Slashdot Mirror
New York Taxis Will Go Hybrid
Jason Siegel writes "The New York Taxi and Limousine Commission (TLC) has approved the Clean Air Taxicabs Pilot Program Act, paving way for a hybrid car to be approved for NY taxi service by this fall. Soon, a large portion of New York's yellow cars will also be "green." According to the Coalition Advocating for Smart Transportation (CAST) poll, seven out of ten of the state's citizens support a switch to hybrids." New York might also reduce car pollution by loosening the rules for running a taxi, in order to reduce the need for private cars.
Now if they can only clean out the inside of the cars too.
kensavage knows more than god
Part of the fun of riding in taxis is being able to ride in a Police Interceptor. Nothing like going 0-60 in 5s while slipping into some godawful tight opening on the left lane on Fifth Avenue.
But this should be good. Hybrid vehicles really shine in urban congested traffic anyways (lots of stops and crawls)
There are a huge number of yeast infections in this county. Probably because we're downriver from the bread factory.
I've seen quite a few shiny new Prius taxis here in Vancouver with Yellow Cabs. I had a quick chat to one of the drivers and he said he didn't really care about the environment, it's that hybrids cost less to run when petrol gets expensive.
Great so it's good to know the taxi will run cleaner as the cab drivers misinterprets "34th and Lexington" for "Take me to Staten Island, and let's go through Queens!"
But do they really think that one city will change anything? I think this is a step in the right direction if everybody starts using more efficient/ less waste cars, but why make such a big deal over the first step?
Because it's a bit hard to take a second step before you've taken your first one?
Besides, this isn't the first such programme. Even in India, buses, taxis and rickshaws are required to use CNG, compressed natural gas, which is less poluting than traditional vehicle fuels.
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
well, NYC is the biggest city in the country.
NYC also has its share of gridlock and stop and start driving. isn't that the kind of driving that can be handled well by a hybrid? i realize the cabbies will have to be instructed on the techniques that optimize efficiency of a hybrid. when you spend your working hours driving a car around and when the high cost of gas effects your bottom line, you will probably do what you can to get that extra mileage.
at the same time it will help the rest of the population by lowering pollution.
The poll cited New York City residents only. Headline says NY state.
This story is really only about one city. Too bad, too. The effect would be much more drastic on a state level. I wouldn't mind seeing green taxis in Albany or Rochester, either.
10 Bits= $.25
100 Bits= $.50
110 Bits= $.75
1000 Bits= 1 byte
If they wanted to have cabs be better for the environment, they could start with having the drivers ware deodorant. Of course now I am excited about the smaller hybrids, that means the urine has smaller area to collect.
I found this to be particularly amusing
The actual story about NYC hybrid taxis is in an Austin, TX paper.
NYC could encourage this conversion to hybrids, which get better mileage, by offering rebates on other taxes on the hybrids, making them up by increasing them on the nonhybrids in taxi fleets. Maintaining the total tax collected, but distributed to favor the hybrids. Including the gas savings (50%) on gas, which is about $2.60:gallon in NYC these days (including other taxes), such a move could convert most of the 13K cabs clogging the streets with filth. Once a critical mass was achieved, including garage mechanics with mostly hybrid skills, the city could drop the regime.
I'll be suggesting this approach to the NYC City Council "Technology" committee that I advise. It would help for New Yorkers (and others) to send constructive comments supporting this move to the committee Chair, Councilmember Brewer. Politicians, especially in the City, love to get public support for specific initiatives, especially when the ball is already rolling like it is with the TLC.
--
make install -not war
Because if you don't make a big deal over the first step there might not be a second. Like the first time your little child successfully uses the toilet all by him or herself, you make a big deal over it. See?
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
1) Taxi Meddalions (the license to operate a taxi) can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. I think I remember reading that one sold a few years ago for over $350,000.
2) The people driving the taxis, they don't look like the wealthy type.
They should deregulate all taxis. Maybe prices would fall if there was free competition. I know, on days I am short on money, I would like to slap a taxi sign on my car and drive down to the airport. A couple hours later, I would have enough money to go back to the bar.
And I love the idea of green friendly cars. I think it is a step in the right direction. But what would be better than legislation is a green friendly car that gets 60+ mpg and has a sticker price of around $9,000. They would sell like hotcakes (which I think the Geo did for a while).
