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Red Hat/Apache Slower Than Windows Server 2003?

phantomfive writes "In a recent test by a company called Veritest, Windows 2003 web server performs up to 300% higher throughput than Red Hat Linux running with Apache. Veritest used webbench to do there testing. Since the test was commisioned by Microsoft, is this just more FUD from a company with a long history? Or are the results valid this time? The study can be found here."

113 of 628 comments (clear)

  1. Just like the samba benchmark by dtfinch · · Score: 5, Informative

    Looking at the first page of the benchmark report, I see that they're using the exact same setup as in their highly contested samba benchmark, with a specific ancient version of Red Hat running on a specific hardware setup that version is known to have performance problems on. They could have at least tried a different server last time, or a modern version of Linux. Under fairer circumstances, who knows, IIS might have still won, but this rigged benchmark has nothing to offer us in deciding which server is faster.

    1. Re:Just like the samba benchmark by PsychicX · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yeah...yeah...

      I just wish, just ONCE that somebody would do a fair evaluation, without an agenda to forward. But I guess that'll never happen. We all have bias...but surely we could at least attempt to get above that?

    2. Re:Just like the samba benchmark by cperciva · · Score: 5, Informative

      ...a specific ancient version of Red Hat

      This report was written in April 2003, according to the first page. They used the most recent version of RedHat available to them.

      This report may be two years out of date, but I can't see any signs of bias in its production.

    3. Re:Just like the samba benchmark by eric76 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Using the same logic, my old '64 International Harvester pickup could be shown to be faster than a Formula 1 race car.

      I have the ideal road for the test in mind.

      Now all I need is for someone to loan me a Formula 1 race car for the test.

    4. Re:Just like the samba benchmark by rokzy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      wrong, it does tell us which is faster - linux. if Windows was faster, why would they need to benchmark against a crippled system?

      sure there's a chance I'm wrong, but for me weighing the CHANCE of better performance from Windows against the CERTAINTY that they have lied about their product (or been completely incompetant) is a no-brainer.

      and that's not considering costs (remember guys, using linux always requires an old, slow mainframe to be factored into the TOC!)

    5. Re:Just like the samba benchmark by Coryoth · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Under fairer circumstances, who knows, IIS might have still won, but this rigged benchmark has nothing to offer us in deciding which server is faster.

      I've reached the point where I completely ignore all the studies and benchmarks like this, from both sides. It is, quite simply, far too easy to set the constraints and metrics up so as to make sure you come out ahead. What's worse, it has become absolutely standard practice to do so. Studies have become completely useless because you can guarantee that they've been cooked one way or another.

      Jedidiah.

    6. Re:Just like the samba benchmark by dtfinch · · Score: 5, Informative

      "we applied no additional patches and made no additional modifications to the Red Hat Linux Advanced Server 2.1 distribution used for these tests"

      I remember installing CentOS-3, based on RHEL3, on a server and having terribly slow disk performance with my raid adaptor. Running "yum update" to get the current patches yielded about a 10x speedup. Yet the Windows server gets a dozen or so undocumented registry tweaks.

      In the SSL comparison, they're using the fastest (though slightly less secure) choice of encryption algorithms in IIS and the slowest in Apache. They're comparing RC4+MD5 to 3DES+SHA1.

      And they decided to include ISAPI in the benchmarks without including the apache equivalent. All they test in apache is CGI. So again it's IIS's fastest option versus Apache's slowest option.

    7. Re:Just like the samba benchmark by Pinefresh · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, if you really want to know, you could probably do one. It couldn't be too hard to put a simple one togeather, and it would solve the question for you.

    8. Re:Just like the samba benchmark by spuzzzzzzz · · Score: 5, Informative

      In the past I have seen people post blatantly false things which get accepted as true just because the mods are too lazy to check. So I thought I'd chime in here with links to some evidence to back up parent.

      1) The algorithms used in SSL are listed on page 33 of the pdf linked to. Both linux setups use 3DES+SHA1 and windows uses RC4+MD5 (as parent said).

      2) This page (found via google) has a table comparing ciphers about 2/3 of the way down. RC4 appears to be about 2-3 times faster than 3DES.

      3) This email contains a comparison between MD5 and SHA1. MD5 appears to be 2.5 - 5 times faster than SHA1.

      --

      Don't you hate meta-sigs?
    9. Re:Just like the samba benchmark by darkain · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I personally run a windows based server (yes, hate me if you will, but i need some windows only tools at the moment). I used IIS for about 3 to 4 years, until I started to get heavy into PHP development, running a source control system, and game hosting. I switched from IIS to Apache because it had better support for virtualizing directories based off of conditions in easy to setup script files, which made it easy for me to run the UT2004 server, plus mod download server on the same box. This turned out to be a big hit at lan-parties, since the server had all of the packages, and would share directly from the server folders (but restricted the server's config files from anon access). I later switched to SVN for storing my programming projects, and its integration with Apache is great.

      I am a microsft OS user by nature. I switched to using Apache on my Windows server because of features it lacked, and now I'm never turning back.

      "I am Darkain... and I'm a coder"

    10. Re:Just like the samba benchmark by xiando · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I personally do not trust someone who claims to be "Veritest is an independent testing agnecy authorized by Microsoft to carry out the testing for applications developed on windows platform." to do a fair evalution of Linux vs Windows. If a company who makes a product gives you a huge pile of money at regular intervals and you are asked to compare that product to another product, who are you going to vote for? Who is your daddy? Sadly, money is everything.

    11. Re:Just like the samba benchmark by xiando · · Score: 3, Insightful

      First of all, performance is in many cases the main issue when buying a system. If you have a huge load then the choice may be between buying one well-performing system or two or three systems to take that load. And when you say "price is" I assume you mean the retail price, which is to me almost totally irrelevant (at least in the long run). The real price for any kind of software is the cost of teaching humans how to use it, costs related to maintaining it and most importantly, costs related to downtime and lost productivity if the software is slow. Performance DOES matter.

    12. Re:Just like the samba benchmark by MemoryDragon · · Score: 2, Informative

      No... for that date definitely not, but things have gotten much faster on the linux side since kernel 2.6

    13. Re:Just like the samba benchmark by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Speaking as someone who has quite some experience in cryptographic algorithms, I back up parent and grand parent. The benchmark is completely biased in that Veritest really ends up comparing 3DES+SHA1 with RC4+MD5. This unacceptable, I invite slashdoters to complain to Veritest:

      Veritest
      1001 Aviation Parkway, Suite 400
      Morrisville, NC 27560
      Tel 919-380-2800
      Fax 919-380-2899
      E-Mail: info@veritest.com
    14. Re:Just like the samba benchmark by zoefff · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Do it like this:
      -invite MS and RH (or other) for the contest, but ask what software versions to buy off the shelf and what to install. Install it yourself and have them tweak it with the configuration, without having extra's installed.
      -Let them agree between each other on as many things as possible: hardware, time to tweak, do's and don'ts, type of tests
      -Compile several benchmark tests: load, response time, static, dynamic. Ofcourse all on the same type of hardware platform.
      -Run the tests with them witnessing and report here!

      One note: Make sure to get the experts on both sides. At MS not a problem, but the linux arena is much bigger.

    15. Re:Just like the samba benchmark by iamacat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, I wouldn't use them for purchasing decisions, but this kind of studies are sure useful for pointing out weak spots in your favorite product. Time for Apache hackers get busy and fix such embarrassing performance scenarios.

      I don't think Apache is the right server for static pages and simple CGIs though. It has so many modules and settings that the code path from filesystem to socket has to be much longer than necessary and longer than the feature-limited competition. They should try a simple server like Boa.

    16. Re:Just like the samba benchmark by julesh · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I've actually seen this ridiculously unfair test before. The main thing that is wrong with it is that last access time gathering is switched off on the windows set up but not the Linux one. For web serving, which typically relies on large numbers of accesses to small files, last access time recording is a _severe_ performance drag.

    17. Re:Just like the samba benchmark by Joel+Carr · · Score: 3, Funny

      Now all I need is for someone to loan me a Formula 1 race car for the test.

      Well BAR Honda have a couple they won't be needing for a few weeks... Perhaps you should ask them. ;-)

      --
      Any man who can drive safely while kissing a pretty girl is simply not giving the kiss the attention it deserves. -- AE
    18. Re:Just like the samba benchmark by jrumney · · Score: 5, Informative
      This report was written in April 2003, according to the first page

      Strange, they have a press release on their website dated April 6, 2005 about the report being commissioned by Microsoft. Either Microsoft got ripped off by recycling an old report, or one of those dates is wrong.

    19. Re:Just like the samba benchmark by zobier · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What someone should do in these kind of tests is get an expert Windows team and an expert GNU/Linux team, identical servers and let them configure them as best as they can. That seems fair.

