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The Linux Modem Problem?
muonman asks: "There is a business in town which refurbishes old computers and distributes them to kids, roughly at cost. Part of this cost is a $5 license for Windows 98 (they do use OpenOffice, tho). I have outlined to them the benefits of migrating to Linux, but the showstopper is modems, which most of their customers require. They buy in bulk at $4 each, with unpredictable chipsets. I can find reliable(?) drivers for Smartlinks, but cant buy them for less than $6 each, and I hate to recommend the switch in suppliers without more info. I haven't had luck getting license info from linuxant for using Conexants. It seems there has been no activity on the linmodem front for some time. Any wisdom from the Slashdot crowd?"
LinModem?
The hip way to get your IP. No ads, ever.
... be sure to let the rest of the world know about the modems that don't work at the Linux Incompatibility List:
http://www.leenooks.com/
http://www.welton.it/davidw/
This is often possible for software when there's good public relations and/or a tax-writeoff.
Trusted Computing FAQ | Free Dawit Isaak!
This isn't a flaw in the open source development method - plenty of companies don't bother supporting old devices either (or old software for that matter).
Acting stupid isn't much fun when there's someone around who knows better
How can a license for Windows 98 be $5?
You can't get it for that price even at ebay. Something is not quite right about this one...
Pay the extra $2 and sleep easier?
For $2, it really isn't worth screwing around, IMHO. If your supplier can't supply hardware that works, tough luck for them...
smash.
I run: Windows, OS X, Linux, FreeBSD. Just because you have a hammer, doesn't mean everything is a nail.
Total Cost Delta:
+$2 modem
-$5 windows
-----------------
$3 profit
Why not just buy more expensive modems and save money at the same time.
badness 10000
I'm sure you have some numbers of the percent of these cheap modems fail. If the failure rate even in windows is high enough, the conversion to a better modem might be worth it financially as well. Run the numbers, you may be surprised.
Check out modem chipsets from Intel (or Ambient). Many of them have Linux drivers available from Intel for them (and they are less trouble than licensing from Conexant). No idea what kind of pricing you might be able to get on them. There are a lot of OEMs that put them on their cards.
I used up all my sick days, so I'm calling in dead.
You really can't argue this one? The argument you need is called math.
$5 OS + $4 modem = $9
$0 OS + $6 modem = $6
If they are concerned about unit prices - this is easy. IF they have other concerns about switching over the Linux due to support or application compatibility issues, then the cost of the modem is irrelevant anyways.
What you should do is write up a proposal that outlines how the switch from Windows to Linux will be relatively painless and will save $3 per machine. This will spark interest if your working with any kind of volume. The $2 dollar increase in modem will likly make no difference if you can show that a lowered pricetag.
So put that in your pipe and grep it
The last time I checked, most "software" (that is, lacking 95% of guts) modems relied on proprietary drivers. And to make it worse, the quality of those is abysmal -- I've been through modems from three different companies, and they all cause a lot of kernel oopses/panics/what not.
Thus, I was really, really happy doing this (slow link).
The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
contact the people at Free Geek -- all the machines they give away come with modems, and all the modems they get are scavenged from donated machines, so this is probably an issue that they have dealt with. they're also just a great organization. they can probably help with some of the other issues as well; they've been giving away refurbished linux machines to computer illiterate people for years now (a machine comes with a class on how to use a computer, and i think 18 months of tech support), so they've tackled a lot of these problems.
Probably a silly question, but you have checked http://www.linmodems.org/ haven't you?
A pril/001275.html
The main site is full of information to help identify and get working "windows" modems under Linux. The list still seems to be active. Before ADSL arrived in my corner of the world I was dependant on them to get connected via inbuilt modems. I can't fault the helpfulness of the people on the list.
It doesn't matter if the modem cards you're getting are unpredictable provided that you know that it's one of a small subset and you know how to get each one (or most of them) to work. When I was last looking at this (over a year ago - but I guess that the kit you're seeing isn't new) the most manufacturer that modems identified themselves as was Agere/Lucent, for which there are various drivers around.