Will we get a cheap green car? I think we will, but probably not from Ford, GM, or Chrysler. I bet it will come from a hyundi or some asian car. The most attractive thing about a green friendly car is the MPG it gets, which appeals to people who don't want to get raped at the gas pumps. Unfortunatly, those people are not the ones buying $50,000 SUV's, they are the ones in economy sized cars.
Lower the price, and everyone will be buying them.
Rosco: "If brains were gunpowder, Enos couldn't blow his nose."
AKA, there's over 8 million people in the area, and from the FA there are over 50,000 cabs, and considering how often cabs spend time idoling in traffic (hybrids power down when stuck in traffic, which is why city MPG are often higher than highway, unlike every other car), just the reduction of cab produced smog alone would be worth every penny. Considering the MPG, most cab companies would save money over the long run.
The grass is only greener, if you don't take care of your own lawn.
A lot of other cities have public transportation running on propane, etc. Many international cities have seen a lot of cut back in pollution just by switching the public transportation to a more environment friendly energy source.
What does your Credit Report look like?
This isn't just "one city". This is New York City. The biggest in the country (don't give me any BS about LA, which isn't a city at all, but a county, a mutant suburb). Clogged with cars, though few New Yorkers own one. When you get the equivalent of 24K cars to stop pumping filth into the air, especially in the 26 sq mi of Manhattan, you're taking back breathing for about 10M people. That's a big change. Even if no one else ever follows our lead, we're better off - which is what we care about in NYC: doing right by ourselves first.
But others will follow. Not only does our size set the pace for lots of other cities, globally, but we're smart. When we figure out how to do things, we do it right, and others follow us. If you don't know why NYC is a "big deal", you haven't been here, or you don't know the meaning of the words "big" or "deal".
--
make install -not war
For those of you who don't live in New York City, you may be interested to know that it can cost upwards of $750,000 to obtain a licence/emblem to operate a yellow-cab. The licenses are actually physical emblems which are welded to the hood of the cab, and if you don't have one of those emblems, you can't paint your cab yellow without it getting impounded. As I understand it, the emblems are minted in a manner similar to how a coin or a police badge is minted.
Anyhow, the city has put a cap on the number of cabs which can operate in Manhattan (something like 200,000 cabs, I think), in part just by not minting and selling any new emblems. The law of supply-and-demand has, naturally, driven the cost of licenses up. Interestingly, a cab emblem is considered a piece of real-estate, as I understand, and can be placed in a will. Furthermore, they're considered suitable collateral for taking out a mortgage or loan similar to a home-equity loan. As I understand it, a motivated cabbie can earn a couple hundred thousand dollars a year. And, as you would expect in such a situation, there have formed many cab-companies which try to gobble up all the emblems that they can and hire imigrant drivers who earn a fraction of the profit they make, the rest going to the owners of the cab companies.
Naturally, there are other limosine and cab services which operate in the city. But they don't get to paint their cars yellow.
Anyhow, the moral of the story is that this is a huge decision, involving what I suspect is a billion dollar industry. I don't know exactly how big the new york yellow-cab industry is, but it's real big. And there's lots of money involved in this decision.
That could very well be true, but thats hardly the only issue at play here.
Saving money on gasoline consumption, reducing our consumption of oil overall (We're gonna run out, sooner or later!), and reducing our pollution are all obviously good things with immediate benefits.
I'm not with the far-left environmentalist movement, but I do believe that our wasteful use of energy is something we need to deal with culturally.
I don't think the media is liberal. Its just a perception that people have because the news reporting doesn't always the viewer's own political views. The fact that both the left and right criticize the media for being biased would confirm this, at least anecdoctally.
By the way, if it wasn't for the green movement, pollution would be a much BIGGER problem than it is today. Thanks to many of the reforms implemented, we have stopped companies from totally wasting our rivers with dangerous contaminants, for example. There is a concept called "dont shit where you eat". I think that applies well here. The environment is certianly not the same way it was before we started becoming a heavily industrialized world. Something we should consider before just having knee-jerk reactions calling for more consumption.
hybrids power down when stuck in traffic, which is why city MPG are often higher than highway, unlike every other car
in-town driving is also a lot of stop-and-go, and regenerative braking helps out a lot in those situations as well.
Let's think about this for a minute: If we do nothing and the environmentalists turn out to be right, we're screwed. On the other hand, if we go ahead and reduce our pollution output and it turns out global warming doesn't exist, then we've merely wasted* money. I, for one, would rather be poor than dead.
*let alone the fact that it wouldn't even be a waste then -- reducing pollution via reducing fossil fuel use would have other benefits, such as allowing people with asthma to be able to breathe in the cities (and possibly stopping kids from contracting it in the first place), stopping acid rain, reducing dependence on foreign oil, etc.
