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Software Patents In The European Union Continued...

Christopher Reimer writes "O'Reilly Policy DevCenter has a nice overview concerning the legalizing software patents in the European Union. From the article: 'The Computer Implemented Inventions Directive (CIID), which seeks to clarify the issue, is still being fought over in the EU and may or may not result in legalizing them. For small and medium enterprises (SMEs) and in particular, free software projects, there is much to lose.'"

59 of 255 comments (clear)

  1. Lights, Camera, Inaction by Stanistani · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Would like to hear from any European Slashdotters who have actually written to or phoned or emailed their elected representatives on this noxious attempt to hobble innovation.

    Any response from your public "servants?"

    1. Re:Lights, Camera, Inaction by lordsilence · · Score: 5, Interesting

      We've tried talking to our politicians in sweden, they are either too unknowing about these topics or just dont care.

      Touchy topic, but many swedish citizens want to leave the EU.

    2. Re:Lights, Camera, Inaction by cortana · · Score: 5, Informative
    3. Re:Lights, Camera, Inaction by Rovaani · · Score: 2, Interesting

      My parliament group (Finnish conservatives) has been very co-operative and opposed the bill. Quite weird actually, the supposedly pro-business right-wingers listening to their voters and actually doing something for the small guys while the anti-business socialists are very much pro-patents and don't even want to hear the other side of the issue.

      --
      Karma: Good! Napster: Baad!
    4. Re:Lights, Camera, Inaction by hazee · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Yeah, I wrote to the 6 MEPs that represent my region (Yorkshire and Humberside). They include 2 Labour MEPs (Richard Corbett and Linda McAvan), 2 Conservative MEPs (Edward McMillan Scott and Timothy Kirkhope), a Liberal Democrat (Diana Wallis) and an member of the UK Independance Party (Godfrey Bloom).

      That was on the 1st of March. So far, I have had exactly 1 response, from Edward McMillan Scott, and that consisted of a standard form letter, indicating that the Conservatives were *for* the proposed Directive on Computer Implemented Inventions, because it would "offer [the patent office] secure legal grounds for refusing a patent for an invention involving pure software".

      The letter ended up by stating that the European Parliament had voted to restart the process, indicating that he (or more likely the secratary who selected the form letter response) hadn't actually read my letter, which was to protest about this vote to restart being ignored by the Commission, as reported on Slashdot.

      To date, I haven't received so much as a "thank you for your letter" from any of the others.

      This was the first time I have ever been motivated enough to write to my representatives. Considering the complete lack of a response, it may be the last.

      I can see now why direct action is so appealing to so many these days. It's the only way to get anything done.

    5. Re:Lights, Camera, Inaction by borum · · Score: 3, Informative

      In denmark there has been quite an effort amongst small/medium sized companies to get the danish government to changes its vote in the EU council.

      A majority from the opposition forced our representive (who is in favour of software patents) to "vote no" at the council meeting this last monday.
      But he got around the command by NOT forcing a vote...
      People are still pissed at that. I know that i am :|

      So, we'll have a vote on a EU constitution later this year and unless someone convinces me otherwise, i'll assume that the system is fucked up and vote 'no'.

      And THAT is what i've told my MEP....

    6. Re:Lights, Camera, Inaction by realkiwi · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Yes. I wrote to the French MEP who is on employment and international trade comitees and who is my political color.

      In reply I was forwarded a press statement that says

      1. It isn't over _we_ haven't decided.
      2. What is with the notion that the process is undemocratic. We the parliment decide and everything that has gone before is normal procedure.
      3. Patents can only be applied to software that is part of hardware. Business logic can not be patented.

      NOTE this is my reading of a press statement in French and in politician language.

      Now I bet that it will take a lot longer than those trying to push patents on everything under the sun would like. And I hope that in the end basic programming ideas and business logic will not be covered by patents in Europe as this political group says in its PR.

      --
      realkiwi
    7. Re:Lights, Camera, Inaction by hazee · · Score: 5, Informative

      Well, would you believe it; seconds after I posted my previous message, I got a response from Richard Corbett MEP. He includes a nice summary of his position, copied here:

      "My position is as follows:

      * I am not in favour of the patenting of software as exists in the US.

      * Europe needs a uniform legal approach to stop the drift towards extending patentability to areas, which would not have been traditionally allowed, and to stop patentability of pure business methods, algorithms or mathematical methods.

      * Software products as such, must not be patented.

      * Opensource software must be allowed to flourish and the Commission must ensure that this Directive must not have adverse effects on opensource software and small software developers.

      * Patents and the threat of litigation must not be used as an anti-competitive weapon to squeeze out small companies."

      I'm much more encouraged by those views. Let's just hope they translate into actions.

    8. Re:Lights, Camera, Inaction by Megasphaera+Elsdenii · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yup, wrote a personal letter to all of the 26 Dutch MEPs (8 parties. Yes, we have quite a few of them). Had responses from 6 parties, many of them in fact personal replies. The reactions were friendly, and many of the MEPs (or their cow-orkers) seemed to enjoy the attention they got. They seemed to really have read the letters. Conclusion: it really works if you send a personal e-mail. Tips: write a personal story, tell them who you are, what your own interest is, how it will affect you personally. BE POLITE, and don't froth at the mouth. Try to give references to unsuspected sources (EU pages, Financial Times, The Economist, to back up your claims (e.g.., include links to more than just ffii.org).

