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RIAA File-Sharing Lawsuits Top 10,000 People Sued
An anonymous reader writes "While Firefox broke the 50,000,000 barrier today, the RIAA broke a more
dubious barrier this week: It has now sued over
10,000 file sharers for copyright infringement, making it a good time to ask
if the RIAA will ever throw in the towel. Taking an academic look at
what's best for the industry, this
economics article shows the financial upside to P2P file sharing. And
on the flip side, this
legal article argues that file swappers have a constitutional right to pay
much smaller penalties than the millions of dollars they can be liable for under
copyright law, making the RIAA's lawsuits much less profitable."
Doesn't your corner only throw in the towel if you're getting your ass kicked? From what I understand, the RIAA is settling nearly each of these cases out of court for a substantial profit. If that's the case, why would they ever throw in the towel?
I'm generally "Interesting," "Insightful," and even "Funny" here. What the hell happens to me at parties?
The RIAA will never quit suing P2P users because the RIAA is making a profit from it...
... and in the DRM, bind them.
I am under the impression emule is safe. Anyone heard otherwise? Any other p2p networks I should know about?
Either the RIAA throws in the towel, or advances in anonymous secure filesharing make their efforts redundant - there are already several very promising and useable systems in development.
Either way, the RIAA can't keep up forever.
Curiosity was framed. Ignorance killed the cat.
i fit home systems for a large PC company and the first thing customers ask me when i have installed their broadband and PC is
"where can i download MP3s ?"
"illegal or legal ?"
"i dont care"
The day they are out of business, or they have managed to have every customer jailed. Remeber this is their new long term business model.
However, as time goes on the effects will diminish and they will look even more foolish.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
You fund these lawsuits every time you buy a CD. Then they sue you, you settle and they sue even more people. Solution: stop buying CDs.
The RIAA will never quit suing P2P users because the RIAA is making a profit from it...
How right you are! Imagine, 10k lawsuits. Let's assume that each one of them settles for an average of $5k (a pittance compared to what they could get by copyright law, and I believe many of these settlements are much higher).
At $5k a pop, 10k of these settlements is worth $50,000,000 dollars.
How long will it be before the profits from lawsuits exceeds that of music licensing for the RIAA? Is it really that far fetched to imagine? Settlements are better business than records ($5k vs. $9)...
Perhaps, like antivirus companies spinning virus out into the wild, the RIAA will begin quietly sponsoring P2P programming efforts in an attempt to expand their new market (defendants)...
These are strange times...
The reason that it can be true that 1+1 > 2 is that very peculiar nonzero value of the + operator
1) Start a band (Alternatively: illegally download some techno making software)
2) Release some songs on p2p networks
3) Wait for it...
4) Wait for it...
5) Sue 10,037 people for a profit. ("...the RIAA's probably collected over $30 million from individual file sharers.")
Absolutely perfect. I see no flaws.
.... only after people stop settling outside of court and ask for jury trials.
-Palal
Now I know that many people enjoy music as a form of entertainment. However, consider also what the politics behind this entertainment are. What kind of companies are you supporting by listening to / buying this music?
When the RIAA started these lawsuits a few years back (what was it? 1999? 2001?), I was shocked and outraged. I couldn't believe what lengths these corporations would go to in prosecuting what amounts to a few cents' worth of theft per song. The defendants, while they did execute illegal act(s), are being punished far beyond the damages they caused.
What can one do, then? I decided to stop buying music CDs. I no longer listen to the radio, and hardly ever download music from p2p. I believe that since these lawsuits started several years ago, I have bought a total of about 3 CDs. Instead, I spend my time with more productive activities such as programming or spending time with my wife.
I know this isn't an option for many people, but it works for me. By refusing to purchase CDs, I vote against the RIAA with my wallet. By not listening to the radio, I don't support the stations that license the same music. You, as a reader of slashdot, might do well to try to find something like this to voice your disapproval. Heavy-handed tactics used as a business model = lost customers.
Ads? What ads?
The solution is for people to stop buying CDs and listening to music created by members of the RIAA. Until you stop doing this the "problem", as you put it, will continue.
Can anyone actually comment on the legality of downloading what you already "own" in another format?
I am a fairly old fart and mostly I have downloaded music that I have already paid for, mostly old vinyl records and some that I have on video
Just what are the legals of this situation in the USA? What are the legals elsewhere, europe & Australia?
