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The Repercussions of Blogging

hende_jman writes "How much should you be allowed to say in a public blog? There's an article on CNN that looks at different situations in which people have been fired for blogging about their company. The main issue brought seems not to be one of a lack of trust (blogs, after all, are most often public), but rather a lack of policy outlining repercussions for negative blogging about one's company."

102 of 571 comments (clear)

  1. Remember when... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Slashdot had editors not named Zonk?

    Anyway, don't blog anything you wouldn't say on TV.

    1. Re:Remember when... by Leo+McGarry · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You are allowed to say whatever you want, and if your employer doesn't like it, he's allowed to fire you.

      Freedom of speech, as the saying goes, does not mean freedom from consequences.

    2. Re:Remember when... by daVinci1980 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      If I had mod points, I'd mod you up to +1000000.

      Seriously, why don't people get that? It's not that hard.

      You have freedom of speech. You're not going to be imprisoned or tortured for what you say. On the other hand, you can be fired from your job. Your s/o might leave you. Your kids might hate you. You might blow through your entire life savings unable to get another job.

      It bears repeating, in BOLD. Freedom of speech is not a license to do something illegal, unethical, or even for you to say things otherwise inappropriate for a person of your particular position in society.

      --
      I currently have no clever signature witicism to add here.
    3. Re:Remember when... by mvdw · · Score: 3, Insightful
      I agree; and had almost this exact same discussion a few days ago here at work. People seemed to be under the impression that they could yell the proverbial "FIRE!!" in a crowded theatre without consequence.

      PS: About your .sig: "Writing Games is Fun!" (presumably referring to authoring computer software with a focus on entertainment); one could also say "Writing Games are Fun", referring to Slashdot...

    4. Re:Remember when... by swv3752 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And you see nothing wrong with that? And where do we draw limits? Should you get fired because you support a different political party?

      If we let our rights get eroded away this is what is going to happen.

      --
      Just a Tuna in the Sea of Life
    5. Re:Remember when... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'm not sure that government construction, a corporation, should have the right to punish me for my speech.

      Okay, let's say you don't work for an evilll corporation but you own your own small coding shop and you employ one person. You find out later he's writting online child molestation fantasy crap. Do you fire him?

      What is a corporation more than a collection of individuals? Why is it okay when its just you firing a cretin, but when its 100 people suddenly its a crime?

    6. Re:Remember when... by FLEB · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Government construction? I'm gonna say "no".

      Although the idea of a corporation is legislative, the government does not supply structure or support to any-given-corporation enough to make it a government institution covered under "Congress shall make no law".

      By that logic, a "taxpayer" is a government institution, and telling someone to STFU would be government-endorsed oppression.

      --
      Information wants to be free.
      Entertainment wants to be paid.
      You just want to be cheap.
    7. Re:Remember when... by rizzo420 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      you cannot say "i have a bomb" on an airplane and not expect to be taken into immediate custody, or otherwise... you cannot sit in a theatre and yell "fire!" and not expect to be arrested for public disturbance...

      free speech does not protect all speech... you cannot work for a company and go on TV and publicly say "our product sucks, buy from this other company" and not be fired. however, if you say "our product has a strong chance of injuring you", that's completely different.

      --
      please me, have no regrets.
    8. Re:Remember when... by mabinogi · · Score: 3, Insightful

      > Considering you are posting under a pseudonym, your non-support for free speech is interesting.

      why is it interesting?

      and besides, there was no indication that he was against free speech, just against people that think that freedom of speech is also freedom from responsibility.
      You are free to say what you want, but you have to accept the responsibility for your actions.

      Most (decent) people don't use psudonyms or screen names in forums to allow them to escape responsibility, they do it to raise the barrier to random arseholes looking them up and harrasing them.

      The fact that he posted using a logged in account means that he is willing to take responsibility for his words, otherwise he would have posted anonymously.

      --
      Advanced users are users too!
    9. Re:Remember when... by Macadamizer · · Score: 3, Informative

      While I would agree with your main point anyway, I just thought I would point out that this isn't such a good argument since, in 49 states of the U.S. (Montana being the sole exception), you can be fired from your job at any time, for any reason at all (except for illegal reasons, like firing because of gender, race, national origin, etc., or if you have a union or other employment contract). You employer can fire you for writing porn, whether the writing was done on or off of the job -- it's not a freedom of speech issue, it an "at-will" employment issue...

      --

      "That's not even wrong..." -- Wolfgang Pauli
    10. Re:Remember when... by Macadamizer · · Score: 4, Informative

      Just FYI, an action for retaliatory firing is limited to retaliating for the following:

      1. Attempting to exercise your rights under the Family Medical Leave Act;

      2. Whistleblowers (but it has to be whistleblowing as defined under the applicable statutes, and not just you talking about stuff going on at work);

      3. Reporting safety violations under OSHA or applicable state laws.

      There are some other causes of action for retaliatory firing that differ from state to state, but these are the biggies, and firing someone from venting a company's dirty laundry on the net is not protected in any state...

      --

      "That's not even wrong..." -- Wolfgang Pauli
    11. Re:Remember when... by Macadamizer · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Again, just FYI, "wrongful termination" means being fired for membership in a protected class. So, if you get fired because of your race, religion, gender, national origin, age (if over 40), whatever else is in Title 7 (can't remember off of the top of my head), that's wrongful termination. Plus there are some states that grant further protections, such as marital status, sexual orientation, etc.

      Wrongful termination is different from, and often confused with, being fired for "cause" or not. Firing for "cause" only impacts whether or not you can collect unemployment benefits, and varies from state to state. Wrongful termination is a cause of action that allows you to sue your former employer for damages, and is limited (generally) to firing for being a member of a protected class.

      Again, this is all U.S. law, and won't necessarily count if you are a member of a union or have a bonafide employment contract.

      --

      "That's not even wrong..." -- Wolfgang Pauli
    12. Re:Remember when... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      But in general, any well run company will not fire someone because they are from a different political party because they know they will be sued for wrongful termination

      This has become an art form. If an employee is a participant in an undesirable political party, he will be harassed with political discussion around the office and at lunchtime. Then he'll be fired for being confrontational.

      Please. Quit propagating the lie that laws actually protect anyone. The laws only protect people who are 1) a cash cow as defined in the law (minority, female, homosexual, disabled), or 2) well financed to hire attorneys.

      For everyone else it's live at your own risk. Why do we even pay taxes?

    13. Re:Remember when... by Lord+Kano · · Score: 2, Insightful

      By that logic, a "taxpayer" is a government institution, and telling someone to STFU would be government-endorsed oppression.

      What if someone on welfare, Social Security, SSI or some other assistance program tells you to STFU?

      The government is providing them with financial support while they try to impede your right to free speech.

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
    14. Re:Remember when... by nolife · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'm using an example from a poster already in this thread...

      Boss sees you walking into a strip bar on a Saturday when you are off work. He does not like it and fires you.. It appears based on your comment, that is perfectly acceptable.

      Now back up a few months in time to your initial interview with that same boss. He can not ask you in that interview if you visit strip bars after work.

      It seems odd that he could be allowed to fire you because you go to strip bars but he is not allowed to ask you that in an interview.

      What this appears to boil down to is, he can fire you because he wants to but he better not admit it was because he saw you go to a strip bar after work. Where this would become questionable is if he specifically mentioned his dislike for strip bars many times to you and you happen to see him see you go into one. If you got fired for "no reason" the next Monday, you'd have a good case to fight back. There are a lot of people that can sense when something is going downhill at work and they get a strong feeling the shit is about to hit the fan. If you can prove you were fired for something not directly work related, you do have an appeal process. The hard part is proving it.

      --
      Bad boys rape our young girls but Violet gives willingly.
    15. Re:Remember when... by pete6677 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Baylor is a private religious institution, and therefore allowed to discriminate. For the same reason, Bob Jones University was allowed to continue their ban on interracial dating until they dropped it a couple of years ago due to public pressure. Religious institutions are one of the only groups that do not have to follow civil rights laws and most other labor laws, since the government has been hesitant to regulate religious groups. And yes, you will find cases where people have abused this situation, disguising a business as a church.

