New York Taxis Will Go Hybrid

Jason Siegel writes "The New York Taxi and Limousine Commission (TLC) has approved the Clean Air Taxicabs Pilot Program Act, paving way for a hybrid car to be approved for NY taxi service by this fall. Soon, a large portion of New York's yellow cars will also be "green." According to the Coalition Advocating for Smart Transportation (CAST) poll, seven out of ten of the state's citizens support a switch to hybrids." New York might also reduce car pollution by loosening the rules for running a taxi, in order to reduce the need for private cars.

Comments

FP!

[Anonymous Coward]

NY HYBRID TAXIS ARE DYING>

Lameness filter encountered. Post aborted!
Reason: Don't use so many caps. It's like YELLING.

Lameness filter encountered. Post aborted!
Reason: Don't use so many caps. It's like YELLING.

Lameness filter encountered. Post aborted!
Reason: Don't use so many caps. It's like YELLING.

A step in the right direction

[Grep*coke*]

But do they really think that one city will change anything? I think this is a step in the right direction if everybody starts using more efficient/ less waste cars, but why make such a big deal over the first step?

Re:A step in the right direction

[WIAKywbfatw]

But do they really think that one city will change anything? I think this is a step in the right direction if everybody starts using more efficient/ less waste cars, but why make such a big deal over the first step?

Because it's a bit hard to take a second step before you've taken your first one?

Besides, this isn't the first such programme. Even in India, buses, taxis and rickshaws are required to use CNG, compressed natural gas, which is less poluting than traditional vehicle fuels.

Re:A step in the right direction

[johnpaul191]

well, NYC is the biggest city in the country.
NYC also has its share of gridlock and stop and start driving. isn't that the kind of driving that can be handled well by a hybrid? i realize the cabbies will have to be instructed on the techniques that optimize efficiency of a hybrid. when you spend your working hours driving a car around and when the high cost of gas effects your bottom line, you will probably do what you can to get that extra mileage.
at the same time it will help the rest of the population by lowering pollution.

Re:A step in the right direction

[ScrewMaster]

Because if you don't make a big deal over the first step there might not be a second. Like the first time your little child successfully uses the toilet all by him or herself, you make a big deal over it. See?

Re:A step in the right direction

[ericspinder]

But do they really think that one city will change anything?

I don't know if you have spent any time in NYC, but, man, its like HUGE.

AKA, there's over 8 million people in the area, and from the FA there are over 50,000 cabs, and considering how often cabs spend time idoling in traffic (hybrids power down when stuck in traffic, which is why city MPG are often higher than highway, unlike every other car), just the reduction of cab produced smog alone would be worth every penny. Considering the MPG, most cab companies would save money over the long run.

Re:A step in the right direction

[Doc Ruby]

This isn't just "one city". This is New York City. The biggest in the country (don't give me any BS about LA, which isn't a city at all, but a county, a mutant suburb). Clogged with cars, though few New Yorkers own one. When you get the equivalent of 24K cars to stop pumping filth into the air, especially in the 26 sq mi of Manhattan, you're taking back breathing for about 10M people. That's a big change. Even if no one else ever follows our lead, we're better off - which is what we care about in NYC: doing right by ourselves first.

But others will follow. Not only does our size set the pace for lots of other cities, globally, but we're smart. When we figure out how to do things, we do it right, and others follow us. If you don't know why NYC is a "big deal", you haven't been here, or you don't know the meaning of the words "big" or "deal".

Re:A step in the right direction

[The Amazing Fish Boy]

but why make such a big deal over the first step?

Neil Armstrong: "This is one small step for man... Aw, now then why am I even opening mah big yap in the first place?"

Re:A step in the right direction

[lordkuri]

hybrids power down when stuck in traffic, which is why city MPG are often higher than highway, unlike every other car

in-town driving is also a lot of stop-and-go, and regenerative braking helps out a lot in those situations as well.

Re:A step in the right direction

[bumptehjambox]

When you get the equivalent of 24K cars to stop pumping filth into the air

Oh come off it now! Maybe if New Yorkers didn't fancy taxis made of gold bringing them about they'd all use the damn subway!

Re:A step in the right direction

[Anonymous Coward]

Why did you bring up LA? There is an LA city and an LA county, but the city is much smaller in population than New York, and while the county is slightly more populous than NYC I'm sure is has only a small percentage of the taxis of New York.

Now, the largest city in the USA is Juneau, Alaska, with an area of 3081 square miles. The people there are the ones who might argue with you.

Re:A step in the right direction

[Mike Schiraldi]

Exactly -- New Yorkers rarely notice that there's a "rest of the country" out there, and if the project makes sense here, that's all that matters. Who cares whether or not these alleged "other cities" follow suit?

Re:A step in the right direction

[Doc Ruby]

Look, the taxis just match the streets, which are paved with gold. That's why the subways are all so empty all the time, right?

Maybe if Governor Pataki would make his MTA, which runs the subways, finish some new stations, or lines, or just connections between the stations, the midtown congestion wouldn't leave so much of the rest of the system bottlenecked into underuse. Hell, maybe if they had more than a few cleaning cars scrubbing the tracks, so they weren't like high-voltage rollercosters through a sewer, more people would be willing to wait on the piss-soaked platforms. Or if the stations could tell you where are the cars on their way, like on the maps, people could know which train and route to take, rather than the frantic guesses in the split-seconds before the doors slam shut. This is 2005: we should be able to hit the MTA website, even on our smartphones, and get the realtime best route between any two points, accounting for congestion and delays. Instead, we've got a signaling system from 1937.

Maybe if Pataki, Mayor Bloomberg, or MTA Chairman Kalikow were required to take the subways to work, they'd fix them. Chicago requires it's transport chief to actually drive a bus for one month every year, and it's not notoriously filthy, dangerous and unpredictable.

Re:A step in the right direction

[_Shorty-dammit]

AKA? Sorry, but AKA stands for Also Known As, and I'm sure this isn't what you meant.

Re:A step in the right direction

[Mike Schiraldi]

Mayor Bloomberg famously does take the subway to work.

Re:A step in the right direction

[ericspinder]

AKA? Sorry, but AKA stands for Also Known As, and I'm sure this isn't what you meant.

You must be new here.

AKA (All Kidding Aside) abbreviations can have more than one meaning. If it did those folks at the American Kennel Association, Alpha Kappa Alpha, American Kitefliers Association, would need to find other ways of shortening their names.

Also, AKA is a lot simplier to type than "Away From Keyboard". IMHO, a good test of intellegence is the ability to understand the context of the message when you don't understand every word. For example memes initially grow not because they are listed somewhere or even used exactly as previously defined, but becuase people 'get' the context.

I am sorry you didn't get it.

Re:A step in the right direction

[otis wildflower]

Maybe if Pataki, Mayor Bloomberg, or MTA Chairman Kalikow were required to take the subways to work, they'd fix them.

Bloomberg does, and Pataki's beholden to the same forces that rape NYC each and every year when it comes to state tax drainage so he can safely be expected to not give a shit.

However, I'm in agreement about Kalikow et al. IMHO every MTA employee, from the car cleaners to the board of directors, should be required to live in the five boros and take at least 1 form of MTA mass transit to and from work each day.

Then again, they'd just move to Riverdale and buy a nice express bus company...

Re:A step in the right direction

[Doc Ruby]

Maybe he did, when he was running his finance-district company. Or when he was running for election, or when trying to consolidate his victory image. Or maybe you're thinking of his Dep't of Transportation chief, who got press when they started for straphanging, though I'm not sure how long that lasted, either. No, I've seen Bloomberg getting into his convoy of black SUVs, like every other political bigwig in town. And I have no reason to believe otherwise, without a recent citation to the contrary.

Re:A step in the right direction

[Doc Ruby]

I remember Bloomberg's campaign propaganda subway rides, and his DOT chief, too. But is there any recent evidence that Bloomberg, or any of the rest of them, still do it, now that the cameras are off?

Re:A step in the right direction

[ViciousVII]

Besides, this isn't the first such programme. Even in India, buses, taxis and rickshaws are required to use CNG, compressed natural gas, which is less poluting than traditional vehicle fuels.

This is America. We have a god given right to use expensive polluting gasoline and I'll be damned if anyones gonna stop me!

Re:A step in the right direction

[poopdeville]

You were kidding when you said NYC was huge? I totally missed the context, because that "joke" was not funny. If you call that kidding, I fear for your children. You wouldn't happen to be an accountant or engineer, would you?

Re:A step in the right direction

[Anonymous Coward]

The main Seattle airport (Sea-Tac International) also requires a large percentage of the taxis and buses serving it to run on CNG. The only drawbacks are that there are only four 3000/3600 PSI pumping stations in the entire region (one by the airport, three way the hell out in other cities) and our ten-passenger vans only get about 180 miles before refueling.

Re:A step in the right direction

[ericspinder]

You must be new here, and this time, I'm not kidding. Man, you're like, dense. The conversational 'surfer' talk, implying that they did not understand this fact, was the kidding aspect of my OP. Few people on this earth (at least those on the Internet) would think that NYC was anything but HUGE (not of course compared to Mexico City), AKA was an attempt to jump into a thread in a reasonably polite manner.

You 'sir' need fewer math classes and more time in the Pub.

If you call that kidding, I fear for your children.

Let's put this so you may be able to clearly understand... I have a child you bastard, and I am a responsible adult with a *real* job. Quite frankly, one you'd be happy to have 10 years from now. If you that 'greatly fear' anything you don't understand immediately, you should never step out of your dirty, dank, laundry filled, rotten pizza boxed, dorm room, the real world takes a little more thought.

Re:A step in the right direction

[poopdeville]

Care to make any more assumptions about me?

PS -- your "joke" still sucked. Remember, this is slashdot. Stating the obvious is modded "insightful" here. People say stupid shit in earnest. And you gave no reason to suspect you're not a moron. My joke got a rise out of you. That was sweet.

Re:A step in the right direction

[skids]

Hybrids do really well in start and stop driving. Well at the very least, the Prius does -- I don't know about others. How well depends on whether they idle off and run on battery only or whether they keep the motor running and just use the battery for power boosts.

The way cabbies step on it, though, they'd better select a damn durable hybrid to handle NYC cab duty.

As far as "how much difference will that make," probably not a huge amount on a global scale, but considering the high percentage of cars on the street that are cabs, and that jogging a mile in NYC is roughly equivalent to smoking a pack of cigarrettes, locally I'm sure the reduced pollution and noise level will make a difference in NYC. It will still be a craphole and I won't want to ever go there again even for a visit, but at least there will be less "curb butter."

Re:A step in the right direction

[danharan]

I think you meant "idling" :)

Re:A step in the right direction

[ericspinder]

People say stupid shit in earnest.

Is that an appology, it's too vague, but you are right, you do say stupid shit.

My joke got a rise out of you. That was sweet.

You 'sir' have NO idea what a joke is. Why don't you do the world a favor and imitate one of the more dangerous "jack ass" stunts. I'd suggest riding a shopping cart down a steep hill. A nice twist would be to do it in traffic, now that would be *sweet*.

your "joke" still sucked.

I'll agree that it wasn't my best post, but the content is good, and adds to the discussion, which is generally the idea of most posts, however 'noise makers' such as yourself, can be fun to burn off a little aggression with. It's Saturday night and I'm stuck in my office (the one with a door, thank you), working with idiots (likely with worthess undergrad math degrees). The good thing is that I am just attached temporarily to that project. Don't worry, I'll flex out this time in a couple of weeks, perhaps I'll work from home a couple of days. Thanks for playing.

Re:A step in the right direction

[ericspinder]

No, actually I did mean Idoling, sitting around waiting for America's next great Karaoke star to need a ride.

(thanks)

Re:A step in the right direction

[poopdeville]

You're obviously an illiterate. Good bye.

Re:A step in the right direction

[poopdeville]

Such biting wit. You're obviously a bitter, humourless old man. I pray your child doesn't end up like you. You're not getting a rise out me, no matter how childish your remarks. Good bye.

Re:A step in the right direction

[ericspinder]

You're not getting a rise out me, no matter how childish your remarks.

I believe that I just did. How *sweet*.

I pray your child doesn't end up like you.

A word of real advice, don't talk about people's children, parenting skills, or mother. Go out and get a fucking beer, you need it.

Re:A step in the right direction

[Anonymous Coward]

Theres a good reason not to use the subway, NYC's underground rail system is just as vulnerable to terrorism as London's...

Re:A step in the right direction

[Doc Ruby]

Moderation +3
60% Insightful
20% Troll
20% Interesting

TrollMod, you talkin' to me? You talkin' to me? You talkin' to me? Then who the hell else are you talkin' to? You talkin' to me? Well, I'm the only one here. Who do the fuck do you think you're talking to? Oh, yeah? Ok.
[whips out sleeve gun]
Huh?

Re:A step in the right direction

[murphj]

He still takes the subway to work every morning.

Don't you think the press would have a field day if he'd stopped? Asked after the speech whether he would take the subway to City Hall like Bloomberg if elected mayor, the Upper East Side resident hesitated.

In fact, he got stuck last year.

Re:A step in the right direction

[mr100percent]

I thought he famously called 311 often to complain about potholes.

Re:A step in the right direction

[Doc Ruby]

That articles only has a question for Miller asking if he'd "take the subway every morning like the mayor".

The article about him being stuck also mentions only that he was taking the subway to "an event". That blog also has a story from this past week with Bloomberg taking the subway to comment as his response to the London subway bombings last week. Bloomberg clearly takes the subway sometimes, but the ones we know about are photo-ops for the media.

He's the most media-savvy mayor ever (his billions come from his media corporation, including a TV and radio network). And the press about which he's savvy is the least politician-savvy media ever. Far from implicit that he's still taking the subway to work every morning, it's much safer to assume that without citing a specific fact, that fact doesn't exist. With all the important screwups and crimes by major politicians these days getting whitewashed or ignored daily in the press, I expect that they merely print PR. Especially star-dazzled local blogs, and reporters hardballing the challenger in the upcoming election.

However, I am having dinner with someone on the NY City Council this evening. I will find out whether Bloomberg really does take the subway regularly, often, or just for the cameras.

Re:A step in the right direction

[Mike Schiraldi]

"In fact, it is well-known in the city that Mayor Michael Bloomberg rides the subway every day."

Mike: "First thing every morning, I wake up and go jogging before I take the subway to work."

"The mayor, who takes the subway from his upper East Side home to City Hall..."

Re:A step in the right direction

[Rudeboy777]

That's not remotely a good reason. Your chances of dying that way are slimmer than by shark attack or lightning strike.

Re:A step in the right direction

[Anonymous Coward]

> TrollMod, you talkin' to me? You talkin' to me? You talkin' to me?
> Then who the hell else are you talkin' to? You talkin' to me?

If you don't know why NYC is a "big deal", you haven't been here, or you don't know the meaning of the words "big" or "deal".

Yeah, I suspect he is.

Re:A step in the right direction

[Doc Ruby]

I asked the council staffer I know, and he says Bloomberg does take the subway to City Hall frequently. Then he gets driven around the City during his daily itinerary. So we're both right, but he does get to see all the NYC traffic/commute problems firsthand. He therefore has no excuse of ignorance for allowing the subways to suck as bad as they do.

*cough cough*

[kensavage]

Now if they can only clean out the inside of the cars too.

Part of the fun of riding in taxis

[HungWeiLo]

Part of the fun of riding in taxis is being able to ride in a Police Interceptor. Nothing like going 0-60 in 5s while slipping into some godawful tight opening on the left lane on Fifth Avenue.

But this should be good. Hybrid vehicles really shine in urban congested traffic anyways (lots of stops and crawls)

Re:Part of the fun of riding in taxis

[JeffTL]

Rest assured that Ford will probably come out with a Crown Vic Hybrid if this becomes a popular idea. Or more likely, a Five Hundred Hybrid, since they appear to be wanting to get all their large cars on the Volvo platform.

Re:Part of the fun of riding in taxis

[Lagged2Death]

There's no reason that a hybrid design can't be faster than the non-hybrid version. The Honda Accord hybrid, for example, uses about the same engine as the standard V6 Accord, plus an electric motor. It's actually slightly quicker than the standard V6, and gets better mileage to boot.

And on the other hand, part of the nightmare of driving - or even walking, for that matter - in NYC is all the crazy rocket-propelled taxi cabs. A super-efficient and slow-ish cab design could make the city slightly quieter, cleaner, cheaper, and more pleasant.

Re:Part of the fun of riding in taxis

[wolrahnaes]

Part of the fun of riding in taxis is being able to ride in a Police Interceptor. Nothing like going 0-60 in 5s while slipping into some godawful tight opening on the left lane on Fifth Avenue.

As the owner of a Police Interceptor, I'd like to correct a few misconceptions you seem to have about this vehicle.

1. 0-60 is more like 7 seconds.
2. The P71 (Interceptor) is actually the second fastest Crown Vic. The High Performance Package (or LX Sport, depending on model year) is faster than the P71 because it does not have the tougher police rear suspension and often has lower rearend gears. Both can be identified by the dual exhaust though.

I like the idea of taxis going hybrid, but the problem is durability. The Crown Vics are a proven platform that is designed to have the living shit beaten out of it. Ford has shopped around the 500 Police Package, and every officer I've talked to hated it, just like almost every other FWD V6 attempt in this market (a.k.a. Limpala, Intrepid).

If Ford announces a hybrid Crown Vic though, I'd expect to see that quickly become the most popular hybrid on the roads, as long as the cost is reasonable enough that it will be recovered within the vehicle's lifetime.

Re:Part of the fun of riding in taxis

[Anonymous Coward]

Criticism of alternative fuel vehicles (mainly hybrids), which info I insterted at wikipedia, but it keeps being deleted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_vehicle

Especially in Europe, hybrid vehicles are seen with some suspicion. Many assume hybrids solely address the pollution issue, while refusing to conserve energy, which is a half-hearted approach against global warming.

Use of hybrid propulsion technology is often considered an exclusive solution for emission problems of SUV and full-sized car culture because of its higher price tag and it still wastes energy due to excessively large vehicle sizes (e.g. even the Prius is considered a big car by european standards). California Governor [[Arnold Schwarzenegger]]'s solicitation of hidrogen and hybrid powered [[Hummers]] has received negative publicity in the old continent because driving monster SUVs was considered meaningless, regardless of the propulsion used.

