terrible track record of living up to their promises. Let's hope it's different this time.
- a regular CPU (good for program flow/logic and interdependant operations),
- a vector unit (good for large arrays with no conditionals),
- and 8 stream processors (good for applying the same operations plus flow control to lots of independant chunks of data).
w00t!For those of you wondering about the power consumption of this thing, perhaps you should note that Sony just licensed LongRun2 from Transmeta. It is a dynamic solution for power consumption and leakage that will probably end up in the 65nm versions coming out next year. google transmeta sony for more.
Once touted as the Intel killer, perhaps Transmeta will finally have its day.
I wonder what M$ has to beat back a server processor with essentially hyper threading, running at 4.6 ghz, attached to 8 vector processors, each with a lot of registers and cache, which are using extremely fast memory, that can connect to other, similar processors nearby.
Microsoft has consistently overwhelmed the fastest processors on the market and I am confident that with the right bloatware they will continue to do so.
There seems to be alot of confusion surrounding the Cell chip. This is not "just another processor", and it certainly has little to do with clock frequencies - the Cell is a whole new architecture, which might just be a glimpse into the future of computing.
To begin with, it might be useful with some background on the ps2 architecture - there are a couple of really great in-depth articles at Ars Technica; Sound and Vision: A Technical Overview of the Emotion Engine and The PlayStation2 vs. the PC: a system-level comparison of two 3D platforms.
What made the ps2 so awesome was that it was custom-built specifically for multimedia-processing, which requires completely different processing environments than general-purpose computing. Normal PCs are made for computing where you have a large number of instructions working on a small data-set (such as a spreadsheet) - this requires large data-caches close to the CPU, while instructions are streamed continually from RAM. Media-processing is the other way around; you have "simple" operations (like doing the calculations for a single pixel), which are run on a large set of data - so you wouldn't really need any data-caches. The ps2 did exactly this; it removed almost all the caches (only a few tiny ones were left), but it had a totally insane bus bandwidth. To borrow an analogy from the mentioned Ars Technica article:
"Here's a goofy example to help you visualize what I'm talking about: imagine a series of large buckets, connected by pipes to a main tank, with a cow lapping water out of each bucket. Since cows don't drink too fast, the pipes don't have to be too large to keep the buckets full and the cows happy. Now imagine that same setup, except with elephants on the other end instead of cows. The elephants are sucking water out so fast that you've got to do something drastic to keep them happy. One option would be to enlarge the pipes just a little (*cough* AGP *cough*), and stick insanely large buckets on the ends of them (*cough* 64MB GeForce *cough*). You then fill the buckets up to the top every morning, leave the water on all day, and pray to God that the elephants don't get too thirsty. This only works to a certain extent though, because a really thirsty elephant would still end up draining the bucket faster than you can fill it. And what happens when the elephants have kids, and the kids are even thirstier? You're only delaying the inevitable with this solution, because the problem isn't with the buckets, it's with the pipes (assuming an infinite supply of water). A better approach would be to just ditch the buckets altogether and make the pipes really, really large. You'd also want to stick some pans on the ends of the pipes as a place to collect the water before it gets consumed, but the pans don't have to be that big because the water isn't staying in them very long."
So, what does this have to do with the Cell? The Cell takes this concept even further. Cell systems are made up of multiple processors, called APUs (Attached Processing Units), which are connected using an insanely fast data bus. Each APU can be programmed to handle one specific task, and then pass the data on to the next APU for a different task. By doing this, you can just put in more processors to increase the throughput of the system. This works especially good for multimedia processing, which can be pipelined like this pretty easily. Here are a couple of snippets from the Wikipedia entry:
"While the Cell chip can have a number of different configurations, the workstation and PlayStation 3 version of Cell consists of one "Processing Element" ("PE"), and eight "Attached Processing Units" ("APU"). The PE is based on the POWER Architecture, basis of their existing POWER line and related to the PowerPC used by Apple
You mean like the Itanic? Shoe's on the other foot now, eh?
So the CPU is just a normal POWER, right?
No. Each Cell has one main (controller) CPU called a PU, and up to 8 seperate vector CPUs called SPEs. The main CPU is a regular 64-bit POWER processor (with SMT --- IBM's equivalent of hyperthreading), while the APUs are very simple processors with a lot of execution resources and insane bandwidth. Such processors are known as "stream processors" in the literature, because they are designed to handle streams of data.
it's just a different brandname, right?
Yes, "AltiVec" (like "G5") is an Apple/Motorola trademark, so IBM can't use it. And you're right, the AltiVec unit is on the PU.
For what purposes is the VMX more suited?
It's there most likely because if you're running some code that isn't suitable for the SPEs, but does need to do vector computations, you don't have to send it off to the SPEs.
Will the SPEs have this same starvation problem?
Potentially, but probably not. Altivec on the G4 was starved because the G4's bus was exceedingly slow. The SPEs are supposed to be on a shared 128GB/sec internal bus, and the Cell has 100GB/sec of bandwidth to main memory.
That each of the SPEs has 256k of private memory to work with?
Yes. In the Cell model, you design your code in "cells". A cell is a clump of code and data that's copied to the SPE's local memory. The code then runs, streaming in additional data from memory, and using the local memory as a workspace.
Can SPEs freely read other SPEs "local memory", or only their own? And who fills up this memory initially, and who deals with it once it's done?
The SPEs local memories are not connected to each other, so each SPE can only read from its own local memory. The memory is filled up by the PU, when a Cell is loaded onto the SPE. The SPE then runs autonomously, and when it finishes, sends the results back to the PU via main memory.
I.E., do the SPEs have access to main or video memory or other hardware, or do they ever require for the CPU to shuttle data to keep them fed?
The SPEs and the PU all talk to a single DMAC, which has access to main memory.
But then the article seems to be saying the is SPE access to memory is limited-- i.e. it can only be done in block load/stores.
Yes. The DMAC, actually, can only read/write in 1024-bit blocks. This isn't really a big deal if you think about it. When a regular CPU reads a memory address, it doesn't read a byte at a time. It loads a whole cacheline at a time. So a P4, for example, usually reads a 128-byte (1024-bit) block at a time from memory anyway.
Do each of the 8 SPEs actually independently load their own instruction streams?
Yes. All the processor units run seperate instruction streams. Each "software cell" runs in its own thread, if you will.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
and I bet it still wouldn't be able to run Longhorn.
Warning: Could be fatal if taken seriously
I was at the Cell event today, and quoted in some of the news stories. I also have the ISSCC technical papers.
The PowerPC core in the Cell prototype chip is NOT a Power5, as speculated here. According to IBM, this core was designed from scratch for this application. One critical difference is that the new pipeline executes instructions in strict program order rather than reordering instructions to improve throughput as is done with Power5.
Also, IBM has not described the core as "simultaneous multithreaded", just "multithreaded." I presume from this that the multithreading is coarse-grained-- only one thread is active at a time, unlike Power5 which can execute instructions from two different threads in the same cycle.
The logic design for the Cell CPU was optimized for higher clock speeds in a given process than Power5 can achieve. This is a good tradeoff for more linear multimedia algorithms, but reduces effective throughput on other types of code.
I think it's reasonable to suppose that if Apple were interested in using the Cell architecture, it would prefer to use a version of the design that includes a Power5 core in place of the one in the Cell prototype.
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