    16. Re:Remember when... by Leo+McGarry · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You defined some extreme end points but there is a lot left in the middle.

      Um. Actually, there's not. You're not going to be imprisoned for what you say. That's it. That's the one data point. And even that has exceptions. If you disclose national secrets, for example, you can be imprisoned. But the exceptions are few and specific.

      The only thing that the First Amendment guarantees is that Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech. In other words, you will not be imprisoned for what you say. Neither will you be deprived of life, liberty or property for what you say. Congress lacks that power.

      Everything else is fair game. Your boss wants to fire you? He can fire you. Your wife wants to divorce you? She can divorce you. Your kids want to stop eating their vegetables? They can stop eating their vegetables. Your friends want to stop returning your calls? They can stop returning your calls. Your dog wants to run away? Bye bye, Rover.

      Freedom is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, it means, hey, you're free. On the other, it means that there's no safety net. You have to accept responsibility for your own decisions.

    17. Re:Remember when... by Leo+McGarry · · Score: 2, Insightful

      is saying negative things about your company legitimate grounds for being fired?

      Yes. Here's how we know.

      Take a question of the form, "Is X legitimate grounds for being fired?" For any value of X, the answer is yes ... except some very specific and narrow exceptions. You can't fire somebody for being one gender or the other, for belonging to a particular racial or political group or for adhering to a particular religion. You can't fire somebody for belonging to a union or for choosing not to join a union. That's about it.

      For all other values of X, the answer is yes. Because employers are free, too, you know.

    18. Re:Remember when... by timeOday · · Score: 3, Insightful
      it's not a freedom of speech issue, it an "at-will" employment issue...
      Obviously it is a freedom of speech issue. And it's a freedom to fire issue.

      Why can't people just see the obvious - many freedoms are mutually incompatible. Redefining words to avoid the dilemma doesn't change anything.

      So the only question is whose freedoms trump whose.

    19. Re:Remember when... by jcr · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'd add to that, that far too many people fail to understand the difference between censorship and criticism.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    20. Re:Remember when... by Quothz · · Score: 2, Interesting

      See, employers have the right -- absolute, but limited by some very specific and narrow laws meant to keep the balance -- to hire and fire whomever they want for whatever reason they want. If you're my employee and I decide I don't like your socks, I can fire you on the spot if I want.

      Mind you, there's a disincentive. It's a minor point, but worth mentioning: an employee who's been fired without cause ("cause" being determined by the Department of Labor) can collect unemployment insurance, assuming that person is otherwise eligible (usually this requires a certain amount of time worked within some period of time). This especially can hurt small businesses, since it raises their unemployment insurance rates.

      Unfortunately, this quite often leads to employers "finding a reason" in order to keep their rates down, even if they really just want to cut payroll a bit. This leads to various off-topic ramifications to the hapless, disenfranchised employee.

      Ultimately, what the article doesn't say is that the reason companies want more clear-cut policies is so that firings for blogging are "for cause" (because they violated company policies). It's not because they don't think they can fire 'em.

    21. Re:Remember when... by Monkelectric · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Yep ... I interviewed for a religious university recently as a programmer analyst... I got a *PERFECT* score on their technical test, actually above perfect -- one question had 3 possible approaches so I showed them all (not one other applicant even finished). I got the boot because I wasn't baptist.

      But in the long run -- they cut their own throats. They are hiring low quality individuals because they attend church.

      --

      Religion is a gateway psychosis. -- Dave Foley

    22. Re:Remember when... by ultranova · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Freedom of speech, as the saying goes, does not mean freedom from consequences.

      Actually, yes it does. If it doesn't, then each and every nation that has ever existed has had absolute freedom of speech; after all, even in Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, Communist China and North Korea, you could go to the nearest town center and shout "$(LEADER) sucks !". You would be shot or sent to Siberia for it, but hey, freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences, right ?

      Please note that I'm not commenting about the right (or lack of it) of the company to fire whoever they will for whatever reason. I'm simply pointing out that the parent posters claim is completely nonsensical.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    23. Re:Remember when... by Weirsbaski · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It bears repeating, in BOLD. Freedom of speech is not a license to do something illegal, unethical, or even for you to say things otherwise inappropriate for a person of your particular position in society.

      Well that last part is awfully ripe for abuse. As a citizen of my country, is it inappropriate for me to say that I don't always like my country's social-policy laws, fiscal laws, or the wars that my government keeps getting us into?

      I don't care for the idea that the constitution gives me specific rights, but government+business work together (intentionally or not) to make me effectively not be able to exercise those rights.

      --

      I am not a sig.
  2. It's Not About Your Rights by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's about the companies rights. They can fire you for whatever reason they like.

    It's a two way street, you can leave whenever you want, and the company can leave you.

    Stop this bellyaching about your freedom. You don't have the "right" to keep your job.

    1. Re:It's Not About Your Rights by ScrewMaster · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Um ... yes, under many conditions you do. The Federal Government isn't much concerned about that, but the States certainly are. A wrongful firing suit can cost a company a lot of money. So don't assume, as an employer, that you have the right to terminate any employee, at any time, for any reason. For that matter, so far as blogs are concerned there are laws to protect whistleblowers. Still ... if you dislike your employer enough to want to badmouth them in public you should probably just look for another job and be done with it.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    2. Re:It's Not About Your Rights by Leo+McGarry · · Score: 2, Informative

      It varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. In Texas, for example, where I grew up and had my first job, the employer has the absolute right to hire and fire at will with only a few narrow exceptions.

    3. Re:It's Not About Your Rights by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Unless you work for;

      * military

      Yes, its real hard to get sacked there.


      Well, the military fires people on a regular basis - for officers, two fail to promotes and your out (unless you have made 04 where you're assured 20 years of service)

      Enlisted memebrs can be refused re-enlistment as well.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    4. Re:It's Not About Your Rights by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 3, Informative

      I believe this extends to private companies in Canada. Unless they have due cause, they can't just fire you. They can lay you off because they don't need you anymore, but if they're caught re-hiring someone with your skill set in the immediate future after laying you off, they're fucked.

      You see a lot of jobs up here that are just under 35 hours a week up here, because part-time employees don't recieve the same protections. Instead of 3 employees working full time, you hire 4 to work 30 hrs a week and you can screw them over to your hearts content.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    5. Re:It's Not About Your Rights by JJProg · · Score: 2, Informative

      Exactly. There is a real threat to people's rights with respect to blogging, but it's not from companies; it's from the government -- in particular, from Campaign Finance Reform. According to an article at news.com (The coming crackdown on blogging), the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act of 2002 (aka McCain-Feingold) could, for example, make a link from a blog to a candidate's site count as a contribution to that candidate's campaign, and therefore subject to regulation.

    6. Re:It's Not About Your Rights by Kesh · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Because overall, Americans value the rights of the individual to earn as much money as they want. Which inherently means that a business can conduct itself how it wants.

      True capitalism would avoid any governmental regulation, and I've known folks who actually want that. Because, when you get down to it, a restriction on businesses means a restriction on you as well, if you have any plans on becoming well-to-do. Donald Trump has made an entire career (and TV show) out of hiring and firing people as he sees fit.

      We're a mixed-market economy, but we still lean towards capitalism when given a chance. People here balk when you want to regulate companies, even if it's to their benefit as an employee... because it then limits their potential to be a business owner themselves.

    7. Re:It's Not About Your Rights by Profane+MuthaFucka · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What about companies being abusive to employees? You know, like sending their jobs to India?

      --
      Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
    8. Re:It's Not About Your Rights by Jason+Earl · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As an employee your job is to please your employer. It's really as simple as that. My personal opinion believes that this extends to how you talk about your employer in public. Employees are always talking about how they want their employers to separate their private life from their professional life. I personally don't think that it is too much to ask to extend employers the same courtesy. Use your free time to blog about something besides work. If you absolutely have to say something about work, at least make sure that it is something positive for crying out loud. If your employer is so horrible that you feel the world should know the depths of their depravity why in the world are you still taking their money?

