VoIP Providers Worry as FCC Clams Up

phoneboy writes "By the end of next week, Voice over IP providers must advise all subscribers of any 911 service limitations and get "affirmative acknowledgment" that customers understand that VoIP 911 service is not the same as landline 911 by July 29. What happens if the customers don't affirm? The FCC isn't saying."

Comments

Article Summary

[hjo3]

VoIP providers don't know what's gonna happen. Lots of lawyers try to pretend they know. FCC sticks with "no comment." In the end, everyone does whatever they want.

I'll tell you what happens..

[MoceanWorker]

As a Vonage customer.. I have received numerous notifications (ok, i'm lazy) to activate the E911. Just last week, I got what I perceive as threats from Vonage, claiming that if i DON'T activate my E911 service, they WILL discontinue my service immediately.

I understand their reason for pushing this, but the discontinuation is such a lazy way for them to just say "ok, so when the FCC checks us out, we don't have to worry about that guy because they won't know if he did/didn't sign up for E911".. problem solved, sadly..

This should be totally optional to the customer. If they don't want to set it up.. fine.. that's their problem, not OURS..

Vonage.. your prices are great.. your image as a company not giving into the FCC and protecting your customers.. horrible..

Re:I'll tell you what happens..

[onion2k]

No. It really should not be up to the customer, simply because if there's an emergency you might have someone else trying to use your phone. If you slip and impale yourself in the neck on a kitchen knife a friend of yours might try to call help on your phone.. because, quite rightly, everyone expects every single phone everywhere should be able to call 911 at any time.

Re:I'll tell you what happens..

[BackInIraq]

This should be totally optional to the customer. If they don't want to set it up.. fine.. that's their problem, not OURS...

Yes, it should be, and if the US weren't so sue-happy, it probably would be. As it stands, they are much less likely to be sued by forcing you to activate E911 than by allowing you to not have it. Because even if they had paperwork on file with your signature declining E911 service, they have no guarantee that that paperwork won't get lost...and in the event of your untimely death, in which a lack of 911 covereage was a factor, the inability to produce that document has the possibility of making your family very, very rich.

Of course, the easiest course of action to take would be a waiver, on the initial service contract, that explains that they make no guarantees whatsoever regarding 911 service. It might scare off a few customers, but it would cover their ass pretty effectively (because every customer would have signed it, regardless of whether they set up E911), and prevent stupid situations like what's happening to you.

Re:I'll tell you what happens..

[LiquidCoooled]

Which address do I tell the VOIP service to pass onto 911?

Using a laptop and roaming means I may connect from anywhere.
Its useless sending emergency services to my home when I'm lying in a ditch somewhere.

Re:I'll tell you what happens..

[kesuki]

It's more than just 'normal caller id' ever called a pizza place? if you've enver ordered from them, they ask you your address... they have caller id on the computers they use to take the orders..

911 operation centers have a customer address database, provided to them by the telcos, governed by FCC rules. and 911 center calls are treated differently than normal calls too, they get the highest routing priority (meaning if you've been chatting on a circuit for hours on end*, and the circuits are 'loaded' and someone tries to call 911, your call will get dropped) In addition, if you've opted to have your caller id blocked completely (not even a number shows up) your number will Still Show up for 911 operations.

This is all because of FCC regs. And yeah, DSL uses a circuit too, but telcos went whole hog increasing the number of circuits available because of dialup, and the fact that many people continue to use dialup.. and modern systems no longer require the dialup isp to maintin a seperate circuit for each and every dialup user, because they have a 'digitial' connection... Also DSL can optionally be a 'dedicated' circuit meaning every other non dedicated circuit would have to be occupied by a 911 call for it to be dropped. something that can happen, in a disaster.. but not normally.

*= this happened a lot when i used dialup, every 2-3 days or so, circuits would get loaded for whatever reason, and my call would get dropped because it became lowest priority, if circuits cleared i would reconnect, but sometimes it took 5 or more minutes for enough circuits to clear...

