Can India Become A Knowledge Superpower?

krsmathews writes " New Scientist, in its latest issue, has a special report on India. It provocatively calls India the next knowledge superpower, though in a introductory story the caveats are laid out. It's a reasonably comprehensive look at India's high-tech research, pharma, bio-tech, space, and nuclear industries. The U.S. R&D expenditure is bigger than the next five countries put together, and India is nowhere in the picture. "

Comments

India R&D

[Fred_A]

Hah ! I'm sure Indian researchers had personal history deletion patented *years* ago.

off-shoring

[kloidster]

What I've been saying all along. We are telling brain-power to stay over there in India, rather than come over here to the United States. I wonder what it would be like if people like Vinod Khosla were told to work over there and don't come here to innovate.

What about China?

[mOoZik]

It has everything going for it. Growing economy, a collection of research labs of U.S. and domestic companies, and a desire to pace with and outdo anything the West can throw at it. I'd put my money on China before I put it on India.

Re:What about China?

[aacool]

Democracy and free markets seem to be better, in the long run, at fostering growth than totalitarian regimes, IMHO

Re:What about China?

[mOoZik]

You are forgetting that China doesn't fit in the traditional Communist model, at least not economically. How many Communist governments have had economies growing at the pace that China is experiencing at this time? Maybe the Soviet Union in the first couple of decades, but clearly China is an exception, in that it mixes a Communist government with a quasi-capitalist economic system. And trends seem to indicate that China will increasingly become more democratic and capitalistic.

Re:What about China?

[kaalamaadan]

In the absence of any corrective measures, I am sure even India can be like China. It has been acquiring a steady 6-7% growth rate for the past 5 years. That may not sound impressive next to China, but it is impressive when you consider that it is the *consensus* growth rate - not the huge urban-rural divide that China touts as progress.

As a case in point, In Andhra Pradesh, the previous Chief Minister, Chandrababu Naidu transformed Hyderabad from nowhere to one of the centres of the tech glitz in India. Meanwhile, in the villages, Andhra farmers were in miserable condition - 3000 farmers committed suicide in the past four years. The farmers never forgave; Come election time, they did not forget to cast their vote. Out went Chandrababu. It was beautiful to see democracy triumph over J.P. Morgan. The same thing happened in the neigbouring Bangalore.

There cannot be glitzy progress ignoring 75% of the people.

Of course, this means that in the eyes of the financial analysts, India is not as lucrative as China. But, I am proud of the progress that my country is making. At least, we don't have to sweep unpleasant facts under the carpet.

Re:What about China?

[sfjoe]

I'd put my money on China before I put it on India.

That remains to be seen. China's healthcare system is collapsing and, along with massive pollution, threatening to put a damper on much of the expected growth (this is Morgan-Stanley speaking, not me). China's problems reallly have no precedent so it's too soon to say whether they will be able to become anything more than a massive consumer.

Re:What about China?

[antifoidulus]

You are ignoring the fact that yeah, things are going great now, but what is going to happen when things start to go south? They cannot grow forever, and nobody knows how the system will work when things aren't so rosy. Also, if you look at Chinese history, you will see a dizzying cycle of amazing highs where China really is the "Middle Kingdom" and dominates the region, and then almost instantaneously crashes and looks only inward.
Time will tell if this government is any different.

Re:What about China?

[the eric conspiracy]

Mod parent up. China is still largely a centrally managed economy on the macro level with policies set for political reasons, not based on sound principles. China has been stinting development of infrastructure so badly that there are problems expanding manufacturing due to power shortages. Lack of investment in capital has meant that China is actually losing manufacturing jobs faster than any other country on earth to more modernized nations because automation will always will out against manual labor once wages reach any reasonable level.

With massive foreign loans and suicidally low currency valuations in order to stimulate exports China has backed itself into a trap where it must let currency valuations rise to pay off debt and raise capital for infrastructure investment, yet it cannot afford to let valuations rise because that will destroy it's export driven economy.

Anyone who has really studied the current Chinese economy realizes that they are headed for a period of retrenchment, if not an out-and-out recession/depression in the not too distant future.

Re:What about China?

[flyingsquid]

You are forgetting that China doesn't fit in the traditional Communist model, at least not economically.

Because, as the Economist points out, they are only nominally communist. They're actually fascist- fairly free markets but centralized, authoritarian political control- although the Economist (looking at the glass as half full) says that's a good thing, since fascist countries can make a successful transition to a Western model. Spain made the transition for instance. As awful as it sounds, cracking down on the students may have been necessary. Russia broke down the old system, but with nothing to replace it, oligarchs and crime lords took over and people have generally been worse off than under communism. Likewise, the American attempt to knock down Iraq has proven to be misguided, since they had no plan for what was going to follow it. Destroying the old order is easy. Building the new one is what's hard. China's changing, but in a stepwise evolutionary fashion rather than an all-at-once revolutionary fashion. The result is that freedoms will be slow in coming- but the problems that accompany transition to a more Western style government can be taken one at a time, instead of all at once.