      Results: 4 out of six responding were very much against the way things have been going: GroenLinks (left), ChristenUnie (centre right/religious), EuropaTransparant (center), D'66 (center); 1 (VVD (right)) was a cautious 'perhaps if the obvious faults are fixed', and 1 was in favour (CDA; christian democrat). Those not responding are leftwing, and are likely against as well.

      Vote-wise, this still doesn't look good (depending on what VVD does). In other words: please do as I did, and please write a letter! I know it takes time, but what else can one do?

  2. Follow the money by Broiler · · Score: 5, Insightful

    For small and medium enterprises (SMEs) and in particular, free software projects, there is much to lose.
    And for the attorneys much to gain...

    --
    My sigs offend the max # of people all over the world, regardless of race, religion, color, sex or creed. It's a gift.
    1. Re:Follow the money by ratamacue · · Score: 2, Insightful
      And for government much to gain (as with any expansion of government). Even if a government program fails outright, government still gains. This is because government does not generate its revenue through voluntary trade, and thus is not bound to its level of success. (Typically, government programs which fail are rewarded with MORE revenue, rather than eliminated as they would be if they were a voluntary undertaking.)

      Hell, the very fact that government is considering these expansions of power is a benefit to government. They don't work for free. I'm sure this is one reason why the issue keeps coming back from the dead: every time it raises its ugly head, government makes a buck.

      I would also take issue with the story's wording -- to "legalize" patents doesn't make any sense. The term "legalizing" refers to the de-criminalizing of criminalized acts (typically acts of non-aggression, those which aren't criminal by human nature but only by the arbitrary rule of government). A more sensible term for the story to use would be "imposing".

  3. Leave the EU by amcguinn · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Preventing the directive going ahead now is probably impossible. It would make more sense to get out of it by leaving the EU. If two countries were to leave, the whole edifice would probably collapse.

    1. Re:Leave the EU by Boydacus · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I've got to agree. If everyone is pissing sideways because they can't get their way and feel like they're getting manhandled, then how about actually complaining to your government to leave. The EU is a farse anyway, made simply as an organized trade guild of sorts. Once they can solidify their control on industry (or the internet for that matter), then let's see how happy-go-lucky Europeans are then.

    2. Re:Leave the EU by nickco3 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Preventing the directive going ahead now is probably impossible.

      I disagree. The European Parliament is a relatively young institution that has recently begun flexing it's muscles against the Commission. Last October all the different nations and all the different political parties came together and successfully blocked Rocco Buttiglione's nomination as Justice Commissioner, even though the Parliament technically doesn't have that power.

      The Parliament as an institution is showing an interest in extending it's authority, and has so far had it's views on this directive ignored. It's possible that the Parliament could shoot it down out of pure bloody-minded, turf-war politics.

      --
      -- Nick "Hallo this is Beel Gates, und I pronounce weendows as ... WEENdows"
  4. The Kzinti solution seems applicable here by KlomDark · · Score: 4, Interesting

    "Incredible," said the kzin. "If the Patriarchy tried to force such a law on kzinti, we would exterminate the Patriarchy for its insolence."
    - Ringworld (Larry Niven)

  5. Comforting by goldspider · · Score: 5, Funny

    It's good to know that European beaurocrats are every bit as ineffective and corrupt as our own here in the states.

    Let's hear it for consistency!

    --
    "Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
  6. Re:Is it even worth it? by Uncle_Al · · Score: 5, Informative

    Please do not get confused. The Parliament is doing the Right Thing(tm).

    It is the European Commision which does what it wants..or rather what Big Business(tm) wants...

  7. Cover the EU with prior art by Quiberon · · Score: 2, Informative
    My contribution, Linux-for-Windows, looks like this http://home.btconnect.com/chrisandcarolyn/k37qemu. png and this http://home.btconnect.com/chrisandcarolyn/kanotix- for-windows.png .

    Linux runs everywhere, and it works ! Let no-one say (in the future) that they invented some part of it, claim it's novel, and encumber it with a patent.

    Torrents available here http://home.btconnect.com/chrisandcarolyn/torrents /

  8. we don't want them that's for sure by Mariani · · Score: 5, Insightful

    FTA: "If more programmers and SMEs approach their MEPs and go beyond the single letter, we may yet win."

    But how do we as IT people explain the general public this would be a disaster to European economy? What could start some emotion going for this issue? The customer is also going to be victimised! Low quality and low security software galore probably. But do they know?

    Somehow I know this concerns everybody, not only people in the industry. Because democracy is being ignored for something a lot of people don't understand doesn't mean they can get away with it.

    1. Re:we don't want them that's for sure by scsirob · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Get the press and the unions in action. Explain to them that, just like in the US, many labour jobs have already been migrated to low-wages countries. Explain that, just like the US, the only way to have a viable economy is to switch to a knowledge end service economy. Software development is one area where Europe could shine.

      Then point out that any incentive to invest in software knowledge for small and medium size companies is pointless when they can be killed instantaneously by large corps with large patent portfolio's.

      --
      To Terminate, or not to Terminate, that's the question - SCSIROB
    2. Re:we don't want them that's for sure by nasdev · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Well, by now this whole Directive is not just about software patentability anymore, it's also about the democracy as it is being followed or in this case largely ignored by the European commision. My advice to start some emotion with people not in the business is to approach it from that angle, ie: explain how this whole series of events is undemocratical. Just like you said yourself:

      Because democracy is being ignored for something a lot of people don't understand doesn't mean they can get away with it.


