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Straczynski Offers To Re-Boot Star Trek [updated]

EvilMagnus writes "I just came across this thread over on usenet where J. Michael Straczynski, creator of Babylon 5 and Jeremiah, talks about the cancellation of Enterprise. It seems he and a collaborator have already written a series bible and treatment for a new version of Star Trek - but it's not been pitched to Paramount out of 'political considerations' (Berman refusing to give up his dead horse?). JMS calls for everyone who thinks a JMS-run Star Trek series would be a good idea to write Paramount and let them know." Along similar lines, yonnage writes "Last week there was an article posted here about Enterprise fans atempting to pay for the next season of Enterprise. It seems that all the efforts have been pulled together and a new website has been created and has started collecting contributions for Enterprise's next season." Update: 02/16 19:47 GMT by T : Read the rest of the thread to see JMS's followup; he's decided to at least postpone this endeavor.

100 of 482 comments (clear)

  1. Great idea by Fox_1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The nice thing about JMS's work is how he weaves complex themes into the story arc, rather then exploring and discarding them in single episode blips. That was great for the original Star Trek and early science fiction on tv (time tunnel, that sub show, quantum leap, etc) but the work of series like Bab5 has raise sci fi on tv to a higher level - where they take advantage of the serial esque nature of weekly broadcasts.
    I'm in.

    --
    The rock, the vulture, and the chain
    1. Re:Great idea by cnettel · · Score: 4, Interesting
      I don't think that's only a good thing, because that also may lock the series into certain views and themes in a bad way. The TNG episodes have a huge diversity, at the cost of consistency :-)

      OTOH, I liked much of Babylon 5 and prefer it over Enterprise (but not anything that really has Star Trek in its name). I think he would certainly be able to do a good job.

    2. Re:Great idea by Fox_1 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      people change and cultures change and while too structured an arc may be out of date by the time it is complete (see what 9/11 did to some shows and movies), I think that with the right 'architect' so to speak the arc can adapt. You are right about TNG - early episodes in tng (season 1) show a different flavor and philosophy to some of the more complex episodes near the end of the run. trying to think of an example - best I have is how the Data character evolved, or some of the prime directive messes - I know there are inconsistencies in there somewhere. However they had the PICARD and that overcomes all clumsy plot devices. The beauty of the ARC is really complex character development can happen over multiple shows - of course you miss a few episodes and it can be confusing. (farscape, glactica, bab5) Course I perfer a hybrid where the one off episodes are well woven into a larger ARC - Star Gate does this pretty well.

      --
      The rock, the vulture, and the chain
    3. Re:Great idea by EyeSavant · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The bad thing about JMS is that once the curtain has been pulled away after the huge and great buildup my reaction was HUH?. Wonderful intricate buildup, no followthrough.

      Of course with Bab5 he got some help in screwing up the end with the fact that it almost got cancelled after 4 series, so series 4 is compressed to fit it all in. Then series 5 does not have enough content and has too many filler episodes.

    4. Re:Great idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yeah, I think that cancellation threat was the real reason that everything got screwed up. He had the original idea that it should take 5 seasons (which is great, you make this story with a fixed duration, you can make things work out nicely) but had to rush everything to fit into 4 (which showed), then had to append an entire 5th season when the whole story had already been told.


      The sad thing is that Enterprise got cancelled when they had found some kind of nice equilibrium, building depth into the very foundations of the Star Trek universe. It was nice to see the strife on Vulcan, and exploring the Andorian civilization. It would have been nice to see the establishment of the federation etc (the first two seasons with the temporal cold war theme were simply pathetic).


      Still, JMS does excellent work if the networks don't keep changing the allotted time. I got hooked into Bab 5 right from the pilot movie as it clearly indicated that there was a complex story behind the scenes... and you could feel that it had an end. A series that is too open ended without an end in sight automatically builds inconsistencies.

    5. Re:Great idea by ajs · · Score: 5, Funny
      Great idea or tragedy waiting to happen?

      Probably neither. It's probably so unlikely that it's not worth categorizing. The reasons are many, but it comes down to this: Straczynski is pig-headed, but not stupid. He would never agree to do it without complete creative control, and there's practically no way Paramount would allow that to happen. It would be along the lines of Bill Gates giving over control of the Windows platform to Linus Torvalds without even retaining the right to veto checkins.

      Without complete creative control, you know what would happen: JMS would put forward his bible saying, "we tear down half of Starfleet and kill off a few notables to shake things up," and Paramount would reply with notes like the following:
      • Sounds good, but I don't think we want to kill anyone who has an action figure
      • "Tear down" might be too strong. Let's just say that there's a night-club bombing somewhere on Ferengi-prime
      • Great ideas, but you need to sex it up a bit
      • The first scene needs to really pull the viewers in: make it a fist fight
      • My kid loves tribbles, can you work one in as a major character?
      He's been through this before with TNT and Crusade (the mess that you saw on TV was the result). He won't do it again.

      All that said, YES, petition Paramount to do it. I think that at the very least it shows a massive lack of confidence in current show-runners and might upset the apple-cart enough to get someone creative in there.
    6. Re:Great idea by drsquare · · Score: 5, Insightful

      On the other hand, it makes it so that people who aren't obsessive TV viewers who religiously watch every single episode, all in order, can't get into it. If you sit down and watch a single episode, you won't understand it. That doesn't make it a better programme, it doesn't 'raise it to a higher level', it just narrows its appeal, and turns it more into a soap.

    7. Re:Great idea by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The problem, IMO, is that episodic television tends to dumb down the content. Having a sequential story, IMO does raise it to a higher level as it does allow a more complex and intertwined story. And IMO, yes, it really does raise it to a higher level when done well. Reducing TV, or keeping TV reduced to simplified stories, is an insult to the watchers, especially if few to no episodes have a meaningful impact on those following it.

      Each episode of B5 can be watched on its own and watched in sequence as well.

      Yes, there will be unknown bits but that doesn't mean the episode itself isn't relevant on its own without watching other parts.

      Shows like 24 and Alias have proven that prime time TV audiences are willing to accept a continuing story. I've watched three episodes of Alias, and despite not knowing certain bits, I didn't feel punished for not having seen previous episodes.

    8. Re:Great idea by AviLazar · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Why does it have to be absolute on either way? Why not have a hybrid. Underlying themes/plots coming up in the episodes, but each episode having some individual aspect to help bring in the n00bs.

      --

      I mod down so you can mod up. Your welcome.
    9. Re:Great idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      sorry but all of his projects were never allowed to see their end properly.

      B5 was screwed with by the morons in the suits.

      and Jeremiah was utterly destroyed by the idiots that run Showtime.

      the first season had people rivited and giving up what they did on friday nights to watch it. The second season was finished but not with JMS's control and anyone can easily see that. He made it exactly like how the suits wanted it in the 2nd season and it sucked horribly because of it.

      he did that because it was his proof to themthat the suits know absolutely nothing about Television and a good story. which is 100% true.

      management will fuck up something good whenever they get the chance to.

      JMS is a great storyteller, his book is a great insight into the PITA the industry is..

    10. Re:Great idea by JWW · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Deep Space 9 was forced to adopt story arcs because of pressure from Babylon 5.

      It made DS9 far stronger a show than it would have been without the competition.

      Now, with Enterprise, it looks different. Instead of stepping up to the plate and doing better, they're just packing up.

    11. Re:Great idea by Golias · · Score: 2

      That wasn't my experience with Alias at all. When I caught an episode here and there, I thought it was a pretty lame show. Once I saw the pilot and the first couple episodes (in order) on DVD, I was hooked and have now watched it through Season 3, and I'm waiting for the DVD release of Season 4 because I don't want to watch them out of sequence.

      You want to see really great episodic television?

      "House, MD"

      British actor Hugh Laurie has had some great roles over the years. I used to think that Bernie Wooster was the role he was born to play... but he's topped himself with this show.

      --

      Information wants to be anthropomorphized.

    12. Re:Great idea by Golias · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why not have a hybrid. Underlying themes/plots coming up in the episodes, but each episode having some individual aspect to help bring in the n00bs.

      You just described every Joss Whedon show.

      Maybe he should do the next Star Trek.

      Oh wait... he already did a much better sci-fi show. It got cancelled but is now going to be a movie next fall (which is likely to be the first of several), so I guess he's too busy.