Instead, European car vendors follow a path of refining the traditional car to reduce [[fossil fuel]] consumption to 65MPG and beyond, using smaller internal combustion engines with a trend towards overall smaller vehicle sizes. Europe's choices are the modern small [[diesel]]s, which have enough power, good torque, high RPM and boast the highest efficiency of any internal combustion engine design. The inclusion of a particle filter drum and Euro-4 compliance reduces solid emissions dramatically. Such developments remove the need for auxillary electric propulsion in diesel-powered cars.

Economic pure diesel vehicles continue to conquer the european market, having reached an 50% share of all new sales as of mid-2005 and hybrids are practically unheard of. The International Engine of the Year 2005 award given to the Fiat MultiJet 1.3D underscores the continued viability of traditional and significantly cheaper internal combustion solutions against hybrid technologies.

The use of batteries for automotive power is controversial, because rechargeable batteries are an extremely inefficient form of power storage. A partially or fully electric-powered vehicle needs to haul heavy batteries, usually about weight of an extra adult passenger. This significant weight increase requires extra power from the engine due to increased friction, yet the batteries store juice for relatively short trips on full-electric cruise. The average internal combustion engine powered vehicle spends 2-4% of its onboard fuel reserve per 1000 kilometers to haul its own fuel stored in the tanks. This ratio is markedly worse in case of electric vehicles.

The onboard use of a large mass of batteries is also an environmental and safety issue. The cost to produce rechargeable batteries is very high when measured in terms of the raw materials used up, the energy used for the manufacturing process and the pollution caused by battery factories. Many battery ingredients, including lead, acids, cadmium and metal-hydrides are poisonous or harmful to humans and the environment, which causes problems in case of an accident. Responsible disposal at the vehicle' end-of-life is complicated and spent battery reprocessing plants are difficult to establish due to local green protests.

A hybrid vehicle's propulsion is more complicated than a traditional car's drive-train and costs significantly more to manufacture because of the need for two high performance motors in a single vehicle. The large investment is not warranted unless hybrid cars have a life expectancy much longer than internal combustion vehicles. Most cars reach end-of-life after 10 to 12 years due to design and technology obsolescence, regardless of continued road-going ability. Considering the amount of advanced technology implemented in hybrid vehicles, their lifecycles may be shorter than traditional cars'.

Re:Part of the fun of riding in taxis

[Shakrai]

The Crown Vics are a proven platform that is designed to have the living shit beaten out of it.

Except the rear end that is.

Re:Part of the fun of riding in taxis

[wolrahnaes]

Contrary to popular belief, the Crown Vic is no Pinto.

NHTSA closing report concludes:
The risk of fire in high-energy crashes of Police Interceptors is comparable to
similar passenger vehicles.
The crash energy levels associated with fuel tank failures in Police Interceptors
during rear impacts were significantly greater than federal or industry standards.
Fuel tank failures during high-energy rear impacts can result from numerous
causes.
There have been numerous highenergy
rear crashes involving Police
Interceptor vehicles with little or no
fuel loss and no fire.

CHP averages one Interceptor totalled per week in rear-end collisions. If the Crown Vic was a death trap like some want to believe, California would be losing officers at an alarming rate.

Re:Part of the fun of riding in taxis

[Shakrai]

If the Crown Vic was a death trap like some want to believe, California would be losing officers at an alarming rate.

I was being a wise ass. I have several friends in law enforcement (most of them New York State Troopers) and they all swear by the Crown Vic. The NYSP put out a request to GM and Chrysler some years ago to come up with another full sized RWD vehicle for police work but neither one of them responded. Given the fact that Chrysler sold out and GM didn't seem to be interested I'd assume that we'll see Crown Vics on the road for many years to come.

I've also had the privilege of driving the police interceptor and I'm a fairly big fan of it. If I wasn't a aging hippie liberal douche waiting for a cool American hybrid I'd seriously consider owing one. There's something to be said about RWD and it's a damn shame that it has largely been worked out of the market.

Rise of the Mutants!

[AndroidCat]

Most New York taxis were driven by mutants, and now the cars will match.

Re:Rise of the Mutants!

[kensavage]

hahaha true. WHy is that? Boston atleast has a nice mix of people.

Re:Rise of the Mutants!

[bumptehjambox]

Boston atleast has a nice mix of people.

Ah yes, rich snobbish college kid know-it-alls, slightly less rich snobby college kid know-it-alls, over-privileged white college kid know-it-alls and Berklee students.
(the latter may have been a bit redundant)

Re:Rise of the Mutants!

[Anonymous Coward]

And New York is bristling with young stuck-up yuppie women pretending to play out their Sex In The City fantasies and faux artistic intellectuals. New Yorkers as a whole have an incredible amount of egocentrism about their city that as far as I can tell is neither the center of the universe and doesn't offer a damn thing that any other major city doesn't.

What's your point?

So let's can the "Uhh, my city (penis) is bigger than yours!" crap, please.

Re:Rise of the Mutants!

[bumptehjambox]

But, it is bigger, and whats worse for you is my city penis is actually smaller than my country penis!

Vancouver as well, I think

[shut_up_man]

I've seen quite a few shiny new Prius taxis here in Vancouver with Yellow Cabs. I had a quick chat to one of the drivers and he said he didn't really care about the environment, it's that hybrids cost less to run when petrol gets expensive.

Re:Vancouver as well, I think

[pHatidic]

Our family owns a first generation Prius, and a couple weeks ago we ordered a second generation one to replace it (better crash test rating). It costs me less than 20 bucks to fill up the tank, whereas a comparable volvo would cost 45 bucks. When our battery eventually died after three years, Toyota replaced it for free under their good will program. When you combine the 50% gas savings with the tax rebate you get for buying it, this thing has saved us several thousand dollars.

Re:Vancouver as well, I think

[NardofDoom]

This is especially true as taxi drivers tend to be in the city more, where they can take advantage of the Prius' hybrid technology.

Re:Vancouver as well, I think

[ForestGrump]

Heh, similar to the reason my dad bought an Insight.

at 60-70 mpg (life avg 58 mpg, mostly city), the car nearly "paid for it's own insurance in gas savings"

Grump

Re:Vancouver as well, I think

[LWATCDR]

"When our battery eventually died after three years, Toyota replaced it for free under their good will program. "
But what happens when the good will runs out? New batteries are pretty expensive.
A gas civic gets 38 hiway and a VW jetta TDI gets 48. Where I am there is just not that much stop and go driving. In a city with lots of stop and go a Hybrid may be the best option but the battery costs make small pure gas and diesels a good option for a lot of locations.

Re:Vancouver as well, I think

[adavidw]

It's not a good will program, it's a warranty. The main Prius battery pack is covered for 8 years or 100,000 miles in the US. Or, in California or a few other states that use California emissions laws (CA, MA, ME, VT, NY) the hybrid battery is further covered by the California Emission Control Warranty out to 10 years or 150,000 miles.

Re:Vancouver as well, I think

[PhotoGuy]

But what happens when the good will runs out? New batteries are pretty expensive.

I worry about this, as well; for cars that yuppies will flip after two years, I guess it's not a problem (for the original buyer), but since these batteries will undoubtedly be very expensive to replace after any warrantees are up, I could see Prius and other hybrids being junked *far* earlier than a typical car, which could in the end be *worse* for the environment. (Rather like how many otherwise perfectly servicable laptops would still be around, but the cost of replacing a useless battery outweights the value of the laptop.)

Thoughts on this, anyone?

Re:Vancouver as well, I think

[pHatidic]

Well if the battery costs 2,000 dollars when installed by the dealer then the value of the car would have to be less than that to be not worth replacing. However I am willing to bet that you can order the battery for half the price and install it yourself. Or alternatively a lot of people will be totaling their Prius's, like any other car, so you can maybe salvage a functional battery for cheap from an otherwise dead car.

Re:Vancouver as well, I think

[Zackbass]

The original point still stands though, a modern car's expected lifetime is around 250,000 miles, especially for a Toyota. What happens to the car when the warranty done since the battery oviously fails quite reliably unlike other modern car parts. A modern car can often chug along for 250,000 miles (or much more if cared for) before it needs an engine or transmission.

Re:Vancouver as well, I think

[Anonymous Coward]

It costs me less than 20 bucks to fill up the tank, whereas a comparable volvo would cost 45 bucks.

What on earth does the size of the gas tank have to do with this?

Re:Vancouver as well, I think

[Nogami_Saeko]

Well, if the battery begins to wear-out, it will just mean that the internal combustion engine will be used more to compensate and keep things running.

The newer THS-II hybrid system that is in the 2004 and newer Prius models makes use of a redesigned battery pack that's far superior to the original (2003 and older) Prius systems. It should last for the life of the car according to Toyota.

I have absolutely no concerns about the battery pack wearing out in mine.

N.

Re:Vancouver as well, I think

[Beryllium Sphere(tm)]

The first Prius in cab service in Vancouver lived to 200,000 miles on the original battery. At that point Toyota bought it back for a teardown.

Prius owners have been watching for any indications of actual battery life. So far the replacements have been caused by accident damage and charging system malfunction. If the poster above could say more about what happened?

BTW always ask "which battery?". The 12V battery that runs the accessories and boots the high-voltage system seems to keel over with at least normal frequency.

Re:Vancouver as well, I think

[plutonium83]

The cost the fill up a tank is irrelevant to the mpg it gets. It could be that the volvo has a larger gas tank so it takes more gas.

Re:Vancouver as well, I think

[drew]

When my wife and I were looking to get a new car, we wanted to get a Prius, but the 2004's hadn't even been out for a few months yet, and every dealer we called told us there was a 6 month to a year waiting list.

So we bought a Corolla instead. It costs virtually the same to fill up the tank, it gets close to the same highway gas mileage (in fact it probably would get the same if it had the same low rolling resistance tires) and cost it us about $5,000 less than a comparably equipped Prius (minus sunroof) even if we could get our hands on one. And we'll never have to worry about replacing the batteries.

Also, the tax rebate is rapidly going down towards zero. And it's not a rebate, only a deduction. A lot of people got away with claiming the credit because the ruling was poorly worded early on, but in more recent years tax forms they added a line specifically stating that hybrid vehicles do not quilify for the tax credit.

Our Corolla is approaching 20,000 miles now, and I did the math a little while back and figured out that we would still be a very long way from making back the difference in price between the two cars in fuel savings. Of course, the amount of city driving we do is virtually negligible as neither my wife or I drive to work most days.

For something like a New York taxi cab, I think a hybrid car makes a lot of sense (although if New York cabbies drive anything like Chicago cabbies, I don't think that any available hybrid is going to have nearly enough power to meet the demands of the job), but I suspect very few ordinary drivers put on enough city miles to really save a lot of money by getting a Prius if you compare it to an equivalent non-hybrid vehicle.

Re:Vancouver as well, I think

[drew]

And it's not a rebate, only a deduction.

Oops. Strike that. I didn't notice which city you were talking about until after I posted. I have no idea what the tax rules regarding hybrid vehicles are in Canada- I only know that I've heard enough people here in the U.S. talk about getting a tax credit for buying an alternative fuel vehicle that it's become almost a habit of pointing out to them that hybrids don't qualify as an alternative fuel vehicle.

Re:Vancouver as well, I think

[TogusaS9]

I only know that I've heard enough people here in the U.S. talk about getting a tax credit for buying an alternative fuel vehicle that it's become almost a habit of pointing out to them that hybrids don't qualify as an alternative fuel vehicle.

Actually, the Toyota Prius does qualify for the US$2,000 alternative fuel vehicle credit -- in fact, the IRS document that certifies the Prius as qualifying for the credit can be found here:

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-news/ir-04-125.pdf

Re:Vancouver as well, I think

[Tomfrh]

You are denying a correlation between tank size and mileage?

Re:Vancouver as well, I think

[pHatidic]

UPDATE: I just talked to my parents, it was actually the small battery that died and not the big one. Apparently they don't make the small batteries anymore so they had to install a kit to mount a bigger one inside the car. Sorry for the confusion, two people already emailed me saying that had never heard of the battery failing before so I wanted to post an update so as not to give a needlessly bad impression of the car.

Re:Vancouver as well, I think

[Anonymous Coward]

Very well written. That is exactly the same series of events that most people I know of who were looking for a prius went through. They ended up with a corolla that gets nearly the same gas mileage and cost $5k less.

Unless you are a enviro-nut or spend most of your time sitting in traffic hybrids just aren't worth it right now. Hopefully the price difference between hybrid and regular cars will come down soon.

Re:Vancouver as well, I think

[clean_stoner]

All of that may be, however giving less money to the gas companies is reason enough for me. They are pure evil.

Re:Vancouver as well, I think

[Anonymous Coward]

Yah, that $3k federal tax rebate last year was pathetic. Practically nothing. Getting $2800 back from the IRS was horrible. :)

However, I wish some of these "hybrid" myths would start to go away now that they've been around for a while.

A Prius gets much better highway milage than a Corolla. I drive 35 miles to work every day on the highway (60-65 MPH) and tank after tank is 50-54 MPG. The only time my highway milage is lower than that is when driving 75-80 MPH on the interstate, and I can guarantee you that a Corolla doesn't get 42 MPG at 80 MPH.

However, when I'm driving around town on the weekend I watch the nice average I've built up during the week go down. The reason is that in city traffic I spend lots of time accelerating from light to light. However, when I get stuck in slowly moving traffic, it goes way up. But my experience is that MPG in the city is worse than on the highway. After 25000 miles, my overall average is 48.7 MPG (odometer / total gallons). The only way a Corolla will do that is if you coast down hill everywhere you go.

Also, the Prius DOES NOT have low rolling resistance tires. They are just standard cheap radials. Don't confuse a Civic with a Prius. That is probably why the word "hybrid" is a bad word to use. The Civic and Prius are vastly different. People hear a stastic that is specific to one or the other and then apply it to both.

That being said, you are correct that you will never earn your money back through the gas savings, unless you plan to drive a whole bunch of miles. I agree that hybrid cabs are a great idea. However, I bet that a cab driver in a Prius will only get 35-40 MPG (which is still a heck of a lot better than a V8 Lincoln).

Re:Vancouver as well, I think

[fourtyfive]

Hehe, I was about to post the exact same thing, The volvo probably has a 50% larger tank than the prius, thus it costs 50% more to fill up.

Re:Vancouver as well, I think

[drew]

You just reinforced my point. That document is talking about the clean fuel deduction, not the tax credit for alternative fuel vehicles. There is a huge difference between a $2000 tax deduction and a $2000 tax credit. The Prius is not an alternative fuel vehicle because 100% of it's power still comes from the gasoline engine.

Re:Vancouver as well, I think

[TogusaS9]

Point condeded. :)

You are correct in stating that the Prius, and other gas/electric hybrids, are not "alternative fuel vehicles" -- This page lists the various tax deductions for hybrids and other alternative fuel vehicles currently in effect in the US, and it does say that "hybrids are not eligible for the electric vehicle tax credit".

I have apparently made a bad assumption, for which I humbly apologize. -_-

Re:Vancouver as well, I think

[drew]

Where do you live that you got a $3000 tax rebate for buying a Prius? That's pretty nice. I looked up all of the information when I bought the Corolla and I would have qualified for a $1500 tax deduction, which is nothing to sneeze at, but probably would have made a difference of less than $500 in how much Federal taxes I paid last year.

I did just learn from a link in another response to my post that the IRS reinstated the original $2000 tax deduction for Priuses bought in 2004 or 2005. That makes the car slightly more appealing from a tax incentive standpoint, but not much.

It sounds like you've gotten slightly better than average gas mileage with your Prius from what I've heard. I certainly agree that the Prius gets better gas mileage than a Corolla, but I'm not so sure it's "much" better. The reports I've read tend to put the real world fuel efficiency of the Prius around 44-46 miles per gallon. I typically get about 36-38 in my Corolla. That's about 20% better, which is good, but nowhere near the 100% improvement the OP claimed for a comparable car, and not really enough to justify (to me at least) buying a much more expensive car with an unproven drivetrain. A new Corolla will quite likely make well past 150,000 miles without any major repairs. How long will a Prius last?

Re:Vancouver as well, I think

[Anonymous Coward]

A large majority of people do almost all their driving in heavy traffic. That's why traffic exists; that majority drive on the same roads at the same time.

Re:Vancouver as well, I think

[Anonymous Coward]

> Also, the Prius DOES NOT have low rolling resistance tires. They are just standard cheap radials. Don't confuse a Civic with a Prius. That is probably why the word "hybrid" is a bad word to use. The Civic and Prius are vastly different. People hear a stastic that is specific to one or the other and then apply it to both.

Right. They are both hybrid, but they use totally different systems. Toyota's is the one that can run off battery entirely, which just happens to give it much better numbers in the EPA tests than real world usage. Honda's is the one that cannot, and generates numbers that are closer to actual driving conditions. ;)

> A Prius gets much better highway milage than a Corolla. I drive 35 miles to work every day on the highway (60-65 MPH) and tank after tank is 50-54 MPG. The only time my highway milage is lower than that is when driving 75-80 MPH on the interstate, and I can guarantee you that a Corolla doesn't get 42 MPG at 80 MPH.

The hybrid setup itself gains you little to nothing at highway speeds. The only advantage is that you can make do with a smaller engine for accelerating, so you will use less fuel while cruising due to that. I wouldn't be too surprised to see the Corolla get 42mpg at 80mph. The EPA ratings are 32/41. The EPA ratings are not just straight cruising. Chances are good the car gets 45mpg or more when cruising at highway speeds, it's the stop/start acceleration that brings the mileage down to the levels you see.

Actual numbers from experience: My car is rated at 18/24. On cross-country drives, where I go through an entire tank of gas on the highway, I get 28mpg. This isn't cruising at 55mph, its a fairly aggressive driver doing 80-90mph, with lots of acceleration for passing. But without all of the start-stop acceleration you get in city driving that drags the mileage numbers down.

English?

[NightWulf]

Great so it's good to know the taxi will run cleaner as the cab drivers misinterprets "34th and Lexington" for "Take me to Staten Island, and let's go through Queens!"

Re:English?

[Doc Ruby]

Not really a mistake: I think that's "english", as in a crafty spin on a pool ball designed to score more points with a more complicated path. But on a meter, rather than into a pocket.