      --
      Me lost me cookie at the disco.
    20. Re:Just like the samba benchmark by cperciva · · Score: 2, Informative

      Strange, they have a press release on their website dated April 6, 2005 about the report being commissioned by Microsoft

      Different report. That press release talks about Windows Server 2003 vs. RHEL 3.0 -- Microsoft must have asked them to produce a newer version of the report /. linked.

    21. Re:Just like the samba benchmark by inode_buddha · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How is an "independent agency" "authorized"? I would *love* to see those NDA's.

      --
      C|N>K
    22. Re:Just like the samba benchmark by Jacco+de+Leeuw · · Score: 4, Informative
      One does not even have to be an expert in crypto. Simply type:

      openssl speed rc4 md5 des-ede3 sha1

      (Get OpenSSL here if you are using Windows). You will see that the first two algorithms are much faster, especially for larger blocks.

      I say this shootout is rigged.

      --
      -------
      Warning: Slashdot may contain traces of nuts.
    23. Re:Just like the samba benchmark by cofaboy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Don't forget that MS changed the EULA so that you are no longer allowed to benchmark windows and MS products without written permission. The only commercial people who can benchmark are those who will use a framework defined by MS.

      Any other options will mean no study and no money.

      He who pays the piper calls the tune.

      --
      In the end, It's all bovine dung you know
    24. Re:Just like the samba benchmark by tacocat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You don't have to load any of those modules if you don't want to. Thereby simplifying the code path...

      That's why they choose to make them modules rather than baking them into the application itself.

    25. Re:Just like the samba benchmark by Chris+Kamel · · Score: 2

      The parent just said "I see lots of biases", he never even cared to explain what some of these might be. How could that be informative!

      --
      The following statement is true
      The preceding statement is false
    26. Re:Just like the samba benchmark by Haydn+Fenton · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Slashdot, 7th of May 2005.

      • Linux: Red Hat/Apache Slower Than Windows Server 2003?
        Posted by Zonk on Saturday May 07, @06:20
        from the who-doesn't-love-some-delicious-fud dept.
        phantomfive writes "In a recent test by a company called Veritest, Windows 2003 web server performs up to 300% higher throughput than Red Hat Linux running with Apache. Veritest used webbench to do there testing. Since the test was commisioned by Microsoft, is this just more FUD from a company with a long history? Or are the results valid this time? The study can be found here."


      Slashdot, 11th of May 2005.

      • Microsoft: 2k3 Server vs RedHat\Apache
        Posted by Michael on Wednesday May 11, @09:01
        from the oops-they-did-it-again department.
        fooslashbardot writes "Well, it looks like the suits at Redmond have done it again with the test last week that stated Windows 2003 Server outperforms RedHat\Apache by 300%. We knew the test had been commissioned by Microsoft, and now a recent Wired article has arose which lays claims that Mr. Gates himself was seen slipping the people at Veritest wads of up to 10,000 hundred dollar bills shortly before the announcements were made. Gates has denied all such claims, and says that Balmer smells of Cheese."


      I've never used either, or know anything about Veritest, so I haven't a clue about whether the results are likely to be correct or not. But we all know Microsoft :P
    27. Re:Just like the samba benchmark by eno2001 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually what is needed is a public, non-profit benchmark competition. Both Windows and Linux enthusiasts are welcome to join in. Limit the contest to 100 teams of up to ten people. The 100 teams are all suprvised by the people who run the contest. The contest itself should make no money of any kind in order to keep away any monetary incentive. Hardware donations from the big players are acceptable with the understanding that the hardware will be returned after the compeition. In this way, the ugly little trait called "competition" gets in without any monetary incentive. At that point it's enthusiasts trying to outdo each other on both platforms. With this set up, you really get to test the performance of both OSes in a fair way because enthusiasts are likley to know all the tricks to get their OS and application to perform best. This means you'll likely see Windows outperforming a typical Windows system and Linux outperforming a typical RedHat/Mandrake/Debian/Gentoo/SuSE Linux system. Sounds like fun. SO who wants to get this party started? :)

      --
      -"...bad old ideas look confusingly fresh when they are packaged as technology" - Jaron Lanier (Digital Maoism on Edge.o
    28. Re:Just like the samba benchmark by Bobzibub · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I never understood why this is not illegal. Is preventing benchmarks not a restriction on trade?
      Imagine if the automobile industry did it?
      -b

    29. Re:Just like the samba benchmark by InvalidError · · Score: 4, Informative

      I do not see why people should be authorized to conduct reviews and benchmarks of publically available products.

      Surprisingly (controversially?) enough, some EULAs forbid public criticism - I wonder if such clauses would ever be found valid in court, I seriously hope not - judges should declare void in whole any EULA that includes any anticonstitutional demands.

      Now that I think about it, I seem to remember that M$ used to include a non-comparison clause in many of its products' EULAs, this "licensed comparison" tells me it probably still does.

    30. Re:Just like the samba benchmark by wintered · · Score: 2, Informative

      Thats because the slashdot post is stupidly pointing at the wrong article. The real one can be found here:
      http://www.veritest.com/clients/reports/microsoft/ microsoft_IT_Pro.pdf

    31. Re:Just like the samba benchmark by Billly+Gates · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually I remember this 2003 benchmark. I read here and the editors forgot about it.

      Anyway here is the trick. First off IIS used ASP which does not use a mod interface like cgi scripts which means the engine can run in IIS itself. This makes IIS very fast.

      We have the same thing as ASP in the FOSS world called PHP. Zend is fast because the engine also runs in the same space as apache.

      Or I have seen in older 1999 benchmarks that MS will just use a static html to show how fast there platform is and ignore dynamic content. Also MS used a patch that was not made public which bound the I/O of 4 nic card to 4 cpu's in order to make I/O overhead very low. I think it may be standard in Windows2003 but its dumb tricks like these no one uses in a production environment anyway

      But I do not trust any benchmark that has a "Migrate from Unix to Windows" link on the right side of the report. Nooo its not biased

      However someone can point to a benchmark by the Linux kernel team and taking it as a grain of truth that its faster then net or freebsd. Its a dual standard.

    32. Re:Just like the samba benchmark by rben · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Sadly, money is everything.

      Not so. If it were, there would be far less support for Open Source projects. Fortunately, as FOSS has demonstrated, large numbers of human beings are quite capable of being motivated by interesting problems and the knowledge that thier work will benefit everyone else.

      Be cynical if you like, but every day you use Linux or Open Office; every day you see a website served by Apache; know that it's because some people value contribution to society enough to donate their time and creative energies.

      --

      -All that is gold does not glitter - Tolkien
      www.ra

    33. Re:Just like the samba benchmark by Glonoinha · · Score: 3, Funny

      Just put up two professional servers, fill em with some nudie-pix and post the links to FARK at the same time. That's about the most intense benchmark known to man.

      --
      Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
    34. Re:Just like the samba benchmark by Jacco+de+Leeuw · · Score: 2, Informative
      In the SSL comparison, they're using the fastest (though slightly less secure) choice of encryption algorithms in IIS and the slowest in Apache. They're comparing RC4+MD5 to 3DES+SHA1.

      I found another flaw on that same page.

      VeriTest also write that Windows 2003 was using RSA key exchange and Red Hat was using Diffie-Hellman (DH).

      But DH is vulnerable to a Man-in-the-Middle attack so SSL uses RSA to perform the authentication.

      So Red Hat is doing RSA and DH, whereas Windows is doing only RSA!

      Using OpenSSL's ssltest program I noticed that DH+RSA was 50% slower than RSA:

      $ time ./ssltest -num 1000 -tls1 -cert server.pem -key server.key -c_cert client.pem -c_key client.key -cipher "RC4-MD5:@STRENGTH" -client_auth -server_auth -CAfile cacert.pem
      $ time ./ssltest -num 1000 -tls1 -cert server.pem -key server.key -c_cert client.pem -c_key client.key -cipher "EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA:@STRENGTH" -client_auth -server_auth -CAfile cacert.pem

      And I would not be surprised if Windows 2003 was using SSLv2 (faster and insecure) while Linux was using TLS1! Because that is another parameter that VeriTest is not disclosing.

      --
      -------
      Warning: Slashdot may contain traces of nuts.
  2. Three hundred percent? by PsychicX · · Score: 2, Insightful

    10%? 15%? Those are numbers I'd believe. But THREE HUNDRED PERCENT? I like Microsoft, and I like when somebody defends them. But this is just bull.

    1. Re:Three hundred percent? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The 300% faster figure was from a static file test. Since IIS 6 can serve static content from kernel mode, it can go much faster than Apache. TUX can also serve content from kernel mode, so IIS was only 160% faster than it with 8 CPUs. TUX didn't scale (4 CPUs was faster than 8), as IIS was only 12% faster with 1 CPU.