      This has absolutely nothing to do with big business, other than it's only idiots that work at large corporations that think that they can get away with this kind of crap. No one is talking monitoring your every move. Heck, even if you worked at a lemonade stand your boss would expect you to not badmouth the business in public. It doesn't have anything to do with blogging either. If these idiots got up to the pulpit in church and bad mouthed their employers the same thing would have happened. You have the right to say any crazy, stupid, or inane thing that you want, but that doesn't mean that you don't have to face the consequences on Monday.

      This is about being stupid, pure and simple. If you work for an employer that is so horrible that you can't help but say terrible things about them in a public forum then you need to find another job. It's really that simple. If you are caught saying bad things about your employer in a public place you shouldn't be surprised if you find yourself looking for another job. This shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.

      Everyone has had a job at one time that they didn't like. Most of them keep the job until they find another job because they keep their mouths shut in public. That's not really too much for an employer to ask. They are, after all, paying you a salary. The classy (and smart) folks even go so far as to not badmouth past employers. You never know when you might need an old job back, and venting private problems in public rarely solves the problem.

  3. Whats so different? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Blogging is just a different form of communication; the same rules still apply. An employee wouldn't tell a newspaper that people should buy the company's stocks because its doing well. Same applies to blogging: say whatever you want to say about your personal life, what you ate this morning, or whom you hate so much...just don't say any sensitive info.

    duh?

  4. Well, duh. by rah1420 · · Score: 5, Funny

    My blog (full of cobwebs) are stories about me, not my employer. I'd fully expect to be fired if I told the story about

    NO CARRIER

    --
    Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens.
    1. Re:Well, duh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      I think you misspelled CAREER.

  5. This one's easy by Capt'n+Hector · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you've signed a NDA or any other legally binding agreement that compells you to STFU about a particular subject, then you're not allowed to talk about that subject, be it to your family around the dinner table or to the world via a blog. Seems pretty simple...

    --
    Quid festinatio swallonis est aetherfuga inonusti?
    Africus aut Europaeus?
    1. Re:This one's easy by ABeowulfCluster · · Score: 5, Funny
      And from a scene at 'Career Day' at the elementary school:

      So, what do you do?

      I'm an engineer at leading Search Engine Company.

      So.. how's your job.

      I'm sorry, but I'm not at liberty to discuss that.

      Is there any subjects people should study if they want to work at Google?

      I cannot confirm nor deny that I work at Google. As for subjects to take, I cannot divulge any technolgy which may or may not be employed in my work.

      Do you like your job?

      Sorry ma'am, don't ask don't tell.

    2. Re:This one's easy by Tim+Browse · · Score: 4, Funny

      Joke away, sparky - I once went to an interview like that at Logitech. We were paired off with existing employees for an informal chat about their jobs. The guy I got worked in the space eqpt division at Cambridge(?) and wasn't allowed to tell me anything about his work :).

      He did say he enjoyed it though.

    3. Re:This one's easy by renehollan · · Score: 4, Interesting
      I once had a late stage job interviewer where the interview wanted to see samples of code I had written.

      "You're kidding, right?"

      "No, why?"

      "Well, all the code I've written for other employers is owned by them. It would be improper for me to disclose it. I have written GPL code for some of those employers, but they did not distribute binaries to me so I can't disclose that either.

      I understand that you probably want to see if I can "cut the mustard", right?"

      "Duh!"

      "Then give me a coding task that should take, oh, a week or two. I'll likely get some working code back to you in 48 hours. We can even do some refinement cycles in that week, to see how flexible I am, and how open to expandability my designs are."

      "You're hired!"

      "No review of my code first?"

      "No, not necessary! Anyone that bold must know their stuff!!"

      "O.K. Put an offer in writing. I've got a plane to catch."

      Later...

      Wife: "So, you gonna take the offer?"

      "Not unless it's so good that I could stand to work for idiots who don't even check my creds. Sheesh!!"

      Yes, I would have sent them a custom sample of code -- even assigned rights to them: they took the time and effort to fly me in and intervew me, after all: worth a KLOC or two. No, I will not work for people that don't check their final cut interview candiate's skills. I have been known to turn down jobs on the basis of the incompetence of the people interviewing me. I have been known to accept jobs precisely because the interviews were "tough" and the interviewers sharp.

      --
      You could've hired me.
  6. The problem is not a lack of trust, but by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    lack of common sense by the blogger.

  7. Family repercussions to be considered too by saskboy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The possibility of having one's blog data mined by identity theives, or your family's enemies is something to keep in mind when writing too. If you wouldn't want your Grandmother discussing what you're talking about, it's probably a better idea to vent verbally to a friend [as long as you don't know Linda Tripp], than to put your rant into writing for potentially hostile people to read.

    --
    Saskboy's blog is good. 9 out of 10 dentists agree.
  8. Rules by orangeguru · · Score: 4, Insightful

    1. Never fuck anyone from the office.
    2. Never blog about your work either.

    1. Re:Rules by bonch · · Score: 2, Insightful

      These rules are common sense to you and me. But apparently to some, this story belongs in the Your Rights Online category. Sorry, but I don't have the "right" to bitch about my company publicly and then expect to keep working there. Sigh.

    2. Re:Rules by flyingsquid · · Score: 4, Funny
      1. Never fuck anyone from the office. 2. Never blog about your work either.

      Waitaminit- are you saying I should NOT have used my blog to post photos of me and the bosses' daughter at it on top of the copy machine?

    3. Re:Rules by FLEB · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Others know that legally, they don't have that right.

      Clarification, before 2 or 3 people call me on something I am aware of: Yes, I know that you do have the right to talk about your work (barring NDA/Trade Secrets), but you don't have the right to duck reprocussions.

      (Editor's note: The remainder is just a rant, and mostly unrelated to the topic at hand. Read at own risk.)

      Personally, I'd be happy if business owners and stockholders would stop being such profit-hungry, penny-pinching assholes, and have a little pride and recognition for their workforce. That, unfortunately, is not an option for many in landscapes where it's in both the interest and the power of the "big players" to make crunchy bits of anyone who doesn't want to play that hard of hardball.

      Still, though, I'm really suprised that nobody's stepped up to the plate to advertise that "We might cost more, but we're not evil". Saturn tried that in the '90s, but they kind of fizzled out. I want to see someone take off the gloves. Start naming names and calling people out. Go at it with all the vitriol and spite of a mudslinging political campaign.

      --
      Information wants to be free.
      Entertainment wants to be paid.
      You just want to be cheap.
    4. Re:Rules by kinema · · Score: 3, Funny
      3. Definitely never blog about who you fuck in the office.

      Obligitory Seinfeld reference:
      In the boss' office.

      Boss: I'm going to get right to the point. It has come to my attention that you and the cleaning woman have engaged in sexual intercourse on the desk in your office. Is that correct?

      George: Who said that?

      Boss: She did.

      George: Was that wrong? Should I have not done that? I tell you I gotta plead ingnorance on this thing because if anyone had said anything to me at all when I first started here that that sort of thing was frouned upon, you know, cause I've worked in a lot of offices and I tell you peope do that all the time.

      Boss: You're fired.
    5. Re:Rules by ucblockhead · · Score: 4, Funny

      No. Using the copy machine for personal purposes is almost certainly against company policy.

      --
      The cake is a pie
    6. Re:Rules by Shazatoga · · Score: 2, Insightful

      He said never fuck anyone from the office. As long as she dosen't work there it's all good.

  9. policy? by csimicah · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This isn't kindergarten... nobody should need a 'policy' to tell them that if they badmouth their employer in public (or otherwise reflect badly on them), they're not going to be welcome at work for much longer.

    It's called 'biting the hand that feeds you', and it's never a particularly smart idea.

    1. Re:policy? by M.C.+Hampster · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Ive always said corporations are just like mini communist nations, non-elected leader with its circle of generals and its spies

      Wow, you're right. They are so smiliar. Heck, they are pretty much the same thing. Oh yeah, except they can't execute you. Oh, and they pay you for all the work you do for them. And you can leave the company whenever you want, while many communist nations will severly punish those trying to escape. Yeah, other than that, they are totally the same!!!1one.

      --
      Forget the whales - save the babies.
    2. Re:policy? by laughingcoyote · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Please don't tell me that a corporation "feeds" me. I make them a fair trade-I do my work for them on their terms for a certain number of hours a day, and they pay me a set amount of money for those hours. Once I go home, they are not obligated to continue paying me for the hours I spend there, so why should they have any say in what I say or do with them?