Correction:

[immel]

The poll cited New York City residents only. Headline says NY state.

This story is really only about one city. Too bad, too. The effect would be much more drastic on a state level. I wouldn't mind seeing green taxis in Albany or Rochester, either.

Re:Correction:

[greenhybrid]

Oops. Sorry about that. My mistake.

Re:Correction:

[TheKidWho]

Yeah because we already don't pay enough for taxis in rochester.

Re:Correction:

[BigBuckHunter]

I wouldn't mind seeing green taxis in Albany or Rochester, either

Yes, All five cabs operating in Albany.... Granted, if you count Schenectady and Troy, that brings the total up to 10 ;-)

The sad fact is that this is the government subsidizing private industry through our tax dollars. I don't want to pay for your ride in NYC, expecially if I live on the other side of the G-Dub or TPNZ. The subsidies also go only to the big fish (yellow and orange cabs) and not to the small private companies (including flat rate towncars).

BBH

Re:Correction:

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you kidding? Rochester is hardly big enough for normal taxis, much less hybrids. I think we only have them at the airport.

That, and Albany is even smaller.

roblimo ?

[Anonymous Coward]

What chance then that other drivers-for-hire -- such as slashdot editor roblimo -- may switch to hybrid vehicles?

Re:roblimo ?

[Anonymous Coward]

that's quite a loose usage of the word 'editor'!

environment

[mikejz84]

If they wanted to have cabs be better for the environment, they could start with having the drivers ware deodorant. Of course now I am excited about the smaller hybrids, that means the urine has smaller area to collect.

Re:environment

[Anonymous Coward]

or the asshole fares could learn to speak with good english so the cabbies don't get blamed for not understanding the mangled language of the average New Yorker.

To wit, wear, not ware. Also, the phrase 'be better' is hardly standard, though it is somewhat acceptable. What is unaccetable is the phrase 'with having the Or the asshole fares could learn to speak with good english so the cabbies don't get blamed for not understanding the mangled language of the average New Yorker. I don't know how they doing, judging from the general lack of manner shown by the posts.

To wit, wear, not ware. Also, the phrase 'be better' is hardly standard, though it is somewhat acceptable. What is unacceptable is the phrase 'with having the drivers'. Absolutely terrible. Not to mention that the next sentence is hardly a sentence.

Not generally a grammar nazi, but if one is going to throw stones...'. Absolutely terrible. Not to mention that the next sentence is hardly a sentence.

Not generally a grammer nazi, but if one is going to throw stones...

Re:environment

[mikejz84]

I think most New Yorks would responde to that not with that 'mangled language' but by mangling you.

week-old news.. americans like their space

[Animaether]

Read about it over a week back at CNN; http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science/07/01/green.t axis.ap/index.html

I found this to be particularly amusing :

The problem, explained commission chairman Matthew W. Daus, is that people like their cabs big, and hybrids do not have the legroom and large trunks of the fleet's current workhorse, an extra-long version of the Ford Crown Victoria.

Re:week-old news.. americans like their space

[Temporal]

Toyota sells an SUV hybrid (the Highlander). More larger cars will be fitted with hybrid engines soon enough. I even read a rumor that a hybrid Hummer is in the works. I'm sure the target market for such a vehicle is very excited -- both of them.

(I get my Prius on Wednesday! Woohoo!)

Re:week-old news.. americans like their space

[lheal]

I found this to be particularly amusing ... "...people like their cabs big..."

I live in the American Midwest, where we all drive our own cars everywhere. I don't take cabs much. When I do, I don't care how big they are, as long as they're clean and there.

I'd say it's the cabbies, who have to ride in them all day, who want the things big. And the cab companies, who want their vehicles to last more than a week. Nah, the companies probably don't care.

Maybe I'm wrong about all of it. Maybe most people would rather ride in the spacious rear cabin of a land yacht than in the cramped back seat of an econobox.

Personally, I'd rather drive.

Re:week-old news.. americans like their space

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, duh. Independent of other considerations, anybody would want more space.

Would people be willing to __pay__ for that extra space, though? Maybe. Nothing wrong with having both types of taxis available, and letting people choose which ones they prefer. If the hybrid taxis really are more efficient, the taxi companies would be switching to them on their own. Let the people decide.

The annoying thing about this was that there was ever a need for a "decision" by some commision. I had heard about this dispute before- the very fact that such a commision could forbid legitimate operators from using green taxis is silly. Taxi service isn't like food & the FDA where the public has a certain need for standardization; if a car is road-safe, there shouldn't be any reason why I can't use it as a taxi.

Re:week-old news.. americans like their space

[greenhybrid]

Well, that's honestly the way it is. Only certified car models can be New York City taxis.

Re:week-old news.. americans like their space

[Gadgetfreak]

That's exactly the problem. Regardless of your own interpretation of American portliness or greed, the Ford Escape hybrids they plan on using have 10" less rear leg room than the long wheelbase Crown Vics. That's a HUGE difference.

Cabs really ought to be larger station wagons, or even minivans. Hybrid or not, if I'm paying for a ride somewhere, I'd like to be able to get in and out easily, and be somewhat comfortable.

If I was cramming in the back seat of a buddy's car for a 5 minute ride to the pub, I wouldn't care. But unless they're going to pass on the hybrid gas savings to the customer, then envoronmentalism isn't enough to deal with that lack of space.

If I'm in NYC taking a cab, it means I didn't drive my car there, I took the train that was already running. That means at least 8 gallons less gas was used in my overall visit, which is good enough.

I just don't thin a hybrid taxi is worth the cost, especially considering that nobody really knows the maintenance cost or durability of them. I bet they lose money.

BTW, does anyone know what they do with the batteries in a junked Hybrid??

Re:week-old news.. americans like their space

[nunchux]

The problem, explained commission chairman Matthew W. Daus, is that people like their cabs big, and hybrids do not have the legroom and large trunks of the fleet's current workhorse, an extra-long version of the Ford Crown Victoria.

Right, but keep in mind we are talking about taxis... Which, in a city where many if not most of the population doesn't have a car, is the major (if not only) way to transport luggage to and from the airport, or a heavy item or even more than two sacks of groceries from the store to their house. Not to mention, they need to be able to accomodate four people (plus the driver) and their stuff in reasonable comfort. It's not quite the same to say "People like their cabs big" as "Big fat Americans love their big fat cars."

Re:week-old news.. americans like their space

[Have Blue]

Remember that this is New York City we're talking about. People take cabs far more frequently than pretty much anywhere else in the country. And there are lots of people (myself included) who don't own their own cars and get by on mass transit, cabs, and simple walking.

Re:week-old news.. americans like their space

[profet]

I live in the American Midwest

Too bad...

Once you leave jesusland you see that people don't ride around in pickups all day.

There is simply not enough space. The big problem is not the leg room... but the trunk space. People haul kinds of crap around the city in cabs. If they have a boot the size of an anorexic teenage girl's purse, then they aren't very useful.

Personally, I'd rather drive.

Congratulations. Personally, I'd rather be the heir to a billionaire. Sometimes things aren't possible.

Now go back to your Bush shrine and leave us blue states alone.

Re:week-old news.. americans like their space

[bobbuck]

BTW, does anyone know what they do with the batteries in a junked Hybrid??

They're made from environmentally friendly nickel-cadmium. You just chuck them in the river!

Seriously, I would expect you would exchange it when you got the new one. The core charge will be huge.

Re:week-old news.. americans like their space

[Anonymous Coward]

which is good enough.

Well, actually it's not.

By your logic, I'm on a diet because I've started to eat one less twinkie per day.

Re:week-old news.. americans like their space

[glass_window]

I'm surprised nobody has brought up the case where the cabbies are now suing the city (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/17/nyregion/17taxi .html?ex=1276660800&en=9dec967b9352b845&ei=5088&pa rtner=rssnyt&emc=rss) due to the fact that NYC cab regulations REQUIRE a certain amount of leg space and there is not a hybrid on the market that meets these standards (and thus they cannot use the medallions until a hybrid vehicle meeting such proportions exists.)

Re:week-old news.. americans like their space

[Anonymous Coward]

Personally, I'd rather drive.

Not in New York you wouldn't. Trust me on this one.

Re:week-old news.. americans like their space

[Nasarius]

Personally, I'd rather drive.

In NYC? No, no you wouldn't. Owning a car in the city is a nightmare.

Re:week-old news.. americans like their space

[zerocool^]

Personally, I'd rather drive.

You wouldn't if you lived in a city with 1,000,000 cars and 900,000 parking spaces.

Especially when a wreck on the interstate backs up traffic 25 miles and turns your 1.5 hour commute into a 4 hour commute.

//washington dc

Re:week-old news.. americans like their space

[ryanov]

There is plenty of room in a Prius, for luggage and for one's legs. Most of the Crown Victoria cabs have a partition that eats into legroom anyway. I don't see a problem here.

Re:week-old news.. americans like their space

[ryanov]

Again, the cargo space in a Prius is just fine (my dad owns one), and the legroom is reasonable. For me, the reason I'm taking a cab is to get somewhere reasonably quickly (ie. avoid train transfers, etc.), travel with something heavy, or travel after there is no acceptable mass transit. Who is it that is hemming and hawing about legroom, exactly?

I think it would be really sad to see the city held up by such a bullshit reason as legroom when the air quality and efficiency are much more important. I'm also disappointed in the Ford Escape idea. The mileage on many of the hybrid redesigns (especially the SUV's) is shitty. The Escape is rated 36/31, while the regular 4 cyl is 22/25. The Prius is rated at 60/65.

Actually, even sadder is the Accord to the Accord Hybrid. 24/34 and 29/37, respectively. Give me a break. It'd be nice to see this technology and initiatives like this used the way they were intended to be, not to provide "more power" with the same shitty gas mileage, or to give people feel-good "I'm saving the environment" hardons when they're really just paying more for the same old.

Re:week-old news.. americans like their space

[Anonymous Coward]

Hybrid Hummer? God damn! What next? Sugar free doughnuts? A Football game without beer?

Driving a Hummer is all about attitude. It's all about telling those liberal treehuggers to go fuck themselves. You think you can do that with a hybrid? Once again liberal media has ruined something that makes America great.

Re:week-old news.. americans like their space

[zorander]

The partition hardly eats into legroom. An inch or two, maybe, but the Crown Vic's in New York are extended to compensate for it. The prius would still need the partition (it's there for security purposes, y'know) and starts out with much, much less legroom than an extended Crown Vic. You can say "there's plenty of room" but is there? I'd say the definition of plenty is the current status quo. People use cabs to carry a lot of things.

Personally, I'd rather drive. Even if it costs more, I like the freedom. My little subaru gets better mileage than a cab and can haul more stuff, since that matters to me. I don't think the prius is a good idea in the city. I think a hybrid-converted Crown Vic is a great idea, though.

Re:week-old news.. americans like their space

[rsidd]

If you lived in New York City, you wouldn't want to own a car. First, because parking is expensive, second, because you don't need one: they've imported this strange concept from Europe called "public transport" and it actually works rather well.

NYC's the only truly civilised place in the US.

Re:week-old news.. americans like their space

[ryanov]

For everyone's information (not sure why I didn't do this earlier):

Crown Victoria Rear Legroom: 39.6
Toyota Prius Rear Legroom: 38.6 ...we're NOT talking about much here either.

http://www.automotive.com/2005/12/ford/crown-victo ria/compare/
http://www.automotive.com/2005/12/toyota/prius/com pare/

As for driving in the city, car ownership in the city is a hassle, so typically people won't own a car. We're not talking people who own one and don't use it in favor of taking the cab.

Re:week-old news.. americans like their space

[zorander]

The crown vic's used in nyc are extended. If you're going to compare numbers, compare the prius to the extended crown vic. No I don't know where you can find those numbers.

I wouldn't live in a city without a car, even ny.

Global warming & hybrids

[BeatlesForum.com]

To balance out the environmentalists point of view, please note that the SE United States temperature has increased approximately 1 degree F over the last 100 years - and most of that was before the 1940's.

It's very possible we are coming out of a mini ice age and not affecting the global weather patterns by our emissions that the media reports (speculatively, I might add). I believe science should provide definitive proof that man-made emissions are causing global warming and it's not a cyclical earth pattern or sun spots before we force governments and corporations to spend money on what are almost always costly solutions to reduce greenhouse gas. If you think Wal-Mart is evil from running small Mom & Pop shops out of town, wait until the environmentalists have their way and force cuts in corporate employment to pay for the additional regulations. Or better yet, get ready to pay more for products you buy every day because the environmentally-friendly (and most often liberal) media has shoved the green movement down our throats for so long and corporations that do not lay off people are forced to raise prices to fit the new eco-model. Mr. Bush has been smart to not sign the Kyoto protocol as it could damage the economy - one that is now returning well since its downturn in November, 2000, despite the huge increase in petroleum prices.

Re:Global warming & hybrids

[Anonymous Coward]

That could very well be true, but thats hardly the only issue at play here.

Saving money on gasoline consumption, reducing our consumption of oil overall (We're gonna run out, sooner or later!), and reducing our pollution are all obviously good things with immediate benefits.

I'm not with the far-left environmentalist movement, but I do believe that our wasteful use of energy is something we need to deal with culturally.

I don't think the media is liberal. Its just a perception that people have because the news reporting doesn't always the viewer's own political views. The fact that both the left and right criticize the media for being biased would confirm this, at least anecdoctally.

By the way, if it wasn't for the green movement, pollution would be a much BIGGER problem than it is today. Thanks to many of the reforms implemented, we have stopped companies from totally wasting our rivers with dangerous contaminants, for example. There is a concept called "dont shit where you eat". I think that applies well here. The environment is certianly not the same way it was before we started becoming a heavily industrialized world. Something we should consider before just having knee-jerk reactions calling for more consumption.

Re:Global warming & hybrids

[SupaKoopa]

even if global warming is a myth, concocted by a conspiracy between environmentalists, those dastardly liberals, and the shadowy organization of Jews controlling the media, is it still such a bad thing to try to reduce pollution from cars?

Re:Global warming & hybrids

[mrchaotica]

Let's think about this for a minute: If we do nothing and the environmentalists turn out to be right, we're screwed. On the other hand, if we go ahead and reduce our pollution output and it turns out global warming doesn't exist, then we've merely wasted* money. I, for one, would rather be poor than dead.

*let alone the fact that it wouldn't even be a waste then -- reducing pollution via reducing fossil fuel use would have other benefits, such as allowing people with asthma to be able to breathe in the cities (and possibly stopping kids from contracting it in the first place), stopping acid rain, reducing dependence on foreign oil, etc.

Re:Global warming & hybrids

[coshx]

I'm not even sure if this deserves a response, but...

1) source? you really shouldn't quote numbers without a link.

2) data manipulation? what about the rest of the US.? you know, the part closer to the north pole?

3) do your fucking research! It is NOT very possible that we are coming out of a mini ice age. In fact, almost all scientists (especially those not employed by polluting industries) agree that this is not the case. You may have been misinformed by media that often quote radical scientists when trying to present a "balanced" report:
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1978

4) You believe that science should provide proof that greenhouse gases cause global warming?
How about all the information here: http://unfccc.int/essential_background/items/2877. php

Oh that's right, you're going to say that we shouldn't trust the UN, even if these reports are published by the top scientists in the world? Well, didn't you take high school chemistry? Anyone with knowledge of simple chemistry will tell you of the potential dangers of green house gases. (yes, i say potential here to be diplomatic -- see #7)

5) you like to separate yourself from "environmentalists", because you obviously don't care about the long-term environment, and would rather have cheap prices today than do your part in keeping the world safe for future generations? that's selfish and narrow minded.

6) ahh..environmentally-friendly liberal media. do you just like throwing around these sayings, because you've heard them so many times they must be true? are you really that stupid to fall into partisan name-calling tactics? anyway, in terms of environmentalism, the media is actually biased against environmentalism (see above link).

7) even IF we are at the end of a mini ice age (which is highly unlikely), you still must recognize the possible devastating effects of our continued release of so many green house gases into the atmosphere, and should especially be in favor of economically-friendly initiatives.

8) I'm not sure why you chose this forum to voice your support of Bush, and ignorance towards the Kyoto agreement. This story was about taxi drivers who drive environmentally-friendly cars because it is ultimately cheaper for them, hence invalidating your claim that environmentally-friendly products cost the consumer more.

9) There ARE environmentally-friendly solutions that are also economically beneficial. In fact, this is really the best way to get industries to act in the environment's (and hence, in OUR) best interest. Simple examples include environmentally-aware heating and air-conditioning, like placement of the windows, or having heat ducts near the floor instead of near the ceiling. More complex examples generally involve symbiotic relationships with our environment to utilize a renewable or recyclable resource.

10) Please leave your politics at the door, and before responding to an article with your bias, research the topic. Forget everything you think you know, and take a fresh look at the information available. It will only make you a smarter person.

Re:Global warming & hybrids

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's think about this for a minute: If we do nothing and the environmentalists turn out to be right, we're screwed. On the other hand, if we go ahead and reduce our pollution output and it turns out global warming doesn't exist, then we've merely wasted* money. I, for one, would rather be poor than dead.

And if the environmentalist of the early 70s were right and the pollution was the only thing holding off a new ice age, we'd be really really screwed.

Just keep in mind that global warming or status quo aren't the only possible changes to the earths climate.

I'd rather spend money to figure out where the earth's climate is headed, how much of that is man made, and what would be effective measures to counteract that. (Assuming that the "new" climate is less optimal that the current one.)

However you do have a good point about improving the air quality in cities for the inhabitants of those cities. Smog really sucks to breath.

Re:Global warming & hybrids

[Anonymous Coward]

He didn't say global warming is a myth. He said there isn't proof connecting green house gases and global warming. There is evidence showing that the tempture rise we've observed so far is probably part of global tempture cycles.

As for reducing pollution from cars, meh. Show me benefit beyond a warm and fuzzy feeling.

Re:Global warming & hybrids

[Anonymous Coward]

This is just not true. Even if we don't know for certain that man-made emissions are affecting global climate change, the potential costs are high, and the real cost of compliance is relatively low. I don't remember the specifics, but I have heard projected costs of reducing greenhouse emissions at a 10-15% increase in energy costs. Yet, over the past 5 years, gasoline prices have doubled, and other energy costs have also risen considerably. This has certainly hurt the economy, but as you say it is recovering, and I would hardly call what happened 'devastating' as Bush claims that they Kyoto protocol would have been.