      Keep in mind this report is from 2 years ago.

      dom

    2. Re:Three hundred percent? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I like Microsoft, and I like when somebody defends them.

      I've been in IT for about 17 years. I've seen MS destroy "the little guy" time and time again, with thier power and yet with all that power, money and developer base, deliver garbage year after year, to this day.

      Then I compare them with offerings like Mac OS X, the BSD's and Linux and wonder, how on Earth someone can say, "I like Microsoft".

      Seriously now, what is there to like about them?

    3. Re:Three hundred percent? by Mad+Merlin · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Um, let's say you have a 200MHz 486... 300% better is 600Mhz. Shock! I found one!

      And you let me know when you find a 200 Mhz 486, ok?

    4. Re:Three hundred percent? by menkhaura · · Score: 2, Funny

      Four words:

      Well paid microsoft employee.

      --
      Stupidity is an equal opportunity striker.
      Fellow slashdotter Bill Dog
    5. Re:Three hundred percent? by NickFortune · · Score: 3, Insightful
      The best tool for the job? Well sometimes, maybe. Perhaps. But look - a spanner is a tool, right? Well in the case of MS we're talking about spanners that we can't buy but only licence. Spanners that MS can take back from us any time, despite the fact we paid good money. We're talking spanners that have been designed to stop working if we move to a house with a bigger garage.

      A lot of people would say "if you don't like that, don't use MS spanners". Fine. Done deal! :)

      Just a little way down the metaphorical road, there's a shop that sells spanners at a fraction of the price that MS does. They may not be as pretty, and for some jobs they aren't quite as exact - but they've been getting better for years and the difference is scarcely noticeable these days. And if you can do without the fancy packaging, you can go online and get that same tool free..

      And it's then yours to use legally, wherever and however you wish - so long as you don't try and claim you designed it.

      So the question is: by what criteria do you evaluate best? None free software, security holes, forced upgrades... with many people these things carry a hefty negative.

      --
      Don't let THEM immanentize the Eschaton!
    6. Re:Three hundred percent? by o517375 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Or maybe a soon-to-be-Google-employee

  3. Easy by green+pizza · · Score: 5, Informative

    Out of the box Apache doesn't do too well. But take some time tuning it, and your OS's TCP/IP stack, and you can easily outperform even Zeus. Read some of the tuning guides.

    1. Re:Easy by zeromemory · · Score: 4, Informative

      Furthermore, IIS performs better than Apache under light to moderate loads. Once you start moving to heavy loads, IIS begins to choke and eventually just can't handle any more clients. Apache just happily continues running.

      However, this might be more an effect of the underlying operating system than the actual server program. I haven't seen a comparison of Win32 Apache versus IIS, so I don't know.

    2. Re:Easy by Trejkaz · · Score: 2, Funny

      Nope, IIS is naturally slow and unable to be tweaked at all. :-)

      --
      Karma: It's all a bunch of tree-huggin' hippy crap!
    3. Re:Easy by dtfinch · · Score: 4, Insightful

      IIS was heavily tweaked for this benchmark. But for most uses, both IIS and apache are fast enough out of the box.

  4. "...the test was commisioned by Microsoft" by SlashChick · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Let's see. A test commissioned by Microsoft says IIS is faster than Apache. The link for more information goes to microsoft.com. Is this really "news"? Seems more like a thinly-disguised press release...

    1. Re:"...the test was commisioned by Microsoft" by august+sun · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Can we please for once be mature about it and look at their methodology objectively? I'll even grant that because it was commisioned by MS a little extra scrutiny is certainly due; but summarily discarding the study simply for this reason is the intellectual equivalent of sticking our fingers in our ears and screaming "lalalalalala" at the top of our lungs.

    2. Re:"...the test was commisioned by Microsoft" by cranos · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Um okay I did the "mature" thing and checked out the report. The report is two years old and compares an RC version of w2k3/IIS6 against an old version of Redhat AS/Apache thus rendering it completely useless for doing an evaluation today. Not only that but it neglects to compare against other linux distributions such as SUSE or Mandrake thus rendering the "Windows better than Linux" claims deceptive at best.

    3. Re:"...the test was commisioned by Microsoft" by jmv · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The thing with benchmarks is that when they're made by an organisation you can trust, you don't really have to dig the details (and there are always some details you won't see). If I have to dig through everything, I might as well do the benchmark myself! Now, looking at a benchmark sponsored by Microsoft is like reading a study on climate written by an oil company, a study on health by a tobacco company... or even a Linux-Windows benchmark done by RedHat (although I trust RH a bit more than MS).

      The only benchmark by MS which I might trust is one saying Windows is slower and/or worse than Linux. Somehow, I never saw any of those.

    4. Re:"...the test was commisioned by Microsoft" by 1u3hr · · Score: 2, Informative
      (if the above URL has a space in the word Immortal, don't blame me :) It looks fine in the comment, but the preview puts a space in. Anyone know why?)

      Trolls used to put long strings in which would stretch the page way over.

      Learn how to use HTML links; like ImmortalFumbles that, which you code like

      <a href="http://users.pandora.be/vdmoortel/dirk/Physi cs/ImmortalFumbles.html">ImmortalFumbles</a>

      (Slashdot will iinsert spaces in this of course.)

      Also, your original URL had a trailing / which made it bad.

    5. Re:"...the test was commisioned by Microsoft" by tjstork · · Score: 3, Interesting

      They are looking at the methodology objectively and have in the past. The deal is that MS keeps rolling out this same study, using the same methodology, and it isn't true.

      a) they use a slower kind of encryption on the apache side, which makes apache seem slower.

      b) they use a 2003 version of Red Hat with a 2.6 kernal whereas Linux is now up to a newer version.

      c) they make other tuning decisions for the RH they do use in order to slow it down, and to speed Microsoft up.

      In short, the test is rigged so that MS wins and Linux loses. It is that simple.

      --
      This is my sig.
  5. *ahem* by SynapseLapse · · Score: 2, Informative

    Veritest used webbench to do their testing.

  6. Ahem... from the Article by Evro · · Score: 5, Informative
    Microsoft Windows Server 2003 vs. Linux
    Competitive File Server Performance
    Comparison


    Test report prepared under contract from Microsoft

    Executive summary
    Microsoft commissioned VeriTest, a
    division of Lionbridge Technologies,
    Inc., to conduct a series of tests
    comparing the File serving
    performance of the following server
    operating system configurations
    running on a variety of server
    hardware and processor
    configurations:


    At least they're up-front about it these days.

    Other Veritest-Microsoft fun:

    http://www.veritest.com/clients/reports/microsoft/
    http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserversystem/facts /analyses/default.mspx
    http://www.gotdotnet.com/team/compare/veritest.asp x - .NET versus Java

    In short, this is a company paid by Microsoft to make reports/whitepapers that make Microsoft look good. Nothing wrong with that as long as everyone's aware

    --
    rooooar
    1. Re:Ahem... from the Article by team99parody · · Score: 2, Insightful
      At least they're up-front about it these days.

      I think they realized that the CXOs and other execs who make the big decisions never read the fine print anyway; and such disclaimers will never make the headline or a large-font pull-quote in any such marketing literature, so there's no harm in being up-front about it.

      Even fake grass-roots efforts (astroturfing) can be done openly these days.

      Oh, and to get on the Team99-bloggers-good side, I just wanted to say that Longhorn is so stunningly awesomely good that Microsoft won't have to resort to this kind of silly FUD once longhorn is released.

  7. Exactly what did the test CGI with? by bloodbob · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Notice the total lack of the CGI script?

  8. I run both at work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    And the results are interesting. The Gentoo server doesn't perform nearly as fast as the Windows Server for most basic serving tasks. But software like Exchange Server is so badly written that it's much slower than postfix.

    It's sad. If the same people writing 2k3 were writing products like Exchange, we wouldn't have a need for the Linux server.

  9. IIS is always faster. by Bug-Y2K · · Score: 5, Funny

    Faster to get infected.
    Faster to get rooted.
    Faster to get used as a warez server.

    Nothing new here.

    1. Re:IIS is always faster. by vcv · · Score: 2, Funny

      I assume you've never used IIS 6.0 which has been out for 2 years. Very very secure, easily arguable moreso than apache.

      But why would you believe that? I mean it's not like it's easy to find out..

    2. Re:IIS is always faster. by team99parody · · Score: 5, Informative
      "I assume you've never used IIS 6.0 .... Very very secure, easily arguable moreso than apache."