Some modems will probably just never get Linux drivers - the 3com 3c556 and relatives are examples of that. See:
http://zurich.ai.mit.edu/pipermail/omnibook/2002-
Migration to Linux:
Costs differences:
+$2 per modem
-$5 per Windows licence
===== +
-$3
So Linux computers would be $3 cheaper, even with slightly more expensive modems.
I suffer from attention surplus disorder.
with a winmodem is related to my laptop. It has a lucent chipset. I'm not sure if this is helpful but I have no problem getting up to date binary packages of drivers for this modem. (Right now I run FC3 and the modem works- installed with an rpm package- I consider that pretty current).
Drivers are available at http://www.physcip.uni-stuttgart.de/heby/ltmodem/
Maybe these are just older modems and you can't buy them anymore-- but if this type of modem is still available maybe you can get them for cheaper.
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
Well the main reason there are major hardware and software compatability issues is because linux isn't popular enough to justify companies spending money writing linux drivers.
Its a circular problem.
This is an excellent example of why Linux is not being adopted by the masses.
Linux has the best hardware support for mass market machines of any non windows OS. And frankly, it has better out of the box support than windows.
The problem is not any more solvable than it already is, in other words, it isn't a technical problem. It's an economic one - MS can get away with developing almost no drivers because market pressure ensures that the drivers get written by hardware vendors.
Funny, how silent the Linux kiddies become when substantive discussion is afoot.
Silence is common amongst all fanboys when real problems are cited. But this is a troll. The problem is not substantially solvable.
The real question I have is, what are the advantages, in this case, of moving to Linux. Linux has become as strong as it has by being dedicated to practical solutions, not ideological ones. The best one I can see is that the licences for Windows are signifigantly higher than the $5 they are charging their customers. In that case a slight increase cost of hardware is acceptable.
Lucent modems are reasonably cheap, and the chipset has drivers (shipped with Linspire, back when it was Lindows). Also, Lucent is one of the better performing Winmodems (although my experience here is with the windows driver, so your milage may vary). If slight increases in hardware cost are acceptable, the Lucent driver is stable under Linux, and ships in serveral major distributions.
Last I checked Win95 was running $10-$15 on e-bay. I didn't check Win98 but I'd expect it to be more.
I'm asking because I'm doing something similar.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
I work at a place where people develop on Unix. Not exactly n00bs. Yet, we almost all use either OSX or Windows at home. Why? While Linux is better at some things (like being a server), trying to install desktop software only to go through dependency and obscure problem hell is something we don't like to spend our free time doing. Don't get me wrong, I love Linux and Unix. It's just not designed as a desktop OS, even redhat admits as much.
If the kid gets a computer with Linux, he'll prolly get someone to put Windows on it (which Daddy/Mommy knows how to use) or just buy another computer. It's much better for Free Software and for kids to put polished OSS on a Windows box (like Open Office, Firefox, and Gimp).
I really hope Linux will get there someday. It's just that today isn't that day, and by pushing a unready product to an audience, you give it a bad reputation.
-- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
Lucent is now known as agere, but it is a good recommendation. While driver for many major distros are available, they can also be compiled for a particular kernel.
http://www.heby.de/ltmodem
Just a Tuna in the Sea of Life
Even when using PCI hardware based internal modems (such as US Robotics/3-Com modems) it's a crapshoot. Just because a modem is listed as being Linux compatible is no guarantee. Getting online depends a lot on what distro you're using.
For example, on my Linux distro test box I have a 3CP5610 internal PCI modem. It works fine with Xandros, Lycoris, and Mandrake. Knoppix can detect the modem, and dials up to my ISP but cannot truly connect (although my KPPP settings are identical to the settings in Mandrake). Mepis cannot detect the modem, even though I tell it to use ttys4.
With the rise in broadband access, modem support is becoming less of an issue. But for those needing dial-up access, what distro you use can make or break your ability to get online.
When Linux can support ALL of my apps and hardware, I will accept it as a real OS.
When you get real apps and hardware, we'll accept you as a real person.
