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Work Samples and the Non-Disclosure Agreement?
ahowl asks: "At my previous employer, I signed a traditional NDA, and when I was laid off, I signed another agreement stating I wasn't taking anything with me that belonged to the company. This included all the scripts, stored procedures, and anything else that I had created while employed. However, most of the subsequent jobs that I was looking at wanted work samples. If this continues I could have a ton of work I've done that I can't show anyone, so what can I do?"
Well you could always quit your job.
Oh wait, you got laid off...
Do some work on the side and use that as work samples.
When I want your opinion I will beat it out of you.
Show it to them and then kill them.
Is there no computer related work you do as a hobby? For example work on open source projects etc... If there is then you could use this as evidence. Perhaps whilst job hunting you could work on a small project just to show your capabilities. Also, surely a company would understand this situation and be sympathetic? Especially if they have a similar N.D.A? Another point to consider, surely just detailing the projects you've worked on, what you did and how you did it could be enough evidence of your capabilities without actually showing them the code you made. Plus I'm sure you can display qualities to them such as your ability to work in a team etc... which are just as if not more important than the code you create, so if you appear strong in these areas and explain why you can't show past work then you could still be in the running for the job. Just my tuppence, Regards, Grant
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I have never been asked for "work samples." I seriously doubt they are even asking for examples of work done at previous companies. That would be insane (releasing another companies IP?!).
Usually they go by the interview and stuff like that.
They probably are asking for code samples that you have written outside of work. If you haven't written any... well, write some! Especially if you're not working anyway, you have plenty of time available, no? Consider it part of the job searching process.
Still seems a little bizarre to even be asked for code sample in the first place though. I have to think that this only happened at one specific company and now you think all companies are like that.
Speak nicely to your old boss and ask permission to show samples to your new prospective employer. Let old employer and new employer work out the legal details between them (and in the mean time they might both learn a thing or two about the ludicrous nature of "intellectual property" laws). The fact that you've shown the initiative might count for something, and also might demonstrate that your inablity to produce said evidence is not due to its non-existence, but rather beurocracy not of your making.
Stick Men
Plan A:
Assuming you still have the work you did saved somewhere acaccessible.
Put together some work samples that you believe present no possible harm to your previous employee, Do whatever you have to to make them safe (perhaps print them out, draw permanent marker over sensitive parts and scan them back in!)
Email/mail the samples to your previous supervisor, and write the same message you wrote to slashdot here, but more emotional. Say you want to run your work samples by her to make sure they're ok. (emphasize how careful you'll be not to let anyone keep them or make copies)
If he is reasonable then he'll ok, at least parts of your work samples.
If not go to plan B:
Plan B:
Write some new samples! Spend up to a week writing a quick application that highlights your skills. It's time well spent and shows an employer that you program on your own time, and that you're self-motivated.
Keep up all updated, we're all wishing you the best of luck!
when I was laid off, I signed another agreement stating I wasn't taking anything with me that belonged to the company.
You are in a difficult position, my sympathies.
Why did you sign? Did they offer a greater severance if you signed? You have no reason to sign or agree to anything new when you're being terminated unless there is a benefit to you. You've already lost your job...
But even if you didn't sign, that wouldn't help much, since you're still covered by the orignal NDA.
You might show a copy of the old NDA to the new company and explain that's why you can't show them examples. Or ask the old company to allow you to show the new company a few things.
As easy as that. There are enough open-source databases, nothing stops you from setting up a simple example application.
Don't fall for this obvious ploy. This is like the rule "never marry your mistress."
...But I digress. TREMBLE PUNY HUMANS!ONE DAY MY SPECIES WILL DESTROY YOU ALL!
C'mon, people, just because you signed an NDA
doesn't mean you can't get a variation agree-
ment for a small, useful bit of code that you
are proud of...
I'd make it a habit of getting such an agree-
ment (ie, variation) as early as possible, eg
even during the signing of the NDA itself.
Why not try adding a write-in clause (do it a
bit professionally, eg, by sticking-on a pre-
printed label, maybe) that says something like:
"... small work sample(s) may be shown,
but not left in the possession of other
organisation(s), exclusively when inter-
viewing for other positions.
Such samples will not include 's
trade secrets, etc."
You lawyer should be able to help you with
the details...
I've gotten several employees to use _my_ code, while making sure beforehand to establish that while they can do what they want with it, so can I. Kind of a simplified version of the LGPL, under which I license the code.
Of course, I haven't worked for jerks, at least in this regard, that there was never a problem over it. The license is clearly stated and the code (or at least a really old version... gotta update that) is available on Sourceforge.