Finally, while you can argue about whether the recent increases in global average temperatures are more due to man-made emissions or natural cycles, increasing atmospheric CO2 absolutely will in the long run increase global tempeartures. There is no scientific doubt on this subject, and any college physics student can calculate the effect. The evidence that human emissions are contributing to rising atmospheric CO2 is almost as certain, though the degree to which natural carbon sinks will compensate is not known, so we could be off in the time scale of the effect. Nevertheless, unchecked greenhouse emissions will eventually cause substantial climate change. There is absolutely no doubt about that, and anyone who tells you otherwise is ignorant, stupid, or lying.

Re:Global warming & hybrids

[Temporal]

Please refer to the second graph here.

That's quite a spike we see in the last century. Yes, a lot of it was before the 1940's, but another big increase is in the last 20 years. Meanwhile, the last few centuries before this one show much less change.

Please don't say "1 degree is irrelevant". The difference between where we are now and an ice age is about eight degrees.

Another thought: Corporate America has a clear interest in convincing you that global warming is a non-threat. If they succeed at this, they earn more money. On the other hand, environmentalists have no such interest in convincing you of their side. They will not receive more money. In fact, in terms of money, they will probably end up worse-off, due to the economic damage their policies will create. Yet, they persist in arguing their case.

Who do you trust?

Re:Global warming & hybrids

[Anonymous Coward]

In many instances environmentally friendly alternatives are not always more expensive than the standard versions. In some instances they can be cheaper.

There is a US building code (I have forgotten the acronym) concerned with energy efficient buildings. The changes typically add 2% to the capital cost of an office building but reduce energy usage by 30%, typically paid for within 2 years. Thus if the office building is up for more than 2 years it is CHEAPER! Also the extra use of natural light in the designs seem to result in higher worker productivity.

Re:Global warming & hybrids

[Anonymous Coward]

I am not convinced that some how 'Corporate America' wins if people think that global warming is not a threat. If it turns out to be true then they will also lose. I think it is more a devotion to the status quo.

Changes can be made to vehicles, construction techniques, town design and so on that could make a lot of difference to energy usage without affecting expense of quality life much at all, but it would mean that markets would be more open to new businesses offering these products and services which might make some companies nervous.

More radical reduction of waste requires more changes to business and industrial processes that further widens the field.

What I think the corporations need to do is take the bull by the horns (and some are beginning to do so) and innovate in the areas of energy efficiency. By taking a lead they can offer energy efficient products that will appeal to the consumers even if global warming turns out not to be a problem, and also if it does.

Re:Global warming & hybrids

[Temporal]

Corporations which cause a lot of pollution would be hurt by added environmental requirements, since they would have to pay to upgrade their factories, use more expensive techniques, etc.

But, you are absolutely right that this will also create new industries which produce such environmentally-friendly equipment, etc.

What I think the corporations need to do is ... innovate in the areas of energy efficiency.

Getting back to the hybrid topic, Toyota is a great example of this. In 1993 (I think) they announced their "Earth charter", which lead to the creation of their hybrid engine. The goal of the project was explicitly to design an environmentally-friendly car. And now it looks like it's paying off for them, big time. In 2000 they announced the beginning of their "New Earth Charter", in which they are researching not just ways to make a car that operates cleanly, but new manufacturing techniques to make it more friendly to build and ways to improve disposal. It sounds like they're really putting a lot of effort into it.

Some more details.

Meanwhile, car companies here in America are innovating in entirely different directions. :(

Re:Global warming & hybrids

[fermion]

Dale, you giblet-head, we live in Texas! It's already 110 in the summer, and if it gets one degree hotter, I'm going to kick your ass!

And i live for the day when all the christian get raptured into heaven so the rest of us can live happy healthy lives on Earth. I cannot imagine a better heaven than an earth without the bigotry and hate that is the misappropriated statements of the loving and peacenik Jesus. A Jesus that tried to live everyday helping people, and making the world a better place, not justifying his massive consumption and obsessing compulsively about the end of the world.

I mean we all know that his primary concern was that we would all get the best price, no matter who has to suffer to get it. Or that none of us should ever have to suffer, even if such suffering meant less harm to his fathers creation. No Jesus died on the cross so that we in American could all buy cheap shit at walmart. (Oh dude, you not supposed to say shit in front of jesus!)

Re:Global warming & hybrids

[SupaKoopa]

Okay. Try standing behind a car and breathing in the exhaust fumes. Then tell me that that stuff is good for the environment.

Re:Global warming & hybrids

[chihowa]

A Pascal's wager of sorts...

Re:Global warming & hybrids

[nadaou]

If we do nothing and the environmentalists turn out to be right, we're screwed.

You are making an important mistake here. It isn't the environmentalist* crowd which are primarily espousing the greenhouse gas - global climate change connection. It is scientists doing so**, and there is infact general consensus on the matter. As opposed to the squeaky wheel climate change deniers, the scientists have hard data, the laws of physics and chemistry, the best predictive computer models, and decades of study on the subject to back them up. The deniers only have self interest and the entrenched status quo on their side.

[*] often code for the tree hugging hippie dope fiend ad hominem attack.

[**] Read this joint press release from the Academy of Sciences of eleven nations from a few weeks ago:

[HTML]
http://www.mindfully.org/Air/2005/Joint-Science-Ac ademies7jun2005.htm

[PDF]
http://nationalacademies.org/onpi/06072005.pdf

Re:Global warming & hybrids

[mrchaotica]

I'm just responding according to the assumptions the original poster made. It's a stronger argument to say that even if the environmentalists were tree-hugging hippies like the O.P. thinks it's better to listen to them anyway than it is to try to refute that by saying there's a scientific consensus.

Re:Global warming & hybrids

[Anonymous Coward]

"And if the environmentalist of the early 70s were right and the pollution was the only thing holding off a new ice age, we'd be really really screwed."

It is a myth that such an ice age was predicted.

Re:Global warming & hybrids

[HyperChicken]

That second graph you point out has long since been discredited. The algorithm used to create it will always create similar looking graphs, no matter what data it is fed. Source: http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/04/10/wo_ muller101504.asp

"Corporate America"? What about "political America funding science thus resulting in completely false results like the graph you cited"? Most global warming studies are funding by groups dedicated on proving that global warming exists. Yeah, that doesn't harm the results. No, no.

Lastly, nothing has been shown to link pollution with global warming. It is much more likely that global warming is part of natural climate cycles (but why would chicken little let fact get in their way?).

Re:Global warming & hybrids

[pintomp3]

let's not forget geopolitics. our invovlement in the middle east would change too. less external support and money for corrupt dictators and monarchs too.

Re:Global warming & hybrids

[pintomp3]

you have enlightened me. i shed a tear for the owners of walmart. they are always passing the savings along to us, now matter how much it hurts their bottom line. yeah, let's look out for the large corporations that look after us. ask not what corperations can do for you...

Re:Global warming & hybrids

[mrchaotica]

I mentioned that. See "reducing dependence on foreign oil" down at the end.

Link To NYC Hybrid Taxis

[Doc Ruby]

The actual story about NYC hybrid taxis is in an Austin, TX paper.

NYC could encourage this conversion to hybrids, which get better mileage, by offering rebates on other taxes on the hybrids, making them up by increasing them on the nonhybrids in taxi fleets. Maintaining the total tax collected, but distributed to favor the hybrids. Including the gas savings (50%) on gas, which is about $2.60:gallon in NYC these days (including other taxes), such a move could convert most of the 13K cabs clogging the streets with filth. Once a critical mass was achieved, including garage mechanics with mostly hybrid skills, the city could drop the regime.

I'll be suggesting this approach to the NYC City Council "Technology" committee that I advise. It would help for New Yorkers (and others) to send constructive comments supporting this move to the committee Chair, Councilmember Brewer. Politicians, especially in the City, love to get public support for specific initiatives, especially when the ball is already rolling like it is with the TLC.

Taxi regulatory standards

[TheScorpion420]

Taxi Stands: Dispatcher-operated taxi stands are available at major Manhattan transportation terminals, such as the Port Authority Bus Terminal, Penn Station, Grand Central Terminal, Peter Minuit Plaza, the World Trade Center and the Citicorp Center. There are also 207 other taxi stands located at major transit hubs, office and retail centers, hospitals and hotels throughout Manhattan.

They still have a cabbie terminal? . . .

Re:Taxi regulatory standards

[sholden]

Why wouldn't they? The PATH terminal isn't exactly small.

Re:Taxi regulatory standards

[noewun]

Yep. There's a lot more down there than the World Trade Hole: the World Financial Center (across West Street from the WTC) is only the beginning of it.

Re:Taxi regulatory standards

[TheScorpion420]

Sorry, I just figured the linked page was horribly out of date. Go figure.

If it is so good...

[mi]

Hybrid vehicles really shine in urban congested traffic anyways (lots of stops and crawls)

Why then, does the government need to do it? Oh, wait, this is New York we are talking about...

The city of Rent Control and of more Che Guevarra fans, than there are in South America (proportionally).

Flamebait my behind...

Re:If it is so good...

[Doc Ruby]

Because, as you point out, NYC is the home of some extremely shortsighted capitalists who would otherwise ruin our city. So we've invented some ways to rein them in. Now, I don't know what in what godforsaken hole you make your burrow home. But come to NYC some time, and we'll show you how free you truly are, when the people have a government keeping the Robber Barons off your back.

To counter your deluded post directly: since they could save at least 50% on gas, why haven't the taxi fleet owners already upgraded, as they buy new vehicles? Are they all "Che Guevara fans"?

Re:If it is so good...

[mrchaotica]

They haven't already upgraded because they don't buy
"new" vehicles, they buy retired police cars with 250K (or whatever) miles on them already. In other words, they're not going to spend (at least) $20K extra per car just to save gas, unless the government forces them to.

Re:If it is so good...

[Doc Ruby]

Some do buy used cars, police or otherwise. Others buy new cars. Then they spend big bucks upgrading them to spec. Cabbies have told me it cost them anywhere from $10-25K upgrading cars.

I don't think that hybrids cost $20K more than their non-hybrid competition. If gasguzzling cabs get something like 10MPG, the way I do in NYC traffic (in my 25MPG highway car), and gas is $2.50:gallon, that's $0.25:mile. $10K is 40K miles, which cabs probably do in 6 months. So even a $20K premium on a hybrid (which doesn't exist) is repaid in a year. Cabs seem to stay on NYC streets for about 5 years, so that's a 4:1 payback, of a significant investment (again, assuming the investment is anything like that large - otherwise it's a much higher rate of return on a small investment).

Then consider the halved refueling downtime, among NYC's scattered gas stations and fleet garages, and the money is really compelling. Since NYC pays for lots of services related to gas consumption (fuel transport regulation, asthma healthcare, etc), it's got its own financial stake. Then consider the less-direct savings, in breathable air, less-dirty buildings, less dependence on foreign oil, and hybrids are the way to go.

Re:If it is so good...

[Anonymous Coward]

The taxi commission in NYC, in addition to issuing medallions and driver credentials, approves the models of cars allowed to be used as yellow cabs. Until this announcement, no hybrid models were approved.

You can take this as an example of silly over-regulation, but I and many other New Yorkers find a compelling interest in uniform equipment, verified vehicle safety, and the other regulated aspects. Deregulation would be a zoo, and life here is hard enough already -- it's nice to be able to rely on yellow cabs.

Now I'll agree it was dumb when the taxi commission sold some medallions specifically for hybrid cabs -- at a discount, to encourage the conservation aspect -- more than a year before they approved use of any actual hybrid car. The medallion owners had to sue to get their attention. NYTimes had a story on this several weeks back.

Re:If it is so good...

[Anonymous Coward]

NYC lives off of these " extremely shortsighted capitalists" and you know that damn well.

Your city will be ruined if your fucking commies take it over and run out all these "evil & greedy" from the town.
That will be end of it.

Re:If it is so good...

[mi]

NYC is the home of some extremely shortsighted capitalists who would otherwise ruin our city.

You have abundant evidence lined up, I'm sure...

Now, I don't know what in what godforsaken hole you make your burrow home.

I spend a lot of time in New York and "being truly free" is the last sentiment that comes to my mind, when I'm here. People tend to be rude, nasty, and obnoxious. They are noisy and would not yield a seat on a subway. Service in most businesses is awful.

Getting out of the city is what makes one appreciate America... Trully, Jefferson was dead right in his prediction:

When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe, we shall become as corrupt as Europe.

But come to NYC some time, and we'll show you how free you truly are, when the people have a government keeping the Robber Barons off your back.

Really? They do? All those trade union cum mafiosos do? You did not "keep them off" anybody's backs, you are proud of them -- and keep reminding the critics, how Mafia helped America invade Italy (!).

since they could save at least 50% on gas, why haven't the taxi fleet owners already upgraded, as they buy new vehicles?

Because the 50% (if that) is not sufficient to justify the cost of a new car?

Or because they have no money left after paying $800K for the taxi medallion -- through an artificially maintained government monopoly?

The cost of fuel is only a small part of what they are paying...

Are they all "Che Guevara fans"?

No "Che Guevara fans" ride in their taxis and complain to police, when they find out, the cabbie happens to like Bush.

Re:If it is so good...

[Doc Ruby]

Nobody asked you for your harebrained binary advice about NYC. We've got a pretty good balance, with ups and downs, between the people and the corporations. We don't "run out evil & greedy" people from NYC. We do make stupid loudmouths look like monkeys when they talk bullshit about "commies" and other crap like you. The biggest ruination of NYC has been all the out-of-towners who moved here during the bubble, pretending to be New Yorkers, when all they know is where the Starbucks is. It's watering down our image, so that even yapping Anonymous Cowards, too gutless to have an NYC street argument out in the open, think you have clue #1 about what goes on here.

Re:If it is so good...

[Anonymous Coward]

even yapping Anonymous Cowards, too gutless to have an NYC street argument out in the open, think you have clue #1 about what goes on here.

And what, "Doc Ruby" is your real name? I don't see you giving out your location so some slashdot nerds can come down and dribble on you, why not, you're such a tough New Yorker, right?

Re:If it is so good...

[jtbauki]

I believe the "20K more" figure to be correct. However, people and companies don't pay that amount because the government subsidizes the cost. So, for taxi companies, the benefit is twofold.

Re:If it is so good...

[Doc Ruby]

Abundant evidence of Robber Barons? We invented the term, and they're still all over the place, held in check by the laws we passed when they went too far to sustain, a century ago.

You don't know anything about New York. You've got the lame hick attitude that because people don't have time to do you favors, or speak your peculiar homespun dialect of manners, we're rude. I've lived around this country, and New Yorkers are generally the most truly considerate of others I've met, mostly because we're more aware of other people, and generally quick on the uptake. Now, I didn't claim New Yorkers are "nice". You confuse your mommy's home cooking, and her prying into your affairs, with "freedom". I expect you don't have any real friends here, not real New Yorkers anyway, or you'd know how a NYC friendship can be stronger than family anywhere else. Because it gets tested so often by the stress of this huge, fast, competitive city. If it survives, it's strong.

Your entire post is a litany of hollow NYC cliches. You're obviously too scared to really deal with New York, so you shiver and clench when you see us up close. I'd recommend you try to relax, and find out just why we're the only global city in the country, why people flock here to work, live and play, despite all the adversity. But we don't need you. You don't understand New York, or freedom. Like how that "artificial government monopoly" was how we reined in an out-of-control unregulated business that was killing people in the streets, ripping them off, and clogging up the arteries of the city whose business is essential to the US and global economies.

Or economics. They're paying $800K for medallions because they are worth more than that in revenue.

You aren't very good at math, either. $2.50:gal gas in 10MPG vehicles driving easily 200K miles a year is $50K saved per year. If their profits were so tight, fleets would be buying only hybrids. Instead, they're fat and lazy, and it's hurting the City. So we're doing something about it. That's what we do in NYC: we do things.

Now your "Che Guevara" taxi riders shows you don't know anything about Guevara, either. He'd be the last to call the cops on a cabbie, even if that cabbie was fool enough to like Bush. Like a real New Yorker, he'd tell that cabbie exactly why they were dead wrong to like Bush.

But I guess that last comment explains your entire post. Your one of those Red people we see on TV sometimes, who talk shit about "9/11", using New Yorkers as human shields for stupid moves like invading Iraq, or shorting NYC billions in defense money, instead spreading it around your Welfare States like gutless, greedy cowards. Perfectly consistent with your demented hatred of New York's freedom, you're lying about what happens in the backs of taxis. How do you know about these alleged "Che Guevara fans" in the back seats? Unless it's *you*, or *your friends and associates*, I don't see how you could know, if these events even happened. Instead, I expect you're just lying to make NYC look bad. Well, that might work on the lunkheads in your exurban paradise that New York's work supports. But you made the mistake trying to bullshit a New Yorker. Next time, take the bus - to New Jersey.

Re:If it is so good...

[Doc Ruby]

A Toyota Prius costs under $20K. So unless those government subsidies are paying buyers to take the nonhybrid cars, I don't see how you could be right. And I'd like to know more about these government subsidies you mention.

Re:If it is so good...

[greenhybrid]

The Toyota Prius debuted at $20,000. It's now a grand or so higher. The Civic Hybrid is several thousand less. Are you implying that Crown V's are free?

Re:If it is so good...

[Doc Ruby]

I'm not asking for your "real name", just the minimum ability to tell your dribbling nonsense from the other Anonymous Cowards'. But, since you offered, I'll name the place, and you can name the time. Then I can explain things to you properly.

Re:If it is so good...

[jtbauki]

I'm saying the toyota Prius costs $40,000 dollars to make. Toyota sells it to the car companies for $40,000. USA pays off $20,000 dollars, and then the car sells for $20,000 dollars. Hence, the word subsidized. Consumers get the hybrid cars for cheaper than what it's worth.

Re:If it is so good...

[TogusaS9]

I'm saying the toyota Prius costs $40,000 dollars to make. Toyota sells it to the car companies for $40,000. USA pays off $20,000 dollars, and then the car sells for $20,000 dollars. Hence, the word subsidized. Consumers get the hybrid cars for cheaper than what it's worth.

From what I've heard, neither the US nor the Japanese government are subsidizing the Prius in any way, shape or form. Could you please provide proof of your assertion? A verifiable link or document, perhaps?