Re:What about China?

[Valar]

"As awful as it sounds, cracking down on the students may have been necessary. Russia broke down the old system, but with nothing to replace it,..."

I'm sure that is what the chinese government had in mind when they ordered the student revolts put down brutally.

Re:What about China?

[YrWrstNtmr]

Likewise, the American attempt to knock down Iraq has proven to be misguided, since they had no plan for what was going to follow it.

Jebus! The results from the first relatively free Iraqi election only came in a few days ago. Let's give the process some time to work out before it's declared 'proven to be misguided'.

It's OK for freedoms in China to be "slow in coming", but not in Iraq? Why?

Re:What about China?

[Anonymous Coward]

YS Rajasekhara Reddy (the new CM in power after Naidu was ousted) is no better. Ask anyone who is living in an AP village.

He promised free electricity, free water, more rural funding (via loans and such), and so on. He delivered nothing. It was just two days ago that I spoke with a farmer from Ongole who was forced to move to a city into a life of manual labour. The suicides have not stopped, they have just been hushed up.

Naidu did not discourage rural AP. He has, in fact, done more for them than any of the previous CMs. He has never ignored it.

How is this relevant? Naidu's policies affected everyone in the state directly (positively) through a "trickle down" effect (as I have heard it called). This can be done at the national scale. All this requires is a bit of backing from the government in making the country more lucrative to investment, and encouraging education at all levels. Do not ever make the mistake of putting someone in power who claim they want the best for rural India. History has shown that they are lying. Oh wait, it's too late. We already voted the Congress into power.

And BTW, it was during Naidu's tenure that my grandparents in Rajahmundry (small rural town near visakhapatnam) had access to the internet for the first time. I've stayed there for a while, so I'm not talking nonsense. Now all the place has is 8-hour-long blackouts and a severe water shortage (even though they have recorded the highest rainfall over the past few years this year)

Re:What about China?

[CodeBuster]

As awful as it sounds, cracking down on the students may have been necessary.

They machine gunned crowds of unarmed civilians and ran them over with tanks...Would you consider that to be a prudent and necessary step?

Re:What about China?

[nickco3]

Democracy and free markets seem to be better, in the long run, at fostering growth than totalitarian regimes, IMHO

Unfortunately, much as a I want to agree with you, there is no strong correlation between democracy and economic growth.

For example, 40 out of 48 African nations have held multiparty elections since 1990. At election time, they mostly swap one corrupt bunch for a different one. There is little sign of any democracy-dividend there.

At the other extreme, there are prosperous, sort-of-free-market, definately authoritarian places like Singapore, Malaysia, and Hong Kong. In Europe in the 1930s, the fascist countries delivered much more impressive growth than the democracies.

The real drivers seem to be low levels of corruption and proper law enforcement. It isn't particularly related to how often people go to the polls.

Re:What about China?

[kevinbr]

Well we dropped cluster bombs and destroyed Fallujah and killed ( estimated by Lancet study) 100,000 Iraqis.

This is slightly worse than Tianamen Square.

Was this prudent? Different countries evolve at different paces. We in the US have a fine history of enslavement, genocide ( Indians ), child labor,dropping nuclear bombs on civilians, firebombing civlians etc etc etc.

At the time it was felt nessasary to enslave Africans to lower labor costs. Prudent business practice?

We are in no position ever to judge other nations.

Our President only now speaks to invited supporters with no protesters allowed near. The police brutally beat and suppress dissent. Is this prudent?

Re:What about China?

[asonthebadone]

The Lancet study is bogus as it is based on flawed sampling of the data. To arrive at the figure of 100,000 Iraqi dead, Lancet simply *interviewed* 998 families in 33 communities. The resulting extrapolated death toll ranged from 8,000 to 194,000. Well done.

Lancet Civilian Death Report Kills the Truth

Re:What about China?

[Citizen of Earth]

We in the US have a fine history of enslavement, genocide ( Indians ), child labor,dropping nuclear bombs on civilians, firebombing civlians etc etc etc.

You have absolutely nothing on totalitarian regimes. They kill civilians by the tens of millions while pacifists cheer them on (well, politely ask them to stop).

The police brutally beat and suppress dissent.

So, are the cops knocking at your door right now, or you just spouting the usual rhetorical histrionics?