      --

      Information wants to be anthropomorphized.

    13. Re:Great idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'm surprised no one has commented on a key phrase in JMS's post:

      "with challenging stories, contemporary themes, solid extrapolation, and the infusion of some of our best and brightest SF prose writers..."

      IMO, writers like Ted Sturgeon, Harlan Ellison, Robert Bloch, Jerome Bixby, Frederic Brown, David Gerrold, Norman Spinrad, Richard Matheson, and Larry Niven (animated series) gave the original series an edge that the later incarnations of Trek haven't matched.

      But can we believe JMS here? Despite the greatness of B5, he seemed to have trouble working with other writers. And why not-- if you had a novel planned out, how easy would it be for you to let other writers pen a chapter? For JMSTrek to work, a looser 5-year arc would need to be crafted, with ample room for other writers to work. Moreover, bridges would have to be built to the fiction-writing community, which has soured on the SF-tripe produced by Hollywood. As David Gerrold once said: "I'm not a Star Trek writer, I'm a science fiction writer. I like building my own worlds more than share-cropping in someone else's. "

      Even two years from now, after Paramount's Star Trek break, I doubt whether movie or television science fiction will have changed. Expect the infatuation with special effects, and the resultant shallow chacterization to continue.

      It's sad; I find shows like Numb3rs doing a better job with science than any techno-babble infused science fiction shows.

    14. Re:Great idea by Hestas+Coyote · · Score: 3, Informative

      What you say is true for most TV series that are seriel in nature, However they don't have to be. 24 is pretty good example of this. The first couple minutes of every show gives a quick run down of what important events have brought you to the current point in the show. I have introduced several friends into watching 24 becuase of this. They don't have to worry about what they missed, becuase the lead in brings them where they need to be for the current show. It's not perfect, but it is a lot better than having to tell someone, oh yeah, you should watch show XYZ, but I'll have to let you know when a good starting episode will be on, other wise you won't know where you are at.

    15. Re:Great idea by Leo+McGarry · · Score: 2

      I think a similar example is Stephen King's "Dark Tower" series. I recently finished the last book, and while I won't give away anything, the author seems to have basically written himself into a corner out of which he lacked the ability to write himself. So much imagination went into the story's front end that there was nothing left for the climax. I found it profoundly disappointing, and wished I'd stopped reading after book #6. A cliffhanger is a better way to end it than a sort-of-not-really conclusion.

      I find that stories with massive premises always end up being anti-climactic. Take "Lord of the Rings" for example. Frodo dunks the ring, war over. I wished it hadn't been that simple. I wished there had been more to it. The setup didn't pay off for me.

    16. Re:Great idea by PortHaven · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The main issue with B5 was the doubt in season 5. So they cut all the minor sub-plots and basically ended it in season 4. And then did the follow-up on season 5.

      But all things considered he did a good job of pulling the rabbit out of the hat on that.

      And if you've watched Jeremiah it is one of those slow paced shows but where you feel everything is getting entangled and what you first thought is not what you now think and you are left wondering "what will I think in season 2?"

    17. Re:Great idea by vivin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, he did. And there is a sequel to it called Eternity as well.

      Both are full of technical mumbo-jumbo and are hard to visualize. It had some interesting ideas - a lot of which were sort of advanced for the time. But theere wasn't too much character development.

      As far as JMS doing ST goes, I think its a good idea. Trek needs some new blood. TNG was awesome, and I really enjoyed DS9 too. My response to Enterprise has been comparitively lukewarm. Right now I'm following BSG (Battlestar Galactica), which I'm thoroughly enjoying. I compare it to Enterprise, and I see a world of difference - so much more character development, and the characters seem so much more human, well-rounded, and complex. There is no constant talk of lofty ideals and principles (which is not a bad thing in Trek, but it sometimes gets repetitive in Enterprise, and it seems rather contrived).

      --
      Vivin Suresh Paliath
      http://vivin.net

      I like
    18. Re:Great idea by strelitsa · · Score: 2, Funny
      Mod parent up.

      Anybody who doesn't instantly want to throttle Harlan Ellison upon meeting him is simply not paying attention.

      --
      No mod points, no meta-moderating/Firehose/all the other free work Slashdot wants me to do.
    19. Re:Great idea by jp10558 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I actually really liked Alias season 1. I was unable to watch season 2 very much, so until I catch up I can't say too much.

      From what I hear, I do think Alias may be beginning to have a problem with not knowing when to end. IE, the main arc is done - end the show.

      I think trying to transition some stories, like Alias's into new arcs breaks the show. Like how Matrix as one movie was awesome, but trying to extend to a trilogy basically ruined it. IMHO of course.

      And I'll give newer eps a chance when I can get the DVDs from netflix or whatever.

      --
      Opera, Proxomitron-Grypen,GPG 0x0A1C6EE3
    20. Re:Great idea by paladin_tom · · Score: 2, Informative

      Or maybe not.... :p

      He says it's all moot now.

      --
      #define sig "Every social system runs on the people's belief in it."
  2. I see... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...That they now have a unified site to try and save Enterprise. *sigh* I wish they'd stop, it makes Gene Roddenberry's (SP?) corpse cry. As for there being another trek, I think the series needs to rest for a while.

    1. Re:I see... by EnsilZah · · Score: 5, Funny

      Makes his corpse reverse polarity in its grave, one might say.

    2. Re:I see... by mqRakkis · · Score: 2, Interesting
      it makes Gene Roddenberry's (SP?) corpse cry


      Not to worry! I don't think anyone can hear him in space.
    3. Re:I see... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I do not believe there is any need to "rest" Star Trek, I think what it needs is creative talent that can improve the quality of the episodes, and it needs a series that is set after the DS9 and Voyager. I think Enterprise was a bad idea, creating a series which is set long before the other star trek series, it allows for a lot of trouble with messing up the timelines, and takes away some of the value of moving the star trek timeline forward into the future, new territory, and instead must dwell within an already defined past timeline.

      In a sci-fi series like Star Trek, accuracy in timelines, events, facts and detials is very important and errors in the timelines, which they seem to have a hard time avoiding in Enterprise since it occurs previous to the other series', can shake ones confidence in the series and introduce paradoxes which weaken the entire structure of the franchise.

      A new series I believe as well should incorporate the exploration and discovery aspects of Star Trek, finding strange new worlds, new civilisations, strange distant reaches of the galaxy filled with odd pecularities and phenomena. Integrating a sort of mystery-genre aspect into many episodes where the crew encounter odd mysterious and wierd phenomena and discovering what they are can be quite fascinating. There are so many creative possibilities for plots that don't involve pure action and violence but offer a deep and involving plot line, with mysteries, strangeness, and oddities, that there is no reason Star Trek cannot be revived. Furthermore we do have today far more resources avialable than in the original series in creating compelling renderings of these strange worlds and different races and beings that werent avialable in the original star trek. While the series should be based on a ship, there should also be episodes allowing the viewer to see other parts of the federation, such as the crew visiting space docks, and federation planets. In addition to exploration and discovery of distant corners of the galaxy, it would also be nice to see in several episodes the ship visit several core federation planets which we seem to see little of, like Vulcan and Earth.

  3. It's Berman's fault by sugapablo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It's Berman's fault the series on TV is as stale as it is. Proof is that some of the ST novels are tremendously well-written, proving their are plenty of new, fresh, and quality stories left to tell in the final frontier.

    Of the best, are the DS9 relaunch, which continues the story of Deep Space Nine directly after the TV series ends, and Peter David's remarkable New Frontier series with it's Xenexian captain Mackenzie Calhoun. This series has proved, IMHO, to be one of the best out of all the Trek series.

    1. Re:It's Berman's fault by blowdart · · Score: 5, Funny
      "Kaptain we're being zucked into a black Berman hole"

      "Fire the JMS ego ray ensign, they should cancel each other out"

      "A hot space babe has just appeared, the ratings levels are going up rapidly, most logical captain"

      Whoever does it around 50% of the fans are going to complain.

  4. Forget Trek by imag0 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How about bringing back a show that was interesting and original, like Firefly?

    That would be worth the money. Not watching YATS (Yet Another Trek Show).