Re:If it is so good...

[BewireNomali]

so some slashdot nerds can come down and dribble on you, why not, you're such a tough New Yorker, right?

dude, did you say dribble? You're so not ready.
lol.

Re:If it is so good...

[Hello Kitty]

If it weren't vaguely unfair-use to do so, I'd be forwarding this post to every other New Yorker I know. Amen, pal, and keep the blowtorch set to high.

A point I haven't seen anyone raise yet, BTW (though this thread's gaining terrain fast): The prospect of reduction in not only air but noise pollution. I'm not one of those bumpkins or yuppies that yelps about the noise near nightlife venues (if you don't like it, folks, go back to Connecticut and free up the decent apartments for the people who can hack it), but it'll be kind of cool to hear the results of less idling in front of aforementioned nightlife venues

Re:If it is so good...

[mi]

Abundant evidence of Robber Barons? We invented the term, and they're still all over the place, held in check by the laws we passed when they went too far to sustain, a century ago.

I asked for evidence of "extremely shortsighted capitalists who would otherwise ruin our city" -- and why is New York in particularly high danger of these folk. You twisted my words and did not provide any evidence. Point one

You've got the lame hick attitude that because people don't have time to do you favors, or speak your peculiar homespun dialect of manners, we're rude.

You are rude. The "manners" would not pass as such anywhere in the world. A matter of taste, I suppose...

Like how that "artificial government monopoly" was how we reined in an out-of-control unregulated business that was killing people in the streets, ripping them off, and clogging up the arteries of the city whose business is essential to the US and global economies. Preventing "killing people in the streets, ripping them off" does not require medallions to cost as much as a decent house. The streets are still as clogged up as always, of course. Point two.

You aren't very good at math, either. $2.50:gal gas in 10MPG vehicles driving easily 200K miles a year is $50K saved per year.

Even if we accept your numbers (and $2.5 per gallon is a recent figure), that's still $50K per year total, not saved, math genius -- unless, of course, these hybrids use no fuel at all. (That's point three, BTW). And even if the hybrids manage to halve that, there will still be the cost of the medallion -- $800K at very modest 8% per yer makes $64K.

Still $25K per year saving, you say, math genius? Nope, you are forgetting maintainance costs, which will be higher on these hybrids, at least initially -- Toyota's quality is the best in the industry, but with the beatings, these cars get, they are bound to start breaking. And they are a lot more complex inside, than the "bad old" american cruisers.

But, unlike you, I'm not about to impose my opinion on other people's business -- if someone wants to switch their cab to hybrid, they are welcome. My point was, government should not be pushing anyone. Because, among other reasons, it often does that armed with faulty math of ignorant "dogooders".

That's what we do in NYC: we do things.

You are not on a meeting, sweetie, watch you rhethorics...

Now your "Che Guevara" taxi riders shows you don't know anything about Guevara, either. He'd be the last to call the cops on a cabbie, even if that cabbie was fool enough to like Bush.

My knowldege of Che Guevara is beside the point, but I certainly do know Che Guevara fans. Less than a year ago, a lady from New York made news, when she discovered a cabbie, who said he likes Bush. She was particularly upset, because the gentleman was Black -- she got out of the car and accused him of "assaulting her". Now, do I have a proof, she likes Comrade Che? I don't. Do I have good reasons to think, she does? Yes I do, of course...

Your [sic] one of those Red people we see on TV sometimes, who talk shit about "9/11"...

Why are you lying about me? I'm not your friend nor an associate -- so you can not know, can you? Perfectly consistent with your demented hatred of anything here.

Perfectly consistent with your demented hatred of New York's freedom, you're lying about what happens in the backs of taxis.

Oh, what other sins are perfectly consisted with my demented hatred?

But you made the mistake trying to bullshit a New Yorker.

Boy, did I hit a nerve. Thank you for confirming most of the negative observations I made about New Yorkers... You are rather stupid, (objectively -- just look at the points above), but very passionate. Puke...

Re:If it is so good...

[Doc Ruby]

Asshole, you're hopeless. So I'll keep it short.

1> I am being rude to you, because you're a dick who pissed me off with your bullshit. When someone deserves rudeness, they get it. Pronto. None of this fake "niceness" that means nothing except you're too much a pussy to confront someone when they're wrong. Your expectations of politeness after your asshole remarks are more evidence that you can't cut it in NYC.

2> ROBBER BARONS. You want a modern example? OK, how about the "West Side Stadium", which Bloomberg tried to give away to a real estate crony, for billions less than it's worth. Creating a transit nightmare. How could you possibly have missed that? Because you're a Bush-worshipping hick, who doesn't know anything about NYC except "people on the subway are scary".

3> The math is correct: 10MPG is what is saved in these efficient vehicles. You're so insistent on making "points" - the only one you've got is on top of your head. $25K:year savings is going to go pretty far on Toyotas that cost $20K new. Idiot.

4> Don't call me sweetie, even if you're prepared to explain that "on a meeting" nonsense. You're the one who doesn't know how to do anything, who's got only rhetoric.

5> Like your "racist vs cabbie" newspaper story. From the NY Post, Rupert Murdoch's flagship Bush propaganda rag, no doubt. Let me get this straight: from your insipid rhetoric about "Che Guevara" and your noticing some random, probably false story about a Bush hater, it's unreasonable for me to guess that you are a Red State asshole. But because some racist calls the cops on a Black Bush-loving cabbie (supposedly), you can guess that she's a "Che Guevara fan"? Fuck you.

6> You know nothing, you know no one. You've got no points. Yes, I'm passionate. And that "nerve"? I get off on showing stupid assholes how wrong you are. That's the NYC national pastime. Since NYC scares you, and fills you with "negative observations", don't come back. We don't need you. Whatever it is that you do around here on your "frequent trips", there's a line a mile long behind you of people who want to come here. Who probably get it enough that they'll do a better job, among the "rude" people who get everything done. Don't worry, you won't be missed.

Re:If it is so good...

[Doc Ruby]

Also, emergency sirens wouldn't necessarily have to be so damn loud all the time. Even with all the cars silent, we won't be getting any "peace and quiet" around here anytime soon. I'd rather have the polyglot ruckus roaring in my ears than all those engines.

BTW, forward as you please. I'm flattered. If only there were a way to collect royalties...

Re:If it is so good...

[arivanov]

Wrong math. Under NYC conditions (or any large city conditons) the Prius will need a new battery pack every 50K-10K miles.

Cab companies (and drivers) are not stupid. There is a reason why they do not use hybrids anywhere in the world. Diesels, Gas Conversions (CNG or LPG) - yes (95% + of European taxis are either diesel or LPG). Hybrid - nope. The numbers simply do not add up. 6-8 battery packs over the average lifetime of a cab will kill any advantage from fuel savings.

Compared to that diesel, CNG or LPG actually have longer lifetime and lower maintenance than a plain petrol engine due to lower engine wear.

Re:If it is so good...

[sugar and acid]

You totally pulled that stuff out of your arse. Diesel and LPG are popular because of the reasons you have mentioned. But there really hasn't been a chance for anybody to transition a taxi fleet to hybrids mainly because the first hybrids were small cars and unsuitable for taxi service. Now you actually have to come up with some data that shows the prius wears out the battery that quickly, and that the battery is priced so high that that it negates the fuel saving. Using your very dodgy worsed case math a taxi hybrid would need a new battery each 80K on average. Prius batteries were originally priced at $4000 to install but have been steadily going down in price, at that kind of cost a hybrid taxi would still be cost effective. Also the environment a new york taxi is in is the one where you will see the largest difference in fuel economy between a hybrid and a conventional engine.

Re:If it is so good...

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a reason why they do not use hybrids anywhere in the world.

There are Prius taxis in the Greater Victoria area right now, and there have been for at least two years.

Re:If it is so good...

[Doc Ruby]

The maintenence cost keeps coming up in this thread. Do you have any basis for the MTBF you cite, and its cost? How about comparative info for maintenence costs of existing nonhybrid powertrains, and other components where Toyota has redesigned the Prius?

Another poster cited a cost of $2-4K extra for a Prius over a nonhybrid, otherwise identical except the energy efficiency system. At 75Kmi, per new pack (assuming your MTBF is accurate) with just 10MPG saved (probably more like 20+), that's 7500 gallons, at $2.50 (low in NYC) is $2000, which is breakeven. Since my estimates were charitable, there's probably still more profit. Even the labor for replacements is probably balanced by the savings in 50% less refueling stops instead of picking up passengers (and the labor required to support the refuels).

Even a breakeven, the hybrids see the savings sent to battery makers and hi-tech mechanics, rather than gas companies. And then there's all the savings from cutting pollution, including money not spent on healthcare and scrubbing buildings. It's all pretty close, except the human benefits of less pollution and energy efficiency/independence (the primary reasons to do this). So what are the actual numbers, with sources, on battery replacement?

Re:If it is so good...

[instarx]

I spend a lot of time in New York and "being truly free" is the last sentiment that comes to my mind, when I'm here. People tend to be rude, nasty, and obnoxious. They are noisy and would not yield a seat on a subway. Service in most businesses is awful.

You don't know what the F* you are talking about. My rudeness aside, New Yorkers are not rude - they simply don't spout all the meaningless "Have a nice day" nonsense the rest of the country spouts without meaning a word of it. Because most visitors don't realize this they interpret New Yorkers as cold and rude. It really brands you as a tourist. I've found New Yorker's to be extremely friendly and helpful.

Service in NY is BAD? WTF are you talking about!? There is NO city in this country where service is a good as in NYC. Sure, you don't get a salesperson in a department store helping you pick out just the right shade of sweater (unless you are at Barney's looking for a $1,200 one), but most New Yorkers don't want salepeople bothering then uselessly anyway. Most New Yorkers just want all the useless salespeople to go away when we visit other parts of the country. "Just let me shop and stop bothering me for cryin out loud - if I need help I'll ask!"

And restaurants - there are no better restaurants in the country for service. Service levels that are unacceptable in NYC are the rule in most of the rest of the country.

Oh, and you didn't get a seat on the subway!! Well Boo-hoo! How horrible for you. The MTA only carries 5 million people a day and I guess someone just forgot to call ahead and save your seat for you? How many other New Yorkers were standing? I have seen people offer seats to people with kids, elderly and handicapped people daily on subways and buses in NYC for decades.

But then maybe New Yorkers are just rude to you because you are such a jerk - ever think of that?

Re:If it is so good...

[mi]

My rudeness aside, New Yorkers are not rude

Can one ask for a better quote, than the above? I mean, really... You used the F-word twice -- to convince me, New Yorkers are not rude?..

The rudeness, I'm talking about consists of talking in subway -- across the car above the heads of dozens of people (and I am not just talking about caffeinated kids -- on my almost daily subway trips, I've seen groups of adults of colors entering through different doors and continuing conversations, as if there is no one else). I'm talking about taxis stopping in the middle of the street -- dozens of cars behind them be damned. Of pedestrians (and bikers) ignoring the traffic lights and mindlessly "flipping" the upset drivers. And yes, of (not) yielding one's seat to an elderly or disabled (forget about the fairer sex). You have seen it happen? Are you sure, that has been a New Yorker?

There is NO city in this country where service is a good as in NYC. [...] Most New Yorkers just want all the useless salespeople to go away when we visit other parts of the country.

See, you can't even imagine a salesperson being useful -- and yet you claim to have the best service in the country... Pathetic.

But then maybe New Yorkers are just rude to you because you are such a jerk - ever think of that?

What insight... What exquisite politeness... No, they are not particularly rude to me -- it is just that, what passes as normal demeanor here, is quite obnoxious by the standards of most places in the world. Just ask any other immigrant...

Re:If it is so good...

[arivanov]

50K-100K (typo on my side, I meant 100 and wrote 10. Bummer.). You say 80K. Average taxi life is 400K. That is 5 battery packs. The environment where the hybrid has the largest fuel economy is also the environment where it wears down fastest.

Thanks for confirming the numbers by the way. These were _exactly_ the numbers I meant to say and I would have said if I did not mistype 10 for 100.

The most perplexing question ever...

[John Seminal]

I propose two facts, that are incompatible.

1) Taxi Meddalions (the license to operate a taxi) can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. I think I remember reading that one sold a few years ago for over $350,000.

2) The people driving the taxis, they don't look like the wealthy type.

They should deregulate all taxis. Maybe prices would fall if there was free competition. I know, on days I am short on money, I would like to slap a taxi sign on my car and drive down to the airport. A couple hours later, I would have enough money to go back to the bar.

And I love the idea of green friendly cars. I think it is a step in the right direction. But what would be better than legislation is a green friendly car that gets 60+ mpg and has a sticker price of around $9,000. They would sell like hotcakes (which I think the Geo did for a while).

Will we get a cheap green car? I think we will, but probably not from Ford, GM, or Chrysler. I bet it will come from a hyundi or some asian car. The most attractive thing about a green friendly car is the MPG it gets, which appeals to people who don't want to get raped at the gas pumps. Unfortunatly, those people are not the ones buying $50,000 SUV's, they are the ones in economy sized cars.

Lower the price, and everyone will be buying them.

Re:The most perplexing question ever...

[greenhybrid]

Actually, studies show that hybrid owners are much wealthier on average than the typical American. At the present, drivers don't necessarily save money with hybrids because of the premium for the technology. Those with the cash to spare often opt for a more environmentally-friendly solution that also reduces dependence on foreign oil. In the case of taxis, they're driven enough that breaking even is much more likely and the smog problem is also addressed. The issue about "room" in hybrids isn't really accurate. Besides the space for a battery pack, there really isn't much difference.

Re:The most perplexing question ever...

[Anonymous Coward]

They should deregulate all taxis. Maybe prices would fall if there was free competition. I know, on days I am short on money, I would like to slap a taxi sign on my car and drive down to the airport. A couple hours later, I would have enough money to go back to the bar.

Because nobody in NYC would ever abuse the free-taxi system by slapping a taxi sign on their car and picking up people to rape or otherwise victimize...

Re:The most perplexing question ever...

[stu72]

Are you serious? Because of the rare chance that someone might abuse a freedom, it should simple not exist? Wow.

Re:The most perplexing question ever...

[Anonymous Coward]

Sadly the free market does not solve every problem. NYC taxis are relatively safe because they are regulated. I won't argue that there is somehting of a scam going with those medallions, but the regulation works.

The cab drivers don't make the bulk of the money.

Re:The most perplexing question ever...

[mrchaotica]

The issue about room in hybrids is accurate because the biggest one (that isn't an SUV) currently on the market is the Toyota Prius, and as a midsize car it's a heck of a lot smaller than a Crown Vic.

Re:The most perplexing question ever...

[stu72]

Mod parent up - seriously.. Taxi regimes in most cities are nothing more than welfare for those that already own licenses. There is no doubt that for-hire vehicles need to be regulated in some manner to avoid congestion, but there are much better ways of doing it than simply not allowing any more cabs, i.e.

- legalize livery services (running a for-hire vehicle that picks up more than one customer)
- charge *all* vehicle owners a congestion charge for driving in the city without limiting their # - if congestion becomes worse, raise the charge - for-hire vehicles, esp. livery services, can spread that cost out among hundreds of customers during the day, making it much more economical than private car ownership.

Is there any good reason why a license to run a business should be the single largest cost in starting that business? When you start a restaurant, the cost of a business license is a miniscule part of the capital required, and look at the incredible variety of restaurants on offer in any large city.

Re:The most perplexing question ever...

[imsabbel]

Same could be said for locks on doors...
People could abduct others and LOCK THEM IN!!!
Imagine the possibilites for abuse!
Lets regulate them!

Re:The most perplexing question ever...

[Anonymous Coward]

People are required to get licenses to operate cars, use heavy machinery, perform surgery, dispense medicine, etc, because screwing up while doing these things can kill people. Like it or not, keeping track of who is allowed to perform these tasks makes it easier for the government and law enforcement to track and stop abuse. Taxi medallions should be cheaper and easier to get, but the system has and WILL be abused.

Re:The most perplexing question ever...

[Richthofen80]

The Cabs aren't regulated for safety. All vehicles are required annual vehicle inspections in states like Massachusetts.

Instead, the regulation is about fees. Ever get taken on a ride you knew was the long way? How about being charged a 'fee' for going to routine destinations, on top of the fare? That's what the regulation is about. The city is putting its stamp on the validity of prices; hence why all taxis usually have a list of special fees and regular rates listed inside. This, in turn , encourages tourists and others to feel safe and justified in spending money on it. Physical safety of the vehicle already exists through other legislation apart from regulation.

However, I agree with the original thread; regulation has made starting a business moving people via car practically impossible without giving obscene amounts of cash to the regulation body. Like almost all local government institutions, graft, bribery, and the good-ole boy network rear their ugly heads.

Re:The most perplexing question ever...

[The Conductor]

A distinction needs to be made here between "non-discretionary" licensing (anyone who can meet some simple requirements qualifies) and fixed-allocation licensing. The number of NYC taxi medallions is a fixed number that hasn't increased since the 30's. Now everyone who has one has an equity interest in it, and therefore an interest in keeping the number of medallions down, perpetuating the cycle.

Walter Williams often mentions the topic. Taxi regulation was a chapter in one of his books. (He is an advocate of free-market capitalism as the best way to lift African-Americans up to economic equality.)

Re:The most perplexing question ever...

[dtungsten]

No, not that it should not exist, just that there needs to be a certain, reasonable amount of regulation on it. Just because people need a driver's license to drive a car, does not mean that the freedom ceases to exist (note that this is somewhat different from a "right"). That being said, $350,000 for a cab license does seem excessive (but since I know little of the economics of taxi service and what it costs to regulate, I really can't speak with authority). Things aren't as black and white as people would like to believe.

Re:The most perplexing question ever...

[drsquare]

It's not a rare thing, it happens a lot. That's why it's illegal to stop a taxi on the street, you have to ring one up first (by law at least, it happens anyway).

Taxis should be regulated, for the sake of safety and quality. For example compare the quality of London taxi drivers with New York ones.

Re:The most perplexing question ever...

[drsquare]

I don't think people who drive taxis are part of the old boy's network. That's for politicians and the like.

Re:The most perplexing question ever...

[Tesla Tank]

Will we get a cheap green car? I think we will, but probably not from Ford, GM, or Chrysler. I bet it will come from a hyundi or some asian car.