Re:What about China?

[YrWrstNtmr]

We've been giving it 2 years now!

2 years. How long did the same process take in Japan and Germany after WWII? How long did it take for the Soviet Union/Russia to move away from pseudocommunism to whatever it is they have now?
When do YOU think the elections should have been held? What day would have been acceptable to you?

If it had gone much faster, people would be bitching that the Iraqis were not given enough time to hold the election.

I do not agree with how this second half of the 13 year long conflict got started. But now that the US has gone down this road, it must be seen to completion. Anything else would be far more cruel than what is going on now.

Re:What about China?

[AstroDrabb]

Likewise, the American attempt to knock down Iraq has prove to be misguided, since they had no plan for what was going to follow it. Destroying the old order is easy. Building the new one is what's hard.

What idiots modded this crap "Insightful"? It is not like the Iraqi invasion took place 20 years ago and Iraq is still struggling to rebuild. The "war" in Iraq isn't totally over yet, and yet, the nation of Iraq has had their first ever democratic elections! A huge percentage of the Iraqi people came out to vote, even under the threat of terrorist attacks on them if they voted. I personally consider that an incredible achievement. I would personally like to see you lead a nation that removes a horrid dictator, and in practically no time turn around and hold a democratic election for president/prime minister with such a huge turn out. The achievements in Iraq have been great IMO. Setting up a true democratic government is the most important thing right now. The next phase would be to educate the people on the new government. It will of course take years to get people used to a new way of life and freedom and it will be hard. However, freedom and democracy will win. It will be a long-haul for the U.S.A to make sure that democracy takes place in Iraq and to ensure that no radical group comes back to power.

I have read many articles/post about how non-Americans couldn't understand how the majority of US citizens could vote for Bush. However, I now know why they did. The US citizens _knew_ from our own history that it does take resolve to make these long-term changes and make them last. Electing a very week candidate such as Kerry would have brought Iraq to its knees and had Iraq ruled by some other radical group in a matter of months or years. Building a nation and especially a world based on democracy sadly takes takes blood and years, yet the final outcome is alway worth the price.

I served in the U.S.M.C. I am a Conservative Christian, yet I am a Libertarian. However, I really have been amazed at how things are turning out for the people of Iraq. After all, the main focus should be "The People". I really hope they do set up the first democracy in Iraq and take over their own nation. You many come down on democracy all you want. However, democracy is truly the most peaceful system around. Most nations that deal with one another in a democratic fashion will almost never resort to war, look at the U.S.A and most nations in Europe. If the world converted to democracy over-night it would not become perfect, but I doubt war would happen again. Under a democratic world, there really is no reason for war.

Re:What about China?

[kevinbr]

And when will the good American people who were solid with Bush bring freedom to Sudan and Zimbabwe?

You see in the macro position, your position makes no sense. Millions have died in the Sudan but there is no Oil. Zimbabwe has much death and repesssion but there is no Oil. Both were/are worse in terms of human suffering than Iraq was.

The Sudan was not threatening to sell products in Euros ( not thet they have that much to sell). Your current living standard depends on the world using the Dollar as a reserve currency. Oil is denominated in Dollars. Iraq threatened the US not with Weapons but with ripping asunder the preeminent position where Saudis sell Oil in Dollars not Euros or Rubles.

We are not in Iraq for Democracy. That is the fig leaf you choose to buy into.

You rambling about democracy and war are that....ramblings. We as Americans have a fine history of using war to impose our desires on other nations.

When it became clear that Ho Chi Mhin would win a democratic vote in Vietnam, we pulled out of supporting any vote and forced the division of the country and propped up a corrupt leader (Diem ) and called this abberation democracy. We then killed millions of Vietnamese and Cambodians to prop up our distortion of democracy.

You need some new history books.

India and China are using trade to defeat us. If we are threatened with economic defeat we will use military force.

Some questions...

[aendeuryu]

The US R&D expenditure is bigger than the next five countries put together, and India is nowhere in the picture.

Granted, that's impressive spending, but how much of this has to do with a higher overall cost of living in the US, and therefore, higher salaries for your workers? Also, how much of that spending is directly related to the military?

Just wondering how much overall dollar output directly relates to one's place on the R&D totem pole.

And the U.S. is so smart

[Anonymous Coward]

that the population believes that a supernatural being being created man by pointing a finger and created woman from a rib of that man.

Much better.

Re:And the U.S. is so smart

[djplurvert]

That's only in indiana where they tried to get a law passed for a more sensible definition of pi. Every other american is WELL aware that man was made by aliens.

Maybe...not.

[coKestar]

No nation where cows do not fear Ronald McDonald cannot be trusted!