      You're shooting for a Funny mod, right? The biggest "advancement" in IIS 6 is that instead of IIS 5.X that that ran 100% in user-mode, IIS 6.X runs as a kernel module

      With IIS 6, everything changes. To start with, there's a new piece of kernel mode software: Http.sys. This driver, written by Microsoft, is responsible for receiving all IIS-bound TCP/IP traffic from the TCP/IP stack. Running in kernel mode gives the new driver a huge speed advantage
      Which is a cute trick for gaining performance at the expense of security (kinda like the various Linux kernel-web-servers like khttpd).

      "But why would you believe that? I mean it's not like it's easy to find out.."

      Indeed you are correct that it's not easy to find out. Leading security sites all report that it is NOT more secure as you allege. For example, the current rating of IIS 6report from Secunia, (one of the top couple security companies as opposed to merely your anecdotal rumor:

      "Microsoft Internet Information Services (IIS) 6 with all vendor patches installed and all vendor workarounds applied, is currently affected by one or more Secunia advisories rated Moderately critical
      "
      In contrast, Apache 2.X has the much better rating: "Apache 2.0.x with all vendor patches installed and all vendor workarounds applied, is currently affected by one or more Secunia advisories rated Less critical"
    3. Re:IIS is always faster. by Trepalium · · Score: 2
      It's also easily arguable that it's lessso than apache. The new kernel mode http.sys could give attackers unparalleled access to the server if vulnerabilities are found in it. w3svc still runs as SYSTEM so it's still possible to get full system access from an exploit of that (although I understand some of the privledges are dropped somewhat so most attackers would be left a guest account that is allowed to impersonate). And last, the relative number of security advisories are just as useless as when Linux proponents posted them against MS products in the past. Exploits of apache will get nobody (or httpd or whatever) privledge, and a second vulnerability (local root) will be required to take full control of the machine.

      Let's be honest here, Microsoft does not like having a large number of advisories to their name, so they are unlikely to disclose vulnerabilities they found and fixed themselves. On the other hand, Windows tends to be a much bigger target (why build a botnet where you'll have to search forever to find UNIX or Linux based hosts when you can make use of the plentiful, poorly administered MS Windows machines out there). Or the prestige of finding security vulns in a product in which you could not merely search the source code for common errors but rather had to use blackbox analysis or object code disassembly.

      Do you know how many security and bug fixes Microsoft engineered when building IIS 6 for Windows 2003 from 5.0/5.1? I'm guessing far more than the security advisories and knowledgebase articles would suggest. Microsoft's bug tracking database (I assume they have one) is not public and likely never will be, so we will never know the answer. In comparison, EVERYTHING the Apache Software Foundation does is public. On the other hand, I'm glad Microsoft finally stopped bragging about how many lines of code their All New Windows version has. It was just silly.

      --
      I used up all my sick days, so I'm calling in dead.
    4. Re:IIS is always faster. by Gigs · · Score: 2, Informative

      Prehaps you should look at the correct report http://secunia.com/product/1438/ which shows 33% of Vulnerabilities are UNPATCHED and another 33% that you have to properly configure a workaround to fix... so ya I'd rather use the one that has all those patches that fix 86% of the issues.

      See so theres more to securing your box than turning off one tool, you have to know how to look up the issues which you can do easly on Apache's site right here: http://httpd.apache.org/bug_report.html and its linked right off the front pages of the web servers site.

      Then theres Microsoft's site for iis who's security link, links to this wonderful page http://www.microsoft.com/security/guidance/prodtec h/IIS.mspx. But whats that all you see is this message: "We're sorry, but there is no Microsoft.com Web page that matches your entry."

      Yup that gives you a warm and fuzzy feeling all over!

  10. Fair testing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Reminds me of this editorial on the G5's testing by Veritest. http://spl.haxial.net/apple-powermac-G5/

  11. Swings and roundabouts by ricky-road-flats · · Score: 5, Funny

    So does that make SMS on Windows faster than morse code on Linux?

  12. One question... by guaigean · · Score: 2, Funny

    I wonder if Bill Gates actually believes his own bullshit...

    --
    Microsoft Sucks, F/OSS Rocks. I get mod points now right?
    1. Re:One question... by Nos. · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Of course not, but that's not the point. Typically the guys who make the money decisions will read the headlines, and glaze over the rest, probably missing details like this study was paid for by Microsoft. Ever have to hand in a project proposal or such? I've done many, rarely does anything other than the Executive Summary get read. The rest is just there to make the document look good. Microsoft has a very big marketing department. They know this kind of stuff. Do you really think Microsoft would pay for these "studies" if they didn't show a positive return on investment?

  13. Not surprising by hoka · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If they were running heavily restricted SELinux on RedHat it wouldn't be surprising to witness a massive slowdown on certain applications, and will likely be infinitely more secure than a Windows box probably could ever be. Beyond that Apache can be very slow out of the box, on my hardened gentoo test system (please withhold funroll loops jokes) Apache2 with hardened PHP + MySQL I would be lucky to handle 2 requests a second happily, it was amazingly slow. I've yet to fully tune it but some even basic tuning was able to improve speeds dramatically. It wouldn't surprise me if similar techniques were used by this "benchmark".

  14. Why did they bother? by Umbral+Blot · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What possibly possessed them to publish these results. No one in their right mind is going to believe 300% is an accurate figure under fair testing conditions.

  15. Let's be reasonable by PaulQuinn · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why couldn't IIS be faster than Apache?
    Is Apache/Linux the "end-all-be-all, there is nothing that can be better so let's stop trying" type of quality?
    Are the guys who work at Microsoft a bunch of idiots that anyone can out-program?

    I'm sure IIS is better at some things, maybe more things, maybe less.

    Who cares! I don't think stats like these are why anyone chooses Apache/Linux over IIS/Windows.

    1. Re:Let's be reasonable by HairyCanary · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It very well could be. However, let's try 1) an indepedent test, paid for by neither competitor, and 2) the most recent version of IIS against the most recent version of Apache, and 3) the most recent version of Windows against the most recent version of Linux. I can guarantee a win in any test so long as I am allowed to dictate all of the conditions. I wonder how many combinations they tried before they found one that IIS6 could beat?

    2. Re:Let's be reasonable by ArbitraryConstant · · Score: 3, Informative

      300% is pretty hard to believe.

      Apache was never optimized for serving lots of small, static files so I can easily believe it falling behind in some benchmarks, but not 300%.

      It doesn't take much computer to saturate a lot of bandwidth, which is why most people don't care, but big sites will often have a Zeus (or similar) server set up for serving images precisely because Apache isn't as good for that. But you've got to be huge before you get to that point.

      Dynamic content put Apache where it is. It has the support, the tools, the libraries, and the widespread expertise to do dynamic content pretty damn well. It's not better than everyone at everything there either, but it's a very good solution for most cases.

      --
      I rarely criticize things I don't care about.
    3. Re:Let's be reasonable by julesh · · Score: 3, Informative

      Why couldn't IIS be faster than Apache?

      It could be. However, this test is severely flawed in that they performed registry level optimisations to the Windows setup, yet equivalent optimisations that are well documented for Linux were not performed. Therefore, we don't know.

    4. Re:Let's be reasonable by Arimus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      We'll be reasonable when companies carrying out these kind of performance sutdies compare apples with apples (and ideally with no hint of GM involved):

      1. Use identical hardware...
      2. Use the default un-optimized settings...
      3. Hand tune using experts on the software under test...
      4. Rerun the identical tests...
      5. Ensure that clients used to test server software are identically configured.

      That would be being reasonable...

      --
      --- Users are like bacteria -> Each one causing a thousand tiny crises until the host finally gives up and dies.
    5. Re:Let's be reasonable by incabulos · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Why couldn't IIS be faster than Apache?

      No reason. However going by historical benchmark precedents, and with the assumption that open-source applications improve at a faster rate than their proprietry competition, I find the claim to be rather improbable.

      Is Apache/Linux the "end-all-be-all, there is nothing that can be better so let's stop trying" type of quality?

      Nope. Its merely the best we have right now, there is always room for improvement.

      Are the guys who work at Microsoft a bunch of idiots that anyone can out-program?


      No, but they are coders forced to work with antiquated interfaces and inbred development tools in secrecy using a clunky weak OS with a decade of accumulated garbage under the hood. An OS that has evolved due to marketing and legal impervatives ( gosh we had better make IE an essential part of the OS just like we claimed in court! ) rather than technical, performance, or security goals.

      I'm sure IIS is better at some things, maybe more things, maybe less.

      Yeah, it runs .ASP and ActiveX better than Linux/Apache, or any other OS/webserver combination! *Golf clap for IIS*

  16. And now, ladies and gentlemen... by Spy+der+Mann · · Score: 2, Funny

    I'll test the amazing Linux versus the ultra-slow windows NT.

    Config:
    Linux: Latest Redhat running on Opteron 4GHz
    Windows: Windows 3.1 running on a Pentium 100.