The memories of a man in his old age are the deeds of a man in his prime - Floyd, Pink
...making it a good time to ask if the RIAA will ever throw in the towel.
Shoot! It's hard enough to fight a behemoth conglomerate like the RIAA without it having the most useful thing in the universe on hand.
the referenced legal paper says:
Abstract:
When a minimum statutory damage award has a large punitive component, the danger arises that the award's punitive effect, when aggregated across many similar acts, will become so tremendous that it imposes a penalty grossly excessive in relation to any legitimate interest in punishment or deterrence.
i believe this means the RIAA is suing for ridiuclous large sums of money, hundreds of thousands of dollars for each mp3, even though in actuality the damages to the RIAA is much much smaller than what they're sueing for. a similar type of incident occured before in a court case:
BMW of North America, Inc. v. Gore, where the Court held unconstitutional a jury's punitive damage award of two million dollars to a plaintiff who suffered four thousand dollars in actual damages from the defendant's deceptive trade practices.
the author of the legal document is simply making an argument that the ruling of the BMW v Gore case should also apply to this case. the actual damages to the RIAA are a closer to a few dollars per song rather than the hundreds of thousands they're suing for. it will be very interesting if anyone being sued actually takes this kind of approach.
-mr silver
WE come up with a business model that THEY can live with (from/via/off of/.../whatever.)
They're in the business of sueing people until they don't have a reason to do so anymore. That's what they've been doing since the nineteenth century and before.
Every advance from the piano roll to the MP3 has been met with the kind of dogged, to the death, resistance normally encountered in a Pit Bull arena.
When you're stealing other people's creativity and have none of your own, you defend your right to be a parasite with legal anti-piperazine.
Of course, every now and they they go too far and get their wrists slapped, like the last time they were convicted of price fixing in California.
They emptied they warehouses filled with every piece of back catalog crap that time. "We ripped you off. Have this audio dog, uh, wonderful vynil recording of "Milton Freebish sings 'Sony and Cher'" album to make up for it."
You want's to get them to cease and desist, you have to figure out a way that they can keep on collecting money for other people work every second of every day.
That's when they'll shut up. Not before. They're thieves egardless of how they justify it. And YOU are going to have to find them a new pocket to live in.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
Granted that copyright infringement is against the law and should be pursued more by the government like other crimes that the government has established, I wish the government would rerecognise their belief in a free economy and that no company has any right to profit nor compensation for loss of profit.
I don't do MP3, so I'm free of this, but the core here is not copyright infringement, but rather the price of distribution of a product. This is pretty much exclusively what the RIAA companies make money on. The sale of an aluminum disc impregnated in plastic. However, these guys are getting their music in an inferior format with a different distribution channel at a much lower cost of distribution.
Am I missing something, or is this how supply and demand works? I pay 80+ dollars a month for cable and about 40 for broadband internet that satisfies a good deal of my music concerns. I just paid almost $2,000 for my car stereo in my new car and I buy blank CDs in bulk. In the past week I spent about $150 in concert tickets.
What the fuck else do these people want from me? Its getting to the point that it almost appears more productive to simply go to prison or jail the rest of ones life, but even then your subject to chronic searches and whatnot to make sure your not doing what your "supposed" to do while there.
In summary, fuck you RIAA. Provide at some bare minimum a competing product to p2p downloads, or just go away. Music has lasted before you, and will outlast you. Your relationship with the music industry is entirely up to you. So long as you are providing a valuable product to consumers, you will exist. So long as you sue your customers, your annoying.
When I'm not selling drugs or mugging people, I am donwloading err STEALING mp3s. but seriously how does this affect you? I am a musician, I've got an album out now! Do I encourage downloading my bands songs? YES! then more people would PAY to get into venues where my band is playing. If most bands weren't lazy they could make money off of playing live shows. Ever seen Forbes magazine? Each year who do you think the wealthiest musicians are? THE ONES WHO ARE TOURING! I've never seen someone make that list just off of CD sales...You insensitive Clod!