Re:I'll tell you what happens..

[Ex Machina]

They usually have either an actual GPS chip and/or some stuff to assist in location triangulation from cell towers. This is usually mentioned as "enhanced 911".

Re:I'll tell you what happens..

[SomeoneGotMyNick]

Even my cheap cell phone has GPS in it. I can't go geocaching with it, but it's a basic feature for them to be able to locate me in an emergency. In fact, I recommend everybody who is concerned about their 911 coverage from VoIP service to just buy a cheap pay as you go phone. IIRC, you can still make 911 calls on a cell phone without having an active service plan. A cheap VirginMobile K7 would do the trick. Or any GPS capable phone from eBay.

Re:I'll tell you what happens..

[squiggleslash]

You may be, but that's your own problem. If you're one of the 1% of Vonage customers who actually uses it using a laptop where you might concievably be anywhere, then you're just going to have to give an address where you're most likely to be at, and then avoid using the service for 911 calls.

The FCC has been pretty reasonable on this one. They're not asking anyone to put GPS devices in laptops or create some kind of database of every IP address known to man. They've said that VoIP providers are to get an address from every single customer to say where they are, and put the onus on those customers to keep the VoIP provider updated should they move around. Obviously, if you use your VoIP as a mobile phone, which is, frankly, bizarre, then you have to recognize 911 isn't going to be that useful to you. Which it isn't today either.

I'm staggered by the outright stupidity of most Slashdotters on this subject. They assume, without bothering to read a line of the FCC stuff, that the FCC doesn't understand the basic issues concerning VoIP and have simply mandated something completely idiotic. In fact, the FCC has mandated this to make VoIP credible. The big issue here wasn't that VoIP providers didn't want to provide 911 services, it was that incumbent carriers refused to allow VoIP to peer with them for 911, so VoIP providers couldn't provide proper 911.

To solve this, the FCC has said: (1) VoIP providers need to be upfront and honest about the limitations of their services as-is. (2) They need to get customers to provide information on their whereabouts and provide the means for those customers to update that information in a timely manner. and, the biggy, (3) local carriers must work with VoIP providers. If you choose, as a customer, to not provide your VoIP carrier with timely updates, then that's your problem, not the VoIP supplier. The FCC isn't saying otherwise.

So relax.

Re:I'll tell you what happens..

[Nos.]

And what if I'm using my VoIP phone in my basement... no GPS signal there. Or in a large building, no signal there. There is no reliable way at this time to give an accurate physical location automatically to a 911 call centre when you are using VoIP. Canada went through this same issue recently and the CRTC decided that VoIP providers had to inform customers of these limitations. In fact, most VoIP providers have had to setup call centers that will take the initial 911 call, and by hand, route the call to the appropriate 911 call centre since there is no reliable way to do it automatically.

Re:I'll tell you what happens..

[sharkey]

Obviously, if you use your VoIP as a mobile phone, which is, frankly, bizarre

Why is that bizarre? Personally, I find the idea that I should have to stop carrying my notebook PC with me after installing a software phone on it to be a bizarre idea. Seems like portability is the whole pointto me.

Re:Let the FCC take the flak

[aussie_a]

Hopefully the FCC would get enough seriously negative feedback from consumers that they won't try this shit again.

And I'm sure VoIP providers (many of which are commercially run) will be happy to risk the bad publicity. [/sarcasm]

What's more likely is that the VoIP providers will call the FCC's bluff. After all, the FCC might not do anything.

Nanny state

[91degrees]

It's really something where people have to be bullied into doing something that may save their own lives. And then people complain about it.

If everyone was a little less ineptm and a little less ready to blame everyone else we wouldn't need to do this sort of thing.

Concessions...