      You're right, so tell people exactly that, democracy is being ignored, if that doesn't get them interested in this, then nothing really will, there are always people out there who don't give a damn about anything. Anyhow, this is the approach that I took to explain this whole thing to my grandfather and he certainly took it to heart.
  9. Definition, please. by dark-br · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I know a considerable amount (for a programmer) about patent law, and I've read a fair number of patents.
    I do not, however, know how one can clearly distinguish between software and non-software patents.

    It is not as easy as one might think. Many things we call "software patents" do not mention software or even computers. This didn't use to be the case. They used to insist that an example hardware system be described in the patent, perhaps as a "preferred embodiment". Now many patents simply describe an algorithm. Whether that algorithm is carried out by computer, sliderule, abacus, or pencil and paper is often not explained.

    A further complication arises when software is a part of an invention that also has hardware components. There are many such inventions today.

    Unfortunately, "I know a software patent when I see one" probably wouldn't cut it in the courts. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than I could comment on this problem.

    1. Re:Definition, please. by Per+Abrahamsen · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Anything that can be implemented on a general purpose computer should be unpatentable.

    2. Re:Definition, please. by spitzak · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The software in a mixed device should not be patented. If the software were somehow part of the patent it must have no obvious use other than to drive the patented device. This means the software is useless and valueless without the patented device, so there is no reason to protect it!

      The real threat of software patents is that they are used to lock up interfaces. No patent office would patent a new dimension of bolt threads so that a company can then make devices that require their own fasteners. ALL software patents are exactly like this and this is the real reason they should be disallowed.

  10. Re:Is it even worth it? by EkkiEkkiShiwaddle · · Score: 3, Insightful
    You have two choices: you can either stand idly by and watch the whole thing happen, or you can at least attempt to do something about it.

    Being a software developer myself, I'd rather go with the 1% chance that I can make a difference, than standing idly by.

    You never know...

  11. What the hell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Personally I think the Europeans who are pushing software patents are being really dumb. Are they even Europeans? Don't they realize that if they establish software patents, that all the prior patents established in the U.S. will override the patents in the EU, and U.S. Corps will be able to extend their power over the EU?

    If this isn't the case, how are the people who patent stuff in the EU that's already been patented in the U.S. going to have a leg to stand on?

    I'd be really interested to know if the people pushing for software patents had any connections with U.S. based corporations... I smell somethin fishy...

  12. Do we really want to get rid of software patents? by Augusto · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I just had this discussion with a co-worker yesterday.

    Now, to be clear, I'm not a fan of software patents. A lot of these patents that I see enforced, are for trivial things that shouldn't have been patented in the first place, like "one click" shopping. And what about general things like sorting algorithms, if bubble sort was patented, it would have done serious harm to just even teaching the profession.

    Having said that, I see that most people on slashdot want to get rid of software patents, but what I'm wondering is, why only software? I think you are either for patents or against, and that computer scientists basically "disarming" themselves is not a good idea.

    Unless I'm missing something, it seems people value physical inventions more than software ones, and that doesn't make sense to me. Sometimes the software "inventions" are even more complex and influencial than your physical ones. If you say, get rid of the software patents, we're saying our work doesn't deserve the same protection as work from other fields? Just because our work is software? That doesn't make sense to me.

    Maybe we should raise the bar on software patents, maybe we shouldn't let "business processes" be patented (one click for example), but I don't think it's consistent to say CS work is less deserving than work from other fields.

    --

    - sigs are for wimps.
  13. The Simplest Solution? by bloodstar · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why not simply shorten the lifespan of patents to say 2 years? 20 is certainly too long. And yes, I know it would have to get past the corporations who are trying to protect their (short term) interests. But from a realistic standpoint, 2 years is a long time to have a monopoly on an idea or concept. You can get a tremendous head start, and if the patented idea is a good one, a pretty damn good market share. But the competition still has an opportunity to use the ideas and generate innovation advancement after that time period.

    I know corperations in America tend to be short sighted, but if I can see that China and other countries are simply going to ignore the (software) patents and hammer ahead with technological innovation, why can't the higher ups see it?

    --
    "The bass, the rock, the mic, the treble. I like my coffee black, just like my metal" - Mindless Self Indulgence
  14. Patents trouble for EU by menace3society · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The whole thing with software patents is funny to me, because it means the EU is squandering its opportunity to become the next superpower (in competition with China maybe) in a few decades when the US's technological dominance has faded completely. Software patents might cause the EU to sink just as far the US will, in technological terms at least.

  15. Re:Is it even worth it? by iztaru · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The idea of democracy is that you can express your opinions and try to get others to think as you do. So, it is worth to figh against software patents if you found that you are expanding your way of thinking.

    The reason behind the power of the corporation is because they say: I represent myself and all my employees (that is not necessarily true, but the politicians do not care about it). However, in theory, we should able to:

    1. Identify our position about a topic.
    2. Select a set of representatives
    3. Loby to get support from other people
    4. Go to elections
    5. Do as we said that we were going to do in the congress.
  16. U.S vs Europe by astralbat · · Score: 2, Interesting
    IMHO, Europe is just looking to play itself against the US in an attempt to win it's businesses lots of cash.
    Am I right in thinking that this will cause US patents to become valid in Europe and vice versa?

    Obviously open source development methods are trampled on since this doesn't make politicians enough money.

  17. Yep by Rovaani · · Score: 4, Informative
    My parliament group (Finnish conservatives) has been very co-operative and opposed the bill.

    Quite weird actually, the supposedly pro-business right-wingers listening to their voters and actually doing something for the small guys while the anti-business socialists are very much pro-patents and don't even want to hear the other side of the issue.