    1. Re:Forget Trek by Steve+B · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Are there even any aliens in the show? I don't want it "chock full of nuts" aliens like Voyager was at its worst, but given 5 years and whatever budget Whedon wants, would there still be any?

      What ever does this have to do with the question of Firefly's merits or lack thereof?

      --
      /. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
  5. Go for it by nuclear305 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Cue all the "Let it die already!" and "Trek needs a rest" comments...

    These people have nothing to lose by pitching another series to Paramount. Enterprise is dead, and I'm sure Paramount would eagerly pick up anything with the slightest chance of turning a profit.

    Since the article mentions they're taking their idea "to the public" I think they'd get a better reaction by releasing a preview of some type. Kind of hard for an audience to approve and support a project without knowing what it is! (Because we all know counting on the Trek name alone doesn't always work)

    1. Re:Go for it by Babbster · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Since the article mentions they're taking their idea "to the public" I think they'd get a better reaction by releasing a preview of some type. Kind of hard for an audience to approve and support a project without knowing what it is! (Because we all know counting on the Trek name alone doesn't always work)

      Indeed. I suppose JMS and company are counting on the geek legions to just support any idea he has, even sight unseen. This was certainly the case when Rick Berman was given all-but-complete control over Star Trek - TNG was good, so why not let him do whatever he wants? That certainly turned out well.

      If I were to support anyone along these lines, I'd support Manny Coto. Enterprise really IS better than it was previously, which is pretty impressive considering how weak the show was before (and Odyssey 5 was pretty good, too).

      It's a pretty crowded bandwagon that I'm yelling from here, but the key is to drop Berman like a hot potato. Then, if Paramount feels that they have to get Star Trek back on screen (big or small), they should throw the doors open and take pitches from all kinds of people - JMS, Coto...anyone who wants to take the time and make the effort to construct something that will hopefully revitalize the A/V portion of the franchise (some of the books are actually pretty darned good - I've liked the DS9 followups, for example).

  6. JMS - PLEASE READ THIS! by Seumas · · Score: 5, Funny

    More Wil Wheaton!

    1. Re:JMS - PLEASE READ THIS! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      +2, Insightful . . . Who knew Wil read Slashdot this early in the morning? :D

    2. Re:JMS - PLEASE READ THIS! by Nogami_Saeko · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And more Walter Koenig :)

      One of Trek's nicest guys played the B5 villain that everyone loved to hate! But I loved how JMS actually gave him a bit of a human side when you understood what made him the way he was...

      Even villain need motives and factors that drive them - very few people are just inherently nasty for the sake of being mean :P

      --
      "Nothing strengthens authority so much as silence." - Charles de Gaulle
    3. Re:JMS - PLEASE READ THIS! by pklong · · Score: 3, Funny

      Cut to overhead closup Khan style shot:

      Noooooooooooooooooooo!

      --

      Philip

      Signatures are broken

    4. Re:JMS - PLEASE READ THIS! by rkhalloran · · Score: 2, Funny

      Of course, given the successful series from J J Abrams on Wednesday nights, the critics would immediately dub it...

      (drum roll...)

      " 'Lost' in Space ".....

      Hmmm, wonder if Bill Mumy's available...

    5. Re:JMS - PLEASE READ THIS! by codeguy007 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Of course, Koenig is also about 70 now. He's young-looking, but with the rest of the original Trek players dying off in the last decade, he may not be around long

      First of all he's only 68. Second the only regular from the Original series to die has been DeForest Kelly who was 84. James Doohan is sick, yes but he's also turning 85 years old this year.

  7. Track Record? by R.Caley · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Given JMS's sucess in creating followups to B5, I think I'd be happier to hear he was working on something new.

    --
    _O_
    .|<
    The named which can be named is not the true named
    1. Re:Track Record? by jregel · · Score: 3, Informative

      The potential for Crusade was never realised. Consider the first 15 episodes of B5 and remember how the focus was Jeffery Sinclair's missing 24 hours and the reason the Minbari surrendered during the Battle of the Line? How much of that was really relevant to the subsequent years with the Shadow war?

      Crusade was about the Shadow virus that would wipe out Earth in five years. By the end of the episodes made, the structure of the virus (nano-tech) was understood. I've read that the virus would be cured fairly early in the series.

      There were also glimpses of what was to come - the Apolcalypse box - whatever that was, was a mystery waiting to be solved, and there was the revelation that Galen (the Technomage) has some sort of implants. The unfilmed episodes pushed the series up a gear with the revelation that the Technomages were being hunted by Earthforce for their tech.

      The opening dialogue to each episode contained some stuff that was familiar, but other lines that would have probably been explored throughout the series:

      Who are you? (Vorlon)
      What do you want? (Shadow)
      Where are you going? (Lorien?)
      Who do you serve and who do you trust?

      The last one being probably the most important. Crusade was much more than we ever saw and to see it killed before being aired is very sad. I, like many B5 fans, would love to see it return and hope that TMOS (The Memory Of Shadows) will be the catalyst for this.

  8. sad news by phreakv6 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Here is the Feb 2nd trektoday article about the cancellation.
    Enterprise fan ?.. join here to support.

    --
    fifteen jugglers, five believers
  9. Recanted by mondoterrifico · · Score: 5, Informative

    He has already recanted this offer. http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-17287/

    1. Re:Recanted by cnettel · · Score: 5, Informative
    2. Re:Recanted by ajs · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I think it's still worth pushing. Here are the reasons:
      1. JMS could pick someone he trusts -- and yes, I think there are a few -- to execute his plan for him the way Abrams has done with Lost
      2. Paramount may have decided to let the series lay fallow for a year or two today, but I doubt that that would hold in the face of a successful media blitz in favor of JMS's show
      3. Like I said before, it's not likely that even if the effort is successful in stirring up Paramount that they would ever select JMS's treatment. Instead you want to push them to re-evaluate the creative team and Berman in particular
      4. If they're holding off for 1-2 years, now's a great time to start directing their attention at the fans... Paramount can be a bit... "slow".
  10. Actually he retracted the request for now.... by MauMan · · Score: 5, Informative
    Actually he retracted the request for now....

    Actually...belay everything I just said.

    In the 24 hours between the time I composed the prior note, and sent
    it, and it made its way through the moderation software, two things
    happened:

    1) I heard from a trusted source that Paramount is giving the Trek TV
    world a rest for maybe one to two years, depending on circumstances, no
    matter who would come along to run it. So it's not right to have folks
    putting in time doing something that ultimately would be pointless, I
    don't think that's a proper use of anybody's time.

    2) At the same time as the above, an offer came in to run a new TV
    series for fall of '06, and since there's no way anything Trek can
    happen in the interim, I've said yes (now we have to negotiate the
    deal, but that should be fairly straightforward).

    So on two counts, the whole thing is kind of moot.

    We can reconvene a year or two down the road to see where this takes
    us, but in the interim...my apologies for waking everybody up in the
    middle of the night.

    As you were.

    Thanks and with great chagrinedness --


    From here
    --
    ------- Code to try when you're bored: qsort( 0, UINT_MAX, sizeof( int* ), IntCompare );
  11. They lost it after DS9... by bani · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ..Voyager, and then Enterprise proved that the producers have completely lost their marbles, and totally lost touch with the core audience.

    As soon as I heard the Enterprise opening theme, I knew it was dead.

    I think trek needs to die, and stay dead for another 15 years or so. Only then will it be ready for another revival.

    Such wasted effort on tripe like Enterprise, when stuff like Firefly is far more deserving.

    1. Re:They lost it after DS9... by aurum42 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Nonsense - DS9 had a slow start, but the later seasons had some of the most intelligent SF ever seen on television, exploring fairly complex ethical and social issues.

      --
      "The slave who knows his master's will and does not get ready...will be be beaten with many blows."Luke 12:47-48
  12. Startrek Campaign ? by ehack · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Maybe JMS can sell one-year long mini-series or something ? Bab5 was overlong, although the idea of a multi-episode script was nicely exercised .

    --
    This is not a signature.
    1. Re:Startrek Campaign ? by CharonX · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well, I think that was what made Babylon 5 so attractive.
      Not the simple self contained "Plot in a Box" in each Episode, with only minor changes to the overall Environment.
      If you normally miss several Episodes it won't hurt, but the Babylon 5 Environment was alive, and with every Episode a steady change took place. Missing several Eps of Babylon 5 instantly gave you a WTF feeling when you watched again, since so many things had changed.