      --
      To fight the war on terror, stop being afraid.
    3. Re:policy? by csimicah · · Score: 3, Interesting

      They certainly don't have any say in what you do at home.

      But them continuing to employ you is a courtesy, kind of like you refraining from slurring them online is a courtesy.

  10. Public discourse by BWJones · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The problem of course is that blogs are accessible world wide and can potentially reach a much larger audience than if you were simply talking to friends about how crappy your company is. To some extent, the fired employees deserve some of the blame as they would have to realize the potential implications of posting the information they did, but this IS the problem with technologic advancement. There are always teething problems associated with new technologies being used within existing methodologies and communication paradigms. The trick is, always be careful of what you say and be willing to take the heat for it......even if it is on a personal blog that might be accessed by hundreds, or thousands of individuals. I am always amazed at the traffic my blog receives for a non-commercial ( I would rather keep it commercial free), personal site. Articles like my What is the iPod are some days getting a hundred hits or more from all over the world, so one should expect that some attention may come your way even with what you may consider minor posts.

    --
    Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
  11. Alternative power resource. by adolfojp · · Score: 3, Funny

    Before we continue with this discussion, I propose that we wrap Jefferson's remains in a dynamo. Then, when he starts rolling around in his grave, we can all benefit from this endless free power resource.

    Cheers,
    Adolfo

    1. Re:Alternative power resource. by Leo+McGarry · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Um. Before you continue this discussion, I propose that you spend a little time reading what Mr. Jefferson actually wrote. Then you might realize that if he were here today, he'd say that the constitutionally guaranteed freedom of speech is not a get-out-of-jail-free card. The fact that the government does not prohibit you, or anyone else, from saying whatever you want doesn't mean that your words won't have consequences, consequences up to and including the loss of your job.

      Jefferson was a lot bigger on personal responsibility than you seem willing to give him credit for.

    2. Re:Alternative power resource. by mickyflynn · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Nearly all the founding fathers made statements like Patrick Henery's "it is the desired goal that all citizens on a gun and know how to use it." Washington remarked about the delights of sitting on his porch at Mt Vernon smoking "cannibus cigarettes." Even the ones people like to quote against religion were really just against state-forced religion, and actually thought that society couldn't survive if people weren't to act within the traditional constraints of morality.

      However, lefties like to harp on this "freedom of speech" thing as if it were some sort of cart blanche to say whatever the fuck they want to, but it doesn't apply to those "ignorant redneck racists." Then the righties go on about the "freedom to keep and bear arms," ignoring the fact that the purpose was that we are all supposed to be armed because we are not supposed to have a standing army. World War II changed the way we do business in the world. However, I absolutly believe a citizen's militia is the best way to maintain order. It certainly gives disciplin and everyone one knows everyone else is packing at home, so there is less insentive to burgalarize.

      Then, lefties pick on the "freedom of religion" and try and say we are supposed to be a secular society with freedom FROM religion. The writings of the founding fathers don't say that AT ALL. But the fundimentalist christian right gets it wrong too, because they don't say people should be forced into a religion. Just that we have certain moral values which need to be upheld.

      The moral of the story is, the founding fathers were about personal responsibility. There is enough rope to hang yourself from either end, you just have to know how not to. That's why the vote was restricted and we are not a direct democracy. Not everyone is capeable of the same things as eveyone else, and that includes that task of picking leaders. Here both sides will say "yes, just look at (Clinton, Bush) as evidence of that!"

      I've read the Constitution, Declaration, amendments, et cetera, hundreds of times. I've read the fouding father's other works (several of them, anyway). Honestly, I believe other people should do the same. Really, I think we need to have citizenship classes like we used to, to teach people WHY it is we do the things we do as a society and why they are important. Then people can be trusted to vote and shit -- once they know why, not because poltician x said y and it sounds dandy to them.

      I'm 20. I could have voted in the last 2 elections (president and a congressional midterm election). However, I have not put in my military service and don't believe i have earned citizenship. Naturalized citizens know more than most native-born types.

      Also, I am currently a card-carrying mail-recieving member of the USA Socialist Party and the Constitution Party. I'm fairly active with College Republicans and hang out with amnesty international hippies. I don't really have politics except that I love America, I am proud of it, and that's that. Quite frankly, party-fighting is about as stupid as sectarian violence. If people looked at the intentions, as written, of the founding fathers, they would see that neither party is actually good for this country. And neither the liberals or conservatives have a handle on reality.

    3. Re:Alternative power resource. by Leo+McGarry · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If people looked at the intentions, as written, of the founding fathers, they would see that neither party is actually good for this country.

      No offense, but that sounds like pretty typical college-student blah-blah. I say that as somebody who, when I was 20, spouted exactly the same kind of nonsense.

      Clue #1: You are not the first person to read our nation's heritage documents. We've all read them. We all know that the founding fathers envisioned a much different country from the one we live in. But we also know that the founding fathers recognized, above all else, the limits of their vision. The Constitution isn't inscribed in stone. It's a living, changing document. The process for amending it is strict, but straightforward. It was intended from the start to be a document that could adapt to changing times and changing situations, not one that would be so rigid that it might someday have to be thrown out.

      The Constitution, in other words, was meant to last forever. And so far, it's done very well.

      Clue #2: We no longer live in an agrarian nation of a few hundred thousand people scattered from Georgia to New York. Our situation is neither better nor worse, objectively, though different people have different opinions. But our situation has changed, drastically. Merely looking at documents written in the 18th century and concluding that things are different today is not insight, and it's not wisdom.

      Clue #3: What you euphemistically refer to as "citizenship classes" went by some different names in older days. We called it "slavery" and we called it "male suffrage." Blacks weren't allowed to vote because they were considered property. Women weren't allowed to vote for basically the same reason. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anybody who would say with a straight face that it's a great idea to go back to the days before universal suffrage.

      Bottom line: You sound like a nice kid, but I think you've read Starship Troopers too many times. Recognize the limits of your understanding. Remember that the people around you, both your peers and those who were born before you, are not idiots, and that we do things for good reasons. And above all, try to be a little more humble. You don't know half of what you think you know, and you don't know a tenth of what you'll think you know at 30. You're just getting started. you've got a long way to go.

  12. Slashdot interview process by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    TACO: Do you read and write proper English?
    ZONK: Well, not really.
    TACO: Do you have an inflated sense of self-worth? That is, would you refer to yourself as a "journalist" in an interview with Microsoft's security guy even though all you do is click a button to post user-submitted stories in a web queue?
    ZONK: Sure, I can do that.
    TACO: When's the last time you read the Slashdot front page?
    ZONK: About a week ago.
    TACO: YOU'RE HIRED!

  13. Who is responisble by flopsy+mopsalon · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I think part of the issue here is people have this perception of the so-called "internet" as a sort of anything-goes space of freedom where ordinary rules of human conduct are relaxed. People on-line say the most outrageous things and have access to images and descriptions of extreme situations and behavior that you would never see in real life.

    In reality, the internet is just a bunch of computers linked together. But what happens is people only concentrate on the wild stuff and the exhortations of so-called "freeedom" advocates who push the internet as some sort of intellectual wild west or something, and they do things like spread work gossip or post naughty pictures of themselves in their work uniform. Then they get fired.

    I think we all share some of the blame for this and need to be more thoughtful about what we say and do online. Remember, the next time you link to goatse, it could cost someone their job.

  14. Not "Duh." What about postings unrelated to work? by maynard · · Score: 4, Interesting
    From the article:

    "In 1997, blogging pioneer Cameron Barrett lost a job at a small marketing firm in Michigan after co-workers stumbled upon "experimental" short stories from his creative writing class on his site. Now, he's much more cautious, and he suspended his blog while campaigning for Wesley Clark during the Democratic presidential primaries."


    Yes, employment is "at will". Does that mean that employers should have the write to fire an employee for publishing a novel written on personal time? Or should society place limits on employers rights to fire employees over off work hours speech unrelated to their job? Personally, I think giving employers the right to squelch employees by threat of arbitrary termination hands them a bit too much power. What you say (unrelated to work) on your own time is your own business and not that of the employer. JMO. --M
  15. Blogging policies by tongue · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Most companies do have them.