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
You are off by a bit there .. As of 2004 emblems were selling for record amounts of 386,000 not quite the 750,000 you said and the number of taxicabs is set by law at 11,787, not quite the 200,000 upi claimed. No new taxi licenses have been issued for over half a century, making the taxicab medallion (which is merely an aluminum plaque bolted to the hood of each cab) the central symbol of the regulatory system.
Bad Panda! No Bamboo for you! In matters of importance ACs will not be responded to. Want to say something critical,OK
Some do buy used cars, police or otherwise. Others buy new cars. Then they spend big bucks upgrading them to spec. Cabbies have told me it cost them anywhere from $10-25K upgrading cars.
I don't think that hybrids cost $20K more than their non-hybrid competition. If gasguzzling cabs get something like 10MPG, the way I do in NYC traffic (in my 25MPG highway car), and gas is $2.50:gallon, that's $0.25:mile. $10K is 40K miles, which cabs probably do in 6 months. So even a $20K premium on a hybrid (which doesn't exist) is repaid in a year. Cabs seem to stay on NYC streets for about 5 years, so that's a 4:1 payback, of a significant investment (again, assuming the investment is anything like that large - otherwise it's a much higher rate of return on a small investment).
Then consider the halved refueling downtime, among NYC's scattered gas stations and fleet garages, and the money is really compelling. Since NYC pays for lots of services related to gas consumption (fuel transport regulation, asthma healthcare, etc), it's got its own financial stake. Then consider the less-direct savings, in breathable air, less-dirty buildings, less dependence on foreign oil, and hybrids are the way to go.
--
make install -not war
I'm not even sure if this deserves a response, but...
. php
1) source? you really shouldn't quote numbers without a link.
2) data manipulation? what about the rest of the US.? you know, the part closer to the north pole?
3) do your fucking research! It is NOT very possible that we are coming out of a mini ice age. In fact, almost all scientists (especially those not employed by polluting industries) agree that this is not the case. You may have been misinformed by media that often quote radical scientists when trying to present a "balanced" report:
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1978
4) You believe that science should provide proof that greenhouse gases cause global warming?
How about all the information here: http://unfccc.int/essential_background/items/2877
Oh that's right, you're going to say that we shouldn't trust the UN, even if these reports are published by the top scientists in the world? Well, didn't you take high school chemistry? Anyone with knowledge of simple chemistry will tell you of the potential dangers of green house gases. (yes, i say potential here to be diplomatic -- see #7)
5) you like to separate yourself from "environmentalists", because you obviously don't care about the long-term environment, and would rather have cheap prices today than do your part in keeping the world safe for future generations? that's selfish and narrow minded.
6) ahh..environmentally-friendly liberal media. do you just like throwing around these sayings, because you've heard them so many times they must be true? are you really that stupid to fall into partisan name-calling tactics? anyway, in terms of environmentalism, the media is actually biased against environmentalism (see above link).
7) even IF we are at the end of a mini ice age (which is highly unlikely), you still must recognize the possible devastating effects of our continued release of so many green house gases into the atmosphere, and should especially be in favor of economically-friendly initiatives.
8) I'm not sure why you chose this forum to voice your support of Bush, and ignorance towards the Kyoto agreement. This story was about taxi drivers who drive environmentally-friendly cars because it is ultimately cheaper for them, hence invalidating your claim that environmentally-friendly products cost the consumer more.
9) There ARE environmentally-friendly solutions that are also economically beneficial. In fact, this is really the best way to get industries to act in the environment's (and hence, in OUR) best interest. Simple examples include environmentally-aware heating and air-conditioning, like placement of the windows, or having heat ducts near the floor instead of near the ceiling. More complex examples generally involve symbiotic relationships with our environment to utilize a renewable or recyclable resource.
10) Please leave your politics at the door, and before responding to an article with your bias, research the topic. Forget everything you think you know, and take a fresh look at the information available. It will only make you a smarter person.
So what's the big deal? I saw THOUSANDS of green taxis in Mexico City last time I was there. They all appeared to be made by volkswagen. And from the looks of them, they have had them there for many years!
i m_results/index_files/TextMostly/Slide13.html
Good pictures here: http://www.manganese.com/presentations/2004_inter
I guess NY is just catching up with the rest of the world now???