    And the winner is...?[/sarcasm]

  17. To para(dy)-phrase by FidelCatsro · · Score: 4, Funny

    Windows 2003 server running on skynet is 300% Faster than Ye-oldie redhat -12 edition from 1723 running on an abacus.
    This reliable Expensive test paid for by Microsoft to show how much better windows 2003 server is(the payment came with a clause stating such).

    --
    The only things certain in war are Propaganda and Death. You can never be sure which is which though
  18. Not just faster, lower cost of 0wnersh1p too. by team99parody · · Score: 2, Interesting

    And remember, that the TC0 (0 for 0wnersh1p) is lower for Windows as well (""Immunity's findings clearly show that the best platform for your targets to be running is Microsoft Windows, allowing YOU unparalleled value for THEIR dollar."). For anyone who missed it, /. had a lot of great discussion on that one from people who couldn't detect a troll.

  19. This is new? by louarnkoz · · Score: 5, Informative

    The web page says it was published May 5, 2004, i.e. a year ago. The report itself is dated from April 2003. The test was done using RH advanced server 2 and Windows 2003 RC2, i.e. a pre-release version. Since then, both RH and Microsoft have published new releases, for example the service pack 1 of Windows 2003. Why is this posted now?

    1. Re:This is new? by 51mon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The answer to "why now" is on the Veritest web page.

      The paper is hilarious if you actually read it.

      Key points...

      They looked for tips on optimising Apache on the Redhat website ?!(guys next time try httpd.apache.org).

      They found that Apache 2 was 50% faster than Apache 1 (without any tuning, Apache 2 offers a selection of threading models so a fair comparion would have tried each in turn, with or without tuning), so presumably didn't do any further tests with that in case it made MS look bad.

      They tuned Windows for the server but effectively plead ignorance of how to tune Redhat for the server.

      My guess is even then, on this hardware, sensible tuning of the kind they did to Windows would have made Apache comparable or better.

      There were issues with this hardware selection at the time. Driving Gigabit ethernet is pretty demanding stuff, and you need drivers that can handle interrupt load.

      However anyone who actually needs an 8 CPU machine to serve gigabit websites will probably do their own benchmarking and tuning, in the unlikely event their application software gives them a free choice of platform.

      When my employers online business is big enough to need gigabit hosting, we'll probably still have SQUID on Linux with shed loads of memory accelerating the static content, because hardware is cheaper than rewriting the corporate applications.

  20. Yester-year's News Today! by Percy_Blakeney · · Score: 4, Funny
    Not only does the linked page say it was published in mid-2004, but the study itself is from early 2003. How does this qualify as a 'recent' study? Just because someone read it for the first time today doesn't mean it was created today...

    Sheesh -- with such outdated news, I almost felt like I was reading the newspaper or something.

  21. Old test by veritest was flawed. Linuxworld by zymano · · Score: 4, Interesting
  22. What about Norton? by qualico · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Wonder what that benchmark would be if you installed the FULL Norton package on it?

    This bull reminds me of those advertisements for weight loss.

    BEFORE................AFTER
    Stick stomach out....Suck stomach in
    White......................Tanned
    No cosmetics..........New facial
    Front shot...............Side shot
    Grubby clothes........New fashions

  23. 2k3 has the same kind of optimisations as Tux w/s by NekoXP · · Score: 2, Interesting


    2003 has kernel-level webserver acceleration and offloads a lot of the processing
    there, the same was as the Tux webserver (also RedHat?) beat the shit out of
    Apache. It's essentially zero-copy-networking with zero-copy-webserving too.

    http://www1.us.dell.com/content/topics/global.aspx /power/en/ps1q01_redhat?c=us&cs=555&l=en&s=biz

    There may be some truth in it, therefore. Aren't there some patches these days to
    hook Apache directly into the Linux kernel too, since Tux is obselete? I doubt
    they ship with RedHat's stock system though even if they exist.

  24. Re:How to tell if you are a linux fanatic. by thaig · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Every time you mention a company's name you are giving it free advertising. It seems that for commercial entities it is better to be well known than well liked.

    So why shouldn't people deny that freebie by refusing to use the exact name?

    Regards,

    Tim

    --
    This is all just my personal opinion.
  25. My personal imperical data..... by pg110404 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I've been around on the net for a while now and if there is one thing I can say that is universal it's that servers that implement ASP are generally more flaky than other types of servers.

    I use tvlistings2.zap2it.com which has ASP, and while I think they've gotten far better in the recent past, even 4 or 5 months ago, it would routinely lose my channel line up and if I'd try to log in to reset the cookie it would claim my login account doesn't exist. I'd follow their suggestion and try recreating the account and it said it was already in use. But I can't log in because it doesn't exist, but I can't recreate it because it already exists, but I can't log in because it doesn't exist.......

    Anyway, I notice time and time again how sites that churn out ASP pages have typically slower response times compared to ones that have PHP or straight static HTML. For anyone who wonders how I determine that, I go to load a web page, and I wait for it to load. If it starts taking a while and I mean a really long while, I look at the URL and more often than not, I'll see it has a reference to an ASP. Maybe the "oh it's another one of those stupid IIS servers" makes it stick out in my mind more than "wait, this one is slow. I don't really know what's running it but it's crap", but if I had to put money on it, I'd say the IIS servers are generally slower.

    I don't run a web server, I could, but I don't. Managing web servers would not be a job I'd want to do. Almost all of my web server experience is on the visitor side and without any kind of overtly blatant bias from any sources (like the kind of "windows crashes therefore windows is evil and anything dealing with windows is also evil") to affect my opinion, I'd have to say that I personally experience a more significant lack of performance and reliability visiting web sites that run IIS than other sites that don't appear to run it. So to me, a report like this is microsoft's ever so polite way of trying to stick an uncomfortably large tube up my ass and then proceeding to blow smoke through the opening.

  26. What would it cost for Google to do this. by team99parody · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Parent wrote: Google should switch then.

    Anyone do the math to see what that would cost.

    It's conventional wisdom that Google has about 100,000 servers. If google went with Windows 2003 Server Enterprise Edition (which costs $3999 ) That would cost google about half a billion dollars.

    Extending the logic to use SQL Server Enterprise Edition as their search database, at $25000/server the price would go up to about $2.5 Billion.

    Every CEO likes to be like Google and likes talking about numbers like billions of dollars; so this is a fun set of numbers to throw around when your're discussing microsoft partnerships with the CEO.

    (Note, however, that in the true spirit of Team99, I must say that Longhorn will make it well worth the price, though, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Google switch)

  27. Let's settle this for once and for all by grcumb · · Score: 4, Insightful

    People keep saying, 'When are we going to get a real benchmark?" Well, why don't we roll our own? Seriously.

    Here's my idea:

    Slashdot has strong zealot^H^H^H^H^H^Hsupporters for both Microsoft and Linux. Let's have a contest to select the best qualified from each side, have them work in teams on identical hardware. Let them make any changes, tweaks or optimisations they can dream up. Then, let 'em rip.

    I'm dead serious about this, by the way. Let's get off this endless roundabout and for once make a clear comparison.

    For bonus points, once the first contest is finished, we should take the two servers, leave them exposed to the Internet and see which one gets 0wned first. 8^)

    --
    Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
    1. Re:Let's settle this for once and for all by khujifig · · Score: 3, Funny

      And then submit the results of the test to slashdot, linking to each machine, and see which dies first?

  28. Unfair comparison, CGI vs. ISAPI by Trejkaz · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Microsoft argue that Apache is slower because CGI is slower. They say that it needs to spawn a new process for each request, which is correct.

    But how many years have mod_perl and mod_php been around now? Does anyone actually use CGI on Apache this decade?

    Perhaps a more fair comparison would have compared CGI on IIS with CGI on Apache. And I'm pretty sure that for various reasons (spawning processes is slower on Win32 than on Linux) IIS would lose horribly.

    --
    Karma: It's all a bunch of tree-huggin' hippy crap!
  29. objectively? by Infonaut · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I'll even grant that because it was commisioned by MS a little extra scrutiny is certainly due; but summarily discarding the study simply for this reason is the intellectual equivalent of sticking our fingers in our ears and screaming "lalalalalala" at the top of our lungs.

    Actually, it's learned behavior. We've seen so many fact-warping MS-sponsored studies, astroturfing campaigns, dissembling regarding the nature of their monopoly, and other aggressive PR that it's no wonder people are more than a little skeptical.

    This reminds me of something someone told me about graphic card benchmarks. He is a 3d graphics professional, and he was called in by a rather large chip company to help them in a test against another large chip maker's video card. The arrangement was that he would work with the representative from the other company to come up with a "fair" set tests to which both sides could agree.