My spider sense is telling me that it JUST MIGHT be Toyota. :p

Re:The most perplexing question ever...

[Anonymous Coward]

How does a licensure system stop that? It will be too late before anyone notices before someone gets raped/etc.

Re:The most perplexing question ever...

[baddestverb]

That's not a terribly realistic viewpoint. The licensure system both helps prevent crimes by taxi drivers and punishes them, because there are serious repercussions for drivers who violate the regulations. Drivers can lose their licenses, in addition to facing criminal charges. Because each license has a number, it's easier to track the perpetrator. Each cab is returned to a base at the end of the shift, where fares, mileage, etc. are cataloged. A hole in the cab inventory is investigated. "Gypsy" cabs are more dangerous than licensed taxis and car services because their drivers can be virtually untrackable. The cars may not be driven by their owners (and the same is true of licensed cabs, but at least the cab itself has a trackable owner who will be held responsible). Gypsy cabs also are not returned to a base at the end of the day -- which means they can be far more easily hidden or destroyed than yellow cabs and licensed car service cars.

Re:The most perplexing question ever...

[Anubis350]

I'm a thinkin you're not talking about NYC here. The law in NYC is that Taxis may pick people up on the street (i.e. flag down a taxi...) and limo services must be called for pickup (a limo driver cannot pick up a fare on the street). Interestingly, when we had the taxi strike a couple years ago, the city authorized the limo services to pick up fares on corners while the taxi drivers were on strike...

Good step but a little late

[Jeet81]

A lot of other cities have public transportation running on propane, etc. Many international cities have seen a lot of cut back in pollution just by switching the public transportation to a more environment friendly energy source.

Re:Good step but a little late

[Sir Mac Gyver]

That's very true. In Argentina, where I live, all cabs use compressed natural gas... and lots of cars do too. It doesn't even requiere buying a special model of car. You can go to almost any car shop and ask them to modify your vehicle for around 350 USD and presto, you got yourself an hybrid car. Of course the only reason everyone does this is because gasoline is just too expensive, and natural gas is like 7 dollars a full tank. We are even exporting some of the technology, last I heard.

Re:Good step but a little late

[mrchaotica]

Yeah, what they really need are hybrid natural-gas cabs.

Re:Good step but a little late

[Anonymous Coward]

I find it very funny how 'international' is used as 'outside the US'. 'international cities' is a wonderful example of that :-)

Re:Good step but a little late

[dtungsten]

You say that as if by being "late" makes it not work. It's never too late to start doing good things. The sooner the better, though.

How about reducing the price of a medallion?

[Anonymous Coward]

The reason NYC cabs suck so much is that there is an absentee landlord system for the licenses. Any city with this system has terrible cabs. The cab driver has to pay an exhorbitant rate to rent the cab or licence from the owner.

The city should issue a cab license to anyone who meet the standards and pays the fee. Let the free market take care of the rest.

Re:Global warming & fundamentalists

[Guano_Jim]

Nice troll.

Your sig says you're ready for the Rapture. It's easy to not give a flying fig about the environment when your ideology says you're going to be transubstantiated into Heaven when the End Times come.

The rest of us would at least like a nice, clean place to do battle with the minions of the Antichrist while you're hobnobbing with Him.

So buy a Prius for the people who aren't raptured on the first round.

Who is paying?

[Geancanach]

Who is going to be paying to replace all of these taxis? The companies who own the taxis and medallions? I've heard that taxi cars are actually replaced pretty often (about every 3 years I think) but will companies risk it? Also, the fact that the 10 inch loss in leg room is such a big deal just shows that we need to lose weight.

Re:Who is paying?

[Anonymous Coward]

What does weight have to do with leg room? If you're fat, does that mean your legs grow longer and you get magically taller? When you lose weight, does your whole body shrink and shrivel up to the size of a small child so you can fit into the tiny backseat of a hybrid? 10 inches is nearly a foot, that's a lot of space. Dumbass.

Re:Who is paying?

[dtungsten]

Also, the fact that the 10 inch loss in leg room is such a big deal just shows that we need to lose weight.

Yeah, because losing weight will shorten your legs, and also miniaturizes suitcases.

running a cab is expensive!

[VoidEngineer]

For those of you who don't live in New York City, you may be interested to know that it can cost upwards of $750,000 to obtain a licence/emblem to operate a yellow-cab. The licenses are actually physical emblems which are welded to the hood of the cab, and if you don't have one of those emblems, you can't paint your cab yellow without it getting impounded. As I understand it, the emblems are minted in a manner similar to how a coin or a police badge is minted.

Anyhow, the city has put a cap on the number of cabs which can operate in Manhattan (something like 200,000 cabs, I think), in part just by not minting and selling any new emblems. The law of supply-and-demand has, naturally, driven the cost of licenses up. Interestingly, a cab emblem is considered a piece of real-estate, as I understand, and can be placed in a will. Furthermore, they're considered suitable collateral for taking out a mortgage or loan similar to a home-equity loan. As I understand it, a motivated cabbie can earn a couple hundred thousand dollars a year. And, as you would expect in such a situation, there have formed many cab-companies which try to gobble up all the emblems that they can and hire imigrant drivers who earn a fraction of the profit they make, the rest going to the owners of the cab companies.

Naturally, there are other limosine and cab services which operate in the city. But they don't get to paint their cars yellow.

Anyhow, the moral of the story is that this is a huge decision, involving what I suspect is a billion dollar industry. I don't know exactly how big the new york yellow-cab industry is, but it's real big. And there's lots of money involved in this decision.

Re:running a cab is expensive!

[PhotoGuy]

Very interesting parent post.

For those who are interested, commercial fishing licenses are similar (at least here on the east cost of Canada, probably elsewhere). They cost hundreds of thousands, people get mortgages to buy them so they can start the trade; they leave them to their hiers or sell them just as property, and there are a limited number given out.

It really was eye opening to see the equity committment required by the fishing trade, on top of the sizable cost of the boat and equipment; it surprised me that taxi licenses in New York are similar.

Re:running a cab is expensive!

[Comatose51]

Wow, that actually explains a lot. When I'm in NYC, I take a "limo" service. These are actual Lincolns operated by Chinese companies. I have a business card with numbers on it. I call service and get picked up in a Lincoln and driven very quickly to where I want to go. Surprisingly, the cost of all this is a fraction of the cost of hailing a cab. The only downside is that you have to call in advance to be picked up and you have to speak Chinese. Otherwise, it's much better than taxis. I always wondered how it was possible for them to be that cheap while operating Lincolns. Your post explains a lot of it. These limo services apparently spread by word of mouth.

Re:running a cab is expensive!

[tomlouie]

I've found car services in NYC (esp. the Lincoln company) to be very good. You can sit up front with the driver if you want, chat with them, etc. And a Lincoln towncar is a much more comfortable ride compared to a crown vic, esp over potholes.

Tom

Re:running a cab is expensive!

[Mr]-[at]

As someone who maintains the www.nyc.gov/taxi site let me point out that we have average prices for medallions (pdf, updated monthly) posted here.

Also, TLC plans to sell up to 300 additional taxicab medallions at auction this year (also follow above link to learn about the tins :)

Re:running a cab is expensive!

[Anonymous Coward]

"But they don't get to paint their cars yellow."

More importantly the other services don't get to pick people up on the street either. The idea of a modern taxi cab in cities like New York and London is that it's essentially public transport. Anyone can hail any cab off the street and pay a rate set by government to travel within the city. So it's like being able to catch a bus between any two points in the city.

But to make this work, taxi cab drivers and companies must be trusted by the city's people. So they are heavily regulated by government, their numbers tightly restricted and the rates set to ensure that they make a healthy profit (to discourage the criminal influences associated with poverty). Drivers are subject to testing for competence and reliability and often to random drink/ drugs tests, as well as background checks to ensure they have no history of violence or dangerous driving. Cars are typically age-limited and class restricted so that taxi cabs tend to look the same, and are in good working order.

This means that when you see a taxi light heading towards you and stick your arm out you can be confident - before you so much as see the driver's face - that you'll get to your destination safely, in relative comfort and for a fair price.

In contrast a private hire company is free to charge whatever they like subject to normal consumer protection rules. They can hire anyone with a clean license and minimal background checks. They can choose a vehicle that suits their business (brand new stretch limo, 15 year old Vauxhall Cavalier) so long as it's road legal. They can usually have arbitrary policies about who they'll take, and where in the city they'll take them (e.g. women only, or just airport runs) and so on because if you don't like the policies of one private hire company just choose another.

The law preventing you from hailing a private hire company's vehicles is to protect you from rogue drivers. By demanding that you call someone else to arrange the hire in advance the government creates a paper trail that can be used to identify and prosecute drivers who commit crime, whether it's ripping off their passengers, or in the worst case kidnapping and killing them. It also (since the competition and lower regulatory overhead mean lower prices for private hire) rewards people who plan ahead, cutting down on the number of cars idly cruising the streets.

Re:running a cab is expensive!

[zorander]

The town car and crown vic are built on the same platform...I call bullshit on the suspension argument. The crown-vics they drive these days are extremely well outfitted.

The cabs in new york have leather seats, separate rear climate control and are very, very clean (at least as of two weeks ago. Have things changed since the last time I had occasion to get into a yellow cab?).

In fact, aside from the color and the means for hailing/payment, I don't see much difference between the two.

Out of curiosity, what does a ride in one of the black ones cost?

Re:running a cab is expensive!

[tomlouie]

I didn't know about the shared Ford panther platform until you mentioned it. I found some interesting stuff here:

http://www.answers.com/topic/lincoln-town-car
http://www.answers.com/topic/ford-crown-victoria

I haven't been in a NYC crown vic cab since after 1998, so it could be that recent crown vics are as cushy as the linc townies.

I can tell you that subjectively, the towncar felt like a smoother nicer ride than crown vics at the time (early 90s). It could have been that the fleet of lincs were newer than your average yellow cab, that the cars were better maintained, that their drivers were more cautious, that the interior trim gave better noise insulation, etc etc.

As for price, it's been a while, so I can't recall. But in general, it's a pre-agreed amount that they will tell you over the phone when you book the car.

Tom

Re:Global warming & fundamentalists

[Anonymous Coward]

How is he a troll?! He is presenting another side of the argument and he did so in a kind manner. Apparently that isn't allowed here.

Just because you disagree doesn't mean it's a troll.

Re:Global warming & fundamentalists

[Anonymous Coward]

As a Christian I'd just like to let you know we are not all like that whackjob. There are many of us who believe that God wants us to take care of His Creation, not destroy it for selfish ends. I worship God, not Mammon.

One of my favorite quotes is "Don't tell me you are a Christian, let me see that you are a Christian."

So why exactly is this useful?

[jtrainor]

Why would I want to pay an average of 15-20 bucks every time I go out somewhere just because the taxi runs cleaner?

Re:So why exactly is this useful?

[greenhybrid]

Who says you'd be paying more? The TLC actually regulates prices and they're all set at $2.50 + .40/mi or however that goes. Taxi companies pay a small bit more for the car and buy, perhaps, three times less gasoline. Who's payaing extra?

Oblg: ham radio post

[Anonymous Coward]

Woohoo! It's awesome to see a ham radio article on Slashdot. Cheers for posting.

Re:Oblg: ham radio post

[greenhybrid]

Not sure what you mean... could you explain? This has made news from many different media outlets.

Re:Oblg: ham radio post

[Anonymous Coward]

You're kidding, right? ;-)

Re:Oblg: ham radio post

[greenhybrid]

No. And pardon me if I missed some sort of joke or insult.

Why is this relevant?

[thenewcloo]

According to the Coalition Advocating for Smart Transportation (CAST) poll, seven out of ten of the state's citizens support a switch to hybrids."

i'm not really sure why this is relevant. i'm not sure who wouldn't want hybrid cars -- the limiting factor isnt the amount of people who want them, its the money itll take to switch over to them. a more relevant statistic would be how many people who own taxis and taxi services that would like to switch...

$$$! Where from?

[ilyanep]

Now, how much will this cost the taxpayers of New York? Not to be a troll, but regardless of the need to be environmentally green it also helps to be monetarily green.

Not even in the right order of magnitude

[Hungus]

You are off by a bit there .. As of 2004 emblems were selling for record amounts of 386,000 not quite the 750,000 you said and the number of taxicabs is set by law at 11,787, not quite the 200,000 upi claimed. No new taxi licenses have been issued for over half a century, making the taxicab medallion (which is merely an aluminum plaque bolted to the hood of each cab) the central symbol of the regulatory system.

Re:Not even in the right order of magnitude

[mlilback]

Actually, I remember Guiliani issuing a new medallion. He gave it to an immigrant cab driver who had done something heroic (don't remember what, but something like save a child's life). So there has been at least 1 issued in the last 50 years.

Re:Taxis in Rochester?

[DAE51D]

Wow. i was born and raised in rochester till 1996, then moved west. I never thought of Rochester as having taxis driving around like other cities. sure you can CALL one, but I don't think I've ever seen one just driving around looking for a fare. I guess my home-town is growing up... *sniffle*

A Different proposal

[Estragon]

Why not a simpler way to encourage hybrids: You can exchange one current (non-hybrid) medallion for two hybrid medallions. We fill the streets with hybrids, create more competition, and collect more tax revenue.

Re:A Different proposal

[Doc Ruby]

There's already too many cabs on the streets during peaks, for the infrastructure at least. The competition for fares is making for more dangerous driving, especially with cabs stopping mid-street for entry/discharge - the supply/demand ratio is so bad that fleets have gotten a big fare hike to compensate. First we eliminate street parking and daytime truck deliveries, so our arteries aren't clogged. Then we issue extra medallions, mostly for hybrids, along with your tradein scheme, up to the new limit. Let the fleets figure out how to compete for the riders without the obstacles of blocked traffic.

You don't live in the Bay Area.

[MillionthMonkey]

Gas runs at $2.50/gal here. I have a 2001 Prius and it takes $25-26 to fill with about 9-10 gallons(?) of 87 unleaded. (The tank holds 11.9 gal.) For that $26 I get about 450 miles.

The display shows a running histogram of mileage. Generally you get 25 mpg during the first five minutes after a cold start. After that, 50 mpg and above is typical. (On the highway. In the city the car is really miserly with fuel- over 60 mpg.)

There was a recall on the batteries recently, because of some problem with leakage. So I got a brand new battery for free a few months back when the car was at the dealer for regular maintenance. Which is nice, because they're expensive (about $8k I've heard).

One thing you have to watch out for is the LRR (low rolling resistance) tires that are standard on the Prius. They wear out after about 30000 miles. You can replace them with real tires, which last twice as long but incur a 3 mpg fuel penalty. If you figure an average of 45 mpg, you're buying 666 gal of fuel over the lifetime of the tire, costing $1666 at $2.50 per gallon (Bay Area). So that times 3/45 is in the ballpark of about $100 of saved fuel- about 25 gallons. It's probably cost effective to replace the tires but environmental and laziness concerns have to be weighed in as well. (All these numbers are from memory, so I may be a bit off.)

MixedPower.com Has a Lot More Hybrid Car Info

[curran]

This had a little bit more in-depth discussion a few weeks ago at http://www.mixedpower.com/

Regarding Hybrid Cars - Check out the gas savings calculator at http://www.mixedpower.com/ to see how much you can save with a hybrid vehicle. Most people are prety surprised at how quickly you recoup the "extra" cost, especially with rising gas prices.

If you are interested in Hybrid vehicles there is a lot more information there as well. The forums havea lot of good information and theres even a free buy and sell for hybrid stuff.

Cheers!

Re:MixedPower.com Has a Lot More Hybrid Car Info

[greenhybrid]

I highly discourage anyone from using that website. The owner violates copyright laws and steals its content from other sources.

Re:MixedPower.com Has a Lot More Hybrid Car Info

[YrWrstNtmr]

umm...that 'calculator' misses one HUGE data point. The extra purchase price of the hybrid.

A new hybrid is only cost effective after several hundred thousand miles over the cost of a similar conventional new car. Say buying a new Civic vs. a new Civic Hybrid.

Sometimes, never. Compare a $10k Kia with a $20K Honda Hybrid. Unless you keep the car forever...it never equals out.

Re:MixedPower.com Has a Lot More Hybrid Car Info

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, chill out. I remember you spamming the message boards on that site when you started yours and I've seen the discussion boards at your site where he stated something like "the idea is to spread the word"

Re:MixedPower.com Has a Lot More Hybrid Car Info

[UCFFool]

Wow Daniel, you really do peddle your website wherever you go don't you? I wouldn't mind if you weren't so persistently placing MULTIPLE links per posting... not even a DIRECT link to the calculator in the second link.
-1 Troll
Ever consider that insightcentral.net became popular because it was reliable, clean and innovative, and you've already been through 2 revisions of your sight with constant 'link' bombardment?

Re:MixedPower.com Has a Lot More Hybrid Car Info

[curran]

Flamebait
-2

Re:MixedPower.com Has a Lot More Hybrid Car Info

[Anonymous Coward]

Lets play with your numbers, and assume you drive just 70 miles per day, and gas doesn't average any more expensive than $2.30/gallon (yeah, right).

That $10K (actually starts at $10,735) Kia Rio is rated at 26mpg city.

Going with the Toyota Prius ($20,810) [price difference: $10,075), you save $12,013 over the course of 10 years. Even if you factor in a replacement battery out of warrenty (IIRC, the battery is warrented for 8 years), you're breaking even.

Going with the Honda Insight Automatic ($19,080) [price difference: $8,345], you save $12,201 over 10 years. After 7 years, you've more than broken even.

For kicks, I'll compare a Kia Sportage ($16,490) to a Ford Escape ($27,560) [price difference: $11,050]. Over 10 years, you save $10,950, meaning you're $100 worse-off *IF* gas doesn't get any more expensive in the next 10 years. (Personally, I think $10 a year is a cheap price to pay for cleaner air, but that's my priorities talking, not yours.)

Now I'll re-run the comparisons above assuming gas averages a more realistic $3.00/gallon over the next 10 years.

Kia Rio vs. Toyota Prius:
$15,669(saved) - $10,075(extra cost) = net $5,594
Looks like the break-even point is about 7 years.

Kia Rio vs. Honda Insight:
$15,914(saved) - $8,345(extra cost) = net $7,569
Looks like the break-even point is about 6 years.