    They're called NDA's.

  16. Re:Jeez.. by Cabriel · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I don't know. If I circulated flyers around my workplace that said it sucked, do you think I would be able to keep my job?

  17. Repurcussions to just get the job by cwikla · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I go through alot of resumes.
    With the advent of blogging, I can't believe:

    1. The number of people who give a link to their website on their resume
    2. Have a blog
    3. Refer to themselves negatively in their blog :
    "I couldn't find the motivation to get out of bed".
    "I'm a loser, I can't find a job".
    "I just don't feel like working".

    Hey, let's call these people...

    1. Re:Repurcussions to just get the job by gentlewizard · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The one case where I can see putting a blog on a resume, is if it's professionally related and the traffic is a testimonial to others' opinions of your expertise. I know people with database-focused blogs that's be crazy not to list their blogs as credentials.

      But then, they don't use their blog to wail and gnash their teeth about their personal lives, either.

  18. Take blogs out of the equation by nysus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If I started handing newsletters out on the street corner that had articles about the inside dirt about my company, could I be fired? Of course I could and with good justification. Corporations are under no obligation to uphold the First Amendment. (And that's one big reason I'm against privatization of government services.)

    Blogs are simply a more efficient means of communicating a message, nothing more. Why is this even controversial?

    --

    ---Technology will liberate us if it doesn't enslave us first.

    1. Re:Take blogs out of the equation by davmoo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Damn...the first time in a month I don't have mod points to give. Your post should be modded to "+20, Required Reading Followed By A Quiz".

      --
      I want a new quote. One that won't spill. One that don't cost too much. Or come in a pill.
    2. Re:Take blogs out of the equation by Brandybuck · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Corporations are under no obligation to uphold the First Amendment.

      Non sequitur.

      No one but the *government* is under any obligation to uphold the first ammendment, because it is only the government that the first ammendment applies to. Let me quote: "Congress shall make no law..." The Bill Of Rights is not a universal document, rather it is a set of restrictions upon the government, and only the government.

      And why are you picking on corporations? Your observation applies to all non-government groups, regardless of corporate status. Heck, it even applies to your *spouse*. Tell your wife she's a whore, and expect all your marital benefits to immediately cease.

      --
      Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
    3. Re:Take blogs out of the equation by hastings14 · · Score: 2, Informative
      Non sequitur to your non sequitur.

      What you said is true for the 1st Amendment, but completely ignores its application to states - and other government entities as well as some corporate behavior - through the 14th amendment. (prohibiting the deprivation of life, LIBERTY, or property without due process of law). The 14th amendment is of course much broader.

      The 14th amendment and freedom of speech have been applied to corporations- specifically malls, private universities, utilities and such. Usually when a corporation, such as a mall, behaves like a part of the government and does the work the government is supposed to do. Then it has to at least partially observe a citizen's rights, like the freedom of assembly (although it varies by circuit, state, etc.). Otherwise goverments could privitize everything, ignore the bill of rights, and get away with murder (most likely literally, in some cases).

      Case in point: During our recent presidential election, there were one or two cases of companies firing people for their political views. This would not happen to government employees, such as a teacher, since government is held to greater scrutiny. It probably also couldn't happen to a teacher at a charter school, even though the school is a private corporation.

      The main issue here seems to be not about freedom of speech... but about your right to your job. You don't have a guaranteed right to your job IF your empoyment is at will. Although some whistleblower laws could protect you if what you are saying is in the public interest - maybe.

      ----

      Your observation about your wife isn't necessarily always accurate either. A correct analogy to getting fired would be your wife filing for divorce. Calling her names in most states would be enough, with no fault divorce. However, if you had a covenant marriage like they now have in Louisiana you could, in theory, continue to call her names and she'd have to sit there and take it as long as it didn't become too abusive. Of course, she could say something nasty back to you, and you'd have to sit there and take that. I'm not 100% sure of the laws on covenant marriage, but that sounds about right.

      -------

      For every rule, an exception, ya' know...

  19. Gentle Bunny by rah1420 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Mildly offtopic, but it does reflect on the blogsphere a bit. (Did I just use that word?)

    I am a gentle employee bunny.

    1) I am a gentle bunny. I will listen carefully before I speak. In so
    doing I might get some faint clues from my manager as to who is going to
    get screwed next, and so take steps to make sure I am not in the penumbra of
    blame when it happens.

    2) I am a gentle bunny. I will think before I speak. I will make very
    sure I don't violate my employer's non-disclosures or talk about the stock
    during blackout periods. Nor will I reveal what I know about management's
    little hobbies. I will remember that my employer is *not* a gentle bunny, but
    is part wolf, part rat, and part Emperor Palpitine; and his lawyers are
    even worse.

    3) I am a gentle bunny. I will remember that when I speak I can hurt
    others. Will what I say cause others pain? Will they take it out on me in
    my next review?

    4) I am a gentle bunny. Can I change the way I say something to avoid
    hurting another yet still say it? I will strive to remember that in these
    situations, precise factual accuracy must give way to the survival instinct;
    it's a lot more important not to tick them off.

    5) I am a gentle bunny. The things I love are not loved by all. I will not
    force the things I love onto others. Not even if it is honesty, decency,
    and fiducial responsibility, and the people lacking these things are thereby
    risking jail time.

    6) I am a gentle bunny. If I wish to show others the things that I love I
    will check with those present in case they do not wish to be involved.
    This is especially true when I am comtemplating whistleblowing.

    7) I am a gentle bunny. I will accept any gift freely given, yet I will
    never ask for a free gift. The last time I did, I was fired, and I learned
    from that.

    8) I am a gentle bunny. I will remember that though I may not love
    something, that does not mean another may not love it. Everyone has their
    own take on these things, and just because I don't like fraud, doesn't
    mean the CEO isn't into it bigtime.

    9) I am a gentle bunny. I will listen and think on everything a person
    says, not just the parts I wish to fight with or the parts with which I
    already agree. If I find that everything presented is utter fantasy and
    absurdity, I will still carefully consider that this is, after all, my
    employer, and that in fantasy one may sometimes find humor, especially in
    schedules.

    10) I am a gentle bunny. What I believe in is important to me. I will
    remember that what others believe in is important to them. And if they
    believe that lying to the employees is important, then I will remember
    that "gentle" is not the same as "gullible".

    11) I am a gentle bunny. Another person may hold dear to their heart a
    view that contradicts mine. This does not mean that their view or mine is
    wrong for each may be the right choice for each of us. After all, there
    are no ethics in my workplace, so how can there be right and wrong
    choices?

    12) I am a gentle bunny. I will remember that words hurt worse and longer
    than blows. I will remember that this is occasionally useful, and is
    frequently the only response which is both legal and rational.

    13) I am a gentle bunny. If someone speaks to hurt me, have I given them
    cause? Is there something I have said or done that has caused them pain?
    Probably not; they probably weren't doing it intentionally, and simply
    wounded me in blithe, unconcerned self-interest. They are, after all,
    management.

    14) I am a gentle bunny. If I find myself wanting to hurt someone to make
    my point, I will look at what I am saying to see what is lacking in my
    view that I must harm another that they might agree? And if what is
    lacking is a modicum of intelligence in the other party, I will nonetheless
    remember that punching out the mentally enfeebled is neither gentle nor

    --
    Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens.
    1. Re:Gentle Bunny by myowntrueself · · Score: 4, Funny

      That was a true classic.

      If it wasn't so long, I'd print it in blood on rabbit hide and nail it too the wall of my cubicle.

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
  20. Meanwhile... by kureido · · Score: 3, Informative

    Ellen Simonetti's blog, mentioned in the CNN article as having "suggestive photographs of [her] in uniform," dies a slow horrible death...

  21. There are outlets. by gellenburg · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This is precisely why I started http://www.novoice.org/.

    To provide an outlet for those who are afraid to speak out about their jobs.

  22. Re:Jeez.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Didn't you see Office Space? It's that sort of "out of the box" thinking that gets you promoted.