    As the more experienced guy, he was able to get his counterpart to agree to tests that worked squarely in favor of his company's card. This is in a scenario where it is supposed to be evenhanded, since both companies agreed to the test methodology.

    So it's bad enough already. Compare a situation like that to one in which Microsoft is commissioning a study, and you can imagine why people react with such profound skepticism.

    --
    Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
  30. Re:How to tell if you are a linux fanatic. by NixLuver · · Score: 2, Insightful

    So, for that piece of crap, you say "a *lot* of stuff he says is 'true'" (emphasis mine), and the best you offer is that people using appellations like "Micro$oft" burns your ass? Come on. Maybe it's the "penis envy" part? Or the part about "Setting up a server in Windows takes a couple of minutes"? Sorry, I see a bunch of wanking and sour-graping, combined with outright lies, and a few pointed pokes at the Linux Zealot community - which I don't credit with any 'hit points' because this is obviously from someone who would like to be a Windows Zealot, but isn't competent... or maybe it's a Linux Zealot making Windows Zealots look like idiots?

  31. May not be FUD by Sivar · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I actually thought that this was common knowledge--that Windows Server 2003 with ASPX was faster than Linux/Apache with PHP, or that Server 2003 was generally faster with static content. (I admit, I only glanced over the article, and Adobe Acrobat's search tool is the worst of crap, so sue me if it didn't mention ASPX).

    1)ASP (not ASPX) are fairly flaky and recent versions are roughly comparable to, but slower than, PHP4 (not sure about 5), in general.

    2) Windows is not very good at creating new processes quickly. This is why CGI (not fastCGI) in the platform is so glacially slow.
    Let's have an example. Let's say that you make a dynamic webpage in which all content is generated by a C++ CGI program. Ignoring database access for the time being, since that dilutes the example, on Windows, the website would be MUCH slower than the same website written in ASPX, even though the actual execution time of the C++ program is shorter (assuming a competent C++ coder).
    This is because for each request, Windows must create a new process (the CGI program), and destroy the process when the request is complete.
    While the execution time is low, the process management overhead dwarfs the actual page runtime, because Windows doesn't do that sort of thing quickly. This is why CGI has long been blacklistedon Windows systems by good web devs, and this is one reason that Apache 1.x was such a dog on Windows. Apache 1.x creates a new Apache process for each request.

    Now Linux, on the other hand, creates processes about as fast as it creates threads, which is to say, really damn fast. Apache 1 has always worked just fine on Linux (and indeed most Unix systems) because the overhead of creating a process, while significant, isn't slower than a dead slug stuck in frozen molasses like it is on Windows.
    Apache 2.x allows requests to be served by a thread or a process, or a number of processes that each create several threads (any Apache gurus please correct me if any of this is off).
    It follows that this isn't a big deal on Linux (because process creation isn't really much slower than thread creation), but is a very big deal on Windows.

    Windows has ASPX, which is Microsoft's marketing term for the use of the .NET framework for web content delivery (get it--the 'X' makes it sound cool. Or something). .NET is compiled, and ASPX needs neither process nor thread creation. Like any .NET application, ASPX can run sort of close to native speeds (native + lots of wrapper overhead + generic memory management overhead and such.)

    Yet Apache is still back here creating a process or thread for each and every request (note that there are some ways to speed things up. FastCGI comes to mind, but I don't want to get into the gory details that I don't know enough about). This is not the brightest way to do it in terms of performance, but then, Apache appears to have been designed for universality and configurability over raw throughput.

    It is unwise to hold the attitude that Apache can't be beaten by IIS, especially when IIS is optimized for one platform--by the vendor of that platform. Apache isn't even the fastest on Linux. Take a look at Zeus webserver. It serves circles around Apache on any platform it supports--including Penguin land.
    In fact, Zeus uses a technique called SendFile() which, oddly enough, is strikingly similar Microsoft's own TransmitFile() API. Hmm.

    Think of it this way: Apache is to IIS as GCC is to ICC, at least in terms of performance and generality.
    Intel's compiler (ICC) consistantly blows away GCC in terms of the performance and size of the compiled code, but GCC runs on just about anything with a CPU, can cross-compile, is free, doesn't pull any PHB evil tricks, and actually compiles things like the Linux kernel without pat

    --
    Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes. --E. W. Dijkstra
    1. Re:May not be FUD by _defiant_ · · Score: 5, Informative

      You are mistaken on some Apache concepts and how threads (?used to?) work on Linux.

      This is because for each request, Windows must create a new process (the CGI program), and destroy the process when the request is complete. While the execution time is low, the process management overhead dwarfs the actual page runtime, because Windows doesn't do that sort of thing quickly. This is why CGI has long been blacklistedon Windows systems by good web devs, and this is one reason that Apache 1.x was such a dog on Windows. Apache 1.x creates a new Apache process for each request.

      No.

      Now Linux, on the other hand, creates processes about as fast as it creates threads, which is to say, really damn fast.

      Yes, but only because pthreads does this by creating a new process (that just happens to share some things with its parents, like address space). Ergo, creating threads is just as fast as creating processes because they are nearly the same thing.

      The NPTL in 2.6 might have changed this, but I have not read the docs yet.

      Yet Apache is still back here creating a process or thread for each and every request (note that there are some ways to speed things up. FastCGI comes to mind, but I don't want to get into the gory details that I don't know enough about). This is not the brightest way to do it in terms of performance, but then, Apache appears to have been designed for universality and configurability over raw throughput.

      No, Apache does not create a new process for each request. It creates a pool of child processes which sit waiting for requests. The parent monitors this pool and creates new spare children when too many child processes are busy. This way, most of the time a request comes in there is already a child process sitting idle waiting for work.

      CGI does indeed require forking a new process, but there are already great ways to handle this. mod_perl, mod_php, mod_python all do it by embeding the interpreter inside the server. FastCGI keeps a version of the program running (much like apache does with its spares).

      You are correct in that your description isn't the brightest way to do things. That's why operating system designers solved these problems years ago.

      For static content, again, Apache creates a new process or thread for every request (with some exceptions). If you'll forgive a bit of an oversimplification, it's like writing a program that prints text to the screen. One program calls printf() in a loop. The other program executes a second program which itself displays just one line, and runs that in a loop.

      Again, no. Apache will usually not need to create a new process or thread for every connection. The correct analogy would be the other program spawning the required number of children, and then asking them to all printf at the same time.

  32. Stop whining and help speed up Apache! by Fefe · · Score: 5, Insightful
    It's ridiculous how the Slashdot crowd is falling victim to Pavlov again.

    If someone publishes a benchmark about your software, and finds out your software does not perform well, don't whine, don't behave like a child, don't start kicking and screaming, don't tear his hair out. Behave professionally.

    Good starting points:

    • Does their test setup matter?
    • Can their number possibly be true?
    • What weak spots about the competition does their test reveal?
    • What can we do to improve the results?


    Let me summarize what I think about their test. First of all, I believe their numbers. Apache sucks performance-wise, in particular if you run a busy site with dynamic content. That's why people are using squid in local accelerator mode before Apache. This is a good indication that some performance tuning is in order. But no, people rather wait for Microsoft to find out and then they start thinking about fixing it.

    If this test was meant to be unfair FUD, they would not have tested TUX, just Apache.

    But now to my questions above:

    Question 1: is their setup relevant?

    No. Sites who answer more than 5000 requests per second are not using a single web server, they are using a load balancer and a cluster.

    Question 2: Can their numbers possibly be true?

    The point I find least believable is that IIS had better CGI performance than Apache. Creating a process is really slow on Windows. Their result should be independently verified.

    Question 3: What weak spots about the competition does their test reveal?

    They did not test a single-CPU webserver (which is what almost everyone is using).

    They did not test FastCGI or APAPI dynamic web pages.

    So if we wanted to do a more balanced review, we would look at these.

    Question 4: What can we do to improve the results.

    Document APAPI better, I'd say. Almost nobody is writing their dynamic web page modules with APAPI.
    Everyone is using PHP or mod_perl. Benchmark Apache in real-world scenarios. Document best practices.
  33. Missing Link by hritcu · · Score: 2, Interesting
    http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2005/05/01/may_2 005_web_server_survey.html

    Allowed HTML: ... <a> ...
    Can anyone tell me how do I use that?
    <a href="...">...</a> does not work.

    --
    If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough. (Alan Kay)
  34. Re:How to tell if you are a linux fanatic. by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 5, Insightful

    > 1. You rejuvenate and dance when you hear a windows flaw exposed, but you conveniently ignore the thousands of security flaws exposed in linux.

    "Rejuvenate" means "renew, appear to grow younger". Did you mean "become jubilant"?

    I don't become jubilant when anybody's security flaw is exposed. In the case of Open Source apps, patches are generally available in a couple of days.