    --
    Karma: Good! Napster: Baad!
  18. See this from another angle by ajs318 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If the directive is approved, it will make it clear that any software patent granted up until now was unlawful and is therefore null and void. This will mean that patent holders will be forced to re-apply for their patents as soon as the directive is made law!

    Meanwhile, anything that would have violated one of the unlawful patents is now legitimate prior art for blocking the re-application.

    --
    Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
    1. Re:See this from another angle by MadMoses · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If the directive is approved, it will make it clear that any software patent granted up until now was unlawful and is therefore null and void. This will mean that patent holders will be forced to re-apply for their patents as soon as the directive is made law!

      You are so wrong.

      Software patents are not legal in the EU under current laws. But we already have about 30.000 software patents here. Nobody cares (well, those who are against software patents complain, but nobody in power cares). The patent office just continues granting those patents.

      And you think that if they now pass a law that would allow software patents, that would render them null and void? No, all those patents will remain, because then, they will be actually unprohibited and retroactively made valid.

      --

      Do not be alarmed. This is only a test.
  19. Leave the US [wass: Re:Leave the EU] by gnuman99 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "I've got to agree. If everyone is pissing sideways because they can't get their way and feel like they're getting manhandled, then how about actually complaining to your government to leave. The US is a farse anyway, made simply as an organized trade guild of sorts. Once they can solidify their control on industry (or the internet for that matter), then let's see how happy-go-lucky Americans are then."

  20. Re:Do we really want to get rid of software patent by FunWithHeadlines · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The reason is that you patent an invention, not speech, and software is speech. Software, like the written word in other forms of speech, is already protected by copyright. Patent protection on top of that is redundant and problematic in its own right, for how can you patent speech?

  21. Re:Is it even worth it? by Wudbaer · · Score: 5, Informative

    This is not true. The parliament voted explicitly against the directive as presented to them by the EU Commission and made many important changes. However, the broken decision process in the EU allowed the Commission to totally ignore the Parliament's decision and revive the Commission's old version of the directive to vote about.

  22. Why should it affect open source? by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Why should software patents affect open-source? Hundreds of people all over the place work on open-source, and generally, no one in particular actually FINANCIALLY BENEFITS from writing and maintaining OSS.

    So, if some croporation decides to sue for patent infringement the makers of a particular piece of OSS, who do they sue? Every single developper? How are they going to round them all up and corral them into a courtroom? How are they gonna prove the actual degree of involvement of each and everyone of them?

    Or are they going to sue the end-users? How could they ferret-out all the end-users of a particular piece of software?

    If the going gets though, the ongoing OSS efforts will simply go underground with a vengeance, as they won't have any scruples in blatantly siphonning-off actual patents. And with easy encription and free-net to distribute information, any effort to counter OSS is doomed to failure. And any "examples" brought out by courts at the request of croporations will simply strengthen the resolve to break the vicious IP cartels. Once the idea that IP is theft enters the public's mind, no amount of repression will be able to curtail the demise of IP "industries".

    1. Re:Why should it affect open source? by pesc · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Or are they going to sue the end-users?

      This is the general idea. M$ (or preferably a proxy, like SCO or someone smarter) will single out some very large users that are using Linux. They will be sued for patent infringement.

      You will be hearing the word indemnification so much your ears will fall off.

      The other companies will be FUDed into not considering Linux because who can offer indemnification? M$ can offer indemnification to all its customers because it is cross-licensing its patent portfolio. Can your company risk using IT without indemnification guarantees?

      That FOSS go underground with a vengeance fits perfectly with M$ plans. That way it won't get any backing from commercial vendors. Linux can be tolerated if it stays a hobby project.

      --

      )9TSS
    2. Re:Why should it affect open source? by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Why should software patents affect open-source?

      Well, as an example, the GPL:

      7. If, as a consequence of a court judgment or allegation of patent infringement or for any other reason (not limited to patent issues), conditions are imposed on you (whether by court order, agreement or otherwise) that contradict the conditions of this License, they do not excuse you from the conditions of this License. If you cannot distribute so as to satisfy simultaneously your obligations under this License and any other pertinent obligations, then as a consequence you may not distribute the Program at all. For example, if a patent license would not permit royalty-free redistribution of the Program by all those who receive copies directly or indirectly through you, then the only way you could satisfy both it and this License would be to refrain entirely from distribution of the Program.

      If any portion of this section is held invalid or unenforceable under any particular circumstance, the balance of the section is intended to apply and the section as a whole is intended to apply in other circumstances.

      It is not the purpose of this section to induce you to infringe any patents or other property right claims or to contest validity of any such claims; this section has the sole purpose of protecting the integrity of the free software distribution system, which is implemented by public license practices. Many people have made generous contributions to the wide range of software distributed through that system in reliance on consistent application of that system; it is up to the author/donor to decide if he or she is willing to distribute software through any other system and a licensee cannot impose that choice.

      This section is intended to make thoroughly clear what is believed to be a consequence of the rest of this License.

      8. If the distribution and/or use of the Program is restricted in certain countries either by patents or by copyrighted interfaces, the original copyright holder who places the Program under this License may add an explicit geographical distribution limitation excluding those countries, so that distribution is permitted only in or among countries not thus excluded. In such case, this License incorporates the limitation as if written in the body of this License.

      Note that with this restriction in the GPL, it is quite possible that distribution of, say, Linux under the GPL could be made illegal, assuming that someone (MS?) wanting to stop Linux had one (1) patent on an idea essential to Linux.