I'd bet that the economics of P2P depend on the "popularity" of the artist. P2P file copying probably helps obscure artists because it helps listeners overcome the cost and risk barier of buying an unknown artist. But file copying probably hurts more popular artists when people download must-have (but don't neccessarily want ot pay-for) manufactured hits by a known artist. P2P fragments the listening population by connecting them with more artists. In theory, the total outcome can be better as P2P file copying expands people's interests and helps them find music they consider worth paying for.
On the other hand, RIAA, I'll wager, is more concerned with preserving blockbuster artists than in promoting obscure ones. It's easier (and more ego-boosting) to ride the back of a Britney Spears than it is to promote a thousand no-name bands. Moreover, its more cost-efficient for music distributors to sell 10 million copies of one album than hassle with selling 15,000 copies of a 1000 artists. Even in a digital age, creating a distribution relationship with 1000 artists is harder (and less sexy) than having a single relationship with a megastar .
Fragmentation of people's musical interests is not in RIAA's best interests even if it expands the total music industry by more effectgively matching content creators to content consumers.
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
How many of the suits have gone to court, rather than being extorted... urr... "settled" out of court?
Of those that weren't settled out of court, how many are slated to go to trial?
Of those that have gone to trial, what are the results of the trail? How many traders were found guilty? What evidence has the RIAA presented thus far?
THAT is the information I'm more interested in. They can sue as many people as they want. I want to know what the results of those suits are.
UTF-8: There and Back Again
Look on the bright side. Firefox is 5000 times more successful than RIAA.
badness 10000
Just stop buying RIAA CDs. There are people outside the RIAA memebers that make music, good music. A good one is cdbaby.com, they are all indy, all the time. They deal directly with artists. They categorize and recommend music and there's lots that's quite good. Another place to check out is cdroots.com. They don't do the indy thing per se, but they are all about world music, and most of their stuff comes from outside the US and is rarely big label things. If you are looking for something different, it's a great place to go.
You don't need to stop listening to music, it's a wonderful thing to do, and many people find it helps them focus and be more productive. You just need to find it from sources not affiliateed with the RIAA cartel. While that's not as easy as walking to Best Buy, it's not very hard.
Perhaps I am repeating myself or someone else, but the point is not what is done with digital content, the point is what the laws are doing. Currently, they are reinforcing an outdated and unworkable distribution business model for the film and music industry.
The lure of being in those industries is the money that can be made... now there is a cultural revolution against that business model. The time is right for revolution...so to speak.
We keep talking about what is right and what is wrong, but we seem to skip over the facts. The facts simply stated, are that the law supports an outdated business model. The music and film industries cannot continue to force their ethics on the populace when the populace is revolting. Music and video content is simply not worth what is being charged. The current distribution and licensing practices DO NOT work in the information age. They used to work, but no longer. When anyone with a basement and some cheap electronic technology can duplicate what big industry is charging huge dollars for is common place as it is today, the old business models don't work.
Its time for the music and movie industry to get into the 20th century (yes, I said that right). Its time for them to get with reality. Sure, they deserve to be paid for their work, just like the rest of us, but like the airline industry, they do not deserve to be propped up by government so they can survive. If they cannot survive the changes on their own, so be it. Its time for a change, the old ways are not working.
Still, I have not seen or read any evidence that file sharing has damaged either industry, yet they seem to have the government's permission to harm anyone they feel like. This smacks of conspiracy and business based totalitarianism.
Sure, you can tell me that I'm wrong, that I have not respected the rights of these industries, but I have done something that you did not expect.... I have stated that its time for evolution or revolution. I don't particularly care if they go broke... there are literally millions of artists that want a cheap and easy way to get their art to the masses without having to deal with those big companies and their bias.
Anyone that thinks this is about the law is just kidding themselves... this is about evolution. It is time for thing to change. I'm tired of paying taxes just in case I decide to break a law, I'm tired of being thought to break the law before I actually do, I'm tired of people trying to enact law to prevent me from breaking other exisiting laws.
If business finds that the current laws are unenforcable, they need to look at what they are doing and how they are making their money. Small businesses have to weigh the value of persuing a patent infringement case against larger companies and individuals against what is good for the business. The music and video industries have SO MUCH MONEY that they don't have to worry about it... they just bring the litigation because the cost is a pittance against what they stand to gain. The patent and copyright laws have, in essence, broken the anti-trust laws, in order to protect the very rich and powerful, those that don't need protection.
They have successfully perverted the intent and design of the laws they use to protect their profits.