[Capt James McCarthy]

I have to say that at the price for my Speakeasy VOIP and quality/features I receive from them, I wouldn't care if they told me that 911 doesn't work at all. I hope POTS isn't having 911 be their main selling point. There were days when you wrote emergency numbers by your phone, it's not that tough.

Just do a "Registration Required" for every call

[Mortimer82]

I have to admit this is annoying, but it is the sort of annoying that may be necessary to potentially save lives of those "i'll do it later" but never actually do kind of people.

The companies just need to make it that if you haven't yet set up your E911, whenever you try making a call, before the call connects, it gives a voice prompt telling you that E911 is not yet set up, and without it you may have difficulty making emergency calls. After the voice message, your call connects normally.

Very much like a software approach to security updates and registrations, and while annoying, if following the instructions is the only way to get rid of the annoyance, you may be suprised at how many people suddenly take the effort.

At least people can't accuse the VOIP companies of not warning them.

The FCC is correct to do this

[jpiggot]

Jesus...I can't believe I'm actually about to agree with the FCC, but here goes...

I know this is a pain for most of you who use voice IP services, but this is actually a pretty reasonable rule. Everyone in America is taught from a very early age to dial "911" if you're in serious trouble. And the FCC has gone to great lengths to make sure that those calls always get connected. Payphones don't charge for them. Cell phones, even if they don't have service established, are supposed to put them through. And now, it's voice IP's time to make sure such calls work.

"You" may be smart enough to know that the call won't go through, or won't be able to access address information for emergency services. But what about the plumber who you (foolishly) left in your house, who has a heart attack and crawls to your phone ? Or your friend, who watches you pass out while eating a cheese doodle ? Is he going to know that you were too lazy to call and register your information ?

If these companies want to provide home telephone service (or something like it) then they should provide the same 911 emergency information that everyone else does. Because it saves lives.

Re:Dialing 911 with VoIP?

[KingSkippus]

If I were really in an emergency, I wouldn't even use a cell phone.

If I were really in an emergency, I would probably use whatever communication method is closest, even if it were a tin can with a string hanging out the end of it.

For real, I have a land line and a cell phone. I don't have a VoIP phone, but I've used them. If I were really in an emergency, I wouldn't hesitate to use any of the three and would only resort to one farther away if my first choice didn't work or if the emergency personnel on the other end specifically requested it. I probably wouldn't even stop to think about it.

Re:Dialing 911 with VoIP?

[JaredOfEuropa]

If I were really in an emergency, I would probably use whatever communication method is closest, even if it were a tin can with a string hanging out the end of it.

That's why I like GSM, and why kept my old GSM phone... On all GSM phones (well, at least in Europe, not sure about the rest of the world), you can dial the emergency number 112, without a subscription or even without a simcard inserted into the phone. Try it... even if a phone is locked by a PIN code, you should be able to enter a PIN of 112 and hit the dial button to call out. As long as the battery is juiced up, you can dial 112.

Re:Dialing 911 with VoIP?

[chrisgeleven]

In the U.S., all cell phones (even ones without plans attached to them) must be able to dial 911.

In theory, someone can take an old cell phone, throw it in the glove compartment of their car, never have to pay a cent, and if they are in an area with coverage they can dial 911 from it if they get in an accident.

An idea,

[deimtee]

One of the points made is that there is sometimes no way to tell the location of a VOIP phone, which is a problem if you are unable to talk.

How about if the VOIP app. insisted that you record a 30 second emergency message (stating your location/name/whatever) when being installed and then watched what numbers you were dialling. If you ever dialled 911, and then if there was more than 20 seconds of dead airtime, began to play the message over and over.

Why don't I understand the big deal?

[CrackedButter]

I'm in the UK and this talk of enabling 911 services on a device seems a little stupid, why don't the phone companies do it for you right away? Why does the customer have to do it? Looking in this thread people mention they have to give an address? Whats the deal with that, they would need an address to get to you in an emergency. Why is this a big deal that every week on slashdot their is a discussion about it? I'm just a non american sitting here scratching my head with confusion and wondering what the hell you americans are playing at! Not trolling, I really want to know.