      Note, however, that Linux could still be distributed in places which don't recognize software patents (China, India, f'rinstance) in spite of MS's (or anyone else's) software patents.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
  23. Re:Do we really want to get rid of software patent by Xylaan · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Having said that, I see that most people on slashdot want to get rid of software patents, but what I'm wondering is, why only software?

    I believe that the problem is not software vs. non-software patents, but the general quailty of software patents vs. the quality of non-software patents. It's not that software shouldn't be patentable, but that a great deal of the worst offenders are not patents on specific inventions, but entire ideas. In some cases, they're patenting the problem, instead of the solution.

    One example is from the FFII wewbsite: A patent on trapping viruses. After a brief glance through the description and the abstract, it seems reasonable. Except when we look at the claims, this patent attempts to claim all virtual environments used to capture viruses. If you were asked to implement this 'invention', the patent wouldn't help much, as the difficulty of the implmentation is in figuring out how to make it work, and this patent is more of an overall design.

    Examples could be given for good and not-to-broad software patents, but the general feeling is SW patents are usually too broad and too easily infringed. While not allowing any SW patents might be a bit extreme, but it's better than letting them in now and letting them to cause further harm to the software industry.

  24. Implementing Legislation by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Don't these directives require implementing legislation in each individual country? If all the country's elected representatives have been against it, I'd expect it to just not be implemented.

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
    1. Re:Implementing Legislation by nickco3 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It doesn't work like that. The member states have already agreed to the directive in the Council of Ministers and are now legally obliged to implement it within a reasonable time frame. If they don't they can be fined by the European Court of Justice or sued for damages. The likes of Nokia and Microsoft will be able to start legal action.

      --
      -- Nick "Hallo this is Beel Gates, und I pronounce weendows as ... WEENdows"
  25. It's a matter of scale. by Sebastian+Jansson · · Score: 2, Interesting

    That's why there still are a strong EU-critical movement atleast in sweden. I personally firmly believe that a democracy cease to function when it ges too large, USA shows it today, EU will show it tomorrow, when the politicians get too far from the people, people lose interest, just compare the last national election's participation (81%) to EU election's particpation (38%).

  26. Another article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative
    Also, take a look at this article: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/zd /20050304/tc_zd/147060, also published in eWeek, detailing the interaction of the proposed law on 'software patents' with open source.

    I had to mention it, as I am quoted in the article as: "Tom Grek, an IT specialist working with Bristows, a London-based technology law firm". I am an electronic engineer and longtime Slashdot reader now working in law (not quite - yet - a qualified lawyer).

  27. Because software is different by gidds · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Because, as I've said elsewhere, software is qualitatively different from physical inventions.

    For one thing, there's already a perfectly good mechanism for protecting actual software and source code: copyright.

    And for another, the bar to entry is much, much lower with software. You don't need all the resources for mass production, manufacturing, duplication, marketing, or anything other than a web site.

    AIUI, the raison d'être of patents is to protect the inventor: to stop a big company coming along, copying his or her invention, and using their much bigger resources to develop and mass produce the product and lock him or her out. But that's not a problem for software; the big company can't copy the software directly, and they don't have much of an advantage in mass production either. So why have them?

    --

    Ceterum censeo subscriptionem esse delendam.

  28. Letter to Pro-Software Patent Lawyers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    To: All pro-software patent lawyers inc. Carl Oppedahl

    Dear Patent Lawyer,

    You have claimed, based on your experience as a patent lawyer, that software patents can help even small commercial enterprises. Could you please explain why software patents are not harmful both to society and to freedom of expression given the case of an open-source developer who, as a result of working unpaid on his/her project as a hobby giving his/her inventions away freely for the benefit of society, i.e. without any project income, without any corporate project sponsor to pay legal fees, without sufficient personal savings or income to pay for even a brief consultation with a "cheap" patent lawyer, and without a patent lawyer prepared to work pro bono, is threatened with a patent lawsuit by a corporation demanding he/she removes the allegedly infringing software from the project's website, leaving the impoverished developer with no real choice but to comply with the demand and close the project?

    One recent unresolved case, which is not unique, is that of the German mathematician and open-source software developer Helmut Dersch who had no financial choice but to remove his software from his project website. He had no money to pay for a patent application at the time of his own invention, which pre-dates the patent application of the IPX company.

    Here is a summary of the case history.

    I hope you will take the time to reply at moderate length for the sake of explaining to the open-source developer community why software patents are not a threat to completely unfunded open-source projects.

    Thank you for reading this.

    Last posted here without a reply.

  29. Re:Do we really want to get rid of software patent by Qzukk · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There are several reasons I'm against software patents but not other patents:

    1) Software patents tend to be applied for on individual ideas, rather than a single invention. Take a look at Photoshop's splash screen. How many patent numbers are there for that one single program? Not only that, there are dozens, if not hundreds of "ideas" that are embodied in every program. Sorting, for instance: whether you sort emails or high scores, if your program isn't a highschool assignment, it probably uses a sort. Or online help, the concept of which has been around for decades now, yet a company in Japan was just crushed with a patent on it.

    2) The software lifecycle is shorter than the hardware lifecycle. How long have we been using combustion engines now? Fundamentally the basic engine hasn't changed in decades, but people have invented improvements. Have you seen improvements for the Commodore 64's GEOWrite program lately? Does it really need 20 years worth of protection?