      --
      +++ MELON MELON MELON +++ Out of Cheese Error +++ redo from start +++
    2. Re:Startrek Campaign ? by Seumas · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How was B5 overlong? It was five seasons from day one. He had the very last scene of season five in his head before he even shot scene one of season one. It was as long as it was supposed to be; no more no less...

  13. Wow by Nogami_Saeko · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I have a feeling that it would be something amazing if JMS was to "reboot" Trek...

    It's become increasingly obvious that the franchise has run out of steam in it's current incarnation. There's just nothing left that feels new or exciting... So I'd be happy to see this happen. That said, I think there's a number of obstacles, not the least of which is the fear of the star trek establishment to try something new for fear of "breaking something".

    Here's a newsflash folks. It's already broken, and staying with the status-quo is going to ensure that it remains broken. I suppose they could always take another 5 year hiatus and come back with another rehash, but they'll know it, and so will we.

    I quite enjoyed Voyager because they had more free reign in the series to try new things, and trying new things is what keeps the show fresh...

    N.

    --
    "Nothing strengthens authority so much as silence." - Charles de Gaulle
  14. Idea already been pulled by Dionysus · · Score: 5, Informative

    JMS already pulled the idea (Paramount decided to give Trek TV a rest).
    Check out the updated info at TrekWeb

    --
    Je ne parle pas francais.
  15. BROKEN LINK - CORRECTION by twoshortplanks · · Score: 3, Informative

    That link's broken. I thnk you meant this: http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-17287

    --
    -- Sorry, I can't think of anything funny to say here.
  16. Perhaps the only Hope for Star Trek by CharonX · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Michael Straczynski is among the few people that, I think, could save Star Trek and bring it back to its former glory.
    Of course there are MANY people who could improve the current situation (for while I can image quite a few worse than Berman, yet most of them aren't in the TV biz) but Michael Straczynski is among the few that have the skill to revive a franchise that badly beaten.
    So let's see the good part - either Michael gets to do the new series, or Berman drives another series in the ground and then - finally - is fired - even the most ignorant bosses don't like dropping ratings, and the cancellation of Enterprise shows that something is fundamentally wrong with the ratings and that the bosses noticed.

    --
    +++ MELON MELON MELON +++ Out of Cheese Error +++ redo from start +++
  17. I can't bare to see Star Trek end! by lordmetroid · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I continously hope for enterprise to be ended in it's seven season as a Star Trek series ought to be ended! I must admit though that some seasons were really lame, I liked enterprise at first. When they didn't have any equipment that worked and their was no experience in anything of what they did had political problems with klingons and vulcans as well as andorians, pretty much the starting seasons. later on as they got photonic torpedoes and other technologies to their usage so that the humans wouldn't seem so inferior, that was when the show started to go bad and it's anticlimax must in my opinion been the whole time wars shit. This season been quite good though with Vulcans having internal problems and dealing with Andorians and Romulans starting to look like something good again, and hence I would like to have the series continue. Hopefully a new Star Trek series will also be made, I seem to never be able to get enough of Star Trek. I would have nothing against a remake of the old series, but I think they need to cram in some more juice into it, better scenery and Klingons that actually look like they should do and not human!

    1. Re:I can't bare to see Star Trek end! by hhawk · · Score: 2, Insightful

      yes too much time travel... everything else can be fun (and interesting if done well)...

      they should spend more time fighting evil viruses and other alien BIO and less time with "grand fights for the future of mankind..."

      --
      http://www.hawknest.com/
  18. Re:Wrong department. by AdmiralWeirdbeard · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Ah, the requisite NextGen nazi.
    Dont get me wrong, NextGen rocks, but to lump DS9 with Enterprise is just wrong. Enterprise totally sucked, and thats why it got axed. DS9 is rad and allowed for a real overarching plotline to develop, as opposed to the NextGen thing of the "X-Character Episodes." Like the "Data Episodes" where the silly humans are doing something that puzzles data and he endeavors to understand, or the "Barclay Episodes."

    That's not to say that DS9 is better, I happen to like NG better overall, simply because the best of the "X-Character episodes" are just soo good.

    But needless to say, Berman has shown himself unworthy of the reigns and should, in turn, be shown the door.

    --
    Come read my stupid blagablog. Rants and Giggles
  19. I am getting sick of this.... by brunes69 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    ... tripe on Slashdot. People go on and on about how "It has all been downhill since TNG" and it has all been Berman's fault, etc.

    For one thing, Roddenberry died midway through TNG. Berman was basically the man at the helm for what was argueable the best portion of the series, the last 3 seasons. Even before that, he played a very, very large part in TNG. So to say that "Berman is Death" of everything, than to praise TNG, borders on the edge of ridiculousness.

    For another, DS9 (the first series run soley by Berman) was actually very good (once it got going - the first season or two were quite.. icky).

    Voyager, well..... what can you say. An amazing capability for a plot line, but it descended into fodder. Basically, the same thing with Enterprise.

    So from *my* point of view, he is batting 0.500 - a decent average the way I look at it.

    Aside from all this - you people seem to believe that the whole series lives and dies by Berman's word. Shouldn't some of the blame be put on the writers? The writers are the ones coming up with the same old crap over and over again.

    1. Re:I am getting sick of this.... by Seumas · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It doesn't matter how good you are. A dead horse is still a dead horse. Bob Hope was an amazing talent, but stayed in the public far too long, for example. You can be great and still fail, if the appetite isn't there for what you're producing.

      This is a different world and a different generation. You can't expect the same old formula to work forever and it will take a significant attempt to be able to concoct something that appealed to a large audience, now.

    2. Re:I am getting sick of this.... by deltatype0 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It doesn't matter how many Trek sequals you make, you will never shut up the old fans of the original series (and some TNG fans) from still bitching about how "Kirk is better then every other Captian, Spock rules, and Scotty is the bomb diggity" Personally I like all of them, the original told a good story and had some good action, TNG also told a good story and was very diverse. DS9 started off really shitty, but it picked up when they got the Defiant and started applying some wartime plots to the middle and end of the series, though I think the character development was the best part of DS9. Voyager remains one of my favorites, it was a "new technology" series that backed a lot of action with very capable characters, it's first few seasons were great, sadly it slipped during the infamous "Time Travel" 4th season, but it ended very nicely. Enterprise to me just didn't gel. Unless you purposely want to spend 100 bucks per episode you can't make a series that can take place before the original and look authentic enough, not to mention breaking the timeline to hell in order to do it. I for one won't miss it when it leaves. Point is though, doesn't matter how many more Treks are made, they will still fall short of fans' high expectations set by the originals. It is not a series problem, it is a fan problem. This is why I like the books. And I second an ealier thread, New Frontier is an awesome series.

    3. Re:I am getting sick of this.... by Mordaximus · · Score: 4, Insightful
      For another, DS9 (the first series run soley by Berman) was actually very good (once it got going - the first season or two were quite.. icky).

      Actually, Ira Steven Behr and Michael Piller were also executive producers. However, I don't think that it's a coincidence that Deep Space 9 picked up steam around the time when Voyager was launched. Personally I suspect Ira Steven Behr had far more to do with the success of Deep Space 9 than Berman ; he likely got more control of the show as Berman turned his attention to Voyager.

      That's not to say that I think Berman is solely, nor even mostly responsible for the downfall of the franchise : Check Brannon Braga's credits : He had his fingers in a great deal of the two worst Star Trek shows. And notably absent from my favorite trek, DS9.

    4. Re: I am getting sick of this.... by gidds · · Score: 2, Insightful
      And yet look at those TNG credits. Hardly a duff episode there, and so many of my favourites ('best' is so subjective): Cause and Effect, Frame of Mind, Schisms, Eye of the Beholder, Timescape... Real SF storylines, drama, mystery, almost Philip K. Dick-ian in places.

      I didn't keep up with the later shows; what went wrong?

      --

      Ceterum censeo subscriptionem esse delendam.

    5. Re: I am getting sick of this.... by Mordaximus · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I didn't keep up with the later shows; what went wrong?