Re:Why don't I understand the big deal?

[aug24]

Don't call the nice Brit a troll. In case you didn't notice, registering your meatspace co-ords with a VOIP provider won't change the problem you describe, so his point is still well made: they could register the address of the VOIP customer as a first point, and then hassle people to change it when they move.

I reckon the solution will only come with GPS receivers in all handsets, VOIP and cell, myself.

J.

Re:Why don't I understand the big deal?

[TheoMurpse]

The reason is twofold: idealogical and logical.

From an idealogical perspective, the government regulationg internet packets (because that's all VoIP is) is chilling. What's next? Skype? AIM and MSN voice chat? Do those have to call 911 next? You can use Skype to connect to POTS landlines as well. Should Skype be outlawed in the US because it's not subject to the 911 requirement the other companies are using. What about when people choose Skype because it's not regulated, effectively being the FCC causing business to move overseas (Skype is a Luxembourgian company, IIRC).

From a logistical POV, VoIP is portable, so to some people it makes no sense to require E911 registration when the registration information is going to be wrong some of the time.

Of course, I'm still out to lunch on how I feel -- on one hand, I think the FCC regulating IP is chilling, because what program is next? On the other hand, I understand the side that things it's something that should be required of all communications media that can be confused with POTS phones which have 911 by default in most (all?) of the country.

Re:Why don't I understand the big deal?

[jjon]

I'm also in the UK, but I've been following this a bit, so let me explain:

Some Americans are stupid(*). Some stupid Americans will dial 911 on their cellphone, and when asked where they are will respond "right here". This doesn't help the 911 dispatchers send the emergency crews to the right place - they have to explain to the guy at the other end that no, they don't magically know where they are, and please can you give me your address. This can delay sending the emergency crews by a few vital minutes. (From a landline saying "right here" does work, as the 911 operator will have the address onscreen.)

So the US has introduced Enhanced 911 (E911), which basically says that cellphone providers must be able to track their users location when they make a 911 call. This is usually done either by a GPS reciever in the handset or by fairly accurate positioning based on the cellphone signals (i.e. accuracy of a few meters, not just "this cell that covers a whole town").

Now they are noticing that VOIP has similar problems to cellphones, so they are trying to figure out how to make E911 work with VOIP - i.e. how to figure out where someone is when they call 911 on a VOIP phone.

The additional catch is that VOIP is less reliable than traditional telephony, so 911 calls may be lost. People should know this so they can make an informed decision.

IMHO someone calling 999 (our version of 911) on a cellphone and giving their location as "here" deserves a Darwin Award (awarded posthumously for people so stupid that they improve the gene pool by dying). It's not worth everyone spending extra on cellphones just to fix this. It is probably worth associating a "main" address with a VOIP phone, though.

(* Some Americans are really smart, too. I am not a troll).

Re:Why don't I understand the big deal?

[radish]

Unlike in the UK where on calling the emergency services you have to give them your address, in the US there is this thing called E911 where the address is given to the call center automatically (from phone company records). That obviously doesn't work with VoIP as they have no way of knowing where your handset is plugged in at any one time. Personally, having lived in the UK for 28 years and survived to tell the tail (despite having to call 999 a number of times) I don't see what the big deal is, but it does seem to be a big deal to a lot of people.

Re:Why don't I understand the big deal?

[elrous0]

So what address does a stupid American give if they've been kidnapped and thrown in the trunk (boot) of the car? What address does a four year old girl give when she barely knows how to dial 911? What address does a barely conscious victim give after they got carjacked and shot in a strange neighborhood?

-Eric

What we need

[Cytlid]

Is a new 911 system. Duh. Think about it ... the traditional phone monopolies have a hold of the 911 system by the cahones, and they like it that way. And they cannot be too happy about voip, especially stealing their business.