Are you seriously saying that in this day and age, you are actively and aggressively distributing Windows 98 to the general population and *deliberately* connecting these PC's to the internet?
I know it's important to be constructive on Slashdot so I will endeavour to be so. But I must say. What you are doing is sheer stupidity. Windows 98 is buggy. It's insecure. It's also unsupported. Microsoft don't like it, Microsoft don't patch it. It has known security holes that will never be patched because MS doesn't support the OS anymore.
When you couple this with an internet connection (even dial up), you are actively contributing to the overwhelming crisis of spam, malware, trojan and DDOS attacks. Perhaps you should save a little time and deliver the boxes directly to the virus writers to use as zombies?
Let me save you and the world a tremendous burden. If you have to go cheap, go free, use Linux. Don't make the problems of the world even worse than they are. At least Linux, even on old hardware, would be up to date, secure, and significantly more stable than Win9x.
I am government man, come from the government. The government has sent me. -- G.I.R.
Cool, I'm sure you are perfectly happy with your Windows ME.
FYI, Linux is more of a server OS, not your desktop variety like Windows, and many companies are replacing their high-end Unix boxes with Linux. The fact that folks like the original poster are considering it for client use, and that various governments are switching to Linux as apps such as Open Office etc have is impressive.
Yeah, but that was a nightmare with Windows too. In fact, I had an easier time getting modems to work under Linux than Windows (once I got rid of the WinModem joke).
Just because a modem is listed as being Linux compatible is no guarantee. Getting online depends a lot on what distro you're using.
For example, on my Linux distro test box I have a 3CP5610 internal PCI modem. It works fine with Xandros, Lycoris, and Mandrake. Knoppix can detect the modem, and dials up to my ISP but cannot truly connect (although my KPPP settings are identical to the settings in Mandrake). Mepis cannot detect the modem, even though I tell it to use ttys4.
Kudos, you got 3.5/5 working. Not bad.
But it sounds like more configuration issues though, i.e. in 4/5 of the OSs you use, you can at least access the modem. Seems that either the attributes or scripts are incorrect for the Mepis. Would you expect 5 different Windows versions all to work exactly as well with the same modem? Unlikely.
With the rise in broadband access, modem support is becoming less of an issue. But for those needing dial-up access, what distro you use can make or break your ability to get online.
Good point though.
Interestingly, another reason why Linux is ideal is it's support for older architectures. A friend gave me his ancient HP LaserJet III, I had no problems getting this running under Linux (Mandrake), even the bottom tray worked. Under Windows, this took several hours of searching for the drivers on the .net, then installing & uninstalling (usual windows disaster), & finally got it somewhat working (no bottom tray though). Probably it is not entirely MSFTs fault for not supporting the old driver (and I have the OS CDs), but the fact that HP wants to sell you a new printer.
RFTS:
"It seems there has been no activity on the linmodem front for some time."
--
make install -not war
I'm the de facto maintainer of the CLMD5620DT driver after the guy who wrote the driver disappeared (I just added an AT command parser, it used custom commands before).
:(
My advice : try to find actual, hardware modems somewhere. A real 33600 is better than a 56K winmodem.
In the particular case of the CLMD5620DT, it used to work sometimes with 2.2 kernels (the version I released, with AT commands, is 0.3.0-gg), I made a quick port to 2.4 (you may find it as version 0.4.0) and I have no idea if it works with 2.6 kernels. I don't even have the modem anymore
My website
I wish I had mod points since you'd definately be getting a -1 TROLL from me.
Basically your strategy is to call names, and repeat an old Linux bash. Your statement has virtually nothing to do with the post.
Last I checked Linux is being adopted by the masses. Many many more people are converting to Linux than are converting from Linux. Entire countries are basing their IT infrastructure on Linux. So I will argue that Linux IS being adopted ona large scale. Of course it could be a larger scale, but Rome empire was not built over night; nor did it fall in one night.
I'll also say hardware compatibility is a major problem for Windows, especially given the multiple version of it. The people getting the refurbed computers will likely have a difficult time adding any NEW current hardware upgrades to their system. Since Windows 98 is no longer supported by MS, driver suppoort is waning.