    > 2. You yell loudly TROLL! at any person's post or at any person you see posting facts that you do not want to hear about your oh so cool linux.

    No, just the ones that misstate the facts or are attempts at FUD.

    > 3. You know it's a classic case of penis envy, you don't have all the support, software and hardware available for linux and you have to let that anger out somewhere, but you don't have the brains to admit it.

    Um, Linux supports all my hardware just great.

    > 4. You hate windows, hate Microsoft, but race to emulate windows, have programs to run office from within linux, and spend a $300 on a Windows emulator, only Windows fools.

    > I run Linux, Windows, and Solaris machines. I use OpenOffice.org and so have no need for Microsoft Office. But if I did, I could run it using WINE, which I can get for free. Unlike MS Office.

    > 5. You cannot admit that you don't have professional usage of Linux outside server markets.

    I use Linux *professionally* on the desktop.

    > 6. You cannot admit that most of the joe user out there when told that there is linux will respond, what is that?

    Sounds like there's a need for some consciousness-raising, then. Alothugh I've noticed that more and more people -- even Joe Sixpack types -- don't go glassy-eyed when Linux is mentioned these days.

    > 7. You cannot admit that there is no professional printing capabilities in linux.

    I don't have any problems printing from Linux.

    > 8. You cannot admit that you are a masochist (otherwise why would someone spend hours playing with scripts, and recompiling programs that are available for Windows?)

    Well, it did take me about 30 seconds to learn how to type "./configure - make - make install - make clean". Or if I'm feeling lazy, I can just double-click an RPM file icon in Konqueror.

    > 9. You cannot admit that there is no professional desktop publishing done on Linux.

    Sorry, mate, you're talking to someone who does just that for a living.

    > 10. You cannot admit that no one in their right mind would do professional video editing in Linux.

    I honestly don't know about that. But I do know that lots of movies' special effects are being generated these days using Linux-powered render farms.

    > 11. You cannot admit that linux sucks when it comes for gaming/home entertainment or education.

    There are tonnes of educational apps available for Linux -- many of them come with commercial distros. There are still more on the Net. As for games -- if I want to play games, I'll buy an X-Box.

    > 12. You have problems in understanding Windows, and you will blame your own incompetence on Microsoft.

    Over the years, I've used and administered Windows 3.1/95/98/Me/2000 and have no problems doing so. But after just 6 months, I can install, configure, and administer a Linux machine faster and more reliably.

    > 13. You have problems in pointing a clicking, but have no problems in wading through cryptic scripts written by lunatics.

    Pointing and clicking has its place. But there are lots of things that are actually easier via a command line. For instance, I'd much rather run a MySQL server that way than use the GUI tools. Nice thing about Linux and Open Source apps in general is that you've a choice in the matter. If you don't like the command line, don't use the bloody thing.

    > 14. Nothing will get past that shit that fills your head, you will not admit to any facts.

    Can't respond to an assertion that's semantically nil, sorry.

    > 15. Yo

    --
    Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
  35. more benchmarks, apache really is slow by j1m+5n0w · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Googling around, I found these benchmarks published by litespeed (who apparently put out their own web server, which (big surprise) they found to beat most of the competitors in most of the tests). Interesting numbers. According to their results, apache really is slow. IIS did a bit better. TUX was extremely fast serving small static files. In one test, they have apache 2.0.52 serving 4673 files per second, compared to 33025 for IIS 6.0 and 53304 per second for TUX.

    I don't know if these numbers are trustworthy, but at least its another datapoint.

  36. Re:How to tell if you are a linux fanatic. by dbIII · · Score: 2, Informative
    Flamebait? No, there are valid points as well as misconception. Being fanatical gets you laughed at for good reason. Some points are just ignorance which many people share, like this:

    7. You cannot admit that there is no professional printing capabilities in linux.

    I have a choice of Larson, SDI, Zeh and Easycopy as linux vendors to print to the 42 inch non-postscript printers in my workplace - very much a niche market but still covered.

    5. You cannot admit that you don't have professional usage of Linux outside server markets.

    Microsoft never entirely took over the workstation market, and linux boxes have been used as cheap unix workstations for years.

    13. You have problems in pointing a clicking, but have no problems in wading through cryptic scripts written by lunatics.

    Visual memory vs other kinds - some people find mousing through a lot of menus or the registry easier than flat config files, while I'm the other kind - valid point taken.

    23. You don't know commercial support in Linux is almost non existent.

    I run commercial software on 24 dual Xeon linux machines that costs almost as much each year as it did to buy the machines, but it is used to do things which make money for the company. It runs on solaris and AIX machines in the place as well. If I have a problem with it in the middle of the night there are people I can call to solve the problem - but normally emails with a one day lag due to time zones are good enough. As far as the company that sells the software is concerned we are a small operation - there are people with very big clusters out there.

    26. You are unaware that setting up servers on Windows takes couple of minutes while on linux, good luck playing with configuration scripts.

    Even from a disk image it take more than "a couple of minutes" to set up a windows server, even on something small like NT4.

    21. While the rest of the world moves on, you're stuck in a stone age technology that needs third party software to boot into GUI.

    It's unix - I know this!

    Third party software is everywhere, and it gave MS Windows the ability to get onto the net. Why re-invent the wheel when you already have something decent in the same group?

    25. You are unaware that linux has no terminal services (there is a lame one that no one uses), and commercial support for it is not happening.

    X is old news and VNC has been around for a few years too - in a wide variety of different situations both appear to still be a better solution than windows terminal services.

    29. You spend countless hours flaming people because

    Yes, but I'm doing it from work! However, Im doing it on a Saturday night while rebuilding a disk array - must be a masochist as specified above :(

    33. You keep ignoring the fact that thousands of linux servers get hacked every year

    Good point - all it took was one idiot giving all mail users shell access, turning on telnet and another idiot using "coffee" as a password and I had to rebuild a hacked box. You can set up an insecure system with just about any OS if you don't have a clue - there are plenty of people who use linux who don't have a clue, we all have to start somewhere - the learning curve is there, so if you don't know what to do you have to follow the docs or find out.

    17. You feel inferior deep inside but unable to admit it, you don't have a database as easy and powerful as Access.

    Have you ever seen other databases? MS Access vs most other databases is a similar comparison to MS Notepad vs most word processing software. Similarly you can still do decent work in MS Notepad, and sometimes that's all you need. MS Access doesn't even have a stable scripting language - I've learned two seperate scrip

  37. Re:You are exactly right !! by mattyrobinson69 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    that'd be cool - have a load balancing firewall to pass every other connection to the apache box, see if the iis box sets on fire

  38. Re:How to tell if you are a linux fanatic. by Xabraxas · · Score: 2, Insightful
    For hardware, windows support is vastly more comprehensive and complete than linux... though linux has better support of hardware more than a year old, as things improve...

    Hardware support maybe more complete on the x86 platform but that's it. Linux has far superior hardware support over all.

    would like to see more effort towards binary compatability in the kernel to support binary drivers a bit more consistantly though.

    There is a reason that binary compatibility doesn't exist in proprietary drivers. Linux is a free system and was never intended to support 3rd party, proprietary drivers.

    IMHO BSD is probably a better OS option than Linux is in a lot of ways (free/open/net)... though linux has the fame, glory, and fanatic following. I like windows, I use windows...

    I see this posted all the time but It just leads me to beleive the poster has never used Linux or BSD. It seems like people are using this line to try and ward of criticism by saying "look, I like free software, just not Linux", or "I like Unix, just not Linux".

    --
    Time makes more converts than reason
  39. The red flag by jav1231 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The red flag here is "300%." I don't think anyone can take it seriously with such a large desparity. That's like two hybrid car makers competing and the salesman tells a customer "Yeah, they get 50mpg but ours gets a bagillion-zillion!"

  40. Almost by Eternally+optimistic · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If you require identical hardware, some might complain that it's more suited to a particular system. Give them a fixed amount of money for the server. Or a fixed amount of other resources that might be the bottleneck (power, floorspace, maintenance time/month,...)

    --
    What keeps me going is my inertia.
  41. Re:Accelerating Apache by bundaegi · · Score: 2, Informative
    Does anyone know if any of the bits of the Silicon Graphics accelerating apache project were ever rolled into Apache 1.3.x or 2.x?

    Reading you link...

    Unfortunately the ASF rejected the work presented here and SGI terminated the project. It has a new home now on SourceForge, courtesy of SGI, and it seeks a new owner and a fresh start. Want Apache to run faster? Want to take a different approach to appealing to the ASF? Perhaps simply presenting the ASF with a different spokesperson would improve the odds of adoption. Apply to the current owner for project ownership or to sponsor me to revive the project.

    Nonetheless, this project's aggressive optimizations make Apache/1.3 up to ten times faster and Apache/2.0 up to four times faster on the SPECweb96 benchmark.