The diaspora already is

[__aadkms7016]

The Indian diaspora, like the China diaspora, is already a knowledge superpower -- as a look at the nationalities of the IEEE Fellows, the US NAS and NAE, and the equivalent academies in other countries will attest. All we're discussing here is the current mailing address of the talent.

Re:The diaspora already is

[the eric conspiracy]

Talent knows no geographical boundaries. The key is that it is a diaspora, not an Indian or Chinese institution. For example, despite the vast talent pool in the Chinese population, no Chinese citizen has ever won a Nobel Prize, Those prizes have gone to members of the diaspora working in western institutions.

Until India and China build institutions comparable to the best in the west they will never become true knowledge superpowers.

Innovation as well as knowledge??

[sfjoe]

The one area where the USA has excelled over the decades is in cooking up innovative ideas and turning them into profitable businesses. The basic model of education in the USA has been based in large part on creative thinking. As tax-cut mania takes over and US schools do less and less educating, we can expect to see other countries start catching up in the area of innovation. However, since most places, India included, prize rote memorization as the best way to educate, I can't see them ever turning out large numbers of innovators the way the US has.

Re:Innovation as well as knowledge??

[rsidd]

However, since most places, India included, prize rote memorization as the best way to educate,

Rubbish. While US school boards are still arguing about whether to teach evolution in schools, US school students are being creamed in science and math competitions worldwide. Where the US scores is in university education, especially at the graduate level. As you go up the educational ladder in the better universities in the US, the proportion of foreigners steadily increases, exceeding 50% in many departments at the postdoc and faculty level. People are still going to the US for graduate study and postdoctoral work (though even there, reportedly numbers from Asia have fallen over 25% in the last year or two). What's changed is they're not hanging on in the US after that: they're going back home.

Re:Innovation as well as knowledge??

[mbkennel]

I'm an academic researcher professionally.

The facts are that the USA recruits students heavily internationally as well as faculty, to a degree that other major universities do not reciprocate.

It is rather difficult, for instance, for a student from the USA to attend a major research university in Europe (much less Japan or China though the language problems are far more difficult).

In faculty hiring, again the USA opens the pool to everybody, but nearly all other nations significantly favor their own (in Europe, it is usually pan-European favoritism).

In the USA, the Universities get significantly more money from foreign students (they have to pay full tuition), and in addition, the foreign students are entirely dependent on staying in the good graces of their department and advisor in order to avoid being deported. Hence they are favored institutionally and professionally.

The foreign students often get their own source of money from their own governments to study in the USA. There is far less of this available for US students to study abroad---at least for lengthy graduate technical education as opposed to one semester of "personal enrichment".

However, the primary reasons the foreigners are going back is very simple: there are jobs for scientists overseas, and there are fewer and fewer here, most especially if you don't want to work on new ways to kill or spy on people.

Lack of competitiveness in the USA is NOT in technical education, it is in technical employment!

US students go for technical education precisely to the level the rewards are worth the very heavy costs.

Beefing up primary and college science education only will generate only more disillusioned graduate students, not more US productivity.

Industrial labs are sending jobs to India and deleting them in the US. Indian students don't need a work permit to work in India---they are citizens.

Re:Innovation as well as knowledge??

[northcat]

However, since most places, India included, prize rote memorization as the best way to educate, I can't see them ever turning out large numbers of innovators the way the US has.

I live in India. I can't begin to describe how much I agree with this. Our education system turns us into machines. Computers. By "education system" i mean not only the official curriculum part of education, but also the way the teachers teach us, and how kids and parents approach learning (parents play a big role in the education, employment and general future of their children. rather too big.)Once we are taught something our minds become completely confined to whatever is taught to us. We can process the input given to us and give output very well. But we can't do anything beyond that. I'm struggling for words here... It's like education is like software development for us. We are computer programs, we are programmed to do certain things. We do that very well, but we can't do any thinking or innovation of our own. And if we have to do something new, another software module has to be added to our brains to handle this new task. If something needs to be done for which a module hasn't been developed yet and it can't be implemented using the logic of the computers that are our brains, then we fail, we can't do it. Softare development (the kind done by Indian offshoring companies) has now developed to a large extent. There already rules and methods on how to do it. These rules are taught to us and we can succefully use these rules and thus offshoring industry is blooming here. But things that require a lot of innovation haven't reached India yet. Sure R&D will reach India (it's already started) but only because the rules have started to develop. I suppose "true" innovation will never reach here, since you can't really make rules for 'innovation'.

And?

[mindstormpt]

The US R&D expenditure is bigger than the next five countries put together, and India is nowhere in the picture.