Even when it was the only game in town HW sipport (especially modems) was flakey at best. I would have to reboot after every time I used my scanner. Sometimes my sound card would lock up after conflicting with my scanner. Also, I worked ISP technical support and EDI technical support during Windows 95/98 heyday. I can confidently say that most modems did not work well out of the box with any old flavor of windows.
Besides endless conflicts with IRQs and port assignments, especially with the "plug and pray" of Windows 95/98, most modems needed arcane initializations strings that properly matched up to the particular brand of modems used in the ISP bank. It was a mess. and very very annoying from a support perspective, probably cut years off my life.
Hard/Software compatibility is mostly a non-issue in Linux anymore, aside from bleeding edge components. In this case I would be willing to bet that the modem support will be better for a modern Linux distro, than for a 7+ year old OS. I would venture to say a modern Linux distro will support more common hardware better than windows98, especially since USB support was in its infancy with 98.
You have clearly not spent any time with Linux, nor have you probably spent a lot of time trying to support any significant number of remote machines, dialup or otherwise. I have, and I will say that I would have left the tech industry a long time ago if I had to continue using MS operating systems and products.
Perhaps, your brain is big enough to remember all the exceptions, nuances, quirks within the convuluted and confusing dialaog box hell that makes up the Windows world. With each iteraction of MS product line getting more confusing and more complex. My brain isn't, so once I figure out a problem once, it becimes a simple shell script (kind of like your batch files) so that everythign can be repeated again and again.
Ok I'm getting a little off target here myself. My point is Linux is not a gimmick, and your comment is mean spirited FUD at best.
-MS2k
What are you, retarded or something?
www.hp.com
type in laserjet III
about 4 clicks later and I'm downloading drivers for a HP Laserjet III Printer
This question is unanswerable and based on the tacit assumption that Windows 98 will "just work" on these legacy machines.
Do these bulk modems come with Windows drivers? For $4? Do they work? What about all the other components of these refurbished computers?
Why don't you have your configuration person do a bake-off. Try MEPIS or some other user-friendly distro and see how many of these refurbished machines work (including modem) immediately, and how many require screwing around and/or installation of 3rd-party stuff. Ask the same question of Windows 98 on the same machine. While you're at it, measure installation/configuration time.
I'm not at all convinced of the premise - that Windows works on a larger proportion of these machines.
Windows doesn't support my G5 and it doesn't run any of my BeOS apps. I guess it's not a real OS. :(
When I was still in dial-up land (actually, that was no more than 2 weeks ago), I had 2 Linux boxen - one Mandrake and one Gentoo. In terms of internal modems, I've had pretty good luck with the HSP cheapo internal modems. The Intel HAM modems also have Linux drivers (albeit limited to certain kernel revisions). Both of these modems can be had for just a few dollars online.
Or the surefire way is to get an external modem. Connecting to the serial port will surely work with anything - and without drivers of any kind. I have been using my external and it's never let me know. I was able to get one for a little over $10 online.
There are a huge number of yeast infections in this county. Probably because we're downriver from the bread factory.
Agreed. Simple job of compiling and installing modem with 'make' and 'make install'. I bought a modem with this chipset for £5.00 including p&p off eBay. Also the gkdial package "apt-get gkdial" is a very nice easy to use dialer for newbies. Michael
I like /.ers with relevant signatures. Too bad you are beyond the first part of it.
Fascinating: Express a perceptions of the real world and get modded "Troll." Express an observation derived from real-world experience and get labeled "ignorant."
Strange, indeed. Approximately a quarter of a million people think my opinions have merit. Perhaps they are ignorant, too.
Ignorance is curable, stupid is forever.
i had the same problem, then i payed the extra $8/month and got dsl.
I am new to Linux and just tried to fix a friend's rotten Win98 install. I read that winmodems were a problem and my friend had one, so I bought an external serial port modem.