    And in the FAQ:

    12. Will the ASF adopt the patches?
    We contributed the patches to the Apache Software Foundation but the ASF has refused to include the patches in future releases of Apache/1.3 or 2.0, citing "unnecessary" typecasts and complication associated with the warning-free 64-bit port, and incompatible license terms with the state-threaded MPM.

    So I presume... no :-) Thanks for the link anyway.
    --
    bundaegi is good for you
  42. Identical budgets, not hardware hardware by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Of course, the budget has to buy both software and hardware.

    After all, we want to count TCO and performance, right? :-)

  43. I like it. by hey! · · Score: 2, Funny

    Kind of like the ultimate fighting championship -- no holds barred compentition between alpha geeks to see who can webbench more.

    Of course this is completely irrelevant to real world usage scenarios. What we need is another data point from the other end of the spectrum. It can be like one of those reality shows. You rope four teams of ordinary folk right of the street, hand each team identical base (no OS) servers, only each team gets a different operating system :Windows, RHEL, FreeBSD and MacOS (Of course, the Mac group will have to work with the closest apprixmation we can manage to the x86 box going by paper specs). Their task will be to build an ecommerce site and successfully run it without getting hacked for four successive weeks, armed only the documentation provided with the operating system.

    We can call it SURV1V0R.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    1. Re:I like it. by barneyfoo · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Actually the ultimate test would be for an independant party to Sponsor a challenge.

      Each would team would get(windows and linux):

      $5,000 in cash with which to buy hardware and software. All purchases must carry a receipt and all parts must run to spec. No overclocking.

      Garunteed 5 9's power.

      Each Team's computer will be housed in the same independant facility maintained by Sponsor.

      The contest can last no longer than a year. Each team will be able to maintain their own server throughout the competition.

      The scoring will be simple. You won't lose points for having down time. Your score is simply the number server pages(the kind to be determined) you've properly served before your first moment of downtime. So if your server crashes before the year is over, the number of pages served up to that point is your score.

      Maybe someone has an idea for what a good server is to run.

    2. Re:I like it. by fireboy1919 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      No, that's still no good.

      Then you could be dealing with luck. You happen to get a bad batch of RAM and your server crashes? Sucks for you. The other guy wins. Somebody decides to get the other team to win via DDOS? Sucks. Other team wins. Random lightening strike? You see the problem?

      Plus it makes stability the ultimate concern rather than (possibly) throughput, which is clearly a benchmark in favor of Linux, since the OS itself is simply better designed (if for no other reason than because they replace the worn-out parts more often). If you go down for a minute every day, but only for a minute, will anyone care?

      Most likely not. Incidentally, thats about the length of time it takes for me to restart my apache install. Heck, I could run apache with xinetd without too much problem, which to me is kind of cheating.

      A better idea would be to separate these into two separate scores: one for uptime characteristics (including recovery time), and one for throughput.

      --
      Mod me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!
  44. like noatime by diegocgteleline.es · · Score: 3, Informative

    Surprise, they enabled DisableLastAccesS on windows but did not mounted linux filesystems with noatime

    noatime disables the update of the "last accesS" field of files, and improves the performance a lot for some workloads. If you check the latest article about the kernel.org servers, they found that they reduced the system load to the half by just using this option

    This analisys is biased. Who cares, anyway?

  45. There is only one way to get a fair test.... by wowbagger · · Score: 2, Interesting
    There is only one way you can get a "fair" test in a situation like this:

    1. Let Microsoft come up with a set of tests to be applied.
    2. Let RedHat come up with a set of tests to be applied.
    3. Compute the union of the two sets of tests.
    4. Let Microsoft specify the target cost of the hardware they want to benchmark on (C1).
    5. Let Redhat specify the target cost of the hardware they want to benchmark on (C2).
    6. Take the geometric mean of the two hardware costs (C=sqrt(C1*C2))
    7. Given C, let Microsoft determine the hardware to be benchmarked on, given the assumption that the purchaser of the hardware will be a third party buying from standard sources (e.g. NewEgg, Dell, IBM, whatever - but not eBay or the like - new hardware only).
    8. Again, given C, let RedHat determine the hardware to be purchased - new hardware only from recognized sources.
    9. Third party buys both sets of hardware and delivers it to RedHat and Microsoft.
    10. Microsoft provides detailed setup and configuration instructions for the test. Microsoft may have access to the hardware for the purposes of determining these settings. Setups are NOT allowed to use non-publicly available code (i.e. applying released service packs is OK, applying custom service packs is NOT allowed).
    11. RedHat provides detailed setup and configuration instructions. RedHat may have access to the hardware for the purposes of determining these settings. Setups are NOT allowed to use non-publicly available code (i.e. released updates via up2date are allowed, but custom code is NOT allowed.)
    12. Both sides return the hardware to the third party, who then verifies the hardware had not been modified (alternatively, the third party purchases 2 sets of hardware for each side, keeping one set.)
    13. Third party performs the installs as per the instructions for both sides.
    14. Third party performs the tests.
    15. Test results, hardware spec, and setup instructions are posted.


    This way, each side may tweak their setup to the max, using all specialized knowledge, to get maximum performance. Since each side may run the optimal hardware configuration (given price restrictions), the practice of hobbling the other side by picking ill-supported hardware is prevented.

    This test best conforms to the sort of thing an end user would do - pick the best bang for the buck for the budget and task at hand.

    Now, this might result in a dual Itanium server (Windows) being benchmarked against a dual Power server (Linux) (or some other comparison), but that is "fair" in that both sides are running on the same COST hardware.

    True, each side might "release" a new (service pack|set of RPMs) for the purposes of the test, but as long as those releases are publicly available, who cares? We all benefit from the improvement of the code.
  46. Does the test setup matter? by NickFortune · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Does the test setup matter? Apparently Veritest thought so. They spent some time tweaking both machines. It seems like the tweaks sped up windows and slowed down linux.

    I have to applaud the way you take a positive stance and look at how apache can be improved. I expect efforts in that direction form an ongoing part of apache development, but the positive attitude is appreciated. It's just a bit sad that your post reads as an endorsemnt of a blatant piece of paid-for propaganda

    --
    Don't let THEM immanentize the Eschaton!
  47. Figures by kelzer · · Score: 2, Informative

    They shut off access logging in IIS. As far as I could see, they left logging on for Red Hat. This means that lots of disk writes were being generated on Linux but not on Windows. As http request volume goes up in their tests, the RAID write-cache could eventually fill up (only under Linux), at which point the webserver starts blocking while waiting for disk I/O to complete.

    Figures that right after submitting this I see that they turned off access logging in Apache. Doh!

    --

    ---------------------------------------------
    SERENITY NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  48. not identical servers, identical BUDGETS by ChrisCampbell47 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    A real competition would give 2 (or more) teams identical budgets, not identical hardware. They would need to PAY all consultants at market rates. No free consultation from Microsoft (or Red Hat) R+D allowed, unless they are paid, and paid at market rates.

    The budget has to buy software, hardware and setup labor.

    This eliminates the problem of "that hardware favors Microsoft" or "that team had better engineers". It all comes down to money and value.

    Of course the competition would need to state up front exactly how performance would be measured and how the various different tasks (static pages, cgi, etc.) would be weighted to come up with any overall scores. That would dictate the design choices made by each team.

  49. I have a different approach. by khasim · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The "big players" can contribute cash, but not hardware. It is too easy for them to contribute hardware specifically enhanced for their product.

    #1. Each team gets X dollars and no restrictions on what it can buy. After all, that should be how businesses run their shops. We aren't comparing hardware, but total systems.

    #2. Each team must purchase the software off the shelf.

    #3. No team is allowed to recompile anything or to use any drivers, etc not available from a public server for the past 12 months. This might sound like a bad deal for Linux, but it will also stop Microsoft from re-writing the drivers. Again, most companies do not have access to that level of expertise so that won't be allowed.

    #4. Each tweak or configuration setting must be documented and a reference for it shown on a public website or manual. Again, businesses only know what they can read.

    #5. At the end of the competition, the other teams will critique each team's configuration. We've all seen the "tests" where Windows is running on a RAID 0 array which is beyond stupid for real production work.

    That way, each team can deploy the best system they can think of for the test. I'm sure you all remember MindCraft and their massive single server "test" for webservers when anyone else would have run multiple cheaper servers and gotten higher throughput.

    So, a test in run and the Windows team buys the biggest single system they can afford for the money. While the Linux team fields a dozen boxes booting from CD and one storage box.

    Which system would be "better"?

    Which system would be faster? Would that be the same answer under different loads?

    Which system would be easier to maintain?

    Which system would have higher uptime?

    Which system would be easier to scale up?