  23. Why would I say bad things about my company? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Some people say bad things about my COmpany, but not me. My boss is an absolute saint, and my coworkers are knowledgable about software and increDibly talented. really I feel blessed, in that I have a job for life, and my stock purchase plan can only increase in value.

    People are sometimes envious, and ask me how i was lucky enough to leverage my skills into an exciting company like SCO, to which I reply, "I'm just lucky, I guess!"

  24. You must blow the whistle... by grant+murray · · Score: 5, Interesting
    I believe that if you discover that your employer is:
    • unethically exploiting employees
    • conducting business in an illegal manner
    • killing people in the course of business
    • about to kill people in the course of business
    • conducting business in a non-competitive, monopolistic fashion
    you are morally bound to speak out about it, on your blog, to the press and to whomever will listen. (If your employer is a Chinese mining company, you should just quit your job and become a full-time blogger.)
  25. Work is Work, but what about School Blogging by MatthewNewberg · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If a company doesn't like you I would understand they could fire you. Part of your job is to make the company money, and you can't do that by causing harm to the companies image. What I am really interested is in relation to blogging and school. If someone goes out and blogs a bunch of information about how a school sucks (which I think could happen quite a lot) is the students education and freedom of speach be protected. I feel this is much more interesting considering the fact the student is not employeed by the school, but the school is employeed by the student.

  26. Digital Ghosts by Sundroid · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The CNN article can be distilled down to a couple of chilling sentences: "Annalee Newitz, a policy analyst at the civil liberties group Electronic Frontier Foundation, said employees often 'don't realize the First Amendment doesn't protect their job.' The First Amendment only restricts government control of speech. So private employers are free to fire at will in most states, as long as it's not discriminatory or in retaliation for whistle-blowing or union organizing, labor experts say."

    The problem with blogging is that the words are documented. An employee can badmouth about his company or chat up the company's trade secrets in private settings and probably get away with it, but if he types those gripes or company secrets into his computer and hits the "publish" key, then he'd better realize that those words are permanently stored in a server, and the possibility that they might come back to haunt him is there.

  27. Re:Jeez.. by laughingcoyote · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Once again, the distinction:

    Are you doing it AT WORK (on company property) and/or DURING WORK (on company time)?

    If YES, it is your company's business, and justification to fire you. If NO, it is not. This is not similar to your analogy, since it (presumably) wasn't done during work or on company property-a more appropriate analogy would be "If I tell my friends how bad my day at work sucked at the bar after work, and it gets around to my boss, should he have the right to fire me?"

    --
    To fight the war on terror, stop being afraid.
  28. What I find hilarious by mcc · · Score: 4, Insightful

    CNN mentions the guy who got fired from google for blogging.

    What they don't mention is that the guy who got fired from google for blogging seems to have been violating SEC regulations by publicly posting certain information relating to Google's financials...

    Common sense really needs to become an issue at some point.

  29. Re:Jeez.. by Macadamizer · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "If I tell my friends how bad my day at work sucked at the bar after work, and it gets around to my boss, should he have the right to fire me?"

    But the answer to this question -- at least in the U.S., and in 49 of the 50 states -- is yes, your boss does have the right to fire you. Unless you are a member of a union, have a bonafide employment contract, or live and work in Montana, your boss can fire you for any reason at any time -- that's "at will" emplyment for you.

    Now, whether your boss "should" have the right to fire you, that's another question altogether. But under current law, your boss CAN fire you for any reason at all, including off-duty badmouthing of the company.

    --

    "That's not even wrong..." -- Wolfgang Pauli
  30. Freedom of speech! We love it! by erroneus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    We just don't like the vulnerability we feel when other people have it too.

    I find it interesting how little people see of the big picture -- the world centering around themselves so often yields such a limited perspective. I've brought the comparisson of western (by which I actually mean U.S.A.) society to eastern (by which mean Japan) society to illustrate an alternative way of thinking and considering things. Because the two societies are so different, it grants an opportunity to see how other people do things... a chance to see how things might be if they were different here.

    The issue about "blogging" is really no different than if it were discovered that you were talking to a reporter about your company or, for that matter, if your boss overheard you at a dinner conversation. If you're unhappy with things at work, it is an embarassment for the people you work for to have you go around telling people how you feel. While I'm sure they wish they had a better recourse such as violent retaliation against your family or the ability to erase the memories of those to whom you have spread your filth about the company, firing is just about the only weapon they can wield.

    In Japan, I think it is pretty well accepted that people will talk. They talk a lot. And what's more, people often worry about it so much that they do everything in their power to avoid anyone saying anything negative about themselves. This is a key motivator for many of the "positives" we see in Japanese society... if you've ever been there, you'd recall that they are patient, kind and generous to a fault. (At least, that was my experience.)

    It is also often said that asian women usually don't become obese like western women very often do. Many people attribute this to their dietary habits, which I will agree helps, but if you don't think they love them burgers and fries, that pizza and spaghetti, you name it, then you'd be very wrong. So why? Because they don't want people talking about how fat they are!!!!! So they simply do what it takes to avoid it.

    Again, it's the shame and embarassment issues that are motivators more than just about anything else. Here, it's simply bad manners to notice if someone is a fat pig and has unusually large breasts for a man. And if you SAY anything about it, it's on you! So the stigma is on the speaker rather than on the object of the speech.

    This is not usually the case in blogging, however -- the stigma goes to the object. So what are we to do as a society? Should we, the people, embrace our freedom of speech by making allowances for the fact that it is simply unavoidable? Should we, the businesses of the U.S.A., defend our public image with litigation and termination or through kindness and generosity?

    One thing is certain -- we, the people, are pretty damned short-sighted much of the time and care only about pleasing ourselves... this is pretty true about we, the businesses of america too... a damned shame isn't it?

    I think civics and social studies should be very emphasized in our schools now more than ever. (And they shouldn't graduate unless they can pass a U.S. Citizenship exam.) The kids will know, most of the time, if they are being lied to anyway -- so even being taught lies could be of value.

  31. And you thought "blog" was an annoying neologism. by hunterx11 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Sounds like people are getting dooced.

    --
    English is easier said than done.
  32. Blogging changes nothing by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What you should and should not say is not changed by blogging. There is no real difference to making a public statement by any means, including blogging, newspapers, TV etc.

    --
    Engineering is the art of compromise.
  33. Good sense by yuri+benjamin · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's good sense not to dis your employer in public.

    --
    You make the mistake of thinking you can educate the fundamental stupidity out of people. You can't.
  34. whistle blowing by yintercept · · Score: 2, Interesting

    When blogging, you play the roles of subject, writer, editor and publisher. The whistle blowing laws are probably the best recourse for a fired blogger; however, without an established publishing institution behind blogs, I doubt whistle blowing cases will succeed.

    IANAL, but it seems to me that the whistle blowing laws pretty much assume a hapless employee blowing the whistle to an authority. Publishing your blog puts you in the compromised situation of being both the hapless whistle blower and the authority.

    I think the main issue here is not about freedom of speech... but lack of right to job.

    The problem with the current state of employment is that employees really don't build up any solid assets. If we were building assets while we work, we wouldn't be beholden to any particular employer.

  35. *NEWSFLASH* by Lonath · · Score: 3, Insightful
    I've figured out three simple rules about this wacky IntarW3b thing that help guide me when posting things online.
    1. Everything you post will be there forever.
    2. Everyone will eventually know who you are.
    3. Anyone who cares will eventually read what you post.


    Seriously, do people think that because there's a new and easy way of updating their websites (which is all that blogs are...simplified website management) that somehow they magically get a +5 Shield of I Can Say Whatever The Fuck I Want Without Repurcussions? Blogga, please.
  36. Business doesn't have a "right" to squat by maynard · · Score: 2, Informative

    "Employers aren't "granted" the right to fire you for what you do on our spare time at all. That's a natural right they have, and the government can only step in to intervene when society has deemed those reasons improper[...]"

    Corporations are "granted" the right to exist as soon as the state registers their articles of incorporation. The state has a right to confirm or deny articles of incorporation, as well as revoke those articles by court order at a future date. Thus, employers are -- by definition -- "granted" rights by the state. Further, corporations and other organizations can NEVER have inalienable rights; that is something expressed within our constitution that is limited ONLY to human beings. Corporations and other organizations have NO natural rights.