Money != Brains.

It does seem that Money = Arrogance though.

Corporate funding for R&D in school

[1tsm3]

As long as the corporate funding for R&D in schools is as low as it is now in India, I don't think India (not Indians) will ever become a Knowledge superpower. I'm an Indian who is now in the U.S. It's just amazing on how many new things the undergrads in the US can work on when compared to how little the grads in India can work on. The difference is in extremes. Here in the U.S, even small univs undergrad team builds solar cars, in India, even the grads don't get enough money to work on something useful. Most of it is theory in India. Sad, but true. I wish corporates in India put enough money into R&D in Indian schools.

cost of doing business

[freshfromthevat]

In my experience (USA working with OEMs doing high tech products) the cost of doing business with Indian Engineers is too high. They have a long (45 day) import delay for prototype hardware. The engineers who hire with companies I'm familiar with stay for training and then jump jobs. The communications difficulties (time shifted from USA offices) and language/cultural difficulties (different holidays, different work culture) make doing business awkward and less efficient than working with rural Americans (for instance).

Eventually Indian companies will run their own engineers and see some efficiencies that way. Then USA OEMs could see some serious competition. The only thing that would hold Indian OEMs back is internal costs of doing business, duties, taxes, crime, limitations on cooperation due to secrecy, government corruption, etc.. . Like here in the USA. The top dog world wide is going to be the country with the greatest efficiencies of doing business. Time will tell.

I liked this one...

[bogaboga]

[...]The US R&D expenditure is bigger than the next five countries put together, and India is nowhere in the picture."

This I should mention includes inflated costs and bribes for bureaucrats. The Russians do much more and produce very durable space and nuclear equipment for less than one-third of our cost as Americans. This same reasoning presumes that if an individual lives on less than a dollar a day, they must be very badly off. I visited Uganda where a meal costing 4 US dollars was more than enough for me for two days!

Yes, India can and will be superpower whether we like it or not. It's not how much money one spends guys. The latest Russian aircraft costs less than half as much as our most advanced one, yet delivers more power and is even easily maintained. I wish our politicians get this into their heads.

Re:I liked this one...

[saigon_from_europe]

The latest Russian aircraft costs less than half as much as our most advanced one, yet delivers more power and is even easily maintained.

Most interesting devices that you can see from former USSR are devices made in 70s - early 80s. After that period, West run far further than Russians were able to follow.

What is exciting in their design is simplicity, and maintainance. With lack of resources, their design had to be robust. You may laugh on Ladas, but Lada Niva, Russian SUV is a good car. Russian mechanical watches, optical devices were pretty robust.

Their military equipment followed these rules, too (and I am officer in reserve). Unfortunately, it does not mean that their devices are efficient (as they always had a lot of cheap fuel - there is even a joke in Serbia told for someones who spends too much - "to spend like Russian vehicle"). It does not mean they are ecological - all their eqiupment has NiCd batteries, but NiCd batteries are best (exluding being highly toxic).

Compare AK47 (ok, it is a bit old design - from '47 as its name says) with M4 (I had both of them in my hands). M4 is subtle, but AK is robust. It means that it can be mass-produced with inexpirienced technicians. M4 requires a lot of maintance, AK does not. Result - M4 is less heavy, which is good for its purpose, but most typical problem with AK can be solved using your boot or even hammer (ok, handle, not the head). Don't try that on M4.

Unfortunately, I think that these two design patterns will tend toward each other, ot more precisely, that Russian model will follow Western one. Lack of some resources, with cheap other resources (in Russian case, metal and oil) gives inovative ideas. But now, when resources cost everywhere more or less the same, designs will everywhere be the same.

I would still suggest, just as a part of education, every engeener to take one standardly built device with one comparable device developed while resources were expensive. Just like AK - M4 comparison. Or, for instance, study all devices made by soldiers on front lines, or ilegal devices designed by prisoners. There is a lot to learn.

Sucess isn't garanteed

[FiReaNGeL]

From what I'm seeing, it seems to me that India WANTS to be a knowledge superpower. Following the massive outsourcing of IT to their country, they are seeking for ways to do it again in other hot fields, such as bioinformatics, drug development, etc. As the poster suggested, I think they are spreading their resources too thin. Will they succeed? Only time will tell. But from what I'm seeing on most bioinformatics related boards, most young Indians wanting to get in the field are not enough informed; most of the time, they want to study in bioinformatics without knowing anything about it, just because they've been promised jobs (it's a hot topic, you know?). Most of them don't speak English fluently too, which doesn't help us informing them.