      Braga was just a writer for TNG. His hands were probably far more tied back then as far as "creative license" is concerned. He worked his way up the producer ladder during Voyager, while continuing to write, until he shared Executive Producer duties with Berman.

      If you want a good example of what happens when you let your Executive Producers write... look at Enterprise. It wasn't until Manny Coto took over that the show started to work. The whole temporal cold war was an idea that should never have seen the light of day. But when wrote the script and you also have final say in it... what are you going to do, say your story sucks and trash it?

      Just my theory, of course.

    6. Re:I am getting sick of this.... by vkevlar · · Score: 2, Insightful
      ... tripe on Slashdot. People go on and on about how "It has all been downhill since TNG" and it has all been Berman's fault, etc.
      Well, Berman, Brannon Braga, and their in-house "staff" writers, anyhow.

      For one thing, Roddenberry died midway through TNG. Berman was basically the man at the helm for what was argueable the best portion of the series, the last 3 seasons. Even before that, he played a very, very large part in TNG. So to say that "Berman is Death" of everything, than to praise TNG, borders on the edge of ridiculousness.
      I found seasons 1 and 2 barely watchable, 3-4(well, half of 5th too) to be good, and (half of)5th, and all of 6th and 7th to be completely unwatchable. Seasons 1-4 had outside writing talent for a majority of the episodes; it was after the staff writers took over that we got most of the horrible "and now Beverly Crusher gets to have a love affair with a ghost!" episodes.

      For another, DS9 (the first series run soley by Berman) was actually very good (once it got going - the first season or two were quite.. icky).
      DS9 was also heavily ripping off Babylon 5, while competing with it. That inspired a lot.

      Voyager, well..... what can you say. An amazing capability for a plot line, but it descended into fodder. Basically, the same thing with Enterprise.
      The Voyager itself was, literally, blown off course in the badlands of space. This was in the first episode, and set the tone for finding Amelia Earhart, devolving into amphibians that were allergic to water, and neelix's lungs. Voyager was abject shit of the first order. Enterprise was unwatchable for the first three seasons, with moments of amusement.

      So from *my* point of view, he is batting 0.500 - a decent average the way I look at it.
      From my point of view, he's taken something I grew up loving, and rammed it into the ground, while having marital relations with Gene Roddenberry's corpse. To each their own.

      Aside from all this - you people seem to believe that the whole series lives and dies by Berman's word. Shouldn't some of the blame be put on the writers? The writers are the ones coming up with the same old crap over and over again.
      The "writers" are his, and Brannon Braga's, fault. They're "staff writers" that were cycled in by the pair of them, to the exclusion of outside scripts. Thus, saying "Berman did it" can be accurate.

  20. Re:Wrong department. by Seumas · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I just think it's unfortunate that it turned out so bad. I like Scott Bakula and was thrilled that he was going to be the next Trek Captain. They squandered a potentially great character and actor on a poor iteration of a tired series. How you could have a show with someone that made Quantum Leap such a success for so long and turn it into absolute crap is beyond me. It's like being given the Dream Team and losing out to a sixth-grade play-ground team.

    I only watched two episodes of the most recent series. I couldn't get past the stupid intro music. And the infatuation with the hot vulcan chick was juvinile and uninteresting.

    I wasn't that interested in DS9, but from the few episodes I watched, it seemed far superior to Enterprise and Voyager. Voyager has to be the worst. Possibly even worse than the original Star Trek.

    Then again, I'm just not a big fan of Star Trek. Or Star Wars. I like my sci-fi a little more X-Files, Farscape, Millenium, Red-Dwarf, Dr. Who, Blake's Seven, Outer Limits, Twilight Zone-ish... When it comes to television, at least.

    Not to be a prick, but Star Trek always seemed like "sci fi" for the ditch digger, relaxing in his recliner and sweaty wife-beater, tossing back a beer. Sort of like checkers, instead of chess. TNG was unique, because the characters were typically very interesting and you cared about them. What other Trek characters since the Original are so widely known, besides TNG? That's also why Babylon 5 was so great. Aside from the wonderful story of self-sacrifice, hope and destiny - the characters were compelling.

  21. My own Star Trek theory and suggestions by notany · · Score: 2, Funny
    Star Trek is The Bold and the Beautiful for the nerds. There is some differences tough. I have seen good episodes in Star Trek. I haven't heard there is any in BnB.

    Maybe they could make Star Trek miniserie every other year with only good episodes and not of that day to dayt crap. Or they could relax the format a little and ask Quentin Tarantino and others direct episodes like Ltn. Worf and planet of samurai swords.

    --
    Dyslexics have more fnu.
    1. Re:My own Star Trek theory and suggestions by ettlz · · Score: 2, Funny

      Star Trek is The Bold and the Beautiful for the nerds.

      Indeed. Aside from Doctor Who, etc., what other series can jump forward (and back) fifteen years in as many minutes?

      ...ask Quentin Tarantino and others direct episodes like Ltn. Worf and planet of samurai swords.

      Remember that infamous scene from Reservoir Dogs? Right, now substitute with a Ferengi.

  22. Unlikely... by earthbound+kid · · Score: 3, Funny
    "I just came across this thread over on usenet..."
    Pff, unlikely. Netcraft confirms, usenet is dead.
  23. DS9 and B5 by GQuon · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It's generally thought that DS9 was a pretty good series, getting better as it went along and getting a story arc.

    However, JMS might be reluctant to speak about DS9 for a personal reason. JMS had tried to pitch Babylon 5 to a number of studios, such as Paramount, but they wouldn't have it. After years of work, WB finally took up the show. After the Babylon 5 pilot was shot, Paramount just happens to shoot a pilot of their own new show that just happens to be set on a space station, and get the pilot to air just before the Babylon 5 pilot. (Why are some of the sets from the Enterprise?)

    Although this had happened, JMS vocally disliked rivalry between the fans of Trek and B5 and advocated that one could like both.

    DS9 turned out quite different in the end, so the competition from B5 was kind of good for Trek, wasn't it?

    --
    Irene KHAAAAAAN!
  24. Re:Who cares?! by __aatgod8309 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You'd prefer something more enlightened? Another series of Survivor, perhaps?

    If you don't like it, don't watch it. Some of us do like it, and are doing something proactive to see if we can keep it around for at least another season.

  25. Re:Wrong department. by R.Caley · · Score: 3, Interesting
    How you could have a show with someone that made Quantum Leap such a success for so long and turn it into absolute crap is beyond me.

    Well, lets' see... Could the fact that QL was a formulaic remake of Highway to Heaven with smaller hair and some special effects be relevent here?

    People involved in one crap series are often a good indicator that another will be crap IME.

    --
    _O_
    .|<
    The named which can be named is not the true named
  26. Let it die by gooman · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I think I speak for many Trek fans that when I first heard about Enterprise, the possibilities for a prequel series seemed very interesting, and after Voyager we deserved something decent.

    Like many I was worried about Berman being involved. I became more worried when the opening credits feature a dreadful recycled pop song instead of something symphonic. Then the temporal cold war silliness starts. Meanwhile, all along has been little effort to remain consistant with the Trek universe.

    I will admit, I have not laughed so hard in a long time as I did when I saw the Xindi Nazi at the end of last season. But I don't think that was the intended effect.

    For everyone who who is proclaiming this season is much better, how could it get much worse. Paramount and Berman especially should be ashamed at how they have treated such a large and loyal fanbase.

    That said, I'm actually surprised that UPN killed it. They kept Voyager going for seven years and it was horrible most of that time. Enterprise seems like the high spot on their garbage filled network.

    Trek needs a rest. If you want to send someone your money give it to http://www.eff.org/ or some other worthy cause. Don't worry, there will be more Trek, it has made too much money to be ignored forever.

    --
    "Kittens give Morbo gas!"
  27. Bad start by Anonymous+Writer · · Score: 3, Informative

    I can recall a few years ago anxiously waiting to see "Enterprise" for the first time on television, having been a fan of the franchise. I immediately grimaced upon hearing the theme song and new it was going to suck. The electric guitar style theme music was incredibly outdated and wreaked of a routinely formulaic bad-taste Hollywood production. And as I recall, it didn't even have lyrics in that broadcast. The lyrics made it even worse when I eventually heard that vesion, just when I thought it couldn't get any worse.