I tried:
1. VectorLinux - no joy connecting to the internet.
2. I upgraded the RAM, and tried Knoppix - still nothing.
3. I tried Windows 2000. No joy, but at least it reported the serial modem as being faulty.
4. I tried Knoppix, with the Linunxant drivers for the winmodem. STILL no joy.
5. I tried Windows XP. Everything worked perfectly first time.
It's a real pity as old computers needing a replacement for Windows 98 are a real opportunity for Linux.
The grandparent was talking about package managers I think - the average person would probably never see the command line let alone compile software. What they would see would be YaST or Synaptic which handles things for the user.
Maybe you should find someone as knowledgable as you are, maybe a friend with a CLMD5620DT-based modem, and transfer your maintaining duties to him?>
We'd need someone MUCH MORE knowledgeable than I am... I'm just the guy who added AT commands, I don't really know how the rest of the driver works! So if any Slashdot reader wants to take over the maintainership of the driver, feel free to contact me!
My website
The real solution is, of course, to use external RS232 modems.
OK, let me be the first person to point out that this guy has nothing to do with the business in question. Indeed, he is just some random kook trying to provide unsolicited advice to people with whom he otherwise has no realtionship. Even if someone were to suggest a brilliant argument on his behalf it will be ignored by the people in question, of course, since they have no problems and are likely disinterested in dealing with a bunch of unforseen technical issues simply because the local village idiot objects to the Windows licensing.
The problrm id not Linux here but Hw producers not willing to create linnux drivers or release good documentation to let the community to develop a driver for the hardware.
I've got a Netcomm 56k internal based on the Lucent Mars chipset. Contrary to the amount of flak I've heard levelled at the hardware, the drivers from here work solidly in my experience, with both 2.4 and 2.6 series kernels.
However, not all winmodems are created equal. I'm not entirely sure about this, but I believe it depends on whether or not the winmodem in question actually DOES have a controller chip and just needs proprietary drivers, as opposed to a true controllerless modem. From what I've read, the Lucent AMR modems are genuinely controllerless and thus not supported under Linux.
In a nutshell, because the term "winmodem" is a catchment word and actually describes quite a large number of different devices, you need to make sure you have reasonably intimate knowledge of which specific breed of winmodem you've got. Some will work, some won't...but again, in my experience anyway with my own chipset, both the 2.4 and 2.6 Lucent modules work well.
Of course, a standard hardware modem is always more desirable if you can get one...particularly seeing as the Lucent modules taint the kernel, which may be a problem for some people. (it doesn't particularly bother me) The advantages of winmodems however are price, greater level of availability these days from what I've seen, and marginally better throughput than their standard cousins in some instances. I'm hoping to eventually save up for a standard/external one of these days, and as I said they are more desirable if you can find/afford it...but I'm at least surviving on my Lucent right now.
Can you run the Win32 Winmodem driver with Wine on Linux?
I go out of my way to complicate the simple things, so that I can simplify the complicated things.
Maybe Intel would give them to you.
It is worth asking.
The big problem is how to get hooked up to the Internet. A lot of the big ISPs seem to be going to strange custom dialers and such.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
Also, I have gotten into livecd distro's lately, and have had to remaster to get WvDial in, so I could connect with some of my modems. I do use a cable modem also, but that takes all of the fun out of it. Nothing to configure.
Rapidweather's Linux Screenshots.
Linux *can* support all of your apps and hardware. It's incompetent support or apathy from your vendors that you should be placing the blame upon, not any technical deficiency of Linux (unless you can actually point one out).
LRC, the best-read libertarian site on the web
Just to say: They SUCK....
Heard of mldonkey? eDonkey, Kazaa, Gnutella, BitTorrent, Napster, and Direct Connect, all in the one app.
What does Napster have to do with P2P? It's a DRM music store. Does mplayer even support DRM'd Windows Media Audio files?
No snood, aim, kazaa
They have Frozen Bubble (a clone of the same game that Snood copied), Gaim, and mldonkey. A lot of the other simple games will run fine on wine.
Will these kids wanna spend 4 years learning how to use it all properly and not get r00ted in the mean time?
If iptables is set to take no incoming connections except on those specific ports that the IM and P2P apps use, then how will they get r00ted?