Typical example taken from the Bioplanet forum:

"hi everybody,
i did my b.sc. in biotechnology(with 78%) from India & presently doing PG diploma in bioinformatics, but i confuse what will better for me, shall i do m.sc.. But i want job,so please help me by sending information about biotechnology & good colleges for doing m.sc. in Biotechnology & finally give me your valuable suggestion. ................Thankyou."

Tons of posts like this one on bioinformatics boards, daily. I hope this represent a minority and that most Indians are better informed. There's a difference between outsourced tech support, where what you answer to the client or whether you fix his problem doesn't really matter, and being a 'knowledge superpower'. Now don't get me wrong, I hope that they'll succeed; developing fields like bioinformatics (and R&D in general) can always use more brainpower, and I don't care where it'll come from. But R&D needs money too... and tons of it.

It's a gamble India is taking with this. No guarantee of success, but at least they're trying, investing in the future.

Best of both worlds?

[Doc Ruby]

But how much of that US R&D expense is being spent in India, and how much of the produced knowledge will stay in India?

A growing kid

[argoff]

I like to look at India like my precious daughter. She is growing 5 times faster than I am now, but she will likely not grow taller than I for quite awhile. The fundamental things holding back the USA are taxes, regulations, intellectual "property" restrictions, and just plain too much restrained freedom.

Eventually India will reach these barriers too, and so will the rest of the world until someone finds out how to persue and implement the "next generation" of freedoms. So even though they might eventually outsize the US because of sheer population - they will probably not surpass it per/capita until the next frontier of freedom is reached. (it will probably be ocean based communities in international waters)

As Someone who just came back from India...

[AnyLoveIsGoodLove]

I took a trip to the south of India (Kerala, Banglore, and Channai (Madras). I spent a month and for the most parts avoided the tourist areas. My inlaws live far away from the nearest town in Kerala.

discoslure:

I'm a 31 year old white male whose worked in the computer industry since I graduated from college.

A few General Observations:

What India has going for them....

1) I've never seen a country so utterly focused on education (remember I spent my time in the South). Education is the only way out for Indians. The pressure is unbelievable for young people to perform in school. Everywhere you go you see signs for schools / education

2) English is spoken fluently among the college educated. English is the language of business in the south (in major cities, white collar type of work) b/c there are 19 "official" languages with an unbelievable number of dialects. Combine with the business process outsourcing (BPO), and you get a lot of focus around English language skills. I tried to learn the local dialect, but everyone wanted to practice English...

3) India graduates over 1 M engineers a year. There schools are extremely competitive. Areas such as Kerala have a 100% literacy rate, this meets or exceeds any Western country...

4) Motivation and drive. It's amazing what people will do to better themselves. This motivation and drive provides the foundation for the above. Spending a week in Bangalore was absolutely refreshing (and the food was great). To see all the young people full of life and excited was contagious... I can't wait to go back. I love seeing all the tech companies signs....

5) Economics. The largest middle class in the World, in sheer numbers. In India, it takes 2,000 USD a year to achieve a middle class lifestyle, that's ~1,500 EUR and ~1200 UK sterling. This middle class will drive the world's manufacturers to provide low priced quality goods, and the whole world will benefit.

6) Politics. Democracy works, although its not neccessarliy the kind the US imagines. A diverse group of cultures / languages get a long in a basic sense. Is it perfect no, but it gives me hope for places like Iraq.

What Challenges are ahead for India

1) Education: The focus on engineering has led to a culture that is not entrepreneur focused. It takes a diverse set of skills to move out of the BPO / Manufacturing mindset. Take Apple's IPOD. It took American design and a world wide supply chain to make this happen. The key is the design. That's what makes a product sell, manufacturing is important, but if you don't move up the chain, you will always have difficultly. Note to engineers: Get jobs that are customer facing and can't be outsourced...

2) Gaps There are 100's of Millions still in dire poverty and extreme education. If the middle class and the rich get too far ahead of the rest of the country, I think there will be a lot of social unrest.

3) Environment. India is a shit hole to put it nicely. If they don't clean up sooner rather than later, India will face a lot of health care cost for the population. Also, in Kerala, fresh water is an issue.

It's the old problem of changing mindsets. The tech version is a company that sold hardware and now wants to sell software or services only. Its huge change and most fail.

That's it I look forward to replies to others who have been to the south and I'm curious what your opinions are...

I loved it and I can't wait to go back......

Re:As Someone who just came back from India...

[rsidd]

They have 160 million Dalits ("untouchables")

Whoa there. Caste-based discrimination was outlawed back in 1950 when independent India's new constitution was adopted (less than three years after independence) and has in fact nearly vanished in the cities (except in some things like marriage), though it persists in many rural areas. Now check out how long after independence the US persisted with slavery, how long after that the US failed to extend civil rights to blacks, how long after 1950 it took for the civil rights movement to have an impact, what the current state of racial relations is in the major cities of the US, leave alone the rural south. Then come back and comment on India's Dalits.