    That episode started with that one crew-member yapping about how she couldn't sleep because the stars were moving the opposite direction she was used to in her quarters. I kept thinking she was going to whine "but Dawson!" any moment. As for Scott Bakula, he was already typecasted from "Quantum Leap" and didn't fit the role. The whole concept of a series that was supposed to happen before the original series should have been a warning, since one of the big attractions of Star Trek was the fictional technology, but I gave it the benefit of the doubt when I first heard that.

    But they just royally screwed it up. They really overdid the large breasts thing, blatantly pandering to an adolescent demographic. And the writing was awful. As an example, there was that episode where Archer tells a ship of Klingons that they have a defenceless alien vessel riding in the wake of their ship. I recall thinking that no character with half a brain would ever do that and it was just plain ridiculous, even to anyone who wasn't familiar with the franchise. I just recently saw an episode where Archer speaks with a senior Starfleet officer who's uniform had a friggin collar. A jump-suit with a collar. Another mistake. They just keep making them.

    It takes some serious stupidity to screw up a franchise that had such a dedicated fan base as Star Trek, yet the people behind "Enterprise" have managed to do just that. Even if they manage to improve the writing now, bad first impressions last. I don't think this series is worth saving. I think people are clinging onto it out of dedication to the Star Trek franchise. If that is the case, they ought to just cancel this series and come up with a completely new one, or just focus on the movies. I'm personally a fan of the franchise, but it has gotten off-track in a direction I don't care to follow.

  28. From a newish fan by Turn-X+Alphonse · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I've only watched Star Trek "part time". I watch reruns of Voyager and Next Gen quite often and enjoy both of them quite a bit. Even with the old "away team is screwed" or "lookit Jim, theres aliens in that there alien!" plots we seem to see alot, it's kinda like a inside joke now more then anything. But Enterprise made me cringe, I couldn't stand it from day 1. It doesn't FEEL like Star trek, it feels like Krikkit has been renamed "Earth" and they forgot to build their battle robots. All the "OMG TEH VULCANISM IS HOT!" just doesn't seem to work for me as I'm sure many others will agree.

    Some hot nerd + no feel to the series or intresting plots = a failed series.

    If they want to revive Star Trek maybe they should look at continueing the adventures of Picard outside of the movies. The movie cast is starting to dye off or get sick of it, so why not do a short series (straight to DVD would do) or 20 episodes say, restock the crew, fill in some plot holes, give the fans what we want (real Trek) and then continue on the movies for another 5 years (2 movies maybe?) and use it to set up the next Enterprise. In the second film introduce the guy as a trainee, the series would then start 20 years later when the guy has command of his own ship. Picard could be his mentor and would pop up from time to time with other series spin offs to give advice, but rather then the "lets go look at the same 12 sets every 2 weeks!" put it in a war where Earth is being attacked on pass and the new enterprise is trying to defend it untill re-enforcements arrives. Once it's held off and got support it could go on the offence and try and find out information about the attackers (could be mysterious or some rebel faction of a friendly group). Throw in linked episodes (so you meet a character in episode 1-3 and he does some helpful stuff, only to find out in ep 24 he was infact a spy), if it was this well thought out geeks would adore it and the idiot fanbase who watched Enterprise just for the Vulcan ass and edited porn would all get confused and fuck off back to their little hell hole to oogle more poorly edited porn leaving the real Trekkies and geeks to enjoy their new series which isn't 4 sluts doing whatever or yet another cop drama,

    --
    I like muppets.
  29. Hidden message also? by GQuon · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Some think that this is also a hidden message to the fans that their campaign KeepB5Alive has worked.
    The campaign was calling for the original cast to play their roles in the upcomming Babylon 5 theatrical movie "Babylon 5: The Memory of Shadows"

    He was calling for a letter-writing campaign when it's "common knowledge" that those campaigns have become devalued because everybody is doing them these days.

    The retraction also references a TV show for the fall of 2006. A TV show. One that sounds like a done deal. Which probably means that it's a new show that they believe so strongly in that they know it'll be picked up (a B5 universe show maybe), or that it's an existing TV show.

    PS: When it comes to his reading of the poll on ScifiWire: "This whole thing is wildly inaccurate. Rounding errors, ballot stuffers, dynamic IPs, firewalls. If you're using these numbers to do anything important, you're insane."

    --
    Irene KHAAAAAAN!
  30. Don't care.... by Chanc_Gorkon · · Score: 2, Informative

    I don't care what anyone says even JMS. I personally think if there's enough intrest, and if Paramount decides to jump, I think JMS would even re-consider. Paramount is just giving it a rest because Berman and crew that are the current keepers of Star Trek have no frickin idea what to do. They have SO lost sight of what Star Trek is supposed to be that even if they gave it the 2 year rest they are saying, they will still create another steaming pile of goo.

    No, I don't think there's a loss of intrest in Star Trek. the only reason their seems to be is we have not been given something even remotely similar to Star Trek (Enterprise was so different and so bad.....the only reason it was Star Trek was because it had Vulcans, Romulan's and Klingons in it....). The NX-01 is so small scale to what we're used to....the gradioise in scale Enterprise NCC-1701-A-E's were what we WANTED to see. HUGE ships capable of not only exploration, but of defending itself. Why is it that from ther tail end of TNG onward the Federation routinely got thier asses handed to them? In any case, it's more then about the ship. It's about the people. The Best of Both Worlds episodes was some of the best trek there was with Commander Shelby and Riker trying to get Picard back from the Borg. Encounter at Farpoint was so much better of a start then the forgettable episode Enterprise started with. If we actually HAD a good trek series though, it woud likely not be good by our standards now though. There's too much at stake. They gotta try and make trek something many people would like. Unfortunately, that makes it a lousy series. Case in point, a friend of mine who is not a big fan of SciFi religiously watched Enterprise while I lost interest somewhere around 1st season. If I remember right, I caught myself many times watching TNG repeats on the old TNN network! :D Anyway, give me soemthing we can be proud of. Something to compete with Battlestar. I bet if NBC DOES pick up BSG, then maybe, just maybe, Paramount may start working on a Trek series.

    --

    Gorkman

  31. Plenty of good SciFi TV. by ElDuderino44137 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Hey All ...

    I am disappointed w/ what's happened to Enterprise. Both the story lines and the cancellation.

    However, There's plenty of good SciFi TV going on until the franchise gets it's act together.

    Might I suggest SciFi Friday ... SG1 ... Atlantis ... Battlestar Galactica ... Andromeda ... (He he ... that's kind of gone down the toilet too ... but I still watch hopeing it will get better.)

    Cheers,
    -- The Dude

  32. Starch Wreck by ch-chuck · · Score: 4, Funny

    The story of two Chinese laundry truck drivers. Their 5 hour mission, to deliver clean lanudry, to seek out new customers and clients, to Boldly Go® where no chinese laundry truck drivers have gone before!

    --
    try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
  33. If they could be civilians this time. by b00le · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Just because Gene Rodenberry visualized humankind exploring the universe in what seemed to be their pyjamas, all subsequent series have assumed a starship would have to be a military operation with everyone in uniform. This does not actually reflect very well on us.

  34. World Without Trek by Badgerman · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Since it sounds like JMS isn't interested, I wonder more and more if Trek needs a 5-10 year TV hiatus. They've got novels, games, etc., they can still rake in the $$$.

    But after Enterprise (which I think didn't get a fair shake), what can they do? I can't think of anything. The well's dry.

    Give SF a few years without a Trek. See what else pops up - fresh ideas, new takes, old concepts revived. Then perhaps something else can be tried.

    I also wonder - and dare to ask - if the unspeakable could be done. From what I've seen the new Battlestar Galactica is quite good - could someone imagine a reboot of Trek TOS?

    --
    "The Sage treasures Unity and measures all things by it" - Lao Tzu
    1. Re:World Without Trek by Teancum · · Score: 4, Insightful

      While I will beg to differ that the well has dried up for the Star Trek universe, I would have to agree that putting the series into hiatus would be a good idea.

      When I hear director commentaries of Star Trek movies, or listen to actors make comments regarding their involvement with Star Trek, they seemingly have a universal theme: "I never saw Star Trek before I was hired by Paramount."

      It makes me wonder about the writers as well. It is one thing to try and bring in some people from outside the Trekkies fan base to add some new and fresh ideas, but the near universality of the people producing and creating both the movies and the series doing it just as another job speaks volumes about how committed Paramount is to maintaining quality in the series.