You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
If you design websites, demonstrate some savvy and leave your "author" name all over the website of your last employments.
If it is an application that the prospective employer have, demonstrate your name by asking them to pull down a "Help->About" menu and show off your names, even if you put an easter egg in that menu (to get around your last boss's stingyness.)
Good luck...
While in school for electrical engineering the professors covered the issues of patents, and what they taught was to do what you're going to do and don't worry about the lawsuits.
The only risk point I see here is the new employer finding out that you violated an NDA. Most employer NDA's are enforced with termination, which has already happened to you.
do the work at home and bring it to your new job. make sure it's released under some sort of OSS license and use it at your new job. when you get fired again at your new job you can take it to the next job and the next job.
Get paid to code OSS
Show them work you did at your former job, NDA be damned.
NDAs are there so companies feel comfy and secure - don't let it impede your quest for a better job. Your company doesn't want to sue you, and they have nothing to gain by doing it, even if they know you're doing this. Now if you're giving up company secrets, that might be something else, but a straightforward work example isn't going to hurt them and isn't going to be worth their time to care about.
Any company that wants to see work samples probably isn't one that you want to work for. A good company will interview you to see if you know your stuff so it doesn't matter if you have a sample. If they're relying on samples then the people you'll be working with/for are probably just smart enough to have downloaded some stuff off the Internet for their interview and learned enough to answer a few questions. These are people that I would not want to work with. You also have to consider that if the interviewer isn't comfortable asking you coding questions then they probably aren't solid coders themselves. Either way, I'd avoid places that ask you for code.
If you don't want crime to pay, let the government run it.
Usually when a company asks for samples of what your done they don't so much care about specific implementations. I know when I look at code submitted by a possible member of my development group I'm usually just looking for style and some proof the guy actually knows what he says he knows.
It also doesn't hurt to tell somebody that you signed an NDA and as a result feel like you can't show them any specific code from your previous job. They should respect that as they would probably require you to sign the same agreement if you were leaving there company....
...I would request that they give you a programming challenge. Maybe some application that could be written in a day or two. Even if this company decides not to hire you, you'll have some sample code for the next company you apply at.
Or you could ask them if they have some code laying around that you could work with, you could then spend a little time improving or adding to a project that they are working on, there's nothing like actually demonstrating your usefulness.
Those who know, do not speak. Those who speak, do not know. ~Lao Tzu
The guy I use charges $150/hour. Reviewing a standard NDA takes about ... 1 hour. As a result, I've avoided signing things that would make a paper smeared with pig feces more attractive.
Before you sign anything consult a lawyer
Think about how much money you could potentially lose because you can't show your potential future employer any samples. Is that work 150 bones?
So.
Before you sign anything consult a lawyer
Yeah, right.
So they laid you off, and asked you to sign another agreement, and you agreed?
WTF?! You allowed them to damage your resume and job search for no reason. Too many people are allowing corporations to control them by contracts. If you are out of school, dont sign your future away, they will let you go when times get tough, look after yourself first.
Sheesh, maybe after everyone realizes that 100 hour weeks, no vacation, and NDA's are not worth after you are laid off and alone.
I, too, have been wrestling with this situation. I am being paid by my current employer to write complex software, but should I wish to leave, I want to be able to showcase the work I do to others.
Enter Open Source (Select "Redundent" now...)!
I started about a year back by just subscribing to the devel lists of about 15-20 different open-source apps that I used regularly (and a few that I didn't... but that interested me).
My initial motivation was "Lets get my name somewhere on the 'credits' list and then I can add that to my resume", but that wore off quickly. I discovered that there was an incredible number of people who were far more capable at writing code than I was. So I took the opportunity to learn from them.
Books, college classes, on-the-job learning and experience are all thrown away...if you find a good complicated project dealing in programming languages you don't understand and concepts you haven't explored, you'll eat it right up and it will have a ripple effect throughout your entire skillset (no matter how unrelated the project may be to your current work).
So my advice (and point): Find some projects that are appealing to you, subscribe and read the devel mailing lists: you'll benefit. Even if you don't get the opportunity to "showcase your work", you'll become far better at your trade... and that might be obvious enough to an interviewer to make providing examples of your work irrelevant.
"God is dead!" - Nietzsche
"Nietzsche is dead!" - God
There was a similar discussion two weeks ago on Perl Monks: Code Samples and Previous Employers
(Although in that case, it was when an interviewer pushed him to violate his NDA)
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
when I was laid off, I signed another agreement stating I wasn't taking anything with me that belonged to the company.
Why'd you sign anything after they laid you off? What were they going to do if you didn't sign - let you go?