I thought that hybrids were only efficient for highway driving, but not so great for stop-and-start traffic
Wrong. Hybrids use regenerative braking, to recover the energy of motion when you stop. That reduces the energy wasted by starting & stoping.
But regerative braking makes no difference on a highway where you don't normally stop.
Of course, hybrids tend to have small gas engines and be fuel efficient in other ways, which helps on the the highway. But the big advantage is for start & stop driving.
and that "leadfoot" drivers also further reduce the efficiency (since the internal combustion engine is never shut down that way).
Leadfoot drivers always get worse mileage, for any vehicle.
"Short trips KILL gas mileage." Isn't that what taxis do all day? Make lots of short trips?
Correct. But a hybrid will waste much less energy on a short trip than a regular car.
AKA (All Kidding Aside) abbreviations can have more than one meaning. If it did those folks at the American Kennel Association, Alpha Kappa Alpha, American Kitefliers Association, would need to find other ways of shortening their names.
Also, AKA is a lot simplier to type than "Away From Keyboard". IMHO, a good test of intellegence is the ability to understand the context of the message when you don't understand every word. For example memes initially grow not because they are listed somewhere or even used exactly as previously defined, but becuase people 'get' the context.
I am sorry you didn't get it.
The grass is only greener, if you don't take care of your own lawn.
There should be national support and a firm deadline for the conversion of all public service vehicles to hybrid technology. Something along the lines of "all hybrid by 2008" .
With respect to hybrid, there should be no reason why fleet vehicles that are either fully owned or subsidized by local governments are not already on a program with an equally agressive posture. Most of us in the USA already see some kind of eBus or hybrid vehicle presence in daily use for public rapid transport. They are still so novel that I take the time to notice and admire that this is one more step in the right direction. I'm not referring to the overhead "bumper car" style electric busses or trolleys, but the true free-drive busses used for inner city and rural public transport. What I'm proposing is the conversion of the entire fleet in every American city, and a deadline to back it up.
I know the article is about taxicabs, but if owner-operators can make the leap in New York, why can't it work also on the national level as a mandate for the conversion of all public service vehicles? The sheer number of vehicles sold should be incentive enough for all auto manufacturers that have (or will have) a hybrid vehicle in their lineup to become involved in garnering support from appointed public officials and their constituents.
How can a complete conversion of fleet vehicles, especially public service inner city or rural transportation, not make sense everywhere? People will still have their SUVs and QuadCabs as a means to get around for personal transport, and rightly so. However, when you choose to ride public transport - school busses included - you would do so on a vehicle that was part of a comprehensive national fuel conservation and toxic emissions reduction agenda.
The poster claims: Soon, a large portion of New York's yellow cars will also be "green."
... Eighteen of the licenses were sold, at an average price of $222,743, one-third less... "
I would counter with an article I read in June in the Times:
In summary, the only push for green taxis so far has been a trio of operators who purchased discount medallions from the city and then couldn't use them b/c there were no hybrids approved as taxis.
Hybrid Taxis Encounter Catch-22 Of Regulation
By SEWELL CHAN (NYT) 989 words
Late Edition - Final , Section B , Page 1 , Column 5
"Last October, New York City officials held a special auction of 27 heavily discounted taxi medallions that could be used only with cabs powered by natural gas or by a combination of gasoline and electricity.
The infrastructure invested in the current NYC yellow taxi fleet, which happens to be almost exclusively Ford Crown Victoria, is not small. Savings on Petrol will not offset the costs of changing vehicles and support infrastructure. While the poster says "soon", I don't see "a large portion" of cabs going green before 2010.
Corporations which cause a lot of pollution would be hurt by added environmental requirements, since they would have to pay to upgrade their factories, use more expensive techniques, etc.
... innovate in the areas of energy efficiency.
:(
But, you are absolutely right that this will also create new industries which produce such environmentally-friendly equipment, etc.
What I think the corporations need to do is
Getting back to the hybrid topic, Toyota is a great example of this. In 1993 (I think) they announced their "Earth charter", which lead to the creation of their hybrid engine. The goal of the project was explicitly to design an environmentally-friendly car. And now it looks like it's paying off for them, big time. In 2000 they announced the beginning of their "New Earth Charter", in which they are researching not just ways to make a car that operates cleanly, but new manufacturing techniques to make it more friendly to build and ways to improve disposal. It sounds like they're really putting a lot of effort into it.
Some more details.
Meanwhile, car companies here in America are innovating in entirely different directions.
Which is what a diesel is good at. An idling diesel uses next to no fuel, whereas an idling petrol just drinks the stuff down.