    3) Enforcability. Because honestly, the majority of software out there is closed source proprietary stuff, the only way to find out if infringement is actually occurring with a software patent is to sue the victim and force them to show you the source. If I patent an engine design and you start selling it, all I need to do is take apart your engine. If you have a patent on "doing X using A,B,C" and your competitor does X with 1,2,3 you have no way of knowing if they infringe on your patent or not except to sue them and let the courts sort it out. This is what leads to the huge messes like SCO demanding IBM's source, and probably why most companies settle even if they have a strong case: they don't want to give up their source to their competitor. In the end if you're sued and it turns out you're not infringing, the plaintiff gets off with an "oops my bad".

    --
    If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
  30. Council050307 recordings by temponaut · · Score: 2, Informative
    Dutch minister of economic affairs, Brinkhorst was caught lying here. He had the official assignment of parliament to support the Danish to make the subject a B-item, but he didn't! (he supports the patent directive).
    There also were odd problems with the sound: "Someone doesn't want me to speak and switches me off!"

    Council050307 recordings

    1. Re:Council050307 recordings by temponaut · · Score: 2, Informative

      Minister Brinkhorst clarified what he said during the time the microphone was turned off:

      "The outcome of a questioning of Minister Brinkhorst in out from the Dutch Parliament (Tweedekamer) und Tuesday, 8th March 2005 (the day after the Council meeting) was that he told that in his statement he explained that the Nethernlands would support Denmark if they ask for B-Item.

      He was obliged to do so by a parliamentary motion from the Tweedekamer by MP Gerkens."

      http://wiki.ffii.org/ConsTrans050307En

  31. Re:Do we really want to get rid of software patent by Ami+Ganguli · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Patents don't work for software for the same reason they don't work for literature. A computer program, like a novel, is a collection of a great many ideas taken from all over the place. The value isn't in any specific solution, but rather in the way the whole package is combined.

    Imagine if a novelist had to look up every metaphore or interesting sentence structure in a patent database somewhere. On top of that, the database would be organized in such a way that the novelist could never really be sure that he'd found all the relevent patents. If you compare something to an apple, does the patent that mentions comparisons to oranges apply? They're both fruit, after all. The only way to gain reasonable assurance that a given sentence doesn't infringe would be to ask a lawyer, and even the lawyer could only give an opinion - with the final decision to be made by a court.

    If novelists had to work that way, only large companies with defensive patent portfolios of their own could write books. Individuals could never afford the legal staff needed to make sure their work wasn't infringing.

    Software works much the same way. You encounter a problem and you try to solve it. Every time you solve something, even the smallest issue, you might be infringing on somebody's patent. Anybody with a patent portfolio and a lot of lawyers can put you out of business.

    The patent system was meant to encourage people to publish scientific discoveries rather than keeping them as trade secrets. But most software problems are such that the effort to find the patented solution in a database is more than would be required to just solve the problem yourself. There are a few rare exceptions (RSA, for example), but there's no way the handful of gems can outweigh the harm done by patents.

    --
    It is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail. - Abraham Maslow
  32. The President of the European Comission... by carvalhao · · Score: 2, Funny

    ..., Mr Durão Barroso, dismissed the discussion on the issue. He's Portuguese. I am Portuguese. I'm apologize to you all, but we portuguese had to get rid of him somehow... The European Comission was just a lucky coincidence.

  33. A European Commissioner's Statement by malsdavis · · Score: 4, Informative

    I wrote to my MEP about the subject (A Liberal Democrat). While I was surprised to find the Liberal Democrats in favour of patents (being 'lefty' they usually are agianst big business screwing people over) she did send me an intereasting document on the matter which I'll list:

    ----------
    Start of Document
    ----------

    European Commissioner for Internal Market and Services

    Statement to the European Parliament on Computer Implemented Inventions

    European Parliament Plenary Session
    Strasbourg, 8 March 2005

    President,

    the Commission is grateful for this opportunity to make a statement on the proposal on the patentability of computer-implemented inventions. I already had the opportunity to debate the proposal with the Committee on Legal Affairs on 2nd February and to discuss it with the Conference of Presidents on 3rd March. I took very careful note on both occasions of the views of the European Parliament. I noted that the Parliament considers, in general, that its views were not given sufficient weight in the first reading. From the debate in the Legal Affairs Committee, I noted that there are differing views on the substance of the proposal, in particular on its content and purpose.

    The Commission gave the EP's request of 24 February, which was submitted under Article 55 of the Parliament's internal rules of procedure, careful consideration. But the Commission concluded that, at that stage, regrettably, it could not submit a new proposal, as the Parliament requested. Not because the Commission wished to persist stubbornly with the proposal, but because the Council was on the point of adopting a common position.

    As I explained to the Conference of Presidents, the Council reached a political agreement in May 2004 in first reading. The Council has been on the verge of confirming the political agreement in the form of a common position since December 2004. The Commission had supported the political agreement of May 2004. The Commission could, therefore, not go back on its word when the Council was in the process of confirming its common position.

    The Council has now made up its mind and adopted its common position. It did so yesterday at the Competitiveness Council. Jeannot Krecké, Chair of the Competitiveness Council, already explained to the Legal Affairs Committee, the reasons behind the Council's stance. It confirmed its common position, primarily for institutional reasons. The Council wanted to avoid a precedent whereby Member States would be seen to be backing away from a deal they had signed up to in May 2004. The Council confirmed its position to show that a deal is a deal and that it was not creating a log-jam on this dossier, in an area which is key for innovation. Jeannot Krecké noted yesterday, when the Council took its decision, that some Member States had concerns on the substance of the text and that these would be addressed in the second reading.