    However, you seem to support the notion that businesses should have every right to terminate employment "at will" for any reason whatsoever. And consider the right of an employee to resign "at will" gives equitable parity to this arrangement. I think Adam Smith would disagree. Speaking of the power relationship between the employee and business holder, as well as foreseeing the potential for future unionization disputes. Smith says:

    "It is not, however, difficult to forsee which of the two parties must, upon all ordinary occasions, have the advantage in the dispute, and force the other into compliance with their terms. The masters, being fewer in number, can combine much more easily; and the law, besides, authorises, or at least does not prohibit their combinations, while it prohibits those of the workmen." - Wealth of Nations, Book I, Ch. "Wages of Labor"

    Smith was actually quite concerned about power disparities between labor and employers leading to massive immoral conduct by employers. He knew very well who were the "masters" and was quite open to the use of government authority to curb unreasonable abuse of power. And while he is considered a paean of free trade due to his theories on capital allocation inefficiencies due to protectionist policies, he would have been the first to say that certain market inefficiency are still desireable by society, even if the misallocate capital in the process. I suspect he would consider our transfer of high technology manufacturing and engineering skills overseas outright policy insanity.

    Anyway, your employer doesn't have a "right" to squat. The owners of that business have the same inalienable "rights" as do us all. The business the own, however, is bound to abide by whatever civil law legislators deem desirable.

    Cheers,
    --Maynard

  37. Just because you can by Pingsmoth · · Score: 2, Insightful

    doesn't mean you should. If you're writing a blog, you should know that you are writing for the world. If you go to work and cuss out your boss, you have every right to do so, but you still may get fired for it. Blogs are no different -- it's not as if you are complaining in your own home to your friends. Your boss could be reading your blog, and if you're dumb enough to cuss him out in that type of public forum, you had better be ready to face the consequences.

    --
    http://www.walkingtaco.com
  38. And here I thought that those days were over... by wintermute42 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Well color me clueless. I thought that in the current job market you could not be an egotistical software engineer, since there is no shortage of engineers. This story sounds like something from the 1990s.

    But perhaps it is just that I am a humble mortal of minimal skills and this is why I have this impression.

  39. hints for safe speech by edward.virtually@pob · · Score: 3, Informative

    1. be anonymous or use an alias
    2. avoid using personally related specifics
    3. be ready to accept the consequences of being id'd

    bloging about where you work in your own name breaks all three of these.

    fwiw, an interesting historical fact is that the founding fathers used aliases when submitting letters to the colonial newspapers advocating revolution against england -- for obvious reasons. these days most newspapers will not accept letters without verification of identity, which is one reason online commentary is more popular and expresses more risky opinions.

  40. Re:Personal time reflects who you are by Barnoid · · Score: 2, Funny

    I do have a personal website that I use to promote who I am and I do try to get employers to look at it. There are a few things I want them to take from it:

    a) I am a well rounded person.
    b) I like to do a diverse range of things
    [...]


    and then your sig:
    I've spent my money on booze, women, drugs, and the rest I just wasted mnewberg.com

    Just pray your employer doesn't read /.

  41. Hmm by Chanc_Gorkon · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I can see being fired for a lewd picture taken in the workplace. I can see being fired for revealing a hot new product on the web. I can see being fired if you revealed other corporate secrets on your blog but I cannot see why the Queen of the Sky was fired. First off, the pictures on the blog don't even reveal to me that she worked for Delta. So what that she showed a bit of cleavage. I have seen more cleavage when the attendent was serving my drink! Maybe we do need to revisit the first amendment. It should be allowed for you to state your opinion of your boss on your web page....just don't reveal his name! ;)

    --

    Gorkman

  42. Mass media desperately trying to scare bloggers by michaelmalak · · Score: 4, Insightful
    So CNN is jumping on the bandwagon of scaring bloggers. The Washington Post did it last month. See the latest in my "media desperately trying to ignore bloggers" series, Wash Post desperately trying to scare bloggers. Actually, we can see that the mainstream media has now progressed from the ignore phase to the badmouth phase (analogous to Microsoft's behavior toward Linux).

    Regardless that the risk of losing a job is real, the CNN and Washington Post stories fail to mention the benefits to society of news blogs like mine that highlight the relevance of buried stories, and even break stories from time to time.

    The press is supposed to be acting as the unofficial fourth branch of the U.S. government, to keep the other three in check. This is eloquently summarized in a 2002 6th Circuit Court decision:

    In our democracy, based on checks and balances, neither the Bill of Rights nor the judiciary can second-guess government's choices. The only safeguard on this extraordinary governmental power is the public, deputizing the press as the guardians of their liberty.(1) "An informed public is the most potent of all restraints upon misgovernment[.]" Grosjean v. Am. Press Co., 297 U.S. 233, 250 (1936). "[They] alone can here protect the values of democratic government." New York Times v. United States, 403 U.S. 713, 728 (1971) (per curiam) (Stewart, J., concurring).

    [...] [Footnote 1] A draft of the First Amendment specifically referred to the press as "one of the great bulwarks of liberty." New York Times v. United States, 403 U.S. 713, 716 (1971) (per curiam) (Black, J., concurring).

    If the mainstream media were doing its job to serve society, it would picking up the stories from blogs rather than trying to scare bloggers. The bloggers are the ones on the front lines defending democracy, not the mainstream media. The mainstream media is interested only in defending its bottom line. (Which actually -- at least for those that are publicly traded -- they are required by law to do. How did we end up with such laws that strike at the heart of the First Amendment?)

    The mainstream media is scared. After the tenth anniversary of Yahoo!, they haven't figured out yet what to do with the Internet. In a desperate bid, the Washington Post just bought Slate -- a marriage as divine as AOL/Time Warner. Here are two quick suggestions for any mainstream media moguls who happen to be reading this:

    1. Provide deep links to primary source documents like the bloggers do (court decisions, legislative bills, corporate press releases, etc.)
    2. Allow the readership to vote stories up to the front page. (Advanced: provide for affinity groups, in the manner of Amazon.)
    It's not that simple, of course. The mainstream media is afraid of losing access to information sources who also happen to be subjects of news stories from time to time -- e.g., the White House. There is also probably a bit of old-fashioned snobbery, that they're here to tell us the news, not to give us primary sources nor to let us participate in editorial decisions.

    The first mainstream media outlet that can leverage its brand, overcome these hurdles, and embrace the nature of the Internet (namely, linking and collaboration) stands to make a financial killing while simultaneously living up to their charge by the founding fathers of being our "guardian of liberty."

  43. Re:Jeez.. by Macadamizer · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "Um, I could be wrong, but my understanding is that many states, not just Montana, are not at-will states. I believe California is not at-will, for instance."

    All of the states except for Montana are at-will states. Don't get confused with "right-to-work" states -- not all states are "right-to-work" -- but all except Montana are at-will.

    At-will means that your employer may terminate you at any time for any reason that isn't specifically illegal, and you have the right to leave at any time without giving any notice. Right-to-work means that in general you can't be forced to join a union.

    "They certainly have a lot of other employee-friendly laws, such as noncompete agreements being unenforcable."

    In general you are correct -- there are a very limited number of areas where California will enforce a non-compete, see California Business and Professions code 16600. Interestingly, one of the area wherre a California non-compete CAN be enforced is deals with artists and writers who draw comic books...

    --

    "That's not even wrong..." -- Wolfgang Pauli
  44. Employers' control ends at clock out. by CherniyVolk · · Score: 4, Insightful


    I'm ex-Navy (US Navy). One thing I noticed while serving was a distinct reaction us "smurfs" had when "kahkis" (officers and chiefs) were present. Neither group could relax. Relax in the sense of lowering formalities, we continued to show the exact same military bearing and the excessive drinking didn't start till the cheifs and officers left. I learned, that there is good reason to seperate your social life and your professional life and gaurd this seperation fiercly.

    Companies enforcing their regulation beyond the scope of their assets (workspace as far as I'm concerned) is both ignoble, and if it's not illegal it should be.