Kia Sportage vs. Ford Escape Hybrid:
$18,124(saved) - 11,050(extra cost) = net $7,074
Looks like the break-even point is about 6 years.

Re:MixedPower.com Has a Lot More Hybrid Car Info

[YrWrstNtmr]

70 miles a day, every day, for 7 years is ~180,000 miles. How many 'real world' cars have YOU had go to that mileage? I haven't had any. My high point was 160k with a 1990 Chevy minivan, although my current Ford truck is well on its way at 125k.
And 70 miles a day, every day, is a LOT for most people. Yes, I know SoCal people do a lot of miles commuting daily. But most people don't. My current commute is 8 miles each way. 70 miles per week more like it. And when it's not 98 degrees, or snowing, I usually ride my bike. Unlimited mpg...:)

I'm not saying saving gas and emissions is a bad thing, or something not to be sought. Far from it. But if we're going to do these calsulations, we have to actually look at the numbers that pop out. All of them.

"Green" Taxis

[bobcat7677]

So what's the big deal? I saw THOUSANDS of green taxis in Mexico City last time I was there. They all appeared to be made by volkswagen. And from the looks of them, they have had them there for many years!

Good pictures here: http://www.manganese.com/presentations/2004_interi m_results/index_files/TextMostly/Slide13.html

I guess NY is just catching up with the rest of the world now???

forgotten citation

[Hungus]

I should have pointed out that the information I quoted came almost completely dirrectly from schallerconsult.com

Aren't hybrids terrible for city traffic?

[hirschma]

I thought that hybrids were only efficient for highway driving, but not so great for stop-and-start traffic - and that "leadfoot" drivers also further reduce the efficiency (since the internal combustion engine is never shut down that way).

Am I missing something? Or is NYC seeing hybrids as a panancea that won't work? Perhaps just having smaller cars is the answer. And perhaps pouring the money into further improvements for public transport make even more sense. How about tax breaks for folks _without_ cars?

I'm largely ignorant about hybrids, so I'm not trolling, I'm asking. I did lookup up "Prius FAQ" on Google, and found this:

"Short trips KILL gas mileage." Isn't that what taxis do all day? Make lots of short trips?

jh

Re:Aren't hybrids terrible for city traffic?

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought that hybrids were only efficient for highway driving, but not so great for stop-and-start traffic

Wrong. Hybrids use regenerative braking, to recover the energy of motion when you stop. That reduces the energy wasted by starting & stoping.

But regerative braking makes no difference on a highway where you don't normally stop.

Of course, hybrids tend to have small gas engines and be fuel efficient in other ways, which helps on the the highway. But the big advantage is for start & stop driving.

and that "leadfoot" drivers also further reduce the efficiency (since the internal combustion engine is never shut down that way).

Leadfoot drivers always get worse mileage, for any vehicle.

"Short trips KILL gas mileage." Isn't that what taxis do all day? Make lots of short trips?

Correct. But a hybrid will waste much less energy on a short trip than a regular car.

Re:Aren't hybrids terrible for city traffic?

[dtungsten]

How about tax breaks for folks _without_ cars?

They already have one, in the form of not having to license their cars.

Re:Aren't hybrids terrible for city traffic?

[Dwedit]

You have it completely backwards. Hybrids do better in city traffic than highways.

Re:Aren't hybrids terrible for city traffic?

[tcgroat]

The short-trip penalty comes from warming up a cold engine, adjustments necessary to keep the engine running when cold (richer mixture, faster idle) and increased drag from cold lubricants. These same conditions (and cold catalytic converters) mean cold starts account for more pollution per mile than running at normal temperatures. A taxi doesn't shut down the engine for long, so it stays warm and seldom operates under cold-start conditions. Each fare may be a short ride cross-town, but the cab's engine runs for almost the entire shift. Hybrid drive is a good fit for taxicab service.

Re:Aren't hybrids terrible for city traffic?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, hybrids have better city mileage than they do highway mileage. For example the Prius gets 60 mpg city and 51 mpg highway...

Re:Aren't hybrids terrible for city traffic?

[Vitamin P]

How about tax breaks for folks _without_ cars? Or how bout tax breaks for people that can afford their own tzx breaks. This is BS... I smoke and contribute more in taxes than someone that doesn't. My gas prices rise exactly the same as someone that doesn't partake in the "sin" taxes. Hell I am on a fixed income.... my income is fixed on the amount of hours I am forced to work. I want a tax break. I am forced to live under a budget why isn't everyone else also forced to live under a budget. If I ran my life like the government I would probably be in jail for not paying my bills each month.

Re:Aren't hybrids terrible for city traffic?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, hybrids excel in stop-and-go traffic because the hybrid system recovers kinetic energy when stopping and releases kinetic energy when going, rather than wasting it through friction braking. When the power requirement is steady it's generally more efficient to drive directly off the gasoline engine.

Short trips hurt fuel efficiency if the trip starts with the cold engine. Taxis may have short trips, but I don't think their engines are shut off very often between trips.

The current generation Toyota Prius helps the cold-start problem by storing hot coolant in a thermos bottle when the engine is shut off. The next time the engine is turned on (cold start) the hot coolant in the thermos bottle is circulated through the engine to rapidly warm it up.

Why not go diesel?

[David Horn]

Why don't they just run diesel engines? 50+ MPG, excellent performance, low emissions, and non of the hassle with batteries or motors.

Re:Why not go diesel?

[otis wildflower]

Because they spend so much time idling in traffic?

Re:Why not go diesel?

[Anonymous Coward]

Probably because diesels are an environmental disaster, despite getting good MPG:

http://www.brightsurf.com/news/oct_02/AGU_news_102 202.html

A bunch of new research shows they're much worse for greenhouse effects than normal gasoline cars.

Re:Why not go diesel?

[David Horn]

Which is what a diesel is good at. An idling diesel uses next to no fuel, whereas an idling petrol just drinks the stuff down.

Re:Why not go diesel?

[clean_stoner]

I know that diesel exhaust gives me headaches (more so than gasoline exhaust), and if that's a common problem it might have something do with it. I couldn't handle a city street with umpteen diesel taxis.

Re:Why not go diesel?

[wytcld]

Don't diesels still have about fifty times the particulate emission of gas rigs -- and that being a mess of particularly dangerous (to human lungs) particles at that? The diesel exhaust from buses and trucks in cities is already thought a major contributor to the asthma epidemic. Might be better to ban diesels from cities altogether. Make the merchandise ride in on (electric) trains and distribute it by electric trucks. Most of the car and truck traffic in NYC is doing nothing but irritate the real New Yorkers, who are generally walking, or on the subway.

Re:Why not go diesel?

[taylork]

Ultra-low-sulfur diesel will be used in the US & Canada starting in 2007 (97% cleaner the current). That article doesn't address that.

Re:Why not go diesel?

[tepples]

Don't diesels still have about fifty times the particulate emission of gas rigs -- and that being a mess of particularly dangerous (to human lungs) particles at that? The diesel exhaust from buses and trucks in cities is already thought a major contributor to the asthma epidemic.

You're probably thinking of dinodiesel, not biodiesel.

Re:Why not go diesel?

[mdfst13]

"You're probably thinking of dinodiesel, not biodiesel."

Someone else in the thread posted http://www.brightsurf.com/news/oct_02/AGU_news_102 202.html

Note that the problem is unburned carbon. This is just as much a problem in biodiesel as in well diesel.

Re:Why not go diesel?

[tempfile]

Carbon filters have existed for a while now, and they will even be mandatory soon in a few EU countries. That would not really be a problem.

Re:Why not go diesel?

[krsjuan]

That article also doesn't meNtion bio-diesel.

Re:Why not go diesel?

[zorander]

Right. So we're going to need:

1. Laws mandating carbon filters

2. Production/distribution architecture for carbon filters for a wide variety of vehicles

3. A way to coerce everyone running a diesel engine currently to switch to them

4. A source of biodiesel in large quantities

5. A transportation infrastructure for biodiesel, in large quantities

This sounds like a pipe dream. Sure if you changed the whole world, it would be perfect. Guess what--gradual change is all that's going to happen. We can't convert to biodiesel overnight, no matter how environmentally sound or wonderful it is. Mandatory in "a few EU countries" doesn't translate to mandatory and implemented on every diesel vehicle in New York. Keep in mind that in the US, most consumer goods (and we consume a lot) are transported by (hideously inefficient) diesel trucks. There's going to be a lot of resistance to anything that increases the cost, even momentarily. Can you _introduce_ biodiesel in quantity at a price that competes with ordinary diesel while providing nationwide availability?

Re:Why not go diesel?

[otis wildflower]

Leaving aside the particulates factor, NOx increases ozone, and urban areas tend to suffer from a 'heat island' effect which exacerbates ozone.

This is true even for cities that don't suffer from inconvenient geography, like LA or Mexico City.

Again, a hybrid diesel that shuts down entirely and runs on batteries (with regenerative braking) in stop-n-go traffic would be fine. But even with particulate traps and urea injection the optimal urban solution would be not to emit in the first place.

Besides, hybrids that can run on battery-only are quieter, and as big a fan as I am of diesels, they are not quiet and can't really be made to be. Most if not all urban areas suffer from significant noise pollution as it is.

Re:Taxis in Rochester?

[TheKidWho]

You can by the bust station and airport :-P

Pain in the ass expensive to get a ride to school from one though :-/

Maybe from taxi fares?

[Anonymous Coward]

Probably not so much in taxes as in increases in taxi fares.

What's an extra $20 on your taxes when you I'm paying an extra $2 for every taxi ride?

And don't complain that this in taxes would be taken from people who don't ride taxis. It's your air too (I don't really care what kind of taxi I ride in).

As Far As I'm Concerned...

[LEX LETHAL]

There should be national support and a firm deadline for the conversion of all public service vehicles to hybrid technology. Something along the lines of "all hybrid by 2008" .

With respect to hybrid, there should be no reason why fleet vehicles that are either fully owned or subsidized by local governments are not already on a program with an equally agressive posture. Most of us in the USA already see some kind of eBus or hybrid vehicle presence in daily use for public rapid transport. They are still so novel that I take the time to notice and admire that this is one more step in the right direction. I'm not referring to the overhead "bumper car" style electric busses or trolleys, but the true free-drive busses used for inner city and rural public transport. What I'm proposing is the conversion of the entire fleet in every American city, and a deadline to back it up.

I know the article is about taxicabs, but if owner-operators can make the leap in New York, why can't it work also on the national level as a mandate for the conversion of all public service vehicles? The sheer number of vehicles sold should be incentive enough for all auto manufacturers that have (or will have) a hybrid vehicle in their lineup to become involved in garnering support from appointed public officials and their constituents.

How can a complete conversion of fleet vehicles, especially public service inner city or rural transportation, not make sense everywhere? People will still have their SUVs and QuadCabs as a means to get around for personal transport, and rightly so. However, when you choose to ride public transport - school busses included - you would do so on a vehicle that was part of a comprehensive national fuel conservation and toxic emissions reduction agenda.

Hybrid yes, tiny car absolutely NOT!!!!

[otis wildflower]

NYC taxis already suck. The Crown Vics are absolutely awful: no rearseat leg room whatsoever.

I'm all for hybrid taxis, but definitely not hybrid economy car taxis. No hybrid SUV taxis either: those things haven't got enough rear seat legroom either.

Hybrid minivans or London-style taxis? All for it!

Re:Hybrid yes, tiny car absolutely NOT!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Holy crap, the only car you have enough legroom in is a London taxi? Those things are so big they have extra pull-down seats facing the other way. They're still spacious with 5 people in the back.

You must be that guy from the Simpsons with the 1.5 metre long legs.

Re:Hybrid yes, tiny car absolutely NOT!!!!

[slash.dt]

Hybrid minivans or London-style taxis? All for it!

Now what we need is a hybrid London cab - that would be perfect.

Seriously, I always wondered why London cabs aren't being used in NYC - it has a huge capacity for people and luggage and the leg room is enormous.

Maybe because they are not american cars?

19 million

[drewness]

there's over 8 million people in the area

According to the census bureau, it's 19,190,115 people. So, yeah, over 8 million.

Re:19 million

[ericspinder]

According to the census bureau, it's 19,190,115 people.

If you take a better look at that page, you will find that you have confused the STATE of New York, rather than the City of NY (AKA NYC), if you are going to include Buffalo,NY as being 'in the area' you should consider including Washington, DC and Boston because they're closer.

According to the NYC dept of city planning the Census Bureau believes that there were in 8,104,079 people in the five boroughs of NYC as of July 2004.

Re:19 million

[Anonymous Coward]

Rock on, Ohio State. Way to use that education of yours.

Re:19 million

[drewness]

Curses! Bad reading on my part for sure. Actually, it makes me feel better to know that NYC has only 4 times the population of the greater Columbus, OH area instead of 10 times. Much easier to wrap my head around. Must be my Ohioan inferiority complex that made me believe NYC is so much bigger.

Re:19 million

[doppe1]

I think you are being a bit misleading here.

If you only take the 5 boroughs of New York, then yes there is 8,085,742 people.

Columbus, OH = 728,432 people.

Source http://www.citypopulation.de/USA.html

But if you look at the metropolitan population, ie local area but spread beyond the city limits, then the figures are

NYC = 18,640,775 people

Colombus, OH = 1,674,589 people.

Source http://www.citypopulation.de/USA-Metro.html

Then the rest of New York State outside of the New York City Metro area makes up less than 1 million people.

Re:19 million

[ericspinder]

Sorry, but that's apples to oranges, the greater NYC area, has an estimated population of around 22 million. Really it depends on how you define 'area'

Don't feel bad, all of my girl friends have told me that "bigger isn't aways better" ;) (Just Kidding!)

Re:19 million

[drewness]

Foiled again! Although that number is pretty close to what I originally said, which leads me to believe I saw a number like that somewhere.

For Columbus it's pretty easy to define the 'area'. There's Columbus proper, then head out any direction , go past the outerbelt, go through a suburb, et voila: CORN! Or said in a less silly way, it's all of Franklin county, although soon enough Columbus will swallow up Delaware to the north too. Muhaha.

Re:19 million

[lovswr]

Yeah, right just dig it into the guy from the Greater Dayton Metro Area... :)

Re:19 million

[ericspinder]

I had wanted to add a number to that post, I came up with 8.1 from that site I eventually linked. When I first saw your post I thought 'damn, I got nailed on the metro size', but alas the page said "NY State" and I could once again 'prove' my alpha geek status!

Good luck on the conquest of the City of Delaware, however the State of Delaware remains safely out of your reach.

Re:19 million

[mdfst13]

"Then the rest of New York State outside of the New York City Metro area makes up less than 1 million people"

By your same source, Buffalo and Syracuse *each* have more than a million people in their respective metropolitan areas.

Most of the 10.5 million people who live in the NYC metropolitan statistical area (MSA) but not in the city itself live outside of NY state, e.g. NJ. Probably only one to three million actually live in NY state. The source you cite also has a map which shows a substantial population in NJ suburbs of NYC.

This is also true of Philadelphia, Kansas City, and other cities that are near the borders of their states. MSAs are not restricted to single states.

Crown Vics suck.

[otis wildflower]

Get minivans or other taller vehicles. Crown Vics don't have shit for legroom, especially with the bulletproof divider that's installed for taxi use.

TLC has permitted some other vehicle types for taxis, and by far my favorite is the Honda Odyssey. Nice and tall, great legroom and cargo capacity.

Of course, I'd also love the London cab.

And there's no technical reason why any of those couldn't have hybrid powertrains, or LNG.

Where's the source?

[jonbrewer]

The poster claims: Soon, a large portion of New York's yellow cars will also be "green."

I would counter with an article I read in June in the Times:

In summary, the only push for green taxis so far has been a trio of operators who purchased discount medallions from the city and then couldn't use them b/c there were no hybrids approved as taxis.

Hybrid Taxis Encounter Catch-22 Of Regulation

By SEWELL CHAN (NYT) 989 words
Late Edition - Final , Section B , Page 1 , Column 5

"Last October, New York City officials held a special auction of 27 heavily discounted taxi medallions that could be used only with cabs powered by natural gas or by a combination of gasoline and electricity. ... Eighteen of the licenses were sold, at an average price of $222,743, one-third less... "

The infrastructure invested in the current NYC yellow taxi fleet, which happens to be almost exclusively Ford Crown Victoria, is not small. Savings on Petrol will not offset the costs of changing vehicles and support infrastructure. While the poster says "soon", I don't see "a large portion" of cabs going green before 2010.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Well..

[Grendel Drago]

Eyem gwad yoo cud unnerstam dis. Kno kneed too trie annd speel rite, becuz yoole ghet wot eye meen. Afftr al, das wot kownts, rite?

--grendel drago

Re:Well..

[ericspinder]

Har har, but a more proper response would be...

IGTYUT NNTTASRBYGWIM. AA, TWKR?

AFAIK it's not illegal to have a meme in a post but of course IANAL, so don't mistake my opinion for legal advice.

Re:Bloomberg

[ViciousVII]

I like your use of bold letters to try and help push your agenda across. We should all believe the bold words without any proof.

F1's ok but later?

[philge]

Hybid vigour is common in the F1, allthough haldane's rule may cause some issues. However we may see hybird breakdown in f2 and subsequent generations.

Re:F1's ok but later?

[Anonymous Coward]

I doubt even the Slashdot crowd will be able to appreciate that one.

less emission just at the tailpipe?

[walterbyrd]

Do hybrids actually mean less total emissions? Or just less at the tailpipe?

Re:less emission just at the tailpipe?

[arodland]

Is this supposed to make sense? Do you actually know what a hybrid is? With a hybrid, the only thing that goes in is gas. Less gas consumed per mile, less emissions at the tailpipe, how could that not be less emissions? Unless the battery is in some way incredibly environmentally-unfriendly -- but even then, one battery is supposed to last for a few hundred thousand miles.

Re:less emission just at the tailpipe?

[mls]

There is the environmental cost of the manufacturing process. However, unless some really toxic methods or materials are used to build and maintain these cars, they are probably still better off than the alternative.

This might not be true with a hydrogen powered car that gets it's hydrogen extracted from a water source by a 50% efficient coal powered generation plant.

Re:less emission just at the tailpipe?