    The ball is now very clearly in the European Parliament's court. It's for you to decide how you want to play it. I don't have to remind you of the Parliament's rights: we discussed this in the Conference of Presidents. You can, of course, reject or substantially amend the proposal. If the Parliament decides to reject it, then the Commission will respect your wishes. I will not propose a new directive.

    Should you decide to propose amendments, the Commission will give them due consideration. No doubt, there are improvements that can be made. You will understand of course that I cannot speak on behalf of the Council and I would urge the Parliament to engage constructively with the Council in the future on this dossier. I am ready to help in any way.

    Before concluding, I would like to say a few words on the substance of the proposal since the European Parliament will now need to turn its attention to this. The Commission proposed to clarify the legal rules on patentability for software-related inventions. This does not include computer programmes or other softwar

    1. Re:A European Commissioner's Statement by Gopher971 · · Score: 2, Informative

      First of all, I'm irish and wish to apologise to Europe for Mr McCreevey.

      The telling section of the letter to the President of the parliment is this. "You can, of course, reject or substantially amend the proposal. If the Parliament decides to reject it, then the Commission will respect your wishes. I will not propose a new directive." The emphasis is mine.

      It is clear now what has to be done. Contact your EU member of Parliment.http://writetothem.com/

      Do it. Do it now.

      --
      Just you're average nitpicker.
  34. Re:Do we really want to get rid of software patent by muuo · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Exactly!

    Copyright is for speech, patents are for inventions. Software is not an invention! Software is an expression of mathematical theory. Let's look at a concrete example.

    Let's say that I am a contractor and my client wants me to build a bridge across a river. I say sure I know how to do that - no problem. I don't have to worry about patent infringement when building a bridge because the concept of creating a "material object to span open space or water" is not patentable (IANAL and there are some who would make an argument that the concept of a bridge IS patentable but I think that concept is ludicrous. Perhaps someone more familiar with Patent law could let us know whether or not the concept of a bridge is indeed patentable - excluding prior art).

    Building software is like building a bridge (or a building for that matter).

    Let's look at this from the speech perspective. Imagine if you were writing a term paper for school or doing a research project. You need to be able to express the ideas found in your research material but wait....oh I can't say THAT since THOSE words express AN idea that has been patented. You wouldn't be able paraphrase anything. Paraphrasing in term papers or building upon prior research is exactly what we as software developers do every day. I need a way to ingest configuration information into my program so that I can dynamically effect the programs behavior at startup or runtime so I build software to do that so I build something that will do just that (or more likely I use commons-digester or some other OS library that has already solved this problem). So if someone had a patent for "a method for ingesting configuration information into a program that alters behavior dynamically at startup or runtime" then I would be unable to write MY software. It wouldn't matter that I outlined the problem, I examined the technology available, and I produced MY OWN solution to the problem since any solution would fall underneath this patent and thus be infringing. It is ridiculous. Copying someone else's solution verbatim would be wrong and violate copyright...protection exists (ie I can't solve the problem using the same words/code that you did, but I can use my own words).

    Say it with me: software is speech , software is speech, SOFTWARE IS SPEECH

    I'm sure that in the time it took to write this rant the argument has moved on but hey it's my first post, I'll savor it anyway.

    Oh by the way you all owe me big money since I own the following patent:

    Patent 1,678,976,543: "A method for conveying a grouping of words and/or characters in such a way that it forms a witticism, quip, jibe or other similarly or dissimilarly classed phrase at the end of an email, letter, newsgroup posting, or any other form of communication (physical or electronic)"

    --
    This sig has been licensed by above for use in accordance with Patent: 1,678,976,543.
  35. Patent Hucksters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The EU proposal for Software Patents has absolutely no democratic legitimacy. Any government that is supporting this proposal is doing so against the will of the majority of its people, and against the interests of its own economy. Free software has great potential to reduce IT costs for business in Western Europe, and introducing laws that have the potential to harm the development of free software is counterproductive - only supporting big business. As a pro-European, I would be devestated if my representatives in Europe were corrupt enough to be pushed into supporting this law, and as a consequence, I would campaign against any further integration of my country (the UK) with the EU. I would also campaign for UK withdrawl from the EU if this law were passed.
    I believe that patent law in general needs massive reform. How can people sensible patent aspects of the human genome? for example. This is nonsense, and amounts to little more than a law that allows for blatent profiteering at the expense of the common good. Large companies often use patents as an anti-competitive weapon. Patents are often awarded on the most shaky of grounds, and amount to little more than anti-competitive devices.
    Software is inherently unpatentable. It is an expression of ideas, in the same way that a book is an expression of ideas. Books can be copyrighted, as can software. I don't see how patents help to secure the 'Intellectual Property' of commercial organisations.
    The leverage applied by large American companies to EU officials is unacceptable. American business should not be interfering in the internal affairs of the EU, particularly when their Patent system is in such a mess.

  36. It's TOTALLY worth it, yes by WebMink · · Score: 2, Insightful
    It is even really worth fighting software patents in europe when clearly the european parliment will do it's own thing whatever the people say?

    Totally worth it. As an earlier post pointed out, the EP is actually highly aggravated by the actions of the Council of Ministers in approving the Directive without their amendments. Groklaw has the EP's press release on the subject and it's clear the EP is mad as hell - the language borders on the undiplomatic, which for Europe is very unusual.