    Instead of companies accepting the fact they are increasingly subject to public opinion (Internet, blogs, free communications to Hong Kong etc.), they prefer to oppress us and fire those that pop off hints that investors and share holders might not have known. I bet companies wouldn't like it one bit if I told them that if I am to abide by their corporate policy, on my free time, then they should pay me the overtime ontop of my salary for 24hrs work per day; 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year. Microsoft wouldn't even last long with employee pay being that high!

    I very much disagree with the extortion these companies are pushing onto the workers. But, there is a precedent that the companies might use.

    I'm a government worker. I hold a clearance. I'm not paid 24/7 all year round to... maintain my clearance... however, I gladly do so becuase I work for the government and the nature of my job. It's complicated I suppose, here's the difference in another way... I gladly pay taxes to support my government, but I do not want to live under the thumb of a corporate monopoly. That's the best way I can put it. Companies are different, and they are in NO position to enforce their policies on me while I'm not on the clock.

    I say that every person that works for any public company should open up a blog. Every one of us, and talk about our work on our blogs. They CAN'T fire the entire work force, even if they tried the government would step in and settle matters.

    Watch out, here comes Big-Business!

  45. Re:Jeez.. by TwistedSquare · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Unless you are a member of a union, have a bonafide employment contract, or live and work in Montana, your boss can fire you for any reason at any time -- that's "at will" emplyment for you.

    At the risk of asking a stupid question, is it not normal to have an employment contract? I've seen this "unless you have a contract" thing a few times in this discussion, and was surprised. I'm pretty sure that there is a law here in the UK that states you must have an employment contract within 13 weeks of beginning work, and if you don't have a contract I think you'd generally consider your job to be a bit on the dodgy side... is this not the case in the US?

  46. Just a gentle reminder by Moraelin · · Score: 2, Interesting

    One day, me and a couple of co-workers were out having a smoke, watching the gentle bunnies graze. And along comes this big cat (siberian maybe?), scares the bunnies away and _literally_ goes and uses one bunny hole as a toilet. Hey, I suppose it beat digging her own hole for that.

    Basically just because you're a gentle bunny, doesn't mean that the others will leave you alone.

    "If someone speaks to hurt me, have I given them
    cause? Is there something I have said or done that has caused them pain?
    Probably not; they probably weren't doing it intentionally, and simply
    wounded me in blithe, unconcerned self-interest. They are, after all,
    management.
    "

    Management isn't your only problem there, Mr Bunny. Some of your team mates might be wolves just as well. You'd be surprised what petty low-reward interests can spark a jolly good office backstabbing game.

    For starters, there's always the purpose of making oneself look good. Which often involves making everyone else look bad. For example, being seen as a better programmer might give someone ideas like "hey, if I don't do something about it, this guy will get promoted before me."

    Yes, you've said you don't even intend to be one of the "blood-gargling wolves in management", but that won't stop anyone from trying to push you off a cliff anyway. Better safe than sorry.

    Or then there's always just petty narrow-mindedness. I've already posted several times the story of the marketer-turned-programmer co-worker that made it his personal quest to get both female programmers on his floor fired. He succeeded too. And _only_ those. Why? I wouldn't know.

    Or then there's the "no good deed goes unpunished" kind of co-worker. The person you helped, might have become your arch-enemy: you know he's incompetent, and that makes you potentially dangerous.

    I've met one like that too: so utterly incompetent, that he couldn't even write code that compiles. _Not_ an exaggeration. I mean, _literally_. As far as it eventually turned out his _only_ skill was faking a resume, but had _zero_ knowledge of programming. So he asks some co-workers for help. And they do take pity and write his modules for him. What does the idiot do? Try to badmouth them to his boss.

    Or then there are cases where someone might hate you just because you do your job. For example, I've had an admin co-worker go on a berserk crusade against me, for a rather silly difference of opinions.

    See, he had to be admin for an utterly dysfunctional piece of crap. Had all my compassion for that too. He wanted to convince upper management that the product is crap and should be replaced by something that at least works. Had all my support there too. Heck, he had the support of every single programmer in the division: that crap was just as much of a pain in development as it was to admin.

    The problem? Management couldn't be convinced as long as all they saw was that the programs do work. With a lot of extra effort and cost, partly admin work partly programmer work to implement weird workarounds, but hey, they do run.

    So to make his point, he wanted that we all stop doing work-arounds and let productive programs crash and burn. Let the whole damn project fail, if needed. Just to make a point to management. And that's where he no longer had my support. I was pretty outspoken that no, no matter what it takes, our programs _must_ run. The boss will, of course, be informed how much extra time and budget it cost to implement those workarounds and make the programs run on that crap server. But no, I will _never_ deliberately sabotage the project just to make a point like that.

    Somehow that must have marked me as his arch-enemy. I was one of those that caused him to be stuck adminning that piece of crap.

    So next thing I know, he goes on an all out berserk crusade to prove that all my code is crap. And when I mean "berserk", I mean complete with fits of hysteria.

    I should probably say: "luckily". See, he was a nerd like us, not a professional backstabber, so he just threw a _massive_ fit. An outright offensive like that is easier to defuse. If I had offended a marketter-turned-programmer, on the other hand, I probably never would have even known what he's doing against me.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
  47. Re:How about brand preference, etc? by Mycroft_VIII · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This seems a fairly good place to point out that the first amendment is an injunction against the government, not against private companies and individuals. Though there are laws that extend limited protections, such as whistle-blower laws.
    So yes your employer can fire you for saying things he doesn't want to hear, but the government can't lock you up for your opinions (in theory, exceptions do exist).

    Mycroft

    --
    https://signup.leagueoflegends.com/?ref=4c3ed6600b6ea
  48. Don't bite the hands that feed you by itraor · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Writing damaging things about one's own company is foolish at best. Companies are people organisations, subject to flaws and imperfections. Members are supposed to compromise on some basic rules where trust and respect for what's in the group's interest are importants. By letting you in, a hiring organisation is entrusting you to their confidential circle. Going out public with the things you learn is not constructive at all - family secrets should remain with the family, if i may. There usually are ways to voice concerns and discuss things, which is no god given right to mess about - what would it be like if everyone would get their way? Employees are supposed to do their bit for the company, not attack it on one hand and claim a paycheck with the other. How difficult is it to grasp such trivial fact?

    Writing is also an art, not everybody is able to write insightful yet civilised text, it might be better to seek some coaching at the start. Perhaps searching Google for the beginner's guide for publishing on the internet might help - not that i'm aware of anything of that kind. It's great that the web makes it easy for anyone to publish stuff, sadly it's never been this easy for all kinds of stupidity to hit the masses at lightning speed.

    Writing flames on a blog is the same as releasing the hounds on a prey, you're publicly calling for others to have a go at your organisation. What's the point in that? Why do you bother calling in everyday?

    If possible i would avoid hiring anyone with a past history of flaming their current employers on their blogs, chances are they will do it again.

    My advices, if you've got to get it out of your chest and you still want to stay with your employer:

    • Keep it private. Most tools allow this. And indeed blogging is reminiscent of personal diaries, which everyone knows usually are really private or published only after their owners are dead or feel they're done with.
    • Back home we have a saying that Everyone loves the village idiot, but noone brags about him /her being family. Don't be the village idiot.
    • Talk to your boss in private - Many times this can actually work, unless your boss really doesn't like your brand of aftershave - that can't be helped. Take your boss out for a drink and let it all out. If he/she sacks you for that you can still blog it that the pointy-haired nitwit (TM) never got it. But then you're gone from the company, exactly my point.
  49. Blogs are PUBLIC by gidds · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Exactly.

    Maybe the real problem here is people who assume that because only a couple of close friends talk to them about their blog, that they are the only people who read it. Or, more importantly, the only people who can read it.

    Whether it feels so or not, a blog is public. Anyone can read it. That includes your boss, your MD, your legal department, your colleagues, your parents, your partner -- in short, any and all of the people you criticise, insult, or slander. If you wouldn't wish any of those people to read it, then don't put it on your blog. D'oh...

    --

    Ceterum censeo subscriptionem esse delendam.

  50. Re:How about brand preference, etc? by hesiod · · Score: 2, Informative

    > that doesn't mean this poor guy's rights were somehow violated. People get fired from jobs for wrong reasons all the freakin time.

    There's a term for that: wrongful dismissal, and yes, it's against the law.