It's a cultural thing.

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with you totally.

We have a culture where anybody can innovate. Look at all the companies that started out in someone's garage. There is the idea that anyone can do anything, the idea that a kid from the worst ghetto might someday become the president. Other cultures don't have that idea. It's a precious idea. The greatness of our culture and economy are based on it.

Having said the above, innovation requires certain conditions. People need enough economic surplus to be able to devote their time to something that may not pan out. People need a good enough education to be able to innovate. If we have a society where you go to school and then have to work two jobs to pay off your student loans, you don't have the surplus (time, money) to innovate; you have become a wage slave. If you have to sell your business to pay your doctor, you can't innovate. If you can't get a decent job because you grew up in a ghetto and the cops made sure that everyone had a criminal record, you can't innovate. If the Microsofts and Walmarts crush your budding business, you can't innovate.

The bottom line is that while I agree that we out-innovate the rest of the world, I sure wouldn't take that for granted in the future.

Re:It's a cultural thing.

[pommiekiwifruit]

There is the idea that anyone can do anything, the idea that a kid from the worst ghetto might someday become the president. Other cultures don't have that idea.

No, other cultures just actually do it, rather than pretending that they do. I mean how many black presidents has the US had? How many women? How many working class? It's not like Poland or the UK or New Zealand or other countries where normal people can become president; you need to be a multi-millionaire to have a chance (since TV advertising is expensive).

Europe publishes twice as many science papers

[Cryofan]

According to this study, the so-called "social democracies" of Europe do far better at publishing peer-reviewed papers when you compare them to America on a per-capita basis. The social democracies of Belgium, Denmark, Finland, the Netherlands, Sweden and Switzerland published 2 papers in peer-reviewed journals for every 1 by America, when you correct for population. Here is a news story covering the study.

The above mentioned countries have a population of 53 million and generated 12.7% of papers, while America, with a population of 288M, published 34%.

One might speculate whether the social democracies with their high taxes and well-funded universities do more hardcore research. Here in America it seems that research is aimed more at the low-lying, commercially-viable fruit.

Re:India = CMM5

[KontinMonet]

It says absolutely nothing. The number of (useless) people I interviewed from CMM5 companies whilst I was based in India proved to me that their CMM certs were an illusory wallpapering solely to impress ignorant Western purchasers.

What about American research centeres in India?

[xot]

Most of the bigger companies have research centers based in India.And HUGE onnes.Most of them are based inthe south, in or around Bangalore.Theres GE,IBM,HP,Microsoft etc..
Not only does the American company benefit from these R&D centers due to the cheap & skilled labour(does research count as labour?) but so does India as it takes almost as much from the R & D as does USA.

Re:Progress? Female Infanticide

[YU Nicks NE Way]

The parent, an AC, writes:

The sex ratio at birth (SRB) in Indian culture is 1.20 males to 1.0 females. The normal SRB is 1.05, which Japan, Sweden, and other Western nations have.

Where did you get your figures? The CIA factbook article on India gives the following figures:

Sex ratio:

at birth: 1.05 male(s)/female

under 15 years: 1.06 male(s)/female

15-64 years: 1.07 male(s)/female

65 years and over: 1.03 male(s)/female

total population: 1.07 male(s)/female (2004 est.)

Those are quite reasonable figures, and quite comparable to the United States' figures. I think you're confusing the figures in India with those from the PRC.

Sex ratio:

at birth: 1.12 male(s)/female

under 15 years: 1.13 male(s)/female

15-64 years: 1.06 male(s)/female

65 years and over: 0.91 male(s)/female

total population: 1.06 male(s)/female (2004 est.)

US versus Common Europe

[handy_vandal]

If you consider Europe as a country like entity then i am not sure the U.S. are so superior.