      Basically none.

      One of the reasons why the Lord of the Rings was so absolutely fantastic was that the people involved with making those movies were some major fans of the work. Sure, a couple of actors may not have been as familiar with the story as die-hard fanatics, but with the rest of the production team really pulling to make it something special, those actors "caught the vision" and even added more to the passion to get it done.

      I could even use the "Passion of the Christ" produced by Mel Gibson as an example of how somebody with in this case a deep religious conviction bringing something extra to the production that turned what could have been an ordinary movie into something extra ordinary.

      I just don't see that kind of fire coming from Paramount these days. The attitude of William Shatner comments of "Get a Life" to fans is more typical. Star Trek has simply become a cash cow for studio executives, and they really don't care at all about the fan base other than trying to figure out how to get more money from what they percieve as a bunch of suckers. The Trek-based fan web pages legal mess is more proof of how stupid Paramount doesn't really know what they are doing other than trying to make a quick buck.

  35. Correction: Jeremiah's real creator by Cally · · Score: 2, Informative

    Minor corection to the blurb: Jeremiah was a European comic a long time before US TV found out about it. My Yugoslavian friends used to read it in Belgrade in the 1980s.

    --
    "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." -- Goethe
  36. Good comparison by gandell · · Score: 3, Funny
    Good comparison, wrong show. It's actually Small Wonder.

    And the girl creeps me out...monotone robots trying to be cute to gain our trust...they've got to be trying to take over the world! Have we learned nothing?

    --
    Mercy was given to me by Christ...I must give the same to others.
  37. 0.500 not good in the business world by TrueJim · · Score: 2, Insightful

    A 0.500 batting average might be good in the creative world; a writer that churns out really great stuff half the time is probably a really good writer. But the executive producer position is basically a "CEO" of a business, in this case a business that we call "the Star Trek franchise" -- with UPN basically a holding company for many such businesses. When your job is running a business, a batting average of 0.500 is pretty bad.

    --
    I hope that after I die the one word people use to describe me is "resurrected."
  38. With all the "repairs" of last season? Perfect! by kulakovich · · Score: 2, Interesting


    I found it suspicious that this last season spent so much time repairing the general plot and timeline of the Trek universe. And I don't mean in a temporal cold war, either.

    Every. Single. Plot. Was overturned, reversed, or even erased. The Xindi, the temporal cold war, the Vulcan mind-meld disease. Anything new has been put aside for old-school plots. Tellerites? whoa. And no more trips to Klingon, thank you.

    This is the PERFECT OPPORTUNITY for this property to do right by its fans, while attracting an entirely new viewing audience, while bolstering viewership with JMS's current, dedicated fanbase.

    And that means more money for the franchise and Paramount. Lots. Not to mention no further suits from Activision and whoever has bought into this IP.

    Why am I writing this as less a fan and more a business plan? Because that's what UPN needs to hear.

    Now, let's go tell them!

    kulakovich

  39. "Its dead, Jim" by peter303 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Yes Jim, Star Trek has now joined my in the great beyond.
    It died of boredom- redoing the same tired old plots for the tenth time.

  40. Re:I am getting sick of Berman.... by Snaller · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ... tripe on Slashdot. People go on and on about how "It has all been downhill since TNG" and it has all been Berman's fault, etc.

    But it is - he is in charge, ego he is to blame.

    For one thing, Roddenberry died midway through TNG.

    Lies. Roddenberry died at the end of season 5.
    Berman was basically the man at the helm for what was argueable the best portion of the series, the last 3 seasons.

    1: He was mostly working with the talent Roddenberry had hired.
    2: He didn't have the guts to suddenly change TNG to something else in the middle of the series (like he let them do with DS9)

    Ie, he just continued on the course set by Roddenberry.

    For another, DS9 (the first series run soley by Berman) was actually very good (once it got going - the first season or two were quite.. icky).

    So DS9 became better once Berman withdrew from day to day running of the series and started to focus on Voayger - funny that. Not to mention again, he had Ira Steven Behr("Dark Angel"),Michael Piller("Dead Zone") , Ronald Moore("Battlestar Galactica") to help him. I entirely suspect he was out having lunch with management while they were writing.

    Aside from all this - you people seem to believe that the whole series lives and dies by Berman's word. Shouldn't some of the blame be put on the writers? The writers are the ones coming up with the same old crap over and over again.

    Yeah, except: HE HIRES THE WRITERS, his blame.

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  41. Expensive Props and Poor Writing by bfline · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Star Trek has suffered from poor writing since after TNG. Even Deep Space Nine still had some good plots that made you interested. Another problem with Enterprise is that they have bores like Trip and Malcom. I loved B5. Loved it. I am sure JMS would make sure that the writing wasn't lame. How? Because with little money to work with he concentrated on the storylines. I think they should stop spending so much money on the props, sets, makeup, etc., and start spending it on the writing. I also loved the original Trek which became classic because of the writing again, certainly not the props.

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  42. Re:Great idea, Bad Implementation... by cheesybagel · · Score: 3, Insightful
    The new Battlestar Galactica is good, but the plot doesn't match Babylon 5's by a long shot. Babylon 5 is an epic story. Battlestar Galactica attempts to be one, but at the same time we see characters doing erratic out of character things a lot of the time. There are many plot holes and inconsistencies.

    Captain Adama's speech in the pilots for example was completely ridiculous. Why do we even deserve to live? Was that supposed to inspire anyone? Crap, if any real military leaders ever did that, their soldiers would be too dispirited to fight.

    Then you have the fact that the Cylons are attempting to cross-breed with Humans. But if they wanted that so much, why did they try to wipe all the Humans out with nukes, *before* getting their hybrid? It makes no sense. If they wanted to nuke all the colonies, and destroy military ships, plus evading civilian ships, how could they ever get a cross-breed?

    The fact that Baltar got too tired from doing tests, so he stopped testing people was also sheer nonsense. Why didn't he just get *someone else* to do the hard labour of testing? I mean, he was supposed to have an assistant already, plus a nuclear warhead, I doubt he would not be granted spare personnel. Not to mention: who is doing the testing (supposed to take man-years) now since he seems to be only doing political work since he got to be Vice-President?

    There is some good stuff in there of course. I like this Baltar better than the old Baltar in the original series. The old Baltar made absolutely no sense at all.

  43. SG1 and Atlantis: Every Alien Speaks English no UT by bfline · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Might I suggest SciFi Friday ... SG1 ... Atlantis ... Battlestar Galactica

    I agree. I watch SciFi Friday, although I wish it was on a different night. SG1 and Atlantis are great shows and I have followed every episode. At one time I even bought Showtime just to get SG1 and have been glad SciFi bought it so I could cancel Showtime.

    My biggest gripe: Every Alien they meet speaks English. At least with Trek you had the Universal Translator. With SG1 and Atlantis they completely ignore this. After many episodes it really bothers me.

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  44. Continuity by SeanDuggan · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Except that I don't think Babylon 5 really worked that much like that. I was a casual viewer, watched an episode here or there when it was available and at a convenient time (I remember my brother at one point bemoaning that it was airing at a 1 AM time slot) and while I found later I had missed some subtexts, it was still an entertaining story. The characters and races are well enough defined that you get some idea from the get-go. (Although I will admit that I was confused as to who G'Kar was supposed to be... I had him pegged as a generic warrior-type. It wasn't until much later that I realized the poet and prophet bits)

    Just so that we're not exclusively on Babylon 5, Buffy the Vampire Slayer did a decent job at this too. While there was a definite story going on that had been planned out (and included a large number of references towards and fro in the timeline) and things could change quite drastically (Spike's status as enemy, then friend, then enemy, then lover, then psychotic nutcase actually made some sense in the course of the series), you could pick up any one episode and enjoy what was going on. In my opinion, any good TV show or book series, should be like that, enough going on that it rewards people who site down and view it all, enough hints to allow people to step in at the middle, and subtle enough hints that people who are watching all the way through don't get annoyed at the repeated redundancy.

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    1. Re:Continuity by snorklewacker · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > Just so that we're not exclusively on Babylon 5, Buffy the Vampire Slayer did a decent job at this too.