I work for a local company that is both a telephone and data company (I work for the data side). We have a small test voip network. Basically, we threw together all the equipment needed to do voip. And I ported my home number over to it. Can I dial 911? Got me ... so I made sure everyone in the family has cell phones and they know to use them to call 911.

If I remember correctly, 911 is a service we have to subscribe to, which is why customers are footed the bill, and it's a requirement. Why not just change the 911 system? Have someone create an open standard that anyone can link into without a problem. Hell make it based on IP and redundant and better than the current 911 system (not that I know how that works).

Lets turn this from the FCC ruling something that could be the ruling RBOCs' wet dream into making an exsisting system something better. I might just start by writing the FCC myself...

But it already IS up to us

[Kamiza Ikioi]

It already is up to me as a customer. I don't have a landline or VOIP, thus no 911. What would the goverment do, break down my door, and hold me at bay by gun point while they install a giant red telephone for direct 911 access?

Regardless of all the avenues government is trying to act without regard to consumer choices, via the "municipal" services route... the consumer still has a choice in telephony.

Yes, I can refuse 911 service. I do refuse 911 service. Not that I "care" if I had it or not, but I see no reason to pay $20 a month for a phone I would rarely if ever use, just for 911 service. The FCC can force 911 service all they want, but until they can forcibly enter my house (I'd like to see them try!), I won't have 911 service, because I don't have a phone and don't plan on getting one.

If my friend sees me impaled on a knife, he can drive me to the hospital himself. I live closer to my local hospital than the ambulance dispatch center.

Give me a break

[Programmer_In_Traini]

You know, as a VoIP user, I really dont get what the fuss is all about.

I've been using VoIP for about 4-5 months and thats the happiest change I've made in my life ever since they created the condom.

I save truckloads of money each month, I get to be able use my line from anywhere in the world..and tons of other things.

I know that if there's a power outage my phone wont work, I also know about the 911 thing.

Just get a cellphone, we almost all have one anyway. My VoIP always rings on my cellphone and my VoIP line at the same time (a nice feature) so even if there's no power, i still get my calls .... and i can still use my cellphone's 911. ...and...if you make the calculation, my VoIP phone bill + some basic cellphone plan = much cheaper than my regular phone line with the long distance and other crap they always charge at the end of the month.

VoIP is a new technology, we have to give some time to the providers to fix the few bumps it may have.

Anyway...

Re:America==Monopoly capitalism/golden rule/lotter

[Midnight Thunder]

I don't think the telcos chose to have 911, rather the FCC forced them to support it. They also forced the cell phone companies. Why should it be any different for VoIP?

When providing services of a certain type there will be requirements that you need to adhere to.

Re:I would get voip but

[ryanov]

Is that really true? I don't think so. When my service has been disconnected in the past, it was DISCONNECTED -- ie. old phone, non-cordless, blow into it: nothing. Maybe phones without a dialtone might dial 911, but I'm not sure even about that.

This is complete BS

[acoustix]

The FCC gave cell phone providers over 10 years to figure out 911 services. Now they want VoIP companies to do the same thing in 10 months? You would think that the FCC, of all government agencies, would understand the problems that VoIP has to overcome.

-Nick

Assisted GPS is in every cell phone.

[dmd]

Actually, every last cell phone currently sold in the US has GPS. The vast majority of them don't let the user (easily) access location data, though, and for good reason - they're not true always-on GPS devices.

The phones use Assisted GPS, which require communication with and resources of the nearest tower. Essentially, the way AGPS works is that when the phone wants to know its location (typically because E911 has requested it), it asks the tower for help. The tower - which has a real GPS with a good fix and ephemeris data - tells the phone which satellites to listen for, and asks the phone to reply to the tower with what it's hearing, timestamped with the phone's received time information. The tower then takes the set of pseudorandom streams that the phone has relayed and the tower computes a location solution.