    "The quarrel between the Commission and Parliament over the directive on the patentability of computer-implemented inventions goes on. During a plenary debate on Tuesday evening, MEPs attacked the Commission's refusal to submit its draft directive for a new first reading by Parliament. They also criticised the directive's scope."

    The reason this upsets the EP is that if the decision is allowed to stand it sets a precedent for binding legislation to be created in Council without any recourse for elected assemblies - if the EP doesn't manage to get all MEPs in the room to vote it down now, the thing will pass unaltered and all EU states will be compelled to implement it as law.

    So, for the first time, we can really make a difference by writing to MEPs and ensuring they are aware that this is a big deal for their constituents. The political trap is set, it's up to us to spring it. Personally I have already gone to WriteToThem and written to my MEPs, it was very easy.

  37. Overview & primer by Bozovision · · Score: 4, Informative

    [There are no doubt numerous errors and ommissions in the text below. Please mod any corrections and additions up.]

    A primer for those of you that aren't in Europe and also for those of you who are in Europe who find the whole thing confusing...

    Europe is a place to the East of the USA, across the big bit of ocean. :-) Europe is made up of lots of countries, two of which, simply for example, are the United Kingdom (aka Britain) and Germany. We've banded together under the banner of the European Union (EU), each as sovereign nations, delegating some roles and responsibilities to the EU where it is in our interests to co-operate. One such example is monetary union - a number of EU countries abolished their currencies and now share the same currency.

    One of the chief issues that the central bodies take care of is 'harmonisation'. Harmonisation is about creating a level playing field across Europe, chiefly in legal and economic senses. A main tool for this is the Directive. The central body consults, then draws up a Directive which outlines a part of law, then the Directive is implemented as law in each of the EU countries, and thus the laws in each country come to some sort of standard.

    The current argument concerns a draft Directive.

    To understand how a Directive is agreed, you need to know who the players are...

    The EU has 5 central bodies of which 3 are of immediate concern with respect to the Directive. The Commission, the Council and the Parliament. The Commission is chiefly to manage things European. The leaders of the Commission (Commissioners) are nominated by national governments and have portfolios. The Parliament is directly elected by the people of Europe in a using a proportional representation system (is this true across all of Europe? It is in the UK.) The role of Parliament is to scrutinise legislation. The Council is composed of representatives of the national governments, and as the Council web page says, this is the main decision-making body, and where the power lies - in national governments making decisions together.

    So what's the process involved in agreeing a Directive and where are we in the process?

    There are numerous arcane rules concerning the process by which Directives comes into being, and it depends on what the legislation covers. For the Computer Implemented Inventions Directive, a draft directive was prepared by the Commission and ratified by the Council (someone - is this right?) and then put before the various committees of the Parliament for comment and voting. Then it went before a Parliamentary plenary sitting, who voted for numerous changes of the original Council version. The legislation then went before the Council once more. They decided to ignore the Parliamentary ammendments and the requests of various parliaments of various countries to restart the whole process, and have decided to send the original Directive (with minor changes?) back to Parliament for the next stage in the process. Parliament has yet to vote.

    The rules for the first and second plenary vote of Parliament are different. The second round has a much higher barrier to introducing changes - an absolute majority is required (someone?) - and if the barrier is not passed then Parliament is assumed to have no objection to the legislation, and it will become a Directive.

    Understand from all of the above that it is the national governments that are driving this legislation forward.

    Is there a need for a Directive at all?

    The need for harmonisation has arisen because different European countries have different standards for judging the allowability of patents involving software, which means that the same patent has been allowed in some countries and not in others. Often the figure of 30,000 European software patents is quoted. (Does anyone know were this comes from?)

    It's easy to see some examples of the sort of thing that has been granted - the European patent office is on

  38. Some advice when writing to Politicians by MrKaos · · Score: 2, Informative
    I can definatley tell you that writing to politicians is worth the effort - it's the only way that people can weild direct influence with politicians. I have done this several times and have even been invited by policy makers to be an advisor to them. I am not an EU citizen.

    Hopefully these points will assist anyone who wants to write to you politicians.

    1. Keep it to ONE page only - any more than that and it won't get read.

    2. Stick to the point, do not indulge yourself by expressing emotion, your letter will not be as effective.

    3. Illustrate why it is a problem - politicians need only be educated about the fact to realise that they will be causing problems for their constituents and likely raise the ire of the public.

    4. Be respectful, address the Member by thier proper title.

    5. Use a dead tree snail mail first, fax second, email last - most politicians ignore email.

    6. Give the politician oppotunity to get political mileage from your suggestions - if they look good and can be seen to be doing good it is more likely they will adopt your position(human nature - whats in it for me).

    7. Use mailmerge but sign each letter personally. You can use the same letter to address all politicians on all sides of politics in your country, or in the case of the EU, other MEPs - it will just demonstrate the level of concern for this issue. You may consider changing the letter in some way to deliberatly target politicians who DON'T agree with your position, they may change thier mind.

    8. Start immediatley, these things move quickly and other "entities" will be lobbying as well, before you know it it becomes law.

    9. If you are really concerned READ the proposed act AND suggest changes. I have done this and it has worked.

    10. THINK about your position, WHAT reasons are there for the member to adopt your position eg. the economy will suffer because small business will be locked into monopoly offerings.

    The bottom line is Politicians are people to and they need to be educated regarding the issues. The good thing about this is one letter from Joe Bloggs == One letter from M$. A corporation maybe able to get direct access to the politician but if thier office is full of letters from people with a dissimilar position it wont be all that effective.

    You can be effective, Do it now

    --
    My ism, it's full of beliefs.