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If this continues I could have a ton of work I've done that I can't show anyone, so what can I do?
Judging from the other responses, option 2 seems the most likely best choice. I don't know though, because I chose option 5 (after failing at option 4).
I had worked long enough with a specific part of a project that I almost knew by heart, which I could just type in again to send. It was also something fairly complex and common that anyone in the same industry would recognize. The request didn't specify that it was a work sample from my previous work though, just a sample relevant to the position.
I guess you could change careers.
don't sign the NDA
geez, you want to have your cake AND eat it?
Go win the lottery and work from home.
If he hadn't have signed it, i'm sure theres the all too real possibility of his companies lawyers sueing him. And i'm sure for something ridiculous also, like loss of profits, and then end up signing the NDA anyway. I think its a matter of what gives less of a headache.
Obviously it's not a work sample from a previous job, but starting an Open Source project is a good way of accumulating demonstrable proof of your skills. It also teaches you some things about putting a software project together from start-to-finish, mainly that actual coding is a small piece of a big pie (documentation, packaging, web site, UI design, etc.), which will make you a more aware coder and diversify your experience/qualifications. If you can communicate this knowledge-gain0 successfully to a potential employer, you should have a stronger shot at getting a job than someone who's done nothing but straight-ahead coding (depending on the company of course, many actually do seek out lesser coders...).
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Company A doesn't give a fuck if you get another job, and company B doesn't give a fuck if Company A won't let you give them what they want.
My best advice to you is to say fuck the system. Oh, and stop voting Republican.
Terrorists can attack freedom, but only Congress can destroy it.
Yeah, because this sort of thing never happened before Bush was elected.
I've actually been in the same situation lately. I just finished a job where I was required to sign an NDA which is applicable until the release of the product. My job was finished a couple of months ago, but the product itself is still a ways off from release. Now that I've been interviewing for new work, I've ran into the same problem "what do you say when you can't say anything about your previous work". ... and here is some sample code", you can probably say something along the lines of "I worked on a project using technologies X, Y and Z, and developed algorithms or techniques related to fields A, B and C."
The conclusion I came too, after talking to my old boss (with whom I still get along, and hold no ill-will against for my position being eliminated). What it was decided was that although I cannot give exact details on what exactly I did, it's still fair game to talk about generalities of what I did. For example, although you probably can't tell an employer "I worked on project X and developed algorithm foo which works like
Of course, a lot of this depends on what exactly you were working on at your last job, if you were developing something neat using existing technologies, or expanding an existing field, then it's probably a lot easier than if you were developing something completely new.
Famous Last Words: "hmm...wikipedia says it's edible"
Let the new company sign an nda that they do not disclose you showed them the code.
Kind of: If you show the code to the old company they will kill (sue) me, but i will kill(sue) you for doing that.
And as said before, i think if you print some sheets with code they will get an idea what you write, but without context this is no real use to them.
Here's the California cite:
http://lawzilla.com/content/ca-emp-002.shtml
If they wanted you to sign something as you left the company, it seems to me that they didn't make you sign it when you were hired. You signed a standard NDA, but they didn't make you sign anything stating that whatever you produce is their sole property and you aren't allowed to keep a copy. How do I know this? Because if you had signed it at the start of the job, they wouldn't need you to sign it at the end. Once is enough.
It seems like their legal department goofed and tried to fix the problem. Now, I understand that what you produce at work belongs to your employer, but there is nothing keeping you from making a copy for your portfolio(As long as your copy didn't contain any valuable data). But you didn't HAVE to sign. They were letting you go, it doesn't make sense to sign anything once they let you go. Why cooperate with the people who layed you off? They can't sue you for not signing. In fact, you had them over the barrell. Until you signed that paper, you could have negotiated for a better severance package. Ultimately the judge in the case would have ruled in their favor, and maybe let you keep a copy. But you could have tied it up in the courts, and gotten a temporary injuction against them using the program. That thought alone would have made for a quick settlement.
Just a couple of thoughts:
1. Do not violate the NDA. Just not worth it. It might be evil and unreasonable, but if you violate it, then how does your prospective employer have any faith that you won't do that to them? Answer: they don't.
2. Write some code. Write it at home. Show that to prospective employers. I know that when I've interviewed folks for my employer, I always ask if they have any code samples that they've written outside of work that they would be able to show me. That way, I'm not asking them to break an NDA and they get a chance to show me some code.
3. You do have a website right? Put examples of your code or writing up on your site. Then just give the interviewer your URL. That's what I've done: "Check out simonpeter.com, everything on the site is mine, go wild!" I have articles, code and opinions up there. Feel free to judge me by my website.
Hope this helps,
Simon
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