IT IS TIME FOR A CHANGE... EVOLUTION OR REVOLUTION
YMMV
Support NYCountryLawyer RIAA vs People
"making the RIAA's lawsuits much less profitable."
The RIAA is currently settling for $1/song + legal fees. The lawsuits aren't a revenue stream, and sharers are almost all paying under $5000. $1500 (average sued sharer shares 1500 songs, other costs are for legal fees) * 10,000 = $15 million. For a multibillion dollar industry, this is nothing.
The disparity between the offered settlement and the potential liability could easily constitute a coercement of the violators to choose the settlement, and I hope that this point comes to light (is there really a choice to take a lawsuit? If the RIAA wins, then the liability is too huge. Paying a few grand and getting out is almost always the better choice). The sued party is pretty much being denied the right to a trial because the liability is too high. The right judge could illuminate this point and really change the law for the better (said by someone who generally condemns judicial activism)
One defense is to say you didn't do it, and their proof iks too weak to meat even the burden in civil court. Basically they come in with a list of files that the company they hire to find them claims came off a computer with a certian IP address that your ISP said was yours.
/. story) that establish the illegitimacy of excessive statutory rewards in civil cases.
Ok problems:
1) How do you know those files are what they say they are? There's plenty fo files with fake names on filesharing networks. Sometimes it's people being assholes, sometimes it's small bands trying to pimp their shit, sometimes it's people who mislabeled because they are dumb. Since they don't download and check there's no real way to know.
2) For that matter, how do you know that list came form the right computer? Some networks, like Kazaa, aren't all that good at returning the correct list of files. You ask them for a list of files on host X, you get a list from host Y. How do you know this list is actually from the correct computer?
3) For that matter, how do we know the company they pay isn't making it up? These people get money for finding this stuff, there's incentive to find bigger lists of files. How do you know they are adding to those list or in some other way pumping it up to get more cash?
4) How do you know the ISP gave you the right data for the IP? Espically with dynamic IPs, this can be hard to tell. Sure some geek says this is what it is but how do you know he's telling the truth? All you've got are some easily altered text logs. For that matter how do you know the logging software was working right?
5) How do you know it was a certian computer behind that IP? Given the prevelance of wireless APs, it's easy to see that someone might ahve been using a connection without the owner's knowledge or consent. Where's the proof that it was actually a computer owned by that person that did it?
Basically what they are saying is these guys we pay gave us a list that might or might not be truthful that might or might not have come from this IP that might or might not belong to this person that might or might not have been them using it. Ya, THAT'S a strong chain of evidence.
Another defence would be to try for jury nullification, or argue on appeal, that the law they are suing under is unconstutional. The statutory damage are absurdly high. Well the constution states in ammendment 8 that "nor excessive fines imposed,". Seems the law allowing for high statutory damages in in violation of this. Since all laws must conform to the constution, it should be thrown out (and thus the case dropped).
Along those lines, there's other legal case history (as cited in the
This is not at all an open and shut issue. We do not have some highly trained computer crimes police optaining incontrevertable proof of MP3s on the person's computer and then the justice system imposing a resonable penalty. We have a corperate instrest group, who's members have been multiple times convicted of illegal practices such as price fixing, presenting a very shaky chain of evidence and asking for outrageously excessive awards.
If it got fought in court, it is not at all certian the RIAA would win.
What do the RIAA *really* have to benefit from all of this, aside from a huge profit? Intimidation. They obviously know that half of their cases wouldn't stand up in court anyway (oh wait a minute, I forgot they had huge pockets and huge teams of lawyers), so they take the horrible way out (for us) and demand huge settlements.
From what I've seen the RIAA will never throw in the towel unless legislation is brought up to impede on their "progress." As long as they can make a huge profit, they'll continue.
This is why I'm writing to both of my state's senators on why they should impose legislation to prevent the RIAA from taking all of this action. There's a better way to prevent piracy instead of suing dead 83 year-old people.
Debugging? Klingons do not debug. Bugs are good for building character in the user.
*gt;> You fund these lawsuits every time you buy a CD. Then they sue you, you settle and they sue even more people. Solution: stop buying CDs.
I have no clue what the situtation is like here in Canada, but it is not as bad as the states.