Common Europe is a formidable economic powerhouse, comparable to the United States:

"The euro area's GDP was only 60% the size of America's in 2001. If current exchange rates are sustained [circa December 2003], it swells to around 80%. If the economies of Britain, Sweden and Denmark are added to the euro area, the European Union now has a slightly larger economy than that of the United States."
Source

Further evidence of global economic conflict between Common Europe and the United States: Iraq switched from US dollars to the euro in 2000:

"On November 6th of 2000 Iraq became the first country to receive all of its oil export payments in euros instead of American dollars. This switch was estimated to cost Iraq $270 million dollars, but Iraq had since actually come out on top due to the rise in the value of the euro, which was actually probably influenced by Iraq's decision to use the euro as its foreign exchange currency."
Source

However, following the US invasion of Iraq,

"the US ... installed its own authority to rule the country and as soon as Iraqi oil became available to sell on the world market, it was announced that payment would be in dollars only."
Source

-kgj

Re:bullshit

[Anonymous Coward]

I always hate writing out rebuttals to posts like the parent who talk like paper tigers "There cannot be glitzy progress ignoring 75% of the people". Tax rates are pretty high in India. Everything is taxed to kingdom come. But still the poor are just that, poor.
India is going to go to hell unless they control their population.
"At least, we don't have to sweep unpleasant facts under the carpet". Yes, for 50+ years now we having been wallowing in self-pity because we like to keep these facts in front of us. I cannot or should not make money because the person next to me is still poor. This is the attitude past govts have employed. Look where India is today.

Did you know that if the Indian govt directly gave 2.2 $ to every Indian who was classified as living below the poverty line, India would have no poverty at all. India spends a 3+ $ on these programmes and yet the poor Indian probably does not see more than 5-10 cents of it.

"In the absence of any corrective measures, I am sure even India can be like China. It has been acquiring a steady 6-7% growth rate for the past 5 years."

Yes, India will be in 2020 what China is in 2010. Mark my words, 2008 olympics is in china, 2016 is in india.

I haven't been to AP in a few years but what I do know is that Naidu did make Hyderabad liveable and attract a lot of companies. These companies create high paying jobs, meaning there is a trickle down effect in the economy.

Would you rather have Naidu who courts companies or some populist leader who dances to the tunes of farmers for their votes?

Being a former US resident, and a current bangalore resident, let me assure you that the bangalore(karnataka) govt went out only because of the drought. The previous govt was so much fucking better than the current dharam singh govt in place.

If you read the newspaper, you will see that the current govt is fucking pathetic in all aspects.
They have made bangalore a living hell with traffic mismanagement, no funds for infrastructure. All the chief minister does is give empty promises. His rural promises are also ring hollow.
Think about it. Bangalore's industries provide 70 % of the state's revenue. Why will you want to mess with that and the govt has taken bangalore and its citizens for granted. Many software companies are expanding, but not in bangalore. In other cities and states.

Read India Today" Dec 13 2004 issue "No Bang for the Buck" to know about blore. The current govt is going to pay for their lackadaisical attitude.

Now let us talk about China. It has one govt(whatever your opinion is on the political issue, lets focus on the economic one).
One govt means that it can focus on economic issues without political distractions. The chinese govt is putting a lot of its energies into building the infrastructure in China, be it power, communications, highways etc.

Just compare that with India. Here politicians cannot end squabbling among themselves, economy is down on their list.
Do you how many small cities in China are getting their own airports? How long is it taking to build the bangalore airport? See "indian bureaucracy is least friendly in asia" july, 04 in the deccan herald.

Democracy is a beautiful thing. That is why see what Bihar is today. Democracy works when your population is under control, not out of control with 30 million births a year.

Compare the infrastructure: in, cn. For amusement, take a look at just one feature in Iran's factbook, ir
Compare the number of runways above 3000m that India has and the number that Iran has.
That will give you an indication of how pathetic indian infrastructure is even when compared to a economy like Iran which has been under sanctions for 20+ years.

At the current rate India is progressing, it w

Re:censorship

[alphakappa]

" i did a "search discussion" and it seems no one has mentioned the sexual repression and severe censorship of all media"

What, sir, are you smoking, and where can I have some of it?

Seriously though, the only media that is subject to censorship is movies since all movies have to go through the Central Board of Film Certification to get a U (universal) or A (adult) certificate. (There are more categories). (If you do watch Indian movies though, you will find that it is a very loose form of censorship).

No media including newspapers, or magazines or the Internet is subject to even the feeblest form of censorship in India. And I have spent a good part of my life in India and I know what I talking about.

Re:India is NOT a free country

[CRCulver]

The intellectual vanguards can not flourish without sexual liberation.

You could have fooled me. India already has a Nobel laureate for literature (Tagore), and a world-famous controversial author with a fatwa against him (Rushie). Then there's Seth, Roy, and the great ancient grammarian Panini. It's amazing how many Indian authors I can call to mind when I can't name more than one or two from the sexually-liberated Netherlands. I don't think you can assert a correlation.

Re:China .vs India, China Wins...

[doktor-hladnjak]

True, but India's population is growing more than twice as fast as China's. CIA World Factbook gives annual rates of 1.44% for India, 0.57% for China, 0.92% for the US and Canada, and -0.45 for Russia.