      Most certainly. And unlike JMS, Joss Whedon can write characters. In fact, he does characters well, and doesn't do so hot with story arcs, but B5's story arc was really, well, lame. B5 got a free pass because it was sci-fi, but the acting for the most part was truly awful, verging on Xena/Hercules quality.

      As for G'Kar, he represented a successful bit of character evolution. The interplay between him and Londo really made the show for me. Wooden lifeless characters like Morden and Ivonava never did it for me. Delenn and Sheridan could have been all right, except I could never get over the mimbari baby talk ("the religious caste", "the shadows"), nor her harsh hissing accent.

      Someone needs to create some sci-fi Frankenproducer with the best qualities of Chris Carter, JMS, and Joss Whedon. Maybe even some Berman. There's got to be something redeeming about Berman.

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    2. Re:Continuity by Bothari · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Finally someone with similar opinions. I was wondering if is was the only one who thought most of JMS's characters have the "depth of a bird-bath" (with apologies to Crosby...).

      Gkar and Londo being the wonderfull exception: I must confess that long after I stopped caring what the outcome of the "war of the shadows" (huuUUUHHhhh ... scary) would be, i kept on making an effort to watch the show due to the character development in these two.

      Londo starting out as the friendly and amiable buffoon , his change due to his ambition and his eventual redemption... or G'kar starting out as little more than a bully, finding out slowly by hints that there was more to him and his eventual "growing-up"...

  45. i Don't get it by Dillusionary · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This doesn't make any sense to me. I've been a big star trek fan for my whole life, this Enterprise just sucked... I mean really sucked from the beginning intro song all the way to the end of each show. There is a reason it's going off the air you know....

  46. funny foreheaded aliens by gobbo · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Great, one thing I appreciated about JMS was his resistance to the hollywood notion that aliens -- a whole galaxy of them -- are pretty much all white people with convoluted foreheads and a different arrangement of internal organs.

    I mean, I know that SF on TV is pretty much a kind of stage-play allegory, but it all feels so grounded in a '60s kind of shiny smarmy middle-class american morality (yes, I know all about demographics, I'm a director/producer). JMS's B5 brought a touch of biological diversity into the vidiotic galaxy.

    What I would really like is a SF series that takes nanotech and extreme body customization into human -- not just evil borg -- society. One that has Samuel Delaney's sense of cultural development, Ridley Scott's visual and human grittiness, and KS Robinson's sense of the march of history. B5 had some of all that, but some truly cheesy interludes and unconvincing dialogue, and in the end fell back frequently to rely on the hollywood galactic tropes, so he should be able to cope in the ST version of 'future.' Here's hoping he can move the franchise into something more... contemporary.

  47. Re:SG1 and Atlantis: Every Alien Speaks English no by bfline · · Score: 2, Informative

    I have seen every episode and don't recall one time they have resolved the English problem. GateWorld is a good site. (I vaguely recall them making a joke about the English problem once. Does anyone remember what episode that was?) Even the show Farscape had a great idea with injecting the translator microbe. Not to mention hordes of novels with interesting ideas. Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy had the Babel fish worm. I just cannot understand why Stargate cannot come up with any idea of how to explain them understanding Alien speak. I think they realize it is to late to explain it now. Otherwise, a terrific show, SG1, that hasn't lost any humor over the years either.

    Trek must work on having great storylines, new ideas, more Romulans, things it's been lacking. I'd like to see Star Trek back to the level it should be someday. I think it will be back because it's how we envision the future to be.

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  48. Let it die already. Trek needs a rest. by 35ft_twinkie · · Score: 2, Funny

    William Shatner: You know, before I answer any more questions there's something I wanted to say. Having received all your letters over the years, and I've spoken to many of you, and some of you have traveled... y'know... hundreds of miles to be here, I'd just like to say... GET A LIFE, will you people? I mean, for crying out loud, it's just a TV show! I mean, look at you, look at the way you're dressed! You've turned an enjoyable little job, that I did as a lark for a few years, into a COLOSSAL WASTE OF TIME!

    [ a crowd of shocked and dismayed Trekkies.... ]

    I mean, how old are you people? What have you done with yourselves?

    [ to "Ears" ] You, you must be almost 30... have you ever kissed a girl?

    [ "Ears" hangs his head ]

    I didn't think so! There's a whole world out there! When I was your age, I didn't watch television! I LIVED! So... move out of your parent's basements! And get your own apartments and GROW THE HELL UP! I mean, it's just a TV show dammit, IT'S JUST A TV SHOW!

    Charlie: Are- are you saying then that we should pay more attention to the movies?

    William Shatner: NO!!! THAT'S NOT WHAT I'M SAYING AT ALL!!! HEY, YOU GUYS ARE... THE LAMEST BUNCH... I'VE NEVER SEEN... [ walks away from podium ] I can't believe these people... I mean, I really can't understand what's....

  49. JMS offer rescinded by zurkog · · Score: 4, Informative
    As great as a JMS-written Trek might be, he just rescinded his offer:

    Trekweb

    Actually...belay everything I just said.

    In the 24 hours between the time I composed the prior note, and sent it, and it made its way through the moderation software, two things happened:

    1) I heard from a trusted source that Paramount is giving the Trek TV world a rest for maybe one to two years, depending on circumstances, no matter who would come along to run it. So it's not right to have folks putting in time doing something that ultimately would be pointless, I don't think that's a proper use of anybody's time.

    2) At the same time as the above, an offer came in to run a new TV series for fall of '06, and since there's no way anything Trek can happen in the interim, I've said yes (now we have to negotiate the deal, but that should be fairly straightforward).

    So on two counts, the whole thing is kind of moot.

    We can reconvene a year or two down the road to see where this takes us, but in the interim...my apologies for waking everybody up in the middle of the night.

    As you were.

    Thanks and with great chagrinedness --

    jms
  50. Or Star Trek reality TV! by Snaller · · Score: 4, Funny
    The Star Trek Amazing Race!

    11 teams of people with an existing relationship will race around federation worlds solving problems and seeing improbable sights.

    The teams are:

    Captains Picard and Riker.

    Riker has too much facial hair and Picard has none!

    Dr. Crusher and all powerful son being Wesley Crusher.

    Dr. Crusher can't cure the common cold because it has been cured, and Wesley Crusher can bring it back with a snap of his fingers!

    Lt. Commander Tuvok and Captain Kathryn Janeway

    He's logical and she isn't!

    The Doctor and The Doctor

    One's a hologram and another is a possibly copyright infringing timelord!

    Lt. Ezri Dax and Dr. Phlox

    She's a hottie and he's nottie!

    Captain Jonathan Archer and Porthos

    One is a dumb unreasoning animal the other is a beagle!

    Constable Odo and Seven Of Nine

    He's a shapeshifter and you'd like to shift her shapes!

    Chief Miles O'Brien and Lt. Cmdr. Data

    One will fix your bits and the other is full of them!

    Sub-Commander T'Pol and Tasha Yar

    One is an expert on decon gel and the other is back from hell!

    Lt. Cmdr. Deanna Troi and Commander Kira Nerys

    One is a counsellor the other needs one!

    Guinan Ensign Hoshi Sato

    One speaks in riddles the other speak riddle!


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  51. Please don't write it yourself JMS by Illserve · · Score: 2

    You're good with plot arcs, and managing huge projects.

    But you are a *terrible* writer!

    Your dialogue is so unsubtle it is akin to be smacked in the face by a hallibut every time someone opens their mouth.

    Hire
    someone
    else

  52. Not Gonna Happen - Unfortunately by Hellcaster · · Score: 2, Informative

    From Comic Writer Warren Ellis' mailing list:

    ---------------
    ""Joe Straczynski suggested his fans suggest to
    Paramount that he and Bryce Zabel be hired to
    perform their revival of the Star Trek franchise.
    Joe briefly outlined it to me over lunch in
    Vancouver last summer (because I am so
    fucking jetset and famous, me), and it sounded
    like it could make entertaining TV.

    Today, Joe's asking people to stop, because
    he has been made aware that Paramount are
    intending to rest Trek for an indefinite period --
    "a year or two" -- and he's just taken a
    showrunner gig elsewhere for a show that
    launches late 2006. Which, being "a year or
    two" away, means he couldn't do his Trek
    if the idea were picked up.""