Actually, it's worse in Canada. In Canada you fund them every time you buy a hard drive, a blank CD-ROM or any one of a number of objects that don't directly infringe on their rights but could conceivably be used to. Don't feel bad though, the Netherlands followed Canada's stunning lead this week - so at least you're not alone.
Now there's the ridiculous situation that, should everyone decide to protest the music industry and stop buying CDs, the music industry would, ironically, be even better off (they'd continue to collect royalties on every drive sold and have absolutely zero production cost). Sure, the staff would get laid off, no bands would get signed, but the share holders would continue to collect their royalties from drive sales in exchange for no expenditure whatsoever.
Worse, it gets better and better for them as time goes by. That the Netherlands where they charge X euros per gig of storage. A 60gb iPod will be taxed by about $250. That's painful right now. Now consider good old Moore's law (arguments about disc storage vs processors etc. aside). In another dozen years, we'll have ~2^8 times the capacity for the same price. Unless the ridiculous laws get reassessed, 256 * $250 implies a $64,000 tax on that 15 terrabyte drive that the nicer models come with. Now I know inflation's bad but I don't think it's quite bad enough to have $60,000+ iPods within a decade or so. Sounds like some politicians have no concept of how computing advances and they've signed in to being a law that'll be farcical within ten years.
Assume for a moment that CD prices have remained largely constant ($10-15 new) ever since they came out. If that remains the case, simply buying an iPod within a decade (or similar drive for your PC) will give the music industry the equivalent of your buying 4,000 albums. By that point, do you really think they'll care about a CD boycot?
Disclaimer: Yes, I know those numbers are unsustainable. That's kind of the point - illustrating how staggeringly short sighted most of the music industry protecting laws are. The one redeeming thing is that those taxes will get so stupid that the idiots who signed them in will be forced to reconsider them well within the decade.
Coincidentally, just today I attended a conference, where in a lecture, the Head of the Computer Crimes Departement said this kind of thing won't begin in this country in the near future. BSA just recently made a public threat to start going after P2P file-sharers, it also naggs this police department quite a bit with all kinds of requests and propositions, but the police keeps it real - if all file-sharers were prosecuted by criminal law, we'd have more criminals than law-abiding citizens. Almost everyone who uses a computer, has downloaded some copyright-infringing stuff from Internet, but should every computer-owning individual be prosecuted? I think not, and so did the police officer giving the lecture today. They'd like to keep going after real criminals, not teenagers who downloaded the Spider-Man movie. They won't come after home users in the near future, unless they'd have too much free time - which they won't.
How about stop uploading copyright music illegally online for a solution? That would stop the lawsuits
How right you are! I have been advocating borrowing mp3 collections from friends borrowing cd's from the library and ripping them yourself. Much more reliable and the risk of a lawsuit is almost nil.
10000 suits * $3000.00 dollars settled/suit = 30 million dollars paid to the RIAA over 20 months or 1.5million/month.
;) ;) ;)
1. Get the millions of people pirating music to each pay $5 a month for RIAA Insurance.
2. Use that pot of money to pay the $3000.00 out-of-court settlement for each of your members that gets caught.
3. Get rich.
4. Sell your company to the RIAA to eliminate the middle man.
5. Your members pay $5 a month to the RIAA directly and they make a killing.
Firstly, 10k sued? I'm not sure if settling out of court counts as a lawsuit. You'd actually have to go to court.
This sensational language and the outright, blatant lies common in recent /. headlines are forcing me to call /. an overblown Internet tabloid, infested with a veritable hive of juveniles and self-absorbed laymen. But that's beside the point.
How about this: stop the rhetoric. Then join the EFF. Convert your BS to something much less so.
"Your honor, there was no way I could share anything; at that adress was only a smoking ruin of what was an email server."
Looks good for your age..
then more people would PAY to get into venues where my band is playing.
It's too bad that most bands shut out a lot of potential ticket buyers by playing in bars.
Each year who do you think the wealthiest musicians are? THE ONES WHO ARE TOURING! I've never seen someone make that list just off of CD sales
What does that say about musicians in genres not as conducive to live performance?
my mp3 file topped 10,000
Reality is all that stuff that doesn't care if you believe in it or not.--Solomon Short
..and no musician has been paid any damages.
A great day for the music industry.
When I grow up, I want to be a music industry lawyer!