PocketGamer.org - For the gamer on the go!
According to the NYC dept of city planning the Census Bureau believes that there were in 8,104,079 people in the five boroughs of NYC as of July 2004.
The grass is only greener, if you don't take care of your own lawn.
This is America. We have a god given right to use expensive polluting gasoline and I'll be damned if anyones gonna stop me!
Also, the fact that the 10 inch loss in leg room is such a big deal just shows that we need to lose weight.
Yeah, because losing weight will shorten your legs, and also miniaturizes suitcases.
Do hybrids actually mean less total emissions? Or just less at the tailpipe?
Electric cabs that hence make no noise as they approach? Have you guys ever seen NY cabbies drive?
Talk about silent but deadly!
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
I think the biggest obstacle getting hybrid taxis on the road is the lack of taxi-sized cars with hybrid engines. I was in New York last year and their cabs have quite a few safety mods for the driver and passenger.
For instance, there's a wall between the driver and the passenger side of the cabin. That's going to be pretty tough to squeeze into any car smaller than a Crown Vic.
This is a problem specific to New York cabs. And loosening up the specs for taxis may not be the answer -- they were put there for a reason.
This won't be a problem in cities like Toronto and Vancouver, where the Prius can already be seen ferrying around people.
The only two large(r) sedans that have hybrid engines are the Prius and the Accord. If the big three were smart, they'd build a hybrid engine for small trucks with their Japanese partners to lower development costs (Ford/Mazda, Chrysler/Mitsubishi, GM/Toyota) and stick those suckers in the Crown Vic/500, Magnum/300 and the Impala/Regal.
--- Dan
The newer Prius models (the hatchbacks that look like a CRX done over for a sci-fi movie) share the mass production lines for the most part, they surely don't cost $40,000 to make. Toyota was asked to estimate how much the hybrid system added to the cost of the Prius for U.S. tax purposes. The figure they came up with was $2k to $3k. Whether that is a reflection of the actual cost at this moment, it is certainly their target.
As far as why hybrids don't already run cab service in NYC, if your RTFA you'll notice that none are yet approved for it by the regulatory commission. Of course since everything is corrupt and mismanaged, what hybrids get approved will probably end up being a story of bribes, kickbacks, and political favors rather than technological suitability.
Someone had to do it.
Taxi's are regulated because you want people to feel safe getting into a complete stranger's car. I think if Taxi's weren't regulated many, many people would be afraid to use them. Further, it would destroy the taxicab industry, as no one would be able to afford to be a taxicab driver fulltime as during busy seasons they'd be in line with 50,000 unemployed people trying to make a buck and during sparse periods they'd have to haggle the price of a cab down to virtually no profit.
"I would like to slap a taxi sign on my car and drive down to the airport. A couple hours later, I would have enough money to go back to the bar." - I wouldn't want to get in your car, and you don't even have any mischevious intentions."
I've thought about this and I think that the idea hybrid car would have the following features.
-Reasonable price
-diesel powered
Why?
Well diesel engines only require slight modification to run biodiesel. Biodiesel is a net zero gain carbon fuel.
By this I mean that it's produced from organic crops so the carbon released is mearly absorbed by the next generation of fuel still in the fields.
The USA currently pays farmers $30 billion dollars to not grow crops. Why not pay them to grow Rape Seed and Soy so that the country can create an abundance of Bio-Diesel fuel.
The side advantage is that once the USA became less dependant on the oil of the middle east we would not have to be involved in middle east politics. Without our oil money the middle east would lose it's entire power base.
If we were really smart we would create a Hybrid car that used a sterling engine which is about 2x as effecient as internal combustion engines at extracting fuel power.
Sterling engines are what power nuclear subs. They only problem with Sterling Engines are that they tag 5 min or so to heat up and get miximum efficiency. With a hybrid car this is a moot problem because you can operate on battery power for the first 5 minutes.
Read more about this here:
http://www.hybrid-car-reviews.com/
Laugh at my ignorance while I learn Rails - a Real ne
And 70 miles a day, every day, is a LOT for most people. Yes, I know SoCal people do a lot of miles commuting daily. But most people don't. My current commute is 8 miles each way. 70 miles per week more like it. And when it's not 98 degrees, or snowing, I usually ride my bike. Unlimited mpg...:)
I'm not saying saving gas and emissions is a bad thing, or something not to be sought. Far from it. But if we're going to do these calsulations, we have to actually look at the numbers that pop out. All of them.