It's a very clever way of (a) offloading most of the work to the tower, thus making it much cheaper to build GPS into all phones, and (b) making it possible for GPS fixes to be obtained in very minimal conditions - even inside buildings - because another receiver, one that does have a full view of the sky, and ephemeris data, is giving assistance.

Re:I would get voip but

[TheZax]

Once they address this then I will probably look into it again.

Then it is time to look into it again. Vonage is rolling out E911 which provides your address and callback number to the closest dispatch center, much like a regular phone.

If E911 is not available in your area yet, calling 911 on your Vonage phone will at least get forwarded to the closest 911 Operator to your home (or whatever you filled in on Vonage site).

So have a look, my experience with Vonage has been nothing but positive.

Re:Dialing 911 with VoIP?

[Anonymous Coward]

"what would you do in the event that lightning struck your demarc outside our house and in the process frying all your landlines and catching your house on fire? How about if a tornado ripped up the telephone pole where your copper terminates? Or a burglar cuts your lines hoping to kill your security system?"

You know, I hate people that rattle off "what if" questions like you just did. What if you get killed by driving to work today? What if your computer monitor blows up? What if... what if... shut the fuck up.

Good God. It's like you're just trying to make yourself look like an asshat, and you're doing a good job of it, might I add.

If there is a tornado close enough to rip up your phone lines, STAY THE FUCK OFF THE PHONE. If your house is on fire, GET THE FUCK OUT. Are you stupid? Would you really stand around in your living room and call 911 while half of your house is on fire or it's tornado season and there is a F5 down the block?

You know, you should stop being curious if all you can come up with are stupid questions.

It's all a scam.

[Kamiza Ikioi]

Well, imho, the phone companies are a joke, which is why I don't want/need a phone. I've had a few people give me strange looks when I tell them I don't have a phone. It's about as unimaginable as someone without a TV. (I have a TV, rarely watch it, and when I do, it's CNN, History, TLC, Discovery, or SciFi.)

Someone said I could reach 911 on a disconnected line. Yeah, maybe, if I had a phone plugged in. But, unlike a phone subscriber, I don't pay that emergency "tax" subscribers get on their monthly bills (along with all the other ridiculous taxes). If it's a public service, why isn't there a flat tax for it regardless of subscribership?

As for how I would explain to an Arson investigator if my house burnt down because of no phone... In the future, could not having a phone could be a crime? I don't think the poster intended it that way, but think about it. That's a scary idea.

But, to answer the question, AFAIK, the advice is not to call 911 from your own house if it is on fire. Priority #1 is to get everyone in the building and yourself out. Thus, it doesn't matter if your home has 911, but if your neighbor does. Does that make me a bad neighbor? I suppose in a way. Then again, if it's that vital, why aren't 911 enabled phones readily available on every other street corner?

Ah, they used to be (payphones). Then came the cellphone, and everyone not able to pay the high cellphone charges watched as payphones became rarer. If 911 was so vital of a service, why did its public/free availability shrink merely due to increasing shareholder value. It's a scam, that's why. It was always about shareholder profits. This idea that 911 is a must have, but is only obtainable by subscribing to overpriced services. What's next, to get medical care at a hospital, I have to subscribe to the local newspaper? Fire trucks only for those who have memberships to the local golf club? Police only take stolen vehicle reports if you are an AAA member?

And, yet, somehow, I'm the bad guy for not buying into the idea by purchasing a service I don't need or want.

voice-interrupt for affirmative acknowledgement

[davidwr]

The next time a VoIP customer tries to call a non-VoIP number, have the VoIP provider intercept the call with an annoying message saying "The FCC wants you to know that VoIP 911 services are not the same as land line 911 and may not work in an emergency. The FCC requires that we tell you and that you acknowledge that we have told you. To repeat this announcement, press 1, to acknowledge that you heard it and continue your call, press 2."

This meets the "affirmative acknowledgement" requirement.