[arodland]

That's what I was going for with the battery comment -- on the assumption that the battery is the most important difference between a hybrid and a conventional car, as far as potential environmental impact. (Anything that's in common doesn't really factor in).

Re:less emission just at the tailpipe?

[Anonymous Coward]

Do hybrids actually mean less total emissions? Or just less at the tailpipe?

Just less at the tailpipe. Even if all cars sold today were hybrids, there would still be a net increase in environmentally harmful emissions year over year, for cars are being added to roadways at too great a rate.

This is why zero emission and negative emission vehicles are crucial toward making significant environmental progress; hybrid vehicles alone are insufficent.

For those who are unfamiliar with the concept of negative emissions vehicles: a negative emissions vehicle is one in which the emissions content of air exiting the vehicle is less than that of the emisions content of air entering the vehicle. I.e. the air comes out cleaner than when it went in. Most fuel cell based vehicles, such as those planed by GM, Honda, and others, are (to some extent) negative emmissions vehicles.

That was the last thing NY needed

[SuperKendall]

Electric cabs that hence make no noise as they approach? Have you guys ever seen NY cabbies drive?

Talk about silent but deadly!

re: reducing the rules for running a taxie...

[Univac_1004]

...is a bad idea.

A passenger car goes from start to finish and then stops.

A taxi goes from start to finish and then cruises around looking for the next start (I used to drive one, so I know).

Which is the least polluting plan?

Better: make all cars hybrid.

More Better: make all cars hydrogen.

Best: everybody stay at home an telecommute. (and make all pizza delivery cars hybrid.)

Thanks!

[Grendel Drago]

Thank you. If I had learned to associate crucifix pendants and church attendance with people being particularly hardworking, honorable and all-around good, perhaps I'd have a better attitude toward Christians today.

--grendel drago

Here, try these.

[Grendel Drago]

Go make some tea from a hemlock tree. Drink it and tell me that stuff is good for the environment.

Go to a beach where the seawater is as clean as it could possbily be. Drink it and tell me that stuff is good for the environment.

Of course, you're right, but "stick it in your body" isn't a valid litmus test for environmental safety.

--grendel drago

Re:Here, try these.

[Ced_Ex]

Of course, you're right, but "stick it in your body" isn't a valid litmus test for environmental safety.

So what would you suggest would be a valid test?

Isn't the suspended airborne particulate matter from carbon burning machines enough of a reason?

Which hybrid will be the preferred model.

[Yankel]

I think the biggest obstacle getting hybrid taxis on the road is the lack of taxi-sized cars with hybrid engines. I was in New York last year and their cabs have quite a few safety mods for the driver and passenger.

For instance, there's a wall between the driver and the passenger side of the cabin. That's going to be pretty tough to squeeze into any car smaller than a Crown Vic.

This is a problem specific to New York cabs. And loosening up the specs for taxis may not be the answer -- they were put there for a reason.

This won't be a problem in cities like Toronto and Vancouver, where the Prius can already be seen ferrying around people.

The only two large(r) sedans that have hybrid engines are the Prius and the Accord. If the big three were smart, they'd build a hybrid engine for small trucks with their Japanese partners to lower development costs (Ford/Mazda, Chrysler/Mitsubishi, GM/Toyota) and stick those suckers in the Crown Vic/500, Magnum/300 and the Impala/Regal.

You live in Vancouver..

[Anonymous Coward]

..and you call gasoline 'petrol'?

I've lived in Canada all my life and never heard anyone of foreign origin call gas petrol.

I guess it's all the mocking we Canadians do to make you feel welcome in our wonderful country ;)

Leave Paradise?

[lheal]

Once you leave jesusland you see that people don't ride around in pickups all day.

I don't ride around in my pickup all day, either. I only take the pickup if I have stuff to haul, or if I feel like tailgating some Eastern snob in a Prius.

Re:Leave Paradise?

[ryanov]

Nice work. Fell for the flamebait and insulted a bunch of people who weren't involved in the discussion to begin with.

The 2002/2003 models were the loss leaders.

[skids]

The newer Prius models (the hatchbacks that look like a CRX done over for a sci-fi movie) share the mass production lines for the most part, they surely don't cost $40,000 to make. Toyota was asked to estimate how much the hybrid system added to the cost of the Prius for U.S. tax purposes. The figure they came up with was $2k to $3k. Whether that is a reflection of the actual cost at this moment, it is certainly their target.

As far as why hybrids don't already run cab service in NYC, if your RTFA you'll notice that none are yet approved for it by the regulatory commission. Of course since everything is corrupt and mismanaged, what hybrids get approved will probably end up being a story of bribes, kickbacks, and political favors rather than technological suitability.

It's all about the barrier

[jmp_nyc]

Most NYC taxis have a barrier, designed to protect the driver from the passengers. The barrier takes up quite a bit of legroom.

A few years ago, Ford introduced a slightly stretched version of the Crown Vic specifically to offset the thickness of the barrier. The unstretched version sometimes gives less than six inches of knee room between the front of the backseat and the barrier. This has nothing to do with obesity and everything to do with people liking their knees...
-JMP

Ford Escape Hybrid

[Codester]

Some people think hybrid cars cannot have good performances... I tried the Ford Escape Hybrid and it moves like a V6! I'm waiting for the 2nd or 3rd year generation before buying one... to make sure I'm not a "beta tester".

-Code

Re:Ford Escape Hybrid

[ryanov]

And its mileage is not much better than a 4 cyl.

Re:Ford Escape Hybrid

[Codester]

I guess it's ok considering it's a 4x4 SUV... IMO, a good compromise for someone wanting a SUV without burning gas like ice cream in the desert!

Re:Ford Escape Hybrid

[ryanov]

My figures were both for the 2WD.

4WD are a little worse.

Propane cabs

[BlindSpot]

A lot of other cities have public transportation running on propane, etc. Many international cities have seen a lot of cut back in pollution just by switching the public transportation to a more environment friendly energy source.

Calgary cabs did a mass conversion to propane over two decades ago. At the time, petrol was $0.40/L and propane was about $0.08/L, so it was easy to recoup the conversion cost even with the 20-40% efficiency hit of propane.

Now, however, propane costs 60-80% of the cost of petrol, and not surprisingly as cabbies replace their vehicles they haven't been converting. Although you still will get a net savings, it now takes too long to recover the up-front cost of the conversion. Especially when your car now gets 20-30 MPG instead of just 10.

Without significant financial incentives, nobody's going to convert. Sadly, we are still a long way from fuel prices hitting the point that converting off of petrol is a significant incentive in and of itself.

Off-topic a bit, my previous car was an ex-cab that ran on propane. It was sweet to see fuel prices going up and still be filling my car for around $20CDN. Finally fell apart beyond my means, but that was right around the time propane went sharply up in price so I guess it was as good a time as any.

Re:Bloomberg

[sinsofthedove]

Seriously, cab emissions are the least of your worries if you're upset about pollution in New York. Pulling the "save our children" card probably won't work in this situation because, while switching the cab fleet to hybrid cars will reduce some of the air pollution, it won't remove it entirely. Did you ask Bloomberg to shut down nearby industries, ban trucking, and to raise the bridge and tunnel tolls while you were at it? Also - I spent 18 glorious childhood years in New York - my lungs are fine, as is the rest of me. I stayed away from cigarettes and Chinatown in the summer, and it's done me a world of good.

Rickshaw?

[HermanAB]

WTF would a rickshaw do with CNG - Swallow it and then light his farts?

Re:Rickshaw?

[rsidd]

WTF would a rickshaw do with CNG - Swallow it and then light his farts?

"His"? Perhaps "Rick Shaw" is a man but a rickshaw is a machine. (Specifically it's a three wheeled covered contraption whose engine is similar to a scooter's.)

Re:Rickshaw?

[HermanAB]

Real rickshaws are human powered carts. The little motorcycle engined trikes inherited the name, but that doesn't make them real rickshaws.

Re:Rickshaw?

[balster neb]

He obviously meant Autorickshaw, which are motorised rickshaws.

The manual rickshaws remain powered by food, which is converted to energy in a long complicated chemical process.

Diesels

[HermanAB]

Alternatively, you could have bought a diesel. Even less fuel consumption than a hybrid. Diesel is cheaper than petrol too. The trouble with hybrids is that they simply don't make ecomomic sense.

Re:Diesels

[TogusaS9]

Alternatively, you could have bought a diesel. Even less fuel consumption than a hybrid.

The data posted here:

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/mpg.html

which comes from the US Environmental Protection Agency, shows that, of the 10 most-fuel efficient cars currently available, the top 7 are hybrids, with four diesels -- the VW New Beetle, Golf and Jetta (tied for 8th), and the Jetta Wagon (9th) -- coming up just behind. (A caveat: the EPA fuel economy testing methodology unwittingly favors hybrids, but in the real world, hybrids still maintain a significant edge in fuel economy.)

Moreover, diesels typically have worse emissions than hybrids, especially in particulates and greenhouse gases. These figures may improve, however, when federally-mandated low-sulfur diesel fuel begins to be sold in the US starting next year, but how much of an improvement that will be remains to be seen. Even so, hybrid emissions will still likely be lower than those of diesels. See

Diesel is cheaper than petrol too.

Actually, according to the Energy Information Administration (a subdivision of the US Department of Energy), in the United States, diesel fuel is more expensive than gasoline -- on average, prices for diesel fuel are currently 12.2 cents per gallon higher than regular unleaded gasoline, mostly due to higher taxes and refining costs.

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/gdu/gasdiesel.as p

In Britain, it's worse -- according to the Automobile Association, diesel fuel prices last month were 4.1p/liter more than unleaded petrol -- which translates into a whopping 27.6 US cents per gallon difference:

http://www.theaa.com/allaboutcars/fuel/

The trouble with hybrids is that they simply don't make ecomomic sense.

Actually, taking into account the total cost of ownership (fuel and maintenance costs, depreciation and other factors), hybrids may save enough money over the long term to more than make up for the "cost" of the hybrid drive system ($2,500 to $3,000, in the case of the Prius).

Re:Bloomberg

[ryanov]

I'm not sure why either of you are bashing the parent. Everything they've said is correct, despite the pointless bold lettering. I'm sick and tired of people saying that "well, if you can't ban it everywhere, why ban it anywhere?" It is obvious that switching thousands of cars to hybrid is a good idea for those in the city.

No one's mentioned this yet...

[ryanov]

New York might also reduce car pollution by loosening the rules for running a taxi, in order to reduce the need for private cars.

How the hell does that make any sense? NYC is not hurting for cabs whatsoever... go stand on any street and you can see hundreds of them. Why would allowing for MORE taxis reduce the number of cars, OR the amount of pollution? If any Tom, Dick, or Harry could drive his SUV around as a Taxi, we'd all be WORSE off as far as pollution is concerned.

Re:No one's mentioned this yet...

[pimpimpim]

My thoughts exactly. They did something similar in Amsterdam to make the "open market" help "lowering" the prices. Currently it is very very hard to find a taxi that is reasonably modern, because a lot of people started in the taxi business with their 10-year old (polluting!) car, asking just the same price as before, or screwing you by taking huge detours.

The original taxi companies that existed under the stricter rules gave you at least some garantee that you would have a properly trained taxi driver, in a properly maintained taxi.

A few things...

[Caseyscrib]

This hasn't been mentioned yet, but I remember reading about the hybrid taxis at MSNBC a while ago. One of the major concerns was that the Hybrid SUVs would not provide adequate legroom for customers (they have about 10 inches less than crown victorians). The second is that they don't know how well the vehicles would hold up. Other than those 2 issues, it sounded like a the cab companies were interested to see how the trials went.

Oh, and submitter, please don't throw in baseless crap like "Soon, a large portion of New York's yellow cars will also be "green."". This is a trial, and they want to see how it goes. It will still be a few years before any real changes occur, but we are making progress.

Re:A few things...

[Doc Ruby]

I used to ride around in Checker Cabs. They had legroom, but also a couple of extra pop-up seats. Which made things pretty cramped, with maybe 5 people in the back (and maybe 1 or two passengers up front with the driver). But we used to cram into them, to save a buck or two on the collective fare. New Yorkers will do without the legroom. Especially if fares reflect the 50+% fuel savings.

for the average person?

[Anonymous Coward]

For the average person it's unclear.

For a taxi in NYC, hybrid is probably a win. Those batteries will still wear out in 3-5 years, but they'll stand a lot better chance of having saved enough gas to make up for it before they croak.

Now if they just wouldn't use SUVs. How stupid. They could use 33% less gas again (at least) if they had a sedan that fit the bill (apparently the Prius doesn't have enough passenger legroom).

Safety over convenience...

[Anonymous Coward]

Taxi's are regulated because you want people to feel safe getting into a complete stranger's car. I think if Taxi's weren't regulated many, many people would be afraid to use them. Further, it would destroy the taxicab industry, as no one would be able to afford to be a taxicab driver fulltime as during busy seasons they'd be in line with 50,000 unemployed people trying to make a buck and during sparse periods they'd have to haggle the price of a cab down to virtually no profit.

"I would like to slap a taxi sign on my car and drive down to the airport. A couple hours later, I would have enough money to go back to the bar." - I wouldn't want to get in your car, and you don't even have any mischevious intentions."

Yay!

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe now that the taxis have little less acceleration from a complete stop, taxi drivers won't be able to drive as if they were above the law (think GTA-style driving sans the crashes, but with a row of parked cars to separate the pedestrians from traffic).

On the other hand, I wonder what would happen to all the undercover cops who drive taxis. For those who do not live in NYC, there are actually a fair amount of police cars that are marked like and serve as fully-functioning taxis. If all the regular taxis became hybrids in the next few years, I wonder if those undercover taxis will have their power compromised too for the sake of their disguise.

fuel savings: what price gas? (here: 5.5 dollars)

[fantomas]

I guess fuel savings depend on gas. Here in the UK, gas (petrol) is something like 5.5 dollars a gallon (86p a litre standard unleaded x 3.78 (litres in a US gallon) x 1.74 (sterling to dollars). So I am guessing saving fuel is more attractive in the UK (and Europe generally I suppose) than in North America?

From Tesla, electricaly

[nikolag]

Finally! Europe is going for BioDiesel, but NY is going back to the electricity.

It is not widely known, but before we have all sold our souls to gasoline, back in the 1930's, a large number of delivery trucks in NY was running on electricity.

Just by the was, today is a birthday of Nikola Tesla, a genius that invented AC, and many other today-common things. Is it coincidenc?

The Ideal Hybrid Car - Bio-Diesel

[kallistiblue]

I've thought about this and I think that the idea hybrid car would have the following features.

-Reasonable price
-diesel powered

Why?
Well diesel engines only require slight modification to run biodiesel. Biodiesel is a net zero gain carbon fuel.

By this I mean that it's produced from organic crops so the carbon released is mearly absorbed by the next generation of fuel still in the fields.

The USA currently pays farmers $30 billion dollars to not grow crops. Why not pay them to grow Rape Seed and Soy so that the country can create an abundance of Bio-Diesel fuel.

The side advantage is that once the USA became less dependant on the oil of the middle east we would not have to be involved in middle east politics. Without our oil money the middle east would lose it's entire power base.

If we were really smart we would create a Hybrid car that used a sterling engine which is about 2x as effecient as internal combustion engines at extracting fuel power.
Sterling engines are what power nuclear subs. They only problem with Sterling Engines are that they tag 5 min or so to heat up and get miximum efficiency. With a hybrid car this is a moot problem because you can operate on battery power for the first 5 minutes.

Read more about this here:
http://www.hybrid-car-reviews.com/

It's worth adding...

[benhocking]

The Civic Hybrid also qualifies for this AND you do not have to itemize to take advantage of the tax credit!

Present and future

[jfengel]

For me the real question is not the relatively small differences in mileage between diesels, hybrids, and standard cars, but which technology is going to develop in ways to seriously mitigate the real problem.

(I'm not saying the difference is irrelevant, though I'd much rather see US fuel economy standards rise, since those differences would matter a lot more if it applied to the millions of cars we introduce rather than the few thousand that go to the economically-minded.)

Diesels are very promising because we may be able to run them on something other than petroleum. Whether the biodiesel is more promising than ethanol-based solutions I'm not in a position to say.

And it may work to combine the best of both, putting a diesel engine in with a hybrid. Research into hybrids may also be useful if it can be combined with a different power plant (a fuel cell, or a hydrogen cell, for example.)

Today I think that individuals will make choices but they're going to make relatively trivial contributions to the overall problems of petroleum: pollution, greenhouse gases, diminishing supplies, support for repressive regimes that happen to have oil. The last is most important to me, but they're all good reasons and no matter which ones you support we're going in the same direction.

About the best you can hope for, I think, is to buy a diesel or a hybrid to send a message that you don't just want to keep doing what you've always done, and are willing to pay a premium to do it. If that encourages the auto manufacturers to put more research into higher-mileage cars and other technological advances, that's going to make a far bigger difference than a few MPG.

Re:Present and future

[bluGill]

Don't forget ethanol. Some claim it costs more energy than you save, but those claims are not well backed up. A regular car (anything since the 1970s) can run on pure ethanol with just a change of the injectors. Buying a car that can run on E-85 sends the same message. Plus you save ~$.50/gallon. (though most cities don't have pumps)

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[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:fuel savings: what price gas? (here: 5.5 dollar

[drew]

Yes it is, which I imagine is one of the reasons Europe tends to have smaller cars, more diesels, and better public transportation than the U.S.

however, if saving money on fuel is the only deciding factor, it's probably still not worth getting a hybrid over a non-hybrid at current prices. Assuming it still costs about $5000 more to buy a Prius than a similar Corolla, paying European prices for gas instead of American prices for gas would only mean that you would make that $5000 back in fuel savings after 117,000 miles driven instead of 285,000 miles driven (even using rather optimistic fuel economy figures for the Prius) In other words, you might make that money back in the lifetime of the car if you never have to pay to replace the batteries. This is disregarding any tax incentives for buyinig a hybrid vehicle.

The numbers I used for those calculations, in case anyone is interested in double checking the math:
Prius fuel economy: 50 mpg
Corolla fuel conomy: 38 mpg
American price of gas: $2.25
European price of gas: $5.50

Idiotic legislation

[hcdejong]

The blurb suggests that TLC decides which cars can be used as a taxi. Why on earth would a government commission have anything to say about that?